Seth: [upbeat music] We conquer when we sacrificially live our lives or lose our lives.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that conquering looks like becoming like Jesus on his throne.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our look at the Book of Revelation. Last time, we kind of did an overview of how to read it, what is apocalyptic literature. If you missed that episode, go back. It's gonna form the basis for a lot of what we're gonna talk about moving forward. But today, we're talking about the major themes in the Book of Revelation, and we're excited to jump in. Seth, how you feeling today?
Seth: I'm ready.
David: Ready.
Seth: I am ready to conquer-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... and to get married. [laughing]
David: [laughing] I thought you were already married.
Seth: Uh, I w- I am-
David: Oh, okay. All right
Seth: ... to Jesus. Um, yeah, I... That was my l-
David: I love it
Seth: ... lame way of-
David: I thought it was wonderful
Seth: ... introducing the main themes. Uh, yeah, we wanna talk about three main themes today.
David: Okay, yep.
Seth: One is the idea of conquering.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, specifically b- conquering by the blood of the lamb and the word of his testimony.
David: Okay.
Seth: The second is just God's throne, the theme of God's throne, and authority, and power.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then the other is the theme of the bride and the theme of the wedding.
David: W- will the bride... Just so I don't step in something-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... will the bride include the woman? That's in-
Seth: The false woman that we talked about last week?
David: Yeah.
Seth: We can talk about that.
David: Oh, okay. I just-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uh, we, we mentioned her last week.
Seth: She- we did. There is a true bride-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... a true woman, and a false woman-
David: Okay
Seth: ... depicted in Revelation.
David: Cool. All right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Sweet. Awesome, okay, so it's gonna be the conquering-
Seth: Yes
David: ... throne, and bride.
Seth: And bride. That's right.
David: Okay, that's what we're gonna talk about today.
Seth: That's right.
David: Why? Why are we talking about themes? Why... Like, why talk about that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when we're approaching the Book of Revelation?
Seth: We-
David: Why is that gonna be helpful for people?
Seth: We tried a whole bunch of different ways to figure out, what's the most helpful way to engage our audience on [chuckles] -
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, the Book of Revelation? And we're like, "Okay, we should do an intro episode like we did last time." But like, if you don't wanna get lost in the weeds when we go deep in the next couple of weeks into the, the three sets of seven bowls, and trumpets, and whatever else-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you can live in the thematic world. And these are really helpful themes that will just, like, give you an overview of some of the ideas that are present in the Book of Revelation, regardless of your viewpoint on-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the historicity or your reading of it in particular.
David: Yes. Okay.
Seth: Everybody agrees on these things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is a kind of a way, another way to say it.
David: I see. So there, there, there should be some unifying things a- across all, uh, vantage points.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, that's helpful.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yep.
Seth: And I think if you miss these points as you go through the Book of Revelation [chuckles], you're really gonna kinda miss some of the, some of what the book is calling us to do.
David: I see. So it's like a... It's a, it's a unifying thing, but it's also a first things first kind of thing.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, let's, let's major on the majors to begin with.
Seth: That's right.
David: And then, I mean, when I think about themes, I'm often... Like, it should help make reading it easier.
Seth: That's right.
David: Because, like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... I remember going and seeing a movie and being, like, kinda confused-
Seth: Okay, yeah
David: ... about what it meant. And then someone was like, "Oh, just look for the theme of heartbreak."
Seth: Right.
David: And it just, like, the whole movie just went together, and I was like, "Oh, I get what this movie is about now."
Seth: I get it.
David: "Thank you."
Seth: Yes.
David: So we're just hoping to kind of put some themes in front of you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that as you notice, conquering because of the throne, all leading up to a wedding, you're like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Oh, I get the story." Because as we said, last time when we were defining apocalyptic literature, we were like, it's, it's bound by a narrative framework.
Seth: That's right. And then just to put it in a story then-
David: Mm
Seth: ... those three theme- themes in a story-
David: Ooh, yeah
Seth: ... is a conquering bride meeting her king.
David: Oh, uh, her king or her husband? Her husbandly king?
Seth: Her husband the king.
David: Okay.
Seth: A conquering bride-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... meeting her husband the king.
David: Oh.
Seth: That's kind of like the, the story.
David: I love that.
Seth: Yeah. [laughing]
David: Okay. Okay, so do we just start with the first on your list?
Seth: Let's start. Yes, we'll start with conquering.
David: Conquering.
Seth: This is probably the most prevalent theme in the book, and it's probably gonna be a little bit different than what you think.
David: Oh.
Seth: So let's start with Revelation chapter one, where this theme is introduced for the very, very first time. In verse five, he says, "To him who loves us..." This is John's introduction to his, his letter to the seven churches that he's writing to, and he says, "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom and priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever. Amen." So this is his opening benediction to his audience, and he's recounting what Jesus has done for them.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's saying, "He's shed his blood for us, and he's made us a kingdom and priests-
David: Mm
Seth: ... unto our God." And this idea of, like, being a part of a kingdom or even ruling in a kingdom and being a priest in that kingdom is something that just goes throughout the entire book.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: And so the first reason why that's important is, in the theme of conquering, is what kind of characters conquer? Kings.
