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Romans Overview: A New Humanity

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Seth and David talk about what it means to be God's heirs, to have the Spirit, to be adopted, and to be free.

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Romans 5–8: The Blessings of a New Humanity in Jesus Christ

Show Notes

In this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, hosts David Dorn and Seth Stewart continue their journey through Paul's letter to the Romans. Having covered the historical setting, purpose, and argument of Romans 1–4 in previous episodes, this discussion examines chapters 5 through 8, where Paul unpacks the benefits available to all who have been incorporated into God's family through faith in Jesus.

The Covenant Blessings Extended to All Nations

Paul begins this section of Romans by cataloging the blessings available to those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. These include justification by faith, peace with God, access into a realm of grace, the hope of glory, and the ability to rejoice even in suffering. What makes this list particularly significant is the way Paul frames these blessings in Old Testament terms. Concepts like sonship, inheritance, and restoration echo the promises God made to Israel throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.

This language reveals Paul's larger argument: the goodness of the covenant and relationship God established with the Jewish people is now being broadened to include Gentiles. The phrase from Paul's thesis statement, "to the Jew first and then also to the Gentile," shapes everything in this section. The blessings that Israel hoped for—being counted righteous, having peace with God through sacrifice, anticipating God's glorious Kingdom—are now available to all people through Jesus. Paul is not replacing Israel's story but fulfilling it by inviting every nation into its promises.

Peace, Grace, and the Hope of Glory

The benefits Paul lists at the opening of chapter 5 deserve careful attention. Justification, he explains, is more than returning to a neutral standing with God. Through the resurrection of Jesus, believers are not merely forgiven but made righteous, holy, and accepted. The analogy of debt helps clarify this: humanity did not simply have its debt cancelled to reach zero, but was given a credit—an active, working relationship with God that produces life and fruitfulness in the world.

Peace with God similarly goes beyond the cessation of hostility. Paul uses the language of reconciliation to describe how those who were once enemies are now brought into active partnership with God. In the Roman context, this would have carried special weight. While Caesar claimed to bring the Pax Romana through military subjugation, Jesus brings a true peace rooted in reconciliation, shalom, and justice extending to all nations. Grace, too, is not merely forgiveness but an ongoing realm in which believers stand. In this space, God disposes himself to give what is asked and what is undeserved—including the power to obey his commands. The hope of glory refers to the coming revelation of God's Kingdom, when his saving power will finally subjugate all sin and death. This is the apocalyptic hope that Habakkuk clung to during exile, and it now belongs to all who trust in Jesus.

Adam, Jesus, and the Two Humanities

Paul widens the aperture of his argument by moving beyond Abraham to Adam. While Jewish identity centered on descent from Abraham, Paul points out that all humanity shares a common ancestor who introduced sin and death into the world. The dividing line is not between Abraham's children and everyone else, but between those who remain in Adam and those who have been transferred into Jesus. Adam, whose name means humanity, represented all people when he disobeyed God's command and subjected the human race to death.

Jesus functions as a new Adam—a new head of humanity who entered death, rose victorious, and now offers life to all who place their faith in him. This framing allows Paul to include both Jews and Gentiles in the same problem and the same solution. The law, Paul argues, did not solve the problem of sin and death, because death reigned from Adam to Moses—long before the law was given. What the law did was increase human culpability by making sin more evident. Yet where sin increased, grace abounded all the more. At the very moment when both Gentile culture and Jewish religious leadership had reached their lowest point—culminating in the crucifixion of God's own Son—God chose to bring salvation to all humanity.

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

Paul anticipates a dangerous misunderstanding of his argument. If grace increases where sin abounds, should believers continue sinning to magnify God's grace? His answer is emphatic: those who have been baptized into Jesus's death have been raised to newness of life. The old self—the Adamic human who compulsively brought death into the world—has been crucified. A new self has emerged, one whose fundamental disposition is toward righteousness and life.

Baptism serves as the demonstration of this transfer. Going under the water pictures death to the old humanity; rising from the water pictures resurrection into the new humanity under Jesus. This is not merely a change of behavior but a change of nature. The master has changed. Where sin once exercised dominion and compelled disobedience, believers are now under the lordship of Jesus and compelled toward righteousness. Paul is not suggesting that Christians never sin, but that their fundamental orientation has shifted. They are no longer slaves to sin but slaves to God, and their disposition now inclines toward producing life and fruitfulness rather than death and destruction.

Freedom from the Law Through a New Covenant

Speaking directly to those who know the law, Paul addresses the lingering question of how Jewish believers should relate to Torah observance. Using the legal principle that covenants are binding only as long as both parties live, Paul explains that believers have died to the law through their union with Christ. Just as a widow is free to remarry after her husband's death, so believers are free from their former covenant relationship with the law and are now bound to Jesus.

This does not mean the law was sinful or that God's commands were bad. Rather, sin used the law as an instrument to produce death. Paul describes the psychological experience of trying to achieve righteousness through law-keeping: the desire to do good, the inability to accomplish it, and the resulting wretchedness. The law could reveal sin but could not defeat it. This pattern stretches back to the garden, where the serpent used God's command not to eat from the tree as the very occasion to provoke disobedience. More laws never made better people; they simply gave sin more ammunition. What Israel needed was not renewed focus on Torah but the promised new covenant, in which God's Spirit would write his commands on human hearts and empower obedience from within.

No Condemnation, Inheritance, and Unshakeable Love

Chapter 8 opens with what may be the most celebrated declaration in all of Paul's letters: there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The law of the Spirit of life has set believers free from the law of sin and death. What the law could not do because of human weakness, God has accomplished by sending his own Son. Sin has been condemned in the flesh so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit—the very fulfillment of Jeremiah's new covenant prophecy.

Believers have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, making them heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ. This inheritance language echoes Israel's hope of possessing the land and the Kingdom of God. Now Jews and Gentiles together receive this promise through faith. The section closes with Paul addressing the reality of suffering. Those conformed to the image of Christ follow the pattern of his death and resurrection—suffering now, glory later. This has been God's plan from eternity past, and nothing can separate believers from his love. Neither tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, nor sword can sever this bond. In all these things, those who trust in Jesus are more than conquerors through him who loved them. The promises are guaranteed not only by Jesus's resurrection but by the eternal purposes of God, who foreknew and predestined his people for glory. Yet this triumphant conclusion raises a difficult question: if these promises are so certain, what about ethnic Israel—those Jews who have not believed in Jesus? That question will be the focus of the next section of Romans.

Transcript

Seth: [mellow music] And so what Paul does here, he says, "So this is actually more fundamental than simply the restoration and the accomplishment of what God promised to Abraham."

David: Mm.

Seth: "This is what God intended for humanity-

David: Yes

Seth: ... from the very beginning."

David: This isn't Israeli, this is global. [mellow music]

Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everybody to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We're continuing our journey through the Book of Romans. We have introduced the book, looking at its historical setting, its purpose, the audience that Paul is writing to, and now we've traced the argument, the, the logic of Paul from chapter one all the way through chapter four. And in this episode, we're gonna try to look at chapters five through chapters eight, and to tell us everything we've done so far in eloquent form-

Seth: Oh. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Is-

Seth: Oh

David: ... is our good friend, Seth Stewart.

Seth: Yeah. We set up in the fir- the first two chapters of Paul's argument is that, hey, all of humanity, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, is under the rule of sin and the power of death, and God's justice against those things, all of us equally. And equally, Jewish people and non-Jewish people are rescued out of the kingdom of death and sin by Jesus Christ, our new king, who has defeated death and sin through his death and resurrection, and who has solved the problem of God's justice by being the just sacrifice in our place. Now, since then, we have been saved from God's justice, so we've been transferred out of that kingdom. What next? What do we get now that Jew and Gentile are together by faith-

David: Mm

Seth: ... in this new kingdom under Jesus Christ?

David: Yeah. I mean, it, it kind of reminds me of, if you'll excuse this little foray here, but it does remind me of like the, the Torah, the law-

Seth: Okay

David: ... where you have the, these, these lists of, like, laws, and the, the story of how Abraham and his people became God's chosen family, and then here's how you're gonna obey me, and then toward the end of the law, "And here's what you get."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: All the blessings-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you're gonna have.

