David: [upbeat music] Why is it good news that God's in control when everything looks like he's not? You know-
Seth: Yeah.
David: ... it's like, oh, because he's orchestrating an end that's going to turn out in my favor, even if-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I'm the one suffering.
Seth: Yes.
David: The wheels aren't off the cart. Like, this isn't running out of control.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Even though I'm suffering, even though, you know, a loved one of mine was martyred-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God is sitting on his throne. He's the one orchestrating the things that are going on. He is in control. [upbeat music]
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our look at the Book of Revelation. So far, in the first episode, we talked about what the Book of Revelation is as apocalyptic literature. So if you haven't, go back and watch that one first, 'cause it's foundational to everything else we talk about. In the last episode, we looked at what is probably the main theme in the Book of Revelation, which is the blood of the martyrs and conquering through suffering like Christ. It was a really exciting episode. Go back and watch it if you haven't yet. And now, we're going to look at two other key themes in the Book of Revelation, namely God's throne and the bride. Seth, how you feeling?
Seth: I'm feeling ready.
David: Yeah?
Seth: I'm feeling ready.
David: All right, good.
Seth: I've had a lot of fun going through the Book of Revelation-
David: It's been good
Seth: ... and talking about a king meeting his bride sounds like a great-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... way to spend my afternoon. [chuckles]
David: Okay, so last time we talked about thrones, and we talked about how martyrs go on thrones.
Seth: That's right.
David: Next, yeah.
Seth: At the very beginning of the Book of Revelation, you have all these angelic beings sitting on thrones. They leave those thrones to bow before Jesus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but at the very end of the book, those thrones are repopulated with those who have been beheaded and have been faithful to the testimony of Jesus.
David: Yes, and those are the thrones we talked about last time.
Seth: That's right.
David: This time we wanna focus on that central throne [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: The one Jesus is sitting on.
Seth: Yes.
David: I guess any other reframing that we wanna do to help us get into the book? It- Revelation is a book of hope written to persecuted people.
Seth: Right.
David: It uses symbols to talk about things that are happening in the world.
Seth: Yes.
David: Anything else?
Seth: We... The thing that we kept harping on, uh, throughout this has been, like, when we see something we don't understand, our first impulse is to go back to the Old Testament-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and to help us understand the symbols that we don't understand. And so we th- think about a throne, what does the Old Testament tell us-
David: Oh
Seth: ... about thrones? What does the Old Testament tell us about kings-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, and kingdoms? And that should start to give us a sense for what we're looking at right here.
David: I see. Okay, so before we jump back into the Old Testament, I just wanna, like, get my head on straight. When's the first time we see Jesus's throne, this central throne-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in the Book of Revelation?
Seth: Well, the first throne we actually see is God's throne. So God-
David: Oh, God's throne.
Seth: God's throne.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes, in chapter 4, uh, verse 2, John is given this vision of a heavenly throne room.
David: Okay.
Seth: An angel invites him to come up and to see what's about to take place, and John says, "I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven with one seated on the throne. And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian," which are two gemstones that are red in color. I had to look those up. [chuckles]
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: "And around the throne was a rainbow that was as solid as an emerald, and around the throne were 24 other thrones, and seated on the thrones were 24 elders clothed in white garments with golden crowns on their heads."
David: Okay.
Seth: And it goes on to a description of these kind of crazy beasts, and flashings of lightning, and-
David: Right
Seth: ... burning and fire, uh-
David: Right, but it- but it's, it's not just communicating a scene. He's trying to communicate a truth.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right? It's kind of like what we talked about in the very first episode when John says... Oh, what was that word we talked about? The-
Seth: Signifies?
David: Yeah, signify.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That signify thing. He's saying, like, he's showing you a picture of something to signify what he's trying to tell you. It's like when Jesus said, "I'm gonna tear down this temple," he said that to signify his own death.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: So we're seeing this throne room. What is he signifying?
Seth: The most obvious thing he's probably signifying is that he's borrowing language and imagery from Daniel, chapter 7.
David: Okay.
Seth: So if you go back to Daniel, chapter 7, Daniel is in exile in Babylon, and he's been there for some time now. And in the middle of his letter, he has a vision of, uh, this, uh, S- Ancient of Days. It's a vision of God sitting on his throne in, in a space where there are a whole bunch of other thrones-
David: Right
Seth: ... around him.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he is covered in fire, and lightning is coming from him, and then a figure called the Son of Man comes towards him on his throne, and this Son of Man is given a position of authority in this heavenly courtroom.
David: I see.
Seth: And particularly as the vision goes on, we're told that this Son of Man will suffer under the defeat of beasts-
David: Right
Seth: ... and then be risen up after that time.
David: Okay.
Seth: So that's the image he's pulling on.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right? So when we first think about the throne room in Revelation, we should think about the vision that Daniel had of-
David: Yeah, he is riffing on this Daniel vision.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right.
David: So in order to answer the question of what's going on in Revelation, we need to ask what was going on in-... in Daniel 7?
Seth: That's, that's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And Daniel is in exile, experiencing pressure from a whole bunch of fellow officials-
David: Right.
Seth: ... uh, but he's also separated from his homeland, not-
David: As are his whole people.
Seth: As are his whole people, and he's wanting to go back.
David: Mm.
Seth: And this vision is meant to communicate the way in which Daniel's exile finally ends, and he gets to return home to the temple-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to be with God forever, right?
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: And in Revelation, that's a really s- very strategic choice on the, John's part to choose, because the people reading this letter would've been in a very familiar situation. They're in Asia Minor, so they're not in Jerusalem near the temple, but they would've been ethnically Jewish, separated from their Jewish brothers and sisters because their Jewish brothers and sisters are persecuting them.
David: Mm.
Seth: A couple different times in the opening letters, we're told that Jewish synagogues are synagogues of Satan.
David: Right.
Seth: And it seems as if one of the primary sources of persecution Christians are experiencing is from their Jewish brothers and sisters.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So they're separated from their people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're separated from their temple in a, in a similar way-
David: Right
Seth: ... that Daniel was, and they're hoping and longing for this exile between their brothers and sisters, and their temple to be over, and to be restored to a new temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... once again.
