Seth: [electronic music] Jesus comes from a long line of kings who provide for the needs of their people, and Jesus is a prince like his kingly fathers.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he will come, and he will rule like them. He will provide what his people need, preeminently like with bread. He'll actually feed people bread through miracles. He'll give us our daily bread when we ask him in prayer, but also through something far more significant, like he is the bread of eternal spiritual resurrection life.
Intro: [electronic music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [electronic music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We're continuing our look at the Book of Matthew and how he's teaching us to read our Old Testament to see how it's all about Jesus. Seth, how you feeling today?
Seth: I'm feeling great. I am feeling... The more I study the Book of Matthew-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as a beat-for-beat replay of the history of Israel and the life of Jesus, the more I feel really invigorated to read my Old Testament-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and overwhelmed by the amount of information it seems that Matthew is trying to give me.
David: Yeah. Our talk last week just made me see, and in the genealogies, just made-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... me see how much he is packing in to every word.
Seth: Yeah. And we-
David: I'm like, man
Seth: ... we talked last week about the birth narrative or the conception narrative-
David: The conception, the conception narrative
Seth: ... of Jesus, and talked about Mary as, like, the queen of a new creation, for from her womb and from Jesus, all new life will come.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We talked about Jesus and what his name, it means to be God with us, and we didn't talk about Joseph at all. [laughs]
David: Yeah, we just teed it up. We were like, Joseph, uh, has the set of three dreams-
Seth: Yep
David: ... which mirrors the Joseph of the, of the Genesis story, who was a dreamer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we just kinda set that up and left it alone.
Seth: So I wanna start by talking about, a little bit about Joseph today.
David: Which one?
Seth: Both Josephs.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Joseph ben Jacob and Joseph ben David.
David: Oh.
Seth: Maybe to make a fun little-
David: I, I still don't know which is which. [laughs]
Seth: I'll explain.
David: Oh, good.
Seth: And then move into Herod and the star and the wise men.
David: Okay. So where's a good place to start that conversation? We did the conception story. We know about the importance of Mary's virginity.
Seth: Mm.
David: We know about Joseph as a new Isaiah. If you don't know anything what we're talking about, go back to the last episode. But now he has these series of three dreams. Um, and what are those dreams?
Seth: So the first one, we've, we read last week. After Joseph decides to divorce Mary quietly, an angel comes to him in a dream and calls him, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife," and informs him that the child is conceived of the Holy Spirit. He wakes up, and then he marries her. That's the first dream.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so we've got some things to talk about, even in that phrase, son of David.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So-
David: We didn't even talk about that
Seth: ... Joseph, Joseph ben David, Joseph, son of David.
David: Mm.
Seth: Ben is just the He- the Hebrew way to say son of.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: I-
David: I've been David before too.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: I still am David-
Seth: Um
David: ... but also been David.
Seth: Joseph, the son of David. So why are we being cued up that way?
David: Mm.
Seth: And then how does this connect to the other Joseph, who was a dreamer, all the way back in the Book of Genesis?
David: Mm.
Seth: Matthew's taking us through the history of Israel, and Joseph the Dreamer, the father of Jesus, connects us to the Book of Genesis, the very beginning of Israel's history, as somebody, as a kingly figure-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who saved God's people back then as well. So-
David: Okay
Seth: ... let's do that.
David: That's a lot.
Seth: That's so much.
David: Okay, so an angel comes to Joseph in a dream because he's thinking about divorcing Mary quietly now that she's pregnant, but this angel comes to him, and before he even gives the content of the message, the angel says, "Joseph," number one is important, and then, "Son of David"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is important.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So un- which one do you wanna unpack first?
Seth: Let's do both at the same time for ease of ease. [laughs]
David: For ease of ease?
Seth: For ease of ease. [laughs]
David: But Joseph, the original Joseph, wasn't a son of David.
Seth: Okay, fine.
David: So.
Seth: We'll talk about Joseph-
David: All right
Seth: ... first.
David: I win.
Seth: So i- in the Book of Genesis-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Joseph was one of the sons of Jacob-
David: Right
Seth: ... the forefather of the entire nation of Israel.
David: Also, also known as Israel.
Seth: Also known as Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: This is one of his 12 sons.
David: Right.
Seth: And during Joseph's lifetime, he was supposed to be the ruler of all of his brothers.
David: Oh, oh, because of all the dreams he had.
Seth: Because of all the dreams he had.
David: Right.
Seth: His brothers resented him for this. He was put into a cave, sold as a slave to Egypt, but then became a king-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Egypt, the second in command-
David: Right
Seth: ... the vizier to Pharaoh.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he, during his reign, um, interpreted more dreams of Pharaoh, had more dreams of his own, and through those, was able to provide food for the rest of his brothers during a time of famine.
David: Right.
Seth: And then at the end of his life, all of Israel comes to Egypt and sets up a new community there.
David: Right.
Seth: And they have land there, and they're able to live there in peace for a significant amount of time before they end up being slaves.
David: Right. That's the story of the first Joseph.
Seth: That's the story of the first Joseph.
David: The, the dreamer who is like a king, who saves his people-
Seth: From-
David: ... by ruling and interpreting dreams.
Seth: And providing bread.
David: And providing bread-
Seth: Providing bread
David: ... in the midst of famine. Okay.
Seth: And so-
David: He's also the reason they all ended up in Egypt.
Seth: He is. [laughs]
David: But it was-
Seth: For-
David: It was good for a little while though. [laughs]
Seth: It was good for a little while, then not so great about 400 years later.
David: Yeah. [laughs]Okay. So what is that- What, what is, what is Matthew trying to do by connecting us to Joseph Bin-
Seth: [laughs] Jacob
David: ... Jacob-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to Joseph Bin-David?
Seth: Yes.
David: What's he doing there? Or, or maybe a more interesting question is are you just getting carried away with Old Testament links?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, sure, Joseph was a common name, get over it.
Seth: Right.
David: Is Matthew really doing that?
Seth: Well, I mean, if it wasn't proven by all the proof texting we did in the first episode-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... I feel like I'm well within my rights to read Matthew as explicitly following the history of Israel as I am.
David: That's true, yes.
Seth: So it's like he's given us a history of God's people, he's given us allusions to the creation story and to the Holy Spirit hovering over the face of the waters-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... hovering over the womb of Mary. Like, we've been primed all the way through the Book of Genesis. And what happens after the creation narratives and the story of Jacob and the genealogies? The story of Joseph-
David: Right
Seth: ... before the slavery of God's people.
David: Right.
