Spoken Gospel podcast with a photo of David and Seth

Matthew 2: Out of Egypt I Called Jesus

About This Episode

Just like God got Israel out of Egypt, God takes Jesus out of Israel. Seth and David continue to explore their hunch that Matthew is repeating Israel's history in Jesus' life.

Listen Now Read Show Notes

Listen On

Apple Podcasts Youtube Spotify

Out of Egypt I Called Jesus: How Matthew Reveals the Messiah as Israel in the Flesh

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart continue their journey through the Gospel of Matthew, unpacking one of the most layered and theologically rich passages in the entire birth narrative. This episode explores Matthew 2 and the dramatic flight to Egypt, revealing how Matthew understood Jesus not merely as a teacher or miracle-worker, but as the embodiment of Israel's entire history—replaying the nation's story in order to finally fulfill it.

The Necessity of a New Israel

The central claim of this episode is striking: Jesus is "Israel in the flesh." But what does that mean, and why does it matter? The answer lies in understanding God's original plan for blessing the world. From the very beginning, God intended to bless all nations through His people. This was the promise made to Abraham—that through his offspring, all the families of the earth would be blessed. The nation of Israel was meant to be God's vehicle for that worldwide blessing.

The problem is that Israel consistently failed. Whether through bad leadership, disobedience, or outright rebellion, the story of Israel in the Old Testament is one of repeated failure to fulfill their calling. They were supposed to be a light to the nations, but they kept stumbling in darkness. The question then becomes: how can God still bless the world through a people who cannot seem to get it right? The answer Matthew provides is that God Himself enters the story. Jesus comes as the true Israel, the faithful Son who will walk through every chapter of Israel's history and succeed where the nation failed. He must relive Israel's story in order to finally accomplish what Israel never could.

Jesus Replays the Story of Genesis and Joseph

Before diving into Matthew 2, the episode recaps how Matthew has already been making this argument from the very first verse. Matthew begins with the phrase "This is the genesis of Jesus the Messiah," deliberately echoing the opening formula of the book of Genesis. Just as Genesis introduced the beginning of God's people through genealogies, so Matthew introduces Jesus through a genealogy that traces back to Abraham—the first citizen of Israel and the recipient of the promise to bless all nations.

The Book of Genesis ends with a character named Joseph who becomes second-in-command of Egypt and uses that position to bless the entire world with bread during a devastating famine. Matthew picks up this melody by introducing Jesus's earthly father, also named Joseph. Both Josephs receive divine dreams. Both are connected to royalty. And both are instruments through which provision comes to the nations. In Matthew, the foreign Magi bring gifts to the infant Jesus in Bethlehem—a town whose name means "house of bread." Through these echoes, Matthew is signaling that Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of the Joseph story. He is the true Son of Abraham who will bring blessing to the world.

Israel Has Become Egypt

The episode then turns to the startling inversion at the heart of Matthew 2. When an angel warns Joseph in a dream to flee with his family, the destination is Egypt—historically the place of slavery and oppression for God's people. But in this narrative, Egypt becomes the place of refuge, while Israel becomes the land of danger. Herod, the Jewish king, is the one hunting innocent children. The religious establishment of Israel is complicit in rejecting the signs of the Messiah. The roles have been completely reversed.

This is not an accident. Matthew quotes the prophet Hosea: "Out of Egypt I called my son." When Hosea originally wrote those words, he was looking backward to the Exodus, when God rescued the nation of Israel from Pharaoh's oppression. But Matthew applies this prophecy to Jesus, implying something radical: Israel itself has now become Egypt. The nation that was once enslaved under Pharaoh has become the enslaving power. Herod, with his paranoid violence, is the new Pharaoh. The implication is devastating—God's own people have become so corrupt that the Messiah must flee from them just as Moses once fled from Pharaoh.

This explains why Jesus needs to be "Israel in the flesh." The nation has forfeited its calling. It is no longer capable of being the blessing God intended. Jesus must therefore become a new Israel, a righteous remnant of one, who will accomplish what the nation could not.

Herod as Both Egypt and Babylon

The theological layering goes even deeper when Matthew quotes the prophet Jeremiah: "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." This quotation comes from Jeremiah 31, which originally described the grief of Israelite mothers whose children had been taken into exile by Babylon. By quoting this passage in the context of Herod's massacre of the children in Bethlehem, Matthew is making a staggering claim: Herod is not just the new Pharaoh—he is also the new Babylon.

The two greatest enemies Israel ever faced were Egypt and Babylon. Egypt enslaved them at the beginning of their national story. Babylon destroyed their temple and dragged them into exile near the end. By portraying Herod as both, Matthew is saying that Israel's leadership has become the worst of its historical oppressors combined. The people are suffering under their own rulers as badly as they ever suffered under foreign powers.

Yet Jeremiah 31 is overwhelmingly a chapter of hope. It describes God's promise to bring the exiles home, to restore families, to establish a new covenant, and to fill the land with joy and abundance. The weeping of Rachel is acknowledged, but it is answered with a promise: "Your children will return from the land of the enemy." Matthew sees Jesus as the fulfillment of that promise. Jesus is the exiled child who will return. His return from Egypt is the beginning of the end of exile for all of God's people.

Jesus as the New Moses Returning to His People

The parallels between Jesus and Moses become even more explicit as the narrative continues. Moses was born under the shadow of an infanticidal king who feared losing power to a Hebrew deliverer. Moses was raised in Pharaoh's household as a potential heir to the throne. When Moses killed an Egyptian and fled, he spent years in exile in the wilderness of Midian. It was only after Pharaoh died that God spoke to Moses through the burning bush and sent him back to Egypt to deliver his people.

Matthew mirrors this sequence precisely. Jesus is born under Herod, an infanticidal king who fears losing power. Joseph flees with Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod's murderous decree. And then Matthew records this striking parallel: after Herod dies, an angel appears to Joseph in a dream and says, "Take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child's life are dead." This is almost a verbatim echo of what God said to Moses in Exodus: "Go back to Egypt, for all those who wanted to kill you are dead."

Just as Moses returned to Egypt to confront Pharaoh and deliver Israel, Jesus now returns to Israel to confront its corrupt leadership and deliver a new people. Joseph in this moment functions as a Moses figure, leading God's Son out of danger. But very quickly, Jesus Himself will take on the role of Moses—the founder of a new nation, the lawgiver on a new mountain, the deliverer who will bring His people out of bondage.

The Nazarene: A Humble King and Holy Branch

Matthew concludes the birth narrative with a curious statement: Jesus "went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene." The puzzle is that no Old Testament prophecy explicitly says the Messiah will be called a Nazarene. Unlike the quotations from Hosea and Jeremiah, Matthew provides no specific verse reference. Instead, he speaks of "the prophets" in the plural, suggesting he is drawing on a theme rather than a single text.

The key lies in the Hebrew consonants N-Z-R, which appear in two significant words. The first is "nazir," referring to someone who has taken a Nazarite vow—a person set apart for holy service to God, living with the same restrictions as a high priest. Samson was a nazir, and despite his flaws, he was a deliverer who defeated God's enemies. The second word is "nezer," which means "branch." Throughout the prophets, "branch" is a technical term for the coming Davidic king who would restore Israel's fortunes.