David: Uh, yeah. Okay. [chuckles]
Seth: Kings conquer, right? [chuckles]
David: Yes, right, in the kingdom, kings conquer. Yeah.
Seth: Yes, but... And so I think that's what's on the line here. It's like we have a God who sits on a throne, who rules a kingdom.
David: Oh, sure. Is he, is he gonna win the battle?
Seth: Is he gonna win the battle, and how is he gonna win the battle?
David: Okay. Yep.
Seth: And he has invited us to rule alongside of him, to be kings with him. Uh, we'll get to it in a second, but around his throne are dozens of other thrones that eventually we sit on.
David: Mm.
Seth: He shares his authority with his people. He rules the world, and once those people, once we, sit in those thrones, we are priests to the world.
David: Mm.
Seth: And by our conquering-... in that way, we win.
David: We- okay.
Seth: So is that, is that, is that clear? I, I-
David: I, I understand the idea. Okay, so he's like, "Your kingdom," and immediately that's like, oh, that makes sense 'cause there's other kingdoms that are fighting against us. So I now understand where I am in the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And there's a king who rules that kingdom, and if there's a bunch of kingdoms fighting, who's gonna win?
Seth: That's right.
David: I've drafted you into that kingdom, but in that kingdom, you serve as priests. That's where I get confused.
Seth: Okay.
David: Is what, what does that mean, that we're priests in a kingdom?
Seth: Yeah. Okay, so maybe I'll just borrow Chris- some of Christine, our staff w- writer's words here. It's... There's a sense in which that throughout the Book of Revelation, the people of God, and particularly the people that are being persecuted for God's name, increasingly become like their God and King, Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Jesus is sitting on a throne, and Jesus, by his blood, has, uh, purified his people for himself. And throughout- throughout the Book of Revelation, this idea that we become more and more like Jesus, uh, that we rule like Jesus on a throne like Jesus, but also that our blood does something and purifies the world-
David: Oh, wow
Seth: ... is developed, and particularly, this is how we conquer. So Revelation 12, chapters 10 and 11, says it probably the most clearly, uh, where it says, "And they have conquered him," the Satan-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "uh, by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, because they did not love their lives to death."
David: Mm.
Seth: The people of God, when they act like Jesus in his authority and in his sacrificial death, defeat the powers [chuckles] and cleanse the world, in a sense.
David: Crazy.
Seth: Maybe I'm missing-
David: No.
Seth: Maybe the conquering is too narrow of a term to encompass both of those ideas, but I think they're connected.
David: Yeah, no, I, I see that conquering makes sense, but, like, uh, because priests conquer with blood.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's what a priest does, right?
Seth: That's right.
David: They conquer people's separation, and sin, and guilt-
Seth: That's right
David: ... by blood.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's what they did in the temple.
Seth: That's right.
David: And now that we're priests, the conquering that's gonna take place in this kingdom conflict is gonna happen by the impartation of blood.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But what you're saying is, that blood's gonna be our blood-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because we're gonna become like Jesus, suffering like Jesus.
Seth: That's right.
David: And we're going to conquer not with a giant sword or machine guns, we're gonna conquer-
Seth: Through death
David: ... through death, suffering, humility, servanthood-
Seth: Right
David: ... like Jesus did.
Seth: That's right.
David: That makes sense.
Seth: Okay.
David: I'm on the same page now.
Seth: Yes. Yeah, that was really clear.
David: Okay.
Seth: We conquer by becoming priests-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by acting like priests, and particularly as a Jesus-like priest-
David: Right
Seth: ... a self-sacrificial priest.
David: Right, priests who offer sacrifices-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and that sacrifice is ourselves.
Seth: That's right.
David: Because we're following Jesus.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, the conquering is not what I was expecting, [chuckles] as you said earlier.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, [laughs] that's not what I expected.
Seth: And so that is hinted at-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in those words, "a kingdom and priests to our God."
David: Right, 'cause it could be like a kingdom with soldiers.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh-
David: Oh, that's not the army he built. He did not build a kingdom with an army of soldiers.
Seth: No.
David: But a kingdom with an army of priests.
Seth: Um, that's right.
David: So that's great.
Seth: And so that theme is developed throughout the first two chapters.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the first two chapters is John's letter to seven particular churches-
David: Right
Seth: ... that exist in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey. This theme is developed through the first three chapters of the Book of Revelation. John writes to, uh, seven particular churches-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and he's encouraging them to persevere in their faith-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in one way or another. And he ends his seven letters to these seven churches with the same phrase.
David: Every time.
Seth: Every single time.
David: Okay.
Seth: Here's what he says to the church in Ephesus: "To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is the paradise of God."