David: Well, especially if they were disciples of Jesus, and actually believed what he said, they're like, "This, this temple's actually gonna be destroyed." So even if they have access to it-
Seth: Right
David: ... they're like, "There's this new temple that's coming-
Seth: Yes.
David: - and we're not with it yet, we feel like, or we don't understand it all."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Or there is that separation sense, and yeah, and they're exi- even if everything was rosy, they're still not in heaven, physically seated with God-
Seth: Right
David: ... like they wanna be, and so there is that separation, that exile that's taking place. When's it gonna be over? How's it gonna end?
Seth: Yes, and the reason why that's significant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to think back on Daniel, is because the h- the end of Daniel is the prophecy of an end of exile, right?
David: Yes, right.
Seth: And the Book of Re- Revelation ends with an end of exile, where God's temple and his peop- God Himself and his people are finally united, right?
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: They are finally home in the new heavens and the new earth.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So the shape of Revelation follows the shape of Daniel 7.
David: I see.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes.
Seth: And even... and w- as we... we'll get to this in a second, but, like, at the very end of Daniel's prophecy, Daniel is given a scroll-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that will-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... w- that will, uh, tell him when their exile will be over-
David: And he-
Seth: ... and when God's people-
David: And he can't open it?
Seth: And he can't open it-
David: Right
Seth: ... because it will not be open until the end of time-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... or until the time is fulfilled.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then this, that scroll that's sealed-
David: Shows up
Seth: ... shows up right here.
David: Oh, my gosh.
Seth: So-
David: Amazing. It's completing the story of Daniel.
Seth: It's completing the story of Daniel.
David: That's really cool. A- okay, so then going back to the throne then-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... focusing on that as, as our theme here, what I'm hearing then, 'cause I remember our time in Daniel together, our through line for Daniel was, despite what it looks like, God is in control.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we know that mainly, uh, obvious- a lot of other reasons, but the, the, like, ultimate version was because of this throne from the heavens. Like, yes, there's Babylon, and there's a king who sits on that throne. Persia has a throne. All these enemies have thrones, but God's throne is the Ancient of Days' throne.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's the, the ultimate throne of thrones that shows that He has sovereignty, control over everything, and so by Revelation importing the Daniel throne of the Ancient of Days here-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... He's trying to communicate the same point of the Book of Daniel, I'm guessing-
Seth: That's right
David: ... which is like, "Hey, I know there's persecution. I know there's suffering. I know there's beasts. God is in control."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And on a really simple level, that's it.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, that's all we should take away from it. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all the crazy stuff that happens in the Book of Revelation doesn't escape God's notice.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's not in his blind spot-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but it's actually part of Him bringing his people out of exile and into his presence permanently.
David: I see. Makes me sound like you're hinting at something there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because you're, you're... I think what you're saying is not just the symbol of a throne-
Seth: Yep
David: ... that a king sits on and makes decrees. Not that symbol alone proves God's sovereignty and control, but actually how the Book of Revelation plays out shows that these aren't random happenings on the Earth. It's, they're coming from God. Like-
Seth: Yeah, that's right
David: ... He's the orchestrator.
Seth: Yeah, and in particular, to go with our theme last time, is like, He is operating with humans.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Humans have been given thrones next to Him, and God and humans together are both judging and purifying the world.
David: Like when he poured out the, the censer of their prayers.
Seth: Of their prayers-
David: Right
Seth: ... yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or their blood is poured out on the earth-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... later or... Yes.
David: W- w- okay, where el- 'cause I have so many questions-
Seth: Great
David: ... but I don't wanna, like, divert us, so where, where else do we need to go to trace this theme of God's throne through the book?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, w- let's continue the story-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in, in chapter four. So God is on the throne-
David: Yes
Seth: ... surrounded by angelic beings.
David: Right.
Seth: But Jesus is not there-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... at the beginning of chapter four.
David: Just like in-
Seth: Right
David: ... and so, like, if you know he's doing the Daniel 7 thing, you're like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "Okay, when's that other character coming-
Seth: That's right, the Son of Man
David: ... that's gonna come sit on his throne? When's the Son of Man coming?"
Seth: Right, and, I mean, Jewish interpreters of Daniel never th- didn't really know who that character was always.
David: Right.
Seth: There's been a whole history of interpretation, but John is gonna say, his b- belief in this, that it's Jesus, the Messiah.
David: Ah, so that's actually a pretty radical thing John's doing here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "Let me retell you the Daniel story, and then show you that the Son of Man that sits on the throne of the Ancient of Days is Jesus."
Seth: Is Jesus.
David: That's fascinating.
Seth: That's... Right? So that's super cool.
David: Okay.
Seth: And basically, there's a scroll that is held by God Almighty.
David: Is this the, the scroll from Daniel about-
Seth: This is the scroll from Daniel.
David: When are we gonna be back with God? What's the end of the story?
Seth: That's right.
David: How's it all gonna play out?
Seth: And it's sealed with seven different seals. Like, think wax seals-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a signet ring-
David: Okay
Seth: ... punched into it. There's a scroll sealed shut with seven different wax seals.
David: Okay.
Seth: And John sees it, and he knows what's on it.... it's the prophecy of the end of exile. It's the announcement-
David: Right
Seth: ... of God's final kingdom.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: And he's weeping that no one is worthy-
David: Right
Seth: ... to approach the Ancient of Days, approach God on the throne, and make his kingdom come on the earth.
David: Right.
Seth: And then all of a sudden, there's this announcement in the heavens, "Behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the son of David."
David: Mm.
Seth: And he's like, "Where is he?" And he turns around, and he sees a picture of a lamb. So that's- people always make mention of this, but John hears a lot of things, but sees different things.
David: Yes.
Seth: He hears about a lion, he hears about a descendant of David, but he turns around and doesn't see a lion, he sees a lamb.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He doesn't see a human, he sees a s- slaughtered lamb instead.
David: Mm.
Seth: But it's a picture of Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who was sacrificed for his people, and because he was sacrificed, he is worthy-
David: Right
Seth: ... to sit on a throne next to God and break off the seals.
David: I see, and if that doesn't make sense to you listening or watching right now, go back to the last episode, 'cause-
Seth: Ah
David: ... we talked about-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that whole thing.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: Yes, that as the main theme of the book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um-
David: So, so Jesus... So he, he hears this noise, "Who's worthy? I want this scroll to open" Uh, question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Does he want the scroll to open 'cause he wants to know what it says, or so that what it says will come to pass?