By calling Jesus a "Nazarene," Matthew may be making a brilliant wordplay. Jesus is both the set-apart holy one and the royal branch. He is consecrated for a divine mission and destined to rule. And strikingly, he comes from Nazareth—a backwater town of no reputation. The prophet Isaiah described the coming servant as "a root out of dry ground," someone with no beauty or majesty to attract attention, despised and rejected by men. Jesus fulfills this too. He is the humble king from nowhere, the branch destined to rule the world who begins his life as a refugee infant in a town so insignificant that people would later ask, "Can anything good come from Nazareth?"

This is the capstone of Matthew's argument. Jesus is the son of Abraham who will bless the nations. He is the son of David who will reign forever. He is Israel in the flesh, replaying and fulfilling the entire history of God's people. And he is the humble, set-apart branch who will accomplish all of this not through worldly power, but through faithful obedience to his Father. The mothers who wept for their children will see those children returned. The exiles will come home. The corrupt leadership will be confronted. And a new nation will be born, led by a Messiah who descended into exile so that he could bring his people out of it forever.

Transcript

Seth: [upbeat music] So who is Jesus? Who is this child that's born? He's the humble king from nowhere-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who's also the branch that will rule the world.

David: Yeah.

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our look at the Book of Matthew and trying to see how to read the Old Testament through Matthew's eyes-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... with Jesus glasses on. Walking through that's been really exciting.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So Seth, how you feeling today?

Seth: I'm really excited. Um, I've had a lot of fun in this journey, discovering how Matthew believes that Jesus is not just God in the flesh, but Israel in the flesh-

David: Mm

Seth: ... repeating the pattern and history of God's people in his own life. It's just been a really fun way to-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... think about the life of Jesus, but also a fun way to think about the history of Israel as the thousand-year-long story-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of what Jesus does in 33 years before his death. [laughs]

David: Yeah. I think everything we've said so far has prepared me to understand what you, what you're talking about there with Jesus' filling out and incarnating the story of-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the Old Testament-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of the people of Israel. We've looked at like the genealogies, and we've looked a little bit at Joseph and, and everything, and I'm seeing like, okay, Jesus is-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... repeating those, but I don't think you've used that exact language here yet of Israel in the flesh.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] I-

David: So what do you mean by that?

Seth: What I mean is kind... It's just another way that I'm experimenting with understanding what Matthew wants us to see-

David: Mm

Seth: ... Jesus as. He's the Messiah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's the savior of Israel. He's the one who's come to save his people and all people, but how? By reliving Israel's story and fulfilling it in all of the hope it originally had.

David: Mm.

Seth: So it's, he's Israel in the flesh, the hope of Israel in the flesh, the king of Israel in the flesh, the nation of Israel-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the flesh. He is Israel embodied, not just as a nation and as a, as a history, but also in all their hopes and expectations.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Does that make sense?

David: I think so. I mean, 'cause I'm trying to, I'm trying to wrap my head around why that's needed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? 'Cause, I mean, I'm thinking, okay, the history of Israel-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... all throughout the Old Testament, there's like this pattern of, yeah, like you said, hope and expectation. I m- go back to the garden, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Here's a new world for us to live in. Oh, you messed that up.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know? Oh, here's a new land, Canaan, for you to live in. Oh, messed that up.

Seth: Mm-hmm. [laughs]

David: You know? Here's a law, obey it. Oh, you messed that up. You know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so is it that Israel needs a redo? They need someo- Why do they need-

Seth: Mm

David: ... someone in the flesh to act out their story again? Why is that, why is that on the line?

Seth: Well, God's people are how God blesses the world.

David: God's people are how God blesses the world. Yep, okay.

Seth: That's how he always intended it to be.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's what Adam and Eve were supposed to do.

David: Yeah.

Seth: God's people were supposed to bless the world.

David: Right. As Israel followed the law, they would be a light to the nations and bless them.

Seth: Moses was told that he would bless the world-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because he was God's chosen person, like-

David: Or Abraham.

Seth: Abraham, sorry.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Sorry, Ab- Abraham. That's been God's intention-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that God's people would bless the world.

David: Right.

Seth: So if God's people, symbolized by the nation of Israel-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is going to finally accomplish what it needs to accomplish-

David: Mm

Seth: ... Israel's history needs to be played out again.

David: Right.

Seth: Jesus needs to be God's people. He needs to be Israel-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in order for the world to be blessed.

David: I see. Because the story of Israel is not just narrative tidbits of, like, cool actions, they were actually God's way of blessing the world.

Seth: Yes.

David: But that blessing hadn't gone out in the way it was supposed to.

Seth: It kept getting hamstrung by the leadership of Israel-

David: By sin and-

Seth: ... by sin-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... whatever else. Yes.

David: Okay. So God had a way to s- to bless the world-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and it was through a people, and he put them in stories and gave them, like, different environments and laws and land in order to accomplish that blessing.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But it was hamstrung by leadership and sin, and so now Jesus, as the new Israel in the flesh-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is going to walk that story out again-

Seth: Yep

David: ... and succeed where Israel failed-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... in order to bring the blessing God's always wanted to bring to the world.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay, that's helpful.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: So let me just recap where we've been so far and prove the point that Matthew wants us to see that Jesus is replaying-

David: Okay

Seth: ... Israel's history.

David: Yeah, do it.

Seth: So Jesus's life began like the story of creation began in Genesis 4:2. "This is the genesis of..." This is the beginning of.

David: Mm.

Seth: And that's the very first words of the Book of Matthew. "This is the beginning of Jesus Christ."

David: Mm.

Seth: In the book, Genesis chapter two, right before it chronicles the creation of the world, it says, "This is the beginning of," and that continued with a long list of genealogies. And every one of those genealogies began, "This is the genesis of the people of God." You know, like, this is-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that phrasing, the genesis of, the beginning of, and Matthew begins the same way. "This is the genesis of Jesus."

David: Mm.

Seth: And just as the Book of Genesis begins with genealogies, Matthew begins with genealogies.

David: Right.

Seth: And as the genesi- the genealogies of Genesis lead to Abraham, the first of God's chosen people, the firstCitizen of Israel. Matthew's genealogy begins with Abraham.

David: Mm.

Seth: Abraham is the first person mentioned in the genealogy.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he's, he's the one who is supposed to bless the world, and we're about to read the genealogy, the beginning, the genesis of the man who will bless the world. That's-

David: I see.

Seth: Right?

David: That's helpful.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: I don't think we quite nailed that in the genealogy episode.

Seth: Yeah, so-

David: Yeah. That's cool.

Seth: And then Abraham, so Abraham was God's choice to bless the entire world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then, so that means Matthew understands Jesus not only as the true son of Abraham, but like the embodied hope of Israel as a nation-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that they would bless the world. We've, we've said that already. And as we know, the story of Genesis ends with a son of Abraham blessing the whole world.

David: Mm.

Seth: That was Abraham's promise-

David: Yep

Seth: ... that your nation will bless the whole world.

David: Right.

Seth: That-

David: And that's Joseph, right?

Seth: At the very end of the Book of Genesis, there's a character named Joseph-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... who becomes the second in command of Egypt.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And from that position of power, he blesses the whole world with bread during a catastrophic famine.

David: All the world in a famine comes to Joseph, and he-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... provides for them.

Seth: Right.

David: Fulfilling in part the blessing of all nations that Abraham's offspring were supposed to do.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So which is why Matthew replays the melody of Joseph's life-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in Jesus' father, Joseph.

