David: [upbeat music] There's nothing mystical about it, is what I, I just wanna say.
Seth: No.
David: This is Revelation. It's making something obvious, and so if it's hard, and it's mystical, something's wrong.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us. We are starting the book of, dun, dun, dun, Revelation [chuckles] today-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and I am so excited about that. Um, it's such a famous book, such a, a book with so many different opinions.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But a really gorgeous, hope-filled, good news-filled book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Seth, how are you feeling?
Seth: I feel like Revelation is an intense book.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's an intense book, not only because I feel like I had intense opinions at, of it growing up-
David: Oh, sure
Seth: ... and experienced it intensely, but also just the images of, like, beasts and meteors, and seas be- uh, disappearing and evaporating, and the sun falling, like, out of the sky.
David: Yeah.
Seth: These are intense images. [chuckles]
David: Right.
Seth: And a lot of times, they, they feel overwhelming.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so I kinda like started the study process for this feeling the weight of that, and also just the weight of my own experience with the Book of Revelation and a lot of our audience's views, uh, presumably, of the Book of Revelation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... just feeling, "Okay, how can we do something helpful-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... in a book that has, so much ink has been spilled, and so many thoughts have been s- had about the book?"
David: Yeah, that's true.
Seth: So I'm feeling hopeful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in my ability to be helpful. [laughs]
David: Yeah. I'm excited, I think, to... I've just, you know, you and, you and, um, our other staff writer, Christine, have really done the bulk of the research for this, and but just hearing y'all's conversations, you know, I'm just- I've been so excited to have this talk with you because of how often you guys are just spilling good news, instead of like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... conspiracy theories [laughing] or something.
Seth: [laughing]
David: And it's just like, uh, it's just been really cool. So we're gonna, we're gonna have a talk today about what is the Book of Revelation, how to understand it, and hopefully by the end of it, you will even understand how to comprehend and interpret the number 666.
Seth: That would be a great-
David: That's a good end-
Seth: ... ending-
David: End goal for us
Seth: ... landing point, [chuckles] uh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for this podcast.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah, we wanted to kinda stop and do a whole episode of just what's on the line, like, what's the category of Revelation? How do we understand it? What's the genre? When was it written? Just to give us... put our heads on straight as-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we get lost in the weeds of numbers and images-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and things like that.
David: Okay. So, I mean, this might be a really big question, or it could be maybe... hopefully, you've thought about this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if you were gonna have just a, "Let's start at the beginning-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... conversation with somebody about Revelation," how do you even breach the topic? Like, what's a good place for us to begin on how to understand this book?
Seth: I mean, nor- I mean, like, on a very practical level, I'd be like, "Well, what's your experience been with Revelation in the past?"
David: Oh, sure. [laughing]
Seth: Yeah, [laughing] that's actually good.
David: You can tell you used to be a pastor. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: That's a very pastoral response.
Seth: Yeah, 'cause my experience, um, I think this is similar to yours, was like, I read all the Left Behind books.
David: Oh, I absolutely did. I loved them.
Seth: And I probably had-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... a problem, like, differentiating the Left Behind series from actual scripture [chuckles].
David: Scripture.
Seth: [chuckles] And so I was like, "No, there's gonna be a new world order, and somewhere in the Carpathian Mountains, someone's gonna rise up-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and take over the world."
David: Yes.
Seth: "And he's gonna be c- crazy." [chuckles]
David: Right. But, um, I, I don't think that's exactly what Revelation's talking about.
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, I, I don't agree with that, necessarily.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, I mean, I don't... Left Behind are doing something good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're representing a well-respected scholarly tradition.
David: That's right.
Seth: But I... at the end of the day, we probably will land somewhere different.
David: Which is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... will be interesting, regardless of where you fall on the spectrum.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So but yeah, I definitely was into the Left Behind. I mean, I remember, like, going to a Christian bookstore to get it, like, when, like, volume four-
Seth: Yes
David: ... came out, and I was like, "It's on the shelf!"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, oh, my gosh, I loved them.
Seth: Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, like, it, those books, like, sparked in me a deep desire to use my imagination when it came to scripture.
David: Right.
Seth: And it gave me a deep desire to take the words of s- scripture seriously.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think they did it in this really, like, an apocalyptic way, which is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Revelation is an apocalypse, you know, but Revelation means apocalypse. And so, like, it gave me... it just was important for me, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... formative for me, even if I don't necessarily agree with those conclusions anymore.
David: Totally.
Seth: Uh-
David: I completely agree. And I think what it did to me, though, you know, and probably-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what it did to a lot of people, and maybe... I don't wanna use Left Behind as the scapegoat.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: People have read Revelation this way for a long time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But what I think the expectations I had coming into this book, you know, before studying it really deeply in Christian higher education [chuckles] was, like, that it's all these very, very opaque, hard-to-understand, like, omega codes that you have to crack in order to understand what's going to happen r- like, when Jesus comes back at the end of time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's, like, all future. It's n- like,
Seth: Right
David: ... it's all what's coming.
Seth: Yeah. It's all fairly literal-
David: It's... yes, and it-
Seth: But it's also-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... bizarre.
David: Right, it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Okay, are the locusts real locusts? Are they-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... helicopters? Are they... "
Seth: Right.
David: "What is it?" And, uh, and so that's, that was my understanding of Revelation, and then I understood- then I came to find out that there's, oh, there's a whole giant-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... other way of reading [chuckles] this book-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that, you know, scholars, uh, talk about.
Seth: And I think, I was talking with, uh, one of the pastors at our church about Revelation, and he was saying to me, it's like, it seems like there's a whole bunch of people, in our generation at least, who read the Left Behind series and had some sort of experience with it, but largely felt fairly, like, overwhelmed, burdened, and fearful by the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the, what that presented.
David: Terrifying, yeah.
Seth: And so a lot of churches have not talked about Revelation in a long time.
David: Mm.
Seth: But if you look through church history, Revelation was, like, a common diet-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for the people of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, because it represented a real hope when, uh, you are under threat.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the, the picture Revelation pai- paints is pretty stark, a world empire bent on destroying Christians.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that's been the experience of a lot of Christians for most of church history.
David: Right.
Seth: And so this book has been profoundly used throughout, like, it's been used consistently-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... throughout church history. We've had a weird experience in America, where we think we've built a government system that protects us from persecution-
David: Mm
Seth: ... right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we have this really scary vision of it. Uh, but it also doesn't really fit necessarily with our experience every- in everyday life-
David: Mm
Seth: ... here in the States, and so we kind of put it to the side and haven't ta- taken it back up in, like, church consciousness for a while.
David: Right. Another, another way to talk about that, like, in maybe the protected Western Church, Revelation has to... Sometimes we have to feel like it has to be read a different way because the, the way of reading it as those who are being persecuted, those under the onslaught of the beast, doesn't make apparent sense to us right away.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so like, maybe it's about something else.
Seth: And so it feels like fear-mongering.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? It's like, it's just, it's just something... Yeah, that's right.
David: Yeah. Okay, well, thanks, Pastor Seth, for [chuckles] checking in on-
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... me and how I u- used to feel about Revelation. What's the next step?
Seth: Well, I would honestly just read the first three verses-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of the Book of Revelation, because Revelation thankfully tells us exactly what it is in the first three verses.
David: Hallelujah.
Seth: Uh, so the the very, the very opening verse says, "The revelation of Jesus Christ." So that word of revelation is the word apocalypse.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, "The apocalypse of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And depending on your translation, the next phrase is, "He made it known," or, "He signified this by sending his angel to his servant, John, who bore witness to the Word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ and all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and keep what is written, for the time is near."
David: Okay.
Seth: So we kind of have four pieces of information there.
David: Yeah. Let's talk about it.
Seth: We've got, uh, this is an apocalypse.
David: Okay.
Seth: This is happening soon.
David: Okay.
Seth: This is a signifying document. Um, so that phrase, "made it known," is the word... It, it signifies. It was signified to John. That's a really loaded biblical word.
David: Okay.
Seth: The word signified, and it is also a prophecy.
David: Okay.
Seth: So those are the four things that Revelation tells us upfront. Before you read it, you should know this is an apocalypse. I'm talking about something that's happening soon. It is a symbolic document. It signifies things-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and, uh, it's a prophecy.
David: All right.
Seth: So we should talk about those four categories. [chuckles]
David: We, we definitely should. Okay. Apocalypse.
Seth: Apocalypse.
David: Talk to me about that word, because when... I think the, I think the common use of that word means end of the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: That's right.
David: Is that what it means?
Seth: It means revelation.
David: Right. [chuckles]
Seth: It means unveiling. It means revealing.
David: Yeah, I, I just looked it up in my, like, uh, Greek Bible dictionary here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it, like, it's just like, like, taking the cover off.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, something was covered and veiled, and you-
Seth: You apocalypse it.