David: Mm.
Seth: To the church in Smyrna, he says, "To the one who conquers, they will not be hurt by the second death." The church to Pergamum, he says, "To the one who conquers, I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone." And this, this continues. He says the same thing to the church in Thyatira. He says, uh... This one's a fun one. I like this one a lot: "To the one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him authority over the nations."
David: Mm.
Seth: So I, I told you, like, this idea of conquering is like ruling with Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's present right here, "and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as if pots are broken. Um, and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." This is a, this is just a fun one for me because it's a really stark image of the authority-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that comes on the other side of conquering. "To the one who conquers will be given an authority like that of Jesus himself." These are all images used to describe Jesus. They'll be given the authority of Jesus himself.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, to the church in Sardis, he says, "To the one who conquers will be clothed in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life." To the church of Philadelphia, he says, "To the one who conquers, I'll make him a pillar in the temple of our God."
David: Mm.
Seth: And then to the church in Laodicea, he says, "To the one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne-
David: Oh, there it is
Seth: ... as I also conquered and sat down on my Father's throne."
David: Ah, and how did Jesus conquer? [chuckles]
Seth: He conquered through death.
David: Yes. [chuckles]
Seth: So there's-
David: Crazy
Seth: ... there's a, there's a lot of, like, pretty heavy stuff going on here, just th- like, even just-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, uh, getting out of the theme of conquering.
David: Oh, totally, 'cause, I mean, I feel like I've heard these preached.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, "Conquer!" Like, oh, like, okay-
Seth: Yes
David: ... overcome-
Seth: That's right
David: ... overtake. Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uh, and I- and not suffer, die, spill your blood.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. Most of these churches are in some pretty dire peril.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: All of these churches are in some sort of peril. Two of the churches are either being killed or imprisoned-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and they're bearing up under that persecution. And he, he says, "While you're suffering, you're conquering,"-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to those churches. And to the churches who are giving in to the pressures of their day, he says, "Your, your command is to conquer by-... acting like Jesus.
David: By resisting the pur- like, the assimilation? Or like, what's, what's-
Seth: Uh, yeah, by will- being willing to die.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, I mean, there-
David: Being willing to die for your faith.
Seth: That's right. There is a... I mean, and I think, like, resisting the assimilation, there is an element of sacrifice and loss there.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We could oversimplify martyrdom-
David: Sure
Seth: ... to mean only death.
David: Right.
Seth: But there is a real sense that death is on the line throughout the majority-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... of the Book of Revelation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the idea here is we conquer when we sacrificially live our lives or lose our lives.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that conquering looks like becoming like Jesus on his throne.
David: I see. So, or, is that, that's what comes on the other side of conquer?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right. Yes, yes, yes.
David: Conquering is being faithful to Jesus and becoming more like Jesus, even to the point of suffering like Jesus.
Seth: Yeah, that-
David: Is that what conquering is?
Seth: Yes!
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes. The idea is we look like Jesus on the other side of conquering, and conquering means dying.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And once we are faithful to die, Jesus promises to make us look like him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, we will be written in the Lamb's Book of Life forever. We will sit on his throne. We will b- eat of the hidden manna-
David: Right
Seth: ... and be satisfied-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like the Israelites were in the wilderness. When we are willing to die, we are rewarded by looking more like Jesus, who is now currently sitting on the throne.
David: And the point of this t- of these letters to a persecuted church, like we said in the last episode, is... You know, the whole book is to give hope.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so th- this isn't, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, and correct me if I'm wrong-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this isn't like, "Hey, you lazy, complacent Christians, go out there and die, or you're not gonna go to heaven," is kind of, I think like-
Seth: Right
David: ... what my legalistic brain wants to just jump to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We have to remember the situation, that these people were under threat. They were being tempted to walk away from their faith-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because of, like, threats against their life or their families or their way of life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And to overcome, right, was to hold fast to Jesus, no matter the cost.
Seth: That's right.
David: And the, the reason why there's hope is 'cause like, look what's on the other side of overcoming. There's, you know, all these things. You're gonna be a pillar in the temple. You're gonna eat the hidden manna. You're gonna rule with me on my throne. And so the hope is that the- that death isn't the end.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That suffering is not the end.
Seth: And not just not the end, not just the promise of eternal life, the promise of authority-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the heavens, to sit on God's right hand. So that's more than just eternal life, right?
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes. What... Like, what does that mean, and why is that good news?
Seth: This is what the whole book of Revelation is about, I think.
David: Okay.
Seth: It is unpacking this idea. 'Cause this is a super counterintuitive idea.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I conquer when I die, and then I'm rewarded with eternal life. Okay, great.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I get that. But I'm also rewarded with authority and a place on God's throne.
David: Right, to rule with him.
Seth: To rule. What, what does that mean?
David: Right.
Seth: What... And to the point that this is an apocalypse, a revelation, an unveiling.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What does martyrdom mean?
