David: [gentle music] ... And so isn't God faithless? Well, only if God's not forgiving.
Seth: Right. [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: Like, he ends this like, there's no sense in which he is not being faithful-
David: Right
Seth: ... to ethnic Israel.
David: Gosh.
Seth: Disobedience always leads to mercy.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are gonna try to wrap up our conversation on the Book of Romans today. We've already covered so much ground from the introduction of the book and its situation, all the way through chapters one to chapter eight. Now we're going to deal with chapters nine through the end, and if you haven't listened to anything before, we highly encourage you to go back and listen to those first three conversations we've had, or if you really just want the content from this one, because there are some cool things to talk about in this, I understand. Just hop in, and we'll, we'll try to keep you up to speed, but there's too much to cover in a quick synopsis, so we're just gonna jump in and say, Seth, what do we need to be thinking about as we enter into chapter nine of Romans?
Seth: What we need to be thinking about is the obvious objection that a Jewish reader would have had to Paul's argument so far.
David: Mm.
Seth: Paul has just said over and over and over again, that both Jews and Gentiles are both experiencing the promises that God made to Old Testament Israel. All the promises God made to Israel through the old covenant have come true for them through faith in Jesus.
David: Outside of the law.
Seth: Outside of their... of works, righteousness, working on the law. Yeah, all that's happened by faith in Jesus. But that leaves open a really live question for anyone who's an ethnic Jew.
David: Mm.
Seth: What about all the unbelieving Jews out there?
David: Mm.
Seth: Paul actually begins this section, like, kind of weeping over what he sees as a great tragedy, that while he believes in Jesus the Messiah, many of his countrymen-
David: Jewish brothers, yeah
Seth: ... Jewish brothers do not believe in Jesus the Messiah, and he even wishes that he could die and be cut off of the covenant he has with Jesus so that other Jewish brothers and sisters might e- enjoy the covenant he has already experienced through this.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What's being brought up here is, okay, great, Jews and Gentiles are together, are experiencing everything that the Old Testament prophesied and promised, but a ton of Jews right now are experiencing none of those things, because they don't believe-
David: In Jesus
Seth: ... in Jesus the Messiah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They aren't ex- experiencing God's covenant promises. So doesn't that pose a problem?
David: Right.
Seth: D- didn't God make promises to ethnic Israel?
David: Right.
Seth: And isn't their current exclusion prove that God is not being faithful to his promises?
David: Mm.
Seth: And, and Paul will even say it, "But it is not as though the word of God has failed." Like, for him, like, God's saying-
David: That's what's on the line.
Seth: Yeah, God's faithfulness is on the line.
David: Mm.
Seth: In ethnic Israel, not experiencing the covenant blessing Gentiles are currently experiencing by their faith in Jesus, doesn't that mean God is being faithless?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he wants to answer those questions and objections in this next part.
David: That makes tons of sense. So how does he start to answer those questions?
Seth: His first point that he makes is, "Man, God never made promises to all of ethnic Israel."
David: Hmm, interesting.
Seth: Uh-
David: So he's, like, taking the fundamental basis of that hypothetical argument-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and taking issue with it.
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like, "You think that the, the problem is that, what about all of ethnic Israel? Didn't God make promises to them?" And he's saying, "Actually, that's not what happened."
Seth: Right, because God chose Abraham, but then he only chose his son, Isaac.
David: Mm.
Seth: He had other wives, he had other sons, but only Isaac was the one who received the covenant promises. And then Isaac's children, only Jacob received the covenant promises.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, the-
David: Not all Abraham's descendants were this covenant... the, the covenant part of Israel.
Seth: Right. Like, all of-
David: Mm
Seth: ... ethnic Israel was not automatically included in the promises that God was making towards his people. It was always a more selective set of those people.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's his first argument-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that he makes for the first 13 verses.
David: Okay, and what is he trying to prove there? Is he just trying to undermine the, like, flaw of the argument that the Jews are trying to stand on here?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is he trying to do something else?
Seth: I think it's, it's really basically like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "Hey, like, ethnic Israel w- as a whole, was never promised anything."
David: Mm.
Seth: Abraham's son, Isaac, was. Isaac's son, Jacob, was.
David: Mm.
Seth: Esau was not. And it seems as if the common thread through those families is probably a belief and a faith in the promises that God was bringing about.
David: Right, and who he chose.
Seth: That's right.
David: Because... Which is- which makes sense, 'cause he just got done talking about those whom he foreknew, he predestined, he adopted-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he chose you.
Seth: Yeah, he chose you.
David: Guys, this has always been the case. Even with descendants of Abraham-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... there's always been this knowledge and choosing of who-
Seth: That's right
David: ... God is going to enter into covenant with.
Seth: Right, and, like, the automatic question anybody would have, "Well, isn't that unfair?"
David: Mm.
Seth: That God is, like, only choosing some Jews and not all Jews to experience his covenant-
David: Oh, sure
Seth: ... blessing?
David: Yeah. Yep.
Seth: And it's like, man, like, God is choosing based on mercy. Like, nobody deserves to be a recipient of his covenant blessing.