David: You apocalypse it.
Seth: Right.
David: You un-hide it.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we are familiar with that term from, like, apocalyptic movies, apoc- apocalyptic literature, and you can think... Those are fair representations of what an apocalypse is supposed to invoke. When the zombie apocalypse comes, it reveals who we really are down. Are we really just animals?
David: Oh.
Seth: Are we just monsters haunted by a disease, trying to survive?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, uh, when global warming takes over and it's the day after tomorrow, isn't this the unveiling of our human pride?
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, like, uh, this is what our apocalyptic genres still do today.
David: I have never thought about it like that. [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: I just thought it was like, "Look at all the crazy special effects!" [chuckles]
Seth: Right, but it's normally an unveiling of some- a problem within humanity.
David: I really need to think deeper when I'm watching disaster movies. [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: Seth's over here analyzing the human psyche. I'm like, "Whoa, that zombie almost bit that girl! That's an amazing special effect." [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: That's actually really helpful. Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's a book... Revelation is a book that reveals something?
Seth: It reveals something.
David: It-
Seth: Yes
David: ... there's something hidden, and it-
Seth: Yes
David: ... takes the, the, the hiding thing away-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so we can see it as it truly is.
Seth: And just to keep with our apocalyptic movie genre, it like... It also is an unveiling of the world as we know it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And normally, the description of the end of the world as we know it, as well, right? Revel- like, an apocalypse is the ending of a world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, as, as it once was conceived, and it's the survivors trying to figure out a new world order. And so there is a sense that within at least the Book of Revelation, perhaps not apocalyptic literature as John understood it, 'cause that's another category here-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is that's, uh, that's something to be preserved. Like, there is, within the apocalyptic imagination, an ending of one world order and the beginning of a new.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's the unveiling of things as they are now, as we transition into a new world order.
David: Okay.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, yeah, I think so, that, uh, end of the world doesn't necessarily have to mean everyone's dead-
Seth: That's right
David: ... or the planet blows up.
Seth: That's right.
David: Or everything's flooded. It could mean a transfer of power.... the world as we know it has changed-
Seth: That's right.
David: uh, and China takes over America.
Seth: That's right!
David: That would be an apocalyptic event for America-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... if China took over.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And in, and in, and like, and just to stay with the movies, like, we reveal human pride-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that caused the zombie apocalypse.
David: Right.
Seth: And something new has taken its place.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right? And that's-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's what an apocalypse does.
David: I see.
Seth: What takes the place of the old word order, once it has been revealed for what it truly is.
David: Okay.
Seth: And I think that's what Revelation is doing in many ways.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But to move away from, like, our understanding of the word apocalypse-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and what it is revealing, there's a whole category of ancient literature called apocalyptic literature-
David: Right
Seth: ... that was really common in the day that, uh, John was writing.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: In a similar way that apocalyptic movies are s-
David: Right
Seth: ... familiar to us.
David: Yep. There's a genre.
Seth: There's a genre.
David: Yeah, when you-
Seth: Like-
David: ... when you go see an apocalyptic movie, something bad's gonna happen.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah, and it's like, if you're, if you're like, "This is an apocalyptic movie," you go to it, and it's like a romantic comedy, you're like, "This was the wrong genre."
Seth: Right.
David: There were expectations-
Seth: That's right
David: ... inside of [chuckles] that genre.
Seth: So talk to me a little bit, 'cause you- I know you- this is your area of expertise for the moment. [laughing] Uh, it's like, what- when we- when a first-century reader-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... would've read the word apocalypse, what would they have been expecting, rather than what we expect when we hear the word apocalypse?
David: Yeah, sure. Uh, I, I found this one definition to be really helpful. Uh, I found it in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. So there was this, uh, group of scholars headed up by this other theologian named J.J. Collins, and they did this deep study of all apocalyptic literature, some of which is in, like, pottery fragments, but some of which are, like, you know-
Seth: Books, scrolls
David: ... full scrolls.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, from 250 BC to 250 AD-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which was the heyday of this kind of literature. This 500-year period where the bulk of apocalyptic literature-
Seth: I can't imagine any type of literature [chuckles] surviving for 500 years.
David: Oh, it's so dr-
Seth: You know?
David: I mean, but-
Seth: Isn't that crazy?
David: I mean, this is some... I mean-
Seth: I mean, this, this
David: ... this is some really good, uh-
Seth: Yes.
David: But I mean, even as a genre, though, I mean, is like, if you're gonna survive a, a genre-
Seth: Right
David: ... let this one survive-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause it's fun.
Seth: This is super fun.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: But anyway, so they, they compiled this definition for an apocalypse, okay? So apocalypse is a genre of revelatory literature with a narrative framework.
Seth: Okay.
David: So I'll stop there, 'cause I think those two are really helpful. So it's revelatory. We've talked about that. It's-
Seth: Reveals something
David: ... it reveals something.
Seth: Hiding s- something that was hidden is now being revealed.
David: Yep, but it's not like, let me... It's not like an epistle, where it's, "Hey, you think it's this, but it's actually this." It's built on a narrative framework. It's gonna tell you a story.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so-
Seth: That's helpful
David: ... you, if, if, if you find yourself interpreting a piece of apocalypse, and you aren't following any kind of narrative-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you're missing something.
Seth: The, another way to say that is, like, there's a reason why in the Book of Revelation, seven bowls are- follow seven trumpets.
David: Right.
Seth: And those details are connected to one another. They're not just random metaphors used by the author.
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yep, so it's following a narrative framework. So it's a revelatory literature inside a narrative framework in which a revelation, so, you know, some kind of revealing, is mediated by an otherworldly being and a human recipient.
Seth: Okay.
David: So you've got this big amount of revelation that has to happen, and there's a mediation that occurs.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's between a human recipient and some kind of divine being.
Seth: And in, throughout the Book of Revelation, that's exactly what happens. There's something that happens in the heavens, an angel delivers that message to John-
David: Right
Seth: ... John is, is then recording it for us.
David: And the revealer is Jesus, the Alpha and the Omega.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's the one doing the ultimate revealing. Uh, and what they, what they reveal, they disclose a transcendent reality. "So you guys are living in this one world order, but I'm seeing something different." There's a transcendent reality. There's something bigger going on.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it has two sides to it. It's both temporal, and it's also supernatural. So it's temporal in that it talks about eschatological salvation for the people who are living on the Earth.
Seth: Meaning, like, real time, people right now alive-
David: Need saving
Seth: ... need saving.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so it's like, like, like what you said-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's, it's coming soon.
Seth: It's coming soon. Yes, yes, yes.
David: You need salvation, and you're stuck in a world order. There are things happening. You need some kind of transcendent revelation to show you that everything's gonna be okay.
Seth: It's kind of almost like when he, uh, when John says, "This is a revelation of Jesus Christ that must soon take place." You're like, "Yeah, yeah, we know that."
David: Right.
Seth: People would be like, "Of course, it is."
David: Of course, it is. That's what the genre does.
Seth: I understand.
David: Exactly. So it's like, good, it's a message of salvation-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to people in need. [chuckles]
Seth: Got it.
David: That's what it is. Uh, but it's also, um, like supernatural, or like, it's not just spatial in the temporal world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's also supernatural in that it, it, it always involves, this genre always involves a seeing or an encounter of a transcendent world.
Seth: Right.
David: So you're not just... It's not just like, "Oh, hey, you see that problem here on Earth?
Seth: Mm.
David: Let me show you what's really going on, you're okay."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's gonna happen because the, the mediation and the revelation is happening inside of a-
Seth: Yes
David: ... transcendent spiritual world, and you're gonna get a glimpse into that world. So what, what's fascinating, it just kind of sounds like I'm breaking down the elements of Revelation. [chuckles]
Seth: Right.
David: But I'm not. I'm actually describing a whole genre of which all this 500 years of literature-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that this team-
Seth: Right
David: ... of scholars researched, they all have these characteristics.
Seth: Got it.
David: So he's using-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... all of these standard, I don't wanna call them tropes, but that's what they are.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You know, they're just-
Seth: He's, he's operating within the genre.
David: Right. If you had a romantic comedy without a meet cute, you'd be breaking the genre.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so-
Seth: And if you are breaking the genre, it may be intentional.
David: Intentionally.
Seth: Right.
David: Right, exactly. You're subverting it. But the, but the Book of Revelation accords very well with this-... body of literature that existed for 500 years.
Seth: So based off this conversation off apocalyptic literature, if you're opening up this book, and you're reading it, what you should expect then is an unveiling of the world as it is in the beginning of a new world order-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in conversation with spiritual realities behind current physical realities as it relates to me, a man who needs saving. [chuckles]
David: That's right, and, and, and like the one thing I wanna highlight i- i- which was the most surprising thing when you asked me to look at, like, what, what does, what do, what do scholars say about the body of wider apocalyptic literature?
