David: [gentle music] That's their god. We have our God. We have several gods. But Yahweh makes this universal monotheistic claim that, "I'm gonna be the God of Israel," a people group, and everybody reads that, and they're like, "Yeah, that makes sense."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's a normal thing.
Seth: Baal's the god of these guys.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: "But then I'm gonna use this people that I've chosen to go out across all the nations, and I'm gonna be their God, too."
Seth: That's right.
David: It's like, wait, hold on. This is... You're breaking the pattern, the cultural pattern here. But God wants to be the God of the whole world. He wants to be the God of all nations-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and cover the world with His presence.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of Scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told His disciples that every part of the Bible is about Him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of Scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everybody, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are starting our journey through the book of Romans, which I'm very excited about. Huge book.
Seth: Huge book. I mean, Paul's most famous letter, probably.
David: Yep.
Seth: Probably Paul's most important letter. This letter s- started the Protestant Reformation. [chuckles] Like, I mean-
David: Oh, my gosh
Seth: ... [chuckles] historically, it's pretty-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a big, it's a big deal.
David: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Seth: It's a big deal.
David: Yeah, I think everybody-
Seth: Uh
David: ... most Christians, I would say, most Christians who somewhat read their Bibles probably have some kind of relationship with or memory of a part of Romans, you know? Uh, "He's working all things together for your good. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Uh, the wages of sin is death."
Seth: Is death.
David: Uh, yeah, it's like-
Seth: Yeah, there are-
David: Huge-
Seth: Yeah, no, there-
David: Huge verses
Seth: ... are banger after banger after banger- [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... in the book of Romans.
David: It's a greatest hits list.
Seth: It's a greatest hits.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A lot of people will talk about Romans as, like, the king or the q- or the q-
David: The queen of the epistles.
Seth: The queen of the epistles.
David: Yeah, I've heard that.
Seth: Like, the most beautiful and most majestic of what Paul was able-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to write and accomplish.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it is a very unique letter.
David: Why?
Seth: A lot of the other letters have very specific occasions attached to them.
David: Oh, sure, yeah.
Seth: And Paul normally has a very personal relationship with the churches he's messaging.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, oh, he helped start Corinth, or Timothy helped start Ephesus. He's been there before. He's done that thing. Oh, they've sent him previous correspondence that he's responding to.
David: Right.
Seth: Romans, Paul's never visited Rome before. He didn't help plant the church. He is going there on his way to Spain, and so this is his first introduction to this church.
David: So this is his way of saying, "Hey, I'm Paul."
Seth: Yeah, that's right!
David: [chuckles]
Seth: And uniquely, like, I think you'll read Corinthians or Thessalonians, and you'll-
David: Mm
Seth: ... get this sense that, like, he's moving from topic to topic that's he wants to address, or he must address.
David: Yeah, you often h- hear him going, "Now, concerning blah, blah, blah, brothers."
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Romans doesn't really have that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because it is a sustained thought.
David: Mm.
Seth: He is making a long argument from beginning to end, and there's not as much interruption of new points of contention or-
David: Mm
Seth: ... solutions, like discrete points he has to solve. He's making an argument for 16 chapters.
David: I see. So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, uh, which is a weird way to say hello.
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: So [chuckles] it's like, "Hello, I have an argument to make." [chuckles]
Seth: "I have an argument to make."
David: I mean, that seems like how I might say hello to some people. [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles] Well, I think one way to think about it is that Paul, he's never met these people before.
David: Right.
Seth: They might have heard of Paul.
David: Who has heard of Paul?
Seth: Who hasn't heard of Paul? He's also fundraising for a trip to Spain.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so he is trying to commend himself to this church that he's never met before.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he wants to give a defense of what he and his ministry is all about.
David: Mm.
Seth: So like, "Here, this is what I'm about as an apostle of God. I was chosen as apostle to the Gentiles. Here's what that means, and here's what I believe it means." And he also seems to be aware of some tension between Jews and Gentiles in Rome, and so he's also writing in such a way that might solve some of the tensions they're experiencing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in this prolonged argument that he's making.
David: W- what is it in Romans that cues us into the fact that Paul's not addressing a situation like, like, "Hey, I've, I've heard a lot of things about how the Jews and Gentiles in Rome aren't getting along-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so let me write about that"? Why are we saying that's not necessarily the instigating action for the authorship of Romans?
Seth: Maybe I said it too strongly.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think he is responding to something contextually.
David: Mm.
Seth: However, it's not like... The situation in Corinth-
David: In Corinth, yeah, yeah.
Seth: In Corinth, like where you have-
David: Someone sleeping with a mother-in-law.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, "Hey, we're gonna talk about this. Now, we're gonna talk about your problems with communion. Now, we're gonna talk about your problems with spiritual gifts."