David: Yeah, haven't you read the rest of my letter? [chuckles]
Seth: Right, like, we've all-
David: We've really messed up. [chuckles]
Seth: Right, like, the only reason anybody-... and Israel was chosen-
David: Mm
Seth: ... was because of God's graciousness and mercy towards them, so that all people would one day be included. So like, that, that exclusion of Esau, that exclusion of Abraham's other sons through other wives, was not an ultimate exclusion.
David: Oh, because he's gonna, gonna fold those nations back in as he, as-
Seth: Through that one family.
David: Right.
Seth: One to two.
David: Through the one family goes to the Gentiles.
Seth: That's right, and so he ends this whole section saying, "Hey, God's always chosen a subset-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so that all people would be blessed," and he chose that subset based on mercy, because if you're gonna disagree with God being merciful, then what hope do any of us have?
David: Mm.
Seth: And then finally, the hope has always been that through that chosen family, all families would be blessed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then he quotes from the Book of Isaiah and the Book of, uh, Hosea to prove this point. He says this in verse 25, "Those who were not my people, I will call my people."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And her who was not beloved, I will call beloved. And in that very place was said to them, 'You are not my people. Therefore, they shall be called sons of the living God.'"
David: He's like, "Your very scriptures say that God is going to bring non-Israelites into the family."
Seth: That's right.
David: Uh, and, and in Hosea, the opposite also happened. Like, he-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the ch- a child of an Israelite was called not my, like, not my child, not my, uh, and not loved.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so he's like, "This has been laid out before, that God does sometimes take people inside of this ethnos and excludes them from the covenant, and then brings in people who have traditionally been excluded from the covenant, and brings them in."
Seth: Yeah.
David: God's been doing this.
Seth: God's been doing this.
David: This is not an invention.
Seth: And there's no injustice here.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's never chosen all of ethnic Israel. He's chosen some.
David: That's right.
Seth: It's been based on his mercy-
David: His mercy
Seth: ... so that everybody could receive mercy someday.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's not like a selective thing for all time.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's a selective thing for a purpose. These people will be the means by which all the world experiences God's covenant, faithfulness, and blessing.
David: Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then he's gonna double down on this point-
David: Mm
Seth: ... even more in chapter 10. So it seems as if a lot of people had, like, a kind of, like, transactional relationship to the law. They believed that if they obeyed certain laws, they would be granted into the promises that God has given to his people. Any ethnic Israelites who obeyed the laws would be included in the covenant promises, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: But he's like, "That's just not the case. It's by faith, not by obedience to law." And so what he's gonna say here in verse five is, "For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them." And so this is gonna be kinda confusing, but he's quoting Leviticus 18, where Moses kinda gives a summary of what- how people should interact with the law, and he's quoting it in such a way as to disagree with it.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so what he's saying is, "There's some of you who believe that the way that we should achieve righteousness based on the law is to live out the law."
David: Mm.
Seth: "The way that we are truly Jewish and included in God's covenant blessings is by living out the law and obeying the law, and you appeal to verses like L- Leviticus 18:5."
David: He's like, "Let me give you one of your proof texts."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that's what you say.
David: Yep.
Seth: However, that is in direct contradiction to another verse in the Old Testament-
David: I see
Seth: ... Deuteronomy 30, verses 11 through 14, and he quotes them at length, which says... And it ends this way, "The word," meaning, like, the Torah, "the law, is near you. It's in your mouth, and it's in your heart. That is the word of faith that we proclaim." What is he saying? He's like, "Hey, you keep saying that the way that you become an ethnic Israelite is by obeying this set of laws, and you appeal to Leviticus 18:5. However, Deuteronomy 30:14 tells us that the way that we should relate to the law is in our mouth and in our heart."
David: Mm.
Seth: The law has always told us that the way we relate to the law is not primarily through action-
David: Right
Seth: ... but through confession and belief. So you have- are not understanding how one becomes an ethnic-
David: Mm
Seth: ... a true Israelite. Was that-
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Are you following the argument?
David: Yeah, absolutely.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah. He's, he's bringing in... Again, he's doing this thing he's been doing throughout the whole book, which is to widen the aperture of his Jewish audience, which seems to focus a little more narrowly on true things.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, it's like, well, well let's focus on obeying the, the, the law and circumcision. He's like, "Well, hold on. Let's widen the aperture. Before Abraham was circumcised, it was faith that saved him."
Seth: That's right.
David: Right, he did that.
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like, "Well, okay, uh, isn't it, oh, the obedience to the law that's our ultimate, our ultimate hope?" He's like, "Widen the aperture to Jeremiah, and you see that it's writing it, writing the law on your heart, and the f- the indwelling of the Spirit that's actually your ultimate hope."
Seth: Yes.
David: "Okay, same thing. Well, Leviticus says that if, if we're gonna obey the law, we have to, we have to do it. We have to act in conformity with it, and that is how we will, you know, become God's people."
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "Well, widen the aperture to Deuteronomy-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and you see that actually, adherence to the law is whenever it's confessed and believed."
Seth: That's right.
David: He's... You just need a more holistic picture of your own Torah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: God, and, and remember, this is all in service of the fact that God is not faithless to what he's promised.
David: That's right.