Seth: Yeah.
David: The one function that they say it, it does is hope.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Not just Revelation. Of course, Revelation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But of the, the genre of apocalyptic literature-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is hope. It's not prediction. It's not, you know, uh-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... e- even like, it's not even unveiling-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... as the core function. The use of it is hope.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Whereas, whereas our apocalyptic genre today might be, um, to humble people-
Seth: That's right
David: ... to expose, to humiliate.
Seth: Yeah, or even just to... Yeah, I've watched some very sad movies, like, oh, this is-
David: Hopeless.
Seth: Right.
David: Hopelessness might be the point.
Seth: Hopelessness, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the point of all apocalyptic literature and Revelation is par excellence-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is it is a book of hope.
Seth: Mm.
David: So if we, at any point, start going down a road that's not leading to hope, we're reading it wrong. [chuckles]
Seth: Right.
David: So-
Seth: If you get to the end of the book, the end of the Book of Revelation, and you're not hopeful-
David: Right
Seth: ... for [chuckles] -
David: It's like you missed something. [chuckles]
Seth: You might, you might have missed something. [chuckles]
David: Which is the exact opposite feeling we talked about, kind of like, that I think we felt when sometimes reading, uh, like the Left Behind series or something.
Seth: Right.
David: I just felt hopeless. I felt afraid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I felt like there was this coming thing that I couldn't avoid, and I really wanted to, [chuckles] and it's like, no, it's actually a book of hope.
Seth: That's interesting. Yeah, and I think maybe even more granularly, it's like, I think you could look at the Left Behind series of 12 books and say, "Well, it ends in hope, but the seven... the scorpions-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... coming out of the earth-
David: Right
Seth: ... are not hopeful."
David: Right.
Seth: I think I would probably take that, like, the hermeneutic of hope-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that we should have in the Book of Revelation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to apply to almost every part of it, like, every part of it is meant to communicate hope to people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so as we've been studying this, like, there's no part of this that is just pure judgment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if it is judgment, it is meant to invoke hope for those who trust in Jesus.
David: That's right. Yeah.
Seth: So if you read even, even a section of Revelation without the hope of what Jesus can accomplish, we're reading it wrong.
David: Yeah, and I think a lot of this comes out of the question, where did the apocalyptic genre come from?
Seth: Okay.
David: So there's, there's been lots of schools of thought around this, but the prevailing idea right now among scholars is actually an older idea. So all the new ideas that people came up with in, like, the 20th century-
Seth: Right
David: ... have been debunked, and you go back to the 1800s, an older idea, and it's that it's not that, uh, Jewish apocalyptic literature was borrowed from another society. That's actually been debunked.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, it's not that Jewish apocalyptic literature came out of, like, an e- like an evolution of the prophetic genre-
Seth: Right
David: ... 'cause you can see that natural evolution.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's like you read some prophecies, and you're like, "I mean, it kinda has some weird, poetic, symbolic language-
Seth: Mm, mm.
David: ... but their elements are completely different."
Seth: Yep.
David: And so what, what the prevailing theory right now is that apocalyptic literature actually came out of the wisdom tradition of Israel.
Seth: Okay.
David: So like Proverbs, like the Book of Proverbs, and that is based in an, a wise, ordered universe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that the, the world is built in a deterministic way.
Seth: So there's a right way to live in the world.
David: That's right.
Seth: And when you live in the world in that right way, things go well.
David: Yes.
Seth: And when you don't live in the world that right way, things go horribly.
David: That's right.
Seth: And it's revealing that, that truth.
David: Yes, that's it.
Seth: And yeah.
David: It's revealing the wisdom of God underneath the chaos of the world or the, the things of the world that seem to break-
Seth: Right
David: ... the, the, the wise way God's ordered the world, and the Jewish wisdom literature does that arguing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in our own Bibles.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, you know, Ecclesiastes takes one stance and is like, you know, "What happens when you follow all the good things that God said to do? Ah, it's all-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's all meaningless." A- and then, and Job is like, "Well, what happens whenever you're a righteous man? You suffer."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, wait!
Seth: Right.
David: But Proverbs said that, "If you are wise, you'll be blessed." So what's happening?
Seth: What's happening?
David: And it's trying to reveal that mystery.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And so you can see that progression, less from a artistic side, like how the words are written and how the story's collected, and more from a theological, philosophical side of l- how do we have this conversation in an, in a narrative way, in, in a cosmological way?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's maybe where the apocalyptic genre came from, is having these ideas of God's wise and determined order of the world and his ultimate victory-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... over the chaos and the contradictions.
Seth: Right.
David: Wisdom wins.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anyway.
Seth: It's interesting. I keep drawing parallels to, like, modern-day apocalyptic literature, uh, m- apocalyptic movies, but this is a feature of modern movies, too-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because there's a wisdom in acknowledging human limits.
David: Right.
Seth: And when humans start experimenting on apes-
David: Right
Seth: ... our cr- our creations will rise up and destroy us.
David: Planet of the Apes.
Seth: The Planet of... It is a whole 12 movies! [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Of, like, of when we break the way the world is supposed to work-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when humans don't act like humans-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the world devolves.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh-
David: We're unwise.
Seth: We're unwise.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's interesting.
David: Yeah, so there we go. That's the first word. [chuckles]
Seth: The first word.
David: That's apocalypse. [gentle music] Okay, so that's the first word. That is apocalypse. Uh, what's the second one? [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, the second one we said we've started to address already, that must soon take place.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so this could maybe get into, like, the dating conversation-
David: Okay, yeah
Seth: ... uh, or even, like, how we're supposed to read it, but let's maybe bring it down.
David: Okay.
Seth: When the Bible says-... soon.
David: Mm.
Seth: What does the Bible mean? [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: Does it mean soon as God means soon?
David: Right.
Seth: And since God's an eternal being, soon could be a million years, it could-
David: To him, a day is like 1,000 years-
Seth: Right
David: ... 1,000 years is like a day. Soon's relative.
Seth: Or is this written to human beings who have normally an expectation of what soon might mean?
David: Right.
Seth: So that's kind of the, the first-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... layered question here.
David: Right.
Seth: Do you have off-the-cuff, like, responses to that? [chuckles]
David: I mean, I think that the... Okay, I'm just gonna just- I'm gonna repeat what my rabbi taught me.
Seth: Jesus?
David: Jesus.
Seth: I didn't know if you had [chuckles] another rabbi. [laughing]
David: I sure hope I don't.
Seth: [chuckles] Well, I mean, like, just like a Fred rabbi. [laughing]
David: [laughing] I got one rabbi.
Seth: Uh.
David: And, you know, he's like, "You know, I'm, I'm coming soon."
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, and it seemed that that means two things. It seems that when people wanted to be like, "Okay, so, like, what's, uh, w- uh, you know, how soon- how soon? What are gonna be the signs that you're coming?" And he's like, "Just be ready," that these are things that are happening soon. That phrase, I'm guessing, should create some kind of immediacy and expectancy in order not necessarily to determine when the events are going to occur, but more about the state of the reader's heart that they should have about what's about to be said. That's kinda like what Jesus did.
Seth: Yes. Uh-
David: And then the other side of things is, I mean, Jesus, you know, t- tended to phrase things, and his disciples tended to assume-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... things were going to happen soon.
Seth: Yeah, they-
David: They did not
Seth: ... yeah.
David: So it also has to mean or has to have the range of meaning to things that-
Seth: Right
David: ... will happen in the future.
Seth: Yeah, the end, but very end of the Book of Revelation says: "Behold, I'm coming soon."
David: Oh-
Seth: So-
David: it begins and ends the same way.
Seth: It begins and ends the same way.
David: Yeah, interesting.
Seth: So again, so we've just said, okay, well, Jesus seemed to mean it kind of the same way. He meant, "Behold, I'm coming soon," in, like, the Second Coming sense, he's coming soon.
David: Yep, right.
Seth: Like, and that hasn't happened 2,000 years on.
David: Yep.
Seth: A lot of the biblical interpreters say, "No, no, Jesus did mean s- come... He was coming soon, and that happened when-
David: Oh, Pentecost.
Seth: Pentecost came.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or that happened when the temple was destroyed.
David: Yep, 'cause that's the prophecies he gives right after saying that.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Matthew 24, where he, like, predicts the fall-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of the temple, a lot of that imagery is still here in Revelation.
David: That's right.
Seth: So it could be that it's within that timeframe. Let me just... It's kinda hard to talk about this w- within generalities, so let me just state it to you really starkly.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think when we read this, we should read it from the human perspective first.
David: Uh, like, from, what do you mean, human? Like, my perspective?