Seth: So that what it says can come to pass.
David: Okay, thank you. [chuckles]
Seth: All right.
David: I've always wondered that. [chuckles]
Seth: I've struggled with that, too-
David: Okay
Seth: ... 'cause I always thought like, "Oh, it's sealed, nobody knows what it says."
David: No one's gonna know the end of the story. What's the end of the story?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But if you'll read, pay attention to the Book of Daniel, we kinda know what it says. It's, it's the hope of the end of exile.
David: Right.
Seth: It's-
David: The exile will be over. It's not like, "We're in exile! Oh, no, what's gonna happen?"
Seth: Right, and Daniel was told what's on the scroll, right?
David: Right, totally.
Seth: But we just couldn't read it yet.
David: Yeah, you couldn't-
Seth: It was sealed
David: ... open it. So to... Think of it, think of the scroll... This is helpful for me. Think of the scroll less like a story that you don't know the end of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and that's the final chapter, and you're like, "What happens to Harry Potter?"
Seth: Right.
David: You know, open it up and read. It's not that, it's a decree that needs to be read in order to be effective.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, that's really helpful.
Seth: Who's worthy to start the Kingdom of God, God's final place with humanity? Who's ready to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... make that kingdom edict?
David: And is it, is it the breaking of the seal that does that, or the reading of the scroll? Like, what-
Seth: So, yeah, yeah. So there's... I'm, I'm struggling right now, like, how do I develop a theme of throne without robbing all of our other podcasts of their weight? [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: Because, ah, the- we're starting to the story of Revelation.
David: I see.
Seth: Revelation opens with this scroll that announces the final Kingdom of God.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And the drama of the whole Book of Revelation is God finally speaking, or Jesus finally speaking and declaring that kingdom has come.
David: I see, and we wanna talk about that in the next episode.
Seth: Yes, we wanna talk about it-
David: Okay
Seth: ... yes, yes.
David: I, I... It's fine, I can, I can separate. Okay, then I- that's enough for me right now-
Seth: Right
David: ... with the scroll. That's great. So he sees Jesus, the slaughtered lamb, and what happens?
Seth: The whole of heaven erupts.
David: Rock on.
Seth: "Worthy are..." And they start worshiping him. "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seal- seals, because you were slain-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and by your blood ransomed people for God from every tribe, language, and nation, and tongue."
David: So, so what's happening there is, like, just like Daniel wasn't able to, to enact the end of exile, just like John was weeping 'cause he's like, "Who can bring us out of exile-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and reconcile all things to God, and let us be with him again as a people?" People erupt in worship and are freaking out-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because Jesus is the one who can bring an end to exile.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: He can... Yeah, he can bring around the New World Order. He can-
David: Yeah, the New World Order. He can bring us home.
Seth: That's right.
David: He can, he can make the story have a happy ending.
Seth: Yeah, and during these songs, there's three of these songs, he sits down on a throne next to God himself.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: So and from that position of authority, the rest of the story plays out.
David: Mm.
Seth: So every judgment that you read about, every action that happens on the earth, all happens from that throne room.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, imagine just, like, a sky throne and a earth below.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And anything that happens on the earth below is because it first happens in the heavens, or is poured out from the heavens.
David: I see.
Seth: So every action that you read about happening on Earth only happens because of something that first happens in the heavens.
David: I see. So that's, that's going back to that theme of why it all happens from a throne.
Seth: He has authority, yeah.
David: Because God has the authority to do it.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's not a bunch of random happenstance that's occurring, and God's trying to make sense of it in the heavens.
Seth: No.
David: It's his doing.
Seth: It's his doing.
David: Okay.
Seth: He's bringing about the things that are being described.
David: Okay, which, to, like, make a point there, is like so- uh, such a good hope bringer, which is like-
Seth: Oh, right
David: ... what I keep coming back to-
Seth: Yes
David: ... it, of why the Book of Revelation was written, is: Why is it good news that God's in control when everything looks like he's not? You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, oh, because he's orchestrating an end that's going to turn out in my favor-
Seth: Yes
David: ... even if I'm the one suffering.
Seth: Yes.
David: The wheels aren't off the cart. Like, [chuckles] this isn't running out of control-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... even though I'm suffering, even though, you know, a loved one of mine was martyred.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God is sitting on his throne. He's the one orchestrating the things that are going on. He's in control.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right. So you have God on the throne at the beginning of the story. In a lot of ways, like, the story's kind of over by the end of chapter five.
David: That's, that story? Or-
Seth: The, the... Who's in the control of the powers?
David: Mm.
Seth: God is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's on the throne. He's on the throne above all thrones.
David: Right.
Seth: The story's kind of over. What, what can anybody do? What throne on Earth-
David: Right
Seth: ... can overthrow the throne in Heaven? [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: So there's a sense in which, like, the good news of this is like, oh, the story of world empires is over before a world empire is even formed.
David: Mm.
Seth: God sits on the throne above them all, and has always done so, and will continue to do so, and on that throne is a man who has sacrificed himself to bring us to his throne permanently and forever.
David: Right.
Seth: The story's already over-
David: Right
Seth: ... no matter what happens on the Earth.
David: That makes sense. And I, I think and, like, I was gonna say this earlier, but you've, you've kind of said it here, is I think the God is in control thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... can do one of two things to people. One, it can feel like a platitude.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, "Don't worry, God's in control."... you know, and I think, like, as you dive into Revelation and see the live ammo that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: -is being dealt with here-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
David: ... you can see it is anything but a platitude. It is very real. Uh, and then the other thing is, when you say God is in control, that can seem miserly or like He's a puppet master. But it's like the God who's in control is the lamb that was slain for the world-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that He's trying to-
Seth: Yes
David: ... save.
Seth: And very specifically, he says, "You were slain, and you have made us a kingdom of priests to our God, and we will reign upon the earth."
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, what-
David: He's not in control to suppress you and keep you down.
Seth: He's in control to s- elevate you-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... to your proper position of authority-
David: Right
Seth: ... and see the world transformed-
David: Right
Seth: ... into its-
David: Yeah, you want a-
Seth: into the kingdom of God
David: ... you want a slain lamb on the throne.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then we end the Book of Revelation on a throne, too.