David: Right.
Seth: And there's not necessarily any connecting tissue-
David: No
Seth: ... between those discrete issues.
David: Right.
Seth: Paul is... What I mean to say here is Paul wants to just make a long, sustained conversa- like, argument-
David: Mm, mm
Seth: ... through the whole book, rather than addressing discrete things.
David: Yeah, yep.
Seth: There is a contextual situation he's responding to.
David: Totally, yeah.
Seth: And we should talk about that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But-
David: But it does make sense, though, that when he starts his letter, as opposed to a lot of other, uh, of his letters, he's not saying, uh, you know, "So I've heard" or "As, a- as I've heard" or, "When I was last with you," or... You know, he, he-
Seth: That's right
David: ... he sets some kind of personal context. Here, the context he sets is, "I'm planning on coming."
Seth: "You never met me before."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You're not familiar with what I'm all about."
David: Right.
Seth: "Let me tell you."
David: Yeah, that is, so that is an interesting way of, like, a matter of first priority-
Seth: Mm
David: ... as the occasion of the letter-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is Paul introducing himself to a church that he's never met but plans to come and visit at some point.
Seth: And think about, too, just the placement of this letter and, like, the rest of Paul's literature and letters. This is one of the later letters that Paul writes.... he has been an apostle to the Gentiles for over 20 years.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's about- he's trying to get to Spain, and we know he never makes it there-
David: Right
Seth: ... because he gets to Rome, and eventually gets imprisoned in Rome, and dies in Rome. So this is at the tail end of his ministry, and in a lot of ways, what we're reading in Romans is the collected wisdom of his 20-plus years of ministry, ministry among the Gentiles-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Asia Minor, and throughout Greece and the Roman Empire.
David: All with the background of a career Pharisee, and-
Seth: That's right
David: ... a Torah expert. [chuckles]
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Paul is, as an individual, is a fascinating human being.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he even... Paul will bring up his own story, kind of obliquely.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I think maybe we should talk about who Paul is-
David: Okay, yeah
Seth: ... and, like, what his story is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because you just mentioned, he was a Pharisee.
David: Right.
Seth: He was... He talks about this in another one of his letters, where he's like, he's a Jew of Jew-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... blameless according to law, a zealous man. Uh, we get introduced to him in the Book of Acts as somebody who's persecuting Christians.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, presiding over the death of Stephen. But on the road to Damascus, in Acts 9, Jesus shows up to him, reveals himself to him, blinds him, and then tells him to go to the city of Damascus, where a man named Ananias is waiting-
David: Waiting for him.
Seth: Uh, waiting for him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what God tells Ananias, 'cause Ananias is skeptical of Paul, because, you know, he's been killing Christians-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... up to this point.
David: That's a fair skepticism.
Seth: Um, as Christine pointed out, uh, recently, it's like P- Ananias might have been on Paul's hit list.
David: Oh, totally.
Seth: Right? Like [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was like-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... oh yeah, that's- so, like, Ananias is rightfully worried about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... engaging with the persecutor, Paul. But God speaks to Ananias in Acts 9:15, and he tells him this: "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel, for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name."
David: Mm.
Seth: So whenever Paul is about to start his ministry, as he's transitioning from persecuting Jew to Christian apostle, God tells Ananias what his ministry is going to contain. It's going to be a ministry of suffering to both Jews and Gentiles, and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Gentiles are actually mentioned first here.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, his primary ministry is going to be one to Gentiles, and for the next 20 years, that's exactly what he's doing. He's living on the bleeding edge of missions, as a Jewish Messianic sect becomes this burgeoning religion among non-Jewish people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And a lot of the conflicts we read about in Acts are between, like, these Jewish-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Gentile things. Like, and Paul's in the middle of it all.
David: Right. Yeah, I think it might be interesting for us to talk about what is a Jew and a Gentile, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... why that, why is that shift important? What's happening there? 'Cause we have in Paul this microcosm of a Jew of Jews, a Pharisee of Pharisees, moving into this missionary to the Gentiles. Uh, and that's a microcosm of what's happening in the Kingdom of God on a really wide level-
Seth: Yes
David: ... which is the Jewish faith is going out to the Gentiles-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... out to the nations, through the fulfillment of Jesus. But what, what's the story there?
Seth: Oh.
David: Why is that actually a, quote-unquote, "issue"?
Seth: Yes.
David: What's the sticking point? Like, who cares?
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is, like, probably the central theological tension that goes throughout the whole book of Romans.
David: Yes.
Seth: And yeah, so all the way back in the b- Book of Genesis-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when God first chooses the first Gentile to be a Jew, Abraham, he tells him that he will be his chosen family, his chosen people, who through him, the whole world will be blessed.