Seth: And the slavery of God's people is gonna get picked up again in the next chapter.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: So it's, it's, it's not just that, okay, look, Matthew's following beat for beat the Old Testament, and especially starting in Genesis, and so what happens next is the story of Joseph.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we have a guy named Joseph.
Seth: Right.
David: But it's also the fact that this Joseph dreamed-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that, that Joseph will end up taking people to Egypt-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that there's other things that are mapping on to the story.
Seth: Yep.
David: It's not just like... We're not-
Seth: No.
David: What I would say, I think what I wanted to flag is you're not just going like, "Oh, his name's Joseph, let's riff on that."
Seth: No.
David: Matthew's doing something wider here.
Seth: Right.
David: So, so then my next question is why is he looping in the Genesis Joseph-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the story of Jesus?
Seth: Let me prove to you a little bit more then-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the fact that these two Josephs are-
David: Connected
Seth: ... connected.
David: Okay.
Seth: So one more thing is that both Josephs are like kings, is wh- which is something that I've said-
David: Mm
Seth: ... before. So Joseph, the first Joseph, was the king, the second in command of Egypt.
David: Right.
Seth: Kingly figure. And then this Joseph is explicitly called son of David.
David: Oh.
Seth: It's a royal-
David: That's a royal name
Seth: ... it's a royal name.
David: He's second in command to David.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the fact that they both have dreams is actually a fairly kingly privilege in the story of the Old Testament.
David: Oh, that's true. Like, even Nebuchadnezzar had dreams.
Seth: Right. Solomon had dreams.
David: Hezekiah I think had a dream.
Seth: It's like it's dreams and visions seem to be the purview of the leaders of God's people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Particularly the kings of God's people. So the fact that they both have dreams set them up as these kingly-type figures.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're also told that the job of a good king is to administer justice.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? And to do so with mercy on behalf of those that need it, right?
David: Oh, and we're told that Joseph wanted to obey the law.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh.
Seth: And interestingly, it's like he's faithful to the law. In one translation I even read said he administers the law.
David: Oh, interesting.
Seth: So he is like this good king who's administering the rights of the law, his right to a divorce for someone who's been unfaithful-
David: Right
Seth: ... but doing so with mercy.
David: Right.
Seth: By doing it quietly and not publicly shaming them.
David: But then when God comes and gives him further clarity, he obeys God instead of just the letter of the law.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right.
Seth: Also, both Josephs ensure God's people have bread when they're hungry. This one's a little bit weirder.
David: Okay.
Seth: But when Joseph, Old Testament Joseph-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Joseph bin Jacob interprets Pharaoh's dreams-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... he stockpiles all this bread-
David: Right
Seth: ... for the coming famine, and then he passes it out. Similarly, Joseph, the son of David, Jesus' father, protects his son, Jesus, and brings him to Bethlehem.
David: The house of-
Seth: The house-
David: ... bread
Seth: ... of bread. And as you know from the rest of Jesus' life, he calls himself the bread of life-
David: Right
Seth: ... who provides bread for his people. [laughs]
David: Yeah. That is interesting that Joseph the dreamer in the New Testament takes his people for refuge to the house of bread.
Seth: To... Right. [laughs]
David: I mean, you can literally hear Jacob and the other sons-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... his other sons going to Egypt singing a song like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... "We're going to the house of bread in Egypt 'cause we need lots of bread."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And more-
Seth: More, more connections between the two in Joseph, the son of Jacob, holds audience with a whole bunch of foreigners because all the people are coming to get food from him, and he accept gifts from all these different people, and then he gives them bread in return. Joseph, the father of Jesus, has foreigners come to his house in the Magi and give him gifts, and he return, and he gives them his son to trust in as the new Messiah.
David: Oh, my gosh.
Seth: And just like the first Joseph ran from a house to avoid sexual immorality with Potiphar's wife-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... this Joseph also abstains, shows sexual restraint-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by refusing to sleep with Mary.
David: Until she gives birth.
Seth: Until she gives birth to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to Jesus.
David: Interesting.
Seth: So there's a whole bu- And that one's not so much about kingship, but just-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... an interesting parallel between the two characters. But like-
David: Remind me, Seth, never to bait you again to prove something.
Seth: [laughs]
David: No, I'm just kidding. That's awesome.
Seth: And so what I think is interesting here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on, like, a meta note-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so why then Joseph as a king?
David: That's what... Yeah, yeah.
Seth: And I think it's because Mary's already been set up as the queen.
David: Oh, as the, as the-
Seth: She's the queen of the new creation. From her womb, new creation will flow.
David: I see.
Seth: And who rises up to meet her? Who rises from sleep like a new Adam to marry her but the rightful king who does justice, who's merciful, who's a son of David, who listens to God and holds court among the nations to feed the world the bread of life. It's like I feel like Matthew has given us ma- a picture of Mary and Joseph so that you see them as like a new Adam and Eve.
David: A new king and queen.
Seth: A new king and queen-
David: Of a new creation
Seth: ... of a new creation who their son will begin.
David: As the image of God.
Seth: As the image [laughs] of the actual God.
David: The Imago Dei.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Oh, my... That is such a more interesting light in which to paint Joseph than I've ever heard before.
Seth: [laughs]
David: 'Cause usually it's like poor Joseph thought he got cheated on.But instead, the angel told him what the deal was, and so he just kinda quietly sat there and waited for Jesus to be born before he could actually get married.
Seth: No, he, I think Matthew wants us to see him as-
David: A king
Seth: ... a king.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: As a king of a new world order.
David: And that like, I think his sexual restraint-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or his obedience has always been portrayed to me as either he's a paragon of morality.
Seth: Yep.
David: Wow, what a righteous man, that he would wait.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, or something like that. Or in a lot of narratives, they just overlook all these details, and so Joseph just comes off as passive or kind of just like a-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... a, a milquetoast dad figure.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And here you're setting up all these biblical categories, and he's this strong-willed, well-read, judicious king creating-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a new world order alongside his virgin bride.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And I'm like, whoa, that's so much cooler.
Seth: Yeah. And it's like, I think there's a, a, something to be said for the picture of humble Mary accepting the call from God and a humble Joseph doing something that was costly, that-
David: Sure
Seth: ... and I think that's right.
David: Right.
Seth: We should see that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They are paragons of virtue in that sense.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They are good people to emulate. But I-
David: And maybe, like, even like Luke's gospel might pick up more on that.
Seth: Yes.
