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Revelation Overview: Revelation in 60 Minutes

About This Episode

The book of Revelation is a unified story of hope for Christians who are suffering and being persecuted. David and Seth unpack the story of Revelation and how all its complex images tell a beautiful story that ends in a wedding.

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The Story of Revelation: How God's Kingdom Conquers Through Suffering and Brings All Things New

Show Notes

In this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, hosts David and Seth conclude their series on the Book of Revelation by walking through the entire narrative as a cohesive story of hope. Building on previous episodes that explored apocalyptic literature and the major themes of martyrdom, God's sovereignty, and the marriage supper of the Lamb, this episode presents Revelation as one unified narrative designed to encourage suffering believers toward faithful endurance.

Jesus the Priest Tending His Churches in Danger

The story of Revelation opens with a striking vision of Jesus standing among seven golden lampstands. This figure appears dressed like a priest with a golden sash, hair white as snow, and a voice like rushing waters. When John falls at his feet in fear, Jesus declares that he has defeated death and Hades. The lampstands represent the seven churches Jesus addresses, and the imagery draws from the temple where priests tended lamps in the courtyard. Jesus is portrayed as the heavenly priest carefully maintaining and caring for his people.

The seven letters that follow reveal churches facing intense spiritual danger. Some face direct persecution, imprisonment, and death. Others struggle with the temptation to accommodate false teaching or have lost their first love and zeal. Yet the opening vision establishes that despite these grave dangers, Jesus himself is actively tending to his people. Each letter concludes with a call to conquer and persevere through suffering. The priest who tends the lamps encourages them to enter boldly into hardship, promising rewards to those who overcome.

The Scroll, the Seals, and the Necessity of Suffering

Following the letters, John receives a vision of God's throne room where Jesus is given authority to sit beside God himself. This authoritative priest receives a scroll sealed with seven seals that contains the announcement of God's final Kingdom—a realm with no more crying, tears, or sorrow. Only Jesus can open this scroll, and as he breaks each seal, violence erupts on earth. Whether interpreted as the Church going out and facing persecution or as evil empires rising against believers, the common thread is clear: God's people must suffer before the final Kingdom comes.

In the midst of these seals, martyrs cry out asking when God will avenge their blood. The answer comes through the symbolic 144,000—representing all who will die in faith and be united to Jesus. God's response is that judgment will not come until the full number of martyrs has been completed. This reflects the theme explored in earlier episodes: the blood of martyrs purifies the earth and leads to salvation. God delays final judgment because there are more people he wants to save through the faithful witness of suffering believers.

When the seventh seal is opened, heaven falls silent in anticipation of the scroll being read. But instead of reading it immediately, seven trumpets sound. This makes sense when understood through the lens of ancient kingship: a royal decree announcing a new kingdom would be preceded by fanfare. The pattern also mirrors Mount Sinai, where trumpets blared before Moses announced the laws establishing Israel as a nation. These trumpets unleash judgments that echo the plagues of Exodus, serving as an invitation to the oppressing powers to join God's new Kingdom before it's too late—just as a mixed multitude left Egypt with Israel.

Prophetic Interludes and the Church's Mission During Persecution

Between the sixth and seventh trumpets, two significant interludes pause the action to address what believers should do during persecution. In the first, John receives a scroll from an angel and is told to eat it. The scroll tastes sweet but turns bitter in his stomach—a picture of the Gospel message that proclaims the sweet truth that death comes before life, yet requires the bitter willingness to die for eternal reward. John must proclaim this message to all peoples, tribes, and languages.

The second interlude presents two witnesses called lampstands who preach with power reminiscent of Old Testament prophets. They are persecuted by the empire, killed, and their blood drains into the streets. But their blood cries out, empires fall, and people worship God because of their testimony. This living picture reinforces Revelation's central theme: as Christians proclaim the testimony of Jesus and spill their own blood, the world comes to know Jesus and oppressive empires are ultimately crushed. These interludes function as prophetic oracles calling believers to faithful action amid suffering.

When the seventh trumpet finally sounds, the temple in heaven opens and the Ark of the Covenant appears with lightning, thunder, and earthquake. This signals that before the scroll can be fully read, a final battle must occur. The imagery recalls Jericho, where Israel marched around the city carrying the Ark while trumpets blared until the walls fell on the seventh day. The appearance of the Ark indicates that a climactic victory over God's enemies is imminent.

Identifying the Enemy: The Dragon, the Beasts, and Babylon

Before the battle can commence, John defines the enemy through a series of vivid images. Chapter 12 presents a pregnant woman about to give birth while a dragon crouches ready to devour her child. This represents God's people throughout history waiting for the Messiah while an enemy sought to destroy both the child and God's people—the story of the entire Old Testament beginning with the serpent and Eve.

The dragon, thrown down to earth, gathers powers to itself. A beast rises from the sea, representing world powers like Rome emerging from gentile nations. A second beast rises from the land—potentially representing corrupt elements within Israel itself that lend authority to the first beast. Satan evolves his tactics, combining imperial power with false religion to persecute believers. This describes the historical reality where both Jewish religious authorities and Roman imperial power joined forces to kill Jesus and persecute his followers.

The 144,000 appear again, having maintained faithfulness and allegiance to God rather than taking the mark of the beast. A voice from heaven pronounces blessing on those who die in the Lord. Then comes the famous image of grapes poured into the winepress of God's wrath, producing blood that floods the earth. This may represent either the destruction of God's enemies or the blood of the martyrs that evokes God's wrath against their persecutors. Either way, the full number of martyrs has now been killed, and God responds by pouring out seven bowls of judgment—priestly images of sacrificial blood being sprinkled for purification, echoing Moses sprinkling blood on Israel at Sinai to establish them as God's people.

The Fall of Babylon and the Victory of the Lamb

Chapter 17 introduces a great prostitute riding the dragon and drinking the blood of martyrs. While Israel is never called Babylon in Scripture, only Israel is ever described as a prostitute—God's unfaithful wife who allies with foreign powers instead of trusting God alone. The Old Testament prophets Jeremiah and Hosea repeatedly use this imagery. This prostitute kills God's prophets and drinks their blood, exactly what Jesus accused Jerusalem of doing as "the city that kills its prophets." The vivid picture represents Israel at her worst, ultimately because she killed Jesus—the ultimate martyr—by colluding with Rome.

The destruction of Babylon marks the end of the temple-based world order that persecuted Jesus and his followers in partnership with Rome. Chapter 18 celebrates this fall with songs, and believers are invited to the wedding feast. Yet a problem remains: Rome still exists. Even after the temple's destruction in AD 70, imperial power continued persecuting Christians. Revelation addresses this through the image of Jesus riding a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood (his own, since no battle has yet occurred), followed by armies dressed in white linen—the martyrs who have already spilled their blood. With only the word from his mouth, the nations are destroyed. The testimony of Jesus and the testimony of martyrs together undo oppressive empires.

Following the destruction of false religion and corrupt empire, Satan himself is finally thrown into a pit, never to rise again. The three enemies form a chiasm: Satan is introduced first, then the beast from the sea, then the beast from the land. They are destroyed in reverse order—Babylon (the second beast), the nations (the first beast), and finally Satan. All enemies of God are eliminated.

The New Jerusalem and the Unveiling of Who We Already Are

With all enemies destroyed, heaven comes down to earth. The scroll is finally read, and its message is simple: "Behold, I am making all things new." God declares himself the Alpha and Omega, promising that those who conquer will inherit everything—he will be their God and they will be his children. This echoes Moses's covenant declaration when establishing Israel as a nation.

John sees the New Jerusalem descending as a perfect cube measuring 12,000 stadia in each dimension. The only other structure in Scripture measured as a perfect cube is the Holy of Holies—the innermost sanctuary where God's presence dwelled and only one high priest could enter once a year. God's people have become the burning center of his activity in the new creation. There is no temple because believers themselves are the temple with Jesus. There is no sun or moon because God himself is their light.

The absence of celestial bodies carries profound meaning. Throughout Scripture, stars govern times and seasons, and kings are described as stars because empires define eras of history. Throughout Revelation, stars fall from the sky—representing the end of worldly powers that define human existence. In the new heavens and new earth, only God determines time. There are no more seasons, no more rise and fall of empires, no more turning wheel of history bringing new horrors. There is only one eternal governor and endless light.

This vision is not merely about the future. It reveals who believers already are in Christ. Paul declares the Church has been made spotless by Jesus's blood. The New Jerusalem represents how God sees his people right now, though not yet fully unveiled. Revelation's apocalypse—its unveiling—shows suffering believers that they are already the center of God's creative activity, already seated on thrones, already his holy bride. The book that began promising to reveal things that must soon take place ends with Jesus declaring, "Surely I am coming soon." John responds with the prayer that should be on every believer's lips: "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Transcript

Seth: [electronic music] This is a picture of how God comes and destroys the empires of the world.

David: Mm.

Seth: There will be a day coming when the empires of the world, the power of the state, will be undone by Jesus with a robe dipped in blood-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and a whole bunch of other martyrs clothed in white who have also died for the name of Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And by the simple words coming out of his mouth, they are utterly destroyed.

Intro: [electronic music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We are hopefully concluding our look at the Book of Revelation today.

Seth: Yes.

David: And, uh, to give you an overview of where we've been so far, in case this is your first video or podcast, we started off with looking at what is the Book of Revelation, what is apocalyptic literature. Start there. If you've missed that one, please start there. Then we looked at kind of the, the biggest three themes through the book in two episodes. The first we looked at was the theme of the blood of the martyrs and conquering through suffering, and then in the third episode, we looked at the two themes of God's throne and sovereignty and control and the bride, uh, and the marriage supper of the lamb. So, uh, that's what we've looked at so far, and we feel like hopefully at this point we've now laid down the foundation well enough to just walk through the book as a narrative-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and look at it like a story and get it all in your head.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So how you feeling about that, Seth? You feeling excited about that?