David: Yeah, and I think, uh, let, let's define Gentile.
Seth: Yes.
David: It means the ethnos, the nations, like-
Seth: Anybody that's not Jewish.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: The world.
Seth: The world.
David: It's the world.
Seth: Everyone that's not Jewish.
David: Everybody in the world.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. So I think that's helpful. So God plucks somebody out of the world, out of the nations, out of the Gentiles, uh, and specifically Abraham-
Seth: Yes
David: ... he picked out of the nation of Babylon.
Seth: That's right.
David: The... I- if, if, if, if Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, Abraham was a Gentile of Gentiles-
Seth: Yes
David: ... being in Babylon [chuckles].
Seth: And God chooses this one man and his family to be his chosen people, the Jews, the, the Hebrews, the Israelites.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the Bible traces their story and their interactions with God, and how they continue to experience God's blessings, and how the world comes... as the world comes into interaction with them. They are also blessed-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and experience God's goodness, and his life-giving power, and his covenant favor.
David: Yes, and that's a pretty novel idea because, you know, i- in, in the, in the biblical mind, you know, the people who lived during the authorship of the Bible, that stretched over a, a very long time, nations had gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And if you were a nation state, [chuckles] you had a god, and maybe it was, you know, Baal, or, you know, for, for Israel, it was Yahweh, and that god was your national deity. And this idea of a universal God wasn't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... really a thing.
Seth: Yeah, monotheism is not-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, the, the default of most-
David: Absolutely not
Seth: ... human religion.
David: And so it's like, "Yeah, that's fine. That's their god. We have our god, and some of- we have several gods." But Yahweh makes this universal, monotheistic claim that, "I'm gonna be the God of Israel," a people group. And e- everybody reads that, and they're like, "Yeah, that makes sense."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's a normal thing.
Seth: Baal's the god of these guys.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: "But then I'm gonna use this people that I've chosen to go out across all the nations, and I'm gonna be their god, too."
Seth: That's right.
David: It's like, "Wait, hold on. This is... You're breaking the pattern, the cultural pattern here." But God wants to be the God of the whole world. He wants to be the God of all nations-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and cover the world with his presence, and, uh, and that's why he chooses the nation of Israel to be that carrier-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of his presence out to the nations.
Seth: This is an important idea. It's like, it's... The way that God intends to work in the world is always, follows, like, a step one, step two process.
David: Mm.
Seth: So in Romans, Paul will say that the Gospel goes to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.
David: Right.
Seth: And what that means is that God has made a plan to bless the entire world and bring everyone into relationship with him, primarily through his relationship with the Abrahamic family-
David: Yes
Seth: ... through the Jewish faith, and through that faith, the rest of the world will be blessed. So it's really important-... for Paul that we understand that one-two-
David: Yeah
Seth: -pattern, because if God is not faithful to his promises to Abraham, Gentiles don't get anything.
David: Yeah, that's good.
Seth: And-
David: That's gonna be really helpful for Romans.
Seth: And that's gonna be really helpful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as we go through Romans. And so, um, this is the story-
David: Yeah
Seth: -of the Bible, and so when we get to Paul's day, and he's a Pharisee of Pharisees, what's ended up happening broadly is that there's been this curving inward of Judaism.
David: Mm.
Seth: Where there is a, an ethnic pride that has taken over, and Judaism has become less and less about including the Gentiles-
David: And more about protecting themselves from the Gentiles.
Seth: A bit more... Yeah, and that's exactly right.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so there is that problem that is inherent, or not inherent, but, like, existing within the Judaism of Paul's day. And so when you have a group claiming that a Messiah has come and included Gentiles, you're bucking up against the cultural Judaism of the day-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that has been insulating itself from Gentile influence for, for a long time now.
David: So the, the, the, the church in, or I should say the synagogue or the Jews in, in Rome, aren't necessarily offended or scandalized by the idea that the Messiah has come, or even, like some others, that the Messiah has died and rose. Those aren't necessarily the sticking points. The sticking points is that this Messiah, who we've accepted, is wanting to include and bless the nations. Is that the issue, or is it how he's going about that, or what that looks like?
Seth: I think that might be an underlying cultural tension-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and maybe understanding what's happening in Rome specifically before the writing of Paul's letter will be helpful.
David: Right. Which, before we say that, I, I-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, it is interesting thinking about Rome as the context for this, and I know we're gonna get into-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... some things, but it is interesting in the way that God plucked Abraham out of Babylon, being-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the Gentile of Gentiles. Uh, and Babylon was the center of, [chuckles] you know, the Gentile world in that day.
Seth: Yes.
David: Rome had become that.