David: Joseph. [laughs]

Seth: Joseph is given a kingly title, the son of David-

David: Mm

Seth: ... just like Joseph was a kingly title in Egypt, the second-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in command to Pharaoh. Both Josephs have dreams. Both Josephs receive gifts or money from foreign nations in return for either actual bread during the famine or Jesus, the bread of life from the town of Bethlehem, which is known as the house of bread.

David: Right.

Seth: We talked about that.

David: And that was the, the riches he received were the gifts from the Magi.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yep.

Seth: That's right. So the point is, like what is Jesus doing? He's replaying Israel's history.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He is Israel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's Israel in the flesh. So if we have all that in our mind, what do we expect next is the fact that, well, in Israel's history, they spent 400 years in slavery-

David: Right

Seth: ... with a big bad guy named Pharaoh surrounded by magicians who refuse and refute all the signs of Moses.

David: Right.

Seth: And so Matthew opens this phase of Jesus's life not by introducing us to an Egyptian Pharaoh, but the Jewish king, Herod-

David: Mm

Seth: ... who has surrounded himself by the Jewish religious establishment. And the first thing Herod and all the religious elite of Israel do is they refuse to accept the implications of a sign-

David: Mm

Seth: ... a moving light that foreshadows a new king of the Jews is on the rise.

David: Right.

Seth: And that brings us to Matthew 2 where we, uh, left off last time.

David: Okay. That makes a ton of sense because, yeah, in the Exodus story, you had Pharaoh who was confronted by Moses saying, you know, "Let my people go." There's... And he's like, "Here's a sign from God."

Seth: Yep.

David: "I'm gonna take my staff and turn it into a snake." And he was like, "Eh, my magicians can do the same thing. I'm gonna refute it."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "I'm not gonna let the people go."

Seth: That's right.

David: Then what's the connective tissue after that?

Seth: We can go, keep going-

David: Okay

Seth: ... in the story, Matthew's story, because-

David: 'Cause I'm like, there's no... You don't have the plagues. [laughs]

Seth: Not yet.

David: Oh, no. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Okay. All right. All right. All right. I'll, let's go along for the ride.

Seth: [laughs] But so that's, that's where we've been so far.

David: Yeah.

Seth: This is how Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... played the story of Israel. If you imagine Moses delivering the first sign, Pharaoh rejecting it.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: What do we expect next? We expect something, maybe, maybe plagues next.

David: Right.

Seth: Maybe we also expect the character of Pharaoh to be built out more. Pharaoh killed a whole bunch of children.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like all that kind of stuff.

David: It's kinda how we're introduced to him-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in the Exodus story is, "So there was this guy named Pharaoh. He was scared of the Israelites having children."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And so he killed all the male children under two."

Seth: That's right. Here's how Matthew begins his next section, filling out Jesus as Israel in slavery in Egypt.

David: Okay.

Seth: This is what he says, "When they had gone," the Magi had gone.

David: Mm.

Seth: "An angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in dream, and he said, 'Get up. Take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you because Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.'"

David: Mm.

Seth: "So Joseph got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so it was fulfilled what the Lord said through the prophet," Hosea in this ca- case, " 'Out of Egypt I called my son.'"

David: Okay.

Seth: So if Jesus is Israel's history in the flesh, we expect a version of the Exodus story here. So J- Joseph has another dream, but this time it warns him to leave Israel in order to save Jesus's life.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Herod wants to kill Jesus, and in fact, he kills all the boys in Bethlehem in the next verse. [laughs]

David: Mm.

Seth: So he is Pharaoh reincarnated.

David: Right.

Seth: But what's fascinating is that Egypt is now Israel.

David: Right, 'cause he's not fleeing Egypt.

Seth: That's right.

David: The big baddie is in Israel, and they're-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... leaving Israel to go to where the big baddie used to be, in Egypt.

Seth: That's right. Israel has become Egypt.

David: It's flipped.

Seth: Yeah, the place of hard-hearted leaders and infanticide is now S- God's country.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It, it's an inversion of what should be true.

David: That's an interesting way then that the text itself answers with the question I had earlier about-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... why do we need an Israel in the flesh, a new Israel in the flesh?

Seth: Mm-hmm. Oh, yes.

David: It's because Israel's become Egypt.

Seth: That's right.

David: And so they're not blessing the world, they're killing the world.

Seth: That's right.

David: They are now Pharaoh's evil-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... multiplying and oppressing the world instead of, [laughs] instead of blessing it.

Seth: And, uh, instead of blessing, that's right.

David: And so Jesus is now this new remnant, this new son of Abraham who is going, is like walking in the story of this tiny remnant people-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... who are going to escape from the oppressive nation and bless the world.

Seth: That's right.

David: Except now that oppressive nation is Israel herself, who needs a new enfleshed Israel-

Seth: That's right

David: ... to bring about the blessing.

Seth: And that's confirmed by the fact-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that MatthewHas inverted Hosea's prophecy

David: The out of Egypt-

Seth: I-

David: ... I called my son?

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: Because when Ma- Hosea said it, he said it of God calling Israel out of actual Egypt.

David: So he, in, in Hosea's day, he's retelling the story-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of the exodus.

Seth: Yes.

David: And he actually means back in the day, literal Egypt.

Seth: Yep.

David: And out of that place I called Israel.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: But now Matthew is saying, "Now God is gonna do the same thing again. He's gonna rescue His people from slavery again-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and He's going to call His people out of Egypt one more time."

David: Mm.

Seth: But by quoting it here, he explicitly under- makes us understand that Israel has become Egypt, and Jesus is Israel.

David: Mm.

Seth: His, God's son is Jesus, and God called Israel His son-

David: Right

Seth: ... out of Egypt, and now He's gonna call His son, Jesus, out of this new Egypt called Israel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Does that make sense?

David: It does. One thing that I wanna see, like why quote Hosea here-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... kinda question is, I mean, I know there was a lot of the stuff that we're already flagging going on in Jesus's day that was going on in Israel in Hosea's day.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, 'cause we've talked through Hosea before, and there was, you know, political idolatry, bad leadership-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... all kinds of things.

Seth: Yes.

David: And it, it seems like for him to say that Israel has become the new Egypt-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and that's being fulfilled right now-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... Hosea's prophecy is being fulfilled right now, it seems like Matthew's, like interpreting Hosea really well-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in saying that you guys should have actually seen this coming a lot earlier. You guys were like Egypt even back when Hosea originally said this.

Seth: Yeah. To my knowledge, Hosea never calls Israel Egypt-

David: Right

Seth: ... but it gives us a picture of Israel that looks no different than Egypt.

David: Right.

Seth: And throughout the Old Testament there is a Biblical theme of Israel becoming more and more like Egypt over time.

David: Yeah, like when Solomon took over Israel as king, he, like, got a bunch of-

Seth: First thing he did was-

David: ... chariots from Egypt

Seth: ... he, the first thing he did was bought a whole bunch of Egyptian horses.

David: It's like, ah, you're not supposed to do that.

Seth: And then he enslaved his own people. So, like that was, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... that's the-

David: Israel has always become like Egypt.

Seth: Yes.

David: And now nail in the coffin, so much so that they have, God has to call His own son out of the husk of his former s- collective son, Israel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Man, okay.

Seth: So-

David: I'm following. Yeah

Seth: ... yeah, so what it mean, so what that means is Matthew understands that Jesus is Israel in the flesh, and he's being called out of Israel as a nation-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... i.e. Egypt

David: Egypt

Seth: ... in order to save Israel from its own leadership.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And-

David: And by extension, the world

Seth: ... and by extension, the world.