David: Mm.
Seth: So b- it begins, and the story's already over. God's on his throne, and he's rise r- he's lifting [chuckles] us up to it with him. All the action in Revelation happens first because it happens in the throne room.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then right at the very end, in chapter 20, uh, we have a great white throne.
David: Oh.
Seth: And then in chapter 20, verse 11, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. And from His presence, earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And then I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. And then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life, and the dead were judged by what was written on the books according to what they had done. The sea gave up their dead that were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into a lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if w- anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown in the lake of fire." So this is where the throne comes back into play.
David: Mm.
Seth: This throne that Jesus sits on in the beginning, that good news is already announced from, that all the action happens. There's this kind of climactic moment at the end-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where all judgment that is left to be made is made. All vindication, that n- all those that need to be vindicated and avenged are vindicated and avenged.
David: I see.
Seth: There's nothing left undone by the King who sits on this throne.
David: Ah, so He who is in control on the throne in Revelation 5-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... makes all things right-
Seth: Yes
David: ... by Revelation 20.
Seth: That's right.
David: So it's like, like, "God, like, I'm, I'm glad You're on the throne, I'm glad You're in control, but things aren't quite working out the way I want them to. Look at my enemies. Like, what's going on?" It's like, no, He who is on the throne will stay on that throne until all enemies are judged, all wrongs are righted, and all justice is vindicated.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And He'll be there even after death and Hades-
David: Yes
Seth: ... are conquered.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so this is the image of the King on the throne. God is in control-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of what happens in our histories.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah, 'cause if he wasn't, then the victory of the martyrs seems impossible.
Seth: Right. Right, that's right.
David: It seems non- like nonsense.
Seth: Yes.
David: Only in a world where a slain lamb was sitting on heaven's throne could martyrs be risen to victory.
Seth: Right. That's right.
David: Like, it's, it has to be that way.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so from that throne-
David: Yes
Seth: ... all evil's dealt with-
David: Yep
Seth: ... all the innocent blood has been avenged, and then we get this vision of a new heaven and a new earth dawning.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The, the, the dawning of a new era, the end of the world as they knew it, and the dawning of a new kingdom, right?
David: Yes.
Seth: We see this holy city coming down from heaven, which we'll talk about in a little bit. He's d- God is dwelling with his people, living with them, like Daniel hoped for.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He is-
David: Exile's over.
Seth: Exile's over!
David: Yeah.
Seth: Everything is happening. And while this is not the first time that Jesus speaks-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the whole Book of Revelation, it is kind of the only time He speaks-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... since the scroll is opened.
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: So imagine that, just for a second, the scroll is opened, but at the end of chapter five, nothing's read.
David: Mm.
Seth: Nothing's read on the scroll.
David: Yeah, which is, like, an important part of opening a scroll.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: If it has on it the declaration of a new kingdom, we're waiting for the contents of the scroll to be a- read aloud-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the kingdom to come, right?
David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Um, and then, uh... Yeah, so it's like-
David: What's it say?
Seth: What does it say?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think right here is when Jesus finally reads the contents of the scroll.
David: Okay, which part?
Seth: In verse five-
David: Oh
Seth: ... of chapter 21.
David: 21?
Seth: "And He who is seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new. It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. And to the thirsty I will give from the spring of water of life without payment, and the one who conquers will have this heritage: I will be his God, and he will be my son.'" That is the announcement-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of the dawning of the new kingdom. And if you are paying attention, that's also the way in which God started the first Kingdom of Israel. A-
David: Oh, right!
Seth: He said, "I will be your God, and you will be my people."
David: Yes.
Seth: So as a king, with all authority-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all evil has been judged, all blood has been vindicated, the scroll... Worthy to open the scroll of history, he finally reads the final announcement.
David: Mm.
Seth: "You are my people. I am your God. You are my sons and daughters. Let us live together for eternity."
David: And we enter into the eternal Promised Land.
Seth: That's right!
David: That's cool.
Seth: That's right.
David: I love that.
Seth: And that's the theme of the throne-
David: I see
Seth: ... throughout-
David: Okay
Seth: ... the, the Book of Revelation.
David: One last thing that I was thinking about as we're talking about God's throne-
Seth: Yep
David: ... is we were also talking about how the temple is probably the most historical thing we should have in our mind as we read about the events in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, Revelation leading up to its destruction in the year 70. God's throne used to be in there.
Seth: Yeah, his-
David: Inside the Holy of Holies.
Seth: His footstool, at least. [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's like this Ark of the Covenant was where God's presence would come and sit.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He would come and dwell there. It was where He executed His rule and His reign in Israel-
Seth: That's right
David: ... on Earth. Uh, it was the one place where, like, heaven touched earth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And if that place is going to be destroyed, or maybe already had been, or whatever-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where does he execute his rule from now? Like, what does the throne- I know what the th-
Seth: Yeah.
David: I know what God's throne room looks like, and I think that's easy, an easier logical, theological jump for us to make-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as people living in this millennia [chuckles] but for somebody back there who... God's lived in temples.
Seth: Oh, right, right, right.
David: You access gods on mountains or in high places or in-
Seth: Yes
David: ... designated areas. Where's God's throne?
Seth: Right.
David: Where does your God live?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just, like, such a big-
Seth: Right
David: ... question. If the temple's going to be destroyed by God himself-
Seth: Right
David: ... what's the solution?
Seth: Yes.
David: Where's God's throne? And it's, it's good news because it's in the heaven of heavens-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and it's over everything, and he- his, his rule that goes forth actually executes everything that it's meant to.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's amazing.
Seth: Not only is God's rule in the heavens, but God's rule rests in, in his people.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so this is actually... This whole next section is called the New Jerusalem, and it's a description of... It's y- it's a description of a new heavenly city, the, the final city-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the city of God. But what's interesting is it uses measurements that are the same measurements or similar measurements to the types used to describe the temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the Old Testament, but weirdly, after describing in temple-like words this coming new Jerusalem with this new temple-like structure, he says, "But there is no temple."
David: There's just people.
Seth: There's just people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So where is the location of God's presence?
David: Right.
Seth: It is his people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on the Earth.
David: Right.