Seth: That's right.
David: And now you have this new Gentile of Gentile headquarters, which is Rome-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and that's going to be the place where we're gonna have this conversation.
Seth: That's fascinating.
David: Uh, a- and then, uh, I thought that... The other thing I thought was, oh, this one-two step that you were talking about-
Seth: Mm
David: ... first to the Jew, then to the world, um, starts in the Garden.
Seth: Mm, uh-huh.
David: God's not... God doesn't just go-
Seth: That's right
David: ... "I'm gonna just cover the whole world with my presence, done." He's like, "No, I'm gonna start with one family-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... Adam and Eve, in one place, and we're gonna grow this thing out over the whole world in partnership together."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's always how God operates.
Seth: That's right.
David: He always does it in partnership and with families, and it starts with small things.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's just fascinating that that's how an omnipotent being chooses to work.
Seth: Yes.
David: Anyway.
Seth: And, like, you can also begin to understand some, like, of the really human ways that can cause pride.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Like, "Oh, God has chosen this family-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be the way, and our laws, and, like, the way that he's communicated to us takes priority over the ways the Gentiles wanna relate to God."
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, like, it makes a ton of sense. Like, hey, God gave us these laws. He gave us all these ethnic markers of inclusion in His covenant.
David: Mm.
Seth: And we are the way God cre- communicates with the world first.
David: Right.
Seth: Gentiles are supposed to pattern themselves after-
David: After us.
Seth: After us!
David: Mm.
Seth: And so when you get into a church situation where both the Jews and Gentiles are living together, and your cultural practices, your ethnic practices-
David: Are so different
Seth: ... your dietary practices are different, you start to see why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this is gonna be an issue you need to talk about.
David: 'Cause you gotta do it our way.
Seth: How do you think about the priority of God's dealing with the Jews in a context where most believers are Gentiles now?
David: Mm.
Seth: What role does the law play in their lives?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, those are real live questions.
David: Yes.
Seth: And what makes it worse is the cultural and, like, political things that were happening in Rome at the time.
David: Yes, so let's talk about that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What was going on in Rome, uh, before this and leading up to the authorship of Romans?
Seth: Yeah. The... Almost everybody agrees, uh, the time period around which the Book of Romans was written, we know that Paul has just finished his second missionary journey through, like, Asia-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and parts, the eastern parts of the Roman Empire, and he wants to go to Spain, which is- he never gets there. He's, he's about to die. So we know that that range of dates is, like, the late '50s.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right, or late '50s. And he's obviously written the Book of Romans on his way to Rome and on his way to Spain, so we're in the late '50s era. Both from, uh, Roman historians and from the Bible itself, we know that around that time, there was a mass exodus of... Not an exodus, but an expulsion-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of Jews from Rome.
David: Yeah, like a, like a deportation.
Seth: That's right. So as Christianity began to take over several of the Jewish synagogues, there was a lot of conflict between Jewish Christians, uh, Messianic Christians or Messianic Jews-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and Jews who had not yet accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
David: That's right.
Seth: And this caused such conflict that the Roman emperor banished all Jews from Rome for at least five years.
David: Yeah, because he doesn't see, like, the difference. He's like, "Jews are fighting with each other."
Seth: Right.
David: And he doesn't get the Messianic versus non-Messianic thing that's happening here.
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like, "The Jews are causing trouble. Kick 'em out."
Seth: That's right. And so what ends up happening is, the way that the Christian church likely started in Rome was that you had a whole bunch of Roman Jews at Pentecost. They got saved at Pentecost, experienced the Holy Spirit, were convinced that Jesus was the Messiah, go back to their Jewish synagogues in Rome-
David: And start being like, "The Messiah came, guys!"
Seth: "The Messiah has come!"
David: "He lives in me now." [chuckles]
Seth: That's right. And-
David: Could you imagine being in that synagogue? [laughing]
Seth: ... [laughing]
David: You're like, "Wait, what happened?"
Seth: "Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. What? Everything we've been waiting for has come true? Are you sure?"
David: "Are you sure? Let's fight about it." [chuckles]
Seth: Um, and so over time, these Jewish synagogues are becoming increasingly Messianic.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Increasingly talking about the Jewish, uh, the, the Jewish Messiah has come in Jesus, and in that period of time, a whole bunch of non-Jewish folks start attending synagogue and believing in Jesus as well.
David: Mm.
Seth: So y- and for this happens for-... perhaps between Pentecost and the writing of this letter, 20 years?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the church has been growing for 20 years-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, in this very mixed Jew-Gentile situation, where it's likely that the Jews are the primary leaders of the church. They have the ancient scriptures.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're the ones who have the revelation of the Messiah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the Old Testament.