Seth: I'm feeling really great. One of the things we said at the very, very first episode, in the very first words that John uses to write the Book of Revelation, is this is an apocalypse.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Uh, and we talked about how apocalypse is meant to give hope to people-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... through a story.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, so we really wanted to just lean into that and give the story of Revelation-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in as best of a narrative as we could try for all you to read it on, on your own. So.

David: Yes, so I think what we're gonna enter into here, I'm just gonna kinda put parentheses around what's about to happen, 'cause it's probably, hopefully plays out a little different than normal.

Seth: Okay.

David: That's what I'm gonna say.

Seth: Yes.

David: Is w- I'm gonna let Seth kinda walk us through the story of the book.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I'm gonna try to speak for you guys w- [laughs] when I get confused.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But other than that, I just wanna listen to the story of the book-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and kind of follow you through it, and then we can have a conversation after that.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But I'm, like, what is this-

Seth: Yes

David: ... story of hope-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that God has given to those suffering for Jesus-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in the Book of Revelation? What's the story?

Seth: So the story opens with the problem real, live people are facing in seven churches.

David: Hmm.

Seth: Right? But before we get to the problems in seven churches, we're given a vision of this shining figure in the very opening. There's a voice speaking in the middle of seven golden lampstands, and in the middle of the lampstands is one like a son of man, clothed in long robes with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs on his head are white. He's blazing. He looks like burnished bronze, but he speaks, it sounds like the roar of rushing waters coming out of his mouth, and John is immediately falls on his face in fear, worshiping this figure, and this figure says, "I have defeated death and Hades."

David: [laughs]

Seth: It is a vision of Jesus tending seven lamps in this kinda cosmic space. So it's, like, this kinda strange image that we're not used to, but to the people reading this, they would've understood that Jesus is dressed like a priest. He's got a sash like a priest. He's dressed like a priest. And what priests tend to in one part of the courtyard were these lampstands. There's these seven lamps in the courtyard of the temple, and Jesus is tending to them, right? And then he immediately says, "These seven lampstands that Jesus is tending to is you, churches," and he calls the seven churches he's about to address the lampstands that Jesus is tending to.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then he goes and he unpacks in seven different letters intense spiritual danger.

David: Hmm.

Seth: Seven different ways, framing and explaining and speaking to temptations and dangers that the people are facing, whether direct persecution and imprisonment and death, or the temptation to, like, uh, accommodate to false teaching-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or to, uh, accept, like, a, a, a lack of love and a lack of zeal in their faith. Like, just a church in grave spiritual danger.

David: Hmm.

Seth: But this church in grave spiritual d- danger is being tended to by Jesus.

David: Hmm.

Seth: That's how the story starts, okay?

David: I love it.

Seth: Any questions?

David: No, that's beautiful.

Seth: Uh-

David: Jesus is the priest, and we are the lamps in his temple that he's tending to.

Seth: Making sure we stay lit.

David: That's right.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: Giving us a little bit of oil when we need it.

David: I love it.

Seth: That's the picture.

David: That's beautiful.

Seth: But the call at the end of each of these-

David: Little letters

Seth: ... these li- little letters is to conquer-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... and to persevere and to endure suffering. The way in which this priest is tending the lamps is to encourage them to enter into suffering boldly.

David: Hmm.

Seth: And so he gives them a story A series of visions to help them conquer, to encourage them to conquer-

David: I see

Seth: ... to give them hope in the midst of suffering.

David: Okay.

Seth: And the first vision is of a throne room-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of God sitting on a throne and Jesus being given the authority to sit next to God himself. So not only is he a priest tending him, he's an authoritative priest.

David: Mm.

Seth: He's got the power of God behind him to tend and keep these seven churches, right?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And as Jesus ascends to his throne, he's given a scroll, and on this scroll are seven seals, so you can't open it.

David: Okay.

Seth: And Jesus is the only one that can open them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: For the purpose of this story, there's a s- there's a... No one can open the scroll except Jesus, and on the inside of this scroll is the announcement of God's final kingdom, where he is with his people perfectly and finally, where there's no more crying, no more tears, no more sorrow. The end of the world as they knew it and the start of God's forever kingdom is written on the scroll.

David: Mm.

Seth: And Jesus is there to open the scroll, right?

David: Rock on. [laughs]

Seth: Rock on.

David: Yeah, I love it.

Seth: And so what he does is he pops off the seven wax seals sealing this scroll shut.

David: Okay.

Seth: And as he pops them off, violence starts happening-

David: Oh

Seth: ... on the earth. Now, there's a couple different ways to read this. We've just seen Jesus enthroned in heaven.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He is now ready to read the scroll of history and bring his kingdom come. So what do we expect to be described? Kind of just a, at a blank, historical sense.

David: Mm.

Seth: Oh, the actions of the church in the world. He's b- been resurrected, and his people are now ready to act like the church in the world, and so some scholars think, uh... and what we read is the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

David: Mm.

Seth: That's the first of the four seals. So some scholars think that this is, like, the actions of the Church. As the Church goes out, they are the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse preaching the gospel, and as they do so, persecution rises up.

David: Mm.

Seth: Empires rise up. Death follows them. Antagonism towards the way of Jesus. Think of, like, Stephen preaching-

David: Oh, right. Yeah

Seth: ... the gospel and immediately being stoned. Or think about the ways in which, uh, the early Christians, like Agabus, prophesied famines.

David: Mm.

Seth: You know, the way Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead when they lied about the way that they were handling their money donated to the Church. The Church goes out in power, but it also is with death and persecution and antagonism.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's one way to read it.

David: Okay.

Seth: These seals are the, uh, [laughs] the actions of the Church, or they're the first actions of the powers against the Church.

David: Oh, man, those are very different.

Seth: I... Right. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: Right. Um, either way, though, Jesus is sitting on his throne, and he wants to open the kingdom, the scroll and announce the coming of the Kingdom of God, and there is, on the Earth, a season of violence.

David: I see.

Seth: Uh, right?

David: And so to clarify-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in order to open up the scroll that tells the end of God's eternal kingdom-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... some kind of suffering and violence has to happen.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's kinda the common denominator between the two views-

Seth: That's right. That's right

David: ... is either the Church goes out and they suffer, or the evil empire rides out and causes the Church to suffer.

Seth: Yes.

David: Either way, in order for the final kingdom to come, God's people have to suffer.

Seth: That's right, and right in the middle of these seals, this is when... We've talked about this already, but a first group of martyrs cries out and says, "God, when, when will you avenge our blood?"

David: Highlighting that idea of God's people suffering.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: So, like, in order for the kingdom to come-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... God's people must suffer.

David: Okay.

Seth: A-

David: That's the seals

Seth: ... that's the seals.

David: Copy.

Seth: And they ask, "When is this gonna happen?" And then we get this story about a group of people named the 144,000.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And it's symbolic of all those who will one day die in the faith-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and be united to Jesus. And the answer God gives to these people wondering how long it will be until God avenges their blood, His, his answer is, "Not until the full number of the martyrs comes in. Not until the full number of my people have suffered."

David: Mm.

Seth: "That's when the kingdom will come," right?

David: Yes.

Seth: So the seven seals are opened, and there's a prophecy that before the scroll can be read b- in its fullness, before the kingdom can come, there's suffering that needs to happen, a purification of God's own people-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that needs to happen, or a glorification of God's own people.

David: Right.

Seth: They need to sit on their thrones.

David: Yeah.

Seth: There are people that have not taken their throne in heaven yet, and they must sit on their throne before the kingdom comes.

David: Mm.

Seth: I can't rule the whole kingdom by myself, guys.

David: Right.

Seth: And so I need people on my side before the kingdom comes.

David: Yeah. Yeah, I see. And, and another way to think about it, like, what are you waiting for, what's the full number, is, like, what we talked about in the second episode, that we, when we looked at the blood of the martyrs, are purifying the earth.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: And God's like, "There's more good I wanna do on the earth."

Seth: Mm, mm.

David: And so-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the more... It sounds weird, but it's like the more that my people suffer, the more people get saved.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's like I'm not ready yet to avenge 'cause there's more people I wanna save.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's right. So God says this suffering must come.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But he eventually pops off all seven seals, right?

David: Yep.

Seth: And as soon as he pops off the seventh seal, there is total silence in heaven.

David: Mm.

Seth: Do you know why?

David: No.

Seth: Because they're waiting for him to read it.

David: Oh, duh. [laughs]

Seth: Right. [laughs] It's, it's so obvious. It's so obvious.

David: I would've... I mean, I guess I probably would've been, "Oh, the seventh seal is quiet. The day of rest, the Sabbath." Which may be.

Seth: Which may be.

David: But yeah, it's just like they're quiet. Why?

Seth: Open the scroll and read it.

David: Open the scroll and read it.

Seth: So they're all popped off. He opens the scroll to read it, but he doesn't read it.

David: What?

Seth: Instead, seven trumpets sound.

David: But quiet trumpets don't... [laughs]

Seth: Uh, uh, but think about the, think about it from the perspective of God as a king.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He has an edict-

David: Mm

Seth: ... for the inauguration of a new kingdom.

David: A royal decree.

Seth: A royal decree at the beginning of a new world order. It's been sealed for a long time. It's ready. The seals pop off, and what is an edict of a king announced with?Fanfare

David: [laughs]

Seth: Trumpets blaring-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of the dawning of the new Kingdom of God, right?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And this also makes sense of the way the Old Testament Kingdom of Israel was established in the first place. In the Old Testament, when Israel was announced on Mount Sinai-

David: Yep

Seth: ... Moses was given not a scroll, but tablets-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that were the laws of a kingdom.