Seth: As in my perspective of what soon is.
David: Oh, oh, I underst- of, of soon, not the Book of Revelation.
Seth: Not the Book of Revelation.
David: When we read the word soon-
Seth: When we read this word soon-
David: ... we should think like soon
Seth: This is an apocalypse meant to s- meant to give you hope and salvation.
David: Right.
Seth: "And behold, these things will soon take place-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that give you hope."
David: Yep.
Seth: And I think, for me, that feels one of the most compelling readings of Revelation, is when we take these things as, uh, things that are happening in the near future for the readers of Revelation.
David: Mm.
Seth: I think it's easy to get lost in all the crazy imagery that is used, but the first three chapters are all written to people in real-life churches.
David: Right.
Seth: Chapters 4 and 5 are not visions of the future, but visions of Jesus rising to his throne right after his death.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: So the first five chapters, the first 20% of the book-
David: Are happening, like, right now
Seth: ... are happening right now or recently in the past.
David: Yep.
Seth: So I th- I think, and just to show my card before we get into everything else, I think we should read soon really as happening soon-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in our perspective of things.
David: And, and happening soon from the original reader's standpoint.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, 2,000 years ago.
Seth: 2,000 years ago soon.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think a lot of what's being talked about in Revelation has already happened-
David: Right
Seth: ... in some ways.
David: Yep.
Seth: And I think a lot of it will still happen.
David: Right.
Seth: But that's part of the tug of Revelation, and it's also a feature of prophecy-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which is what he also describes his book as.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right?
David: Oh, yeah, 'cause prophecy-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was, was always had that dual element, but most of it actually, if you read Old Testament prophecy-
Seth: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos
David: ... they're talking about things that are going on right now.
Seth: That's right.
David: And they're doing a revealing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They're like, "Oh, y- you think that the Assyrians are coming 'cause they're big and bad and mean? They're really coming right now because of your sin."
Seth: That's right.
David: Yep, and then also, yeah, they will also talk about things that will happen, but that's actually more rare than-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... prophecy talking about what's happening right now and showing God's perspective of current human events.
Seth: That's right. Most of Hebrew prophecy that you can read right now in your Bible is prophets describing the consequences for failing to live up to God's law-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in their real-world political situations-
David: Mm, mm
Seth: ... normally addressing kings and nations, right?
David: Right.
Seth: That's what prophecy is doing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so when they get these crazy announcements or these crazy visions, these visions point to specific human kings-
David: Mm
Seth: ... specific human figures that would've been alive at the time of the writing of the prophecy. And frequently, frequently, those visions of current realities get doubled-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or telescoped or repeated or fulfilled by Jesus later, so right?
David: Right.
Seth: So it's like Isaiah has a prophecy of this king who will come, called the Prince of Peace.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And he was referring to a real person-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in his time.
David: Yep, and he, and this is the same king that fulfills the virgin birth-
Seth: That's right
David: ... prophecy, that Matthew says is fulfilled in Jesus.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's the telescoping you're talking about.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yes, the prophet is saying, "This is happening right now, and it's gonna happen with this king."
Seth: Yep.
David: But he's al- but that doesn't mean that that can't mean that Jesus fulfills it in a greater or telescoped way in the future.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And part of prophecy isn't just a theological interpretation of current events that sometimes accidentally or intentionally reflect the second coming of Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or tells a future reality. Sometimes they just tell straight-up future things.
David: Right.
Seth: Right, and they just say things that are gonna happen in the future-
David: Yep
Seth: ... without qualification.
David: So many times throughout Isaiah, you'll hear, "And the nations will stream back into Zion."
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like, well, that don't, that's not happening right now.
Seth: In Zechariah, it says, "One day, God will protect Jerusalem with a wall of fire-
David: Wall of fire. [chuckles]
Seth: ... and nobody will be able to assail her yet again." I'm like, "Okay."
David: Okay. Has that happened? [chuckles]
Seth: Has that happened yet? [chuckles] Um, uh, so I, I say that because that also helps understand what, what soon means.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Prophecy, as the Old Testament understands prophecy, always had a real-world referent.... generally before it had a future reference.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so I think as we approach Revelation, we should cheat or we should lean to reading it historically-
David: Right
Seth: ... before we-
David: For the people who needed the hope in that moment?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, how would, how would they understand it?
Seth: Until we jump to the-
David: Right
Seth: ... what, well, what could it mean in the future?
David: Yeah. Okay, so then I've got a, uh, we got one more word we haven't talked about.
Seth: We got one more, that's right.
David: It was the third one, and, and w- I, I had trouble finding it. What, what was the word?
Seth: Yeah, so in your, it depends on your translation.
David: Okay.
Seth: But if you read verse one, [laughing] it says-
David: Oh, that's why it's hard to find.
Seth: It says, uh, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known."
David: Oh, made it known.
Seth: That phrase, made it known.
David: Okay.
Seth: I'm reading from the ESV. I think the NIV has the same. The New King James might have that, but the old King James has signify. You have a range of different ways of reading this word, but it's a very rare word.
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, the author could have used the word... The, the Greek word is semaino.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He could have used a whole bunch of other words to connotate knowing something that wasn't been known before, but this specific Greek word is actually used in the Book of Daniel.
David: Oh, in the Septuagint?
Seth: In the Septuagint, and it is used to understand the vision that, the dream that King Nebuchadnezzar has of this four-parted statue.
David: Mm.
Seth: And in fact, the whole of this opening line right here is copied from Daniel chapter two. It follows the same structure.
David: Oh.
Seth: So the p- the, John, the author of Revelation, is using the structure of a verse from Revelat- uh, Daniel chapter two to talk about his new work that he's working on, and using the same language that Daniel is using right before he interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream of this giant four-parted statue.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: Which we're gonna see Jesus as.
Seth: Yeah, we'll see Jesus as a statue-
David: Yeah [chuckles] right
Seth: ... here in just a second.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So here, so why is that significant?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Because, well, that tells us that word signify is that we are dealing primarily with symbols-
David: Mm
Seth: ... not primarily with literal objects.
David: Yes. A, a way to maybe help clarify that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is John's own writing in the gospel, he actually uses this word the most out of any biblical author.
Seth: He does.
David: And I, I'm just doing a quick word scrub. He uses it three times in his gospel, and each time is, "And Jesus said this to show"-
Seth: That's right
David: ... to, what was the word you used? Signify.
Seth: Signify.
David: What kind of death he was going to die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So whenever he says, "Tear this temple down, and I'll rebuild it in three days"-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he- everyone was like: "You can't do that!" Like, they took it literally.
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like: "No, I'm saying this to signify something else."
Seth: That's right.
David: It's a symbol of what? Of my death and resurrection.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, that's a really clear picture of-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Jesus said, "I'm gonna tear down the temple and raise it up again," he didn't mean that l- I mean, I guess that also does happen.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: But he's doing that to signify something else.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: So you're saying we need to treat things-
Seth: That's right
David: ... in Revelation as symbols.
Seth: And so what happened in the, the Daniel story?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Nebuchadnezzar had this dream of a giant statue made of four different types of metals that was struck down by a giant mountain, comet mountain-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that grew to fill the earth. And what's the interpretation of that? These four metals represent four kingdoms, and they're eventually all struck down by another kingdom coming.
David: Right.
Seth: And so it was very clear to Daniel and to Nebuchadnezzar, after Daniel interpreted it, that his vision of some sort of strange, otherworldly reality was a symbol of something happening in real life future.
David: Right.
Seth: So one way to say it is, I think most of us come to the Bible, or many of us come to the Bible, with a desire to read it literally first-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and only symbolically when we need to.
David: Mm.
Seth: But the Book of Revelation actually invites us to do the opposite. We should read it symbolically first, and only literate, literally when we need to.
David: Right.
Seth: And the symbols are John's chosen mean to communicate to us, and to treat them as literal things would be to mess with John's intention for the letter.
David: Yes.
Seth: Does that make...
David: That makes sense.
Seth: Am I, am I making myself clear?
David: I think you're making a lot of sense, yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, whenever we read, uh, uh, are there locusts in Revelation? I think so.
Seth: There are locusts in Revelation.
David: Okay, so when we read locusts, the wrong impulse that John, uh, it w- that, that John doesn't want to invite us into is to be like, "Okay, so insects are coming."
Seth: Right. That's right.
David: "At this time or because of this action... So there's gonna be a time when there's gonna be a lot of insects."
Seth: Right.
David: Maybe.
Seth: Maybe.
David: But the, but that would be the second thing that we need to do. What we need to say is, "Okay, that m- is probably a symbol. What could that symbol mean based on all the other context, everything else-
Seth: Mm
David: ... he's trying to communicate to me?"
Seth: That's right.