David: As the Son of Abraham.

Seth: And so he, and then, uh, then to your point, what you said was like, he's, that means also he's the new leader, the rightful leader-

David: Right

Seth: ... of Israel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: If Israel has abdicated its call to lead in the way it's supposed to, and Jesus repeating the story of Israel to bless the world, he should be the king of the Jews.

David: I see.

Seth: He is the one they've been waiting for all this time.

David: Yeah, that's cool. So when Jesus is leaving Israel with his family, are we supposed to see him as the new Moses-

Seth: Mm

David: ... as the new-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... as the new Abraham, as a new collective Israel? Like, what's Matthew wanting to have in my brain-

Seth: Yes

David: ... this moment?

Seth: Beginning right now, and will continue throughout the rest of the book of Matthew, is that in a sense right now, Joseph is Moses. [laughs] You know?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, he's the one take- rescuing God's son out of Egypt.

David: Oh, right. So J- oh, I see. Joseph is the new Moses.

Seth: Yep.

David: And the son is Jesus, who was-

Seth: Right

David: ... the collective Israel.

Seth: Right.

David: Israel followed Moses out of Egypt-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... just as Jesus is being taken out of Israel by his dad, Joseph.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay, that's cool.

Seth: But-

David: I follow that

Seth: ... very quickly, Jesus too will also become Moses.

David: Okay. [laughs]

Seth: Um, and he will be the king of a new nation-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... very, very quickly in Matthew's-

David: Okay

Seth: ... understanding. So I think Matthew kinda takes the father-son, the, the, the royal family, the divine family of, kind of almost as a unit sometimes-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... but also, which allows him to see Jose- as Moses and then also Jesus as Moses at different-

David: Mm

Seth: ... at different points of time. [gentle music]

David: So we have Jesus, the Son of God, being the enfleshed version of corporate Israel, who was called in the Old Testament the Son of God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And Israel was called out of literal Egypt under Pharaoh to become a new people that would bless the world, and now Jesus is being called out of Israel, the new spiritual Egypt-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... under evil Herod-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... in order to go out and be a new leader who will bless the world.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yep.

Seth: You did it.

David: [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] You did it. You are reading both your Old Testament and the Book of Matthew as Matthew intended.

David: All right. Okay. So now what?

Seth: Verse 16, uh, "When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem"

David: Never outwit a megalomaniac.

Seth: Uh, yeah. [laughs]

David: They're just gonna get mad.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] And so th- and this is just proving the point that he's Pharaoh. He's committing infanticide-

David: Mm

Seth: ... just as Pharaoh did. "Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled"

David: When he, when all the children were killed.

Seth: That's right. "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and refusing to be comforted because they are no more." It's really-

David: That's very confusing because Jeremiah was way after the, uh, after Pharaoh killed all the children, right? Uh-

Seth: Yes, yes, yes

David: ... I guess these are-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in a way Rachel's children that were being-

Seth: Well, yeah, you're right. Jeremiah is n- not talking about Egyptian brutality. He's talking about Babylonian brutality.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: Which means that-Apparently, Matthew doesn't just understand Herod as a type of Egypt.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He also understands him as a type of Babylon.

David: Right.

Seth: So he's also kind of escalating the type of leadership in Israel.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: He's not just the first bad guy we're introduced to.

David: Egypt and Pharaoh.

Seth: Egypt, but Herod and the religious elite of Israel-

David: Yep

Seth: ... are Babylonian in nature.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They're the ones who sent them into exile and, like, caused a lot of the social and political situation they're in right now-

David: Mm

Seth: ... because of their failures.

David: That's really interesting. So yeah, so God is not only calling Israel in this day and age, in Jesus's age Egypt, he's also saying, "You're the ratcheted up big baddie of the Old Testament, Babylon."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then if he's quoting Jeremiah-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and there's this weeping and loud lamentation that's happening for the children of Rachel, which are-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the people of Israel, he's referring to what happened when they were exiled by Babylon.

Seth: That's right.

David: So are we then supposed to see Jesus in this moment not only as the remnant exiting from Egypt in triumph, but also he's being exiled, like Israel, in punishment?

Seth: Yeah.

David: I'm very-

Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes

David: ... I've never thought about that before.

Seth: Okay. So yes, let's get there. So-

David: Okay, okay

Seth: ... let me, let me kinda confuse you a little bit more.

David: [laughs] Great. I can't wait.

Seth: First, if we just stayed in the Egypt narrative for a second.

David: Okay. Yep, I can do that.

Seth: Out of Egypt, God calls his son, and where does he go next? The wilderness.

David: The, yes.

Seth: So the wilderness is not a home.

David: No.

Seth: It's ki- a kind of exile, you could suppose.

David: Yeah. It's a place of exile, yeah.

Seth: Right. And we'll get to this in a second, but whenever Moses was in Egypt, what happens next? He is exiled from Egypt because he murders a man and goes to Midian.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: So both in Moses's story and in Israel's story, after leaving Egypt, they spend a time homeless.

David: Right, in the wilderness.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: In the wilderness. That happens at the end of Israel's history, too.

David: Right, when they go into exile.

Seth: When they go into exile in Babylon.

David: Right.

Seth: So, like, we have connected ideas here.

David: Yes.

Seth: But what's kind of even more confusing is that Jeremiah 31 is almost entirely good news.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: It-

David: Yeah, that's the, like, new covenant stuff is in there

Seth: ... it, it describes God's intentions to bring Israel out of exile-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... back to Israel, and there's just, like, really fun language. Everyone's gonna grow grapes in their backyard.

David: Like, yeah.

Seth: Um, everyone's gonna be at peace. All enemies are gonna be destroyed. And, like, everybody in Jeremiah 31 is singing.

David: Okay.

Seth: So it's like, it's like this musical [laughs] like God, like, God comes back, he brings his people back.

David: Jeremiah: The Musical, coming 2023.

Seth: [laughs] And people are just singing-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that God is good. Um, then in the middle of all this great news of God's return-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... you have the quotation that Matthew picks up.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning." But what it's describing in context of Jeremiah 31-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is the cries of all the families whose children have been stolen from them by Babylon.

David: Oh. Where's Ramah?

Seth: Ramah is just north of Jerusalem, uh, for a period of time.

David: Mm.

Seth: It was where Samuel ruled from.

David: Okay.

Seth: So-

David: So, so they're, they're weeping from Israel.

Seth: They're weeping from Israel.

David: I was just curious-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... if they were weeping from exile or weeping in Israel. So-

Seth: No, presumably it's the parents that were left behind.

David: The-

Seth: Babylon's kingim stole all the young-

David: Ah. It's like Daniel's mom.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They're, it's describing the cry of all these people being s- children being stolen by Babylon.

David: Okay. What is this lamentation thing doing inside of the, the Jeremiah 31 musical?

Seth: So this musical's happening, it's great news for Israel, and then the prophet kinda pauses and says, "But I also know everyone's weeping back home right now."

David: Mm.

Seth: "All your chil- God's promising all this, but all your children are still in exile."

David: Right.

Seth: "Parents are still weeping over their lost children." That's, that's the situation. And then Jeremiah says, "But parents," verse 16 and 17, "restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears. Your work will be rewarded."

David: Mm.

Seth: "Your children will return from the land of the enemy. So there is hope for your descendants,' declares the Lord. 'Your children will return to your own land.'" So this is doing a couple different things. We've already mentioned this, Herod isn't just Egyptian, he's Babylonian.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Herod and the religious leadership of Israel embody now the two biggest and baddest threats to Israel that have, has ever existed.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Israel's suffering under her own leadership as badly as they have suffered under Babylonian and Egyptian leadership.

