Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Seth, how are you?
Seth: I'm so excited.
David: You're so excited.
Seth: Jonah 2.
David: Jonah 2.
Seth: In the belly of the fish.
David: Let's go.
Seth: I'm, I mean, I'm just really excited.
David: I'm excited too. There's some, we got some mythical things to talk about today.
Seth: W- Mythical is the right word.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so Jonah 2.
David: Yeah.
Seth: As we've said a, a couple times, j- the Book of Jonah is not about a fish.
David: Yep.
Seth: But this next chapter takes place inside the belly of the fish.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the fish and Jonah are about more than a fish and Jonah.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: I mean, Jesus tells us this-
David: Okay
Seth: ... 'cause he said it is a sign-
David: Ah
Seth: ... that points to him.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: But it's also about-
David: So that's a good place to start
Seth: ... [laughs] that's a good place to start. Jesus tells us-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that it's more about a fish, and then, and more about Jonah, it's about Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: But it's also about Israel and her place in God's plan for the universe.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So-
David: Well, that sounds fun.
Seth: I'm excited.
David: That's good. Well, we wanna also welcome our YouTube audience. Uh-
Seth: Hello again.
David: Yeah. We, uh, we are streaming this one on YouTube as well. Normally, it's just me and Seth in a room with no cameras around.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to celebrate half a million downloads of the Spoken Gospel podcast, we are deciding to, uh, air this four-part episo- ep- four episode, part four-part series, that's the word I'm looking for-
Seth: A series
David: ... on the Book of Jonah. So we're thankful you're here. Also thankful for all of you listening on the podcast. Um, so Jonah-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... has just been swallowed by a fish.
Seth: Fish. Not a whale.
David: Not a whale.
Seth: A fish.
David: A fish.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and he prays from the depths.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So most of chapter two is a prayer. It's him praying to God for what seems like some sort of salvation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It ki- could feel like a complaint-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in a lot of the words that he uses, but it's really just very Psalm-like.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's a lot of Psalms. He even quotes one. He quotes from Psalm 42:7. Um, um, he, he, "Your billows and your waves have passed over me."
David: That seems appropriate. [laughs]
Seth: It's, it looks like it, it literally happened to me.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's li- I'm, I'm reading the Book of Psalms, God, and I'm in it.
David: I'm there.
Seth: Literally.
David: Did he take his-
Seth: Not metaphorically
David: ... did he take his thin Line NIV pocket Bible with him?
Seth: I would assume he memorized it as-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... even as a faithless prophet of God-
David: He had to. [laughs]
Seth: ... he memorized that one. [laughs] But yeah, it kinda just feels like a Psalm. He's describing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... his woes to God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, and he is crying from the belly of Sheol-
David: Right
Seth: ... which is a way of talking about the realm of the dead.
David: Okay.
Seth: The belly of death.
David: Whoa.
Seth: Um-
David: We've already opened up so many categories.
Seth: Yeah. There's a lot here. So it's a Psalm-
David: Yep
Seth: ... about his predicament in the belly of the fish that's more, it's about more than being in the belly of the fish.
David: Okay. So let, let's, let's back up for a second-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and say how he got here.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because how he got here and what's now happening seem very disjointed to me.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because if, if you listened to the last episode, we talked about how Jonah is not the good guy in this story, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he was running from the voice of God, did not want God to show mercy to those whom God wanted to show mercy to, um, was passive, uh, for taking blame for the storm on the boat-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then maybe even was asked to be thrown into the sea, not out of, um, altruism, but even maybe he was suicidal. He would rather have died than-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to have seen Assyria saved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And all of the sudden then, he's this paragon of faith, praying from the belly of a fish and having all this faith in God, and what?
Seth: Well, I mean, just because somebody prays doesn't make them a great person. [laughs]
David: There's no atheists in foxholes. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] I mean, I think that's, I mean, you're right. Wait, I thought he was this terrible person.
David: Right.
Seth: Why is he praying?
David: Right.
Seth: I think that's a legitimate point to people who wanna paint Jonah a little bit more positively.
David: Mm.
Seth: Don't we have him saying at the end of this prayer, "Salvation belongs to the Lord"?
David: Mm.
Seth: Yeah, he's not f- he, he knows what he's, he's a prophet of God. He's a pro-
David: Right. He knows his Bible.
Seth: He knows his Bible. He's allowed to pray.
David: Mm.
Seth: But that doesn't necessarily tell us anything about his character. Demons said that Jesus was the Christ. [laughs]
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: It doesn't really tell us anything about their character, the fact that he's praying.
David: Okay. So I think that makes sense. So can I word it this way?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Would it, would it be fair to say that at the very least, this is an honest prayer for salvation, but he's doing it on behalf of himself?
Seth: Yeah.