David: Right.

Seth: And then while he's on Mount Sinai, trumpets blare before he comes out and announces the laws to his people.

David: Right.

Seth: So when Israel was first became a nation, there was a s- there was a scroll of a kind, writings from God that announced the beginning of a kingdom

David: A kingdom

Seth: ... that where fanfare, trumpets, came along with it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So it's following the pattern of the Old Testament-

David: Yes

Seth: ... but also of all kings-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... announcing the beginning of a new era.

David: Okay, so the trumpets blow.

Seth: So the trumpets blow, and what the trumpets do is they unleash another set of judgments on the earth, another set of sufferings on the earth. And in particular, these sufferings all repeat and are variations of the

Seth: plagues that happen in the Book of Exodus.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So are they... Is there a debate about where they're focused? Are they focused on like, oh, the church suffers, or is it against God's enemies? Is it universal?

Seth: It depends on your view.

David: Okay.

Seth: And it could be both and.

David: Yep.

Seth: But I think the purpose here, if you think about the establishment of a new nation, before Israel got to Mount Sinai, they were in Egypt.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The establishment of a new nation begins in Egypt, right?

David: Right. Yeah

Seth: When they're freed from their oppressors and in a fire, in a rainfall of plagues, right?

David: Yes.

Seth: And during that time, what is the hope of the plagues? What is the purpose-

David: Oh

Seth: ... of the plagues?

David: It was that to change Pharaoh's heart so he would let God's people go.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so in this particular se- place, there's suffering happening-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... against the people of God at the hands of world powers.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And there is a whole host of plagues being poured out on the earth to change the heart of the world powers-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to join the people of God so that God can create a new nation with. The trumpets are an invitation-

David: Right

Seth: ... to the new kingdom-

David: Of course

Seth: ... of those who are currently oppressing God's people.

David: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense, like a trumpet. It's like-

Seth: Right

David: ... "Look over here." [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. It's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... "Here's the trumpet. Come and join."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "This is your last... You can join the nation if you choose to."

David: Yeah. Okay.

Seth: And in Egypt, what happened? A lot of people did come from Egypt with Israel to establish a new kingdom.

David: There was a mixed multitude.

Seth: A mixed multitude.

David: Yeah. Okay.

Seth: That's right. So I think that's what's happening here.

David: Yes.

Seth: Okay?

David: Okay.

Seth: The blaring of the trumpets-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in anticipation of the reading of the scroll that announces the beginning of God's kingdom.

David: Okay. I have a question about the suffering.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Should I wait until the next seven to ask it? 'Cause is there gonna be more suffering?

Seth: There is more suffering to come.

David: I'll just wait.

Seth: You'll just wait.

David: Keep going.

Seth: One of the things that we could talk about here is like when does this suffering happen? Is this suffering in the abstract? This goes back to like when do you date the book?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: I gave the example of, of Stephen previously.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like imagine like the gospel writing out and the first martyr is Stephen.

David: Right.

Seth: He's crying in heaven.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When is this gonna end?

David: Right.

Seth: And we've talked previously, too, about how these events are descriptive of the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 1870 by the Roman Empire.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So it could be the case that while the seals could describe the suffering of the early church, these are indicative of a new era of suffering, not just by Jews, because the suffering of the early church was mainly happened to Christians by their Jewish brothers and sisters.

David: Right. Think about Saul.

Seth: But think about Saul.

David: Right.

Seth: Right. That's exactly right. Saul is a great example-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because Stephen is martyred, Saul immediately starts persecuting more Christians.

David: Right.

Seth: Right. So a lot of the persecution happened within-

David: Judaism

Seth: ... within Judaism.

David: Yep.

Seth: But these are descriptive of a, an empire like Pharaoh's empire.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And during the reign of Nero-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... this ramped up s- significantly-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in the 80, in the years 1864 to 1868, so just up to two years before the fall of Jerusalem.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So it's possible that that's when this is happening. Uh, the other view here is that this is just symbolic of suffering throughout all eras of church history.

David: Right. The church is always being persecuted.

Seth: That's right.

David: Right.

Seth: Uh, so anyway-

David: Okay

Seth: ... uh, that's where we are now.

David: Cool.

Seth: So, um, the empires of the world are invited to join the coming Kingdom of God as the tr-

David: Through these different plagues

Seth: ... through the trumpets being-

David: Okay

Seth: ... being blared. And now there are two little interludes-

David: Okay

Seth: ... where the action kinda stops. We're only at, I believe, trumpet six. So before the seventh trumpet, uh, is blown-

David: Yep

Seth: ... we have two interludes and two separate stories, and they are descriptions of what the church should be doing, the lampstands should be doing while they experience this new era of persecution.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: Okay?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So it's like during this time when there's judgment coming upon the empires of the world in hopes that they would join the Kingdom of God, what is your job-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Christians? And so John sees a vision of an angel giving him a scroll.

David: Oh.

Seth: Just like Jesus was given a scroll.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he's told to eat it.

David: The angel is supposed to eat it?

Seth: John is supposed to eat it.

David: John's supposed to eat it.

Seth: John's supposed to eat the scroll, and he says it's going to taste sweet, uh, but it'll be bitter in his stomach.

David: Mm.

Seth: But this is the message he must proclaim nevertheless, uh, he should announce it to all peoples, tribes, languages, and tongues.

David: Okay.

Seth: The second image is of these two witnesses.

David: Yes.

Seth: These two characters who are called lampstands.

David: Okay.

Seth: And they are proclaiming the gospel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They're preaching, and they have all these signs associated with the Old Testament prophets. They are living out the Old Testament realities of people who are speaking the word of God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Right? But they are persecuted by the empire. They are killed. Their blood drains into the streets.

David: Mm.

Seth: But eventually, that blood cries out, and then the empires fall.And people worship God because of their testimony.

David: Okay.

Seth: Okay?

David: Yep.

Seth: So these are the two, the two images-

David: Little interludes. Okay

Seth: ... and the interludes. What I think this is a picture of-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is during AD 64 to 68, during the reign of Nero-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... at the very least.

David: At the very least.

Seth: Perhaps all-

David: Or during all persecution-

Seth: All per-

David: ... at the very most

Seth: ... the message that Christian, the sweet message that tastes bitter-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is that death

Seth: comes before life.

David: Right.

Seth: And we must be willing to die in order to experience eternal life and-

David: Right

Seth: ... a throne with God.

David: Which is what we explored in the second episode.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: That's like the main theme of Revelation.

Seth: And then these two lampstands-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who are acting like Old Testament prophets, who die under the nations-

David: Oh

Seth: ... are brought back to life, and the nations are judged and repent based on their actions in the world. So this is the same thing we've been talking about this whole time.

David: That's right. It's a living picture of-

Seth: It's a living picture

David: ... that reality.

Seth: That as Christians are willing to proclaim the testimony of Jesus-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and spill their own blood, the world itself will come to know Jesus, and the empires themselves will be crushed.

David: Okay.

Seth: Okay.

David: That makes sense.

Seth: That's right. And then the seventh trumpet is blown.

David: Okay.

Seth: So at the end of the seven trumpets, what do we expect? We expect the reading of the scroll-

David: Right, yeah

Seth: ... right?

David: Duh.

Seth: Um, and so we're-

David: Quiet down again. We're gonna read it.

Seth: Yeah, we're gonna read it, but when the seventh trumpet is blown, what we see in the heavens is found in chapter 11, verse 19. "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the Ark of the Covenant was seen within his temple."

David: Oh.

Seth: "And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a heavy hail." [laughs] So the seventh

Seth: trumpet is blasted, and then the courtrooms of heaven's temple are opened, and then we see God's Ark-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the symbol of his power and authority revealed.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay? That's significant for a couple different reasons that I haven't mentioned yet.

David: Oh, boy.

Seth: So not only do trumpets in the Old Testament signify the beginning of a nation-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... they also signify the start of a battle.

David: Right, yeah. I'm, I'm thinking like Jericho.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And what did Jericho, how did that battle occur? They walked around it for seven days.

David: Carrying the Ark.

Seth: Seven, carrying the Ark.

David: Blowing trumpets.

Seth: And then on the seventh day, trumpets were blown-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and the city fell.

David: Totally.

Seth: Right? So okay, now that, so we expected the thing to be read, right?

David: Right.

Seth: But it's like, oh, wait a second. Now that the empires of the world are, are judged for a period of time and Christians are remaining faithful, the Ark is suddenly seen. Oh, we expect a final battle. We expect-

David: Right

Seth: ... a final trumpet blast-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that brings down the empires of the world in a climactic way-

David: Right

Seth: ... so that we can be victorious.

David: Yes. Was it on the seventh day that Jericho fell?

Seth: Yeah, seventh day.

David: Okay, seventh trumpet. Okay.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: I'm tracking.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: I'm tracking. Okay.

Seth: So we are then given seven pictures. [laughs]

David: Oh, gosh. Okay.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Hold on. Hold on.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Okay.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: 'Cause I was, I was hanging on by a thread-

Seth: Right

David: ... from the last interlude.

Seth: Okay.

David: So why the, can I, I just gotta stop.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, why the interludes?

Seth: Okay.

David: Like, why not just be like s- here's seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls, and then some other stories? [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

David: Like why interrupt the-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... order of things?

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

David: Uh.

Seth: Uh.

David: Yeah, 'cause it just, like, throws you for a loop.

Seth: I mean, this isn't just apocalyptic literature.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's not just a narrative. It's also a prophecy.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And what did the Old Testament prophets call people to do? They-

David: Repent

Seth: ... to repent, to, or to do what God in-

David: Yeah, to obey

Seth: ... to obey.