Seth: A land flowing with milk and honey.

David: Yeah, exactly! [laughs]

Seth: Yes, yes.

David: So it's like, oh, it's like, kind of follows that logic, it feels like a little bit.

Seth: Well, and that's a good idea to have in the back of our mind, because what Paul's about to do is, he's gonna explain all the benefits that come to those who have been included in Abraham's family by faith. And the way that he's gonna talk about those benefits given to us through Jesus is in Old Testament terms.

David: Mm.

Seth: We will be God's sons, Old Testament terms. We will have an inheritance, Old Testament terms. We will be in a relationship with God that's like the old Adam, but better, so we're back in Old Testament terms yet again. So Paul's continuing to talk about that phrase that was in his thesis statement at the very beginning.

David: Mm.

Seth: "To the Jew first, and then also to the Gentile." The goodness of the covenant and relationship God had with the Jews is being broadened and expanded to include Gentiles.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so he's going to lay out what that means for Jews and Gentiles together in this section.

David: I see. So it sounds like what you're saying is, like, for the Jew first, then to the Gentile, um, we have heard in the Old Testament all the blessings and promises of being included in God's family, what that means in the Old Testament.

Seth: Yep.

David: That was to the Jew first.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And now, here Paul's gonna show how it not only applies to the Jews, but also applies to the Gentiles. He's bringing-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the covenant blessings, all the good things that God gives his people, that we've read about in the Old Testament-

Seth: That's right

David: ... he's giving those now to the whole nation, or all nations, through Jesus.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay, that's cool.

Seth: That's right. So should we begin?

David: We shall.

Seth: So Paul starts with a big old list right at the beginning-

David: A big old list

Seth: ... of the things we get. "Hey, therefore, since all these things are true, since we are part of God's- Jesus's kingdom through faith, we have been justified by faith," so made in right standing before God. "We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him, we've also obtained access by faith into the grace that we now stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

David: Mm.

Seth: "Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, know that suffering produces endurance, which produces hope, which will not put us to shame, because God is love." So those are the opening benefits available to all God's people who have faith in Jesus.

David: So we've been justified-

Seth: Justified by faith, have a- we're at- in a peaceable relationship with God.

David: Yep.

Seth: We have obtained access by faith into this grace, which is-

David: We have grace.

Seth: We have grace. We have, um-

David: Hope for- hope of glory?

Seth: Hope of glory. So we should talk about what that-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that might mean, and then we also can rejoice in our sufferings.

David: Okay, yep.

Seth: Yes.

David: All right.

Seth: Uh-

David: We've talked about justification.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, peace with God.

Seth: Yeah, it is similar to the idea of justification if we're talking about a right standing or a right relationship with God. If we were at once under God's judgment, because God is a just God, and we are evil humans, we are now at peace in that sense, right? The era of God's justice and anger at human evil is ended, so we're at peace in that sense. But that kind of sounds like justification-

David: Mm

Seth: ... right? So there's overlap with the idea of justification, but I think more to the point, it simply means we are not only at a non-hostile relationship with God, [chuckles] we are also at an actively peaceable relationship with God. We are at shalom with God.

David: Mm.

Seth: We have a sense that we-... are on mission together with God and are doing something with God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We've been reconciled to him, and are joining in his actions in the world moving forward.

David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I can have somebody who, uh, our relationship... Like, like maybe they think I did something to offend them, right?

Seth: Yes.

David: And for years they've thought that I offended them.

Seth: Yes.

David: And then it comes out that, uh, I've been telling, "I di- I never did that to you."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then finally there's evidence that's like, "Oh, I've been justified to, to them."

Seth: That's right. Yes.

David: And they see that I actually didn't do the thing that they thought I did. That doesn't mean we have this peace-

Seth: New relationship

David: ... life together.

Seth: That's right.

David: Uh, the- I've been justified before them-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but can we do life together? Can we live in r- proximity in love?

Seth: Can we live with each other?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Work together-

David: Right

Seth: ... can we do those types of things?

David: And it's like, not a perfect analogy for God, 'cause he wasn't, like, fooled or [chuckles] anything like that.

Seth: Right. Yes.

David: But, but, uh, but yes, it's like not only does God see you as righteous and as good because of what Jesus has done on your behalf, you've been sprinkled clean-

Seth: Yes

David: ... by the blood of Jesus, atoned before him, given his life-

Seth: Yes

David: ... when all you had was death, and his sacrifice has cleansed you.

Seth: Yes.

David: But also now, after you're sprinkled with the blood, which we talked about in the last chapter, you're brought into God's home at the tabernacle.

Seth: Mm.

David: Like, the, the, the, the sprinkling of blood happens-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... and you're clean, and then you're brought in-

Seth: Into the

David: ... to what? One of the ocra- offerings, it's called a peace offering.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's where you sit down with a fellowship meal with God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so you have this deepening of intimacy-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... where you are with God, and you bring his shalom to the world.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Paul will say it in his own language in verse 10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son..." So we were once enemies-

David: Mm

Seth: ... but then recons- that enemy status ended with the death of his Son. How much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life? Meaning his resurrection life. Our status of enemies ended when he died. What does that mean? That he's now King.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That we go beyond not just being enemies, but being friends with God, which is-

David: That's right

Seth: ... a, a phrase he'll use.

David: One of my favorite things, and this will, this, this will slightly benefit our YouTube viewers, our video viewers, over our audio listeners.

Seth: Okay.

David: But I'll try to explain it as I do it. One of the... my favorite things that a preacher I, I saw do one time, where he said... You know, we, we, we- I think we all kind of agree that there's this, like, there's this justified moral right, uh, like, floor.

Seth: Okay.

David: That's like, this is what it means to be you and God are okay, and it's, like, right in the middle.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, and we all know, and, and Romans 1 and 2 prove to us, that we're way down here, and we have... I've got my other hand far below the middle-

Seth: Yes [chuckles]

David: ... of, of my other hand, and we're way down below the line. And we think that justification-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is coming back to zero, coming back to the baseline-

Seth: Mm

David: ... where you and God are now okay.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But actually, it's so much more than that-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in that in his resurrection, he's actually made you pure, righteous, holy, accepted.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And we're gonna get into inheritance, Son-

Seth: Yes

David: ... like, glory, all these other things, it actually, who you are in Jesus is not just, "You and God are okay."

Seth: Yes.

David: He's made you into the image of his Son-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... through the virtue of his blood that's on you, and now you're so much higher above that baseline zero-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, that, and that's who you are. You're righteous, you're good-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... intrinsically, not just, "You're okay."

Seth: Yeah, I've heard, like, the same, same thing with numbers, right? It's like, "Hey, to be okay, you have to have a balance of zero."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "And we had a debt of a million dollars."

David: Right.

Seth: "But Jesus died, so it goes up to zero."

David: Yep.

Seth: True enough.

David: You're debt-free.

Seth: You're debt-free, amazing. But the reality is, it's more than just that we don't have a debt.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We have a credit-

David: That's right

Seth: ... and like God is, we are working together with God, with the capital that he's given us to do stuff in the world together.

David: Yeah. Yeah, so anyway, yeah, I think that's the, like, what we're trying to, to talk about with, like, okay, we've been justified and been given peace. We've been made r- we've- we were enemies-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and but through his death, we're no longer enemies. But then through his resurrection, there's so much more.

Seth: Right, and-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that's even intimated by the fact that it's, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. That's the same language that describes him as the cosmic Lord all the way back in chapter 1.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's like we've had peace by the virtue of our King, Jesus-

David: Mm

Seth: ... implying that it's not just like a cancellation of debt, being at net zero, but there's a ruling, and there's a co-laboring, and, like, a restoration of something that was once lost.

David: Yeah. Well, you know, it's fascinating to actually think about in a Roman context-

Seth: Mm, mm-hmm

David: ... because you have the King Caesar.

Seth: Yes.

David: And w- what is his policy for blessing the nation? The Pax Romana.

Seth: Okay.

David: The peace of Rome.

Seth: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And the king brings peace to the nations, but how does he bring it? Military might [chuckles]-

Seth: Yes

David: ... subjugation, taxation, and it wasn't quite the peace of Rome, it was the fist of Rome that brought it about.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It was the Roman Guard that brought it about.