David: He was sent to, to go save other nations, and he was faithless, but to save himself, he knows how to be faithful.
Seth: Yeah. He, he can ask for mercy for himself, yes.
David: This is a genuine, like, all-out prayer-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and he means every word of it, but it is for himself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is an irony, because he was supposed to be praying and advocating, interceding for the nations-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and he failed to do so.
Seth: And he, uh, let me just read a couple lines-
David: Okay, okay
Seth: ... about like, let's, let's lean into the sincere part-
David: All right
Seth: ... of this prayer. "I called out to the Lord out of my distress, and he answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol, out of the belly of the de- of death, I cried, and you heard my voice. For you ca- for you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the sea, and the flood surrounded me." And then he quotes Psalm 42, "Your billows and your waves pass over me. I'm driven away from your sight. But again, I shall look upon your holy temple." So-This is Solomonic.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like this is exact- feels just like the Psalm. The Psalm is David, a faithful king, prays to God, explains his circumstances, explains him being persecuted by Saul as being in the belly of death or, you know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on the verge of death. And he says, "But I know my God is faithful."
David: Right. Like, why, why is it important that this is pulling on the Psalms tradition?
Seth: Oh.
David: You know? Like, why is that important here?
Seth: I don't know.
David: Is that heightening the irony?
Seth: Perhaps.
David: That, like, the songs of ascent, the songs for deliverance, the, the songs of lament-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he's pulling on all of those, um, but doing them in a more selfish way? Or is it supposed to, are we supposed to see it that it's even to a faithless Jonah-
Seth: Mm
David: ... God is, uh, offensively merciful 'cause he'll, he will he- hear this prayer and save him?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, why is it important that he prays Psalms?
Seth: I don't know.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I haven't asked that question. Why, like, why... Well, maybe the more interesting question is why did Jonah decide to write his prayer as a Psalm?
David: Mm.
Seth: I don't know if that's more interesting.
David: Right.
Seth: But this, that's what made me think. I think maybe it's just the com- it could just be the common way that the prophets and leaders of Israel-
David: This is how people prayed
Seth: ... this is how people prayed.
David: Right.
Seth: This is how they recorded their thoughts and wrote it down. Obviously, Jonah is incredibly well orchestrated and organized and very thoughtful.
David: Mm.
Seth: So it makes sense to me that Jonah would write a prayer based on the Psalms that he-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he knew and grew up around.
David: Yeah, I also have heard someone say, um, like, why was Jesus quoting Psalms on the cross? You know?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, I get that he was-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... fulfilling prophecy.
Seth: Right.
David: I get that. But I heard one person say, I'm not advocating it or not, but it's just like, man, whenever you're in total distress-
Seth: Mm
David: ... um, the things that are just memorized-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that you don't have to think about just flow out.
Seth: Right.
David: You're gonna pray very old, almost cliche prayers-
Seth: Mm
David: ... whenever you can't think of anything original. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, oh, maybe he's just pressed down and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... nothing, nothing else can come to mind-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's very original, so he's just starts pulling on all his psalms. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh-
Seth: I think that's pa- it could be part of it.
David: Yeah. I don't know.
Seth: I also think, again, like, Jonah is faithful to Israel. He's faithless towards God-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but he still has hope for himself and for his people. He still hopes that God would be faithful to Israel, preserve her national identity, make sure Assyria is judged for her evil, and he hopes that God will be faithful to his promises to Israel and probably to say to Israel alone.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he is a faithless prophet because he refuses to be a prophet to all the nations-
David: Right
Seth: ... and to preach God's blessing to all the nations, but he's still a prophet.
David: Mm.
Seth: He still has enough knowledge about what God is like to ask for mercy, even if he's unwilling to extend it to other people.
David: Right. I mean, it is interesting to compare his repentance-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the Psalm with the r- other two... Oh, sorry. This isn't repentance. Sorry.
Seth: Yeah, he never repents. He's-
David: His prayer.
Seth: His prayer.
David: Let me rephrase.
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: It's interesting to compare his prayer with those-
Seth: Mm
David: ... uh, of repentance, uh, of the sailors and what we'll see at, in the, in the Assyrians.
Seth: That's right. The p-
David: Be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause they're short or un- unnamed almost.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, the Assyrian doesn't even know God's name.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He just uses Elohim. He doesn't know the covenant name of God, of Isr- of the God of Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and i- and it just, like, they're very unceremonious, but they're-
Seth: Mm
David: ... completely heartfelt.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And his follows all the right-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, um, rules-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for a good Israelite prayer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's pulling on the Psalms. It's l- it's like a high prayer. You know, it's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... a priestly prayer. It's a Davidic prayer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, it's the right prayer to pray. And-
Seth: That's interesting
David: ... you know?
Seth: Right.