David: To obey, right.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so these, I think these are the prophetic oracles-

David: Mm

Seth: ... throughout it in some way.

David: Right, 'cause he says, "I have an apocalypse for you, and listen to this prophecy."

Seth: Yeah, and I have-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... teaching instruction. Y- there's a moral aspect to this book-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in which it's encouraging people to be faithful and to persevere-

David: Right

Seth: ... and to conquer, despite the cost.

David: Okay. I think I get that, 'cause there's like, if you, you're blowing the trumpets, and, you know, Babylon or, you know, the empires of the world are being judged.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, okay, I see that happening. What am I supposed to do during this time? Like you said-

Seth: Right

David: ... is like, you need to remember that you might have to die too-

Seth: Yes

David: ... but life and the expansion of the kingdom will come out on the other side.

Seth: Yes.

David: Remember that, okay? All right, on with the trumpets.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Okay, now the trumpets have blown. The Ark is here. Final battle time.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I'm like, great, let's go. Battle time. And then is he going, "Wait, let me teach you again"?

Seth: Uh, I don't-

David: Is he interrupting the narrative?

Seth: I don't know. [laughs]

David: Okay. [laughs] Yeah, that's fair.

Seth: There's a point at that my knowledge ends. [laughs]

David: I, yeah. Everyone's, yes.

Seth: Yeah, we're at the limits of my knowledge here.

David: [laughs] Yeah.

Seth: So I honestly don't know, but maybe if I describe it to you, we can come up with an answer.

David: Sure. I just at least wanted to voice my-

Seth: Uh

David: ... my, where, where my brain's at right now.

Seth: I think, I mean, if we were just to follow the narrative-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... we could probably skip over, in some ways, to the seven plagues, or to chapter 14.

David: Oh, sure.

Seth: We could skip over a little bit, but to just to narrate the story-

David: Yeah, keep going

Seth: ... as opposed to what's going on.

David: Yeah, I, I just want to be like, okay, I'm just noticing what the interludes are doing to me right now.

Seth: Yes.

David: And I'm, I'm just preparing for the next one.

Seth: Yes.

David: So the seventh trumpet blows, the Ark comes in, and I'm like, great, read the scroll and let's go to battle.

Seth: Yes.

David: We got everything we need.

Seth: Yep, and so-

David: And it's like, okay, well, hold on.

Seth: Before the scroll can be read, a battle needs to be had.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And which I guess, I'm, I'm peeking ahead at the titles-

Seth: Yes

David: ... of, or my chapters, and I'm like, oh, well, before we go to battle, who's the enemy?

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, okay.

Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's great.

David: I'm like-

Seth: That's super helpful

David: ... that's, I'm like, okay, that makes sense.

Seth: Uh, so when-

David: Who are we fighting?

Seth: So yeah, so John then de- defines the enemy.

David: Okay, great.

Seth: And he starts in chapter 12 by giving this picture of a pregnant woman about to give birth with a dragon crouched at her hips. And I-

David: [laughs] Yep.

Seth: [laughs] And-

David: We talked about this in the last episode

Seth: ... we did.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And this is a v- this is a picture of God's people throughout all time-

David: Right

Seth: ... that G- God's people have been waiting for the Messiah to be born.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And there's been an enemy trying to swallow that child up-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and swallow God's people up at the same time.

David: Right.

Seth: That's been the story that's, of the whole Old Testament.

David: Yeah, it's the serpent with Eve.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: Um, and then that story evolves-

David: Mm

Seth: ... into the current era that these people are living in.

David: Okay.

Seth: So he describes this s- this kind of cosmic serpent and woman. She's got like s- 12 crown, stars around her head, but this serpent is thrown down to the earth.

David: Okay.

Seth: And while it's on the earth, it starts gathering powers to itself. It calls up out of a s- the sea, a, um, a beastWe talked about this in the very, very first episode.

David: Yes.

Seth: And Satan calls up out of the sea this beast that looks a lot like the beast from Daniel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And they symbolize a world power-

David: Yes

Seth: ... coming up out of the sea, more than likely in my opinion, a, a reference to like the gentile nations.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So maybe, so maybe Rome.

David: Sure.

Seth: So Satan is calling upon the powers of Rome-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to, uh, help it in its battle to kill the Messiah.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Or, or at least the, the followers of the Messiah.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: And then there's a second beast that comes up out of the land. And real- this is an interpretive point that we have not talked about.

David: Mm.

Seth: But all over you'll see the world, the words earth and world-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... used throughout the whole Book of Revelation. They are very specific terms, and oftentimes it is the word land-

David: Mm

Seth: ... which is a ve- it's kind of like a coded Hebrew way to talk about the land of Israel. [laughs]

David: Oh, sure.

Seth: Uh-

David: The Promised Land.

Seth: Right. And so I-

David: The place where we're supposed to be, where the kingdom is.

Seth: That's, that's, that's right.

David: Yeah, totally.

Seth: So coming up out of the land-

David: Oh, could mean like this was an Israelite.

Seth: This was an Israelite. And we-

David: Oh.

Seth: Uh-

David: Yeah. Oh-

Seth: And-

David: We, you had mentioned this in the first episode.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: That's right. So there's another force that lends its authority to the first beast-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to attack the people of God.

David: Right.

Seth: So this seems to be describing is that Satan is evolving his tactics to attack the people of God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He's not just gonna use Judaism. He's not gonna just use Rome. There's gonna be a combination of-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... fa- [laughs] of Judaism and Rome to persecute the believers of God, [laughs] right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And this, and this is just a crazy image. You know, you could imagine being totally overwhelmed by this.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then as the enemy has been defined, John looks up one more time, and then he sees 144,000 people.

David: Again.

Seth: Again. He sees the, the number of those who are supposed to be slain for the faith, right?

David: Oh, right, but in the first time they were introduced, we were just told how many there would be.

Seth: Yes.

David: But, like, the judgment wouldn't happen until they were all there.

Seth: That's right.

David: Are they all there now?

Seth: Well, that's what I think is happening-

David: Oh

Seth: ... in this passage.

David: Okay.

Seth: So he sees, he sees them, and they don't take the mark of the beast. They maintain the Shema.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Not, uh, they maintain faithfulness and allegiance to God.

David: Right. Which if you don't-

Seth: Um

David: ... know what we're talking about, go back to the first episode.

Seth: Yeah, go back, yeah, go back to the first episode. Yes. And they appear right here.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then Jesus or an angel starts speaking and he says, uh, there's a voice heard in heaven speaking to John, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Blessed indeed says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them." So there's just this moment at the end of the, the naming of the enemy, of the defining of the enemy, of the combined forces of empire and false religion.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There is this n- final call for faithfulness of God's people, right?

David: Yep.

Seth: And then there's a great harvest-

David: Mm

Seth: ... on the earth. And this is a really famous image in the Book of Revelation, but it ends with a whole bunch of grapes being poured into a wine press of God's wrath.

David: Right.

Seth: And the image is of God stamping on these grapes. Or that's the way I've, uh, that's the way, that's the way it's b- e- most easily read, God stamping on these grapes, and blood pours out of this wine press, uh, and fills up the earth, [laughs] uh, as high as a horse's bridle for m- hundreds of miles in any d- one direction.

David: It's like a new flood.

Seth: It's like a new flood of blood. Yeah.

David: Flood of blood.

Seth: And so what's happening here is the question.

David: I, I, I was just about to ask that. [laughs]

Seth: Uh, so we've, we've named the beast. We have seen the new martyrs.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: And so there's a difference of interpretation here. Some people will say, well, this is a destruction of God's enemies. Those that have had the mark of the beast-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... are thrown into the wine press of God's wrath, and in that moment, God judges them.

David: Mm.

Seth: He vindicates his people in that moment. They've been named, right?

David: Right.

Seth: They've been named. They've been sealed, so God can finally destroy the enemies, the followers of the beast, and inaugurate his kingdom, right?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Another way to read this is that the wine coming out of this wine press-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is actually the, the blood of the martyrs.

David: Mm.

Seth: And this evokes God's wrath.

David: I see.

Seth: The beast and false religion have joined. They have killed the 144,000.

David: Oh.

Seth: And there's a wine press flooding the streets of Jerusalem.

David: Right.

Seth: And God

Seth: is angry-

David: Well, yeah

Seth: ... at the blood of his people.

David: I mean, I, I could see that making sense 'cause, uh, you know, earlier on we read this idea of the martyrs saying, "When are you gonna-

Seth: Mm

David: ... take action?"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "When are we gonna go to battle?"

Seth: That's right.

David: And he says, "Once 144,000 have died."

Seth: Yes.

David: Well, now 144,000 have gathered.

Seth: Yep.

David: Blood is spilled, and now it's time to act.

Seth: Right. Which is why the next set of seven judgments is a set of seven bowls.

David: Okay.

Seth: And this is 16 verse one. "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, 'Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.'"

David: Yep.

Seth: We were just told what the wrath of God was. He is angry at the fact that 144,000 of his own, and I think that's symbolic-

David: Symbolic number

Seth: ... all of God's people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... have been martyred and killed by the combined forces of imperial power and false religion.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he is coming to judge, and the way that he's gonna judge, he's gonna take the blood of the martyrs and pour it back out onto-

David: Mm

Seth: ... evil itself.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's the way it will be finally judged. They will be a sacrifice. So going back to why is it a bowl?

David: I, I was just about to ask. Okay.

Seth: Because a bowl is an image of a sacrifice. This is a priestly image.

David: Yes.

Seth: And what do priests do? They take blood out of something-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to purify something.

David: Right.