Seth: Because he's always promised inclusion in his family is based on word, what we say, what we confess-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and what we believe.
David: In our hearts, yes.
Seth: And so then he goes, "This is why we have to be telling people about the good news of Jesus." [chuckles]
David: Mm.
Seth: "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of who they have not heard?" And it's like the classic missionary text, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: We should be proclaiming what God has done in Jesus, so that all people, Jew and Gentile, can be included in the covenant promises God has made to his people, Israel.
David: Yes, and he's, and he's continuing to double down on the point he's making, because it's in confessing the Gospel to others, that they hear it, and do what?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They believe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and therefore are included in the covenant promises that God is being faithful to.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right, and a- and his hope here is that through this continued proclamation of the Gospel-... that more ethnic Israelites, people who are obeying the law-
David: Yes
Seth: - would eventually accept their salvation, and righteousness, and inclusion in God's covenant of benefits by faith in Jesus alone.
David: Oh, that's interesting, then, what he's doing there from an argumentative standpoint, is he's saying, "What about all these ethnic Jews who don't believe in Jesus? Isn't God faithless if they're not included-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the covenant blessings?"
Seth: That's right.
David: And he's like, "No, actually, you are the agent of their inclusion-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... if you confess Jesus to them."
Seth: Yes.
David: "So stop arguing with me, and go tell them the gospel." [chuckles]
Seth: Yes. Yeah, and when he ends it with this hope i- in 21, "But of Israel the prophet, Isaiah says, 'All day long I've held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: So the idea is, like, God is still doing it.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's still holding out his hands to a disobedient and contrary people, which they have been for centuries. But through your procl- like, through-
David: Mm
Seth: ... your communication of the Messiah, Jesus, we hope that this ethnic Israelite, that only obeys the law as his way to b-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... be included in God's covenant blessings, would give that up, give that marriage up-
David: Right
Seth: ... so that he could relate to God by faith.
David: Oh, it's fascinating, uh, 'cause the, the charge is, won't God be seen as faithless-
Seth: Mm
David: ... if only the Jews who believe in Jesus are gonna be saved?
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like, "No, actually, he'll be seen as more faithful, because even to the disobedient and the unbelieving, he's still holding out his hands to them, and saying-
Seth: Yes
David: ... 'Come to me.'" And how is he holding out his hands? How is he reaching out? Through your confession.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's seen as so faithful, and so patient, and so fulfilling of his promises, that even to those who continue to reject him, even though he's revealed himself and his Son, he's still holding out his hands and saying, "Come to me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: God has not rejected ethnic Israel.
David: He's still holding out his hands to them.
Seth: He's still holding out his hands, that's right.
David: Yeah, it's so good.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he c- and he says the same thing, that, "So has God rejected his people?" in 11, verse 1.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, no, he has not, and then he goes on to give e- examples throughout the Old Testament story, where even in some of the worst periods of religious decline in Israel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God always preserved a remnant. Like, there's always a small believing community of people that God preserved for himself.
David: Mm.
Seth: So even though it might look like, en masse, the Jewish people in Paul's day were not believing in Jesus, like, hey, we also have biblical precedent to believe and hope that God is preserving and keeping a remnant of faithful people right now, even if we can't see it.
David: That's right, yeah. God is always faithful to keep a r- a faithful remnant.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, that's always happened, and it's happening now.
Seth: That's right.
David: I understand. So like he's saying, uh, "Look at your own history. Whenever the numbers of faithful people dwindled, and you had a bunch of non-believing Jews who were all bowing to Baal-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was God faithless? No!"
Seth: No.
David: "He was always faithful, even if the numbers of his faithful ones were small."
Seth: That's right.
David: "You never questioned his faithfulness then. In fact, you celebrated it, 'cause he remained faithful to those small numbers. He's doing that now, so praise him for it."
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the fact remains is that the number of ethnic Israelites that believe in Jesus is radically small.
David: Yes.
Seth: So what are we to make of that fact?
David: Mm.
Seth: So, which is the next movement in the argument.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, so what are we to m- make of the fact that... Okay, if the fact that not many Jews is not a failure of God's part, what are we to make of the fact that a lot of Jews are not currently saved?
David: Mm.
Seth: Do, do you see the like-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, so-
David: Right
Seth: ... and he says this in verse 7, "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened."
David: Oh, okay, let me word the, the problem-
Seth: Yes
David: ... a different way. Uh, okay, fine, Paul, I agree with you. God's faithfulness hasn't failed, but clearly Israel's has.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.
David: Is that what's happening here?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: We missed it.
Seth: Right, and so what do we do with that? How do we understand that chronic unfaithfulness?
David: Right, has the Israel project failed?
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, i- is, is being Jewish and all the promise, we just... Did we just screw it up beyond repair?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then he, so he picks this up again in verse 11, "So I ask, did Jewish people stumble in order they might fall?" And I think what he means by fall there is, like, fall away forever.
David: Right.
Seth: So, and has God, like, purposely-
David: Given up
Seth: ... given up on his people, as he put this block in their relationship with him, so they cannot recover from it?