David: Ooh, yeah. Right.

Seth: It's a big deal. But secondly, there is hope that in Jesus, the exile God's people are experiencing in their own country-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is about to end. The children they have lost will be returned to them. So this could be- mean that, like, God intends to give back to parents who have lost their children-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... their children back one day.

David: Right.

Seth: But really specifically here, the hope here is that the child Jesus will return. We're already told that Jesus is the son.

David: Right.

Seth: He's called the child throughout this whole narrative section. Jesus, the child, Israel will return. He is the child of Israel in the flesh, exiled by Herod to Egypt, and in his return, all families who have been separated their, from their children will be reunited with their children, and the exile of God's people will be over forever.

David: Oh, my gosh.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Okay. Let me-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughs]

David: ... let me give it a whack. Uh, I've never heard this before [laughs]-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... legitimately. Oh, I cannot believe that. Okay. So two things mainly it sounds like are happening-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... with this Jeremiah quotationOne is, let's call it on, like, a human level.

Seth: Yeah.

David: On a human level, Jesus is here, and it's great. But then, like, in real terrible-

Seth: He's promised to bring the-

David: Right

Seth: ... he's the new Davidic King.

David: Right.

Seth: He's the one-

David: It, it's a musical.

Seth: Right. Yeah, he- so many good things are happening.

David: But then Herod kills a bunch of actual people's children.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's just, he's like, it's kind of like what Jeremiah was experiencing.

Seth: Yep.

David: He was like, "A lot of hope, a lot of good stuff, but I know the times are really hard."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "But restrain your mourning because God is going to be good on His promises."

Seth: He will return your children to you.

David: He'll return your children to you. So that's like a human-level kind of thing.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But then there's also this giant Jesus as new Israel theological thing that's happening here, where what you're saying is that in the same way that the moms of Israel were crying over their exiled sons who were taken away from them-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... right, and that- that's happening again, but Jesus is the exiled son-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and the weeping mothers are the actual weeping mothers of Israel, who-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... probably lost their kids in Bethlehem.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But Jesus is the new exiled son-

Seth: Who will return to them

David: ... who will fulfill all of the hopes of Jeremiah 31 to return the people to their land, get grapes, sing songs.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: New covenant, new spirit.

Seth: Yeah.

David: All that kind of stuff is gonna come to them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so he is saying, like, the new covenant, this time of return, this-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... freedom from exile is coming in Jesus, even though right now it looks like absolute-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... horror and terror-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in your land.

Seth: Yeah. Another way to say it would be Israel's mothers are crying for their sons to be returned, and when Jesus comes back as a son, he will answer their cries.

David: Mm.

Seth: He will, he will do for them what they want. Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... their desires for their sons and daughters to be returned to them from the grave will be given to them when Jesus comes back out of Egypt.

David: Yeah, that's really good.

Seth: That's on, like, on a very human-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... level, that's what's happening. But, like, on this grand biblical narrative level, Jesus, the Son of God, will return from exile and reestablish all the hopes-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of all mothers of all of Israel's [laughs] history, you know?

David: Right. Yeah. Okay, so I understand the idea of Jesus as the new Son of God who is following the new Moses into a new exodus because the people need to be freed from the new Egypt [laughs]-

Seth: Yeah [laughs]

David: ... and have a new kingdom. I get that. We've laid that out. That makes sense. Why, then, is Matthew putting this double entendre where it's not just the exodus story, it's also the exile story-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and now Jesus is the new exile?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I mean, I get that he's the enfleshed Israel. Israel was in exile, so now he's going into exile. But why does Jesus need to experience this exile before he comes back to the people of Israel?

Seth: As we keep saying, in order for Jesus to bless the world, he needs to follow the story of God's people.

David: Right.

Seth: And being exiled has always been a part of the story of God's people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So if Jesus is not exiled in some sense, he cannot truly be Israel and not truly lead people out of exile because where are all the people? All the people are in exile.

David: Mm.

Seth: Jesus must, as the new leader-

David: Go to them

Seth: ... go to the exiles-

David: Mm

Seth: ... become their leader, and bring them back to their homeland.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he has to go to exile to save them from exile because that's where they all are.

David: Right.

Seth: You can't lead an exilic community out of their oppressive nation-

David: Without going to exile first

Seth: ... without going to them. That's what Moses has to do.

David: Right.

Seth: He goes to Midian-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and then goes back to his people who are enslaved in order to-

David: To free them

Seth: ... to lead them out.

David: This is so interesting, then. I think the g- the good news of that is the extreme lengths that Jesus is going so early on in his life, you know-

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah

David: ... to be with his people.

Seth: Yeah.

David: To be-

Seth: Emmanuel

David: ... Emmanuel.

Seth: Right.

David: God with us.

Seth: Yes. It's also a foreshadowing of his, of his death.

David: When he actually is exiled.

Seth: Wh- why must he die?

David: Mm.

Seth: Because all of us are dead-

David: Right

Seth: ... without him. And so he goes to death to lead an army of previously dead people to new life.

David: Out of the exile of the grave.

Seth: Out of the exile of the grave. Like, this-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Of course Jesus has to go to exile because that's where we all are.

David: Yeah, that's, that's helpful 'cause it's like, cool, so Jesus is the new Israel, I guess he's too good for me. It's like, no, he came to exile.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David: He was cast out of his own people and came to where you are in order to bring you back. There's no place he can't reach.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Okay. That's cool. [gentle music] So we've seen how Jesus as the new Israel has fulfilled two different exile stories or, or exit stories.

Seth: Yeah.

David: One, he has left Egypt, uh, to start a new people under-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... God's law and be the new leader that they need.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that is in him leaving Israel, which is the new Egypt.

Seth: Yes.

David: And then the second one that we've seen is that Jesus is also fulfilling the exile that Babylon brought upon-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... Israel-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... when they took the sons of Israel away from the mothers of Israel.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, and the mothers wept and cried. It was terrible, but there's this promise in the musical of Jeremiah 31 that the sons will return, and that is the hope that Jesus is bringing-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that he is the exiled Israel who's going to return home and bring to fruition all the promises of God.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay, so those are the two things that are kind of-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... swirling around.

Seth: Overlapping.

David: Overlapping.

Seth: With each other, yeah.

David: So I guess what I would be expecting next-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... would be, okay, so we got weeping mothers wanting the musical of Jeremiah 31-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to come true, which would, would be, "Let's return to Israel-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and grow some grapes," you said. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: So, uh, so what's next?

Seth: That's right, but we also have to remember that when we say return to Israel-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in Jesus's time period, we're also saying-Returning to Egypt

David: Yeah, the spiritual new Egypt

Seth: So it's almost as if the hope of returning to Israel out of exile is happening at the same time Moses returns to Egypt to lead his people out of slavery. The-

David: That is confusing

Seth: Is, is that-

David: I, I get what you're saying, but that is like mental gymnastics to keep up with

Seth: Yeah, because, I mean, because th- Matthew has stacked the images for us-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that Israel and Egypt are both the hope and the problem-

David: Right

Seth: ... at the same time

David: 'Cause what you're s- so what you're saying is when Jesus is gonna be called out of Egypt basically to return to Israel-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and I'm talking about-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... actual geographical places right now

Seth: Yes

David: ... that is two things are happening. One is Jesus is the new Moses actually leaving Egypt to go start the new people of God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? But something else is happening because Israel, where he's going, is, is the new Egypt, and so he's also Moses coming into Egypt to condemn Pharaoh, and [laughs] it's so, it's so ridiculous.