David: And, and compare that, 'cause if we're supposed to compare Jonah and the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Gentiles the whole time-
Seth: Right
David: ... then let's compare their prayers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: His are, like, super awesome.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he ends up kind of being the bad guy [laughs] in the story.
Seth: It reminds me of the story of the-
David: The Pharisee
Seth: ... the Pharisee and the tax collector.
David: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Seth: Thank God I'm not like these people.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then what did Jesus say? "Don't come to me with long prayers like the Gentiles do."
David: Right.
Seth: Just come to Father.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Heavenly Father.
David: Have mercy on me, a sinner.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is very similar to what the Assyrian will pray.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it is interesting-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that... So are you, do you think that this... I think a lot of people come to this prayer and assume this is evidence he's a good guy.
David: Right.
Seth: More... Like, right? But it seems like you're saying, like, no, no, no. Like, it seems to, what we know of him so far ca- this can't be sincere. This can't be evidence that he's had a change of heart. Do you think he's had a change of heart? What do you think is happening in this Psalm?
David: I don't know. The hard part is when we open up chapter three-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we're gonna see that the, God gives him his call again, and he goes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Now he goes very half-heartedly.
Seth: Yes.
David: He does not go well. He does not obey well.
Seth: By the time he gets there, he preaches a five-word sermon-
David: Right
Seth: ... in Hebrew.
David: Yes.
Seth: So he, he, he... And doesn't preach mercy or grace. He just said, "In-"
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "40 days, Nineveh will be overturned."
David: Yeah. Um, yeah.
Seth: That's it.
David: And so it, it doesn't seem like a big change of heart. In fact, I think we'll talk about this in chapter three, there's a way to read that prayer that is n- probably not the message that God wanted him to give at all.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, but God uses it ironically.
Seth: Anyway.
David: So maybe not. Maybe he hasn't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... had a change of heart. I don't know. Uh, it doesn't, it doesn't sou- he doesn't apologize for anything.
Seth: No.
David: He-
Seth: He complains about... He says God is his hope.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He says God is his salvation, and he knows that he's down in the dumps.
David: Yeah. He is, he knows that God is still sovereign.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? I mean, he's trying to run away from his temple i- in chapter one.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? 'Cause he knows that he's strong and powerful. Uh, when God finds him in the storm, he knows that if he gets thrown into the sea, the storm will stop because he believes God controls the storm, and then God sends the fish, and he knows who sent the fish. God did.So like he he's a Hebrew.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know what I mean? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like he's not faithless, he's not godless and so for him to pray a prayer of help me, God, get me out of this fish, um, doesn't necessarily mean that he's repentant.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, but it is interesting. I think what's more interesting now that I'm thinking about it is that a second ago he had a death wish-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and now he wants to live.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the bigger transformation.
Seth: Right. He wanted to-
David: And then he's gonna wanna die again in chapter four. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, which part of me just feels like that's so human.
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: Like I, God, I would rather die than preach the gospel to the Assyrians. Okay, I didn't really mean it, God.
David: Really mean it. This, this really sucks in here.
Seth: Like I really don't like the fact that seaweed is wrapped around my head-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... at the roots of the mountain and the land, the bar is the land closing. [laughs] Like, okay, God-
David: This, the, the reality of death is not as cool as I-
Seth: I would like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I would like some resurrection now.
David: Can I get out please?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think that's interesting.
David: Yep.
Seth: I think maybe what would help us here is verse seven. So verse seven feels out of place to me. So in a, um, not verse seven, sorry-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, but verse eight in-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in, I guess verse seven and eight, but you have the Psalm asking God for help and then in verse eight you have, uh, seven, Jonah comparing himself as a faithful person. "When my life was failing, I remembered you, Lord, and my prayer came to you into your holy temple."
David: Mm.
Seth: "But those who pay regard to vain idols, they forsake their hope of steadfast love. But I, with the voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you."
David: Mm.
Seth: Okay. He's in the belly of a fish. He's making promises of future sacrifices.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's saying so far that the people who have offered sacrifices and have made vows like he's promising to, forfeit God's mercy and love.
David: Or don't forfeit.
Seth: They-
David: What are you saying?
Seth: They, he is saying, "Those who pay regard to vain idols, they forsake their hope of steadfast love."
David: Right.
Seth: He's saying pagans don't deserve God's mercy.
David: Right.
Seth: I'm like, okay, but we know pagans just received God's mercy.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right? The sailors-
David: Right, yeah
Seth: ... in the boat.
David: Up above.
Seth: They made vows, they made sacrifices, they received God's mercy.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He is promising to do something in the future and saying it's impossible for pagans to do something that's already happened, and something that we're t- never told he does.
David: Mm.
Seth: S- do, I, I think I just confused myself, but does that make sense?
