Seth: [upbeat music] So I think our invitation is fairly similar. It's like read your Bible carefully and know that God is up to something far more than the simple play-by-play of history.
David: Mm.
Seth: The history of Israel is the prototype for the salvation of all of the universe.
David: Yeah.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about Him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We're continuing our look at the Book of Matthew. Seth, how you feeling?
Seth: Man.
David: We finished the talk on genealogies.
Seth: Which one of the most exciting-
David: [laughs]
Seth: I, as we said, I, I don't remember if it was on air or off air.
David: I think it was off air.
Seth: But the best conversation-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... about genealogies that exists on the internet. [laughs]
David: That's right because there's only a few.
Seth: There's only, like, four. [laughs]
David: We think we did a decent job. [laughs] That's really funny. Yeah. Okay.
Seth: Uh, yeah, I'm excited to talk today about Joseph-
David: Joseph
Seth: ... and Mary-
David: Mary and Joseph
Seth: ... uh, and the birth of Jesus.
David: Okay.
Seth: And the way this is Matthew's way of talking about the Books of Genesis-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the beginnings of the Book of Exodus.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Matthew is using the birth narrative of Jesus and the parents of Joseph and Mary to play out, like, the back half of the Book of Genesis and the beginnings of the Book of Exodus.
David: Mm.
Seth: So as we look to read the Old Testament according to Matthew-
David: Right
Seth: ... he sees the Old Testament, the Books of Genesis and Exodus, being replayed in Jesus' parents, Joseph and Mary.
David: Mm. Okay, so we have a genealogy that leads up to this point, and then we have a birth narrative. Is there anything significant about a, like, a birth narrative? 'Cause, like, last time we kinda took a step back and we were like, "What is a genealogy? What role does it play? What expectations of genealogies do we have that need to be subverted?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: What about birth narratives?
Seth: I think a birth narrative functions similarly to a genealogy in that it prepares you for the life of the individual that's being described.
David: Mm.
Seth: So what you expect in a miraculous birth narrative is to have some sense of what this miraculous child will do in the future, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, I think that's part of its function.
David: Yeah. I, I was just... I was remembering back to my old undergraduate days, and, uh, I was remembering that the birth narratives of Jesus were riffing on not only the Old Testament, but also on the birth narratives of-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the lords of the day, Caesar Augustus himself.
Seth: Okay. Okay.
David: And so they would have these miraculous birth narratives with journeys and with gifts being presented and with the hosts of heaven-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, bearing witness to it, and Jesus is subverting all of those-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... as the new kurios, the new lord, the new Caesar of a new kingdom.
Seth: Mm.
David: But what's interesting about that, now that we're trying to read the Old Testament according to Matthew, when we were laser focused on, like, Genesis-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's interesting about that is Genesis itself, the creation, the birth narrative of the world-
Seth: Right
David: ... was riffing on Babylonian myths of the day-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or ancient Mesopotamian myths of the day. And it was basically taking the formula of those old creation narratives, the birth narratives of the universe-
Seth: Of the universe
David: ... and riffing on them to reveal who God is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and flipping them upside down, subverting them. And now it's interesting-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that, well, Caesar was claimed, you know, claimed to be a god, and he has a birth narrative-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... kind of like the universe, and Jesus's birth, much like the creation narrative, is doing the same-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... cultural work-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... in subverting them. So I hadn't thought about that before until sitting here [laughs] right now.
Seth: Yeah. Well, as we go through, uh, the next couple chapters in the Book of Matthew, the idea that a star or a light in the sky-
David: Mm
Seth: ... signals the birth of a king-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is kind of a common-
David: Right
Seth: ... or a somewhat well-established phenomenon for the people in the story. So King Herod is like, "Wait, there's a star?" And the wise men, "There's a star."
David: That must mean-
Seth: "That must mean there's a king."
David: Oh.
Seth: And in the Old Testament, we're told that a star will rise from Judah.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: A scepter will rise, which is in the Book of Numbers, uh, like, this idea that when a star rises, a new leader is rising.
David: Mm.
Seth: So there's this... That idea is pretty well-established in the ancient world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that Jesus is living in, and Matthew's aware of it, and that actually drives part of the drama of the narrative-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... moving forward.
David: So that's just cool as we step into birth narratives.
Seth: Yeah. And so before we get caught up in the birth narrative itself-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... we should probably just place ourselves in the next movement in the text that Matthew wants us to focus on.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it really focuses on Joseph.
David: Mm.
Seth: So starting in chapter 1, verse 18 through 25, Joseph is going to have a dream. There's gonna be an angel that shows up, um, and then Jesus is gonna be born. Joseph is gonna have another dream in a little while, and it's gonna tell him to flee to Egypt. And then Joseph is gonna have a third dream even later, a- with another angel, and it's gonna tell him to go back into Israel, and he's gonna settle in Nazareth.
David: Okay.
Seth: So these three dreams of Joseph kind of, like, give us the structure for everything else that's happening around them.
David: That's pretty cool.
Seth: So and the reason why that's significant is because Joseph, Jesus' father, is supposed to start connecting us back to another Joseph in scripture-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the Joseph of Genesis, who is also a dreamer.
David: A dreamer. Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and so we're, we're playing with the characters and ideas and stories of the Book of Genesis now-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... being repeated in Jesus' life.
David: It makes sense, too, 'cause you have the-... genealogy of the sons of Jacob played out-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... immediately before meeting Joseph and hearing all about his dreams.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So here we have the genealogy of this new Joseph leading to Jesus right before we hear all about his dreams.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he is riffing and-
Seth: Right
David: ... mapping on-
Seth: That's right
David: ... to the Genesis story. We kinda start at the beginning of Genesis in the last episode with the genealogies, but now we're moving through, and we are now at the end of Genesis 'cause all of Joseph's stories are there at the end of Genesis.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then hinging over into the beginning of Exodus, like you said.
Seth: Right. But before we get too far into the latter parts of the Book of Genesis, which we'll get into-
David: Okay
Seth: ... Matthew isn't finished giving us hints that we're still in some new creation moment.
David: Mm.
Seth: So this is how the birth of the Messiah came about. That word birth-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is the word genesis.