David: Mm.
Seth: What's the significance of why p- be persecuted for the faith? Take the veil off me, off of this for me, John.
David: Yeah, why is it worth it to keep suffering?
Seth: Why is it worth it to keep suffering?
David: Unhide it. [chuckles]
Seth: That's right.
David: Right.
Seth: That's right. And the, the first thing he does is he proves that, well, when we suffer and we die, we're risen to a throne, just like our, our Savior Jesus was.
David: Right.
Seth: And so-
David: That's what happened to Jesus
Seth: ... in chapters four and five, he... This happens explicitly, right? I believe chapters four and five is this depiction of what happens after Jesus ascends into the heavens. You have this huge heavenly throne room scene with a figure like God sitting on a throne, and all of a sudden, there's this announcement: "Behold, weep no more. There's a lion coming from the tribe of Judah. Someone from the root of Jesse has conquered by dying-
David: Yep
Seth: ... so that he can open the scroll," which we'll talk about the scroll later. And then after this announcement of the Lion of Judah, John looks up, and he sees a lamb standing as though it had been slain.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he goes up to the person on the throne and takes this symbol of this, this throne dweller's authority as... Because he's now shares the authority with-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God on his throne, right? So the pattern is set in Jesus's own death and resurrection-
David: Right, yep
Seth: ... that when you die, specifically dying for the sake of others, sacrificing yourself as a priest-
David: As a priest, yep
Seth: ... you are elevated into the heavens, and then you are given a position of authority in the heavens, so that's symbolized-
David: And Jesus himself is the rubric.
Seth: And Jesus himself is the rubric for that-
David: Okay
Seth: ... right?
David: Got it.
Seth: And so he's given a scroll, uh, in this story, which represents God's authority over the world, okay?
David: Can I just stop for a second-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and note two things that people might be thinking right now, that I'm thinking right now on-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, how dare you?
Seth: Okay, please. [chuckles]
David: With this interpretation, which I don't know if it's an interpretation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It just seems very clear that-
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... So it's, like, more like how dare you, Revelation, to my own [chuckles] old interpretations of things. But it's like, one, um, that right's reserved for Jesus alone, right? You know, to-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to-
Seth: That's right
David: ... die and suffer and be raised. That was his purview. And then two, every time I hear about the thrones in Revelation, it's, oh, they're casting their crowns, and they're getting off their thrones-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they're... W- aren't we supposed to def- deflect authority and-
Seth: So
David: ... uh, right?
Seth: I... This makes, makes me just want to go verse by verse through this [chuckles] whole document.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, but so you're right. The opening chapter of, of the... In four and five, we have all these thrones filled with these giant beings, and they get off their thrones, throw their crowns, bow before Jesus.
David: Right, and I've always heard that, like, if the elders bow, if the heavenly creatures bow, how much more humble and humiliated should you be?
Seth: Let me... [exhales]
David: Just do it. Just do it, 'cause I-
Seth: So-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the elders-
David: I wanna know
Seth: ... get, the, these creatures get off their throne in chapter four-
David: Right
Seth: ... and chapter five, and nobody ever sits on those thrones again.
David: ... okay,
Seth: Until-
David: Dun, dun, dun!
Seth: Uh, Revelation chapter 20.
David: Oh, my gosh.
Seth: "When those who have been beheaded-
David: Mm.
Seth: -sit in them instead. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, those who had not worshiped the beast and its image."
David: So the elders and the heavenly creatures who occupied the thrones around God get off their thrones to make way for Christians who suffer, die, and rise?
Seth: That's right.
David: That's awesome. [laughing]
Seth: Isn't that awesome? It's an awesome little detail, and so it's s- so easy to miss because it's like, oh, the angels get off their thrones, and we forget about the throne. So this is a narrative-
David: Yep
Seth: ... this is apocalyptic literature.
David: Right.
Seth: Someone has to sit next to God and rule alongside him, and who is it going to be? Those who are willing to suffer and die-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like Jesus did-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the world.
David: Wow! Okay, so I, I wanna make, I think, an, the right observation-
Seth: Okay
David: ... about why.
Seth: Yep.
David: And then I have a question.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because it's like, y- did you earn that spot, or are those thrones are reserved for suffering people, or whatever? And I'm just remembering... Those are the questions I was asking.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: I think I answered my own question. See if I'm right, is we talked about, like, the Revelation kind of follows wisdom literature.
Seth: Okay.
David: And God ha- has built a way to be human in the world and has revealed that to us through His Word and through His actions. And the way to be human in the world is not to conquer, and climb, and have authority and rule, but to go low, to serve, to love, and to have compassion on-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... especially the least of these.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's those who do those things who are ruling because they're being like God in the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Having authority here on Earth is actually doing the lowly thing.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And so he's unveiling, unhiding, taking the cover off-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to show what servants and martyrs actually are. They're, they're being God in the world.
Seth: That's right.