David: Maybe that's more of his highlight.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But Matthew-
Seth: I, I think Matthew really wants us to see something special in Joseph, the son of David, who is repeating and being like the Joseph of the Old Testament.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that j- comparison to the Joseph of the Old Testament continues all the way to the end of chapter two, because he has multiple dreams that provide God's people with salvation. He holds court with the Gentiles.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: All that stuff happens over the course of two chapters.
David: Okay.
Seth: So that's that character of Joseph develops over time.
David: Okay, Seth-
Seth: Okay
David: ... you've put enough footnotes in here.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I'm convinced. I think everyone else is convinced. Um, so other than the king thing, so what-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is my next question. Why, Link, why do we need... Oh, maybe this is the question.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why do we need a new Joseph?
Seth: Why do we need the first Joseph?
David: Man, I don't know, don't turn it around on me.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I asked you the question. [laughs]
Seth: Israel, God's people, needed the first Joseph to be a leader to save them from famine.
David: A leader to save them from famine.
Seth: And that's what he did when he was in Egypt, right?
David: Mm-hmm, yep.
Seth: And similarly, God's people are still hungry in a spir- in a physical sense, Jesus will provide food for people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But also in a spiritual sense as well. Like, there are hungry people in need of satisfaction from the bread of life.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And Joseph is providing that yet again. We keep saying that what Matthew is doing is he's just giving us categories in this conception narrative and in the genealogies that will play out through the rest of his gospel, and I think he's just giving us another one. What's another way to think about Jesus as the one who satisfies us with his bread of life?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And how do I know that? Well, because even his father was a man who provided bread for a famished people. Why do we need Joseph, son of David, to be like Joseph, the son of Jacob? Because we need to know that Jesus is somebody who will satisfy our desires.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He will give us our daily bread.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know? Like, I think that's what Matthew's doing for us. He's just giving us... Jesus doesn't come out of nowhere-
David: Right
Seth: ... and become our daily bread. He comes from a lineage of people-
David: Of bread givers
Seth: ... of bread giver-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... stretching all the way back to Genesis. He's a son of his father in that sense, both spiritually and physically. [laughs]
David: Yeah. I'm also wondering, like, I, I totally agree with you, and this is not to diminish what you've said, but that does feel kind of like spiritual answer.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we have these spiritual hungerings that Jesus-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... is gonna satisfy. I'm like, okay, yeah, totally, 100%. That's very good news.
Seth: But I mean, also, he will give us our daily bread.
David: Mm-hmm. Like, oh, actual food that we need to eat.
Seth: Yeah, that's, that's the pre- that's the f- one of the first things he teaches us to pray. Give us this day-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... our daily bread.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's, that's what Joseph literally did i- in the Book of Genesis.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He gave God's people-
David: Their daily bread
Seth: ... their daily bread so they would not die.
David: Right. And so I, yeah, I'm wondering then with that is, like, to get more boots on the ground, you, in, in the Genesis story, you do have, um, Jacob and his sons sojourning through the land of Canaan-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... trying to establish a home that Father Abraham, Grandfather Abraham, was promised, and while they're sojourning in the right places, they're fraught with war, uh, immorality. They don't actually end up setting up a permanent residence.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then when they go to Israel, or when they go to Egypt to get the bread, they're then exiled from their home for 400 years, and they-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they have to have the story of Exodus to go back to it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I th- like, I think what's happening, too, is you've got an exiled Israel who is still in enemy-occupied territory-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with the Romans-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and Hellenization-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and all these other things that are happening, and they feel a lot like the Israel we meet, either when they were 70 persons in all under Jacob or when they were a massive multitude enslaved under Egypt. They were still not the people of God they knew that they'd been set apart to be. They weren't rightly constituted as a nation-state. They didn't have the autonomy and law governance that they felt like was their right in God as the people of the garden or the people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that would be given a law. And so it's like, it seems like what, what is being set up here is a new Joseph is coming to call God's people to a place where he will rescue them. Like, 'cause that's what happened-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Egypt. Like, he called them
Seth: Into Egypt
David: Into Egypt in order to free them and send them into the land. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that the next phase in the redemption story is happening.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Come to, come-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... follow Joseph to the house of bread.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then through what he does, through his child, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... through his descendants-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is eventually Moses.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He will lead you into-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, God's kingdom.
Seth: Yeah. Joseph, in the Genesis narrative, Joseph isn't super tightly connected to that broader story of, like, leading them out of there.
David: No.
Seth: But what's interesting is that in chapter two, Joseph-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... will go to Egypt and then come back to Israel [laughs]
David: Right
Seth: ... uh, with Jesus more fully grown. He'll settle in Nazareth and fulfill all these prophecies. So there is, like, in Joseph's n- Joseph, the son of David's narrative-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there is that journey into Egypt and then back into Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in order to provide a new home for God's people.
David: And what's interesting, the Genesis ends with Joseph saying, "I know I've brought you here to Egypt, but we are not supposed to stay here forever."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I know that God will send us back to the home He's promised us in Canaan. So when you go back, take my bones with you. Like, put my bones in a backpack-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and take them back into Israel." So in a way, we're saying, like, well, it was Moses that took-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Israel-
Seth: Right
David: ... out of Egypt and into their kingdom forever.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yes, but J- J- Joseph was still there.
Seth: Right.
David: His bones were with them.
Seth: His bones were there.
David: And so this new Joseph is this living shepherd back-
Seth: Right
David: ... into the land of Israel, out of exile.
Seth: We're just, we're just skipping ahead of the story.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But this is what's gonna happen when Joseph goes to Egypt-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and comes back out of Egypt. We're also supposed to read in that movement to and from Israel and to and from Egypt, the story of Moses as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so that, that's a picture of what happened during Moses' life. God called Israel out of Egypt to go back into their own, into their own land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the bones of Joseph were with them that whole time. Yeah.
David: Yeah. So then, put a bow on this for me before we go into what- whatever you have planned for us next. Why does it matter that Jesus' dad, you know, his, or, you know, however you wanna call him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... [laughs] his father.
Seth: That Jo-
David: Yeah, that, that Jesus' father, Joseph, has these connections to the, the Genesis Joseph? Is, is it just, I mean, I say just, I don't mean to belittle it.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, he'll provide us with bread, and he's a new king for a new creation. I guess those all just feel so big.
Seth: Right.
David: I'm having trouble, like, making it into my heart for like, oh, that's why it's such good news that that's who Joseph is as the father of Jesus.
Seth: I think it, it goes, it does go back to the kingship thing.
David: Mm.