David: Oh.
Seth: So [laughing]
David: [laughing] That's awesome.
Seth: So this is the genesis of Jesus the Messiah. So already, just with that one simple word choice, we're not just thinking about a birth narrative. We're thinking about a creation narrative.
David: Okay, so he's priming me to go back to Genesis again-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but not necessarily with a genealogy table of nations in my brain, but with-
Seth: Mm
David: ... creation on the mind.
Seth: Yes.
David: So I should be thinking, all right, creation, page one, first few words, I should be thinking there's nothing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There's emptiness, and I should see God out of nowhere in His Spirit creating everything.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's what I'd be primed for-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in that moment.
Seth: And so at the very beginning of the creation story, the Genesis story-
David: Yes
Seth: ... you have nothingness, and then we're introduced to a woman who has nothingness inside of her.
David: Mm.
Seth: No man has ever come near her. She's a, a virgin.
David: This is Mary.
Seth: She's, represents virginal waters.
David: Mm.
Seth: Complete, total unordered mass of cells, [laughs] you know?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And then what happens? Just as in the creation narrative, the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit hovered over the face of the waters.
David: Yep.
Seth: The Holy Spirit comes onto the belly of Mary-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the womb of Mary and brings new life, recreation from nothing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which I think is fascinating in its own right, but then what happens in the Book of Genesis is that after all of creation is made, God creates Adam.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There is nobody suitable for him, so he puts Adam to sleep, and then when he awakes, he finds his bride and marries her.
David: Right.
Seth: And what happens in this story? After life is formed out of nothing-
David: Out of the womb of the earth
Seth: ... out of the womb of the earth, a man falls asleep-
David: Mm
Seth: ... has a dream, rises up, and takes his new bride.
David: Whoa, that's cool.
Seth: So Matthew-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... has made sure that we understand that in the birth of Jesus and the marriage of Mary and Joseph, we have a retelling in miniature of-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the creation of the world, telling us as readers several thousand years later that whatever's happening with this small family represents the recreation of the world. A new world order is coming from this family.
David: I see. Okay, 'cause I was gonna ask the question, like, w- w- what is, what is Matthew doing here? Is he just being a really good Hebrew writer-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where he is bringing in themes from the Hebrew scriptures to talk about the culmination of everything God is doing? Or is he doing some serious Christological theology here, telling us something about who Jesus is and what he's here to do? And if so, what does that mean?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you've said he's coming to bring a new world order to recreate the world, but, like, I don't, I doubt people in this time, or maybe I'm wrong-
Seth: Right. [clears throat]
David: ... maybe they did. Did they see the world as uncreated or at, like-
Seth: Well-
David: ... needing a new world order? Like, what would a person be thinking reading this? Would they be thinking like, "Wait, what? We don't need to create the world again. What's going on here?"
Seth: Well, I mean, the Old Testament is full of images of, like, a restored, redeemed, renewed-
David: Mm, yeah, you're right
Seth: ... Jerusalem, hills dripping with wine-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or a new mountain of God surrounded by flames. Like, the people of God had always expected some cataclysmic event would happen.
David: Like the day of the Lord or-
Seth: The day of the Lord-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... would come, and on that day, the whole world order would be reestablished, reimagined. Jerusalem would be recreated.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think Matthew is playing on those themes. The idea of a new creation coming, maybe not in those lin- that language-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... was necessarily always used by the prophets, but the idea-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... of returning to some Edenic state-
David: Right
Seth: ... by God's power in the future totally was. And what's interesting here is, like, in Jesus and in this family, God is doing a new work of creation that humanity has never been able to do in the past-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or been able to do on its own. Salvation is literally coming from the Holy Spirit, from the outside-
David: Mm
Seth: ... just as it did. Life is coming from the outside just as it did when God created the world with His own words.
David: I see.
Seth: And God-
David: Yeah, I was gonna ask this. Like, okay-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I get, like, the big, broad-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 30,000 foot, like, we need a new world order-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and all creation's been groaning for things to be remade and get back to Eden, which is, like, really, really cool. Why is that in a birth narrative about a person?
Seth: Right.
David: And I think you've nailed it. It's because Jesus saves. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God will save through this being. He is the agent of recreation.
Seth: Yeah. God's kingdom isn't gonna come through reproduction.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's not gonna come through political power. It's not gonna come through technology. Salvation from human sin specifically, is what Matthew says, will come when God enters the world from outside.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so Mary's womb is like this womb of the world, and her virgin womb, when covered by the Spirit, she's gonna bring order to the chaos that has governed God's people for so long.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's notFrom human ingenuity, human effort, but from God's divine-
David: Right
Seth: ... power coming in from the outside.
David: I've never thought of it like this, but, and I, I hope I don't tiptoe into heresy here.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But sometimes the best news is just right up next to it.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: You know? Uh, there's a Latin phrase that nerds use when they talk about how God created the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? He created it ex nihilo.
Seth: Yes.
David: Out of nothing.
Seth: Out of nothing.
David: And it's interesting to think about the salvation of the universe through Jesus being salvation ex nihilo.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Salvation out of nothing.
Seth: Right.
David: That, like you said, no human ingenuity, no political power, no, uh, progeny-
Seth: Pro- yeah
David: ... or anything like that. It's all... Why is Matthew telling this story? It's to show that God is the one who's doing the saving.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That He is the one, like he did in Abraham and Sarah's story through the mir- miraculous birth of their son, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's now doing another miraculous birth, but completely outside the agency of man.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: For multiple reasons, but for one reason here, to show just like he did in creation, that God is not dependent or in need of anyone to bring out the creation or salvation he has planned.
Seth: Yeah. And that's why Mary's virginity is actually kind of an important point here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because if Jesus was just another human spawn-
David: Right
Seth: ... like another, another offspring of another couple, it wouldn't be salvation from the old way of doing things.
David: Hmm.
Seth: We'd still be tied to the old system of having a son who had a son, who had a son, who one day maybe hopefully be the king.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But no, if, if it's a virgin birth-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God's salvation is coming from the outside and nothing will be able to overcome it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the way that human reproduction has done so in the past. Like symbolically, it's incredibly powerful that Mary is a virgin because it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... proves that what God is doing in this phase is new and different, yes, but also the sin that was attendant with the old way of doing things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... will not have a part in what's to come.