David: And then get to what it means, instead of like, "Okay, it's, it's locusts."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, I mean, that makes sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's what he's inviting us into.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then before we move on-
David: Yep
Seth: ... let's talk about one other, like, thing-
David: One other thing
Seth: ... that's really important about the Book of Revelation.
David: Okay.
Seth: It is full of so much Old Testament.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: I think something like 407 allusions.
David: Are you serious?
Seth: Uh, and there's only, like, 200-something verses.
David: That's [chuckles] incredible!
Seth: Um, uh, so John is painting with the palette of the Old Testament.
David: That, I like that phrase.
Seth: I think I stole it from somewhere. [chuckles]
David: All right, good. Okay, that's good.
Seth: From Peter Leithart.
David: Oh, Peter Leithart.
Seth: Uh, painting with the palette of the Old Testament to encourage his current audience. And so when we get to a symbol we don't understand-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... our gut reaction is to take it literally, because that's makes sense to us. "Okay, the Bi- I trust the Bible. God isn't a lie."
David: Right! Yes.
Seth: "So it's gotta be locusts."
David: Right.
Seth: Or we see that thing, and we start to think, "Well, maybe it's referencing something in my future reality-
David: Right
Seth: ... or something I'm experiencing currently. Maybe the locusts are helicopters. Maybe the locusts are this false teaching I'm experiencing-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... in my church."
David: Right.
Seth: "Maybe they're the false prayers of the church of Satan. I don't know. Maybe they, they are a referent to something I experience." But because-... [chuckles] Revelation is so full of Old Testament imagery, the first place you should run where you meet a symbol you don't understand is actually backwards-
David: So good
Seth: ... to read the rest, to read the rest of your Bible.
David: 'Cause that's the colors-
Seth: That's-
David: -he's painting with.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: That's so helpful.
Seth: So that's, that, that's our, should be our impulse.
David: Okay.
Seth: When we're like, "I don't quite get this." Well, how was it used-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the Old Testament?
David: Right.
Seth: When he's riffing on Zechariah-
David: Yep
Seth: ... what does Zechariah-
David: What does he talking about?
Seth: -have in mind when he has horses?
David: Right, 'cause he's doing that on purpose.
Seth: He's doing that on purpose, right.
David: That's really, really helpful, and I think you're right. I think my impulse when I run up against something in a book like this, or even just when I'm reading the New Testament, because, you know, this is, this is not unique to Revelation.
Seth: That's right.
David: Maybe the density of the allusions-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But, like, that is a great just, let's just stop for a second and just give this [chuckles]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as a PSA to us all as Bible students, is when we're seeing something in the New Testament we don't understand, is there an Old Testament thing that the author's pulling on? That's where you gotta run first.
Seth: That's right.
David: Let's... Do I get to say my favorite, my favorite nerd phrase?
Seth: Please.
David: It's called the hermeneutical spiral. [chuckles]
Seth: Oh, yes.
David: It's the idea of letting the Bible interpret itself.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Instead of going outside of the Bible for interpretation, does the Bible provide a tighter coil of interpretation to get down to what it means-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... first?
Seth: Yeah. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we've, we've finally made it through the first three verses.
Seth: [chuckles] Right.
David: Wonderful.
Seth: [laughing] What's next? Well, I think it would probably just be helpful to kind of give a brief overview of the ways people read the Book of Revelation.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then kind of just say, "Hey, here's where we land at the outset."
David: All right.
Seth: So, [clears throat] if you're familiar with the Book of Revelation and scholarship around the Book of Revelation, you probably are aware there's two primary camps-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that people fall into when they read the Book of Revelation. The first is a, mostly a historical understanding of the book, and kind of what we've been hinting at so far, that these accord, and these are talking about historic realities right now, in the past or in the future.
David: Things that are actually going to happen-
Seth: In real time-
David: ... in real time
Seth: ... in some way.
David: So when you mean history, don't, you don't mean past?
Seth: It could be past. It could be past-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... it could be our current reality, or it could be future.
David: Okay.
Seth: So let me give you some examples.
David: Okay, okay, good.
Seth: And these all have different names, but I'm simplifying for the sake of this podcast.
David: Right.
Seth: But there's a, a variety of interpretations that read Revelation as the description of some era of human history.
David: Oh, that's helpful.
Seth: One that I find particularly compelling is reading the Book of Revelation as a description of the events leading up to the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
David: Right, and these- A-
Seth: D.
David: D.
Seth: AD.
David: Seven- 70. So there were letters and then numbers.
Seth: What did I say?
David: No, you said it absolutely right. It just, some... I always think that phrase is funny because-
Seth: AD 70
David: ... it sounds like you're saying eighty-seventy, like-
Seth: Eight-
David: ... the 8-0-7-0.
Seth: That's right, yeah, yeah.
David: But it's AD.
Seth: In the-
David: In the year of our Lord. [chuckles]
Seth: Anno Domini, uh-
David: 70
Seth: ... in Latin. [chuckles] Um, uh, some sort of historical era.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I find that view particularly compelling. Other people throughout history have read Revelation as a referent to a particular period of time that they were experiencing. So, like many reformers, thought it was a refer- Book of Revelation was talking about the rise and fall of the Catholic Church.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, some historical reference.
David: Right.
Seth: And people have done that throughout time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we do that same thing when we read it in kind of like a Left Behind series.
David: Right.
Seth: This is speaking to us today, and the details of the Book of Revelation, if you understand them correctly, reveal-
David: What's about to happen
Seth: ... what's about to happen in our world as we know it, with helicopters and nuclear weapons and democracies and dictatorships. That's what it's talking about.
David: Right.
Seth: The other way to read it is primarily in the far, far, far future, that has no referent to where we are right now.
David: Oh, so this is not the historical-
Seth: It is in the sense of-
David: Okay
Seth: ... it is a future reality describing real events, and normally with this futurism-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is a literalism, generally.
David: Okay, so things that, that are so fantastic that I can't... You can't even map them on-
Seth: Right
David: ... current events.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: In the future, God will send chariots that look like locusts-
David: Oh
Seth: ... that look like-
David: Okay, okay, okay
Seth: ... uh, with the hair of, with the hair of women. [chuckles]
David: Gotcha.
Seth: Like, that's what.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so that's one way to read it historically.
David: Right.
Seth: To honor the l- the images-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in a literal way-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is to say, "That's way... gonna happen in the future- "
David: Gotcha
Seth: ... in a real historical sense.
David: Okay, that's helpful.
Seth: Okay?
David: Yep.
Seth: So this is a historic-
David: That's the one camp of historic.
Seth: Yes.
David: These are gonna play out on the human stage in some era of human history.
Seth: Yes.
David: Boom. And sometimes that's, like, all past, some future, some it's like, "Oh, it's on our doorstep. Here's where everything ties," and some's like, "Locusts from heaven are coming."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's the historical understanding of the Book of Revelation-
Seth: Yep
David: ... with all kinds of stripes of interpretation.
Seth: Yes, from varying from symbolic to literal-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to whatever.
David: So what's the other one?
Seth: The other one is generally called, like, [chuckles] recapitulationist view or the idealist view-
David: Idealist
Seth: ... or the patterned view.
David: Okay.
Seth: And its view of Revelation is that Revelation is not meant to address any particular period in human history, but all eras-
David: Of-
Seth: ... human history.
David: Yeah, and, and since it does address all eras of human history as this recapitulated pattern, oh, you might be like, "Oh, that's why it, it..." You think it's that-
Seth: Right
David: ... because it's, it maps onto how human history always goes.
Seth: Right.
David: And that's-
Seth: That's-
David: ... why it's easy to map onto the temple. It's easy to map onto the fall of the Catholic Church. It's easy to map-
Seth: That's right
David: ... 'cause it's always happening.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so, and there's evidence for that within Revelation.
David: Right.
Seth: Revelation is structured as a repeating set of sevens.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it seems like the same event happens three times. The world seems to end three different times-
David: Right
Seth: ... or four different times-
David: Yes, at the end, yeah
Seth: ... within the Book of Revelation.
David: Right.
Seth: So how do you make sense of the total collapse of the cosmos at the end of every other, every fourth chapter?
David: [chuckles] Right.
Seth: Well, maybe it's intending to show you-... the pattern of history.
David: Yes.
Seth: Powers rise-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then powers fall. Uh, Christians are persecuted, but then the Christians are raised up to eternal life in Jesus.
David: Yes, one of my favorite theologians who's written on this, he describes it as watching a football game.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's the same game okay?
Seth: Okay.
David: But let's say at one time you watched it, and you were a coach on the field.
Seth: That's right.
David: And then another time you watched it, and you were up in the stands. And another time you watched it, you were in the Goodyear Blimp above the, above it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you're gonna see different things each time. It's gonna look a little different-
Seth: That's right
David: ... but you're watching the same game three times.