Seth: We'll get to, like, the promises of land in a second. The Joseph story is most closely tied with famine and bread. And what's less big than the fact that I'm hungry? [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know what I mean? Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... it just goes back to the thing I said before about the Lord's Prayer. Joseph was a man who provided the daily bread for his people, and Jesus's father is the same person, is a picture of him. And instead of giving out physical bread to people who are hungry, he's giving us his son, who calls himself the bread of life-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who himself promises to live out his father's legacy well, not only to provide us with spiritual bread, as we've said, but actually the bread we need to survive.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think on, like, just on the boots-on-the-ground level, it's like, if you are an exiled kingdom, if you're an exiled people in enemy-occupied territory, if you are an agricultural economy, [laughs]
David: Right
Seth: ... you know, like, you don't know where your food's coming, I want to have a leader who I can trust to provide me with the food I need-
David: Right
Seth: ... and actually has a family history of doing so, not just back one generation, but centuries and centuries.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Oh, Jesus comes from a long line of people who's always provided for God's-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... hungry. And Jesus is that same person.
David: Yeah, that's really good. I'm also thinking of no- now that you have this picture of the, the needy nations coming to Joseph for bread. And so we, as the needy nations, come to Joseph for bread 'cause we're in famine.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We have no bread. We have nothing to eat. We're starving. We can't even, even though we're in the promised land, in Canaan, we, we don't have what we actually need, and we come to Joseph for bread. And in Genesis, what do they get? They get bread.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: In the Joseph of Matthew, what do we get? We get Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The bread that comes out of the house of bread-
Seth: Yep
David: ... in Bethlehem is the baby Jesus, that he is the bread that will satisfy the nations and that will provide for God's people, like, forever.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Not just, oh, 70 in all, and there's what's-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... constituted the people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of Israel when they came back from Canaan to Egypt. Here's some bread for you. It's like, no, all nations-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... can flock to the house of bread, and the bread that's there for them is the, the baby Jesus. Like, he's the bread from heaven.
Seth: Yeah. And he himself provides bread.
David: [laughs] Yeah. That's cool. [gentle music] Okay, so we start chapter two, and-
Seth: Finally
David: ... Jesus is born. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Now, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king... It's just funny. It's just like, now after Jesus is born.
Seth: Wait.
David: Hold, hold on.
Seth: Wait.
David: The last thing I heard he, is that Joseph isn't going to know his wife until she gives birth. And then the next verse is, "And then after he was born" [laughs] I was like, wait, what about the middle part?
Seth: That nine months isn't important. [laughs]
David: Oh, okay. Okay, good. So after Jesus was born in Bethlehem, we've talked about the significance of Bethlehem being the house of bread.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Bethlehem of Judea.In the days of Herod the king, behold wise men from the east came to Jerusalem saying, "Where is he who has been born King of the Jews?"
Seth: And last line-
David: Oh
Seth: ... finish it out. "We saw his star-
David: Oh, the star
Seth: ... when it rose and have come to worship him."
David: I was like, there's already like nine things-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... I have questions about.
Seth: There's-
David: So I just, I decided to stop. But then the star too.
Seth: The s- the star is like why they're there in the first place.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Walk us through it. What on earth is going on? Because in my opinion, uh, the n- the, the nativity scenes have lied to us all.
Seth: Um, that's probably true.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, my wife collects them.
David: I know.
Seth: [laughs] I sh- I l- and they're-
David: They're beautiful.
Seth: They're beautiful.
David: I love your house at Christmas time.
Seth: [laughs] But yes, they're probably mostly inaccurate.
David: [laughs]
Seth: We've talked a little bit about the figure of King Herod-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that he's like this reincarnated King Ahaz. A wicked king of God's people who is going to-
David: Ignore the sign
Seth: ... ignore a sign of the star in the story, but also of the virgin birth as well. But what causes all the hubbub is the arrival of these wise men from the east.
David: Mm.
Seth: These foreigners coming, looking for a King of the Jews after they see a star in the sky.
David: So a star comes into the sky, which a- and these wise men from the east, they actually see it as a sign and unlike King Herod-
Seth: Mm
David: ... they notice it, pay attention to it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they're, they come and for some reason, they're like, "Hey, we saw a star. Where's the king?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That doesn't seem like a normal question I would ask. [laughs]
Seth: Right. Okay. So-
David: So there's a lot of things going on there. Help me out.
Seth: Yes. So let's start with why the idea of a light appearing in the sky would signal the birth of a king.
David: Mm.
Seth: So a light appearing in the sky to me would not immediately indicate, oh, a king must be born somewhere.
David: No, I would be like, I, I mean, I would be like, "I've never seen that star before, but I bet it was there all along."
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: But, [laughs] but there were people who actually studied the stars who-
Seth: Yeah, and this just comes from an Old Testament idea that the rising of stars would symbolize the rising of kings. So-
David: So what you're telling me is that Mufasa was right.
Seth: Of course I'm saying that. [laughs]
David: [laughs] "Do you know what those stars are, Simba? Those are the kings that have gone before me." So even Lion King knew this, this old lore.
Seth: I think the most famous, one of the most famous passages of scripture about a star is the Book of N- Numbers-
David: Oh
Seth: ... 24:17.
David: Yes.
Seth: This is-
David: Is this one of, uh, Balaam's prophecies?
Seth: This is one of Balaam's prophecies, and he just says, "A star will come out of Jacob."
David: Right.
Seth: "A scepter will rise out of Israel and he will crush the heads of Moab and the skulls of the people of Sheth."
David: Mm.
Seth: And then the Book of Micah also prophesies this as well. So-
David: Yeah, if a star actually came out of Israel, it would like blow up the earth.
Seth: R- yeah. [laughs] Like a, if like a s- a planet-sized-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... celestial object just came out of Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, um-
David: Something else has to be going on there.
Seth: Yeah, so why would a star signal the rise of a king? It's because that's kind of within the Hebrew imagination.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And wise men, or Magi, would've been familiar with the lore of Israel, and also presumably, some people even think these are like followers of the wisdom of Daniel in Babylon.
David: Mm.
Seth: So they came from the east. What's out east? Babylon's out east. Or that's where it used to be anyway.
David: Oh, yeah, and in the Daniel story, they do study the stars.
Seth: And Daniel was the king of the magicians and the king of the astrologers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he taught them to fear the one true God, and s- presumably might have like it-
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, uh, uh, [laughs]
David: I never think of the lingering effects Daniel would've had on the nation of Babylon. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, after being there for the administration of four kingdoms.
David: And doing everything he did, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... his stories would've gone on similarly.
Seth: So we don't know who they are.
David: But that's still very interesting.