David: Yeah. That's really cool. I've never seen the virginity of Mary, the doctrine of the virginity-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of Mary as g- as good news of, of my own inadequacies. Like, I don't need to add something to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what Jesus has done.
Seth: Right.
David: I can bring the, the virginity of my righteousness. Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: ... my righteousness is just nonexistent [laughs] you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's a virgin before God, and He doesn't need it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He doesn't need me to, uh, be active in that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So just like, that's interesting.
Seth: It is super interesting.
David: The other thing, and I don't know if I'm allowed to leave Genesis 1 and 2 yet-
Seth: Please
David: ... but if I am, I'm like, oh, right over the horizon of Genesis 1 and 2 is another thing that I feel like Matthew might be mapping onto that I've never thought of before, and it's kinda messing with me.
Seth: Okay.
David: Is the story of the Nephilim.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: Because again, right after new creation, you then have the, uh-
Seth: Sons of God
David: ... I, I, yes, the sons of God, a heavenly being coming down-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and having spiritual to physical sexual relations of some kind-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that create offspring-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... that end up being the decreation of the world.
Seth: Hmm.
David: These Nephilim who end up becoming the Anakim of the Philistines-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... the Canaanites, and maybe even Goliath himself, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: They end up being the scourge of God's people that they have to push back.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now you have God himself and the Holy Spirit-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... coming to a daughter of man.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And instead of creating these abominations-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... he creates the Son of God.
Seth: That is interesting.
David: And un-
Seth: I hadn't thought about that either
David: ... undoes the curse of the Nephilim.
Seth: Hmm.
David: Which is like, whoa, [laughs] crazy-
Seth: Right
David: ... stuff happening there.
Seth: Yeah. That's super interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
David: So, um, he's-
Seth: Does it seem like to be out of the question if he's writing the story of Jesus alongside the story of Genesis and we do have a s- a strange spirit physical birth-
David: Right
Seth: ... that leads to the decreation of so much, and now we have a s- physical spiritual birth that leads to the restoration-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the entire world. It feels like something Matthew would do.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I hadn't thought about that until this moment.
David: Yeah. So that's cool.
Seth: It l- while we're on the subject of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the importance of virginity-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... we should talk about th- the name, God with us, and the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. Like, this is what-
David: Oh, because that's, there's a prophecy about a virgin.
Seth: Right. And well, maybe before we get there, why is Mary's virginity important according to Matthew?
David: Hmm.
Seth: He tells us because he will save his people from their sins. She was conceived by the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son. You should call him Jesus because he will save his people from their sins, which is kind of everything we've been saying. Why is Mary's virginity important? It's to preserve the reality that God is coming to recreate a world and save it from their sin.
David: Okay. I, I'm... You're gonna have to help me there.
Seth: Yeah. S-
David: I, I'm having a hard time understanding the correlation between Jesus as the savior of sin-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... with virginity. [laughs] Can you draw a straight line between those for me?
Seth: Well, what I mean is we had just talked about how, like, the human experiment has always tried to use something like political power, reproduction-
David: Hmm, hmm, hmm
Seth: ... technology to save God's people, protect it from the evil ar- in the world, but it always ends up leading to sin, to decay, to decreation-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... the exile of Israel. So in this moment right here, we have a new creation happening without any of the means of human intervention that God's people have used in the past. Reproduction isn't even a part of it.
David: Hmm.
Seth: The Holy Spirit comes, does the work for them to symbolize that this new era, this new kingdom that God is bringingWe'll be free from sin. It'll be free from the sin that has plagued humans' attempts to live with God since the beginning of the Book of Genesis.
David: Mm.
Seth: Does that, does, does that clarify what-
David: I think so. Let me, let me try to reiterate that in a way that I can grasp onto. So ever since the beginning, a problem has existed inside of the human race, and that is that we have tried to obtain our righteousness or our relationship with God or our place in this world or how we're supposed to be inside of it. We've tried to do that through our own ingenuity instead of through, like, God's ways and God's wisdom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, ever since the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right? That's where we, we went wrong.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: God had a way for us to do things, and through our own ingenuity-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Eve thought she could, "If I knew the, the knowledge of good and evil, I could do it better." And so she tried to understand good and evil, define it for herself, and grab the, the fruit. She brought her own ingenuity into the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then ever since then, outside of the garden, man has been creating other kids in their own image.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Through their own ingenuity, even through reproduction, they're creating children born in sin, born in their own image.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And you're saying that God being the father figure here introduces a new kind of person-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that is unstained by the grasping for knowledge, the grasping for-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... sinful ingenuity, and that he's starting, like, a new humanity free from those old patterns of sin.
Seth: Yes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I think that's what I'm saying.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: Jesus represents God's new era of salvation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... apart from human effort-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... not even the effort of having a child, which up to this point in human history has been the only way that God has saved his people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's why you have a genealogy at the beginning of, of Matthew.
David: Right. God always saves his, his people through children.
Seth: Yeah, through a chosen child.
David: Mm.
Seth: Well, but it's, it's a David. It's David.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's the son of David.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's, you know, it's like it's always been a child, and it's still a child, but this time not a child born through a genealogy. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: No, no kid that we can be like, "That's my boy."
Seth: Right.
David: "I had a hand in that."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's, there's something, a new creation happening.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And in this n- new, this new creative work that's happening in Jesus will save the world from sin.
David: Mm. Yeah, okay. I think that makes sense then. So that's the reason why Mary's virginity is such good news.
Seth: Mm-hmm, yes, and that's part of it.
David: Oh, it's part of it.
Seth: And, and the other part of it is the prophecy from the Book of Isaiah.
David: Ah, that her virginity not only points to a theological point, but that it is actually also fulfilling another part of scripture.
Seth: Well, they're both theological points.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that one is like Jesus will save us from our sin.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But the other theological point is that God is with us.
David: Mm.