Seth: That's good, yeah.

David: And now God's saying, "With my blessing of all nations-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... I'm the new and better King, and I'm going to bring about the Pax Jesus. [chuckles] Like, I'm gonna bring about the peace of Jesus, and it's going to be about reconciliation, and shalom, and justice-

Seth: Mm

David: ... going out to the nations, and it's going to be so much better than the Pax Romana."

Seth: Yeah, that's good. I like that.

David: That's cool.

Seth: So he moves on, and he says, "So we have been justified, we have peace with God, and through him we have also obtained access by faith into the grace which we- with which we now stand." So grace is kind of a new concept. We haven't really talked about it here so far.

David: Well, we talked about it a bit in chapter 3, right? That free gift of grace-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is the only way that we could, uh, be made right with God.

Seth: Yes.

David: That Jesus had to give us this free gift-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that was called grace, and we have to have faith, belief, that he actually did it.

Seth: Yeah, and then we had it implicitly when Paul is quoting David-... asking for forgiveness.

David: Oh, that's right. Yep.

Seth: Right. So I think what, what you could say here is that a grace in which we stand... Paul also uses this language elsewhere-

David: Mm.

Seth: -in his letters. Like, it's a- the grace by which we stand, and are continuing to being saved.

David: Mm.

Seth: I, I forget the-

David: I think, is this Galatians 5:1? Is that-

Seth: Yeah, and he tells us to stand in grace. So it seems as if, like, this status of being in God's gracious favor is, like, an ongoing thing that we experience, not-

David: Like, standing as an active posture?

Seth: That's, that's right. We have been given access by faith into this grace, so it seems to be, like, almost a spatial area.

David: Mm.

Seth: We live in this realm of grace, as it were.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so we already know one thing that happens in this realm of grace, we are forgiven of our transgressions-

David: Mm

Seth: ... or our sins, despite what we deserve.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We have been given a righteousness by God that we do not deserve, right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we can also, I think, infer, as Paul continues the argument, that when we stand in this realm of grace, we are also given the power to obey the things that God commands us to do. Like, we exist in this place where God is disposed of giving us the things that we ask of him-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the things that we do not deserve.

David: Okay, there's two things you mentioned there-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that I think are really cool.

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: One is it does tie into our definition of faith that we tried to give in the last episode.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Where it was this active reliance, where it's like God says, "You've been forgiven. You've been justified. We have a peaceable relationship," and I have to enter into that realm [laughs]-

Seth: Yes

David: ... of, yes, it is the bare minimum mental ascent, but then I have to actually throw my heart upon it in reliance and say, "Yes, I am forgiven."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "That is the relationship I'm in with God," and I have to daily, moment by moment even, actively stand in that truth in order for it to be real to me, you know?

Seth: Yes.

David: Maybe I don't... And, like, I'm not saying that, "Oh, when I stop thinking about it, I lose it." I'm not saying that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, but then the other thing you said that was fascinating to me was, I think we can simplify grace to just meaning forgiveness of sins.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But you've expanded it for me in a really cool way-

Seth: Mm

David: ... where it's like, well, gr- the grace to live-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... the grace to do good, the, the grace-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... to live graciously [chuckles]-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that He actually not only gives us the gift of, of salvation, justification, peace, He also gives us the grace of, "I'm going to lead you to obey my commands-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and live in this way," and that is also grace.

Seth: Yeah, and then he goes on and says this. He says, "Into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." So there's another ongoing thing-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that th- this grace is allowing us to do, rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, so something that won't happen for a long time. We hope in things that haven't happened yet. So-

David: So hope is a grace.

Seth: Hope is a grace, in particularly the glory of God.

David: Mm.

Seth: So-

David: And what does he have in mind there when he's talking about hoping in the glory of God?

Seth: I think what he has in mind is that apocalyptic revealing-

David: That he mentioned back in the thesis statement.

Seth: In the thesis statement, which is God's saving power that was first demonstrated on the cross, where he defeated death and sin, finally-

David: Mm

Seth: ... taking over the world, and his kingdom becomes the only kingdom.

David: Oh, so, like, this is the ultimate freedom from exile.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, where it's here on this earth, even if you are- even if you've been justified, even if you have peace with God, even if you stand firm in faith, you still get sick and die.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, and you-

Seth: Rome is still-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... well, in power.

David: Rome is... Yeah, Caesar's still in power, and, um, my neighbor can still attack me, and there's still typhoid.

Seth: Mm.

David: So [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Like, there's still... It's still a broken world that we are exiled in, but ultimately, there is coming a time when the apocalypse of Jesus, the revealing of Jesus, will be fully and final, and he will show himself as the King who subjugates all sin and death to himself, and brings about a peaceable kingdom.

Seth: Yes.

David: And how does the Bible describe that? It's the glory of the Lord covering-

Seth: That's right

David: ... the face of the earth.

Seth: That's right.

David: And so we h- we have this... We've been given the grace of God through faith to have hope in that day.

Seth: Yes, and remember the way that Paul talks about being given over to, like, our depraved minds-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in chapter one, and the hopelessness of that world, the world that-

David: Oh, where they traded the glory of God.

Seth: Yes, uh-

David: Wow

Seth: ... no longer honor Him, worshiping created things, and then are handed over to a culture of death.

David: Mm.

Seth: So here we have, like, the reversal of that for all people. We get the knowledge of the coming glory of God's kingdom for certain.

David: I see.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because without this faith, without this grace, we end up only thinking that, "Oh, this world and all the death that's in it is all we've got-

Seth: Right.

David: ... and I guess I'll use the death-bringing things of this world to try to escape it as much as I can."

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh, but it's kind of a hopeless existence.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And he's like, "No"

Seth: The kingdom is coming.

David: "The kingdom is coming, and you can have hope in that," and that is a grace from God.

Seth: That is a grace from God.

David: That's cool.

Seth: And not only does he give us the hope in that coming day, he gives us the ability to rejoice in our sufferings when that day is slower than we think it should be.

David: Mm.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah. That's an interesting way to word that. Uh, rejoicing and suffering, for me-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that has always felt like a Pauline command, you know, or even a Jesus command.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, "Oh, I really should rejoice when I suffer," but that actually seems like a harder way to get through suffering, in a sense.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Where it's like-

Seth: Come on, man!

David: ... I can't mope. Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... it feels easier to mope in suffering.

Seth: Yes.

David: And what, the way you worded that was actually it's a grace that because you know the kingdom is coming, you can rejoice in suffering, because you know that that's not the terminal end of it.

Seth: That's right.

David: And so actually rejoicing in suffering is not a burdensome command, but a free gift of grace.

Seth: And we know that because of the kingdom that's coming, what's gonna happen to our suffering? Our suffering's never just being stuck in it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It produces character. Character produces hope.

David: Hope.

Seth: And hope will not put us to shame, back to the thesis statement-

David: Ah!

Seth: ... because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.... because we have faith in Jesus Christ-

David: Mm.

Seth: -all the promises of God are coming true finally-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, for all people.

David: Wow. It is interesting that these hopes were the latent desires and longings of the people of Israel.

Seth: That's exactly right. [chuckles]

David: And now-

Seth: Yes

David: ... Paul's inviting the Gentiles into this long-hoped-for global kingdom.

Seth: Yeah. So what is the hope of Israel? It's to be justified by their faith, to be counted righteous-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... by their faith, right? To have peace with God through a sacrifice.

David: Yep.

Seth: Which is the whole Book of Leviticus-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and Numbers. "Through him we've, uh, paid access by faith into this grace in which we stand and rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." What is the hope of the Hebrew people? That they would have a kingdom-

David: That's right

Seth: ... to live in under the Messiah.

David: Yes.

Seth: They had it for a temporary time in David, but when it was lost, what did they hope for? For the return of it.

David: Yes.

Seth: And what was God's grace to them while that didn't come about? The grace to suffer exile.

David: Mm.

Seth: Right? To-

David: And the only way they could suffer through exile as a grace is by knowing that they had the hope of a return.

Seth: Mm-hmm, and this- that's exactly the context into which Paul quotes the Book of Habakkuk, the very beginning of the thesis statement, "For the righteous live by faith." That was written during a time when Israel had been conquered by Assyria, and they're looking down the barrel of years and years-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of imperial power at the hands of others. Long, long future before their kingdom is revealed.