David: They're being true humans, the way God designed them to be in the world. And so when they come into the heavenly picture of their reality-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they're given a throne because they're ruling like God wanted the world to be ruled.
Seth: That's right.
David: 'Cause they're humble.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that what's happening here?
Seth: I think that is what's happening. I think there is like... We, we talked about last week how this is like the establishment of a new world order-
David: Right
Seth: ... too.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so I think there is this like, this is who humans were always meant to be.
David: Right, 'cause right now, it- yeah.
Seth: Those who rule alongside God at the garden. This is-
David: In beastly empires, uh, the bloodthirsty get the thrones.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, this is the way that humans have always meant to be. This is them occupying their rightful place. But this is also really the establishment of a world order based on the self-sacrifice of a priestly people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? So, like, until Jesus came, there was no one in heaven who had died-
David: Right
Seth: ... and had been qualified because of his sacrificial death to lead his people.
David: Right. Who's worthy? Who can do this stuff?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Right.
Seth: And so as great as God is and as glorious as the angels are, none of them have died for us until God came flesh in Jesus and died for us through Him.
David: Right, and now He invites us into that narrative.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so we rule in this new world order, there's a sacrificed King who sits on the throne.
David: Okay.
Seth: And those who are- sacrifice their lives, who are willing to die to themselves, will reign with Him.
David: That's beautiful. So my other question then, I think, uh, that makes a ton of sense to me, 'cause I think that debunks the whole, like, "Okay, so you have to be worthy of it, or you have to earn it, or..." It's, it's-
Seth: Right
David: ... no, it's- 'cause-
Seth: I mean, it's the, it's the lowest bar to being a Christian is to, is to die. It's, [laughing] well, that's what Jesus said-
David: Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah
Seth: ... "You have to pick up your cross to follow me."
David: That's right. Uh-
Seth: "You have to be willing to lose your life in order to find it." That's the lowest bar.
David: That's the, that's the- [laughing]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... barrier of entry. Yeah.
Seth: [laughing] Right. As death is the barrier of entry. [laughing]
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so then w- if that's the case, and the humble rule with Jesus, what does it mean to rule with Jesus?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Like, how... Does Revelation paint that picture, or do we have to infer from other things?
Seth: [exhales] Yes.
David: But, like, why is that the, the hope held out before a suffering people? What hope- like, what is it about doing that that would-
Seth: Right
David: ... help me persevere through suffering?
Seth: Yeah. So let's- we're gonna have to narrow our focus here to not just the general call to die-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but the specific action of spilling your blood-
David: Martyrdom
Seth: ... for the name of Jesus. Martyrdom.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: What good is a martyr's blood? If my brother died-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for his faith, what good does that do? John, unveil the purpose of that blood.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Revelation chapter 6-
David: Okay
Seth: ... verse 9. This is in the middle of a, a, a sequence about seals-
David: Which we'll talk more about
Seth: ... uh, which we'll talk more about. But John sees under the altar, presumably a sacrificial altar, "The souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. And they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'" So the question you asked was: How do we conquer? What does it look like to rule? What is the purpose of a martyr's blood?
David: Yeah.
Seth: A martyr's blood, in one sense, is the agent of God's vengeance.
David: Oh-
Seth: It-
David: ... it's what He avenges.
Seth: It's what He avenges.
David: I see.
Seth: It's the catalyst for God's action in the world.
David: Interesting. Yeah, I think the only category I ever had for God's vengeful activity at the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... end of time is sin.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, He has this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you've, you've infracted, you know, a, a set of standards, and God burns with judgment against those infractions.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which I'm not saying has to be untrue-
Seth: No, no, no
David: ... but this is a, a different category.
Seth: It's a different category.
David: It is.
Seth: God will-
David: Yeah, He wants to avenge the blood of His saints.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And this hap- this is on page two of the Bible, uh, when Abel's blood cries out for the ground for vengeance.
David: Mm.
Seth: There's this theme running all the way back to the Book of Genesis, where-... true and faithful people of God are killed for their faithfulness.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the question is immediately, what will God do to avenge the blood of those who have been faithful?
David: Right.
Seth: And in the Book of Genesis, the blood is the way in which Cain is judged.
David: Mm.
Seth: It cries out from the ground-
David: Right
Seth: ... and because it cries out from the ground, Cain's ground is cursed.
David: Right, yep.
Seth: So, right?
David: The same thing's happening here.
Seth: The same thing's happening.
David: The blood of the martyrs is crying out for justice, and God says, "I will respond by cursing-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the people who caused it."
Seth: Right, and there's this e- sense that it's like, okay, God will judge by His own initiative.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Okay, I hear your blood crying out, and I will avenge," but there's also a sense in which that the death of the martyrs, the blood of the martyrs, is a judgment in and of itself.
David: Mm.
Seth: So read chapter eight with me.
David: Okay.