Seth: And how else could you prove more viscerally that God is with us than-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... becoming human, you know? [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Like... [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah, through, like, what are very close to the normal biological means of becoming-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a human, being born, being incubated in a womb and-
Seth: Right, like-
David: ... brought into the world
Seth: ... because Emmanuel could mean a whole bunch of things, right?
David: Right, "Oh, God's with us in this room."
Seth: God's attention, his affection-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... his victory over his people. Like, he was with Israel-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in fire and clouds and parting Red Seas.
David: He's always been Emmanuel.
Seth: He's always been Emmanuel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But when God is born of a virgin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God with us takes on a whole new connotation that-
David: Entirely
Seth: ... it's never had before.
David: I mean, so much so that that kind of Emmanuel has made people think Christianity is a heresy for saying that God could be with us in that way.
Seth: Right, yeah.
David: It's offensive.
Seth: It's like s- even as I've been thinking about it, it feels counterintuitive to talk about God as a man.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Or, like, Jesus only exists as a human.
David: Mm. [laughs] Right.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And what you mean by that, what you mean by that is the-
Seth: Since his conception
David: ... second... Yeah, since, like, the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God, has eternally existed with God the Father and will forever eternally exist, but Jesus, the named human-
Seth: Right
David: ... who is the incarnate eternal Son of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... became that-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in this moment that we're reading.
Seth: Right, and there's no distance in him between God and humanity.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like the hope of the whole Testament is that God could live with humans.
David: Right.
Seth: And-
David: That was the hope of the, of the garden, but-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Genesis 1.
Seth: And in Jesus, you have it not in God walking in the garden with Adam and Eve, having a relationship with them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You have God resting inside of a hu- like, not even resting inside of a human, God as human.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Which is like, oh, I never thought of this, is, like, kind of prefigured in how God created Adam in the first place.
Seth: He breathed into him.
David: He breathed into him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You had the breath, which is the Ruach, the spirit, the wind of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... comes into a man-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to animate him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he's his own autonomous human being.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But in Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the holy breath, the holy wind of God is blown into a human, and you get God himself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as the new Adam.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, it... Oh, or to say it another way, in Genesis 1, God's breath breathes on dirt, and you get a human being.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: In Matthew Chapter 1, God's breath breathes on a woman, and you get the Son of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's just, like, really interesting.
Seth: Really cool. So here's the question then.
David: Okay.
Seth: So what does God with us mean then for us? What will, like, it accomplish? Because it's not just a theological-
David: Right
Seth: ... truth for us to meditate on. It's meant to tell us something will be accomplished-
David: Right
Seth: ... by the fact that God becomes human. And so for this answer, I think you actually have to dig into Isaiah 7-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which is where the prophecy comes from.
David: Okay.
Seth: But you, you look like your mind is spinning before I even get there.
David: Well, yeah, 'cause I was just... I was trying to think of, like, w- w-Why do we need to qualify what does it mean that God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is with us?
Seth: Right.
David: And I was like, well, there are some situations that that might actually be bad news
Seth: That God is with us
David: ... that God is with us. Like, "Oh, if you come down here, how can you help us?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "We need you up there throwing meteors down on our enemies." [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: It's like, "What are you doing slumping it down here? What are you doing here? Go back up there where you had all the power. Why are you, why are you, why are you with us in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this capacity?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's a l- it's, you came a little too close.
Seth: Right.
David: You, you divested yourself or something.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, why did you come and be with us in this way? But anyway, I-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that was j- where my mind was spinning. But yes, let's go to Isaiah.
Seth: Let's go to Isaiah. [instrumental music plays] Okay, so we're asking the question, what does God with us mean?
David: Right.
Seth: What is it going to accomplish? And Isaiah 7 is gonna show us that it accomplishes two things.
David: Mm.
Seth: When God is with us, He defeats our enemies, and He judges evil.
David: Okay.
Seth: And, and specifically, He judges the leadership of Israel-
David: Oh
Seth: ... by the virgin birth.
David: Whoa.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Are you ready to go?
David: Uh, yeah.
Seth: Uh. [laughs]
David: Okay. S- set the table for me real quick-
Seth: Yes
David: ... for, for Isaiah.
Seth: Yes, okay. So historically-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the Book of Isaiah, uh, the leaders of the northern state of Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are pressuring the wicked King Ahaz, who leads the southern state of Judah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to surrender to Assyria.
David: Oh, okay, 'cause that's, they're gonna do it.
Seth: 'Cause, right. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs] Like, you know, you're making us look bad.
Seth: Right. And so, but Az- Ahaz resists.
David: Mm.
Seth: He doesn't want to surrender to Assyria and start paying them taxes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or whatever, what- whatever that would mean. And so the two leaders of Israel threaten to invade Jerusalem and Judah, Ahaz's territory-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and divide the land among themselves in order to remain in the good graces of Assyria.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the wicked King Ahaz is under serious political threat from his brothers in the north of Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... with Assyria in the background.
David: Okay.
Seth: But Ahaz is about to be given a prophecy by Isaiah.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Isaiah says that the two-headed attack, the two, the, the, the a- attack from those two different leaders-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the north of Israel will fail.
David: Oh.
Seth: It w- it won't work.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so he says, "I want you to ask me for a sign that it will happen."
David: Oh.
Seth: And he d- he tells Ahaz to ask him to give him a sign, which is odd.
David: That is odd.
Seth: But it's important for a reason we'll get into in a second. But what's happening here is Ahaz is a wicked king.
David: Right.
Seth: He doesn't trust God.
David: No.
Seth: He doesn't believe God is gonna do anything. He, he-
David: He would, he nee- he'd probably need a sign
Seth: ... he would need a sign. But regardless, Isaiah says, "Okay, ask God for a sign."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then Ahaz says, "No, no, no. No, I won't. If you say it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that'll be enough for me. I won't put God to the test."
David: Oh.
Seth: And it's a really odd moment because you've been putting God to the test through your entire leadership.
David: Through all your sin and-
Seth: Through all your sin-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and everything else. You're-
David: And now you wanna try to pretend to be righteous?
Seth: That's exactly the point.
David: So it's like false humility.
Seth: It's a false hu-
David: "Oh, no, I don't need a sign."