David: Mm.

Seth: How are we gonna live through this time? By faith.

David: Yes, and by faith in what? In, in hope for the glory of God.

Seth: That's right.

David: Right, and what does Habakkuk say about the glory of God? It's going to cover the earth as waters cover the sea.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And in Habakkuk's day, that meant God was gonna bring justice against-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... sin, death, Babylon, all the things that are making you suffer.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so you're hoping in the glory of God coming, subjugating all that's broken, and bringing in a kingdom of peace forever.

Seth: Yes. All the promises Israel hoped for have come true for all people in Jesus.

David: Yes, and now we have the grace-

Seth: Right

David: ... because of our faith in him to hope that that will fully and finally be accomplished-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in his return.

Seth: And so what Paul does here, he says... So this is actually more fundamental than simply the restoration and the accomplishment of what God promised to Abraham.

David: Mm.

Seth: This is what God intended for humanity-

David: Yes

Seth: ... from the very beginning.

David: This isn't Israeli. This is global.

Seth: This is global, right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which goes back into his whole point that, like, we're all humans here, right?

David: Yes.

Seth: Jew and Gentile need the same solution, have the same problem, need the same solution. So he goes into this argument in the back half of chapter five, where he says, "In Adam- "

David: Mm.

Seth: All humanity came from Adam. Adam means humanity.

David: Oh, that's interesting.

Seth: Yes.

David: So he's... I- Israel wanted to, to have a conversation real quick about, "Well, hold on. We're from Abraham. Like, doesn't that count for something?" And he's like, "Well, it counts if you know that he was justified by faith."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And then he's like, "Okay, let's talk to everybody again. Let's not talk about your common ancestor of Abraham only, but let's widen it to, we all come from Adam."

Seth: That's right.

David: And that's what he's doing here.

Seth: That's right.

David: Again, continuing to combine Jew and Gentile-

Seth: Yes

David: ... now through a common ancestor.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: And so we're all humans.

David: Yep.

Seth: Right?

David: Adam.

Seth: We're all in Adam, and what happened in Adam, when Adam was our representative, when he represented humanity, we all died.

David: Mm.

Seth: He had- was given a law, like, like the Jews, but he was also, like, the first p- person. He wasn't technically Jewish either, I guess. He's all of us, right?

David: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Seth: But he did not listen to God, and he introduced death and sin into the world.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so all of humanity is under the problem of, like, the Adamic fall.

David: Okay, so it sounds like he's making kind of the same point that he made in chapters one to three. We all sin. We're all on level zero, [chuckles] you know, or, uh-

Seth: Mm

David: ... I guess, talking about a negative a million dollars. [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Whatever we talked about earlier. Uh, and so level playing field, Jew or Gentile, we're all broken, and he seems to be making the same point. We all come from Adam. He sinned and messed up.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that's-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... our common ancestor. Is, is he making the same point here, or is he developing a new point?

Seth: He's making the same point, but he's making it a different way. He's making an argument from, like, the representative headship of the figure Adam. He's appealed to sin-

David: Mm

Seth: ... like, the common experience of human sin. He's made an argument from the common solution in faith in the, a resurrected Son, and he's saying now, like, we have the same problem again, though, simply by our identification with our representative, Adam.

David: Right. It's like, i- you guys wanna make this, this problem all about your genealogy.

Seth: Mm.

David: Where do you come from?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Can I simplify the equation for you guys?

Seth: Yeah.

David: We all come from a death bringer.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like-

Seth: Yes, that's right.

David: And so, like, that's our common ancestor. Like, go up one more level from Abraham. You guys wanna say Abraham, Gentiles-

Seth: Mm

David: ... go wherever they go.

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

David: We all come from Adam. Like, can I just simplify the argument here?

Seth: Yes.

David: And we all have the headship of a death bringer because we're humans.

Seth: Right, but we, through the headship of a life bringer-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... named Jesus, went into the death that Adam subjugated humanity to, rose above it, and now we can all be inheritors of a new life and a new humanity through the new human, Jesus.

David: Okay, that's huge because what you're saying here is the dividing line that has been in existence has been Abraham's child or not.

Seth: Yep.

David: He's like, "No, no, no, we're gonna go up a level."

Seth: Yes.

David: "We're gonna go, we're all Adam kids."

Seth: That's right.

David: Right? And all Adam kids are going to bring death.

Seth: Yes.

David: But there's this new head of the human race, the cosmic King Jesus, who became human, died our death, and rose to give us his life, and now when in... we have faith in him, we join a new family, and it's not Adam or Abraham, it's Jesus.

Seth: Jesus.

David: We're Jesus's kids.

Seth: Are we in Adam, or are we in Jesus?

David: Right.

Seth: Yes.

David: It, yeah, it's like Adam or Jesus? I'm now in Jesus.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so which is a huge statement for community arguing over family lines-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and who's in, who's out, how do you have the identity markers of one and not the other?... what's Gentile, what's Jewish? He's like, "No, we're gonna be Jesus."

Seth: Yes, that's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he's making this point, too... He, he says this line that can be confusing in verse 13. Uh, he says, "For sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

David: Mm.

Seth: Yet, death reigned from Adam to Moses."

David: People still died.

Seth: People still died, so he's like, "You wanna elevate the importance of the Jewish law to save us from death, but, like, that actually isn't the problem, because death existed for a long time when there was no law."

David: Oh, okay, so he's, he's doing the same thing again. He's elevating the conversation away from... Just as he did away from Abraham-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... he's elevating away from the law. He's like, "Look, the problem of sin and death existed before the law even came in."

Seth: That's right.

David: "So we can't expect it to be the problem or the solution."

Seth: Right.

David: "It's part of the equation, but there's something bigger going on here."

Seth: That's right.

David: "There is universal sin and universal death-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that's, that's been happening. Just as Adam was the head of both Jew and Gentile, sin and death has been the problem of both Jew and Gentile. Before there was Abraham, before there was a law, there have been these issues going on."

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: This is the way that Paul concludes this section.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Can I just read it to you here?

David: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Seth: So verse 18: "Therefore, as one trespass," meaning Adam's sin in the garden, "led to the condemnation of all humanity, so Jesus' one act of righteousness leads to the justification and life for everybody. So for w- by one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners. So by the one man's obedience, the many will be made righteous." So it's like, "Hey, we all died in Adam, but we have a better Adam now."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Right?

David: We can join a new humanity.

Seth: A new humanity, where the blessings and covenant promises God made to Israel are now applied to everyone.

David: Mm.

Seth: Everybody gets righteousness. Everybody gets, uh, peace with God.

David: Mm.

Seth: Everybody gets grace by faith. "However, the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more." So you're like, "Well, why is he talking about the law-

David: Mm

Seth: ... all of a sudden in this conversation?" Like, you proved your point, Paul.

David: Right.

Seth: We all, we all are made righteous and gain the promises of God by our faith in him. I think what he's responding to here is, like, well, what about all the laws-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that God gave? Weren't these supposed to control our behavior?

David: Right.

Seth: Weren't, weren't these supposed to be a way in which we achieve life and escape this pattern?

David: Yeah, isn't this the way out of the brokenness of the world?

Seth: Right, and Paul says, "No!" And, uh, he talks about... He talked about this earlier. He's bringing up a point he already made. Like, what the law always did was it just increased our culpability before God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It laid out what was right and wrong-

David: Yep

Seth: ... but even when that was more clear, we still disobeyed it.

David: Yeah. He, he laid out right and wrong, but that didn't make us do more right and less wrong.

Seth: Right.

David: It just showed us how we kept breaking it. [chuckles]

Seth: And all it did was really increase the sinfulness of the world-

David: Mm

Seth: ... by not only rejecting God's designs as we could perceive them in nature, as we've rejected his clear revelation through his word. However, God used that abject sinfulness of the world, both in the denial of what nature reveals and the denial of what his word reveals, to show us Jesus Christ.

David: Mm.

Seth: In a moment in time where both Jewish people and Gentile people had totally broken the world and filled it with sinfulness and evil, that's when God sent Jesus to fix the whole problem.