Seth: In the, this- the scene before, we've been introduced to the total number of martyrs that will ever die [chuckles]
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, we've been... And then when the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was a silence in heaven for about half an hour, and then I saw the seven angels who stand before God given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. So what are the prayers of the saints? What's the prayer of the saints? We just read.
David: Oh, to avenge us. How long is it gonna be until you avenge our blood?
Seth: That's right. That's the prayer of the saints, and then the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints rose before God, and then the angel took the censer of prayers and then poured it out on the earth.
David: Okay.
Seth: The prayers of God's saints crying out for vengeance is then poured out on the earth in another series of judgments.
David: I see.
Seth: The blood of the saints is being poured out on the earth, and as it's poured out on the earth, a new wave of judgments comes on the earth, and this next one is... They are called trumpet judgments. And what's fascinating is throughout the whole trumpet judgment section is there's this hope of repentance for the unbelieving people who are experiencing it.
David: Mm.
Seth: The blood of the martyrs are being poured out in hopes of cleansing the world of its evil and inviting new people of God in.
David: Yes, which is what Jesus did.
Seth: Which is what Jesus did, [chuckles] right?
David: That's very good.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: Yeah, amazing.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah, 'cause it's like you, you think about the prayers of the martyrs being spilled, and if you only think about chapter six, is that what we read last? Uh-
Seth: Yeah.
David: Was it? Yeah.
Seth: Yes, eight.
David: Yeah, uh, and it's like, all the prayers are imprecatory psalms, you know?
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: It's like, "Dash them against the rocks, and avenge my blood!"
Seth: Mm.
David: But, like, that's actually not the model we have for martyr prayers in the New Testament.
Seth: Okay.
David: You have, "Forgive them" prayers-
Seth: Right
David: ... are the last things that they say.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so when the prayers of the martyrs are poured out onto the world, it actually is this testimony of salvation-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and this priestly act of substitution and intercession that martyrs have been doing for hundreds of years-
Seth: Right
David: ... up to this point. So it's just... That's amazing.
Seth: And it's also what priests have done.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, we talked about how conquering has this priest- not just a kingly element of sitting on a throne, but a priestly element. We're talking about that priestly element here.
David: Mm.
Seth: Priests would pour out the contents of bowls, sprinkle people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with blood from bowls, in hopes of what? Purifying them.
David: Right.
Seth: Cleansing them, and so in Revelation, it's saying, "Okay, you are a kingdom of priests. You have been given the authority of Christ, and you are priests in this heavenly realm, and if you die by your own blood, what does that blood accomplish if you've died like Christ and sit in a position of authority like Christ on the Earth?"
David: It calls out God's vengeance against your enemies and fills up a censer of prayers to intercede and save God's enemies.
Seth: Yeah, like, and-
David: Both
Seth: ... and it's like, and, I mean, very simply, to purify the world.
David: Ah.
Seth: There's a real sense that in the same way that Jesus's blood purified our sins-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when we are willing to suffer and die, we purify those who watch our death.
David: Yes, and if this sounds really weird to people, y- just think about this: that when the incense in the temple, in Israel's temple, was burning, it would move around the temple, and the smoke was purifying-
Seth: Oh yeah, that's right
David: ... the space.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's what it does.
Seth: That's what it does.
David: It's, it's function. You're not... We're not, like, putting-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... ideas in it. That's its job.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, so, like, that's what incense smoke does in the temple, and so in the temple world, like we talked about in the last episode, if the, if the martyrs' prayers are the incense, then the only thing that they're there to do is to purify.
Seth: Right.
David: Which is just fascinating to think about Jesus when he says, "Forgive them, Father. They know not what they do."
Seth: Right.
David: That is what the prayer of a martyr sounds like.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's an incense prayer of purification-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and forgiveness.
Seth: Yeah, and I think if you look, like, even, like, let's get out of scripture for a second, and, like, when people have died throughout church history-
David: Mm
Seth: ... what has that done?
David: Oh, it's unlocked, um, revivals.
Seth: Re- [chuckles] Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah, for those who, like, hated them.
Seth: Right, it's, it does, it both provokes pr- more persecution-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and it unlocks people to follow the way of Jesus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... after they see this.
David: It's why in, like, so many movies you'll hear the phrase, "We don't wanna make a martyr out of him."
Seth: Right.
David: Why? Because martyrs create revolutions. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like- [chuckles]
Seth: Yes
David: ... and that's what the blood of those who are willing to die for Jesus do. They bring more people to God.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So if you are a, somebody reading the Book of Revelation in the first century, and you've watched your wife die-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or your brother be imprisoned-
David: Here's how you know it's not pointless.
Seth: Ho- yeah, it's like their blood right now is being poured out on Earth for a future harvest-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of God's people and the vengeance of God against evil.
David: Wow.
Seth: Like, and it's not just-... accidental.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's an active agent in the world right now, enacting justice and purifying the world of evil.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like-
David: That's what God does from his throne.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes, that's cool. Relate that then to me to the question that I asked that, that unlocked all this, which is how does that tie in to ruling from a throne?