Seth: "I don't need a sign. I don't need a sign." And then Isaiah said, "Well, I'm gonna give it to you anyway." [laughs]
David: Apologies to all of our British listeners for my terrible British accent-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... when that was like, oh, that's what pompous people sound like.
Seth: Right.
David: That, that-
Seth: Pompous people-
David: We-
Seth: ... equal British
David: ... I apologize.
Seth: @davidbodie. [laughs]
David: That, don't, don't at me. I don't have any social media. [laughs]
Seth: So in response to the oncoming attack of the north of Israel, and in response to the King of Israel's false piety, he is given the sign of a young woman being given a child. And before that child is fully grown, whe- before he knows right or wrong, Judah's enemies will be destroyed.
David: Mm.
Seth: So that's the context of the prophecy about Immanuel.
David: Okay, so the sign is that a young woman who's a virgin-
Seth: Uh
David: ... right, who's not yet-
Seth: She's of marriable a-
David: She's-
Seth: So that's-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's a, she's a, an eligible woman who's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not yet slept with a man-
Seth: Yes
David: ... will, before your reign is over, conceive a child, and by the time that child is grown-
Seth: Before the child is grown
David: ... before the child is grown, your enemies will have failed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: The idea is there will be a fairly significant birth, a birth you'll see as kind of important or significant.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then before that child has even grown up, your problems will be solved.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the, the idea is that it'll happen pretty quickly, and it will be noticeable.
David: I mean, if I was Ahaz-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I would be going like, "Okay, how do I identify this kid?" 'Cause kids are being born all the time.
Seth: Right.
David: And people like virgins are getting married all the time.
Seth: That's right.
David: How do I know that this is the kid?
Seth: That's a great question.
David: Great. [laughs]
Seth: Can we get there in a second?
David: Oh, sure, yes.
Seth: It's, but it's the right question.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because, like, how do you... Like, this has to be a significant birth.
David: Right.
Seth: It has to be remarkable in some way. And what's interesting is Matthew, when he quotes this passage, it says, "A virgin will give birth."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But in Isaiah, it doesn't say virgin.
David: Mm.
Seth: It says, "A young woman-
David: Right
Seth: ... will give birth. A maiden will give birth." So-
David: Now, to all the people looking in their Bibles-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who say, "My Bible says virgin in Isaiah"-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what do you say to them?
Seth: Are you ready for some Hebrew? [laughs]
David: I'm always ready for some Hebrew.
Seth: So the Hebrew word is almah.
David: Okay, yep.
Seth: Which means maiden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: A woman of marriable age.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which assumes or has the connotation-
David: Of virginity
Seth: ... of virginity.
David: Right.
Seth: Not necessarily so, but perhaps.
David: Right. That would be a marry, a marriable woman in that age, in that day-
Seth: Would
David: ... would be a virgin.
Seth: Right. But what's interesting is if Isaiah wanted to say virgin, he had a very clear word-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to use virgin.
David: Okay.
Seth: But he chose not to use it. There's something ambiguous about the phrase. It could mean virgin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but it doesn't necessarily mean virgin.
David: Interesting.
Seth: Which, in my opinion, leads us up for the fact that there will be a child born in Isaiah's lifetime-That who's before he's fully grown, the enemies of Judah are defeated. And that's not a virgin birth, it's a natural birth.
David: Right.
Seth: But when Matthew reads it, he's reading in between the lines of that Hebrew word. So well, almah could mean virgin, and in Jesus it becomes virgin because Mary doesn't have sex with Joseph.
David: Yeah. That's interesting. What's interesting too is, a- as you were talking, I was looking up Matthew's word for virgin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and it seems to have a similar connotation.
Seth: It g- it goes both ways.
David: It goes both ways.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it's a, a young woman of marriageable age with or without focus on virginity is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the definition.
Seth: It has the connotation of it, but not the necessity-
David: Necessity of it
Seth: ... like, the necessity of it.
David: Right. So they both then, both Isaiah and Matthew-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Hebrew in the former and Greek in the latter, are using a word to talk about a marriageable, I don't even know if I'm saying that word right [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... woman. Uh-
Seth: A maiden
David: ... a maiden. Um, which makes me think of Robin Hood. [laughs] But Maid Marian.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Uh, anyway, uh, a, a young woman who can get married but should probably be a virgin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but doesn't nec- it doesn't... It's not necessarily-
Seth: It doesn't... Well, I guess what the... If it's like a virgin will give birth, you're like, "Well, that's a miracle."
David: That's a miracle.
Seth: But a maiden will give birth. Well, maidens give bir-
David: Give birth all the time
Seth: ... give birth all the time.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's not necessarily remarkable-
David: Mm
Seth: ... until it happens with Mary when she fulfills the prophecy in its strictest connotative way. Like, maiden could mean virgin, it often does mean virgin, but she means it literally. Does that make s- Do-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And now, but now I have another question about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Isaiah's words.
Seth: Yep.
David: Is if it's a maiden will give-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... bir- does this mean an unmarried woman?
Seth: Uh.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Not necessar- Uh, it... Okay.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I, I just... If you keep asking me all the questions, so who is this child?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? So let's just-
David: Maybe, oh, let's work the problem backwards.
Seth: Let's, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Who's the kid, and then let's see what happened. [laughs]
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So let, let, let me finish the story-
David: Okay
Seth: ... so of what's happening here. So the sign is given, a maiden will give birth, son will be called Immanuel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like God with us.
David: Will that be its name, his name?
Seth: Symbolically-
David: Okay
Seth: ... at the very least, or maybe actually.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But symbolically at the very least. And before this child grows up, Judah's enemies will be defeated.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay?
David: That's, that's what's on the line.
Seth: That's what's on the line.
David: So w- wh- who's the kid?
Seth: So, um-
David: I feel like M- M- Maury right now or-
Seth: So [laughs]
David: ... or Dr. Phil or something.
Seth: Give me, give me the paternity test.
David: Who's the kid? [laughs]
Seth: Well, so that prophecy is given in verse 14 of chapter 7. And then just a few verses later, the very beginning of chapter 8, I believe Isaiah himself is going to fulfill the prophecy he has just given to Ahaz. So God tells him to take a large scroll and write a name on it, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. [laughs]
David: Yep.