Seth: That's right.
David: So that's how he's described it.
Seth: And so that's another way to take the Book of Revelation.
David: Right.
Seth: So at the end of the day, where I've landed on this for now is that I can't decide. [laughing]
David: [laughing] Yes!
Seth: Um, because I think both views present problems.
David: Yep, and they also both have a ton of merit and helpful ways-
Seth: Right
David: ... of helping us understand the book.
Seth: The two places I lean most are, this is description of reality leading up to the fall of, of Jerusalem-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the year of our Lord [chuckles] seventy.
David: Seventy. [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, and the idealist position, which says that this is, like, showing us a pattern of how world powers will rise and fall, persecute Christians, and God will ultimately preserve his church.
David: Okay, so let me say that again, 'cause I think I'm hearing you. So where you're kind of ambiguously leaning right now [chuckles] is that Revelation describes the, uh, events that are going to happen or have happened or whatever, that, that kind of point we haven't made yet, but the events leading up to the destruction of the temple in the year 70.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that type of event, those types of world events, and what-
Seth: Mm
David: ... occurs in them recapitulate again and again through history, showing us a norm-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for how the world operates and how God responds.
Seth: Right, and I think that accords with the prophetic nature of the book.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? It's like this is descript- John is a prophet-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... describing world realities, calling people to action.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that, those prophecies of his current era and things that were soon to take place in his current era then act as patterns for Christ to fulfill later on.
David: Yes.
Seth: The same way the virgin birth in Isaiah's day was true of a character in his life, so, too, of Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The same thing is happening in the Book of Revelation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, I mean, there's a whole... I mean, there's, there's a whole bunch there that we could continue to talk about.
David: Right. Before we move on from that, though-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I do wanna land the plane, 'cause I think some people might be like, "Cool. Yeah, that sounds great. Let's, let's explore it." And then I think other people might be like, "Destruction of the temple?"
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... I, I think, like, there are, there are a few things that might be helpful-
Seth: Great
David: ... to talk about there. Because I think for people so far removed maybe from, you know, the Old Testament reading of Scripture, from Israel, from... You know, it, it can be easy to forget about the temple. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? And then even then, it can be really easy to not understand the importance of it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... especially to a first-century Jewish person.
Seth: Right.
David: And so, uh, two things to note there. One, when Jesus talked about the destruction of the temple, which he explicitly talked about many, many times-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he used this kind of apocalyptic language to talk about it.
Seth: He did. The falling of stars from heaven.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He... Yeah. He-
David: Yeah, and so, like, those two things, Revelation, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how Jesus talked about the destruction of the temple, they just go hand in glove.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it makes sense to read them as, uh, referring to the same event.
Seth: Yeah. In Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus has a long, extended conversation with his disciples about when-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the temple was going to be destroyed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He talks about wars and rumors of wars, famines-
David: Yep
Seth: ... earthquakes, the-
David: The moon turning to-
Seth: The-
David: ... or the sun turning to blood or some-
Seth: But-
David: Some... Yeah
Seth: ... and he says all these things are gonna happen before this generation passes away.
David: Right, and-
Seth: And
David: ... it did.
Seth: And it, and it did.
David: In the year 70.
Seth: And so I think a l- in a lot of ways, Revelation is kind of picking up where Jesus left off-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and filling in the rest of that prophecy. Here is, in more detail, what our Savior said would happen-
David: Right
Seth: ... until that, that day comes.
David: That's right.
Seth: And to answer your question, like, well, why is that important?
David: Mm.
Seth: Why would that... Like, why would the destruction of the temple warrant an entire book of the Bible?
David: Right.
Seth: Why would it be such a, a facet of Jesus's own ministry-
David: Right
Seth: ... that he's condemning that thing, and why do we have a whole book potentially-
David: Potentially
Seth: ... dating it at that time-
David: Right
Seth: ... describing that event? Um, I think the best way to just summarize it is that the world is a temple from the Garden of Eden.
David: This was my other point, so yes.
Seth: Uh, [chuckles] like, God has intended humanity to live with him in a space, and it was intended to be the whole world.
David: Right.
Seth: The whole world was-
David: That was what the garden was for.
Seth: The whole world was supposed to be a temple.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When humanity refused to [chuckles] cooperate with God, sinned, rebelled against him, that presence could no longer dwell in the whole world, but it dwelt in a place.
David: Right.
Seth: In the tabernacle at one point in history and in the temple.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that place represented the cosmic center of God's universe.
David: Yes.
Seth: The Earth is supposed to be the cosmic center of God's dealing with humanity, all of the Earth.
David: Right.
Seth: But now that's localized in the temple.
David: Right, and so in a sense, in the Jewish mind, the whole world, the whole c- the whole cosmos was contained and held within the temple.
Seth: That's right.
David: The temple was the world.
Seth: That's right.
David: It was the idealized world.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so if it fell, it would be the end of the world.
Seth: It would be the end of the world as they knew it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Which is what we said apocalyptic literature does.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yes. [chuckles]
Seth: And just to lean into that a little bit, it's like this is related to the way that Jesus is a new temple and Jesus is a new sacrifice. The temple was the center of their world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in the center of their world was the blood of animals, where atonement was offered to humanity, and God's presence spread out, and blessing and all good things came from there.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: When Jesus dies as a sacrifice and rises to his throne and becomes our new temple, what happens to the old center of the universe?
David: Mm, it has to pass away.
Seth: It has to pass away.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so for a whole generation of Christians who were raised in the temple-
David: Oh, goodness, it would be so cataclysmic of a shift
Seth: ... and then for a whole gru- a whole religion that aren't, don't believe in-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus, the Messiah-
David: Right
Seth: ... this represents the shattering of their whole world.
David: W- yeah, 'cause everybody used temples.
Seth: Right, yeah. It's like-
David: Yeah, not just Jews used temples.
Seth: Yes.
David: Everybody, u-... got to gods through temples.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, and what's ama- I've never thought about this side of things now, actually, is it's like, and so now when the revelator, when John goes into this, you know, supernatural place where Jesus is, he's showing us around the new temple. Like, we- we're gonna see pictures.
Seth: Oh, yes, that's right.
David: He's like, he's like, "I know you're worried that the earthly temple's gone. Let me give you a tour of the new, eternal, unbreakable-
Seth: Yes
David: ... heavenly temple that you now get to access God in."
Seth: The very first thing John the Revelator describes the churches as are lampstands-
David: Oh, my goodness
Seth: ... in a new temple.
David: Right.
Seth: Because the new temple will not be a physical place, but all of God's people throughout the cosmos [chuckles]-
David: Right
Seth: ... right.
David: Yep, because inside of Israel's temple was-
Seth: Lampstands
David: ... a lampstand-
Seth: Right
David: ... with little lamps.
Seth: With little lights in it.
David: And he's like, "You are now those little lights on the lampstand in God's temple."
Seth: That's right.
David: Oh, my Gosh!
Seth: So that's why it deserves a spa- And then what- how does the, the book end? It ends where there is no temple.
David: Right.
Seth: But the people of God are described as if they were a temple.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, so-
David: And Jesus is the light.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the reason why-
David: It's amazing
Seth: ... I think reading the Book of Revelation in view of the destruction of the temple is partly because of all this significance [chuckles]-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, like the, that's baked into this. There is a new center of the universe, and that deserves [chuckles]-
David: Yeah, and if you're talking about, like, apocalypses bring hope.
Seth: Yes.
David: And if your... The center of your universe is being destroyed, you need hope.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the hope that it offers is there's a new eternal temple in Jesus.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that's why the Book of Revelation is good news. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing] And that's it, we're still the gospel.
David: That's really... [chuckles] That's great! Okay, what else do we need to touch on today?
Seth: Well, we promised.
David: We promised the 666.
Seth: We... I think the other thing people come, come to the Book of Revelation and ask is like: "Well, what do you do with all the weird images?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Okay, you've given me a whole bunch of great categories-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you've given me s- things, but what do you do with the images, in particular, and what do you do with the numbers?"
David: So many numbers.
Seth: Even more specifically.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and so I-
David: Yeah, especially [chuckles] because for us, numbers do feel so specific.
Seth: Uh, right, that's exactly right.
David: [chuckles] Yeah.
Seth: So I wanted to give a couple examples from Revelation 13.
David: Do it.
Seth: So in Revelation 13, we get an image of a beast.
David: Okay, yep.
Seth: So in Revelation chapter-
David: Like the Beauty and the Beast?
Seth: Li- just like that.
David: Okay.
Seth: There's this... In chapter 12, there's this, uh, dragon that is hunting a woman.
David: Yes.