Seth: But the idea is that these people out in the east understand the significance of lights in the sky-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that they might precipitate the rise of a king, of a power. And in this case, they think it means the rise of the King of the Jews.
David: Mm.
Seth: And we have Old Testament prophecies to back that up. And what's interesting about that fact is that Herod's title is King of the Jews. So-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... right, so that's his-
David: So they come to the King of the Jews and they say, "Hey, where's the King of the Jews?" And he's like, "I'm right here."
Seth: "I'm right here."
David: And they're like, "No, no, no. We mean the real one."
Seth: The new one.
David: "The new one."
Seth: The new one. The rising one.
David: Oh, the new one, because there's a new star.
Seth: 'Cause there's a new star.
David: Okay. I, I have so many questions.
Seth: Okay. [laughs] Let's conti- Let's go on. So that's what's like happening-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in this, this world.
David: Okay. Where, where do you wanna go now?
Seth: Well, where do you have questions?
David: I, I mean, okay, so my first question is, was a new star made?
Seth: Ah, yes.
David: 'Cause that seems insane.
Seth: Well, I don't think it's a star.
David: Oh, boy. [laughs] All right.
Seth: So all your nativities that have stars, I don't think they're stars, for a couple of like astronomical reasons.
David: Oh.
Seth: So one, we're told that they see the star from the east, but at the same time, Herod is not aware of the star at all.
David: Mm.
Seth: So they can see it from far away, but Herod can't see it right above his head.
David: Is he just ignoring a sign? Or-
Seth: Um, well-
David: Would his own court magicians have been watching, I suppose?
Seth: We're not told.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're just told he, we're just told, like he doesn't recognize that it's even there, but these wise men from the east say it's there.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then after they arrive in Jerusalem, the star proceeds to move.
David: Yeah.
Seth: From-
David: That always weirded me out
Seth: ... from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, which is moving from north to south.
David: Oh.
Seth: And stars only ever move east to west.
David: Right.
Seth: So that would be either God moved a physical star-
David: Right
Seth: ... which I guess is possible.
David: Totally within his unlimited power.
Seth: Um, but so like there's that, and then eventually it stops and its natural light reveals the specific location of a house in which the Messiah lives. That's not the way that natural light behaves either.
David: Right.
Seth: If you had a extremely bright celestial object, it doesn't have a, a ray of light.
David: Mm.
Seth: It just lights up everything.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think the questions you have to be asking is why is Matthew the only gospel writer to use the word star?
David: Oh, is he?
Seth: He's the only one.
David: What do everybody else?
Seth: Well, Mark and John don't even mention a great light.
David: Oh.
Seth: But the Book of LukeHas a light, but he says something different. When the angels appear to the shepherds-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... he says, "The glory of the Lord shone around them."
David: Oh.
Seth: "The glory of God shined." So we only have one other gospel who talks about a light, and he calls the light the glory of God.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay, I've got data points in my head.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I've got a source of light that moves-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that it can hover over a particular location and single places out.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it also can be seen and not seen by particular people, and it's called the glory of God by another author of scripture.
David: Okay.
Seth: So I don't think it's a star.
David: All right.
Seth: I think it's more analogous to the pillar of fire.
David: I knew it.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I knew it. I was like, "I think I have it."
Seth: The pillar of fire-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that led Israel out of Egypt and into their promised land. And if we remember, Matthew's tracking on the-
David: Yep
Seth: ... story of God's people. We're moving out of the Book of Genesis, into the Book of Exodus, and into the promised land.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, in this space and time, God's presence, God's glory, moved by a great pillar of light.
David: Yep, to show people where to go.
Seth: To show people where to go. And we're also told when Paul is converted in the Book of Acts-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there's a great light, but only Paul sees it, and the other two people don't.
David: Mm.
Seth: So there's also precedence for, like, the in- the glory of God appearing, and only those perceptive perceiving it.
David: It happens to Daniel, too.
Seth: It happens to Daniel as well-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... where he can see things other people can't.
David: Right.
Seth: So putting all this in there, I think the best understanding is not that it's a star, but it's like a pillar of fire-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a pillar of cloud, a, a pillar of light.
David: Yeah. Is the word in Matthew, the Greek word, is it astronomical star, or is it light?
Seth: It's the word star.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's the word star. So-
David: Is he, is he riffing on... He's wanting us to think about numbers prophecy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's wanting us to think about the lore of when the, the stars shine, they're kings.
Seth: Yes.
David: But it's like, it's a light-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like a star.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. I'm tracking that.
Seth: Okay.
David: So okay, first off, why [laughs] did God lead Magi from the East using this proprietary, invisible glory light to guide them like he did his people out of Egypt?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, why go to such extremes to bring a couple of, or I don't know how many there were, the, the Magi. Why, why do this with, with them?
Seth: Well, for the reason we've already said. Matthew is describing the history of Jesus like the history of Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: And how did God lead his people out of Egypt? Through a cloud.
David: Right.
Seth: So the same story is being retold in the life of Jesus as we go on, and I think we need to go on to continue to answer some of those questions.
David: Okay.
Seth: But it looks- you look a little confused. But-
David: We didn't... But he's not leading his people out of Egypt, he's bringing the Magi... You're, you're, oh, you're making faces at me.
Seth: [laughs] He's bringing Magi to-
David: To
Seth: ... Israel-
David: Israel
Seth: ... which would've been the promised land.
David: Right.
Seth: So a cloud of-
David: Oh, that's the same kind of trajectory that people-
Seth: Right. So-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a cloud is bringing people who are perceptive and faithful-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... into God's pres- it closer to God's presence and to the Messiah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I, I think this is tracking with the era of history that Matthew wants us to think about.
David: Yeah, it's tracking. I just wanna know why. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, you wanna keep going, though?
Seth: Yeah, let's go- keep going.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, so verse three. "Then King Herod heard this. He was disturbed, and all of Jerusalem with him, and he called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, and asked them where the Messiah was to be born. And they responded, 'In Bethlehem.' This is what the prophet has written." And he quotes from the Book of Micah, "But you, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, are no- by no means the least in Judah, for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people, Israel." So what's interesting here is we have a big, bad guy, the King of the J- Jews.
David: Herod.
Seth: Herod-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who has surrounded himself already with a whole bunch of teachers of the law.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And none of them like the idea that a new King of the Jews has arrived.
David: None of them like it.
Seth: None of them like it.
David: Not just Herod?
Seth: Yeah, all of them. All Jerusalem was disturbed.
David: Oh.
Seth: And when he defines Jerusalem, he says, "They called together the people's chief, the people's chief priests and the teachers of the law."