Seth: That's the name. And then Isaiah has sex with his wife, who's just called the prophetess in the Book of Isaiah, and she conceives and gives birth to a son, and then that son is named Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. And his name, by the way, means the one who will take the plunder, the one who will be victorious-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in other words. And then this descriptive statement, "For before the boy knows how to say 'My father' or 'my mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria."
David: Oh, so they've applied the prophecy to this kid.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So what I think is happening is that Isaiah prophesies to King Ahaz, "A child will be born and he will, before he's old, before he knows how to say 'father' or 'mother'- "
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: " ... your problem's are gonna be solved."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Assyria's gonna come in and take care of these two kings in the north." And then Isaiah fulfills that prophecy by God's fiat. [laughs] He says God tells him to name his son Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. He has a son, and then before his son is two years old, Assyria comes and takes out Ahaz's enemies.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay?
David: Okay.
Seth: So what does that mean for the virgin birth-
David: I have-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... so many questions.
Seth: You wanna ask your questions before we ask the question, so what does this have to say about Mary and Joseph and Jesus?
David: I guess so, 'cause that's the more important thing.
Seth: Okay.
David: My questions are just probably more annoying than helpful.
Seth: Well, let's get to Mary and Joseph-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and then we'll go backwards.
David: Okay.
Seth: So here's-
David: Yeah. Let's, let's focus on why this actually matters
Seth: ... so the, the name God with us-
David: Yes, Immanuel
Seth: ... Immanuel is first given in the context of military conquest. Okay?
David: Okay.
Seth: But Matthew transforms that slightly to suggest that our biggest enemy isn't Assyria, it isn't Samaria-
David: Or some kind of civil war
Seth: ... it isn't Babylon, it's sin.
David: Mm.
Seth: And you shall call him's name Jesus. Just like God gives Isaiah a name, God gives Joseph a name, Jesus. He will save the people from their sin. I think Matthew is trying to set us up like Jesus is coming to do war.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Joshua, he's a new Joshua.
David: Right, right, right. Yep.
Seth: He's coming to do war, not against Assyria, not against J- Judah, not against Babylon, not against Rome, but against sin.
David: Mm.
Seth: The virgin birth is a sign that the defeat of sin is around the corner.
David: And you're getting that because it's, it, you will call him Jesus, for he will save the people from their sins.
Seth: Sins, yes.
David: Where you would in the Isaiah story expect, "And you will call him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because he will save the people from the Assyrians," or from-
Seth: That's right
David: ... the Israel-
Seth: That's right
David: ... uh, uh, northern Israel leaders.
Seth: That's right.
David: But now the real enemy of God's people is sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And this new son in the pattern of, um, Isaiah and Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz is going to save people from the threat of sin.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's dope.
Seth: So cool, right?
David: Okay. I'm here for that.
Seth: And it's also a sign of judgment against Ahaz.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right after M- Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... was born, Assyria comes and wipes out the two leaders in the north of Israel, and then you know what happens next?
David: Mm.
Seth: God calls Assyria further south into Judah to deal with the half-hearted King Ahaz-
David: Oh
Seth: ... to dethrone him from power.That's what Isaiah threatens Ahaz with anyway.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So what's really fascinating then is the virgin birth is a sign of the destruction of the true people of God's enemies but it's also a destruction of the false leaders-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of God's people as well and what's really interesting is right after the story, we're introduced to another Jew who sits on a throne, who dismisses the sign of God's coming kingdom, King Herod.
David: Oh.
Seth: King Herod shows up, is the next character we're introduced to and he, just like King Ahaz, is gonna be given a sign. He rejects the significance of it, and soon he'll be dethroned from power.
David: Whoa.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Okay.
Seth: So that's why I think this story is so important-
David: Okay, so-
Seth: ... for us, uh, to understand Matthew. [laughs]
David: So, okay. So let me try, let me try, let me try. So Matthew brings up the prophecy and story from Isaiah 7 and 8 in order to communicate to us two truths. One, that God is providing a son who will save His people from their real enemies, not the Assyrians, but sin itself, and yet when that son comes and when the signs that accompany Him come, the evil and corrupt leaders in Israel will ignore that sign and therefore will be judged by their ignoring of that sign.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's really cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: The virgin birth will be a sign of judgment against Herod and leaders like him who reject him, which by the way, is exactly what the Pharisees and the religious leaders of Jesus will do all the way up to his death.
David: Yes.
Seth: They will claim that this virgin birth that nev- in their eyes never happened-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is the reason why they should dismiss him as the Messiah.
David: Right.
Seth: But it's actually the very grounds on which Matthew says is that makes him the Messiah. They're judged by their denial of the virgin birth the same way Ahaz is judged by his refusal to ask for a sign.
David: Okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Seth: It's got so many layers-
David: It's crazy
Seth: ... it's hard to keep track [laughs] of almost.
David: Yeah. Okay, here, here's what I'm wondering. I was gonna ask this question, but I was like, eh, it's kinda meta, maybe I won't, but now that we're talking about, uh, refusing or accepting the signs of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I think it's a good question. Why is Matthew looping in prophetic fulfillment in his story?
Seth: Hmm.
David: And I'm asking that question for a very specific reason because like when I was growing up and like going to high school and summer camps and stuff, the biggest apology, you know what I mean, like a, a defense of the truth of scripture or a defense of Jesus, that I heard was the fulfillment of prophecy. And people would list like, "Oh, here's every prophecy in the, uh, New Testament, you know, that Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is said to have fulfilled," and it's like how could that have happened without God being sovereign? And-
Seth: Right, right.
David: And as, as I've grown as a Bible reader over-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the decades or whatever since then, I'm like, I don't think the only thing Matthew's doing here is trying to prove to you that God is in control or-
Seth: Right
David: ... that Jesus was fulfilling prophecy to prove to you that he's the Messiah.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? I don't, I don't think it has to not do those things.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But what you just did here is far more interesting, that Jesus is fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah, or said another way, the prophecy Isaiah was pointing toward something-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that would happen in the future, not just to prove that Jesus is who He said He is, which is what I was always taught-
Seth: Right
David: ... but to tell us more about what Jesus came to do-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and who He is.