Seth: Reigning in heaven-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and reigning on the Earth. This is where God's presence dwells, not over there, not over there-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but in us. So why is our exile over on the Earth right now? Because we are God's presence. We are the center of God's presence-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as Christ lives in us, right?
David: Yeah, so that's another reason why it's good news that God reigns on his throne, is because that reign is communicative to us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, we can reign with him even now-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as his ambassadors, as those indwelt by him through his Spirit. We are reigning with him now over the Earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, that's really cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. Is that throne?
Seth: And that's the throne. That's the, the, the theme of the throne-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and his rule and his reign and how we interact with that. Yes. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so there's this... There's Jesus on a throne above all, orchestrating everything, worthy to open the scroll of history that everyone's freaking out about, and yet the crazy thing is that God has a bride.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: And he's gonna ha- get-
Seth: Right, that-
David: That-
Seth: ... that king wants to have a queen.
David: Yeah, that's-
Seth: Yes.
David: So let's talk about that. Where then is the first time we pick up on this idea of a woman or a bride or a queen, as you said?
Seth: Uh, really, it's actually at the very end of the story of Book of Revelation.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Revelation 19. So we have just witnessed in the story the fall of these world powers, this false woman riding a beast, and the whole world is celebrating the fall of a nation he calls Babylon, and then in chapter 19, verse- starting in verse six, we hear this song emanating from the heavens-
David: Mm
Seth: ... after the defeat of this wicked city called Babylon, and it says, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. It was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure. For the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints." So after Babylon is defeated, the heavens start singing about, "Okay, now that Babylon is destroyed-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the Lamb, Jesus, can finally marry his bride-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the saints, because they have been purified and made ready for this moment through the"-- what's happened in the Book of Revelation so far.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay, so that's where the first time we read about it.
David: Man, okay. I mean, one, I'm thinking... It, it reminds me of, like, some medieval movie, you know-
Seth: Okay
David: ... where you have this... This is probably- this is just not helpful when it comes to [chuckles] Jesus-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... but it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the marriage part. You have this, like, dashing prince who needs to go out to battle, and he's like, "When I return, we shall wed."
Seth: I mean-
David: You know? [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then like goes out, wins a big victory, and the f- and then he comes back in the gates, and everyone's singing, and he's riding on his horse, and they're like, "It's time for you to marry!"
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, and then-
Seth: "The kingdom is yours!"
David: And then they have this big marriage.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, that's just, like, the image that I have in my head.
Seth: I mean, it's like... It's kinda true because he literally- uh, God just kills a dragon- [chuckles]
David: ... in the last couple of verse, chapters, too, so it's like [chuckles] it kinda fits. That, that's really cool, and then, like, this bride makes herself ready, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, this is a process-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in, you know, Jewish culture and, and even the, the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... wider culture of the day, where it was, like, this whole thing for a bride to get herself ready.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, uh, it, it, it could take hours. It could take days.
Seth: Yeah, we think of a bride-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... getting ready, it's a, it's a whole morning affair-
David: Right
Seth: ... for a 5:00 PM wedding.
David: It's like, no.
Seth: Yeah, we normally think about weddings, like, you take the whole morning to get ready for the wedding at 5:00 PM.
David: Right.
Seth: But in Judaism, that same thing would happen but over a longer period of time.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, Jewish weddings lasted, like, seven days, and so the bride would prepare herself for, like, three or four days.
David: Right.
Seth: The wedding would happen on the fourth day.
David: Right.
Seth: And they would just continue celebrating.
David: Yeah, it's like the bride wasn't in the powder room getting her makeup done.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like this is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the history of the church, been getting ready-
Seth: Right
David: ... for this day.
Seth: And so you can even imagine, like, the structure of Revelation kinda like a wedding.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the wedding announcement happens in Revelation, chapter 4, when the king takes his throne.
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: Right, and then there's several days of preparation until the wedding day, which happens here in chapter 19, and then chapters 20 and 21 is the ending of the wedding day celebration, right?
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's one way to think about the Book of Revelation, but here's the, the confusing thing.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: This is the first time a wedding has ever been mentioned in the Book of Revelation.... yeah and that is bizarre to me, considering the way in which these other themes that we've talked about, like conquering or the throne are generally established on page one and all of a sudden we are expected to understand that the fall of Babylon and the defeat of the dragon-
David: Makes way for a wedding.
Seth: Makes way for a wedding! So I was like, well, is, is John just a bad writer? And not like, tell [laughing] like, put the shotgun over the mantelpiece for me, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... why is this here? It's my kinda first question.
David: Mm.
Seth: I didn't know if you had a follow-up question to that now that I've pointed it out, but-
David: Well, I mean, it makes me think- I mean, it makes me think that, like, you h- it does start- Revelation does start with verse five you read, um, or in an earlier episode, "To him who loves us and has freed us-
Seth: Mm
David: ... from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom." It, it, it's like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... there is this, like, love-
Seth: Affection
David: ... and this pursuit. Yeah, this affection. Even in one of the letters he says, like, "Remember your first love" and I don't know if that has anything to do with-
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. I wanna come in and eat with you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: There is this, like, intimacy, this pursuit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of God, of his people, that is happening, but it also is a major biblical theme-
Seth: Right, which is-
David: ... that needs to be tied up. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So throughout the Old Testament, God considers Israel, his people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to be his bride.
David: Right.
Seth: That is one of the central metaphors that God uses to describe his relationship-
David: Mm, mm
Seth: ... with his people and then I think everyone's pr-pretty familiar with, like, the Book of Hosea when God's people are unfaithful-
David: Right
Seth: ... and she's described as a prostitute.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right? But that is a breaking of a marriage covenant that God hopes to restore again-
David: Yes
Seth: ... one day. And so this idea that God is in a marriage relationship with his people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is something that is found all throughout the Old Testament, and which is why I think it's showing up here. It's like, oh, there's a theme in which God wants to marry his people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but they're chronically faithless.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They have not prepared themselves to actually be married. But in this final phase of world history, something's going to happen. A type of persecution is going to happen. The ending of one world order and the beginning of new is going to happen, and God's bride is finally going to be ready-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to join herself to Jesus forever.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes. Is there anything else in Revelation, then, that sets up the categories for this marriage that's gonna happen? What else should we be having in our-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in our head as we're thinking about, like, w- who is this bride? Where did she come from? What's the story-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that's led to this marriage supper?