David: Right, or to put it in the Israelites' camp, is like, have they just fallen past the point of getting back up?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I mean, we said it pretty, pretty sto- like, strongly in the last podcast, like, it's... Jewish people bear culpability for killing God in the flesh.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the ultimate revelation of his Torah was Jesus Christ, and they rejected him.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, is that the final-
David: Did we, did we screw it up?
Seth: That's right. Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So and he says, "No!"
David: "By no means!"
Seth: "By no means. Uh, rather," he says, "it's through Jewish sinfulness that salvation has come to the Gentiles, in hope to make ethnic Israel jealous."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so he goes on this long argument here, where he says, "The point... " Like, God is using all things for his glory, so that all people can be included in him, in the same way we said before, in the example of Jacob. Jacob was chosen so that eventually Esau could be chosen.
David: Right.
Seth: And so now Gentiles are being chosen, so that eventually Jewish p- people could be chosen. [chuckles]
David: It loops back around to them.
Seth: It's looping back around.
David: Yes. First to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, and back to the Jews. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right. That's what he's saying.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so he hopes that because Gentiles have been included in God's promises to ancient Israel, that will cause them to be jealous of Gentiles, and rejoin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... a covenant Israel by placing their faith in Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he kinda has this, like... It's- I think it's beautiful the way he states it. He says, "Now, if Jewish sinfulness meant riches for the world," meant Gentiles from all over the world are coming to faith, "and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean?"
David: Mm.
Seth: When Jews do finally, in their jealousy, accept Jesus, the Messiah, if we already know the goodness that comes from Jewish rejection of Jesus-... all the Gentile world will be included in the covenant of rest of God.
David: Yeah, imagine once they just fully accept Him.
Seth: Right. Later, he'll say, "It'll be like life from the dead."
David: Oh.
Seth: "It'll be like new creation."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think Paul really has in mind, at some point in time, a lot of Jewish people coming to the faith that, that has been predominant among Gentiles for a long time.
David: Mm.
Seth: But now he turns the conversation and wants to speak to Gentiles directly.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because if you are a Gentile in this congregation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... aren't you now perhaps under the same illusion that some Jews were previously? "Hey, we're the- we're the-
David: Now we're, now we're the chosen ones.
Seth: We're the chosen ones!
David: "I've been foreknown, and adopted, and elected-
Seth: That's right.
David: "And even those who had the promise, they messed it up, and now I'm the one who has first seat. And if we're having all these arguments in the Jewish synagogues in Rome, looks like it's coming up all Romans-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and I'm gonna win all these arguments now."
Seth: Yes. So in the Old Testament, it seemed like Jews had one, then two.
David: Yep.
Seth: And you could take pride in that primacy of relationship with the world.
David: Mm-hmm. [chuckles]
Seth: Now, the situation has switched. It's Gentiles who are bringing Jewish people in, and in that place, you can tend towards pride-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that you are now God's chosen instrument for the salvation of others.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right?
David: So let me guess. Paul's gonna do this thing he's been doing, where he's just gonna level the playing field again. [chuckles] He's just like, "We're, we're gonna go back to understanding that everybody has equal footing."
Seth: That's right.
David: How does he get us there?
Seth: He's gonna talk about a tree.
David: Okay. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: So Jewish.
Seth: So Jewish. He's, uh, he's doing- he's gonna introduce a metaphor, and he's gonna talk about the family of Israel as this great w- olive tree.
David: Okay.
Seth: It has all these natural branches. Um, you know, it looks like a tree.
David: Like a family tree.
Seth: It's like a family tree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of those limbs have been cut off-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and some wild shoots from another tree have been grafted in.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um-
David: Yep
Seth: ... presumably also producing olives, but, you know, they could... Like, have you ever seen, like, tree grafting videos?
David: I have, yes.
Seth: Where you-
David: Because of this passage, I looked-
Seth: Oh, really?
David: I looked it up.
Seth: That's so funny.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was just doing that independently because I was curious if I could pull off, like, growing tomatoes off my cucumber plant.
David: [laughing]
Seth: Like, which is totally possible.
David: That's crazy. Do they start, like, looking like-
Seth: No, no, they-
David: ... cucumbers at all?
Seth: No, because it's just that branch literally produces different fruit-
David: Weird
Seth: ... than the rest of it.
David: Crazy.
Seth: It's crazy.
David: Grafting's nuts.
Seth: Grafting's nuts. Anyway, this is-
David: But the metaphor is there's this family tree of, of Israel, and some of the natural branches, the unbelieving Jews, have been cut off-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and in their place, believing Gentiles have been grafted in.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's the metaphor.
Seth: That's the metaphor.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that's kind of what he's been talking about this whole time.
David: Totally.
Seth: Like, these unbelieving Gentiles get to participate in this family tree that has been chosen in God's mercy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and believes in the Messiah, Jesus.
David: And importantly, they're being grafted into that same tree.
Seth: That's right.
David: The, the tree of true Israel.
Seth: That's right.
David: They're not two separate trees.
Seth: Yep.
David: There, there's one family, and like-
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They have no reason to be boasting.
David: No.
Seth: They were grafted in by mercy.
David: You're lucky to be here. [chuckles]
Seth: The whole tree is not theirs. They're from some weird tree out in the w- bush-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that got cut off and grafted in. They have no reason for pride.