Seth: Yeah. We talked about, I believe, in the first Matthew podcast, is that the Old Testament sets up a whole bunch of shotguns over the mantelpiece.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: In good storytelling, you have a shotgun over the mantelpiece that if you ex- you show your audience it in scene one, it needs to go off-
David: Right
Seth: ... by scene five.
David: That's good writing.
Seth: For it to be an effective climax to the story.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I think what Matthew is doing is he sees the Old Testament as just a rack of shotguns. I-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I don't, I remember like sho- we gotta do a better metaphor than shotguns-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... 'cause there's just too many guns. Um, but it, he sees it as this rack of shotguns that are all fired in Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: The whole Old Testament is the story of deliverance and salvation and God's perseverance and God's love and God's care and God's power, and all of those stories about God's interaction with God's people are all fulfilled and come to their climax in Jesus. They're all fired-
David: Right
Seth: ... in their fullest, final, and greatest form when Jesus hits the scene.
David: Yeah, and I think what, what I'm trying to get at using this, the shotgun metaphor in this question is let, let's take the shotgun metaphor.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So let's say in the opening of a movie-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, you're introduced to this family, and they're, they're giving a cousin a tour of their home.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they go to the fireplace, and above the mantle of the fireplace is a buckshot, like a-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... big old shotgun up there, and the cousin's like, "Oh, what's, what's this shotgun for?" And he's like, "Oh, this was a gift given to me by my estranged uncle. Uh, and every time I look at it, I remember how bitter I am." You know?
Seth: Right.
David: And then you get this whole family history.
Seth: Right.
David: And so then in the last scene of that movie when the uncle shows up and pulls the shotgun off the mantelpiece-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, and shoots the, hi-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, his brother who, who doesn't like him, it's not just a cold-blooded murder.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's the, you've learned about why the gun was there and w-
Seth: It's a, it's a f- it's a symbol of a family feud. It's a symbol of-
David: Yes
Seth: ... betrayal. It's a symbol-
David: You know-
Seth: ... of violence. It's like-
David: You know that there's more happening there-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... than just either good writing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right? Or someone just killing someone. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: And so I think what I was saying was I th- I think like what Matthew's doing is he's pulling on Isaiah to give more color-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and meaning-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to what Jesus came to accomplish in his-
Seth: Yes
David: ... virgin birth.
Seth: Right.
David: And that to me just rounds out a whole lot more. So now to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... draw my giant circle back to my original question-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the Bible does that all the time.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Matthew's gonna point out a ton of them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What does that say to us today as people who don't wanna be Ahaz-Or the Pharisees looking at the signs
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: that God has given us
Seth: Meaning the Old Testament?
David: The Old Testament.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the, and their fulfillment. God's put these signs-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all in to show us who Jesus is. He's like, "See? Believe." And we don't wanna be like the Pharisees or Ahaz, who don't. I'm just like, it puts us as a reader.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Matthew's doing something really unique here. He's like, "Ah, don't be like Ahaz."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Instead, it feels like he's calling us to do something with the signs.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That I just have never approached Matthew that way before.
Seth: Well, what's interesting is you asked that question, and we're immediately given the character of Joseph.
David: Mm.
Seth: What does Joseph do with all these signs? Verse 24, "And when Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord commanded him, and he took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son, and he gave to him the name Jesus."
David: Mm.
Seth: So the thing that's interesting about that question is, like, okay, so what do we do with all the signs?
David: Yeah.
Seth: We could reject them, like King Ahaz-
David: Right
Seth: ... or like King Herod we'll do in a se- in a second. Or we could act on them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like Joseph. This is maybe an, a long way to answer your question, but what I think is really fascinating about that one line, "He did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son," like, what an odd detail. Matthew has loaded every phrase with meaning. This one just seems to come out of nowhere, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: But I think perhaps Joseph just read the Book of Isaiah really, really, really well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And if you notice, in Isaiah, chapter 8, Isaiah is given the name of a son, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he's told to name the son that name. But Isaiah is never told by God to have sex with his wife, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: He takes that part upon himself, or at the very least, God is silent on that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I'm just wondering if I- Joseph is paying attention. He's like, "Okay, God has given me a name, but he's already done all the conceiving and the s-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the childbearing himself. And I also know that God is doing something apart from human agency that has always been done through human agency in the past."
David: Right.
Seth: "And so I'm not going to do what God has not told me to do."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And God didn't tell Isaiah to do this part, so I'm not gonna do it either."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I'm only gonna name him once God does all the work."
David: Right.
Seth: You know?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I was like, I think he's just reading his Bible really well, and the fact that he doesn't have sex with Mary is proof that he's read Isaiah very carefully.
David: Mm.
Seth: I think the invitation is, let's read our Bibles [laughs] far more carefully [laughs] like on a really simple level, but also read them in such a way that they have real import for the salvation of all of humanity and the creation of the entire world.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, I don't think Joseph didn't have sex with his wife just because he felt awkward.
David: Right.
Seth: I think he's reading appropriately the import of what's happening-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in their lives. God is creating a new world apart from human agency.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's creating a new kingdom, and this is his son. I am somehow a new Isaiah.
David: Mm.
Seth: A father to a son that will predict the end of the era and kingdoms of sin.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or who will judge Herod-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the leaders who are, act too pious but aren't really. I'm not getting in the way of that. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Like, I'm not-
David: I'm not touching that.
Seth: I'm not touching that, like, because he knows what God is up to.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so I think our invitation is fairly similar. It's like, read your Bible carefully, and know that God is up to something far more than the simple play-by-play of history.
David: Mm.
Seth: The history of Israel is the prototype for the salvation of all of the universe.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And [laughs] do, do, does that make sense?
David: Yeah. It's really interesting.
Seth: Is that an answer to your question?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause I mean, I think my question was kind of simple and was worded really difficultly, so I think you're riffing on a, like, on a more in-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... in- interesting point, 'cause I think my question was, like, what should we do with the signs in the Bible to not be like Ahaz? Obey them.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Take, take heed of them.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, and now you're, you're, like, fleshing out what it looks like when somebody really pays attention to what God's doing in history.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You're like, "Oh, God's doing this? Let me read my Bible and see how that maps on. Oh, this would be a very holy way to approach the situation." Which then, thinking about how closely Joseph was reading Isaiah, takes me back to one of my annoying questions that I said I was gonna ask earlier.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: I'll, I'll, I'll only do one.