Seth: Um, yeah.

David: [laughs]

Seth: I think what helps explain our confusion a little bit-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is to remember a little more concretely in our minds that before Moses actually led God's people out of E- Egypt, he spent some time in Midian.

David: Oh, yeah

Seth: So this is, it's kind of a weird narrative detail, but it actually ends up being really important. So in the Exodus story, Moses is born in Egypt under the rule of an infanticidal king-

David: Right

Seth: ... afraid of losing his power, right? And interestingly enough, Moses is also an heir to the throne of Egypt. He's-

David: Right

Seth: ... Pharaoh's son, he- or adopted son, at least.

David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: And so similarly, Jesus is born under the rule of an infanticidal king-

David: Yes

Seth: ... who's afraid of losing his power to Jesus, who's the rightful heir to the throne of the Jews.

David: I see. So i- in this first time when s- when, uh, when Matthew says, "Out of Egypt I will call my son," this maps on most closely not to Israel leaving Egypt in the Exodus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It is most closely related to Moses-

Seth: Moses, yes

David: ... leaving Egypt on the lamb.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay

Seth: And what happens next, Moses leaves on the lamb to Midian, where he encounters a priest, he gets married, he has a son, and then we're told this in Exodus 2:23. "During that long period, the king of Egypt died." And now let me read for you Matthew 2:20. God appears to Joseph in a dream. He says, "Take up the child and the mother in the land of Israel because those who are trying to take the child's life are dead."

David: Ah, same thing.

Seth: Same thing happens.

David: Yep

Seth: And so Joseph gets up, returns to Israel, and what happens next in Exodus is that God hears the cries of Israel in slavery, and in the very next verse, i- the verses in chapter three are where God speaks through the burning bush, calling Moses to lead his people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: In the very next verses here, God speaks to Joseph to bring Jesus back to his people.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Does that ma-

David: That, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah.

Seth: Does that, does that, does ... You see the parallels?

David: So that, that, that dream where, where God... Oh. Oh, no, it is the angel of the Lord still, where the angel of the Lord says, "Rise and take the child, for those who sought the child's life are dead," that's the new burning bush moment. Is that what you're saying?

Seth: That's right, yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: That, that's right. There's very strong similarities between the way that Matthew has recorded Jesus's life-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the way that Israel's history worked out in the Book of Exodus. Herod dies. He's already heard the cries of his people exiled in Bethlehem w- mourning the loss of their sons.

David: Yeah

Seth: And then God speaks in a dream to Joseph to send his family back to Israel to save them from their exile-

David: Mm

Seth: ... just as Joseph is sent back into Israel to save his pe- sent back into Egypt.

David: Or Mo- Moses.

Seth: Moses is sent back into-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh-

David: Egypt to save his people, Israel

Seth: ... Egypt. And the story says-

David: Yep

Seth: ... Joseph is sent back into Israel to save the weeping mothers of Bethlehem from their exile.

David: All these different flips of nations, and is it the real one or the spiritual one, or it's-

Seth: Right, yeah

David: ... whose name is it? It's so hard to keep it all straight, but okay, that makes a ton of sense. So when Jesus is returning to Israel after his time in Egypt, that is precipitated by the death of Herod-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... just like Moses was in the wilderness-

Seth: That's right

David: ... until Pharaoh died.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then Moses goes back into Egypt to say, "Let my people go," after-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the burning bush moment.

Seth: That's right.

David: And Jesus is gonna come back into Israel to free them-

Seth: Yep

David: ... after Joseph's burning bush moment with God saying, "Those who are seeking this child's life are dead. You can go back in." So why that parallel, and, like, what is Matthew trying to, like-

Seth: Right

David: ... set up in our brain for, "Okay, Jesus is coming back into-

Seth: Right

David: ... the Israel/Egypt"?

Seth: Yeah.

David: What are we supposed to be thinking? What's that narrative tension that he's-

Seth: So-

David: ... trying to pull out?

Seth: Again, like, Jesus is Israel in the flesh.

David: Right, yep, has to replay the story.

Seth: And he's increasingly, as we said before, a new Moses.

David: Mm.

Seth: Moses, importantly, was the founder of the nation of Israel.

David: Mm, yep.

Seth: He was the one who began it as a nation.

David: Right, because of, like, based on the covenant, sort of?

Seth: Yeah, because he-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... l- led a freedom movement out of Egypt-

David: Right

Seth: ... and then ratified God's people as a people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... on Mount Sinai with a constitution-

David: Right

Seth: ... called the Ten Commandments-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and everyone, and God pledged himself to the people, and the people pledged themselves to God. That's when Israel became a nation.

David: A nation, yeah.

Seth: So Moses was the father of the nation of Israel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And Jesus increasingly is being shown as the father-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of a new nation as well.

David: Okay

Seth: And importantly, as a father of a new nation who will lead his people out of slavery, out of exile, out of weeping, and into this musical land-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of Jeremiah 31 where there is peace and prosperity and goodness for all of God's people.

David: Yeah, so I guess I would expect the next part of the story to be Jesus coming back and going up to the religious powers that be and say, "Let my people go," or something.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Yeah [laughs] but, like-

Seth: And that's exactly what you'll get.

David: Oh, is it? 'Cause I'm, I'm in-

Seth: In, in chapter three you will, we will get there.

David: Oh, okay

Seth: Because the next thing that happens is the woes against the Pharisees in the mouth of John the Baptist.

David: Oh, stop.

Seth: So it's like [laughs]

David: Come on. Okay, but we're not going there today.

Seth: We're not, we're not going there today.

David: Okay, so staying in, Jesus comes back to Israel, and particularly he comes back to the District of Galilee and a city called Nazareth.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: And this is an odd detail to end the birth narrative-

David: Right

Seth: ... of Jesus

David: 'Cause it goes to John the Baptist after this.

Seth: Yeah. We're, so we jump-

David: So this is like the big conclusion climax moment.

Seth: Yeah, we jump 30 years in the future after this moment. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: So like this is the m- this is a big deal. This is-

David: Oh my gosh

Seth: ... a big point. And it's-

David: This would be, if this was a Netflix series, this would be the cliffhanger-

Seth: This is the cliffhanger ending

David: ... at the end of the episode.

Seth: And it is weird. "He went and lived in a town called Nazareth"

David: Dun, dun, dun. Oh, I mean, I don't really know why that's important.

Seth: [laughs] "So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene."

David: Yeah. So weird. I do know, I do know this tidbit. J- I know just enough to be dangerous.

Seth: Okay.

David: That-

Seth: What do you know?

David: I know that, well, I can see it in, even in just my Bible, that there's no quotation marks around this fulfilled Nazarene language.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And there's no like footnote telling me what verse it comes from.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So what I think I know is this fulfilled thing of, that the prophet said that he will be called a Nazarene isn't actually in the Bible. [laughs]

Seth: Um, you would be pretty correct in that, actually.

David: Okay [laughs] yeah.

Seth: Um-

David: 'Cause I've tried to find it before. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, there is no prophecy in Scripture-

David: In Scripture

Seth: ... or even in ancient Jewish literature-

David: Okay, I was wondering about that

Seth: ... that says that he will be a Nazarene.