David: Yeah, what you're saying is, he's saying that people who worship Yahweh-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... deserve salvation. Those who worship idols forsake all hope of salvation.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What's fascinating is he's the one in the belly of the fish-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and pagans are the ones-
David: Saved
Seth: ... exper- saved on the, on the shore.
David: [laughs] Yes.
Seth: S- it's really interesting.
David: It's hilarious. [laughs]
Seth: It's hilarious, and then God in response to all this vomits him on the shore.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's the prayer and what happens here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Why is this in the book might be the best question to answer.
David: Why is this prayer in the book?
Seth: Why, what are we as readers making all these connections to Israel at that time?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why is this prayer recorded in the book that seems kind of half-hearted, seems to admit that God could rescue, but still holds out some like animosity towards the pagans?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Why is this in the book?
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, we have to go back to what we set up a little bit i- uh, last week in, in chapter one, which is who is reading this book whenever it was coming out? You know, like what was the audience of this, of this book-
Seth: Mm
David: ... thinking and experiencing when they were reading it? And we have to remember that the, the people eating this book up-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and who it really seems to have in mind in its aim and intention were the Jews living in exile. That you had the Assyrian army came and conquered n- the northern 10 tribes of Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... just called Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then-
Seth: And remember, Nineveh is the capital of Assyria
David: ... of which, and that's this story.
Seth: That's this story.
David: That is with these people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but this is, but the story happens before Assyria ends up coming and completely conquesting Israel. Uh, but then you have years later Babylon coming and taking Jerusalem over-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, and the two tribes there, the southern kingdom. And, um, you, you can imagine, um, reading this story, we've talked about reading this story would be really offensive, is what we talked about last week-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... if you were in exile, uh, because you're like-
Seth: You're in a-
David: You're-
Seth: You're in a Syrian death camp.
David: Right.
Seth: God's gonna show mercy to my captors?
David: No, I don't want that to happen.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. It's like, uh, Babylon just completely wrecked the temple, and now God's gonna save them for it. It's like, wait, what? No.
Seth: Mm.
David: That's super offensive. Um, but there's something else going on here that we have to jump deep into the waters of the Old Testament-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to kind of understand. And that-
Seth: Wait
David: ... yeah.
Seth: So before you jump then-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so what you're saying is that Jonah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the belly of the fish is like Israel in exile.
David: Yeah. That's where I... Uh, those are the deep waters I'm about to jump in.
Seth: Oh, that's the, that's, that's the issue.
David: That's the deep water.
Seth: So, so that's-
David: Yeah, but that's the easiest way to say it right there.
Seth: Yes.
David: Say it again.
Seth: So Jonah in the belly of the fish is a metaphor for or a picture of-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Israel in the belly of exile.
David: Yes. I haven't proven that point yet.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, but yes, that's where we're going.
Seth: And you just... But in the story so far-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you have a character who's supposed to be the prophet of Israel hating God's enemies, but is supposed to be a purveyor of the covenant of Abraham to bless the nations.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So it's like you have like in the story itself seeds of this idea-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that Jonah is a type of Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... failing to extend mercy to the nations they know God wants to save.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: So now what we have to see is there are two main metaphors that w- if you were a Hebrew reader, especially one in exile, you, y- your alarm bells would be going off knowing-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that Jonah in the belly of the fish proves that that is you in exile.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that, number one, is the going down. To go-
Seth: Oh
David: ... to go down is to be away from the temple. And he keeps talking-
Seth: Oh, right
David: ... about the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He keeps saying, "I will again see your temple." I mean, if you were-
Seth: Mm
David: ... a, a, a Jew in exile-You know, like, and the temple's been destroyed
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: To see a prayer that says, "I will again look at your temple"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is a huge faith-filled prayer
Seth: Right
David: Because there's not even a temple
Seth: Right
David: It's not, it's gotta be-
Seth: Right
David: ... rebuilt, and then God's presence has to fill it again
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: And so, like, that's a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's a huge thing
Seth: Right. Yeah
David: So they, so as Jonah goes down and down and down and down, away from the up, which is Israel-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... which is the temple of God, he's getting farther and farther away, well, they are, we're told in the Old Testament that they go down into exile
Seth: Mm, that same word, down
David: Same word
Seth: Yes
David: They go down into exile
Seth: Mm
David: And, um, what, the point that is being made here in the fish is that the, um, distance is exacerbated in this story-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in that you guys crossed a few geopolitical lines over to Babylon-
Seth: Right
David: ... from Israel. What if we took somebody into the utter darkness at the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... bottom of the depths of the ocean, where still today-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the most unexplored territory on Earth-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the ocean. And like, and what, and then, and so that, that's, that's one, is like, oh, man, if God is-
Seth: That's insane
David: ... if, if I can-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... pray from Go- if Jonah can pray from God in the belly of the fish at the bottom of the ocean, I can pray to God when I'm down in the belly of exile
Seth: It's a prayer, it's supposed to be a hopeful chapter in this book. It's like-
David: Yeah, for, yeah, exactly right
Seth: ... just as Jonah was vomited out of the fish-
David: Yes
Seth: ... from death-
David: Right
Seth: ... the realm of Sheol-
David: Right
Seth: ... you can be vomited out of-
David: Yes
Seth: ... uh, Assyria
David: But yeah, that, that's the hope of verse 10
Seth: Of Babylon. Yeah
David: The, the, the call to, to Israel in, in verses two to nine is to pray
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: [laughs] Uh, is to, to hold out faith, to be faithful, to beckon and, and beg God to act again
Seth: Yeah
David: And they are given Solomonic prayers all throughout-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... especially the last 50, uh, like the, the, uh, prayers-
Seth: Passage of the Psalms, yeah
David: ... the Psalms, um, the, like, and even more-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like that, that are calling them back into the land, that were written in exile
Seth: Yeah
David: And so maybe that's a reason why it was written as a Psalm-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is to be like, "You guys have Psalms to pray in exile."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Pray them."