David: Their root system was failing.
Seth: Right, like-
David: They got put on life support by being grafted into Israel.
Seth: Totally! And Paul makes the point that, "And if he cut off natural branches, like, he can cut off you guys, too."
David: That's right. Watch out.
Seth: So watch out. Like, th- there's no place for pride-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when our only basis for inclusion in the family tree of God-
David: Is grace [chuckles]
Seth: ... is grace, and our faith, and something somebody else did for us.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, yeah. [chuckles]
David: Yeah, that makes total sense. Okay, so again, the playing field is leveled. Uh, he, he... Uh, and, and I think for the Jews here, they weren't necessarily before this, like, proud. They were like, "Oh, man, have we lost our footing beyond repair?" He's like, "No, you haven't. The faithfulness of God is still coming after you," and then the Gentiles might have started to get puffed up. He's brought them down, "Now, you better know that you're lucky to be here. [chuckles] By grace, you've been added in, and you better be thankful-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the Jews around you for the, the faith that they've carried for centuries-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that has now brought the Messiah to you."
Seth: Yes.
David: So we're equal footing again, one tree.
Seth: Yes.
David: And where do we go from here?
Seth: And where we go from here is he continues to speak to Gentiles, and he just pushes the point that he's already talked about previously. It's like, "Hey, there's a deep mystery at work in the current situation of unbelief among the Jewish population. Like, a partial hardening has come upon Israel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... until the fullness of Gentiles has come in." And once that happens, he quotes, uh, another prophet, "In this way, all Israel will be saved. The deliverer will come from Zion. He will banish ungodliness from Jacob, and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
David: Mm.
Seth: He's saying, "Hey, guys, the, the situation of Jewish unfaithfulness or unbelief right now is temporary. Your situation where a lot of Gentiles are coming to faith is-
David: A window
Seth: ... is a window in the hope by which God will fulfill his promises to Israel, have many, many Jews come to faith in the future."
David: Right. And also, we have to make sure we condition what he means by all Israel here with the, the, the weight of the argument he's been building.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is he's like, "Israel's not an ethnic thing."
Seth: Right.
David: "There's a true Israel, and it's those who have faith in Jesus."
Seth: That's right.
David: And so through the hardening, through the window, through the Gentiles, through the lifting of that hardening and the future for Jewish hearts, hopefully-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in this way-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the mystery of God's will for the world, all true Israel-
Seth: That's right
David: ... all, all true f- people who have faith in Jesus will be saved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God will bring in everyone that He's known-
Seth: Right
David: ... and adopted.
Seth: And then he kind of makes this broader point. It's like, this, this pattern of disobedience leading into eventual inclusion in God's family is kind of the way that He's done it from the beginning.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he says this in verse 30: "For just as you were at one time disobedient to God, but now have received mercy because of Jewish disobedience, so they, too, have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you, they also may now receive mercy."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "For God has consigned all to disobedience, so that he ha- may have mercy on all."
David: Ah, that makes sense.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, it's the, it's the first to the Jew, then to the Gentile thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like Gentiles were disobedient, so God was merciful to the Israelites to get to you Gentiles.... but n- now, the Gentiles, you guys are being shown mercy so that you can bring the mercy to the disobedient Jews.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we wouldn't have designed it this way-
David: No
Seth: ... but the logic is really clear. It's like, if- how do you get mercy-
David: Without disobedience?
Seth: ... without obedience? How do you get grace-
David: Mm
Seth: ... without disappointment?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, in order for you to experience the fullness of God's love-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and his mercy, and his grace, and his kindness, there actually had to be rampant disobedience-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that, so that he could exercise those things to people who don't deserve it.
David: Yeah, that's so good.
Seth: And he's like, "Man, this is a- G- our God's an amazing God. How deep..." This is where he go, like, goes, starts singing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the middle of Romans. "Oh, the depths of the riches and the wisdom of knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, how inscrutable are his ways." And he ends with praise.
David: Yeah, which I think, to pause there, is such a good reminder, not only at the end of this long 11-chapter theological argument, but also at the end of this passage, which can be filled with a lot of debates and things, um, is just to remind ourselves of how unsearchable [chuckles] are the riches of his knowledge.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: His way is beyond finding out. Like, let the end of this, oh, keep us humble-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as we try to understand what Paul is saying here, and what God's plans are for Jews and Gentiles, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what window we're in, and people wanna speculate. And it's like, I think the thing to pull-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... out of this is, the point of 11 is humility.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so let's be humble. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, and I think it's a pretty brilliant conclusion to the, the problem that was posed at the beginning.
David: Mm.
Seth: Is God faithless to the promises he made to ethnic Israel?
David: Mm.
Seth: And he said, eh, the only way that he can be faithless is if disobedience is a problem to mercy-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and it's not.
David: Wow.
Seth: Like, uh, it's like [chuckles]-
David: Right, 'cause ethnic Israel's being disobedient, and so isn't God faithless? Well, only if God's not forgiving.
Seth: Right. [laughing] Yeah.
David: [laughing]
Seth: Like, he ends this like, there's no sense in which he is not being faithful-
David: Right
Seth: ... to ethnic Israel.