David: Mm. Is it- uh, does he say that here?

Seth: He says, "So that as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness, leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

David: Man, so he, uh, he wanted to show sin as it really was-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... as this power that could not be defeated by the sons of Adam.

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh, and death as this ultimate toll that had to be paid by all humankind, and no one could escape it, and he let it mount and grow to become the epidemic of all humanity-

Seth: Yes

David: ... so that at that time, Jesus could come and show that he's the only solution.

Seth: That can seem ethereal-

David: Mm

Seth: ... but the Gentile culture's obsession with death, like, and the giving over to the death and destruction-

David: Mm

Seth: ... like, maybe that's more ethereal. However, the Jews had a revealed word that explained what God expected of them, and they denied it, and that was categorically proven by the death of the Word made flesh, right? The, the, the guilt-

David: Mm

Seth: ... incurred by rejecting God's Word was proven by the Jewish people responsible for Jesus's death. Do you see what I'm saying here? It's like there's like-

David: Yes, I think so. So-

Seth: There's an appropriateness to the timing of God's redemption through Jesus-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because that was when the Jewish rejection of God was most evident.

David: "You, you broke my word, uh, Israel, and have incurred death."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And I'm going to show you that so viscerally by bringing Jesus, who is the Word made flesh-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and he's going to be broken and die."

Seth: That's right.

David: "That is a condemnation against you, in a sense. It should be a prophetic word against you-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... as, look, this is proof that you have so broken-

Seth: Yes

David: ... my law and caused death, that not only have you killed the prophets of old, you've killed my very Son."

Seth: Yes.

David: But that actually ended up being the salvation of Jesus's persecutors, of the word breakers.

Seth: In the moment when the Gentile culture was never-

David: Oh

Seth: ... worse than it could be-

David: There we go, yes

Seth: ... when the Jewish, uh, religious establishment killed my Son and rejected the word, that's the moment I decided to come and save humanity.

David: Yes, yes. Yeah, I get what you're saying now.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yes, that there, uh... Uh, not only is Jesus's death as the Word of God a picture of Israel's law-breaking, it is the height of their law-breaking.

Seth: Yes.

David: It is their biggest moment of, of, uh, rebellion against God, because they killed him.

Seth: That's right.

David: And yet, at that very moment, that was the act that saved them, so that God could show his people that there is nothing-

Seth: That's right

David: ... he is unwilling to save them from-

Seth: That's right

David: ... or forgive them of.

Seth: Right, which is why chapters s- the beginning of chapter six makes so much sense. "What shall we say then? Should we keep sinning so that grace may abound?"

David: ... Oh, wait, there's so much grace!

Seth: It's like, hey, if the height of sin was demonstrated when Gentile culture was like it is now, and the Jews have killed Jesus-

David: Yeah.

Seth: ... should we, should we keep on sinning then?

David: Yeah, let's just make-

Seth: Like, what purpose-

David: Let's just make God's grace look even better.

Seth: Right, and then Paul said, "Okay, guys, you're taking it way too far." [laughing]

David: [laughing]

Seth: And what Paul says, it says, "Of, of course, you can't do that, guys."

David: Yeah.

Seth: We- we've- we're talking about brand-new real- you're a new human!

David: Mm.

Seth: And one way that we can talk about that new humanity is by death and resurrection. We're a new human because of Jesus Christ, after all, and he says, "In the moment that you were baptized into Jesus's death in the water, you were, you were raised out to newness of life, to new life. You cannot live like you lived before."

David: Mm.

Seth: I'm, I'm mixing a whole bunch of ideas, but that's what Paul is doing, too.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: He's like, "Hey, Jesus Christ rose from the dead to make... create a new humanity. You joined in that new humanity in your baptism."

David: Yes.

Seth: And-

David: Okay. Yeah. Let me, let me try something.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: So, uh, you know, so Paul says, "You are saved by faith in Jesus, and he gives you his grace as a free gift." The Jews go, "Um, wait, hold on. I thought we had this law that told us all these right and wrong things to do, and I thought, like, my standing with God had something to do with that. How, how, how is my morality-

Seth: Yes

David: ... my obedience gonna be controlled and constrained, and how am I gonna actually be a blessing to the nations if I don't have the law?" And he's dealt with that.

Seth: That's right.

David: And now, it... I don't know if it's the Gentiles who are now saying this, in a sense-

Seth: Mm

David: ... but it's like, it seems like the Gentiles would then go, "Cool, we're the freedom in Christ people, so, um, can our moral obedience just be completely unrestrained? And because Jesus's grace is made bigger and bigger the more we sin, then is there just no restraint for sin whatsoever? We can just basically antinomianism, do whatever we want?"

Seth: Right, and Paul's like, "No, we are new humans."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "We've been raised to new life. The Adam has died-

David: Mm

Seth: ... in Jesus's grave, and we've demonstrated that when we went under the water." Well, that's what we're, we're communicating when we go into the water baptism-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that the old Adam has died, and something new has come out.

David: A- and to, to use some of the consistent language that we've been trying to develop as we've talked about Paul's thoughts here, w- that death that comes in baptism, it, it sounds like, is that death bringer.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Remember we've talked about how we're all, like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... under sin, and what that means is, is that we just keep bringing about things that are counter to God's good design, that God brought-

Seth: Yes

David: ... a life of flourishing and-

Seth: Yes

David: ... peace and shalom to the world, and we just keep doing things that cause death. And he's like, "You know what?

Seth: Yeah.

David: When you become a new hu- human under Jesus, your death-bringing side has been put to death-

Seth: That's right

David: ... and you've been raised to life as a life-bringer."

Seth: That's right.

David: "So no, you can't keep bringing death. You're a life-bringer now."

Seth: That's right. I mean, he says it in verse six-

David: Okay

Seth: ... of chapter six, "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing," so this is Adam-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... "so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin, for one who has died has been set free from sin. If we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him, and we know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again. Death no longer has dominion over him, and neither does it have dominion over us."

David: The, the old humanity under Adam was marked by death. The new humanity under Jesus is marked by life.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yes.

Seth: We are not slaves to sin anymore. [gentle music] So Paul concludes this section with verse 14, which is kind of like a tricky verse, but it's like a hinge point in his argument, so let's go there. He says, "Okay, taking all that into consideration, that we've died in- with Jesus, been resurrected to the new life with him, for sin will no longer have dominion over you, since you are no longer under law but under grace."

David: Mm.

Seth: And it's like, wow, what is... what on earth does that mean? We don't have to obey the law anymore because we've been given grace? Which is exactly the next question.

David: Yes.

Seth: Are we to sin because we're not under the law but under grace? [laughing]

David: [laughing]

Seth: Is that what you're saying, Paul? It's like, no, man, come on. This is the second letter standing in a row. He says this: "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" He's saying, "Okay, what I'm saying here is you have a choice of masters."

David: Mm.

Seth: "You're no longer under the master sin, because you are under the master of grace, and so you cannot continue to pretend like you are under the master of sin when Jesus Christ, by his death and resurrection, and your joining in of that through your baptism, has transferred your allegiance."

David: Mm.

Seth: "You are now a slave to righteousness, a slave to God's goodness and moral purity, to do those things by his Spirit, not do evil things by the power of sin."

David: Mm.

Seth: Does that make s-

David: Yeah, it does. I, I just have a question.

Seth: Yes.

David: So is he saying that sin had dominion over us, and we were its slave? We just kept bringing about death because that was our genetic makeup, in a sense, like we just kept doing it, we just kept bringing-

Seth: Yes, that's what sin kept doing in us.

David: Sin just kept operating on me, and I just kept doing things that broke God's life-giving design and bringing about death in the world.

Seth: Yes.

David: But when the Adam in me died, the death bringer in me died, and I was raised to a new life as a new human under Jesus, I'm now a life bringer. Is he saying that, um, in the same way that sin had dominion over me and controlled me, is he now saying that Jesus has dominion over me and controls me? So, like, well, can I just go on sinning then, now that I'm under, I'm under grace and not the law? No, actually, you can't. It's impossible for you-... because you are under the domain of Jesus. So he's not talking about a choice of moral masters, rather he's talking about you're a new type of being-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and you have a different dominion over you. So if you've actually been transferred into the new humanity, you just won't, like, act this way anymore. Is that what he's saying?