David: Wait. Why would all of Jerusalem be troubled that the Messiah's coming?
Seth: It's specifically the leadership of Jerusalem.
David: Okay.
Seth: The leadership of Jerusalem.
David: That, I mean, that would make more sense than-
Seth: The religious elite of Jerusalem-
David: Yeah, okay
Seth: ... that are concerned that a new power center is arriving.
David: Because they already have a King of the Jews-
Seth: And they're pretty-
David: ... in Herod
Seth: ... comfortable with the power situation they have currently
David: They like where the power lays.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, uh, if a new king is coming-
Seth: That means their positions of power might be disrupted.
David: Okay.
Seth: So narratively, Matthew is setting up for us the tension that will run through the whole of Jesus's life.
David: Right.
Seth: He'll be in conflict with the Pharisees, the religious leaders, the scribes. Why? Over issues of power. And what's even more fascinating is who are the bad guys right now? It's not the evil nation of Egypt.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: It's Israel.
David: Right, it's their own king.
Seth: It's their own king and the religious leaders who are supposed to be waiting for the Messiah.
David: Right.
Seth: But all of a sudden, they're being set up as the antagonists, and the first people to respond to the news of the Messiah are pe- are people that are not Jewish.
David: Mm.
Seth: What's happening right now? Like, not only is Matthew repeating Israel's history-
David: Right
Seth: ... he's now inverting Israel's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... history, too.
David: I'm going, I'm thinking back to our conversation last week, where we went to Isaiah 7, and the sign of the virgin birth was supposed to be a sign to the reluctant Ahaz-
Seth: Yep
David: ... that God was going to stop the invasion of Assyria.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the way Matthew's telling it, it's as if the sign cameAnd no one in Israel cared, but Assyria got wind of it, and they're like, "Oh, never mind."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "We just won't invade."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like it's so flipped on its head.
Seth: Yeah. And just like King Ahaz pretended to be pious by saying, "No, no, no, I don't need a sign, Isaiah,"-
David: Oh
Seth: ... what does King Herod say?
David: He's like-
Seth: He says-
David: ... "Let's go search the scriptures. Where's the king to be born?"
Seth: "And when you find him, please come tell me, 'cause I want to worship him."
David: "So I want to worship him." Ugh.
Seth: So if we haven't proved the point already-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Matthew is repeating Israel's history-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the time of Jesus. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: And what's con- can be kinda confusing is we're ta- saying generally it's chronological from Genesis through the Book of Chronicles, like we've talked about that-
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
Seth: ... in a couple, in our first podcast. But he's also interspersing the time of the prophets in the middle of it, so it's not just like a straight line, right? It's not this event in Genesis 1, then this event in Genesis 2, and then this event in Exodus 1, and then this event in Numbers.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like that's happening in the background, but at the same time-
David: Oh, he's, he'll just also just pull on-
Seth: He'll layer-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that with prophecies from the-
David: Isaiah
Seth: ... Book of Isaiah or Jeremiah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or wherever he will throughout his time. And in this case, uh, the Book of Micah, "But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah," meaning these wise men expect that the star will hover over Bethlehem because that's where it's prophesied the Messiah will be from.
David: Okay.
Seth: What's interest- do you want to know what's interesting about this prophecy?
David: I obviously do.
Seth: Matthew has changed the meaning of it.
David: What? Uh, you're not allowed to do that. [laughs]
Seth: So in Mat- so it's a quotation from Matthew 5:2, and this is what it says in Mat-
David: Or Mi-
Seth: Or Micah 5:2
David: ... Micah 5:2.
Seth: In Micah 5:2 it says this, "But you, Bethlehem, though you are the smallest among the clans of Judah," and then but Matthew says, "O Bethlehem, you are by no means the least among the clans of Judah." [laughs]
David: Mm.
Seth: Isn't that interesting-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... how he, in Micah, it says, "Even though you're small, something great will rise from you." Matthew says, "You are by no means least among them."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You are the greatest because of who will rise from you."
David: Right.
Seth: So he's like, he changes the wording a little bit but retains the same meaning. Do you see what I'm saying here?
David: Yes.
Seth: And why that's important is this is setting a precedent for how Matthew will continue to unfold Old Testament prophecy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where he will feel really comfortable changing or even reversing the emphasis without changing the meaning-
David: Right
Seth: ... necessarily.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so here it's like, and Micah assumed this tiny town would rise up this humble ruler.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Here because a mighty ruler has risen, the el- the town has been elevated as well.
David: Yeah, that makes sense.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I just wanted to flag that because that is a change from the way the Old Testament says this verse, but he's also being faithful to the intention of that Old Testament author at the same time.
David: Right. I mean, we kinda do the same thing when we're quoting things.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, it, it doesn't have to necessarily be word for word for us to be like, "You know, it's like Albert Einstein said..." I don't know any of his-
Seth: "It's madness."
David: It's... [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results-
David: Right
Seth: ... is madness.
David: It's like he probably didn't say it exactly word like... But it's, it's, oh, he said insanity, but it's the same thing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the reason he does it here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is to highlight a different point or-
David: Okay
Seth: ... a, a secondary point in the Ma- Micah narrative, but he wants to-
David: Right
Seth: ... highlight here Bethlehem is now elevated as the birthplace of a rival king. So, like, he's elevating Bethlehem as, like, an anti-Jerusalem.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jerusalem is filled with Herod and people who are displeased at the rising of a king, but there's this rival city coming up with a new leader. Like, do you see?
David: Yeah, that's interesting.
Seth: Um, so just wanted to add a little bit of drama and also some interpretive asides.
David: Well, that helps because we're talking about how Matthew's playing with the Old Testament a little bit here, and it's like, well, why would he do that? And I think it goes back to the conversation we had a few episodes ago on the genealogies where we said, "Matthew's not an idiot. He's actually a genius, and whenever he does something in the genealogies that you think is historically clumsy, like skipping a few generations-
Seth: Right
David: ... that, what you would call a mistake, is actually an extreme intention that he's trying to get you to highlight something." And so what he's doing here is he's doing that same thing, but he's quoting Micah, and he's changing around a few of the words not because he wants to misquote scripture or 'cause Micah got it wrong or because he doesn't believe in the inerrancy of the Old Testament. None of that. He's doing it to highlight something and, and show a new development in how this prophecy's being filled in Jesus, and that's just a way cooler conversation than I hear most people having about-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... these kind of quotations.
Seth: Thank you for indulging my little prophetic aside. Uh-
David: Oh, you're so welcome
Seth: ... but let's continue with the story of the Magi.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Herod-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... then invites the Magi for a secret meeting.