David: Gosh.
Seth: Disobedience always leads to mercy.
David: That's right. His hands never pull back, uh, from being merciful to somebody, no matter how disobedient they are.
Seth: That's right.
David: His hands are still extended.
Seth: That's right.
David: Oh, that's so good.
Seth: And that ends, like, his formal argument-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that he began at the very beginning.
David: Okay.
Seth: That both Jews and Gentiles, by faith, have been included in this new covenant kingdom God is building.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that is not a knock on ethnic Israel-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but the fulfillment of the hopes that God has given to his people from eternity past.
David: Yeah, and so he's dealt with these huge theological issues. Uh, is the law pointless? Is the law sinful? Are Gentiles under a law, even though they didn't get the special revelation? Like, he's done all this theology, and then now he kinda turns to what I think a lot of people would've been like, "Could this have just been the content of your letter?"
Seth: [chuckles] Yeah.
David: Is, like, okay, practically-
Seth: Yes
David: ... how do Jews and Gentiles get together e- as a new humanity under Jesus?
Seth: Yes, what does that kingdom look like?
David: What's the kingdom look like here in Rome-
Seth: Yes
David: ... with a mixed multitude of people following Jesus together?
Seth: That's right, and I think it goes, this goes back all the way to, like, the anti-Roman propaganda that he started with. He was like-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... "Jesus, I'm gonna give you the gospel of Jesus."
David: Right.
Seth: "Not the gospel of Claudius, not the gospel of Nero-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as they like to call their rise and falls, but the gospel of Jesus, who is the Messiah, according to David, and now ruling as the true emperor of the cosmos."
David: Yeah.
Seth: He says it there, "by the resurrection and the power of the Spirit"-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which makes you automatically realize he's an e- he's an eternal king.
David: Yes.
Seth: And what's going to be described in the coming chapters is the quality of life of an eternal kingdom.
David: Mm.
Seth: And we have the benefit of reading this 2,000 years later, hundreds and hundreds of years after Rome has fallen.
David: Right.
Seth: So while Caesar has had his gospel, while that son of God has long been buried and dead, the Son of David, Jesus, still reigns on his throne, and his kingdom ethic still stands.
David: Mm.
Seth: The people that are described in these next chapters are throughout the world, and only growing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... made up of Jews and Gentiles to this day.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh-
David: It's kinda like we talked about how Caesar's Pax Romana, the Peace of Rome, his policy of peace through subjugation and taxation, failed. Rome fell.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But Jesus's policy, the Pax Jesus, the peace of Jesus-
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... is only succeeding ever more with increasing kingdom presence around the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we're going to get a glimpse of that ethic of the kingdom, of the cosmic King Jesus, in the remaining chapters of Romans. Yes?
Seth: That's, that's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Let's do it. [gentle music]
Seth: Paul begins the ethic of the Kingdom of Jesus in a very Jesus way.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, he says this in chapter 12, verse 1: "I appeal to you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Uh-
David: So the foundation of the Jesus ethic is be like Jesus? [chuckles]
Seth: That's right, like-
David: Die like Jesus?
Seth: Yeah, just as Jesus died sacrificially for your benefit, present your bodies as living sacrifices, uh, as well.
David: That seems very un-Roman. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: And he, he, he plays with that idea of being un-Roman. "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind." We talked about how God gave, uh, the Gentiles over to a depraved mind. We, we've talked about how-... Israel's mind towards the law, like, the law was corrupted under the power of sin, and Israel had fallen-
David: Mm
Seth: ... under a debased mind. But now, in the spirit of Jesus, we have a renewed mind, where we're-
David: Right
Seth: ... not conformed to the patterns of one culture or one ethnicity over another, but by the kingdom of God.
David: We can stop being death bringers and start bring- being life bringers.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so that we can do, and he's as, as he says, "The will of God, what is good, acceptable, and perfect."
David: Mm.
Seth: And the rest of the book, uh, really outlines different ethics, kingdom ethics, different ways to embody the sacrifice of Jesus in your relationship with others, in your relationship with your governing authorities, at- r- your relationships in your church, in your relationship with Jews and Gentiles. And one of the things that he's gonna engage with is, he's already said the law's a good thing, which means some Jews are gonna continue to rest on the Sabbath, uh, they're gonna c- eat kosher, they're gonna continue to act like Jews-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in a context where Gentiles are not gonna hold those same values. So chapters 14 and 15 are all about how to navigate that particular issue.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: So how are we gonna live together as a united covenant family? We're all children of Abraham, but we're also gonna act under the law of Jesus, rather than the law of the Torah.
David: Mm.
Seth: What does that look like?
David: And it is interesting that his answer isn't, "Well, everybody just do the Jewish thing, or everybody do the Gentile thing."
Seth: That's right.
David: He, he does something far more clever and far more Jesus-shaped. Is he, is- he's like, he's gonna anchor it all in this living sacrifice idea.
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like, "Man, serve each other, die for each other, love one another."
Seth: Yeah, and he's gonna say that the responsibility belongs to the strong-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to accommodate those who are struggling-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and, and who are weak. And this is what Jesus did, right?
David: Right.