Seth: I would wanna say that h- anybody who has been baptized can still sin-

David: Yes

Seth: ... can still choose to sin, and still does sin.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And for whatever reason, maybe the best way to talk about that is that sin still controls part of our hearts or not. I, I, I don't- that's not what I-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... more than I wanna say. However, what I think he's saying, I think the, the primary point he's making is just about the disposition of people who have different masters. If you have the master sin, you'll be compelled to obey sin's desires-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that lead to immorality and hypocrisy. Uh, if you are led by the master God and His Spirit, you'll be led to bear fruit-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and life for him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, like, while there might be exceptions where the person led by God does sin, where the person led by sin is charitable-

David: Yeah, totally

Seth: ... the disposition of either slave is towards the will of their master.

David: That's right.

Seth: And that's what's happened in Jesus, that we have been given a new disposition by His Spirit to produce life and fruitfulness for him.

David: Yeah. I just think it's such a beautiful side of the gospel to talk about this switching of dominions-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... out of this compulsive kingdom of death-bringing, where we have sin as a master that we can't help but obey.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And God puts that to death in us, and then raises up a new type of creature-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in the new humanity of Jesus-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that is now under the compulsion of righteousness, that we are... Although we don't do it perfectly, there is this new compulsion I have to do good-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and to be righteous, and to bring life, and what is this new master I have?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that is the switching of our humanity-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is just a beautiful part of the gospel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, that we're no longer under Adam, but we are now under Jesus.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's really cool.

Seth: That's really cool.

David: Okay, cool. So no, we can't just keep sinning now that we're under grace and not the law, because we're different types of creatures.

Seth: That's right.

David: Uh, so where does he go from here?

Seth: Where he, where he goes from here is he speaks directly to Jews for a second.

David: Okay.

Seth: People who know the law, 7 verse 1, and he wants to talk about how they have also switched allegiances, in a sense. So he's going back to this idea we've talked about a couple times, where there's, there's this some sort of belief that the way that we restrain immorality, and sin-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and death, is by obedience to the law.

David: Yes.

Seth: And Paul is kind of really against this idea. [chuckles] He's like, "That's not what the purpose of the law was. It wasn't to restrain death and sin." Like, it could not do that.

David: Right.

Seth: And throughout the Book of Romans so far, he's made this considered argument that what actually happened every time, was that when your sinful character approached the law, sin mastered the law, and used it as an instrument to make you produce more death than you would have otherwise.

David: Yes. I think a good example of this actually is the Book of Numbers.

Seth: Okay.

David: So Numbers, and, and we did this in our introduction video for the Book of Numbers, it's a cycle.

Seth: Yep.

David: And you have, a command is given, uh, and then the people break that command. There's punishment, and then a new command is given to help fix what was just done, but all that does is produce more sin against that commandment, which brings more punishment. So a new command is given-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that produces more sin. [chuckles]

Seth: Yes. [chuckles]

David: And it's like, Numbers is showing us this pattern, that more laws don't make better people.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? Like, and we... I mean, we're parents, we know this.

Seth: Yes.

David: We know this to be true. [chuckles]

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, more rules don't make more obedient children.

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh, in fact, it just makes them feel- it can make them feel like more failures, and just point out where they're messing up more and more. And so that's what he's doing here, is he's saying that, "No, the laws that you were given were never going to morally, um, reform you."

Seth: Yes.

David: "They actually only ever showed you how much of a failure you were." [chuckles]

Seth: Right, 'cause sin always was more powerful than the law.

David: Yes.

Seth: It always took advantage of it, corrupted it-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and made you produce death.

David: Because the, the, yeah, the, the, the sin, the power of sin could come to, to the law, or th- to you through the law.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And the law might say, as he points out, um, "Hey, don't covet. It's a sin to covet."

Seth: Right.

David: And then sin can be like, "Hey, but remember how badly you wanted, you know, the-

Seth: That's right

David: ... the car in your neighbor's driveway? You covetous, garbage person."

Seth: And adds condemnation on top-

David: Yes

Seth: ... of your inability to do it.

David: And it's like, "Man, this is not great."

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so what he's talking about here, so he's gonna start speaking to Jews, people who know the law, and presumably wanna preserve the law as the way to combat sin and death.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he's saying like, "Hey, we don't have to treat the law that way anymore."

David: J- but that does make so much sense, though. I just wanna give a little-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... credence to the Jews in, in Romans.

Seth: Yes.

David: And not that you're not trying to-

Seth: No, I mean, yeah

David: ... but like, that makes so much sense, where it's like, I don't wanna sin. I want to be a life-bringer, and I, I, I am an, I am in the new humanity of Jesus, and I wanna be a life-bringer.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I've got... The revealed will of God isn't the best way forward [chuckles]-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to just try to obey the law as best I can. Isn't that the best way forward?

Seth: Shouldn't I marry myself and tie myself to the law as closely as possible?

David: Like, that is the life-bringing thing, right? It's a good thing. Shouldn't I do that? And he's like, "I, I see where you're coming from."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Not a bad idea, but you can't do it that way, and let me show you why."

Seth: Yes.

David: [chuckles]

Seth: And so what he's gonna say is like, "Hey, you've married yourself to this idea that the law can do this thing, but it can't do that."

David: It's not its purpose.

Seth: "It's not its purpose. Only Jesus can do that."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so what he... He makes this kind of very interesting, like, Jewish legal argument-

David: Yes

Seth: ... where he says, "You know that a covenant is only binding on someone as long as-

David: ... they're alive.

Seth: They're alive, and he uses the example of marriage. If a, a husband dies, that widow can remarry.

David: She's free from the covenant of marriage.

Seth: She's free from her first covenant of marriage and can remarry somebody else.

David: That's right.

Seth: I- this same logic applies. We have died to the law.

David: Yep, he's proven that.

Seth: We have died to the law, which means that that covenant in which we believe that the law can hamstring sin has ended-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and our new operating relationship with God is not around the covenant, it's around faith in Jesus.

David: Yes.

Seth: And we are free to do that.

David: Yep.

Seth: There's not-

David: We were married to the law, now we are married to Jesus.

Seth: There's no, uh... You are not betraying your Jewishness by replacing Torah observance-

David: Yes

Seth: ... with faithfulness in Jesus.

David: Yes, he's using a legal argument to help assuage the con- the consciences of these really great Jewish believers- [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah

David: ... who are like, "I hear you, Paul, but, man, I cannot stop obeying the law this way, or marrying myself to the law this way, because it's our covenant with Yahweh."

Seth: Yes.

David: He's like, "I totally see what you're saying-

Seth: [chuckles]

David: ... but think about it like a marriage. That, that husband died. Literally, Jesus died under the law."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Jesus died under the law, therefore, the covenant is gone. The husband who gave you the law, God-

Seth: Yes

David: ... He gave you the law. You believe that-"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: " ... Jesus is the Son of God, right?"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Yep, we said that."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Well, that law-bringing God died-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... on the cross, and with him, being that he died under the law, the covenant, like, uh, agreement between you is also-

Seth: Dead

David: ... dead. And now there's a new covenant, and it's a covenant of grace under Jesus."

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's, yeah-

David: Which is still very scandalous.

Seth: Which is super scandalous, but it should assuage, like-

David: Yes

Seth: ... "Hey, I want-"

David: I wanna be a part of this new humanity.

Seth: I do, but, like, what do I do with-

David: This other marriage? [chuckles]

Seth: ... this other marriage that I have-

David: It's still there

Seth: ... to my, to my, these Jewish laws?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he's like, "Your relationship with him has fundamentally changed-

David: Yes

Seth: ... because of Jesus."

David: Yeah, and he, like, proves it another way, too. Like, here he proved it in a legal way, that-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... uh, the law isn't the solution they've been looking for, and then in the next section, he kind of proves it in a psychological or an existential and experiential way, where he describes this person who is trying to live life under the law. That he, like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... "I, I try not to, to do, to do evil, but I just keep doing it. I try not to sin, but I sin, and I try to bring life, but I only bring death." He's like, "Yeah, it doesn't work." [chuckles]

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "It, it just doesn't work. Haven't you experienced that-"

Seth: Yeah

David: ... "feeling?" And I think that's why this next passage is such a famous one-

Seth: Mm

David: ... because we've all experienced-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... life like this. That's-

Seth: That's right.