David: They know what a Messiah is. [chuckles]
Seth: They know what a Messiah is. They have the holy text, and so, you know, presumably Gentile churches, predominantly Gentile churches, are popping up, but, like, that's the way it happens.
David: Yeah.
Seth: However, whenever Emperor Claudius kicks out the Jews, there are no Jewish leaders left, so now a church that had been a mixture of Jewish people and Gentile people, non-Jewish people, is now entirely in the hands of Gentile believers.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And for the next five years, Gentiles are talking to only Gentiles. They pr- and they've had the Bible for 20 years now. They know the Bible. They have access to it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They know the Old Testament, but they're speaking primarily to a Gentile audience, uh, for that, that five-year span. This is all speculation, but just to think about what it would be like to live in that community, like, I think you would necessarily end up being more selective about the types of things you preach about. If you're a mixed community of Jews and Gentiles, and Jew... You have a Jewish leadership, you're gonna have, like, nuanced conversations about eating kosher, about observing the Sabbath.
David: Mm.
Seth: You're gonna have those things. All that goes away when the Jews leave. So you have Gentiles leading Gentile churches speaking about Gentile problems-
David: Yep
Seth: ... including more Gentiles. "Hey, there's freedom in Christ. We ha- Gentiles have been included," and over that five years, it makes total sense that that Jewish character-
David: Those identity markers
Seth: ... Those identity markers have not been talked about or engaged with for a long time.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Mm, yep.
Seth: And the Gentiles feel totally justified in that for a number of good reasons, right?
David: Yeah. Right.
Seth: However, five years goes by, and all the Jews start coming back. Acts 18 tells us Priscilla and Aquila are among them-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, some heavy hitters.
David: Teachers.
Seth: Teachers in the early Christian movement, and when they come back to Rome, they are coming back to a Christianity they don't recognize.
David: Right.
Seth: A way of following Jesus, the Messiah, that feels totally different.
David: And, like, and, and interestingly, their experience of what it means to be Christian as a Jew-
Seth: Mm
David: ... was probably increased by the diaspora-
Seth: That's exactly right
David: ... because they had to huddle together and became more Jewish.
Seth: That's right.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: You, what have, what have the Jews always done when they're in exile? They, they're confined-
David: Communities
Seth: ... confined into a little community-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and what are we focused on? Let's practice the feasts.
David: Right.
Seth: Let's keep S- let's keep the Sabbath. Let's eat kosher. We can k- we can do this even if we can't offer sacrifices. We can do this-
David: That's right
Seth: ... no matter who's in power.
David: This is how we survived these five years.
Seth: And this is what God has told us to do as followers of Him who have now accepted the Messiah.
David: Right, and now we come back to Rome, and all of those things that have been our lifeline and our identity, our way of doing life with Jesus and with our community-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is just gone now in these churches that we helped start?
Seth: Yeah, they're... Like, they don't value the things that we value.
David: Oh, that's hard. [chuckles]
Seth: And so, like, that, and it's like all that feels really natural and really human.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And when you start trying to argue for, "Hey, I think we..." "Stop telling me I shouldn't do this on the Sabbath." "Stop telling us you should do it on the Sab..." You get pulled into your camps so fast.
David: So fast.
Seth: And it would be really hard to navigate through those waters.
David: Especially because both of them are right in a sense.
Seth: That's right.
David: They both have really good ground to stand on, which leaves Paul quite the task to walk that very narrow line through these two camps while trying to not necessarily solve the issue but get them all focused on Jesus and the Gospel-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and let that be the solution.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he's got quite his work cut out for him.
Seth: Right. He, like, he wants to fundraise for a trip to Spain.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He wants to, uh, meet a church he's never met before, and he also wants to offer, like, some real... He has 20 years of ministry experience-
David: Yep
Seth: ... dealing with exactly these issues-
David: Oh, totally
Seth: ... all over the Roman Empire.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, "Hey, let me synthesize for you what I've learned with dealing with Jew and Gentile problems-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and relationships and interactions with the Old Testament law, and let me write it to you as my first contact with this church on my way to Spain."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what the book of Romans is, like, doing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on a lot of levels.
David: That's really helpful. Um, what other matters of, like, context and first priority do you think we need to bring up before kind of... I'm guessing we could outline the story or the... I'm really curious for you to walk through that argument that you-
Seth: Yes
David: ... That sustained argument, but what else do we need to have in our heads before we walk through that, or are we prepared for it?
Seth: I think you- we have the big buckets-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of things that we have, we need in order to engage with Romans really well.
David: Awesome.