Seth: So when, and think about this. We were talking about k- establishment of a kingdom. Whenever Israel was first made a kingdom on top of Mount Sinai-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... there was a scroll or a tablet.

David: A tablet, yeah.

Seth: There was trumpets being blared, and then Moses took a bowl full of blood and sprinkled it on his people and he said-You are now my people.

David: Well, that... Okay.

Seth: Right? [laughs] So it's like, and this was supposed to purify them-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and mark them as God's own.

David: So why is it called the bowl of God's wrath if it's a bowl of God's purification?

Seth: Well, because Go- that's what wrath does. Wrath-

David: Wrath purifies

Seth: ... wrath purifies. God's justice at evil is being poured out on the earth, and He's wiping it out.

David: Oh, I see. So it does one of two things.

Seth: Yes.

David: Either people see the wrath and respond in repentance, thus being purified-

Seth: Yes

David: ... or they remain hard-hearted like Pharaoh-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and they are blotted out, therefore purifying the land-

Seth: That's right

David: ... of their injustice.

Seth: Yeah. And-

David: I see

Seth: ... good call on using Pharaoh because all these are repetitions of Pharaoh-like plagues.

David: Ah.

Seth: Um, they're all, like, mutated and horrific and, like, giant, but these are what's happening, a repetition of the plagues that kicked off the start-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of God's people. Um-

David: Which that makes sense. It's like-

Seth: Right

David: ... and why did God send the plagues in the first place? God's people cried out from persecution in Exodus.

Seth: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

David: They're like, "Lord, we're being persecuted in Exodus. How long are, are we... Like, aren't You going to come and bring us back to our land and make a kingdom?" And he's like, "Yes-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and I'll free you with these plagues." And He does it again.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's a new Exodus story.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay, cool.

Seth: That's right. And then so these, the blood of the martyrs has finally been filled up.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's being poured out on the earth as a judgment against them, l- like, this efficacious cleansing blood of the martyrs kind of-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... you know, this kind of crazy idea. And then the seventh bowl, when it's finally poured out, there's this just giant, massive, what feels like the end of the world. The seventh bowl is poured out, uh, and there were flashes of lightning, rumbles, peals of thunder, a great earthquake such as never has been since man was on the earth. So great was that earthquake, the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fled, and God remembered Babylon the Great to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath. He's making Babylon drink-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the cup of the martyrs she has killed. And great hailstones fell down. About 100 pounds each fell from heaven, and they cursed God for the plague of hail because the plague was so severe. So, so this is a picture of God vindicating those He has that have-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... been faithful to Him, even unto death.

David: Right.

Seth: Questions.

David: Ye- uh, y- yeah. I'm, I'm nervous to ask the question 'cause I, what I love the way you're telling the story is it's helping me understand how the book's laid out and especially what message it's communicating-

Seth: Yep

David: ... uh, like, using the Old Testament, and it's, it's communicating these themes, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's communicating ideas.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's really helpful. So I don't know if this question is helpful or not, but I, I bet every single person listening is thinking it [laughs] and it's just like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what is all this about? Like, like, and I know we talked about there's different ways to interpret it, obviously.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But should we be waiting for hailstones?

Seth: So-

David: Was there a-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... was there a thunderstorm at a certain year that this is referring to? Is it y- is it talking-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... about anti-aircraft missiles? Like, [laughs] you think that's-

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Obviously, that's the question everybody's asking.

Seth: So I think a really compelling reading, not the only one-

David: Yep

Seth: ... I do- I don't know. I'm 65% sure [laughs] this might be the way to read it.

David: Sure. [laughs]

Seth: Uh, but I think the seven seals are indicative of the suffering the early church experienced.

David: Okay.

Seth: I think the seven trumpets are the heightened persecution underneath Nero.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And these seven bowls are the destruction of Jerusalem.

David: Okay.

Seth: This is Isre- this is the old world order finally falling apart-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the new world order of God's kingdom from heaven with His people, the church, being established. And so these are progressions on one another.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Incremental progressions of s- of persecution leading to the inauguration of a new kingdom.

David: Great.

Seth: That's one way to read it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The other way to read it is that the seven seals and the seven trumpets and the seven bowls functionally talk about the same thing.

David: Right.

Seth: They bo- all three of them end with a fairly stark announcement of the end of the world.

David: Right, something very cataclysmic.

Seth: Um, and so people read this, this is the idealistic-

David: Mm-hmm, that we talked about in the first episode

Seth: ... yeah, or the, the, the recapitulationist position or the pattern, or the pattern reading, which is the, is the other one I find most compelling-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is that no, these are symbolic of all time.

David: Right.

Seth: God's people will suffer, but God's enemies will be judged until one final day when the world is totally remade.

David: Right.

Seth: And then the story starts again-

David: Right

Seth: ... to show us that th- same thing from a different perspective.

David: Yes.

Seth: I think you gave the analogy of a football-

David: A football game

Seth: ... a football game, and the Book of Revelation is giving us three different sets of seven, one set of seven of judgment and recreation from the front row, one from the b- the nosebleeds, and one from the blimp in the air.

David: But it's the same game every time.

Seth: It's the same game every time.

David: Right.

Seth: So that's could be the other way to read it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, does that answer your question?

David: It's helpful. I just, like, and I know there's, and I know everyone listening, I know there's other interpretations.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's not what we're here to talk about, and there's room for how you're-

Seth: Right

David: ... you're reading the Bible. We, we're trying to focus on the main themes. I just wanted to, like, bring it down to earth for just a second in some form-

Seth: Yes

David: ... just to help.

Seth: Yes.

David: Because we know that these, like you said, these are symbols.

Seth: These are symbols.

David: And so if we don't do that work in some way and show how we get there-

Seth: Yes

David: ... I feel like we're not doing the whole thing, so.

Seth: And just to go ahead and, like, I think there's a good reason to think that this is the destruction of the temple.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And it's really goes into the next images in chapter 17 and 18.

David: Okay.

Seth: In chapter 17, we're given this image of a great prostitute.

David: Mm.

Seth: And she is riding the dragon-

David: Epic

Seth: ... drink- [laughs] epic, drinking the blood of the martyrs and getting drunk.

David: More epic.

Seth: Uh, right, and eventually she's destroyed.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's kinda the end of that story.

David: Okay.

Seth: But just live with me with those images for a moment.

David: Sure. Okay.

Seth: Israel is never called Babylon in the Bible.

David: Correct.

Seth: Right?

David: Yes

Seth: Right.

David: I think so.

Seth: Uh-

David: I think she's like, she takes on some characteristics of it

Seth: She takes it

David: There's some like-

Seth: There's some-

David: ... ironic things that tie her-

Seth: There is

David: ... to Babylon, yeah.

Seth: But only Israel is ever described as a prostitute.

David: Yes, 'cause she's God's wife.

Seth: She's God's wife.

David: Who goes astray.

Seth: And she is allying herself with world powers, failing to trust God alone.

David: Oh, no, I see where you're going.

Seth: Oh. [laughs] Failing to trust God alone, and th- but because she's doing that she's called a harlot.

David: That's right.

Seth: She's called-

David: Yes

Seth: ... a prostitute.

David: Jeremiah, Hosea, it happens-

Seth: Right

David: ... again and again.

Seth: And what does this harlot Israel, when it allies itself with other powers, do to the people of God?

David: Kills them.

Seth: Kills them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: She kills the prophets.

David: Right.

Seth: She drinks their blood.

David: Right.

Seth: What was Jesus's critique of Israel-

David: Oh

Seth: ... in Jerusalem?

David: Oh, Israel, the city that kills its prophets.

Seth: The city that kills its prophets. So I think the reason why we should view it this way is because the imagery seems to lend itself for us to understand that this is a, a very graphic picture of the way that-

David: Of Israel at her worst

Seth: ... of Israel at her worst.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And ultimately because it killed Jesus.

David: Right. Oh, absolutely.

Seth: It like-

David: The ultimate martyr

Seth: ... the ultimate martyr, Jesus, colluding with Rome-

David: Right

Seth: ... and increasing-

David: Who killed, who killed Jesus? Was it the prostitute or the beast? Or the dragon?

Seth: Right.

David: Which w- it's both.

Seth: It's both.

David: She was riding on his back drinking his blood.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: And like that's the image-

Seth: Right

David: ... of what Israel has become.

Seth: And so-

David: I've never heard that before.

Seth: Uh, [laughs]

David: Okay, that was really helpful.

Seth: And so what's ha- what's happening in this moment-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that world order that killed Jesus-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that world order built around the temple that was killing, uh, the followers of Jesus in cahoots with Rome-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and Nero will end.

David: Yes.

Seth: It will be destroyed.

David: Right.

Seth: And in its place a new temple is established in heaven, and we join with him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: A new, the world as we know it has ended.

David: Right.

Seth: Something new has begun.

David: Right, and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it.

Seth: That's right.

David: Right.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: All of chapter 18 is celebrating, singing the fact-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... that Babylon, the false people of God, have fallen. The, the bl- the, the Babylon that drinks the blood of the martyrs-

David: Mm

Seth: ... has fallen.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we're invited to the wedding feast.

David: Okay.

Seth: Uh, yeah.

David: That actually, I mean, that makes a ton of sense.

Seth: Yeah, it does.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And now, right, so that's I think the big story of the Book of Revelation, but here's a couple problems.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: Uh, and the story hasn't ended yet.

David: Yeah, we gotta get to the end.

Seth: So-

David: We'll pick back up at the party

Seth: ... Babel, if Babylon is Israel-

David: Okay

Seth: ... and Babylon has been judged, who's still around?

David: Hm.

Seth: Rome. Rome comes and destroys Israel in AD 70.

David: Oh, I understand.