Seth: The strong-
David: Yes
Seth: ... accommodates himself to the sins of the weak-
David: Yes
Seth: ... so that we might be saved and included in his family.
David: So what do you wanna highlight in this section of the kingdom ethic?
Seth: Yeah, I think you could... So we've talked about this as like, "Hey, this is a way to think about the kingdom ethic that will outlast Rome."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Fun category, to a way to think about ethical commands.
David: Mm.
Seth: We've also said, "Hey, this is the way Jews and Gentiles should live together now."
David: Right.
Seth: "This is the way a diverse community should live as one family of God."
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: Paul has also made a ton of different references, like, throughout the book, without explaining what they mean, but they're demonstrated here. So for example, he said that we are free, multiple times-
David: Right
Seth: ... throughout the book. We are free to fulfill the law. We are freed from the law of sin and death, but freed for grace.
David: Yes.
Seth: So another way to think about what you're reading here is, this is what freedom looks like.
David: Oh, that is helpful.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: What f- we know what slavery to the law looked like-
David: Right
Seth: ... and how sin perverted that, and like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... killed us through it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But what does freedom to live like the law look like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by the power of the Spirit? What does a transformed Adam, a person who is in Christ-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who is free, do and live?
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's what you're reading in these last book, books, uh-
David: Wow
Seth: ... these last chapters.
David: Yeah. The new humanity is free from sin and death. What on earth does that look like?
Seth: That's right.
David: We know, so far from Paul's argument, that it doesn't look like antinomianism. It doesn't look like no law-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... keep on sinning so that grace may increase. It doesn't mean that. Uh, it also doesn't mean, well, just your only hope is strict moral obedience to the things that, that God said. Well, 'cause that, sin just uses that against you.
Seth: Right.
David: So then what's... Like, where do I-
Seth: Mm
David: ... where do I go? He's like, "You get off of this track."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: " 'Cause this is the slavery track."
Seth: Yes.
David: "And we're gonna go on a freedom track-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and I'm gonna explain what that looks like to you."
Seth: Right. And maybe even under... So like, what does the freedom track look like, as we are slaves to the Spirit?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Because when we were slaves to sin, we were unable to do the Torah track.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right?
David: That's right.
Seth: But now that we are slaves to the Spirit, we are free to do the self-sacrificial act of loving others as Jesus has loved us.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: So another way to look at what this, this pas- these passages are about are like, this is what slavery to the Spirit looks like.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: It looks like using your gifts for the benefit of others. It looks like, uh, submitting well to your governing authorities, and trying to do your best for your community. It looks like fulfilling the law through love, not passing judgment on one another-
David: Mm
Seth: ... bearing with each other's weaknesses. That's what being a slave to the Spirit is like, and honestly, I would like to be a slave to that kind of thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I know what being a slave to death looks like. It not only produces eventually a death, but also just a, a terrible life.
David: Yes. [chuckles]
Seth: I, I want to be a slave to the kind of things described here, and that's what I'm getting a description of.
David: Yeah, that's really good. What would you say like, uh, is this... What, what's the most characteristic thing that a slave to the Spirit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of someone living in a, in the church in Rome? Like, what, what would be the characteristic thing for them?
Seth: Yeah, I mean, it's like, what are some good representative commands that kinda sum up this ethic? I thought of one-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in verse 17, and this one kinda gets to the heart of the Jew/Gentile thing.
David: Which chapter?
Seth: Uh, chapter 14.
David: Okay.
Seth: 14, verse 17: "Uh, for the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, and peace, and joy, uh, in the Holy Spirit."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Whoever thus serves Christ as a slave to the Holy Spirit is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then, let us pursue what makes for, uh, for peace and for mutual upbuilding."
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's like, what is the essence of the kingdom of God? It's not which food laws you, you-
David: Yep
Seth: ... ascribe to.
David: You're free to do that.
Seth: It's about peace, and righteousness, and joy-
David: Mutual upbuilding
Seth: ... in the Holy Spirit-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... through the power of the Holy Spirit.
David: Mm.
Seth: The other one I, I, I thought of was just, uh, chapter 12, verse 9 and on: "Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil. Hold fast to what is good."... It's like, that's kind of like a repudiation of chapters one and two, right? Abhor w- abhorring what is evil-
David: Yep.
Seth: - and holding fast to what is good.
David: Yep.
Seth: In chapter 13, verses eight and on, this kind of gets to the heart of, like, the Jewish desire to fulfill and obey the Torah as it is written and, and it was revealed. "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law."
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Hey, Jews, I'm on, I'm on Team Torah.
David: Yeah, [laughs] I'm on Team Torah.
Seth: I'm on, uh, uh, I'm on T- I want to obey the Torah, and we do that through love. "For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
David: Oh, so there you go. I think that's the answer I was maybe-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not, didn't know I was trying to get to.
Seth: Yes.
David: But, like, what is, what is free- slavery to the spirit? What is Christian freedom? It's love.
Seth: That's right.