David: "I don't wanna sin, but I just keep sinning, and why is that?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: "I keep- I wanna be a life-bringer, but I keep being a death-bringer. What's going on?"

Seth: Yeah, and I think more to the point for a lo- uh, the, many of the Jews, it feels like what Paul is saying is that the law is sinful-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... because it's bringing about all this death in me.

David: That's right.

Seth: And so he's like, "No, it's, it's not that the law is sinful-

David: Yes

Seth: ... it's that sin is-

David: Using the law

Seth: ... using the law to hurt you."

David: Yes.

Seth: And so he spends all the ending of chapter seven-

David: Yes

Seth: ... proving that over and over again. Sin is using the law to corrupt it, to make you feel at war with yourself-

David: That's right

Seth: ... constantly.

David: And if you need... That's a, that, that's a pretty, again, ethereal, like, picture, but if you need a concrete image of what that looks like, he's actually tying us into the story that started the whole Bible.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's, you've got a good command from God-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Don't eat it.

Seth: Yep.

David: It's a command, and what did sin, embodied in the serpent, do?

Seth: What did that slave master, sin, the-

David: That's right. He used the command, "Don't eat of the tree," to create disobedience and death.

Seth: That's right.

David: And that, that's, that's what he's saying. He's like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... "That's what sin has always done."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so the more commands you get, the more ammo sin has to weasel its way in and make you be a death bringer.

Seth: We need a solution to the problem of sin, and it's not the law-

David: It's not the law

Seth: ... it's Jesus.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's Jesus.

David: Yep.

Seth: And faith, and particularly, faith in Jesus.

David: That's right, which is why he bursts into so much praise in the next section, because here's the solution. "The law, because of sin, has only brought condemnation, but now in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation."

Seth: Yes.

David: And so, like, walk us into that. What's he doing here?

Seth: I mean, you just named the transit- you just landed the transition. [chuckles]

David: Yeah, but the meaning of it all. [chuckles] I'm just quoting. [chuckles]

Seth: Uh, the... [chuckles] I mean, sometimes if you- if we set it up well enough, we can just quote-

David: [laughing]

Seth: ... and the Bible can do the work for us.

David: That's very true.

Seth: Um, yeah, because of our faith in Jesus, the power of sin to condemn and make us wretched-

David: Mm

Seth: ... has been killed.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And there is no more condemnation. There's no more guilt before God for us in Jesus Christ, and he says this in verse two, "For the law of the spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." The law of God, of the law of Jesus' grace and mercy towards you-

David: Mm

Seth: ... has set us free from a law that could only bring about death because of sin's power.

David: I absolutely love his wordplay here-

Seth: Yes

David: ... where he's talking about grace and forgiveness, you know, as a law.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know what? I'm gonna write it into legal code that you're forgiven. [chuckles]

Seth: [chuckles] Yeah.

David: I am going, I am going to put it into a legal document and make it a law for all time-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that I am gracious towards you.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's your new law.

Seth: And it makes total sense, where if we're thinking about the one-two community-

David: Oh, the first to the Jew-

Seth: The Jew

David: ... then to the Gentiles

Seth: And then to the Gentile, and that the Gentiles are being incorporated into the family of Abraham. The family of Abraham, before the Gentiles came in, were defined by obedience to the law.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And they still are.

David: Uh-huh, but it's a new law.

Seth: It's a new law. There is a sense in which, like, no, the people of God are still bound-

David: Yes

Seth: ... by a law.

David: Yeah, that's right.

Seth: The law of Jesus Christ, and he goes on to say that we will fulfill that law through Jesus Christ, but that's a different point for another day-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... however.

David: Um, and if I'm, if I'm right in, in remembering kind of how you've set us up to expect what's going to happen in this-... section, we're about to hear a lot of the benefits of-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... being recipients of this law, which kind of reminds me of what I said toward the beginning, is we've talked a lot about the commandments of the law, and what's our relationship with the law, but then at the end of the Torah, you get all the blessings.

Seth: Yes, that's right.

David: And here we finally get the blessings of this new humanity that has a new law-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and here are all the, quote-unquote, "new"- [chuckles]

Seth: Yes

David: ... blessings that they're going to get.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. So verse three: "For God is done with the law weakened by the flesh could not do." So the law couldn't create this new obedience in us-

David: That's right

Seth: ... but God has done it. "By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." Hey, Jews, I know you're worried about fulfilling God's Torah. It is through what Jesus Christ has done in us.

David: Mm.

Seth: Um-

David: Isn't that amazing that he's like, "There is no condemnation for those people who are in Christ Jesus"?

Seth: Yes.

David: And the only condemnation that is happening in that relationship is that Jesus has condemned our sin.

Seth: Mm-hmm. That's right.

David: We're not condemned.

Seth: That's right.

David: We're not sentenced to death.

Seth: Yes.

David: He is on- the only thing that's sentenced to death in our relationship with Jesus is our sin.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's the only-

Seth: That's good

David: ... thing that has been condemned.

Seth: That's good.

David: That's just beautiful.

Seth: So in order that the righteous requirement of law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to flesh, but according to the Spirit. Now pause right here. What has Paul just described? He said, "Okay, what has happened because of our faith in Jesus? We now have the ability to fulfill the law by His Spirit." Doesn't this sound like Jeremiah 30?

David: Yes.

Seth: Doesn't this sound like the promises of the new covenant? Doesn't this sound like the solution the prophets offered to Israel's chronic disobedience to the law? Like Jeremiah, after witnessing, in his own lifetime, decades of Israel's rebellion towards God's law, but also looking backward through the annals of Hebrew history-

David: Mm

Seth: ... just saw continued faithlessness and increased culpability before God, hoped for a day when God would write the commandments of God on people's hearts.

David: Mm.

Seth: And no one would have to teach each other what God wanted, but they could intuit for themselves, and then obey it for themselves. So the promise of, like, the new covenant, the Spirit, is, like, is being communicated here.

David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seth: The, the hope of Israel was the Spirit.

David: Yes.

Seth: And he's saying, "Because of Jesus, all people now get it."

David: Yeah, which is, again, like classic Paul in Romans, where he says, "I know you guys are trying to be faithful Jews-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but let me just widen your aperture just a little bit and show you that this is the way to be the most faithful Jew." [chuckles]

Seth: If you have a myopic focus on obedience to law, you are missing out what it means to be a faithful Jew. It's by faith.

David: That's right, faith, just like Abraham.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And what, what you're hoping for is not more of the same law, but for a new law obeyed through the Spirit. That's in your Bibles, too.

Seth: That's right.

David: He's like, "Widen the aperture a little bit and get the whole picture-

Seth: That's exactly

David: ... and you will be a Jew of Jews." [chuckles]

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then so he says this, uh-

David: The most, the most Jewish person has the law in their heart and the Holy Spirit, like- [chuckles]

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, that's right. This is the ho- this is what we, we as the Jewish people have been hoping for-

David: Hoping for. Yeah

Seth: ... the whole time, and again, what, what did God promise Abraham? That the Gentiles would be blessed through his family.

David: Yes.

Seth: The whole hope has been that Gentiles could be in the covenant and have God's Spirit, too. Like, that's always been the thing-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... Jewish people.

David: Yes.

Seth: And then he says as much in the next little section here. He says this in verse 15: "For we do not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear-

David: Mm

Seth: ... but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided that we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified in Him." So I'm just... Well, the reason I highlight this verse is I keep- we keep emphasizing that the way to be truly Jewish-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to truly obey the Torah, is by accepting that our relationship with God is based on faith alone-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and through the power of the Spirit, not the power of the Torah. And this word here, inheritance-

David: Mm

Seth: ... or being an heir with God, is the hope of the Jewish people-

David: That's right

Seth: ... is to inherit the land of God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... inherit the Kingdom of God.

David: Yes.

Seth: And you say, "Hey, we all get this."

David: Mm.

Seth: "The Gentiles and Jews get this together by this renewed relationship with Jesus, not by a renewed focus on the law."