Seth: And Rome still rules the land. There was persecution that happened-

David: Right

Seth: ... under Roman power, right?

David: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Seth: So what happens to Rome?

David: Hm.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So that, that's still the problem that's lingering in the air.

David: Okay, and the, the problem is that, yes, we've destroyed the in cahoots model that's killed the martyrs and killed Jesus and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and is causing a real problem with this conflagration of religion-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and politics-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... with Israel and Rome. But you get rid of the temple, and you disperse all the Jews, Rome's still there.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's still persecuting Christians.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And what does the Book of Revelation have to say about that? Is that the problem?

Seth: I think that's the problem-

David: I understand

Seth: ... as I understand it.

David: Okay.

Seth: And so, okay, and to be very frank, that's the problem that hasn't been solved since the destruction of the temple.

David: Right.

Seth: We-

David: There's always evil empires oppressing Christians and-

Seth: Right

David: ... doing evil in the world.

Seth: Yeah. The, yeah, like, that's exactly right.

David: [laughs]

Seth: So, like, the problem of Rome continues today.

David: Right.

Seth: So I think it's at this point the Book of Revelation starts moving out of referencing AD 70-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and moving into the realities of the future.

David: Right. Yeah, it's also helpful, I think at this point, to be like, i- in the first episode we talked about like is it historical or is it pattern?

Seth: Right.

David: And it's like the reason why we're like, I think there's a bit of both going on here-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is because you're like, "Okay, what about Rome?" You know, "What about communist China?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: "What about ISIS? What about..." You know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, go read Revelation again.

Seth: Right.

David: Go back. The story's the same.

Seth: Yep.

David: God's going to react to evil empires the same way He always does.

Seth: Mm.

David: He's in control, He's gonna vindicate martyrs, and He's going to judge evil.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Okay, but what happens about the next ep- go back.

Seth: Right.

David: Read it again.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This story's going to play out again and again and again until we, as you said-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... get to-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... this next part of the story-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... when the final kingdom comes, and there will not be another evil empire to rise.

Seth: Yes.

David: Take us there.

Seth: Yeah. So when Babylon falls-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... when the false temple falls, when God's people are married-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to Jesus in a unique way that wasn't happening beforehand or it l- had been happening but was inaugurated and made real once that temple-

David: Right

Seth: ... fell, right?

David: Which we talked about in the last episode.

Seth: Which we talked about in the last episode.

David: Yes.

Seth: That happens, but Rome still exists.

David: Yes.

Seth: Powerful empires still exist.

David: Right.

Seth: So what happens to them?

David: Hm.

Seth: And then we get this image of Jesus riding a white horse.

David: Hm.

Seth: Uh, this is in Revelation 19:11. "Then heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And the one sitting on it was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diamonds, and he has a name written-

David: Diadems

Seth: ... diadems?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Are those different than diamonds?

David: Yeah, diadems are like crowns.

Seth: Oh.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I had no idea.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I, well, I-

David: He, uh, he got, he the King of Kings.

Seth: I learned something.

David: Yay.

Seth: He has many crowns, and he has a name written o- uh, that no one knows but himself. He's, and he's clothed in a robe dipped in blood.

David: Hm.

Seth: And interestingly enough, no battle's happened yet, so where-

David: Right, so where'd the blood come from?

Seth: Where'd the blood come from?

David: We'll talk about that probably.

Seth: And the name by which he's called is the Word of God.And the armies of heaven are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. Interesting, we've been told about characters in this story who are clothed in white linen. It's the martyrs.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's those who've already spilled their blood, like Jesus has spilled his blood.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: They are the army.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The army of... is an army of the dead that have been risen.

David: It's like Return of the King.

Seth: It's like Return of the King. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

David: Or Re- or Return of the King is like Revelation.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Return of the King-

David: We know Tolkien. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Uh, from, and then from Jesus's mouth comes a sharp sword, uh, a- to strike down the nations. Specifically nations. Remember-

David: Mm

Seth: ... if Babylon's Israel, this is the nations.

David: Right.

Seth: The problem of the empire-

David: Yep, is finally resolved

Seth: ... uh, now that the- the- the age of the temple has ended.

David: Right.

Seth: And he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tre- and then here, he treads them in the winepress of the fury of his wrath-

David: Ah

Seth: ... of the God, the Almighty. And on his robe and on his thigh-

David: He

Seth: ... he has written the name, King of kings and Lord of lords.

David: The ironic victory of the martyrs.

Seth: That's right.

David: Those they trampled do some trampling.

Seth: That's- that's exactly right.

David: Yeah. Okay.

Seth: And so this is a picture of how God comes and destroys the empires of the world.

David: Mm.

Seth: There will be a day coming when the empires of the world, the power of the state, will be undone by Jesus with a robe dipped in blood-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and a whole bunch of other martyrs clothed in white who have also died for the name of Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And by the simple words coming out of his mouth, they are utterly destroyed.

David: Yeah. I'm like, I've alwa- and- and I don't think there's any problem, unless you can point one out to me that might be helpful [laughs]

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is like, of thinking about this as Jesus' Second Coming or something like that.

Seth: Right. That's right.

David: But you could al- I'm also like, you're training me to read the Book of Revelation.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I'm like, oh, this is also communicating a truth that is happening now, it- that is a major theme in Revelation, is that empires fall because of the word of Jesus and the testimony of the martyrs.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: Is like, you don't even have to go to battle.

Seth: That's right.

David: Right? Like, because we walk around in robes-

Seth: Right

David: ... dipped in blood.

Seth: That's right.

David: Like-

Seth: We conquer by the blood of the lamb and by the word of his testimony.

David: Right.

Seth: And what do we see here? Jesus conquering by the blood on his robe-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... which presumably has to be his own, because there's been nobody killed yet.

David: Right.

Seth: And the word of his testimony.

David: Yes.

Seth: The proclamation of the gospel.

David: Which just makes sense that, okay, how- how are we finally gonna defeat Babylon? Is God gonna get just real bloody and, you know? Like, maybe.

Seth: Right.

David: I mean, I actually-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... don't have a problem with God's wrath. But as we're just following the-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the- the themes of Revelation, it's like, man, it's interesting that there's something about the testimony of the martyrs and the testimony-

Seth: Mm

David: ... of a God who dies-

Seth: Yes

David: ... out of the love of his people, that that's going to undo society in some way. [laughs]

Seth: Yes.

David: Like cataclysmically.

Seth: Yes.

David: [laughs] It's like gonna, the gospel's gonna get such a foothold that it-

Seth: Yes

David: ... undoes society.

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh, I just wanna n- I'm just excited for that day.

Seth: Yeah.

David: [laughs] Anyway.

Seth: It's g- it's gonna be a great day.

David: It's gonna be a good day.

Seth: Uh, but here's a question, David.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: If the powers of false religion are destroyed-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the powers of temple structure-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... if the power of empire is still destroyed-

David: Yep

Seth: ... there was a first beast, right?

David: Satan.

Seth: Satan himself-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is still yet to be destroyed.

David: So yeah, you have the second beast in a sense, if he was the religion one-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... was destroyed. The first beast, being the nations-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... was destroyed, but what about that ancient serpent that-

Seth: That's right

David: ... hurled down from the heavens?

Seth: That's right.

David: Where, what's he doing?

Seth: What's he doing? And well, he is destroyed.

David: [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Uh, he is destroyed. [laughs] Amazing.

Seth: That is... Yeah. There, this is probably, I'm- I'm trying to skip over the most controversial passage in here.

David: Which is fine. We'll just do that.

Seth: But there is, like, a period of time-

David: Yes

Seth: ... where God's people are victorious.

David: Right.

Seth: And ultimately, that victory leads to the destruction of Satan, death, and hell-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and they are thrown into a s- into a f- a pit, never to rise again.

David: That is really interesting too, and it's another

David: kind of reason for maybe to add a couple of percentage points to your, uh, as- your- your, uh, assurance on how much you agree with how you're interpreting right now.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Is, like, it's a, it's a chiasm. The three are a chiasm.

Seth: Okay.

David: Because you have Satan's introduced and thrown down, then it's the first beast, then it's the second beast.

Seth: Yes.

David: And then it's Babylon as Israel is destroyed-

Seth: Yep, the second beast

David: ... which was, you said the second beast.

Seth: That-

David: And then it's-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... the, the first beast-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... which is, which is the, the nations are destroyed, and then it's Satan.

Seth: That's right. That's exactly right.

David: And so, which is how Hebrews write.

Seth: The end of Revelation is all the enemies of God destroyed, false religion, corrupt empire, and that a- that ancient animating cosmic force of evil trying to devour the people-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of God all destroyed-

David: Yes

Seth: ... by the end of the book of Revelation.

David: Well, that leaves us with one more problem, Seth.

Seth: What's the one, what-

David: Let me, let me ask you this

Seth: ... yeah.

David: If the religion has been, you know, the religious order has been destroyed-

Seth: Sure

David: ... if the national kingdom order has been destroyed, and if the god and prince of this world has been destroyed, what's on the earth now?

Seth: It's just-

David: Nothing. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: What happens next?

Seth: N- a new heavens and a new earth come.

David: Yeah.

Seth: A new heaven and a new earth come to occupy what's left of the earth-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to, to take over-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the purified land.

David: I think we've avoided a lot of controversy. [laughs]

Seth: I hope so. [laughs] Or there's-

David: Or we're just trying to be helpful

Seth: ... or there's gonna be so- uh, the, I will have stepped in it and say, "Oh, you g-

David: Yeah, we probably have. But this is i- this is a controversy worth having, and I don't think it's as controversial as it used to be.

Seth: Okay.

David: Is the, uh, is just what is heaven?

Seth: Okay.