Seth: So if you've been reading your Old Testament carefully-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you'll know that God wants to be in a marriage relationship with his people, but his people are chronically unfaithful, and that pattern never really resolves itself.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what's really interesting is if you read the Book of John, like, the Apostle John-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, the Gospel of John, you'll notice that in his book, he kinda picks up on this theme of the idea that God wants to marry his people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and that Jesus is supposed to be the bride of that people.
David: Bridegroom.
Seth: The bridegroom of that peop- uh, the, the bride. [laughing] The bridegroom-
David: [laughing]
Seth: ... the groom!
David: The groom.
Seth: The groom of his people.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so there's, like, some breadcrumbs here-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which I think the John of Revelation, pr- presumably the same person-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is picking up on and resolving the story of the Gospel of John.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, right, okay, so let me, let me see if I can-
David: Yeah, yeah. So are these the... Are you gonna lay out some breadcrumbs-
Seth: Yeah, so-
David: ... from the Gospel of John?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: From- so yes, breadcrumbs from the Gospel of John.
David: Okay.
Seth: Jesus' first miracle-
David: A wedding
Seth: ... is providing wine at a wedding.
David: Yep.
Seth: And what's interesting about that wedding, though, is that even though John very explicitly calls Jesus the groom-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in chapter three, Jesus is not the groom of that wedding.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's like, oh!
David: Where- when's his wedding?
Seth: When's his wedding?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so you're kind of set up like, oh, God is supposed to be the husband of his people. Jesus is supposed to be God in the flesh. We're waiting for Jesus's wedding-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and the first miracle is a wedding!
David: Yep.
Seth: But it's not his.
David: Right.
Seth: Shoot, uh, when is that wedding going to happen?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then we have this interesting story where Jesus approaches a woman at a well.
David: Yes, John 4.
Seth: John 4, and what's weird about that is all throughout the Old Testament, when the patriarchs met women at wells-
David: That's when they find their wife.
Seth: That's when they find their wife.
David: And this woman is a radical adulteress.
Seth: Yeah, she's a-
David: Serial adulteress
Seth: ... she's a serial adulteress, but she's faithful to God, and she becomes one of the first missionaries-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in John's gospel.
David: Right.
Seth: But it's still not Jesus's bride. They don't get married.
David: Oh, man, we-
Seth: There's even, they-
David: ... we missed it again.
Seth: They even talk about weddings.
David: Right.
Seth: But it's not Jesus's wedding.
David: Oh, man. Okay.
Seth: Right? Um-
David: They're talking about marriage.
Seth: They're talking about marriage.
David: Marriage.
Seth: Yes, they're talking about marriage-
David: Right
Seth: ... but there is no marriage.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, and then, interestingly, Jesus, after he's risen from the dead as a new Adam-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... comes out into the garden and meets who? A single woman named-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Mary Magdalene.
David: Right.
Seth: This should be like a Garden of Eden moment-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... where the king of the world comes in a garden to meet his queen-
David: Right
Seth: ... but he sends Mary Magdalene away.
David: Ugh. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: When's this wedding gonna happen? I just want the wedding to happen.
Seth: Right, and so y- you could, you can think-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... that the, uh, John here is picking up these breadcrumbs and finally giving us-
David: The wedding we've been waiting for
Seth: ... the wedding we've been waiting for. [laughing]
David: It's the wedding of the century!
Seth: Ah, that we've been waiting for.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I love that i- that idea that's happening here.
David: That's cool.
Seth: And what's interesting is we've talked at various times about what the blood of the martyrs does-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and how it, like, judges the world, but also purifies the world. But there's this other sense that what's ha- the judgments that happen on the Earth also purify the people of God as well.
David: Yes, right.
Seth: Because presumably, these things that are happening on the Earth happen to both Christians and non-Christians.
David: That's right.
Seth: And the experience of persecution by these global powers actually purifies God's people and, like, makes them more faithful over time.
David: Right. Several of the New Testament letters tell us as much.
Seth: That's right.
David: Persevere in suffering, 'cause that's gonna bring about godly character and perseverance and godliness.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's a very basic Christian thing to do.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, how are we gonna get ready for this wedding?
Seth: That's right.
David: How am I gonna be a part of the bride and be at that wedding-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, like, be-... like the clean white bride. It's like, "Oh, Jesus is getting me ready for the wedding through the suffering." Oh, I see what you're doing. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: I don't know if I'm talking to you or Revelation at this point. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing] Ah.
David: But like, you, you, uh, as we talked about in the last episode, it was like this whole idea of hope for sufferers-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is what Revelation is all about, giving us hope for those who are enduring suffering for the name of Jesus. And we talked about, like, how one of the biggest things that Revelation offers hope to these people, uh, through is, it's not in vain.
Seth: Yeah.
David: If you suffer for the name of Christ, and, and your martyrdom-
Seth: It does something in the world.
David: It does something. You're gonna reign on a throne, you're gonna purify the world, you're gonna invoke God's judgment on enemies, lots of good things, right? Boom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But now you're offering me something else-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, is it worth it to suffer? It's like, yes, because you're like a bride getting wed- ready for her wedding day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, that's... Like, when you're suffering for Christ, you're, you're putting on makeup. When you're-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when you're being persecuted, you're doing your hair.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, you're, you know, whenever, whenever you're being stripped naked, you're putting on a wedding dress.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like- [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you're getting wedding for, ready for your wedding day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's just so cool.
Seth: It's th- this emotive metaphor compared to, like, the, the, the kingly metaphors we've been using.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So we've ta- we talked about we'll reign-
David: Right, yes
Seth: ... we'll rule.
David: Sit on a throne.
Seth: We'll judge.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Enact vengeance-
David: Kingdom and priests
Seth: ... power, po-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like these great things.
David: Which are good.
Seth: Which are all great, but this gets more at, like, this, why does God describe his people as his bride at all?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because it's not simply about a transactional relationship of power-
David: Right
Seth: ... or making sure people restore themselves to their ultimate humanity. All good things.
David: All good things.
Seth: But there's actually an emotive relationship-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God desires to have for his people that's best expressed in the way that a husband loves his wife.