David: Yeah, yeah. No, that r- that makes a lot of sense, and w- I see here, he's like, "I don't want you to res- fall back into a spirit of slavery."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, this is hearkening back to Israel's history.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: They were slaves in Egypt, but they were freed, you know, through a, a baptism of sorts, [chuckles] like we just talked about through the Red Sea, where they were brought to the mountain of God, where the Spirit of God, the presence of God, came down upon the mountain. And what did he say? "I've adopted you."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "I will be your God. You will be my people-

Seth: That's right

David: ... and I'm gonna give you an inheritance in the land, and that's gonna be where we build our kingdom."

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's like, "Guys, I'm, I'm doing that salvation story, bringing you out of the dominion of Babylon, sin, and death, and Rome, bringing you into my family, and we are going to have this inheritance of a kingdom together, Jew and Gentile, all nations."

Seth: Yes.

David: And so he's just, like, folding the Gentiles into Israel's story here-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... while at the same time, showing how Jesus is the completion of Israel's story.

Seth: That's right.

David: It's, uh, brilliant.

Seth: He's, he's doing a great job-

David: [chuckles]

Seth: ... of making a sustained argument-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that the hope of the Hebrew Bible is Jewish and Gentile people experiencing, by faith, all the covenant promises of Israel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, that's what's... Yeah, it's super clear.

David: Uh, and we ended that, that verse you quoted, and it seems like it's in the next one as well, um, this highlight on suffering.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: "Provided you suffer with him, in order that you may also be glorified with him."

Seth: Yes.

David: And in verse 18-... for I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing to the glory that is be- being revealed to us. So we have these two things-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... happening, suffering and glory.

Seth: Yep.

David: What's going on here?

Seth: Well, let's remember, that's how chapter five started. This whole section started with suffering and glory.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: "In hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our suffering." So, like, this is Paul ending his argument.

David: Mm.

Seth: This is going back to what he said are the benefits-

David: That's right

Seth: ... of having faith in Jesus Christ.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Is this hope in suffering, in anticipation of the coming Kingdom of God.

David: That's right, and, and we w- when we were looking at it at the beginning of this episode, we were saying that the reason why suffering can actually be a blessing is because we have hope that it's not the end.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: 'Cause we know that God's kingdom is coming, and he will-

Seth: That's right

David: ... subjugate all the things that are s- causing us to suffer, and so we can actually use [chuckles] that as a reason to remember that this is not the terminal end of my life.

Seth: Right, and what he will add here to that conversation we had before is not simply the hope of a guaranteed kingdom-

David: Mm

Seth: ... but also the confidence of God's, um, choosing of us to be in that story.

David: Okay.

Seth: So at the very, uh, end of this little section here, he says this, starting in verse 28, "And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good." And those things working together for good is suffering. He's been talking about suffering-

David: Mm

Seth: ... up to this point. "For those who are called according to his purpose, for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." What is the image of God's Son? That... What is, what is conformity to the picture or the image of Jesus? It would be conforming your life to the pattern of death and resurrection.

David: Mm.

Seth: Right? That's the glory of Jesus-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that he entered human death and rose as the King of Glory-

David: Oh, that's right

Seth: ... over the universe.

David: He went through suffering-

Seth: Yes

David: ... into glory.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yes.

Seth: "So in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers" That's us!

David: Mm.

Seth: "Among many brothers, and those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified, and those who justified he also glorified." People get excited about all these words. However, the point he's making is super simple. He's like, "We have hope of the inevitability of God's coming kingdom if we suffer like Jesus, if we die and rise."

David: I see.

Seth: And that's not only guaranteed by Jesus's resurrection, it's also confirmed by the fact that this has been God's plan since Adam.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, he- "Those whom he foreknew, those he predestined..." He's using the a- ancient words. He's calling us all the way back to the beginning of the Bible. What was God's plan for humanity? It was that all of us would be in Jesus Christ.

David: Mm.

Seth: What was it- His hope in Abraham? That by faith, Jew and Gentile would be blessed.

David: Right.

Seth: Right? It's like-

David: Yes

Seth: ... not only is the future guaranteed by virtue of Jesus's resurrection, it is guaranteed by the fact that God has been working this plan forever ago.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Is that, like, uh, d-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That makes t- a ton, a ton of sense, is that, like, we don't have to look at suffering right now as accidental, because it is in conformity with the plan God has had from the beginning. It's actually part of it. So when we suffer, we actually can rejoice, because we know the pattern of Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That Jesus suffered, and then came glory, so if we're suffering, we know glory's on the other side.

Seth: That's right.

David: Why? Because of this big faith word we've been talking about.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Because we have this active reliance on that truth, that this is the, the space we inhabit.

Seth: Yes.

David: Is that it is a grace that, that we are suffering, because we know that on the other end of it is glory.

Seth: That's right. This is why he ends this whole section this way: "Who shall separate us from the love of Jesus? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?" By the way, all things Paul experienced at some point-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in his life. [chuckles] The, uh-

David: "Look at separation from the love of Jesus. My terrible life?" [laughing]

Seth: "My terrible life?" Uh, "And as it is written..." He then quotes an Old Testament passage about the Hebrew people experiencing death and exile at the hands of others.

David: Mm.

Seth: "So what are we gonna say, that when the Roman Empire finally turns its knife on us and starts persecuting us yet again, like they did when we were fighting over-

David: Mm

Seth: ... Jesus? In all these things, we are more than conquerors. Jesus rose from the dead, and God's been planning from the beginning of the world a united kingdom of Jew and Gentile to rule with him."

David: Mm.

Seth: "In all these things, we are more than conquerors th- through him who loves us. I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nothing can separate us from the love of Jesus Christ."

David: Yeah. It's... And we're more than conquerors because of the first fruits, the firstborn-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... Jesus, who faced all of these things-

Seth: That's right

David: ... and rose from the dead-

Seth: That's right

David: ... in glory. And so because we've been baptized into his death, as Romans 6 talks about, we will also surely raise like he was raised.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so sickness, death, swords, famine, exile, persecution, all of that just confirms that we are on the edge of conquering.

Seth: I mean, that's exactly right.

David: Mm.

Seth: All people, both Jewish people and non-Jewish people, by faith in Jesus's death and resurrection, get access to all the promises God has been making since eternity past.

David: Mm.

Seth: His new kingdom is coming, and that leaves us, or at least it leaves the Jews in Paul's audience receiving this letter, with a really important question.

David: What's that?

Seth: "Well, what about ethnic Israel?

David: Mm.

Seth: Okay, I get what you're saying, Paul. This all sounds awesome, but God made really specific promises to Jewish people, people... ethnic Israel."

David: Mm.

Seth: "And if God is not faithful to those promises, because there's a whole bunch of unbelieving Jews right now-

David: Right

Seth: ... they're circumcised, they're obeying the law. You made promises to those people, too, right?"

David: Uh, "What about Jews outside Jesus?"

Seth: "Yeah, like, didn't you make promises to that people?

David: Mm.

Seth: And if you haven't kept those, how can we be sure that the promises you're talking about now still stand?"

David: Oof, yeah. Is, is our security on the line as Jesus followers-

Seth: Uh, yeah, is it on the line because Jewish people right now are not experiencing-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the promises you said they would?

David: If you broke those promises, how do we know you won't break these?

Seth: That's right.

David: And that's what we'll talk about next time?

Seth: That's what we'll talk about next time.

David: Ooh, that's a heavy-

Seth: [laughing]

David: ... that's a heavy cliffhanger. All right. Well, thank you all for joining us in our, uh, journey through Romans. We're so grateful for you, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]

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Romans 5–8: The Blessings of a New Humanity in Jesus Christ

Show Notes

The Covenant Blessings Extended to All Nations

Peace, Grace, and the Hope of Glory

Adam, Jesus, and the Two Humanities

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

Freedom from the Law Through a New Covenant

No Condemnation, Inheritance, and Unshakeable Love

Related Resources

Introduction to Romans

View our devotional on Romans 1:1-17

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Romans Overview: Handed Over To Death podcast

Listen to the Romans Overview: Jesus is King podcast

Listen to the Romans Overview: A New Humanity podcast

Listen to the Romans Overview: What Happens to Israel? podcast