David: Right? 'Cause I think for a lot of people, there's this view of heaven as a place that we will go up in the sky.

Seth: When, when we die. Yeah.

David: Right. And maybe there's, like, an intermediate thing there. May- you know, the, the, the martyrs-

Seth: It seems to be the case that the martyrs are-

David: Are up there, yep, sure

Seth: ... ruling with Jesus right now in some way

David: Fine. At some point, though, when the new heavens and new earth are created, there is this Earth-like, but heavenly-like new Eden garden place where we will walk around in resurrected bodies-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and enjoy the best parts of life. You know, I, I often hear like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a big critique of, like, Christianity is like, "I don't wanna live playing a harp up on a cloud forever."

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: It's like, dude, that is not the vision of heaven that the Bible presents.

Seth: No.

David: It's like we're talking about a perfect Earth-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that God lives on, and we live on in perfect bodies-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... where we get to do the coolest stuff ever. I remember when you got back from your vacation in Hawaii.

Seth: Yes.

David: And, like, outside your, your, like, uh, bungalow or [laughs] whatever-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... was, like, you said there's like 60 different fruit trees.

Seth: Yeah, there's cherries and avocados and mangoes, and it was awesome. [laughs]

David: It was like, I just felt like that's like the Garden of Eden.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: It was just like this perfect place. And so, uh, I just wanted to, like, stop and just make sure as we talk about the end of the story here-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that people aren't casting this vision up into the clouds.

Seth: No, this is here and now.

David: This is h- it's heaven and Earth coming-

Seth: Right

David: ... together.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we get to be in it like Adam and Eve in the garden, but even better.

Seth: And if you're paying attention to Revelation, Revelation's been doing that for you the whole time.

David: Mm.

Seth: The cosmic force of the heavens have been thrown down to the Earth-

David: Mm

Seth: ... through the whole book.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Where's Satan? On the Earth. Where are the bowls happening? On the Earth.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, all this, the cosmic force of the heavens have been being sucked down to the Earth time and time again, generally to destroy it, to purify it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But now something's coming down out of the heavens to make it new. Yeah. Behold. So the scroll was opened.

David: Oh. Oh, the scroll. Oh my God. [laughs] The scroll. The interludes are throwing me.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Okay.

Seth: The scroll was opened.

David: The scroll was opened.

Seth: The trumpet sounded.

David: And, and it was like, I was like, "Shut up, everybody, we're gonna listen, we're gonna listen to the scroll." Trumpets blow.

Seth: Yes.

David: The seventh trumpet. It's like, "Here we go. We're gonna hear it. Oh, no, here's the Ark of the Covenant. Okay."

Seth: There's one big final battle against evil to be done.

David: Yep.

Seth: The blood of those who have died for Christ have been poured out, and not just false religion, but empire and Satan itself-

David: Yep

Seth: ... are destroyed in the aftermath. So finally-

David: And then, well, hold on, and then the, the lamb that sits on the throne, that throne comes down to Earth.

Seth: Yep. Yep, that's right.

David: And he's holding the scroll.

Seth: Yes, holding the scroll.

David: And what does he say? [laughs]

Seth: "And he who is seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.'"

David: Hallelujah.

Seth: "It is done. I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. And to the thirsty, I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. And the one who conquers will have this heritage. I will be his God, and he will be my son."

David: Mm.

Seth: And remember, what did Moses say when he was sprinkling the blood of the bulls on-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the new Israel? He said, "I will be your God."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "You will be our God, and we will be His people."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Same thing's happening right here.

David: And that's the end of the story.

Seth: I mean, kind of.

David: Kind of.

Seth: Uh, but, yes, l- heaven comes down.

David: Heaven comes to Earth.

Seth: The scroll is read.

David: Yeah.

Seth: God's forever kingdom is established.

David: Mm.

Seth: And then a description of that kingdom comes in a second.

David: Yeah. Okay. Do we need to talk about that?

Seth: We should talk about it-

David: Okay

Seth: ... because we've kinda got to the end of, like, the, the narrative story.

David: Yep.

Seth: But what about the people suffering?

David: [laughs] Oh, yeah.

Seth: This was written for them.

David: Right.

Seth: How are they transformed in all this? Okay, you told me about the cosmic nature-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of my suffering.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You've told me a little bit about what's gonna happen in the future. Satan's gonna come crashing down and be locked up forever. Awesome. What does that make me now?

David: Mm.

Seth: What will that make me then?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right? Like that-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... question is still live and in the air.

David: Okay.

Seth: Uh-

David: So how does he answer those sufferers' questions?

Seth: He says their answer is given in a new Jerusalem.

David: Mm.

Seth: One of the same angels that poured out one of the bowls, um, talks to John, and he says, "Come, I'm gonna show you the bride, the wife of the lamb."

David: Mm.

Seth: "And he carried, uh, John away in the spirit to a high mountain, and he shows him the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. And it has the glory of God, so the g- God's bride looks like God."

David: Mm.

Seth: "Its radiance like a most rare jewel, like jasper," which is one of the same precious metals that was described as God in His throne room-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... back in chapter four.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, clear as crystal. It had a great high wall with 12 gates. Uh, and on the gates, the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed, on the east three greats, on the north and the south and the west, three gates. And the wall of the city had 12 foundations, and on them were the 12 names of the apostles [laughs] of the lamb. And then the one spoke with me. He had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and its walls. And he measured the city as a cube.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Uh, 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia. So you can get lost in the numbers, and you can get lost in the weeds, but the big point here is John's being given a vision of God's people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The New Jerusalem, God's bride, the church, and this is what she will look, one day look like in glory.

David: Mm.

Seth: She'll look like this perfect cube. [laughs]

David: Is that good news?

Seth: It's such good news.

David: Why? [laughs]

Seth: Because the only other structure that is measured and is a cube is the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle-

David: Ah

Seth: ... and in the temple.

David: Yes.

Seth: The one other place in the Old Testament that's a perfect cube that's measured is the central place of God's power and authority and presence.

David: Right, where only one high priest once a year was-

Seth: Right

David: ... able to go.

Seth: And so who now embodies the presence of God? God's people.

David: All, all His people.

Seth: All His people.

David: Mm.

Seth: We are the burning center of His activity-

David: Mm

Seth: ... in the new heavens and the new Earth. [laughs]

David: We... Hold on.

Seth: Uh-

David: We are the burning center-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... of His activity.

Seth: Uh-

David: I'm gonna, I'm gonna tattoo that somewhere.

Seth: [laughs]

David: That's too good. Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. And we're, and we're told in this new Jerusalem that there is no temple.

David: Right.

Seth: Because we are the temple-

David: Yes

Seth: ... with Jesus.

David: Right.

Seth: We are His body, the temple.Uh, there's also no light and no sea and a whole bunch of other details-

David: Because-

Seth: ... but like-

David: ... Jesus is our light-

Seth: G- Jesus is our-

David: ... and all that awesome stuff

Seth: ... yeah, yeah. Uh-

David: This is a great place to just come meditate.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, you wanna m- meditate about stars for a second?

David: Sure.

Seth: So-

David: If I can have an... I feel like I don't... I, I don't really have another option.

Seth: Um, [laughs] let's land the plane about us being this perfect cube for a second.

David: Yeah, okay.

Seth: It's good news that

Seth: we're the cube. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Can't get over that.

Seth: We are the burning center-

David: Of God's activity

Seth: ... of God's activity in the world.

David: Yep.

Seth: In, in the new heavens and the new Earth, this is who will, we will be in perfection.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We will rule with God like Adam and Eve did, extending the boundaries of God's world and maybe even the cosmos.

David: Right.

Seth: Who knows? Maybe-

David: In-

Seth: ... we'll be terraforming planets.

David: Sure.

Seth: Let's-

David: But in, but in, we'll do so in perfect harmony and proximity-

Seth: Yes

David: ... with God's glory.

Seth: And all that creative energy that every human ever feels to do something significant-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... will be accomplished.

David: Right.

Seth: We'll be our true human selves-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... we were meant to be with all the power and capacity to do so.

David: Right. I mean, the Holy of Holies, the temple itself, was a huge act of creativity.

Seth: That's right.

David: And the people who made it were filled with the Holy Spirit and great skill and craftsmanship-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to accomplish, like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... yeah, totally.

Seth: So that will be the, our job in the world-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is to express our creativity.

David: Cosmic gardeners.

Seth: Yes. So fun.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But this isn't just a picture of who we will be then. It's actually a picture of how God sees us right now.

David: Mm.

Seth: What does Paul say in Ephesians?

David: Right.

Seth: H- the church has been made spotless-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... by the blood of Jesus. This is a picture of who we are right now-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and we have not yet been unveiled.

David: So okay.

Seth: Right.

David: Hold on.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Right there, y- I feel like you're, our finger's, like, on the pulse-

Seth: Uh

David: ... of what's the best news here, is you're like, "Look at this. Look at what will be. Look at this, look at this picture. We're, we're going to be the burning center of God's creative action."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Amazing. Let me take the veil off, though, 'cause that's what we said at the very beginning-

Seth: Right

David: ... was Revelation is an unveiling.

Seth: Yeah, an apocalypse.

David: It-

Seth: That's what apocalypse does

David: ... it's an apocalypse. It's an, it's an un-hiding. [laughs] There's something hidden and I wanna show it to you. And the, the big open-the-curtain moment is you are the center of God's creative activity in the world right now.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You are where His Holy Spirit dwells.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You are on thrones now. You are His holy bride now.

Seth: As you sacrifice-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... people are transformed.

David: Totally.

Seth: Right, yeah.