David: Yeah. In fact, Paul tells us in Ephesians that marriage between a husband and a wife here on Earth is actually a picture-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a shadow of what our relationship with God really is.
Seth: That's right.
David: So it's not like God's condescending his love in a way we can understand it, as like, "Oh, it's-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... you know, it's kinda like a, a marriage." It's like, no, this is what all good human love is actually pointing to.
Seth: Right.
David: This is better, deeper, more emotive.
Seth: Yes.
David: So it's like, I think our tendency can be wanna, like, water it down and be like, "Oh, it's like a wedding-"
Seth: Right. Right
David: ... "it's like a marriage." It's like, no, if anything, marriages are like-
Seth: Our weddings are, our weddings are like this wedding. [laughing]
David: Yeah, [laughing] exactly.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know?
Seth: And so the, the, what is Revelation for? It's giving us this vision of, like, God wants to unite himself to his people in love.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: W- and what does that take? We gotta get ready for the wedding day.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what does that mean? It means suffering.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and through that, though, we are united to our true husband forever.
David: Yeah. That's good news.
Seth: That's super good news.
David: Um, okay.
Seth: And then can I keep going on this?
David: Yes, keep going-
Seth: So-
David: ... 'cause I'm gonna d- um, the thing in my head is gonna take us in a completely different direction.
Seth: Um, so that's... I have just been talking from Revelation 19, but a wedding is described again in chapter 21, when John sees another vision of a new heaven and a new Earth, uh, coming down out of heaven-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... uh, and where the sea is no more. And he sees a holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And then there's a voice from heaven, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man-"
David: Right
Seth: ... "he will dwell with him forever."
David: The, the, the husband and wife move in together.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right, this is the consummation of the marriage.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is, this is the central moment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When-
David: It's, it's where, it's when the, the husband picks up the bride and carries her over the threshold.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: You know, you know, that classic thing. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. And so what this makes me think about is that there's two, like, horizons-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for this marriage. There's the horizon of... We keep talking, like, maybe even three horizons. Uh, but [chuckles] the two horizons, like, uh-
David: How many sons are on this planet? [laughing]
Seth: How many sons are on this planet? One, we keep talking about as, if we go back to the first episode, that there's a sense in which once the temp- we're talking about events leading up to the destruction of the temple.
David: Right, yep.
Seth: The end of one world order centered around the temple, and a new world order centered around God in his heavenly temple.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right?
David: And his dwelling in us.
Seth: And his dwelling in us.
David: Right.
Seth: And so there is a sense, once the temple is destroyed-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it inaugurates a new era where we are united to Christ as a bride is united to her husband-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and we rule with him as the center of God's new universe.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes.
Seth: Which is just a cool image, as c-
David: It's amazing
Seth: ... us, the Church-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and Jesus.
David: We're called the Body of Christ-
Seth: Right
David: ... because we're one with him as a wife is one with her husband.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then there's another, like, emotive side, which we've been talking about. We are finally united with our, our heart's truest longing.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes. [laughing]
Seth: Uh, and then there's the, like, uh, eschatological final horizon of this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in which this is a picture of reality forever-
David: Mm
Seth: ... once Christ returns.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There is gonna be, like, another moment when there is a, a radical reshaping of the world order as we know it-
David: Right
Seth: ... and a new world order will begin, and we will experience what we experience now, in part, entirely and fully-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we'll really be carried across the threshold.
David: That's right.
Seth: Right. [chuckles]
David: And it's an amazing magnification that happens. So you have, you have the temple, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which is God's ti- like, small place where God is present on Earth, is the idea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And but like we talked about in the first episode, it's also a picture of the whole world.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so it's a place where heaven can meet Earth. That is going to be destroyed, right, in the year 70-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in order to make room for a more global temple, where you have-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... little temples as Christians-
Seth: Mm
David: ... right, and you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, but it's still, like, small and local. And they come together as little bodies and churches, and there's little temples, and it's like, "Oh, it's, this is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this is better.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is better.... but then there's another escalation where it says the old heavens and the old Earth are gonna be destroyed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Just like the temple was destroyed-
Seth: Yeah.
David: -so this new temple system is destroyed, and a new heaven and Earth-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: - heaven is gonna engulf Earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they're gonna be one, and no longer are there silos of presence-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and little outposts of presence.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Instead, the whole Earth is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... presence. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's, like, the coolest thing ever. It's my favorite part of the Bible.
Seth: It's your favorite part of the Bible. [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: It should be. It should be.
David: Yeah, I guess that's true.
Seth: So I guess the, the way to wrap this up, then, is like, okay, I'm a first-century person on the ground-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... suffering under persecution. Z- why is the theme of the bride good news?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then I'm a man today, or a woman today, and I, I mean, it's, it's funny, it's like this book means a lot more, much more quickly to people who are currently experiencing suffering.
David: Oh, yeah, that's who it was written to.
Seth: Right. So maybe let's just, let's just land there. Let's not, not l- try to apply it to us, who are experiencing a, a lesser degree of-
David: Sure
Seth: ... of persecution.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What does this mean for a person on the ground suffering, to be united with their husband?
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's, it's pro... I don't, I don't know how to go beyond what I said earlier-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is your suffering is like a bride getting ready for her wedding day. Your suffering is a beautification process-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is just amazing.
Seth: I remember this quote. Uh, I've- I think I've s- used it in a couple weddings that I've done, uh, or at least a couple sermons about Revelation.
David: Mm.
Seth: I think it's from Tim Keller. I, I can't remember. Um, um, I think it is, and he talked about how on wedding days we think about ourselves dressing up.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? And, like, this is the most important day, and, uh, the, the reason we dress up is to like, to show the significance of our day. But he says, like, "No, you're not playing dress-up on that day."
David: Mm.
Seth: "You're dressing as you will one day be."
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's like, people always talk about their husband or their bride l- never looking more beautiful when they saw them walking down the aisle. That's n- we're not play-acting. That's how the world ends.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We are reenacting beforehand what the world will one day be-
David: Right
Seth: ... ah, in that moment. And I was like, that's a... I love that, that, that-
David: That's beautiful
Seth: ... picture. [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's beautiful.