David: So what is happening here?

Seth: Um, well, so you noticed a couple details already. There's no quotation marks here like there was for-

David: Jeremiah or Hosea

Seth: ... yeah, that's right. We're also told that Matthew says, "The prophets," plural-

David: Oh

Seth: ... say something.

David: I didn't even catch that.

Seth: And you miss this in English, but in Greek you have a word that signifies like the beginning of a quotation normally-

David: Uh-huh, yep

Seth: ... that's missing from the Greek right here.

David: Mm.

Seth: So what that makes you feel like when he says, "The prophets say", he's not thinking about an actual quotation-

David: Quote

Seth: ... but like a theme developed across-

David: All the prophets

Seth: ... all the prophets.

David: Yeah, 'cause you're right, in, in leading up to the Hosea prophecy it says, "Spoken by the prophet"-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... singular, and then leading up to Jeremiah, same thing, singular prophet.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And you have those quotation formulas-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... leading up to them. You have plural prophets and no quotation formula, so it's a theme across the prophets saying, you know, if you kinda synthesize some stuff happening in the prophets, you would guess he would be a Nazarene. Is that what you're saying? [laughs]

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay. [laughs]

Seth: That's right.

David: What ... Okay, I can't even come close to feigning that-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... I know what's happening here, so lay it out.

Seth: O- obviously, as many things the Bible are, this is, this is probably the most debated thing I'll say all day.

David: Okay.

Seth: But-

David: That means it's gonna be my favorite thing you say. [laughs]

Seth: This is gonna be your favorite, my favorite thing. I'll g- start with my favorite idea.

David: Okay.

Seth: That-

David: So this is one idea out of many from the scholars you've read

Seth: ... the one out of two that seem to be the most likely.

David: Okay.

Seth: And I think maybe the best way will, will end up being both of them.

David: Okay, great.

Seth: So just to lead into this point, this is the capstone of Matthew's argument he's been making for two chapters. Jesus is the son of the queenly Mary and the kingly Joseph.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He is a new Moses figure who will come and deal with the corrupt leadership of Israel, that have become like Egypt, and bring God's people back away from exile and give them this musical future-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... where all God's people's dreams come true, and even perhaps their dead sons will be returned to them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay? How do you cap that argument off?

David: By calling him a Nazarene.

Seth: You call it... Yeah, so like-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... so I'm expecting something big right now.

David: Yeah, right, yeah.

Seth: The way that I think this gets the weight it deserves is to think about Hebrew words for a moment.

David: Oh, great.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Let's think about Hebrew words.

Seth: So that word Nazarene is the Greek word Nazoraios.

David: Okay, yeah.

Seth: Nazoraios. As we've said before, there's no biblical quotation where somebody is called a Nazarene.

David: Right.

Seth: We have one biblical quotation where somebody's called a Nazarite.

David: Yes.

Seth: And that is from the Book of Samson.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Or not the Book of Samson, the Book of-

David: The Book of Judges

Seth: ... Judges-

David: Talking about Samson

Seth: ... in which Samson is a very morally complicated figure. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: But nevertheless, he does save people from enemies. So-

David: Is he a, does he take the Nazarite vow?

Seth: Yes.

David: Or he is a, or is he a Nazarite?

Seth: He, he takes the Nazarite vow.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But that type of per- a person who takes a Nazarite vow-

David: Could be called a Nazarite

Seth: ... is called a Nazarite, yes.

David: Okay, okay, okay.

Seth: Um-

David: But like, 'cause I don't think like he wasn't from the town of Nazarene or anything.

Seth: No. That, that-

David: Nazareth.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: So you have a similar-sounding word there.

David: Yes.

Seth: A Nazarite.

David: Yeah, and the, and that vow was like, "Don't cut your hair. Don't drink wine."

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: But what's... And we'll get there.

David: Oh, oh, okay, okay.

Seth: And what's interesting about that is that the Hebrew letters-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... are the same letters as this Greek word right here. N-

David: Oh, so-

Seth: ... Z-R, Nazoraios.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Nazar, N-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... Z-R.

David: So it's, he's, he's doing transliteration there.

Seth: Yeah, he's doing this kind of weird transliteration work. So you have a character in biblical history-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that was called a Nazarite-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... a Na- a, a Nazir who saved God's people.

David: Yep.

Seth: And what were Nazarites? So go back to the Book of Numbers chapter 6, where it describes a Nazarite for the first time.

David: And that's someone who would do the Nazarite vow?

Seth: Someone who would take the Nazarite vow.

David: Okay.

Seth: A Nazir, a Nazar.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And this person basically chose willingly to take on the lifestyle of the high priest.

David: Okay.

Seth: So this person would refuse to drink alcohol, like the high priests were not supposed to drink alcohol when they went to the temple.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They weren't supposed to cut their hair, which is kind of an odd one. We're not told the high priests are supposed to do that, but some people suggest that might be like-A symbol of humanity in the garden. A wild man.

David: Oh.

Seth: Like Adam wouldn't have had a razor. He would've been o- in his natural state.

David: Sure.

Seth: So-

David: I've also heard, like, ah, not cutting hair is a sign of wholeness.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause a lot of the Levitical laws are about, like, not tampering with-

Seth: That's right

David: ... two things, but keeping things whole-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and perfect.

Seth: And so either way-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... whatever they mean, the purpose of those things was to set somebody apart for a holy service.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: This was a dedicated and a holy person dedicating their lives to some purpose on God's behalf.

David: It was self-elected.

Seth: It was a, yeah, it was a thing that you could do on your own.

David: Right.

Seth: So this-

David: Like-

Seth: ... a ch- a self-chosen vow of holiness expressed.

David: Mm. I might not be a Levite, but I'm a be a Nazarite.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right, yeah. And so you could choose to become like the priesthood-

David: Mm

Seth: ... through these things. You couldn't touch a dead body like the priests, whatever, so you have this vow you could take-

David: Right

Seth: ... to become a nazir-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... which was to set yourself apart as holy for a special task given to you by God, perhaps.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay.

David: It's like a nun.

Seth: Yeah, something like that-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... where you, like, take these special vows.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, so it's-

David: 'Cause you're like, a nun's not a priest.

Seth: That's right.

David: But they often inhabit very similar lives to priests.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: So I'm like-

Seth: That's right. That's, that, that-

David: ... trying to think about a nun versus priest

Seth: ... that's a good ig-

David: Okay

Seth: ... a good analogy. So, and then the only other time we get the letters, the Hebrew letters [laughs]

David: Nazir

Seth: ... nazir is in the word nezer. [laughs]

David: Okay. Where, what's that?

Seth: It means branch.

David: Branch.

Seth: And branch is the way that the prophets talked about a coming Davidic king-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... who would reestablish God's nation.

David: Right.

Seth: So what's interesting here is he's like, "And as the prophets have said, he will be called a nezer." That could mean that he is somebody set apart who's chosen to elect to be holy for a special purpose by God, like the high priest-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who is als- a nazir, but who is also a nezer, a branch, somebody from the line of David who will rule God's people. And Matthew's like, "And isn't it curious? He was born in Nazaros." [laughs]

David: Mm.

Seth: You know?

David: Mm.