Seth: So you're s- so I love this idea of going down-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... being a picture of J- Israel going down into exile
David: Right. That's, that's one proof that it's Babylon
Seth: And so the other proof is that it's a fish
David: Yeah, and what kind of fish? Yeah
Seth: Um, so let me just go with fish-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then we'll expand from there
David: Great
Seth: So when other prophets describe the exile of Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they describe it like a swallowing by a monster of the deep
David: That's right
Seth: So Amos 9:3, so a contemporary-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of Jonah, son of Amittai, he says, "They, um, though they hide from my eyes at the bottom of the sea, there I will command my pe- my serpent to bite them"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: So he imagines Israel's disobedience, the disobe- Israel trying to hide from God at the bottom of the sea, which is maybe what Jonah was trying to do-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and God says, "No, even there I will bite them with my serpent"
David: Yep. E- yeah, put them in my mouth
Seth: Yep. Is what happened to, to Jonah. [laughs] In Jeremiah 34, this is how he describes Babylon's devouring of Israel. "Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, has devoured us. Like a serpent he has swallowed us and filled his stomach with our delicacies and then has spewed us out"
David: Yes
Seth: And then in 2 Chronicles, just historically, when the king of Assyria came to Israel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... one, the Assyrian army's god was named Dagon, and it was half-fish-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and so much of their, like, battle warfare was around fish imagery
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: So when they come to Israel, they take a giant fish hook-
David: Right. I forgot about this
Seth: ... throw it through-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the king's nose and drag him out of Israel like a fish
David: Mm.
Seth: And apparently, the Assyrian army would do this as a matter of course and take the, the big fish hook and poke it through the n- the throat, not the throat, but the bottom of the chin and-
David: Mm
Seth: ... out through their mouth-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and drag them like a, like fish in a net. So like, this is, like, all imagery used to describe Assyria
David: Yeah
Seth: So the point here-
David: The point
Seth: The, the point-
David: The sharp, the sharp-
Seth: The sharp, uh, sorry, the, the point-
David: The fish hook
Seth: ... was, like, the idea that Jonah is Isr- is representative of Israel in exile-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is n- is backed up by all the prophets
David: Yes
Seth: They all imagine Assyria or, uh, the exile being, like, a swallowing by a great fish-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and that even the, the nation of Assyria is like a giant fisherman-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... bringing them out of the water
David: Yes. Yeah, you're absolutely right. This is the prophetic image that has been set up by all the prophets that Jonah is now incarnating [laughs] in himself.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So yeah, we're, we're, we're supposed to see Israel in exile when we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... see Jonah in the fish
Seth: Yeah
David: And so if you've ever wondered-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... why on earth did God send a fish to swallow Jonah, why is a man in a fish in the Bible at all?
Seth: Mm.
David: It's this very reason. And so, like, it's-
Seth: What's the reason?
David: That is, 'cause it's a picture of Israel-
Seth: Ah
David: ... in exile
Seth: Ah, I thought you were gonna go a different direction
David: We'll get to the craziness
Seth: The, uh, the picture, which, 'cause God being in control?
David: Oh, no. I thought, yeah
Seth: But, uh, yes
David: But yeah, I just wanna, I wanna flag, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a- anytime you're weirded out by this story, or if anyone-
Seth: It's like-
David: ... has ever, like, why-
Seth: Your Bi- your Bible is not weirded out by it. Yeah
David: Yeah. It's like, no, it's actually, your Bible's being very consistent-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that this is a lived parable-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, of a prophetic metaphor-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that Isr- uh, Israel's prophets always said that Israel's going to be taken into exile-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and that will be like being swallowed by a fish
Seth: Yeah
David: And so now you have Israel-In Jonah-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... being swallowed by a fish.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's, that's the deal.