Seth: Yes, because at the very end, we s- said at the very end, those thrones are emptied-
David: Right
Seth: ... and humans take their place, right?
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: It's a good question. I, I don't know if I thought about it in those terms.
David: Or how I asked the question earlier was like, what is the hope of reigning with God? What does that mean? Like, why is it good news that there's a throne for a martyr in heaven?
Seth: It might go back to what you've been saying for a while now-
David: Mm
Seth: ... about the purpose of apocalyptic literature, is to like... It's a riff on the way the world is supposed to be-
David: Right
Seth: ... and it's an unveiling of the way the world's broken, and it needs to be restored to God's original intention for the world. God's original intention for the world was to rule with humanity.
David: That's right.
Seth: Adam-
David: Adam and Eve are pictured as kings- a king and a queen.
Seth: As a king and a queen over humanity, ruling with God, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: The reason why this is good news is because through your death, like Jesus's death, you are restored to your Adamic and Evenic [chuckles] purposes.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Like, you become truly human-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when you die to yourself in faithfulness to Jesus, proclaiming Him as you do so, right?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, like there's a restoration to our, to our true humanity in, in dying.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, so I think that's one reason why it's good news.
David: Right. That command that we had to have dominion over the Earth back in the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Right
David: ... is given to us in a way that we won't spoil it again.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then I think it's also just, like, practically good news-
David: Mm
Seth: ... on, like, does my death matter?
David: Mm.
Seth: Yes, eternally so! Your death is the means by which God is purifying the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Your death is the means by which evil is being judged.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Now my death isn't simply a death-
David: It, yeah
Seth: ... it's doing something actively in the world.
David: Right, it is the way by which and the means by which God is ruling and reigning.
Seth: Yes.
David: My blood sits on a throne.
Seth: Yes.
David: It accomplishes decrees on the Earth.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's, it's how God's kingdom is run.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm, I'm starting to fill it in.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Okay. Okay, thrones, overcoming, ruling.
Seth: [laughing]
David: We, we've laid it all out. Is there anything else in this theme that we need to, to talk about-
Seth: I mean-
David: ... before moving to the next one?
Seth: I think we've covered the main ideas here, but I'll- well, let's give one more image-
David: Right
Seth: ... from the Book of Revelation that talks about the, that idea. In chapters 14 and 15, and, uh, 14 through 17, really-
David: Okay
Seth: ... we are given another picture of the martyr's blood, and we're given a picture of this woman. She's a, she's a prostitute, a harlot, and she is drinking the blood of the martyrs.
David: Mm.
Seth: And what's interesting is, as she's drinking the blood of the martyrs, she gets drunk, and her drunkenness causes her own downfall.
David: Okay.
Seth: So it goes back to this idea that when powers drink and persecute Christians, they are also drinking their own destruction.
David: Right.
Seth: They're actively imbibing in something that will eventually intoxicate them and kill them.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there is something super subversive. Like, it's like we don't wanna make a martyr out of them. It is like, no, this is how empires fall.
David: Right. As soon as an empire, no matter how great, kills a martyr, they've sealed their own destruction [chuckles]-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in a sense, right?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Okay. [gentle music] I can definitely say I think you've done a really good job of helping me understand how this is good news for somebody reading this in the first century.
Seth: Ah, yeah.
David: My brother died for Jesus's name. Why is that good news? It's like, oh, my gosh, because it's going to inevitably bring God's vengeance against your enemies.
Seth: Mm.
David: It also is gonna be poured out as a way to save and purify the world.
Seth: And right now, it's making the empires drunk-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they are stumbling and falling.
David: And your brother isn't just dead, he's ruling and reigning with Jesus.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, great. I'm full of hope now and ready to follow my brother into death. What about us today?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why is this good news for us today?
Seth: Well, I would say, like, if you're living in a country that's per- I mean, this is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you've, you know why this is good news-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... because you've-
David: You're living it
Seth: ... watched that happen to your own family.
David: Right.
Seth: So the qu- the question is, like, okay... I think it goes back to what we kind of hinted at before. Like, the minimum bar to enter the [chuckles] the Christian faith is dying.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: Nobody becomes a Christian and does not sacrifice.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's not an insignificant sacrifice to say no to all other desires and powers in order to follow Jesus wholeheartedly. That is an epic death.
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, choosing not to follow my own heart, but to follow the will and commands of a king is uncomfortable [laughing] at best-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... humiliating at worst, uh, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, and like, but that is what God is calling us to come and do, to die to our own desires, to die to the desires of our own heart, and follow Him into a life of self-sacrifice and potentially to our own deaths.