David: Ooh.
Seth: And he wants to know from them, when did the star appear? How did it come about? He wants to know details.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He wants to know details about this rival king. And then he says, "Okay, go to Bethlehem. Search carefully for this child because I want to worship him." We've said all this before.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And this is a parallel to Ahaz's false piety that we talked about previously.
David: Right. Okay.
Seth: So after they hear this from the king, presumably thinking nothing of it, they go on their way, and the star they had seen goes ahead of them and then stops over Bethlehem, where Jesus was, and when they saw the star again, they were overjoyed. Supposedly, the star's fading in and out of brightness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because it seems like they just found it again. So again, connected to the idea that this isn't a star that's maintaining brightness through a c- like, as a celestial object, but-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the presence of God in a pillar of light that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... moves as it will. And then when they arrive at the house, they see the child with his mother, Mary, and they bow down, and they worship him. And then they open treasures, and they present gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.And then they too have a dream, just like Joseph had a dream, and they're warned not to go back to Herod, and they return to their country back in the east by a different route.
David: Okay.
Seth: So that's the end-
David: That's the end of that narrative
Seth: ... the end of that narrative. So there's a couple of unanswered questions, I guess.
David: Yeah, I've got some of those.
Seth: Yeah. And I think one of the most interesting is why a story about foreigners at all-
David: Right
Seth: ... in what some people call, like, the gospel to the Jew.
David: Yeah, Matthew has been called the gospel to the Jews because it's so rife with Old Testament references.
Seth: Like we keep saying.
David: Yeah, yeah. And so what's... Yeah, why... That's my question, is why are Magi from the East coming?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And also, what's a Magi from the East? [laughs]
Seth: Right. [laughs] I think-
David: And then w- and then my other big question is why do they get a glory cloud?
Seth: Ah, yeah.
David: That's, like, unprecedented.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, yeah.
Seth: So one of the great promises, the original promise of God's people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that through Abraham, all the world would be blessed.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: We talked about that when we talked about genealogies.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that's the original promise of the original thing God's people were supposed to do-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is bless the entire world, specifically through one of Abraham's offspring.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: So the ultimate of Abraham's offspring, the genealogy begins with the son of Abraham-
David: Right
Seth: ... is born.
David: Yes.
Seth: Jesus. And what's the first thing the son of Abraham does? He calls all the world to him.
David: Mm.
Seth: He begins his life fulfilling the promise God made to Abraham by inviting the nations to him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah. That, uh, that's really interesting. What's significant about Magi from the East then? Why that in particular?
Seth: Mm.
David: Because if it's like, oh, if it was all nations will be blessed, why didn't he call- why didn't he send 100 glory clouds and bring-
Seth: Right
David: ... one representative from every nation to him?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why Magi from the East? Is that, like, the most far, unreachable, unfathomable land or something?
Seth: Well, in the Book of Genesis, the East kind of represents just away-ness from God.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: Every time Israel, or sorry, the, like, the people of God move away from the garden, they move east.
Seth: They move east.
David: They move east.
Seth: They move east.
David: They move east.
Seth: They move east.
David: They never move west. [laughs]
Seth: They never move west.
David: West would be coming back to God.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if you remember the story of Genesis, after they're kicked out of Eden, they start moving east.
David: Right.
Seth: But do you [laughs] remember what blocks their entrance from ex- being in God's presence again?
David: An angel with a s- fire sword.
Seth: With, yeah, a, a sword of light.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: It's one of the ways that God's presence was manifest, was in this burning sword.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so when you have people who are from the East following a light, what are they doing? They're going back to the same place that Adam and Eve were once banished from.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so they're moving closer and closer back to Eden, which Jesus is the child of the queen-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the new creation.
David: Right.
Seth: With a king who will provide bread for all people. Like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... these people from the East are reversing the trajectory of God's people since the Garden of Eden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... by moving from the east to Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and s- experiencing God's presence resting over him.
David: I see.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So it's, it's not only the Abrahamic fulfillment, which is all nations will be blessed. Here's a remote nation-
Seth: Right
David: ... being blessed by the coming of Abraham's ultimate descendant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's also that those nations, and all nations, including Israel, will now follow the glory cloud of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from your departure-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... out of the garden back to its gate.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you will be able to enter into the new creation, new world order again.
Seth: Yeah. Going to the east was, like, the ultimate symbol of being away from God.
David: But now the east is coming to the west.
Seth: The east is coming to the west, that's right.
David: Wow.
Seth: And what's interesting too is, as I've said before, Herod is surround himself with the religious elite of Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So the first people to respond to the, the announcement of the Messiah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are non-Jewish people, and the first people to harden their hearts are Jewish people.
David: Right.
Seth: And this is a- another tension that will be set up throughout the rest of the Book of Matthew, is that the leadership of Israel are calcified to the Messiah, but it's those on the outside, the Gentiles, the foreigners, the prostitutes, the tax collectors-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who are most softened to hear the message of good news.
David: Yeah, which is also interesting because you said that Matthew not only is going beat for beat throughout the chronology of the Old Testament, he also layers other themes and prophecies. And one of the themes of the Old Testament is the Jewish nation's hard heart to Yahweh.
Seth: Yeah. That's right.
David: And we're gonna see that again and again and again, and the nations come oftentimes as a rebuke to Israel herself, 'cause they're sometimes more willing to follow Yahweh than Israel herself is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so that- Matthew's gonna weave that theme in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... throughout.
Seth: And we'll... I'm sure we'll talk about this next week, but if it's the non-Jewish populations that are, are softened to the Messiah, ready to come to the Messiah, and it's the Hebrew people that have the hard hearts, the first people to have hard hearts in the Bible was Pharaoh.
David: Mm. Yes. Right. God hardened his heart.
Seth: Yeah. And so it seems as if Matthew's also preparing us to see Israel itself as a type of Egypt.
David: Mm.
Seth: They've become the thing they were freed from.
David: Yes.
Seth: They're enslaved to the same old masters. That theme will, will get picked up-
David: It will get picked up, yep
Seth: ... uh, in a little bit.
David: I see where you're going with that, yeah.
Seth: Also, one of the interesting prophecies throughout the, the prophets is that the kings of the earth will bring their treasures to God.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so-
David: What happens here? [laughs]
Seth: What happens here is that these, these wise men of the earth come and bring their treasures to God as-
David: Right
Seth: ... an acknowledgement that he is the true king of the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're forsaking their nation in the east to pledge allegiance to the new kingdom created by God by their gifts.