Seth: Like, hey, here is the history. Here's the context. Here's who Paul is. Here's the ideas that he's gonna be engaging throughout the letter. I think you're well set to begin the journey in Romans. [gentle music] I think the best place to start, though, is in Romans 1:1. E- Paul gives kind of a table of contents for what you can expect from his letter, and then he even gives us a thesis statement about what his letter's gonna all be about in verses 16 and 17.
David: How, how kind of Paul.
Seth: How kind of Paul-
David: How kind of him
Seth: ... to begin his argument with a thesis statement. [chuckles] Ah.
David: Ah, good writing.
Seth: Good w-
David: He's good, good writing.
Seth: Good writing, Paul.
David: Good writing.
Seth: Thank you. Thank you. So in the first six verses, I'm just gonna read them to you, and the way that I describe this is, like, a narratival, like, uh, table of contents or an introductory table of contents. It doesn't sound like a table of contents, 'cause they're full sentences, but he really is doing that.
David: Mm.
Seth: So let me just read them to you. "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the Gospel of God."... which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh, and was declared to be the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations. So, like, it's like, okay, that feels like just opening pattern, right?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it kinda does.
Seth: But Paul is doing a ton of, like, biographical work-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and introductory work. So just beginning, "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle." We've already talked about the original calling of Paul as an apostle to the Gentiles. We know that Paul's original calling is actually a pretty important factor on his qualification to engage with a church divided over Jewish and Gentile issues.
David: Right. It would be like, um, if you had a computer problem, and then you get a letter or an email from Bill Gates, and it's like-
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Bill Ga- Bill Gates-
Seth: [laughs] Yes, yes.
David: ... To you with a computer problem. I was set apart as the founder of Microsoft."
Seth: [laughs]
David: And you're like, "Oh, this guy's gonna be able to help us."
Seth: Yeah, let's go.
David: Like, this guy's qualified-
Seth: Cool, cool, cool
David: ... to answer the question.
Seth: Uh, and he says, "Set apart for the Gospel of God." Almost the entire Book of Romans is about unpacking what the gospel is and its implications for others, "which he promised beforehand through the prophets in the Holy Scriptures." And Paul's gonna do that, explain the implications of the gospel, using Old Testament texts.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's gonna say, "The reason we believe in the gospel is because the Old Testament prepared us to do so."
David: It's interesting that he's already doing this very astute, pastoral thing here-
Seth: Yes
David: ... where he's like, "Hey, I'm the set-apart apostle, wink, Gentiles. You know I'm for you-
Seth: Yes.
David: ... And I'm gonna prove it using the Jews' Holy Scriptures."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Wink, Jews, I'm on your side."
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: And they're like, "Okay."
Seth: "All right. Okay, he's on-" [laughs]
David: Like, everybody feels like he's talking to them.
Seth: He's on their side. [laughs]
David: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]
Seth: Right, right, right. He says, "Concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh, and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness." So what is this gospel about? It's about the Messianic King, who is also the Son of God, raised from the dead by the Spirit of holiness.
David: Ah, yep.
Seth: So the i- so the idea of Jesus as King, empowered by the Spirit of holiness, is gonna be a, two other main points throughout the whole letter of Romans, that Jesus has been raised and is King over the cosmos. He is Lord. The theme of holiness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is prominent throughout. And this is also, I think, maybe just a jab in the eye at the Roman imperial system.
David: Oh, totally.
Seth: So-
David: Yeah, but he does it, he does it so deftly.
Seth: He does it pretty great, yeah.
David: He isn't just like, "Uh, we have a counter king, and we don't like Caesar." It's like, well, what if this letter fell into the wrong hands? Uh, instead he's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "You know, he's descended from David. You, you guys, you guys know that-
Seth: Well-
David: ... that eternal throne?"
Seth: That's right.
David: "You know what I'm talking about?"
Seth: [laughs] Well, and I think the reason why that feel... Like, we're like, "What are we talking about?" It would feel like borderline treasonous-
David: Totally
Seth: ... to a Roman because the way that emperors were generally introduced was by their birth father.
David: Yep.
Seth: "Hey, I am Emperor Claudius, son of so-and-so emperor, uh, son of God."
David: Yes.
Seth: And that would be the way that they would introduce themselves and their gospel because gospel's also a, a Roman word-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that would refer to the, the victorious acts of an emperor.
David: Yes, and the proclamation of his kingship and son-of-God-ship.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yes, and now he's like, "I've got a different gospel-
Seth: That's right
David: ... about a different king."
Seth: And-
David: And it is interesting, he does the same Jew/Gentile wink-wink thing for the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... king, too. Well, whose king is he? Well, he's descended of David.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Wink, Jews.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he was also, uh... it was also according to the power of the Spirit, which is what you Gentiles have received.
Seth: That's right.