Seth: That's it.
David: Yeah. And so, uh, but yeah, it's also to show... Well, let's stay on fish real quick.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because there's a bigger theme being-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... being like-
Seth: Does this go back to Jesus?
David: Oh, oh, I mean, I was going back to Genesis.
Seth: Oh yeah, we can go there too.
David: Uh, but yes.
Seth: So in Genesis-
David: Yes
Seth: ... I think I know where you're going with this.
David: Yes.
Seth: I have not succeeded in predicting where you're going [laughs] so far.
David: No, but, but I bet you'll get this one.
Seth: But I think... So whenever God creates the waters-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the first thing He creates-
David: The first creature He creates, right?
Seth: Yep, the first creature... Uh, He makes the world-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and the first creature He creates is the great fish.
David: The great sea creature.
Seth: This, and it's not fishies.
David: No, it's-
Seth: Not-
David: ... singular, right?
Seth: It's singular-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it's the- the sea monsters.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: He creates, like, Leviathan.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, He creates the sea- the sea creature.
David: The sea creature.
Seth: The most powerful force in the ocean-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the first thing He creates.
David: Right, and that is very, um, intentional-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Genesis because all the other creation myths of that day, you had, um, whatever god was creating, going to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... create the world or be sovereign over it or whatever, or exerting his dominance, he had to go first do battle with the sea creature.
Seth: That's right.
David: And it was in conquering the sea creature, in subduing it or putting it in its place or whatever, that he then had the right to, uh, bring peace to the chaotic waters-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the world and establish an inhabitable place.
Seth: So the first thing God does-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... is make the sea-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... where the chaotic sea monster lives, and then creates the sea monster.
David: Yeah. He doesn't battle him.
Seth: Pr-
David: He made him.
Seth: He ma- yeah, it's like, and He makes it, period.
David: Period.
Seth: Done.
David: Done.
Seth: The gods of the world have nothing on Him.
David: Right. So then go back to what you were saying about God being in control.
Seth: Right.
David: That's the whole point-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is that God doesn't have to do battle with the sea creature. The sea creature obeys God.
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's right.
David: It's under God's command.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so He prepares-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the word in Jonah here, the sea, the sea monster, the Leviathan, to go and grab Jonah up. Why?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because it's God's servant-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is just cool.
Seth: Yeah. This-
David: Which is also ironic in a sense.
Seth: Why?
David: Because, uh, you have Jonah, a chosen prophet of God, who does not obey, but-
Seth: Oh
David: ... Leviathan does.
Seth: Oh. [laughs]
David: [laughs] It's like the great sea creature which no one can subdue-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... simply obeys God.
Seth: Right.
David: But Jonah, little prophet, won't?
Seth: Mm.
David: It's like total irony.
Seth: That's really interesting.
David: Anyway.
Seth: And to back up this understanding of this giant sea monster emblematic of the chaos-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the world, that's how Jesus refers to this story in Matthew 12.
David: Yes.
Seth: He doesn't ca- he, he calls it, some authors will put the word fish in Jesus' mouth-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but not Matthew. He uses the word kratos.
David: Right.
Seth: Which is the word monster, the creature.
David: So crazy.
Seth: And the idea he's pulling on is that the fish isn't just about a fish.
David: Right.
Seth: It's about God's control over the chaotic mass that has come against His people. And in Jesus' day, the kratos was Rome.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In Jonah's day, the kratos was Assyria.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: In the creation of the world, the mythological kratos was all the other gods that God subdues-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by creating-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the kratos.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, the point is, God is in control in the middle of the beast of chaos-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and He can redeem His people out of it.
David: That's right. And so, and that's the point, uh, is if you were the, if you were Israel in exile at this point, if you were a Jew in Babylon or in Israel and Assyria, and you're reading this story, this story comes to you, and you are in the belly of the beast.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You have been swallowed by Assyria. You have been swallowed by Babylon. You are there, and, like, you are literally surrounded by Sheol, the grave.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Death is surrounding you. You are cut off from the temple, cut off from God, cut off from your land. There's no hope. Like, you feel like verse, uh, verse 8, that you, you have-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... forever been forsaken from hope in God's steadfast love. And Jonah comes to you in this strange, mixed bag of, [laughs] of Jonah 2 and says, "Hey, no matter who you are-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... even if you've been running from God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, even if you haven't been the ideal I-
Seth: Yes
David: ... Isr- Israelite, you know, like Jonah-
Seth: Even if you are swallowed by chaos itself
David: ... and then, y- yeah, and then even if you are a terrible person and you've been swallowed by chaos itself out in Babylon and in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Assyria, you can still pray for deliverance.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you have a whole grab bag of prayers to do so with.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The Psalms.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Pray the Psalms back to me, and I will hear."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then verse 10, what is the promise? The promise is an ironic one. It's that the, the fish comes and vomits-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Jonah back out on the land.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's ironic because it is God who originally vomited Israel out of the Promised Land-
Seth: In-
David: ... in fulfillment of, uh, of a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of a covenant He made in Leviticus.