Seth: And this dragon loses this battle with the woman, and it's cast to the earth. And once it's cast to the earth, it calls up out of the sea a beast, and this is what the beast looks like. "And I saw a beast rising out of the sea with 10 horns and seven heads and 10 diamonds on its horns and blasphemous names on its head. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard. Its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it, the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. And then one of the heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but the mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast."
David: I don't know why we're even making podcasts. It's so [chuckles]... What?
Seth: [chuckles] It's so, so, so clear.
David: So simple, yeah.
Seth: So we s- we said that when you come across an image that you don't understand, the first place you should go is-
David: Old Testament
Seth: ... back to the Old Testament, and almost all of these images are straight from the Book of Daniel.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the Book of Daniel descri- remember those- that four-parted statue-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that represented four kingdoms? Well, Daniel has a dream later where there's four animals-
David: Mm, mm
Seth: ... who represent four kingdoms that will one day overthrow the Babylonian Empire.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? All of those animals he described as successive kingdoms are now combined into one animal, right?
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: They're one beast-
David: Yep
Seth: ... rising out of the sea. So Daniel has taught us to read beasts as successive kingdoms.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So what does it mean when all the animals are combined as one? It could mean that they're- it's a more powerful kingdom, or the kingdom to end all kingdoms, but, like, it represents a real national political threat-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the people of God.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's what it represents. So I think that's really just helpful to say out loud.
David: Right.
Seth: And so the other question is, why is it rising out of the sea?
David: Uh-huh. Because it's gonna come from overseas. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: No. I know the... I mean, but like, to, to lean it to-
Seth: Right
David: ... make your point.
Seth: Right, right, right. Yeah.
David: It's like, you don't just go like, "Okay, if it came from the sea, it has to come from overseas."
Seth: Right.
David: So what, what's the Old Testament teach us about the sea? What, what's the Hebrew understanding of the sea?
Seth: The f- the, the, the first thing I think about when I think about the sea, this is probably just me, that there was a sea in the temple.
David: Oh, yeah-
Seth: There's a-
David: ... that's not what I thought of.
Seth: There's a giant basin-
David: Bowl
Seth: ... of water-
David: Yeah, of course
Seth: ... in there, and it was upheld by 12 oxen.
David: Oh!
Seth: Right? Which is-
David: Yeah, that's interesting
Seth: ... it's an interesting image. And I think what it's supposed to represent is that the 12 tribes of Israel are upholding the known world, particularly the Gentile world.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the sea represents the Gentile nations-
David: Right
Seth: ... the rest of the world. And they, as a people, are supposed to represent the ways of God to the world. So every time they walk into the temple, they see a representation of who they're meant to be to the entire world.
David: Mm.
Seth: They're meant to be a people who uphold the world by following God's wisdom and His commands and showing them a nation built around God's presence and His justice.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Right.
Seth: One way to understand that image.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so if a beast is coming out of a sea, and-
David: If a nation is coming out of the Gentiles-
Seth: Uh, yep, yeah
David: ... is, yeah.
Seth: That means- Well, so I think the idea here is that it's gonna be not a Jewish nation-
David: Right
Seth: ... is gonna rise to power-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but a foreign nation-
David: Right
Seth: ... is gonna rise to power, and a particularly powerful foreign nation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is gonna rise to power and persecute the people of God.
David: Right.
Seth: So you, so there's that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as a way to read this, there's connotations of the sea that are other than Gentiles.
David: Yeah. What are the numbers doing there?
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: You don't have to interpret all of them, but what are they... W- Okay, if the beasts, if the animals are trying to make me think about Daniel-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... to, to let me know, like, this is just a nation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay, I get that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The sea, you know, it... Uh, that's another symbol, a visual symbol, that the-
Seth: That the Old Testament tells us it references Gentiles.
David: Okay, cool. What are the numbers doing?
Seth: So the numbers kinda- You should go back and read the Old Testament, and these numbers frequently appear-... in the Old Testament. Seven obviously begins in the first pages of the Bible.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's seven days of creation and throughout the Bible, they generally represent either completeness, like the whole world is completed in seven days. [chuckles]
David: Right.
Seth: And so it kind of carries this connotation of just completeness, but it also carries kind of the connotation of creative power.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: So if something has seven heads-
David: It's very powerful
Seth: ... it's a very powerful thing that's inau- could potentially have the ability to inaugurate a new age-
David: A new world
Seth: ... a new world.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Like the, like Jesus- like God did in, in seven days.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, the number 10 is significant for a similar reason. There are Ten Commandments, and while... Right? Like-
David: Oh, like so, a- and it's holding a new law.
Seth: It's holding a new law. It's also another s- it's a round number signifying completeness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We're also told in the Book of Daniel that heads specifically represent different leaders as well. So it's like-
David: So maybe they have multiple governors over this nation or something.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's like we have a whole bunch of reasons why, looking back at the Book of Daniel, and say, "Okay, this is probably some super powerful foreign power that has a succession of leaders within it that will particularly harm the people of God."
David: Okay.
Seth: I give this example not to say that's determinative, that's the only way to read this-
David: Right. No, no, no, not the point
Seth: ... but a, an example of the way we should be approaching the Book of Revelation on its own terms. Full of Old Testament imagery. What do they say?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That might be what's going on right here.
David: Because equally, you could have gone like, "Oh, the sea represents the chaos that existed at the beginning of the world."
Seth: That's right.
David: And God, in seven days, created the orderly world out of it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, now you have the chaos of the world and all its upheavals, and you have a, a new thing with seven heads gonna create a new world order out of it.
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: Same idea is gonna come out.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, but the Bible-
Seth: You're-
David: Because the Bible's using its own images throughout-
Seth: That's right
David: ... it's gonna all speak to each other. So-
Seth: And yeah, so what we're demonstrating here is go back-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and read the symbols-
David: That's the point
Seth: ... in the Old Testament to do this. Secondly, then, let's go to... I think we've made our point there.
David: We made our point. 666.
Seth: 666.
David: Let's go.
Seth: Yeah, it's chapter, uh, 13:11 through 18. So after that first beast-
David: Mm
Seth: ... representing some foreign power, a second beast rises up.
David: Dope.
Seth: "It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon."
David: Oh, I know how they, I know how they talk. I've read The Hobbit.
Seth: It says... The thing about this-
David: They like riddles. [chuckles]
Seth: They like riddles. Uh, [chuckles]
David: Okay.
Seth: "It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed." So just even think about this. We have a force that seems like a god, seven days of creation. We have this beast-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... rising by the chaotic waters-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... with the power to create a new thing. It has a mortal wound, like Jesus did-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that was healed, and he's resurrected from his mortal wound. And now you have another beast talking and telling everybody to worship this false Christ figure.
David: Oh, interesting.
Seth: And we-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... just before this, I told you that a dragon fell-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and called this thing up out of the earth. So you have a false, demonic dragon father, a wounded, beastly-
David: Son
Seth: ... son, and then an, an abominable Holy Spirit telling people to follow this thing.
David: Oh, so this is like an anti-Trinity.
Seth: An anti-dark Trinity.
David: Oh, gosh!
Seth: And that's actually super important-
David: All right. [chuckles]
Seth: ... as we keep going, because we have a dark trinity being formed right here.
David: I'm so nervous.
Seth: [chuckles] Oh, an infernal trinity. Uh, "It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven and i- to earth in front of people." This is what the second beast does. "And by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. It was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who could, would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. Also, it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or on the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell until he has the mark. That is the name of the beast, of the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the one who understands calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666."
David: Okay. There it is.
Seth: There's, like, a whole... Like, 666, I think, is, like, in the title of so many horror movies.
David: Oh, absolutely. [chuckles]
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah.
Seth: So we set up a category. We have a false trinity here.
David: Yep.
Seth: We have a dragon, probably representing the infernal father, Satan, giving his power to some gentile force, and then we-
David: Some big nations.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then you have this religious figure-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who's gathering people to worship, trying to convince the world to worship-
David: Okay
Seth: ... this beast.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: And this is a dark trinity, a false trinity, and the way you pledge allegiance to this false trinity is by getting a mark on your hand or a mark on your forehead.
David: Okay.
Seth: And you have the number 666 associated with it. So question should be: Where in the Old Testament do we see hands and foreheads, and where in the Old Testament do we see 666?
David: Right. I like this question.
Seth: And the place that we see symbols on hands and foreheads as a demonstration of allegiance is Deuteronomy 6.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's when God's people, Israel, is told to worship the one true God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they're given what's- what He- Hebrew people call the Shema.
David: Right.
Seth: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." And this is the de- declaration of all citizens of Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: If you wanna buy or sell in Israel, if you're a free man or a slave man, what are all the language he's using right here?
David: Right.
Seth: This is how you be an, a member of the nation of Israel. A functioning member of Israel must say the Shema.
David: Yep.
Seth: They must pledge allegiance, and they should mark it on their forehead, and they should mark it on their hand.