Seth: Please.
David: But I've never thought of this before. So chapter eight of Isaiah, verse three. Like you said-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... God didn't command Isaiah to go and have sex in order to create this child.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He just does it. We're not told if that's wrong or right.
Seth: Right. It's just-
David: The Bible's silent on it. It's am- ambiguous.
Seth: It's, it's just, we don't have thus saith the Lord in that one.
David: No.
Seth: But we have it right before and after. That's all I'm, I'm saying.
David: And, and this is me reading my English Bible.
Seth: Okay.
David: So it may be the question's far-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... very easy. But it says that, "And I," being Isaiah, "went to the prophetess's, and she conceived and bore a son."
Seth: Ah.
David: What's going on there? Is he just... Did he go to, like, some... Is, like-
Seth: Well, that's what I thought at first. The NIV says, "Then I made love to the prophetess," which-
David: Doesn't sound much better, does it? [laughs]
Seth: Doesn't sound... I was like, but I was like, I, I was like, "What's happening here?"
David: It's not called his... Well, so what's interesting, here's what's interesting.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: It's not called his wife.
Seth: Right.
David: There are really good Hebrew words for wife.
Seth: [laughs] Right.
David: He goes to a prophetess or the prophetesses, who would've been maidens-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... unmarried people, virgins. And like I said, like, so is this an unmarried woman who gives birth to the son?
Seth: I understand.
David: That would get the king's attention-
Seth: Yes
David: ... if one of his virgin prophetesses gets pregnant.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That seems, like, very untoward.
Seth: Yes. Yeah. I, I wrestled with this idea.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because, like, so what is actually happening here?
David: Right.
Seth: Because it sounds like-Isaiah is having an extra-marital affair-
David: Right
Seth: ... and having a son. So in chapter seven, verse three, we hear that Isaiah is already a father.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Go out and tell your son Shear-jashub to meet Ahaz at the end of the aqueduct." So, like, we know that Isaiah, uh, has a son, presumably of a wife.
David: Right.
Seth: And scholarly consensus seems to indicate that the prophetess is code for his wife.
David: But she wouldn't be a maiden or a virgin.
Seth: She would be of marriage, marriable age.
David: But she was already married.
Seth: Right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But remember, it, the point is that this would be a fairly obvious sign to King Ahaz, and a prophetic sign act of having a child between one of Israel's leading prophets-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and his prophetess wife would be a fairly public event, and Isaiah would not be the first prophet to have children as a sign-
David: No, right
Seth: ... to the nation that something significant is a- about to happen.
David: Right.
Seth: So I don't think you need to read it as that Isaiah had sex with a virgin and that child-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... came about through the scandal or whatever.
David: Right.
Seth: I don't think you need to read it that way. I think you can read it like, no, Isaiah, as the prophet of Israel, had sex with his wife and had a child, and then prophetically named that child something that would communicate to the King of Israel that this was the fulfillment-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of prophecy.
David: Right.
Seth: And that that happens often enough throughout the prophets-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for it to be enough for me to make sense.
David: Oh, totally. I think that could make total sense for me, too. I think what's interesting-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if I'm just, like, allowing myself to let the Bible be scandalous, as it often is.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, nothing's on the line if Isaiah did this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a, in a, in a untoward kinda way.
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, nothing breaks in the Bible if that's true. And so you just-
Seth: Except God perhaps commanding.
David: No, he didn't command.
Seth: Well, well, right, right, right.
David: So here's my point, is, is what, what's interesting, with everything you've put in my head-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you're doing this to me.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Everything you've put in my head is, okay, we should come to expect that God does miraculous births in order to prove something to His people.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And oftentimes He needs to do that just ex nihilo.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, He opens Sarah's womb-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or something crazy happens.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, y- I'm, I'm just curious if we had, like, a Hagar situation here, where God was going to do something miraculous-
Seth: Oh, right
David: ... with maybe even his wife or-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... this prophetess woman or whatever, and Isaiah took it upon himself, you know, to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to go and, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and do this himself since he wasn't commanded to, which then Joseph reads this, and he's like, "Oh, I see what's happening here. I'm not touching Mary until she gives birth, then."
Seth: I, not that I want to be like Isaiah, I don't want to be like Isaiah.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: I see what you're saying.
David: So anyway, I'm just like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... it doesn't really matter. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: None of this really matters, but you're just putting all this stuff in my head [laughs] and I'm like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Whoa, what's happening here?"
Seth: It's really fascinating when, like, when you pay attention to the places that God speaks and doesn't speak-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... I feel like it opens up a whole new way to read scripture-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that's actually really important, especially when you read some of the narratives in Kings and Judges.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, it's like when God speaks, it's an important piece of information. And when He withholds speech-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that's a- and people act anyway, that's also really a- an important piece of information, and regardless, Joseph is picking up on that.
David: Yeah. Well, that, that's just cool to kinda talk about. So all right. Well, that, th- I think we've covered all of chapter one now, with the genealogies and then-
Seth: The-
David: The-
Seth: ... birth narrative
David: ... or at least the Joseph part of the birth narrative, the Joseph section.
Seth: Well, really, we just talked about Mary-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the child.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We didn't even talk about Joseph. [laughs]
David: No.
Seth: So-
David: And Jesus isn't even born yet. He's still in the womb.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] So-
David: This is a conception narrative we've talked about here.
Seth: So we'll go back. We'll talk about Joseph and the way that he's connected to the Old Testament story of Joseph next week.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: But for now, that's it.
David: That, that's it.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Will we get to the wise men and Herod next week, too-
Seth: We-
David: ... or it'll just be Joseph?
Seth: We'll get to the wise men-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and all the fun stuff.
David: That's exciting.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. Well, thank you guys for joining us in our trip through Matthew. This has been a fun first chapter. Can't wait to continue, and we'll see you there next week.
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