Seth: Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... I, I think he's, like, doing this interesting punning wordplay-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... off the idea, off, off the letters N-Z-R. [laughs]

David: Yeah. Well, I mean, think about, too, he, he k- kinda started this whole birth narrative of Jesus referencing Isaiah 7-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and the sign of the virgin birth-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and you shall call him Emmanuel. Well, right after that is-

Seth: Okay

David: ... in Isaiah 9, you have this language where you have the root of Jesse-

Seth: That's right

David: ... this branch of Jesse coming out.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So it's like if you had that section of Isaiah ringing in your head-

Seth: You would have-

David: ... and then you see the transliterated Hebrew letters for nazir-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... being nezer-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like this branch, you're like, "Oh, I see what you did there."

Seth: Right.

David: He's, like, it's, he's born in Branchtown.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's-

David: Nazareth is Branchtown.

Seth: Or it's-

David: And he-

Seth: ... Holy and Set Apart Town. Like-

David: Holy and Set Apart Branchtown.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And he's the holy and set apart branch.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I wonder if that's the capstone of his, of his argument.

David: Oh.

Seth: Who is Jesus, then? What does it mean that he was born in Nazareth? It means that he's been set apart b- for a holy purpose. He will be like Samson, who defeats God's enemies, and he is the branch of David-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the descendant of King David, ready to take on the throne.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the actual final Son of God to bring about all the hopes.

Seth: Yes.

David: And what's cool is then you, you've got in the genealogy, you know, he's the son of David, the son of Abraham. It's like we've done the son of Abraham stuff.

Seth: Right, right, right, right.

David: And then by naming him the nazir-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... at the end, it's like, oh, and he's the son of David 'cause he's the branch.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: So I-

David: That's super cool.

Seth: I r- really like that way of understanding the ending, that that's the capstone of Matthew's argument.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Who is Jesus?

David: Yeah.

Seth: What were you gonna say?

David: I was gonna say, so you said there were two things.

Seth: Yes.

David: And one was the branch, and one was the holy set apart?

Seth: I said there's two ways to interpret this passage.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's one way.

David: Oh, that was one way.

Seth: That together-

David: Okay

Seth: ... the prophets-

David: Yep

Seth: ... speak of a branch-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and of this holy and set apart nazir-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... who is holy to be the Davidic branch to save God's people.

David: Wow.

Seth: So I think that's one connected idea.

David: Okay.

Seth: So the other idea leans into the fact that there is never a town mentioned in any of the prophets called Nazareth.

David: Right.

Seth: There's no expectation in the Old Testament that Jesus would be called a Nazarene.

David: Nope.

Seth: And so maybe that's the point. God's Messiah will come from nowhere. The son of Joseph, the new Moses, will be unlike Moses in that he won't be raised in an Egyptian palace. He'll be a, a nobody from a backwater.

David: Mm.

Seth: Jesus will be a humble Messiah with humble beginnings. And so that's the other way to take it, which I also kind of like. And this idea of a, a humble and unrecognized prophet does exist throughout the prophecies. In Zechariah, there's this king that comes who's rejected by his people. Uh, but in Isaiah 53, we have-

David: Oh, yeah, the suffering, rejected servant

Seth: ... yeah, this really powerful image of a suffering, rejected servant.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he s- it says this: "He grew up before him like a tender shoot." Interesting, though.

David: Oh, a little, little branch.

Seth: A little branch. "And like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. Despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, familiar with pain, people hid their faces from him. He was despised. We held him in low self-esteem," or low-

David: Mm

Seth: ... a low esteem.

David: Right.

Seth: Which is kinda the way Nazareth is used throughout the Gospels.

David: Right. Oh, you're from Nazareth?

Seth: Can anything, can anything good come from Nazareth?

David: Right.

Seth: So I wonder if he's maybe s- just setting himself up-

David: Right

Seth: ... for the ways that Nazareth becomes this shorthand for, for a backwater, for humility.

David: Well, even, um, even Israel himself, you know, as the Son of God-Is, is talked about that way in Deuteronomy, where he's like, "Why did I choose you, Israel? Is it 'cause you were some big fancy nation? No, you were a nobody from backwater of nowhere-

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And that's why I chose you."

Seth: That's right.

David: And so you take that with everything else that you've said, and there is this prophetic expectation that the Messiah might come from nowhere.

Seth: Right.

David: Which is also interesting then thinking about how Hebrews talks about how Jesus fulfills Melchizedek, who kinda just-

Seth: Oh

David: ... came outta nowhere.

Seth: Oh, yeah.

David: And there is this, like, out of nowhereness of the-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... expectations that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... people might've had. So-

Seth: So i-

David: I tend to like the branch one better, but this is interesting.

Seth: Yeah, like, 'cause He's the embodiment of Israel's humility.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The least of all the nations.

David: Right.

Seth: But He's also the embodiment of the Davidic king destined to rule the world. And I think it's interesting, if it, we're supposed to take it more seriously as the Messiah from nowhere, the humble Messiah, it's hard to get around, in Matthew 53 at least, that branch-

David: Right, Isaiah 53

Seth: ... is mentioned right there too.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So these ideas that the king-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the Nazir, the, will also be-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... hu- humble are right there next to each other.

David: Yeah, and I'm like, if Matthew's able to stack Egypt, Israel, and Babylon all together, [laughs] I think he's also able to stack a branch, and a set apartness, and a out of nowhere idea together.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, this is just great writing.

Seth: Just excellent-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... excellent writing.

David: It's so fantastic.

Seth: But that is his recap then.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So who is Jesus? Who is this child that's born? He's the humble king from nowhere.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Who's also the branch that will rule the world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So weeping women.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Your sons will be returned to you.

David: Mm.

Seth: So exiled people, I'm coming to create a new nation out of you, save you from your oppressive leadership, shame them, and lead you to a new home.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's what I've come to do.

David: Wow. Okay. And so Jesus comes to do all of that, and then next week we're gonna look at the, I guess, the pathway of Exodus? 'Cause that was-

Seth: Yeah, so what's next in the Exodus story is Moses going and confronting the leadership of Pharaoh.

David: Oh, right. Yep.

Seth: And so Jesus is now, with John the Baptist, is going to confront the leadership of Israel.

David: Okay. Well, I'm very excited to talk about that then. Well, thank you guys for joining us in our kind of journey to understand the Old Testament through Matthew's eyes, to read the Old Testament according to Matthew. It's been super fun. I'm learning a ton.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I hope you guys are too. Thank you for going through all the different names and geographies-

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: ... and flipped upside down ideas.

Seth: And if anybody can figure out how to talk about out of Egypt/Israel, I mean, Israel/Egypt better than us, please let us know. [laughs]

David: Just let us know a better shorthand for that. So excited to jump into chapter three next week, and then, uh, we'll see you guys there. So thanks for joining us.

Outro: [Instrumental music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [Instrumental music]

Related Resources

Free videos sent straight to your inbox.

Out of Egypt I Called Jesus: How Matthew Reveals the Messiah as Israel in the Flesh

Show Notes

The Necessity of a New Israel

Jesus Replays the Story of Genesis and Joseph

Israel Has Become Egypt

Herod as Both Egypt and Babylon

Jesus as the New Moses Returning to His People

The Nazarene: A Humble King and Holy Branch

Related Resources

Introduction to Matthew

View our devotional on Matthew 1:1-17

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the The Bible According to Matthew podcast

Listen to the Matthew 1: Why Genealogies are Awesome podcast

Listen to the Matthew 1: Why a Virgin Birth? podcast

Listen to the Matthew 2: King Joseph, and Wise Kings from the East podcast

Listen to the Matthew 2: Out of Egypt I Called Jesus podcast