David: Yeah, he's like, "Write it on your foreheads."
Seth: That's right.
David: "Put it on the doors of your houses."
Seth: Right.
David: Put it everywhere.
Seth: So what is this infernal trinity demanding of the world?
David: ... to put a different pledge on-
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't think this is a literal-
David: A tattoo. [chuckles]
Seth: My, my point is it- it's not a tattoo.
David: Right.
Seth: It's not a RFID chip.
David: Right.
Seth: Why? Because we've been told by the Old Testament that something that marks your allegiance to the God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is the proclamation of a statement. Here-
David: Which is, who do you love?
Seth: Who do you love?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in the priest's garment-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they wear something called phylacteries.
David: Right.
Seth: And they tie something around their forehead-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and they tie something around their hand-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it contains copies of the, the law.
David: Right.
Seth: Copies of the Torah.
David: Yes.
Seth: Copies of how to live in God's kingdom.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's how they function.
David: Right.
Seth: That's how-
David: And now, these are... This is an anti-phylactery.
Seth: That's right, that's right. It's an a-
David: It's not a new prescription drug.
Seth: Oh, [laughing] it's- [laughing] An anti-phylactery, an anti-shema-
David: Yes
Seth: ... meant to prove your allegiance to the beast.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so I-
David: Which is like giving your love, your allegiance-
Seth: That's right
David: ... to this nation.
Seth: That's right.
David: To a different power.
Seth: That's right.
David: Something other than God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Cool.
Seth: So again, this is kind of proving the same point that-
David: Right
Seth: ... we talked about before we get into the weeds. What about the number 666?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Well, where in the Old Testament do we see the number 666?
David: I don't know.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: This is your job. [laughing] So yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know.
Seth: Okay, well, what's fascinating, I've been playing you this whole time.
David: You've been playing me? Oh.
Seth: I've given you this image of an infernal trinity. I've introduced to you this infernal priest figure who's garnering worship and demanding people worship this, this beast, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: The place where 666 comes... I've, I, oh, I've also loaded your mind with the phylacteries the priests would wear-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with copies of the law, right?
David: I still don't know where you're going.
Seth: The first place where ... Maybe not the first place, but I think it's the first place 666 is mentioned, is right after Solomon dedicates the temple.
David: Really?
Seth: Yeah. Solomon dedicates the temple, and we get this hint that all is not right in Israel. We're told very specifically in the book of Deuteronomy that kings are not meant to amass much gold and wealth.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: And right after the con-
David: Not become some kind of super beastly empire.
Seth: Right.
David: Ah, man!
Seth: And then we're told right after that, that Solomon amasses 666 talents of gold per year, and this is the wage, this is the revenue of a ungodly king.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the... What's fascinating here then is that we would expect the second beast, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Reading it to be some, like, imperial cult, something that demands allegiance to the beast-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... right? And as part of the beast's empire. But I'm wondering if this image actually makes us think that this actually might be Christians, believers, the Jew- Jewish people-
David: Right. Well-
Seth: ... demanding working in cahoots with a foreign power.
David: Yeah, it sounds like the temple.
Seth: Right, that's exactly right.
David: Oh, is that where you were going? [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah. Oh.
David: It's like-
Seth: It sounds like the temple as it stands.
David: Right, 'cause just after it was built, and then it wedded itself with evil nations-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to increase its own wealth.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so it needed, you know, and so it, it needed to pass away, and now it's happening again.
Seth: Right.
David: And you have the Second Temple wedding itself with Rome-
Seth: Yep
David: ... in order to line its own pockets, and it's going to be destroyed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Ah, dang it!
Seth: So [chuckles]-
David: That's amazing. [laughing]
Seth: So I hope this, for you, our audience, I hope this gives you a picture of how we want to approach the Book of Revelation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is we wanna prioritize Old Testament references-
David: Right
Seth: ... to help us understand what's going on, particularly in the time period leading up to the temple's destruction.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What was happening during, in the lead-up to the temple's destruction was the temple was massively, it was hugely wealthy. Like, there was a lot of money rolling through Jerusalem.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We already know the priests of Jesus's day were murderous.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? We know that-
David: They were- they paid somebody off to-
Seth: Jesus himself-
David: Murder
Seth: ... called them people who drink the blood of the prophets.
David: Oh, goodness.
Seth: And throughout-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the Book of Revelation, we get an image of somebody drinking the blood of Christians who have died.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So as you follow us through the next several episodes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this is how we think we should approach the Book of Revelation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and how we would invite everybody to. It's like-
David: That's good. Yeah, I have two concluding thoughts.
Seth: Yes.
David: One is, I hope what this does for everybody listening and watching is... 'Cause I didn't, I didn't know the 666 connection, right? But given that framework of, hey, if you just told me, "Hey, David, go find out in the, in the Old Testament where it says 666, since you're confused on what it means," I could easily Google 666 in the Old Testament and find it.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Like, what I like about this approach, other than it obviously being the way that John's expecting us to read his book [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, yep
David: ... is that it's easier and more reliable than the way I typically see people trying to translate 666 or interpret the symbols.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause it's just like, it just seems to be circumstantial, and, and it, it seems to be that the person with the best imagination or who's read the most news-
Seth: Right
David: ... ends up getting on the bestseller list.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And it's like, this is just, read your Bible, and you- anybody can do this. It, it-
Seth: Yes
David: ... it takes a l- it just takes a little extra work-
Seth: Right
David: ... to just know your Old Testament, but anybody can do this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I know, I kind of... I don't know, I kind of feel like I was like, "Oh, man, I kind of feel dumb for not knowing the-
Seth: Right
David: ... answer to the 666 question." Uh, so I don't... Uh, maybe other people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... are like, "How did he do that?"
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, I mean, he studied.
Seth: I, I, I, [laughing] um-
David: [laughing] But there's nothing mystical about it, is what I would, I just wanna say.
Seth: No.
David: Is like, this is Revelation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's making something obvious, and so if it's hard and it's mystical, something's wrong.
Seth: Right, and I think keeping in mind the fact that this is written to people suffering-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... under, I think, Roman oppression, but also Jewish persecution.
David: Right.
Seth: And so as a Jewish audience, like, this is written to a Jewish audience.
David: Mm.
Seth: 407, uh-
David: Old Testament illusions. [chuckles]
Seth: Old... This is written to a Jewish audience-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who are being persecuted by their own people, more than li- are very well aware of the way in which the temple has been corrupted-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the way that it's complicit with powers that hurt them as Jewish followers of the true Messiah.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And they're w- stuck wondering, like, "My own brothers-... sons of Abraham with me-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Do not see me. Does God see me?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what does the number 666 communicate to somebody like that? No, no, no, God sees you very, very cle- clearly.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He knows that the current temple establishment is repeating the sins of Solomon, and what happened to Solomon's temple? It was destroyed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And this temple will be destroyed, too. Evil will be banished. There's a better temple in heaven waiting for you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: That's good.
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: Yeah. That kind of leads into my second question, if, if there's anything else you wanna expound on, why is... We, and we really looked at the first three verses.
Seth: Right, [chuckles] right.
David: But why is this, this revelation of Jesus Christ about the things that are soon to take place, why is that good news?
Seth: Ah.
David: We're Spoken Gospel, after all.
Seth: Yeah, um-
David: Why is- why, w- you can even go meta, since we're gonna get in the weeds in the future episodes, why is the Book of Revelation good news? And we've said a few things-
Seth: Right
David: ... but is there anything else you could add?
Seth: Yeah, next week we'll talk about major themes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... moving through the Book of Revelation. The first one we'll talk about is this theme of conquering.
David: Mm.
Seth: The reva- Book of Revelation is good news because it tells us that the worst our enemies can do to us is kill us.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the idea here is that the empires of the world are beastly, they are ghastly, they are enormous. They will kill us, but-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because Jesus rose from the dead, we will, too. Our temple is not built of stones, it exists in the heavenlies, and when we march towards our deaths, we rule with Christ over all the powers of the world. Jesus is sitting on a throne, watching all this beastly stuff happen, and he's o- and you will sit next to him-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... alongside him, him, making his new kingdom come.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the, I, I-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... there's, there's a whole bunch going on, but- [chuckles]
David: Well, I mean, I mean, a simple way to say what you're saying is because Jesus died and rose, we will, too.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, we will win with Jesus-
Seth: Yes
David: ... no matter the beastly forces-
Seth: That's right
David: ... we will win with, with him. Well, that's awesome. I am so excited for the rest of the series. I hope you guys will continue to join us as we walk through the Book of Revelation, looking at some of its main themes, uh, the seven bowls, the seven trumpets, the new heavens, and the new earth. We have a lot of fun stuff to talk about over the next several-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... episodes, so thank you for joining us, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]