David: Um, I've got, I've got one last diversion-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that I wanna try to go on since we have a tiny bit of time left, and that is I, I think that the theme of the, of the woman-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the bride, we talked about the, the, the-
Seth: Uh
David: ... crumbs-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... in, in John. It's like, and we talked a little bit about it in the Old Testament, but it's like this is the story of the Bible.
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: Right? You have a woman betrayed by a beast-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Eve and the serpent.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, that's, that's how the s- book starts.
Seth: Yes.
David: And she's meant to have intimacy, yes, with her husband, but also with her God, as they live in a kingdom together-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is this perfect garden temple.
Seth: Yes.
David: And a beast comes and, but then deceives her and leads her astray.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then the rest of the story of the Bible is that beast pursuing her and trying to put an end to her line. Because God promised that somewhere along her genealogy of, um-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, uh, one would come-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that would put an end to the beast, instead of the beast putting an end to her.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's the story of the Bible.
Seth: Right.
David: And so it's like there, there is this idea of this woman wrestling with the beast, that finally, no matter how much she's crushed-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... ends up arriving at the wedding beautifully dressed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, well, how'd she get so pretty? It's like, well, in one sense, Ephesians.
Seth: Oh, right.
David: The blood of Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... made her perfect. But also, it has been her suffering through the centuries.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's been her oppression all the way from Genesis to Revelation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that has adorned her for this day.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So I don't know if there's anything else you wanna throw in on that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, like, I've just been thinking about that, like, from-
Seth: The-
David: ... Genesis to Revelation, h- there's been a woman and a beast.
Seth: Yeah, and I mean, Revelation does make mention of this.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Ch- uh, chapter 12, there's this series of images, uh, and the first one is of a woman in labor pains-
David: Mm
Seth: ... giving birth, and there's this dragon crouched at her hips-
David: Mm
Seth: ... ready to, to devour the child as soon as it's, uh, delivered.
David: Right, which is like-
Seth: Uh
David: ... a picture of what's been happening all through-
Seth: Right, so i- in one sense, it's ex- that's exactly what you're talking about.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is a one-image picture of-
David: The whole story of the Bible [chuckles]
Seth: ... the whole story of a Bible.
David: Right.
Seth: That there would be a son born-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who was raised to power, and there's been an enemy, a serpent, a beast, a dragon-
David: Yes
Seth: ... trying to consume that child and any who hope for his coming.
David: Right.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's the story of the Bible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But this woman is rescued time and time again.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's like this rescued woman who, like, yeah, is just involved-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the story, ends up getting married.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Anyway, it's really cool.
Seth: Yeah, the other layer to that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... would be that Revelation gives us this picture of this faithful woman trying to give birth to the Messiah, pursued by the dragon.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: The dragon's cast down to Earth, calls up the beast out of the sea, calls up that, another beast to try to attack the woman yet again, right? There's th-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there's this whole drama we have not talked about-
David: Oh, man
Seth: ... in, in, in these moments.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's in that moment that we're also introduced to an alternate bride-
David: Mm
Seth: ... a false bride, a false woman.
David: Right.
Seth: So we were given this faithful woman giving birth to the Messiah, the people of God. But then we're given this other picture, that she's just called the prostitute, the harlot.
David: Mm.
Seth: And she drinks the blood of the martyrs.
David: Of the martyrs.
Seth: She's a, a personification of the serpent in one way. She's drink- she wants to drink the blood of-
David: Yes, which is what the dragon was trying to do.
Seth: What the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what the, what the dragon was trying to do. And tragically, and this is my view on this, and people disagree with me, I think this woman is the people of God themselves.
David: Mm.
Seth: As in, it's Israel, it's Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the city that drinks the blood of the prophets.
David: Right.
Seth: This is Jesus' critique-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the religious establishment of his, of his time. There is a-... a, a legacy passed down to the, to the people of God, waiting for this Messiah, who, once that Messiah comes and people start following him, want to kill the people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the, the Revelation calls this person the prostitute-
David: Mm.
Seth: -this system, the prostitute, the false bride. She should have been the bride, right?
David: Right, yeah. She looks like a bride.
Seth: She looks like the bride-
David: Right
Seth: ... but she's personifying disobedient-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... heart, like, idolatrous Israel, just like Gomer did in the Book of Hosea.
David: Right.
Seth: And so that's the other picture-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that we're given in the Book of Revelation. You can-
David: So yeah, there's not only a political threat to the bride of Christ-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but there's a religious one.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, a, um, a falsehood-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like a, a duplicity-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that could draw you away from being in the bride-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to being, "Oh, this is kind of bride-ish."
Seth: Right.
David: Where, and that's, like, false teaching and-
Seth: It's false teaching. It's like trusting the old temple system-
David: Right
Seth: ... rather than the new temple of Christ.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: There... Anyway.
David: Fascinating.
Seth: So that, that's maybe a story for another day.
David: Thank you.
Seth: But-
David: No, it's helpful, though. It adds that extra layer to this woman theme, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this bride theme is really helpful. Okay, man. Okay, so that was God's throne.
Seth: And the bride.
David: And the bride. So we've done, we've, we've done the first episode, What Is Revelation? We've looked at the, what, what we've kind of said is the major theme, which is the, uh, blood of the martyrs and, and-
Seth: Conquering
David: ... conquering through suffering.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then we've looked at the two other big themes, this, this marriage that everything's been leading towards, and God's throne, and I think we're gonna wrap up. In the next episode, we're gonna try to wrap up.
Seth: Yeah, I- we haven't really told the whole story of Revelation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We've told it in drips and drabs, and, like, we've been hinting at it, and we've been trying to hold back our desire.
David: Yeah, but we've kind of laid out now what you should focus on, how to understand the symbols. Maybe now we've done the groundwork enough to tell you the story [laughing].
Seth: Yeah. [laughing]
David: So next episode is story time.
Seth: Story time.
David: We're gonna walk through the story of the, of the book.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: That's right.
David: And that's hopefully where we'll land.
Seth: Yes.
David: And maybe a little extra new heavens and new earth, my favorite part.
Seth: Little... Yeah, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Maybe get into a little more of the trumpets, and the seals, and the bowls.
David: Ooh, let's go!
Seth: It's gonna be fun. [laughing]
David: Okay, sweet. All right, well, thank you, guys, for joining us. Uh, we'll see you next time as we wrap up the book of Revelation. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