Seth: Yeah, in Leviticus 18, we're told that if Israel disobeys God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like Jonah disobeyed Him
David: ... like Jonah did. [laughs]
Seth: Right. They will be vomited out of Israel and into exile.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It uses the word vomited. So the fact that you have the sa- a disobedient representative Jew, Israelite, Jonah-
David: Swallowed by an- another nation, uh-
Seth: And then-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but vomited out into resurrection, it's actually a picture of hope, that out-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the nation, the, the chaotic waters of Assyria or Rome or disobedience, God can bring resurrection and bring them out again-
David: Right
Seth: ... even the disobedient.
David: And I think it's also, it's not only hope, it's also a commission-
Seth: Mm
David: ... because the, the, the, the prophets not only predicted the day when Israel would go into exile, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: They, they did, but then they also predicted their homecoming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they would come back.
Seth: Oh, I see.
David: And who would come with them?The nations
Seth: The nations would come with him
David: That, that they were exiled in.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They would come and worship too. And so Jonah is this prototypical fulfillment-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of Israel's prophets. Like, that he-
Seth: Mm
David: ... would go, be vomited out into the land-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the Assyrians-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... preach the good news-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and that they would repent and come back with him to the temple.
Seth: Hmm.
David: That's not how the story shakes out.
Seth: But that's the hope-
David: That's the hope
Seth: ... it represents.
David: And so if you were a Jew in exile reading this story, you, you would, you would go, "That is my call," is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to not only have hope that God will restore me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that I will be vomited back out of Babylon and put-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... back into Israel, but that I am supposed to do what Jonah was called to do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: To preach-
Seth: Mm
David: ... God's grace to those around me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... even though they're my enemies.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I love the Book Jonah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that already feels very good newsy.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: 'Cause it is good news.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: God's people are not just the Jews, not just Israel, but-
David: Mm
Seth: ... all people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Jesus came first to the Jews so that they might preach the gospel to all nations, and we join in, which is what happened with Simon Bar-Jonah and-
David: Right
Seth: ... Paul and everybody else.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's good news.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: I remember last time, uh, last week, you, you talked about, uh, wanting to talk a little bit more about the three days-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uh, that he was in the fish versus Jesus's three days that he was in the tomb. What did, what do you wanna talk about?
Seth: Well, I mean, so Jesus says that He is a greater sign than Jonah-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and that He, His three days in the belly of the earth, three days under the thumb of Roman power, would be the way that He provides salvation for all people, in the same way that Jonah led to a revival of Nineveh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in, um, uh, led to revival in Nineveh. So I think in the same way that the fish is a sign of coming judgment against those who reject or refuse God's call-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the, uh, I think, I think we have to live with that as a sign of judgment too.
David: Mm.
Seth: We've been talking about God's mercy a lot, so I was just thinking-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... about, like, Jesus's death was a sign of God's judgment against sin.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the same with the swallowing, the fish was a sign of God's judgment against Noah's disobedience, right?
David: Jonah.
Seth: Jonah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jonah's disobedience.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so Jesus's death is a symbol of judgment against our disobedience.
David: Okay.
Seth: Which-
David: I gotta stop there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause I, that threw me for a loop.
Seth: Okay.
David: But I think you're right. So you, you're saying that the whale... Sorry.
Seth: No, the, the whale, the Kratos.
David: The Kratos. [laughs]
Seth: The whale. [laughs]
David: The fish.
Seth: The fish.
David: The fish is a sign of judgment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, because it was-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the prophets that we've been talking about.
Seth: Yeah, Assyria coming and swallowing the nations as a sign of judgment-
David: Is a sign of judgment
Seth: ... for disobedience.
David: I've always thought of the fish as a sign of salvation.
Seth: Oh, it's both.
David: Because he was drowning-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and this fish came and kept him from dying in the water.
Seth: Oh.
David: But in a, in a way, I've never meditated on it being a judgment-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... because for Jonah, what did he wanna do? Not go to Assyria.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He would rather have died than see Assyria come to faith.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Right.
David: And so for God to preserve his life against his will-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and beyond that, take him back in the opposite direction, away from Tarshish-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and back toward Nineveh, and vomit him out on the shores of Nineveh and the Assyrian Empire so that he would be forced to proclaim an ironic message of salvation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is judgment against Jonah.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Jonah is judged by being swallowed by the fish.
Seth: It's a judgment against Israel for failing to live up to their covenant commitments.