David: Right. I c- I can see two pieces of really good news there. One is you now have more ammunition to wage against the things that are in your way to dying to self.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, I always need more-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... just, like, reasons of hope.... of why it's worth it to kill this thing God's asking me to kill, or to die to this thing God asked me to die to, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: To lay down my preferences and my desires, my comfort, how other people perceive me, to live as Jesus in the world causes death on a daily basis [chuckles]-
Seth: Yes
David: ... for myself, and knowing what that accomplishes in the heavens and on the earth j- is just helpful.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So it's good news that I have more ammunition.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then, um, it's also just good news because I know that no matter what I sacrifice, look at the result.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, [chuckles] I mean, there's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... nothing I'm gonna give up that is not going to be restored, like, just in such a magnificent way. I think also, like, from, like, a different vantage point, I'm like, my goal in life is to reach people with the gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I just want people to know the gospel, and that's why we are sitting here right now.
Seth: Right.
David: But it's amazing to think that actually dying like Jesus, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... denial of self, following him, letting him be your teacher and your rabbi, and living that way in front of people every day, no matter what it costs, fills up a bowl of purification incense. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so it's like actually the way to reach the world isn't by having a really popular podcast.
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: Right, right.
David: That would be like an empire way of doing things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's actually by just dying to yourself, and God can use that in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... multiplicative ways.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's really good news, too.
Seth: And I think it puts a little bit of color for me on, like, Jesus is resurrected and reigning in the heavens.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that's great news for him. [laughing] But Revelation actually tells me how I join him now-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in a way that I don't think I've fully appreciated before. It's like, no, your acts of self-sacrifice aren't just humiliating in the moment.
David: Ah.
Seth: They're actually accomplishing-
David: Right. They're putting you right there next to Jesus on his throne.
Seth: [chuckles] They're putting... They are. They're... Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And through your humility, whatever injustice you see is being actively dealt with-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and if not actively dealt with, repented of.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, right, and like, yeah.
David: Right, your pure- yeah, your acts of self-sacrifice are purifying the people around you.
Seth: Right, yeah. Uh, it's- there's just an activeness to that reigning that I, uh, that I-
David: Yes
Seth: ... haven't really expe- like, it's great news for Jesus that he's sitting on a throne.
David: Yes.
Seth: But, like, oh, I get what his resurrection proves to me.
David: Mm.
Seth: My own acts of self-sacrifice are actually have, like, an atoning work in the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They execute judgment and invite purification.
David: Right.
Seth: Right, yeah.
David: I think the other bit of good news is, why is it good news that Jesus and his martyrs are on thrones?
Seth: Why?
David: Is because the world is ruled by the humblest people.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: There's a sovereignty at work in the world, a wisdom and an ordering at work in the world, that is being orchestrated and designed by the most qualified people because they're humble, self-sacrificial, loving, compassionate, willing to lay down their lives for others. Who would you rather order the world? Like, that's who I want in charge, and that's who is in charge.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, uh, oh, and then the other thing was, like-
Seth: That's like... I mean, that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Matthew 5.
David: Right!
Seth: The humble will inherit the earth.
David: Exactly.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then it's just, it's also just like, man, if I... I- I'm kind of riffing on the last thing I said, but it's just such good news, is if you wanna have authority in the world, if you wanna have an impact on the world around you, the way to do that is not by getting a ton of subscribers on TikTok, [chuckles] right?
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah.
David: It's not climbing the political ladder.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's not getting the corner office. It's not having the loudest voice in the room, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It is, you will sit on thrones when you look like Jesus, when you humble yourself-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when you take the last place.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, you're in- integrating yourself into the wisdom of the universe. And so I just like, that's really good news-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is everybody has access to authority.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But you have to go it, through Jesus's way.
Seth: And I think the other thing that, that's, this goes back to something we said at the very beginning and that Christine keeps t- telling me. It's like we are becoming more like Jesus. We're not just acting like him-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we're becoming more in his image.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're, we're looking actively, not just acting like him, but looking like him. He sits on a throne, we sit on a throne.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: His work atones and purifies, our work begins to do the same thing. We are co-heirs-
David: Right
Seth: ... with Christ. We are looking like him.
David: Yeah, which is crazy.
Seth: Which is crazy.
David: Well, okay, we overindulged on conquest and conquering and thrones, so we'll have to pick up the other themes-
Seth: Ah
David: ... in another episode. [chuckles]
Seth: In another episode. That sounds great.
David: So what's, what's left? We've got, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for the next episode, we've got-
Seth: Thrones.
David: Oh, we did, did we do thrones?
Seth: Well, there is an element of God's power on thrones-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... like his control of things-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... side of things. So we've talked about the way that we sit on the throne.
David: Yes.
Seth: But at the very beginning, we're told that God sits on his own throne-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and he never leaves.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Uh, so what does that mean for us?
David: We gotta talk about that.
Seth: Uh-
David: And then we also have the, the woman, the bride.
Seth: The woman, the bride.
David: Okay, we'll talk about those in the next episode. Thank you, guys, for joining us at this look in Revelation. We'll see you next time to talk about God's throne and the bride. See you then. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