David: We can, we can love one another, no matter the diversity, the disagreement, the, the, [chuckles] the, the arguments. Uh, bring this to us to today.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, we, we have, we have a divided culture. We have divided churches. We have denominations. We have arguments over, like, well, this, this kind of sacrament or that kind of sacrament.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, this way to obey the Bible, that way to obey the Bible. We still have a Jewish, Messianic Jewish, you know, non-Messianic Jewish, Gentile divide, in a sense, of Christians and, and, and Jew.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, what do we do with all of that? Like, how would you counsel somebody who's in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a, um, a, a local church or a context that just is feeling a little bit like Rome? [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and they're just like, "Man, I just feel like everyone around me disagrees with me and thinks I'm wrong, or I think they're wrong."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, how do we move through that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in slavery to the Spirit and into freedom in our cultural contexts?
Seth: I mean, I think Paul's answer is that as soon as you start attaching your hope to a certain outcome-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or a certain set of behaviors you can do or they can do to fix the situation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you're gonna end up start talking past each other-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... almost automatically. You need to remember that the way that the family of God is united is by an awareness of our, like, total inability to be a part... like, to be included in God's family. We are under God's anger, controlled by sin, and cr- controlled by death, until we have faith in Jesus, and he raises us up out of those things.
David: Mm.
Seth: I think Paul's first answer would be, like, "How do I solve division?" It would be, like, one, remind yourself of the necessity of, of faith, and an inclusion, and a family, and promises that you could not have accessed otherwise, except by Jesus Christ.
David: That's right. Remember your total reliance upon grace-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and that y- y- you might feel like you're in a privileged position, an us-and-them thing, that you're right, they're wrong.
Seth: Right.
David: But remember how you're even in the us-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is grace-
Seth: Yes
David: ... forgiveness. [chuckles]
Seth: And then, uh, beyond that, it's like, I think Paul's letter itself is, like, a pretty good blueprint on how you solve really tense relational conflict.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, if the, the Gentile church was a really divided and tense place, and so the way that Paul diffuses that tension is by reminding everybody where they came from, which was nothing, what they've been included in, and how the hopes of both groups, the hope of, of Gentiles being included in the Old Covenant, and the hope of Jewish people that God has chosen them for a purpose, is fulfilled in what God is doing through Jesus Christ.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's... I think Paul gives us a pretty good blueprint for how we should engage-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in a divided church. Say, "Raise us to the ground. Build us back up in Jesus. Remind all of us what we have in common-
David: Yes
Seth: ... being included in God's covenant family, and then affirm what is good about..." And in Paul's case, it's, "What's good about being ethnically Jewish and ethnically Gentile," it's like you guys have, both have real places in God's plans.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And these are, like, theological categories more than, like, Democrat and Republican-
David: Right, right, right
Seth: ... or like black, white, or anything.
David: Yes.
Seth: But, like, I think that's the pattern.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is like, bring us down to the same place.
David: I think that's a great answer.
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: Is, is honestly, once you start trying to identify yourself and set yourself apart or justify yourself by a category or a camp, you're in bad territory [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you need to remind yourself, "Strip yourself back down to you were a lawbreaker. [chuckles] You were in need of grace. There was nothing you could do."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And then the only way that you've reached justification with God is through-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... faith and grace."
Seth: And then I think beyond that, it's like, man, you've gotta love people after that.
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: Like, a- after... And if you... [chuckles] Like, you have to love people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The last four chapters are a lot of probably the hardest things to live out in this book.
David: That's right.
Seth: It's probably pr- pretty easy to teach-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the first part.
David: Much harder.
Seth: It's gonna be pretty difficult to, like, live with people in an understanding way, and lo- love be genuine, and abhor what is evil, and in such a way that invites unity rather than creates disunity.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that's gonna be pretty hard.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's the, the ultimate command. Like, what do you do? Self-sacrificially love-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in hopes of that action leading people to the grace of Jesus.
David: It's so good, and I think to put a full-circle gospel ribbon on this thing, we started this talking about the table of contents and the thesis statement-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that the, the Jewish people, you know, God went to them in order to go to the nations and to cover the world with his justice, that he would root out evil and give people his righteousness, and create shalom across the whole world. He first came to the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and hopes that this family would cover the Earth with his glory. Um, in Jesus, we have been brought into this new humanity. We are the new Garden of Eden, the new true Israel, and by loving each other, and obeying, and acting out this faith, we are bringing shalom to the world. But that only happens when we get out of our heads, and we get out of our armchair theologian, you know, camps-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and we just go love people, and we bring the kingdom to others. We confess that Jesus is Lord, so that people might believe in him with their hearts, and his kingdom of peace will cover the world through that.
Seth: Mm.
David: We're invited into that story.
Seth: Mm.
David: I think that's what, ultimately, Paul's inviting Rome to do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Join the Shalom Movement [chuckles] of Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and take it even to the seat of Caesar's palace, not the one in Vegas. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: I did it on a joke.
Seth: [laughs]
David: There we go.
Seth: And that's the Book of Romans.
David: That's the Book of Romans.
Seth: That's the Book of Romans.
David: I love it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, thank you guys so much-
Seth: Thank you, guys
David: ... for joining us. Thank you, Seth, for all the hard work you've put in on this. Thank you, Christine, on our writing team, for all the study she put in on this. And again, thank you, guys, for joining us and walking through Romans. We hope it's a blessing to you, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