David: Right, yeah. I, I get that one.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: But I never thought about it with Joh- it being-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a judgment of Jonah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, so go back to when you were talking about y- when you read this as a kid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You said, you said-
Seth: Story about disobedience.
David: Yeah, you said, "Obey God or you'll be swallowed by a fish." Did you, you actually n- like, had a category in your, in your childhood head-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that, that Jonah being swallowed by the fish was judgment?
Seth: I guess so. I-
David: Man, I, I think I've always thought of it as, like, him being thrown into the water was judgment-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and then the fish was salvation. [laughs]
Seth: Right, yeah. I guess I hadn't thought about that. I've just assumed it was always punishment for disobedience.
David: Weird.
Seth: And, but-
David: I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's both perspectives out there.
Seth: Yeah, and I mean, it's, it is both.
David: It, it's both, and there, and we're gonna see that that's-
Seth: It's salvation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for Jonah from certain death in the ocean.
David: Right.
Seth: It is salvation for Nineveh. It's, but it's also judgment, which is also exactly what the cross of Jesus Christ is.
David: Mm.
Seth: It is both a moment of judgment and salvation. It is a judgment for human evil, but salvation for human sinners.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it's both things simultaneously.
David: Yeah.
Seth: No matter how sinful-
David: Right
Seth: ... no matter how deep into the belly of darkness you are, Jesus saves us-
David: Right
Seth: ... by going into the belly of the fish for us.
David: So that, so yeah, to go back to the point you were making before-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I got my mind blown by the fish being judgment, you were saying that the fish swallowing is judgment.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And since Jesus says, "I too will be swallowed by"-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not Leviathan-
Seth: Right
David: ... right, but the, the power behind-
Seth: Mm
David: ... some kind of evil, chaotic-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... sea monster.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Death itself, sin itself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the evil power in this world itself-
Seth: Right
David: ... will swallow me up, not just into some metaphor of Sheol-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but to the actual depths of the earth-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that He is going into judgment-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in our place.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, which is what was teed up for us in chapter one when-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Jonah was thrown overboard for the sake of the sailors.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Jesus goes into the judgment of our death-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for the s- for our sake.
Seth: Yeah. He goes and does battle with the Kratos.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the way the mythological powers used to depic- depicted. Like, Jesus does that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But he wins.
David: Yeah. I mean, it's amazing. I mean, you, you think about, yeah, the mythological powers used to picture this battle that had to take place to bring life-
Seth: Mm
David: ... where some god, lowercase G god, had to come and do battle with the Kratos.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Had to come do battle with the sea monster in order to bring peace and life-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and vibrancy to the earth. Um, but Jesus knows, and, and we all know that-The ultimate force of evil-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and chaos in the world is death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, death surrounds everything.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's the thing that we're most afraid of. It's the thing that we do the most to avoid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's the, the worst part of any movie, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, and-
Seth: It's the ultimate consequence of sin.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jesus goes and does battle with it, but then He raises up-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is vomited out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the grave in resurrection and wins.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And He now has sovereignty not over a fish or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a sea monster. He is now Lord of the dead.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He now has rule and reign and dominion, not over the depths of the ocean only, but over the grave itself.
Seth: Life. Death and life.
David: Life and death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's awesome.
Seth: I, I [laughs] heard one commentator say like, "Jesus gave death indigestion." [laughs]
David: Jesus gave death indigestion.
Seth: And I [laughs] couldn't stop thinking about it. [laughs]
David: That's so good.
Seth: [laughs] Um, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So three days, three nights in the belly of the fish, He defeats the powers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And He rises up out of it to prove, like Jonah proved to Israel in exile, to prove to us as people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in exile under death and sin, that through Him, there is salvation. In His message-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as in Jonah's message, there is a way to raise up out of our death and return home.
David: Okay. So that's the, that's chapter two.
Seth: I think that's chapter two.
David: All right. I'm still spinning.
Seth: What's great about Jonah is that I feel like... What I love about the shorter books that we do-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that when there's only four chapters, I feel like I can get my whole head around it-
David: Right
Seth: ... and start being like, "I think I understand the way they all flow together."
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, and I love this book because it just plays with so many of your assumptions-
David: Mm
Seth: ... turns things on its head. There's irony upon irony. Like, wait, so does that make, does the double irony make a truth? Like-
David: Right. Oh, yeah, exactly.
Seth: And it's like, I think it does.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And I just love, like, getting lost in it. Um-
David: Oh, man. Okay. So then-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so next week, chapter three will be Jonah's message to the Assyrians and their response.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right. And the... It's, it's, and it's a parallel of chapter one-
David: That's right
Seth: ... of the-
David: Of the sailors on the boat.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. Well, thank you guys for joining us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This has been fun. Excited for chapter three. So we'll see you next week. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]