David: Yeah. And what's amazing is those prophecies, they often talk about the kings bringing their, their gifts to Mount Zion-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where the king dwells.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And as you said earlier, Bethlehem-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Matthew is setting up as this new rivalSuperpower city.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Not Jerusalem where the temple is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Now it seems like the nations are streaming to the new Zion, which is wherever this baby is.
Seth: Yeah, in moves.
David: Wherev- wherever this kid is, wherever this man of God is, this son of Joseph, [laughs] like wherever he is, that's where Zion is. That's where God's lo- locus is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's interesting to see Mount Zion popping up in Bethlehem and not in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount itself.
Seth: Right.
David: So like, yeah, it's like this new mobile temple-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's just really cool.
Seth: That is really cool, and, uh, that'll be a big part of the tension between Jesus and the Pharisees-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... throughout his ministry, is that the Pharisees are assuming that God's intentions for the world center around the temple, but Jesus will prophesy that that temple will be destroyed because he is the new temple. He is the new center of God's actions in the world. Those who come to him will be saved, not those who come to the temple in Jerusalem.
David: Mm-hmm, right. Okay, last question from me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to wrap up this section. Why do the Magi... Oh, no, actually I have two questions.
Seth: Okay.
David: Oh, no, you already answered my one, which is what's a Magi?
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: And they were-
Seth: Wise men and-
David: Those, yeah
Seth: ... potential astrologers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh-
David: Potential astrologers, maybe
Seth: ... maybe, uh, adherents of the wisdom of Daniel from his time-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in Babylon.
David: Okay.
Seth: We don't know.
David: Yeah, we don't know. Okay.
Seth: I mean, and we've also said, like, representative kings.
David: Oh.
Seth: Like I've heard other people say-
David: Right
Seth: ... Magi could just mean kings from the East.
David: Kings from the East.
Seth: Maybe not just people who are observant of the stars-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but actual leaders of the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And fulfilling in a very on-the-nose way all those prophecies-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that talk about-
David: They could also be, like, ambassadors of kings.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: And we also said that in the Joseph narrative-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... nations from around the world came to Joseph-
David: Came to Egypt, yep
Seth: ... to get food from him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so these people come bringing gifts, payment, and what-
David: To get the bread of Jesus.
Seth: Get the bread of Jesus.
David: Ah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's so good. Okay, then my last question is why do these Magi get a dream, and then why do they return home? They've, they've come to Mount Zion, like they've come to the king. Why are they leaving? Is there a significance there that Matthew's pulling on in the Old Testament?
Seth: I'm not sure I have a good answer for why they get a dream.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But I probably have a better answer for why they return home.
David: Okay.
Seth: They return home because they've received and pledged allegiance to the king of the new world.
David: Mm.
Seth: And if he's the king of the new world, then they can be citizens of the new world order wherever they're from. [laughs] Their observance and following of the Messiah, Jesus, isn't tied to the temple and to Jerusalem like we just said. They can go back out into all the earth and teach others to follow the Messiah, just as Jesus will tell his disciples at the end of the book. Matthew is setting up for us how the Book of Matthew will also end-
David: Mm
Seth: ... with people being sent out to live as citizens of a new kingdom.
David: In all nations.
Seth: In all nations.
David: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Sum up for us where we've been-
Seth: Ah
David: ... through this. Like what's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's going on? What's important? A- a- after almost an hour of listening to us talk about Matthew chapter two and Herod and Magi-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what should everybody be excited about for, like, the birth of Jesus?
Seth: I think what the character of Joseph tells us to be excited about is that Jesus comes from a long line of kings who provide for the needs of their people, and Jesus is a prince like his kingly fathers.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he will come, and he will rule like them. He will provide what his people need, preeminently like with bread. He'll actually feed people bread through miracles. He'll give us our daily bread when we ask him in prayer, but also through something far more significant, like he is the bread of eternal spiritual resurrection life. He'll give us what we need now, and he'll give us what we need for eternity. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I think there's something significant about that, especially since this figure of King Joseph is paired with Queen Mary-
David: Right
Seth: ... the mother of a new creation. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like something, like, is pretty significant is happening in that short genealogy there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But then the wise men also prepare us for the fact that that new creation blessing is not restricted to Israel. It's actually expanded to fulfill God's original promise to Abraham-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which is that the whole world would be invited into the recreation of the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the first people in all of Matthew's gospel to respond positively to the announcement of the Messiah, besides Mary and Joseph-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are Gentiles-
David: Right
Seth: ... are non-Jews-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... kings from other countries who are pledging fealty to a king other than the kingdom they're from.
David: Mm. And I think it's cool, too, that with the glory cloud thing-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... that God goes and seeks them out.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? Like he-
Seth: He leads them
David: ... he leads them with his glory and presence to come-
Seth: Yeah, which-
David: ... and find his son.
Seth: I know the idea of a new Israel is somewhat a theologically loaded term.
David: Mm.
Seth: But the fact that the glory cloud leads a group of Gentiles does point to the fact that God is constituting or rebuilding a new people of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: In the same way that he made the first people of God by allowing them to follow his presence in a pillar of light, he's creating a new people in a beam of light. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he's doing the same thing again.
David: Right, and as we've kind of set this up, but we didn't draw this conclusion, that what happened in Exodus whenever people followed the glory cloud of God to a place, well, they got to Mount Sinai, and that's where they got the construction of the temple, this mobile place where God's presence-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... would dwell, and all of Israel brought their gifts to the tabernacle in order-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to build it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, that's exactly what happened. You have this people. They follow a glory cloud to come to this place, the new Mount Sinai, the new Mount Zion, where the King of Glory dwells in a baby now, or a two-year-old, [laughs] you know, whatever, however old Jesus would've been at that time, and they bring their gifts because he's the new mobile tabernacle of God, that wherever he goes, that's where God's presence is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So it's just cool-
Seth: That is cool
David: ... that connection, too. I think you're right, though. God's reconstituting a global nation inside Israel once again.
Seth: Like, yeah, a true nation of sons of Abraham.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Sons of Abraham by faith.
David: By faith.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. That's really cool. Okay. Well, then, so next week, we're gonna move on. We've got some Exodus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... echoes.
Seth: Yes, next week, we've got Joseph leading his family to Egypt-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to escape the Israel that's become Egypt.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and then a fun prophecy about Nazarenes and some-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... other things that we get to talk about. [laughs]
David: Well, I can't wait. Well, thank you guys for, uh, walking with us as we see how Matthew's teaching us to read the Old Testament. We can't wait to continue that journey with you, and we will see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