David: So same for you, too, Gentiles.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like not just flesh, according to the flesh, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... being descended from Abraham, but also descended from the spirit, being according to just, you've been reborn, born by the Spirit. So he's like, he, he keeps doing this.
Seth: He keeps doing the one-two thing.
David: Yeah, which is awesome.
Seth: And in this case, too, he's saying, "Hey, right now, Jew and Gentile are under the evil dictatorship of Rome. However, we have a higher king-
David: Yep
Seth: ... King Jesus, who is accor- who lives according to the Spirit of holiness."
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: "This is another level of king who can unite-
David: To unify, yeah
Seth: ... Jew and Gentile, that Claudius has just divided through his edicts."
David: That's right. "And there's this king, and I am his sent one, his apostle, coming to proclaim to you the proclamation-
Seth: That's right
David: ... of the gospel, which is that Jew and Gentile can be under this one different holy king."
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: And then these last phrase here, uh, "Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about..." What? What is the purpose of Paul's apostleship? What is the purpose of his gospel? "The obedience of faith," so obedience, moral transformation, being holy Christians in the world, "for the sake of his name among the nations," the inclusion of all people. So that's that Jewish-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... expectation that through the, through one holy people, one set-apart people, the whole world would be blessed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so Paul, he's like, "And I'm doing the same thing here," that, that, that Jewish logic, the covenantal logic.
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like, "I am doing this so that we might be a holy and set-apart people for the blessing of the entire world."
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is the introduction. "I'm gonna do this throughout the whole book." As you read through the Book of Romans, just keep those kind of big headings in your head, and you'll just notice obedience, faith-
David: Yep
Seth: ... holiness, the sake of the nations, Jesus is Lord and King, Jesus is the Son of David. The- you'll notice Old Testament after Old Testament after Old Testament reference. The whole thing is about the gospel, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... they're just good, big, chunky headings-
David: That's cool
Seth: ... to keep in your head.
David: Okay, so he's laid out what he's planning on doing in this passage. He's going to show the, uh, Jew and Gentile church in Rome, uh, the good news of a different king who can include diverse people-... in his kingdom and transform them into the kind of holy people who can change the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay?
Seth: Okay.
David: Dope. Love that.
Seth: He, he then kind of says, "Man, I'm really excited to come to you and visit Rome for the first time." He says that for, like, 10 verses.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then in verse 15, he says this: "So I'm eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome, because I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first, but also to the Greek. For in it," the gospel, "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith." As it is written in the Old Testament, "The righteous shall live by faith."
David: Hmm.
Seth: And so from, from my understanding, and I think most scholars' understanding, that these verses constitute the thesis of Paul's argument.
David: Interesting.
Seth: He's like, "I wanna preach to you about a gospel that reveals the power of God for the salvation of all people by faith alone. That is the central message I want to preach to you. That is the central thing that's gonna unify-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... the Jew and Gentile divisions that are happening in this church. This is the message that's gonna do it."
David: That's helpful. Uh, I- it's interesting pointing out Romans 1:16 as the thesis statement, because so often when I come across this verse or have, or, or talk to people about it, the only thing that gets pulled out of it is, "Don't be ashamed of the gospel."
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: Like, "Don't be afraid to share your faith,"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is like, that's what that verse means.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, no, actually, it's the thesis statement. [chuckles]
Seth: It's the thesis statement. And, like, I think we over-psychologize that phrase.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I'm not ashamed of the gospel." I don't think Paul is, has on top of his mind his psychological relationship to the good news of Jesus.
David: Hmm.
Seth: I think this might be, um... This is actually doing a lot of things.
David: Okay.
Seth: This is- we should actually slow down here.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, he's doing a lot more than communicating his psychological relationship-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... to the good news of Jesus.
David: Meaning, like, "Hey, I know I, I, I get scared sometimes, but you know what? I'm not. I'm not afraid. I'm, I'm not scared. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this thing. I'm gonna preach the gospel."
Seth: That's right. I don't think he's-
David: That's not what he's thinking.
Seth: I don't... I- i- if it is what he's thinking, I do not think it is the first thing he's thinking-
David: Okay
Seth: ... or the primary thing that we should take away, is like, "Hey, we should have a psychological confidence like Paul's."
David: Okay, so what's going on then?
Seth: So a few different things. Uh, well, one, "I am not ashamed" could also just mean, "I confess"-
David: Ah
Seth: ... or even that "I am bold to pronounce."
David: Is this like when Jesus says, uh, "If anyone is ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of them"?
Seth: That's right.
David: It's like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... "If anyone confesses me, I will confess them?"
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: There's, like, this- there's this more objective thing that's happening here, where it's like, "I'm not unwilling to confess the truth of the gospel."
David: Hmm.