David: You can be a priest in a kingdom in this world right now.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And he's like, "You think you're suffering, and that that might be pointless, but let me show you everything that that means. You are the cube." [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, you are the cube. [laughs]

David: [laughs] That's awesome.

Seth: Okay.

David: How does, how does the very end of the book come together?

Seth: There is a final image of a river of life-

David: Mm

Seth: ... um, that comes out from the throne of God and waters the whole world. And I think this is just an image of the world as it should be.

David: Mm.

Seth: From God's presence, life trickles out of the whole world-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and we'll experience it.

David: Kind of an opposite of the curse.

Seth: Opposite of the curse.

David: Out of the garden came a-

Seth: And-

David: ... edict of God that cursed-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the whole world, and now there's a river of life-giving activity that waters the whole world.

Seth: Yeah. This river of life heals the nations.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The objects of God's-

David: Mm

Seth: ... wrath throughout it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You know, the, members of those nations are included in this kingdom.

David: Every tribe, every nation-

Seth: Every, yeah, yeah

David: ... every language.

Seth: And we'll see His face and the, the-

David: Wait, hold on.

Seth: [laughs]

David: We can't just... I at least have to freak out even if I don't know enough yet.

Seth: Uh... [laughs]

David: We can't just skim past the coolest thing ever.

Seth: Yes. Uh-

David: We will see His face.

Seth: W-

David: The one thing that you, you can't look at.

Seth: That's right.

David: Moses w- wanted to look at it, and it said-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... kill him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: There will be a time when we w- we, we will be able to behold what people have called the beatific vision of God's-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... face and not only not die, it will be what makes us thrive.

Seth: Yes.

David: Oh my gosh.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Really.

Seth: Uh, God's names will be on our forehead, so that's exciting. [laughs] Um, that d-

David: Too much

Seth: ... that, yeah, there's a lot going on h- this is an image of us being priests again.

David: Mm.

Seth: Remember the priests.

David: Oh, right, the phylacteries.

Seth: The phylacteries. So, so we... And what do priests do? They are the burning center of God's action in the world.

David: Yes, right.

Seth: They're, they're do- doing the work of atonement and sacrifice, and that's-

David: Right

Seth: ... what Adam and Eve were in the Garden. They're-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... tending and keeping the-

David: But it won't be a covenant that's on their head anymore saying like, "If you do these things, then you'll be my people."

Seth: It-

David: He's just gonna stamp Yahweh's on our head.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You belong to me now.

Seth: And what I do is what you do.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, it's gonna be awesome.

David: It will resound.

Seth: Uh, there'll be no more, uh, night anymore.

David: Mm-mm.

Seth: No more sun anymore. Oh, we could nerd out about stars for a second-

David: [laughs] Oh, yeah

Seth: ... before we get to the end.

David: Go for it.

Seth: So the idea that there'll be no sun or moon or stars-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in heaven-

David: Oh, 'cause didn't they think those were, like, the heavenly beings? Was that the idea?

Seth: Well-

David: Or was it something different?

Seth: ... yes and no.

David: Okay.

Seth: So b-

David: Christine's over here freaking out

Seth: ... um, [laughs] uh, so back in Genesis, right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: You have stars that are created.

David: Yes. I remember that.

Seth: Right?

David: [laughs]

Seth: And do you remember the strange phrasing with which they're described in the Book of Genesis?

David: No.

Seth: It says this, "Let there be light in the expanse of the heavens to separate, uh, the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens and give light upon the earth." And other translations will talk about the stars governing time-

David: Right

Seth: ... and seasons.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And this is where day and night come in.

David: Yes.

Seth: Okay. So there's this idea that stars govern time-

David: Okay

Seth: ... or govern seasons.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's just

Seth: astronomically true. When certain constellations are in the sky-

David: It's that season

Seth: ... it's that season.

David: Sure.

Seth: They govern-

David: Right

Seth: ... the seasons of the earth.

David: You can't have that season without those constellations. They're mapped onto each other.

Seth: That's right. The sun rules the day.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When the sun's up

David: It's daytime.

Seth: It's daytime, and it, it determines-

David: That it is daytime

Seth: ... that it is daytime.

David: Right.

Seth: The moon is up, it determines that it's nighttime.

David: That's right, 'cause in that, you know, ancient Near Eastern cosmology, it's like you didn't know about the Earth turning on an axis.

Seth: Right.

David: It's like the sun c- it's like, "It's day now 'cause the sun is here."

Seth: Yes.

David: But then oh, the night takes over and the stars are governing what's happening now.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay, I understand.

Seth: And then throughout the Bible, though, kings are often described as stars-

David: Yes

Seth: ... because they li-

David: I mean, Mufasa did that, too [laughs]

Seth: Muf- Mufasa did that, too.

David: [laughs]

Seth: But because, particularly because they determine seasons.

David: Okay.

Seth: Because you name history after particular leaders. This was the Roman Empire.

David: Mm.

Seth: The star of Rome determines the time for us.

David: I see.

Seth: We measure history by, we determine times-

David: Right

Seth: ... and seasons by the leaders-

David: Oh, sure

Seth: ... and empires are in power.

David: Okay, it's like when you're reading, uh, like, First and Second Kings or Chronicles, and you're like, "During the reign of King whatever"

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's a, that's a light in the sky that determines the season for that time.

David: Okay. All right.

Seth: Right? Okay.

David: Okay.

Seth: So throughout the whole Bible, this is the way that the imagery of stars are used, that they set and determine seasons of life on Earth.

David: Okay, yes.

Seth: For one-

David: I, I'm with you.

Seth: Right?

David: Yep.

Seth: So I'm, I'm nerding out on this because [laughs] I thought this was so fascinating.

David: I'm just read- I'm ready for the shoe to drop.

Seth: Interestingly, throughout Revelation, over and over again, stars fall from the sky.

David: Yeah, right.

Seth: The things that ordain the way we s- name our world and our history fall from the sky.

David: And govern ourselves.

Seth: Yeah, like, well, it's like Rome no longer defines the times.

David: Oh.

Seth: The, America no longer defines the times.

David: Mm-hmm. Right.

Seth: Post-modernism no longer defines the times.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: These stars fall throughout, right?

David: Yeah. The, the, the, the Medieval Ages, the Enlightenment.

Seth: Yeah, all these ways we-

David: Okay, yeah

Seth: ... depict seasons-

David: Okay

Seth: ... fall.

David: Okay.

Seth: So when we get to the new heavens and the new Earth and there are no lights-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... what does that mean? Only God determines the time. He is the ultimate defining factor-

David: Mm

Seth: ... for all of reality. There is no more conditionality to what happens on the Earth. There are no more seasons-

David: Seasons

Seth: ... in Him. There's no more rise and fall of one po- empire or another.

David: Right.

Seth: There is only one governor.

David: The, the, the wheel of time doesn't just turn over-

Seth: Right

David: ... bringing up new horrors every time it spins.

Seth: Right, right. There is only light.

David: Oh, gosh.

Seth: Isn't that cool?

David: That's really good.

Seth: Isn't that cool? [laughs]

David: Yeah, that's really good news.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Yeah. Oh, man.

Seth: Uh.

David: Making all things new.

Seth: Making all things new, and then, I mean, let's just e- land-

David: We, we gotta land

Seth: ... land the plane. Amen, come Lord Jesus. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: Um, there's a ending call to John to record the words of these prophecies-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... by the angel, and he does so, and then we have this command, this, this last line from Jesus in, uh, in verse 12, "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, my, I'm avenging with me to repay each one for what he's done. I'm the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

David: Mm.

Seth: And he continues, but this is the ending of the story, that God is coming soon. This is-

David: Yeah, that's the last thing He says.

Seth: Yeah, sure.

David: "Surely, I am coming soon."

Seth: That's right. "Amen, come Lord Jesus"

David: Amen, come Lord Jesus.

Seth: Is, is how John responds to that, and that's, that's the end of the Book-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of Revelation. There's more we could say about it.

David: Oh, ab-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... unendingly more.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The book starts-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... with, here is an unveiling of some things that are about to happen, right?

Seth: Yes.

David: That are happening soon.

Seth: Yes.

David: And then our response to this book is, yes, let it come soon.

Seth: Yes.

David: Even if that means suffering.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Even if that means dying.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Even if that means spilling our blood.

Seth: Yeah.

David: If it means ushering in this kingdom, oh, it's so worth it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Come, Lord Jesus. [laughs]

Seth: Come, Lord Jesus.

David: That's good. Well, we obviously didn't turn over every stone.

Seth: Nope.

David: Not even close.

Seth: We, we avoided many.

David: Yep, but hopefully this has given everybody, it's definitely given me better parameters and tools to use as I work this book, so thank you, Seth, for all of that. And thank all of you for listening and following along-

Seth: Yes

David: ... uh, on this journey. It's been really, really fun. Uh, go read Revelation if you haven't been already.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Dive in, savor it, and man, pray the prayer of John.

Seth: Yes.

David: Come, Lord Jesus.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Hopefully in the next couple weeks we'll be in the book of Chronicles.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So if you got excited about Revelation, you should be totally excited for Chronicles.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Um, I'm excited about that.

David: Yeah, it's gonna be awesome.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well, thank you all for joining us, and we will see you next time. [outro music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]

Related Resources

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The Story of Revelation: How God's Kingdom Conquers Through Suffering and Brings All Things New

Show Notes

Jesus the Priest Tending His Churches in Danger

The Scroll, the Seals, and the Necessity of Suffering

Prophetic Interludes and the Church's Mission During Persecution

Identifying the Enemy: The Dragon, the Beasts, and Babylon

The Fall of Babylon and the Victory of the Lamb

The New Jerusalem and the Unveiling of Who We Already Are

Related Resources

Introduction to Revelation

View our devotional on Revelation 1

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