Seth: And maybe we should talk about what the gospel is, but let's stay with-
David: Yeah, we'll stay with ashamed verse.
Seth: Let's, with the shame. So he's like, "I'm confident," or "I will claim, and I will confess the truth of the gospel."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But it's also doing something a little bit more. It's also pulling in some Old Testament language.
David: Really?
Seth: Yes. So as I read that whole thing, I, I'm just gonna highlight a couple words for you. "For I'm not ashamed of the gospel-
David: Okay
Seth: ... for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. Uh, for in it, the righteousness of God is revealed." Now, those three words sound like big words that we need to define. However, there are... Those three words appear frequently together throughout the Old Testament, particularly in the prophets.
David: Shame, salvation, and righteousness?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And in the Old Testament, when those three words are used together, they are generally talking about the shame of exile-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... the salvation of the destruction of Babylon, God's saving power, His righteousness being revealed, and sending Jews back to their homeland.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like, Him being faithful to His covenant promises, saving them from Babylonian power, and reversing their shame.
David: Hmm.
Seth: If you wanna look up in Isaiah 42 and a lot of the Psalms, like, this is the way that the Old Testament writers think about God's saving actions on behalf of the people of God. "Hey, we are in a situation of shame, that through God's power, He can save us from and be faithful to His promises-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... to bring us back to our covenant relationship with Him."
David: So let me, let me try something here.
Seth: Yes.
David: So when Paul says, "I am not ashamed," uh, he's writing to a group of technically exiled Christians. They're, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they're, they're living in the new Babylon-
Seth: They are
David: ... Rome, and he's saying, uh, "I know you probably feel the shame of exile right now-"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: ".... but I'm not ashamed."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why? "Because I have the salvation of God. I've experienced rescue from exile-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and have been given the righteousness that comes from a restoration to the homeland of Israel." But he's not in the temple. He's not... That's not what he, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's a different kind of-
Seth: It's a different kind of thing
David: ... of, of salvation that he's talking about here.
Seth: That's right.
David: And that's what he wants, that's the gospel he wants to proclaim to them.
Seth: Right, so let's talk about-
David: Okay
Seth: ... what is the gospel according to Paul?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, "I'm eager to preach the gospel to you." What is the gospel? Well, he actually just said it in verse four: "Concerning his Son, who has descended from David, the messianic king, ac- according to the flesh, and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead." What is the gospel content Paul's already given us here? There's a better king than Caesar.
David: Hmm.
Seth: There is Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, who reigns above all powers and all authorities, and that happened through his death and resurrection.
David: Hmm.
Seth: "I'm eager to preach to you about the ascension of the true King of the cosmos, Jesus Christ.
David: Hmm.
Seth: I am not ashamed of the exile we are currently experiencing in Roman oppression-
David: Yes
Seth: ... because in the gospel, in the resurrection of Jesus to a throne above Caesar's, the power of God for salvation from exile has been revealed for all who believe it."
David: ... preach!
Seth: Right? [chuckles] This happened to the Jew first, and we can come back to that phrase, and also the Greek, but for in it, the saving power of God is revealed.
David: Mm.
Seth: The power to rescue us from the Roman system that we're in.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But also more generally, the powers of sin and death that come with living in a world that is not God's world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think Rome c- you can overemphasize Rome's role as the bad guy here, 'cause Rome is energized by a power greater than that.
David: Right.
Seth: The power of sin and the power of death-
David: Right
Seth: ... which Ro- Paul will go on to talk about these as the greater powers that we are liberated from.
David: Mm.
Seth: And God has ascended His Son above the powers of Rome, sin, and death. His saving power is accessed by faith alone, from faith, for faith, and we all get it.
David: It, it's interesting, too, when, when we think about exile as Paul is talking to a blended audience. Because typically, when you, when you pull on the thread of exile in the Old Testament, it is Jew versus Gentile.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Right?
Seth: That is right.
David: The Jews have gone into exile among the nations-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and that's been the pattern.
Seth: That's right.
David: And now he's writing to Jew and Gentile, and lumping them all in, and saying, "You're all exiled, but we don't have to be ashamed."
Seth: That's right.
David: And you c- I think you could feel the Jew and the Gentile feeling scandalized by that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The Jew feeling scandalized, "How dare you include the nations in our exile? They are our, our exiler." [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: "They're the ones doing the exiling. What are you talking about?" And then you could feel the Gentile being scandalized by saying, "This is our homeland."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "We're not ashamed. I'm Roman."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I grew up in Rome."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I'm not in exile. What are you talking about?" He's like, "Yeah, but you need to be saved from the power of sin and death."
Seth: Right, which is why Paul will go on in the next sections to talk about the way that both Gentiles, both non-Jews and Jews, have been totally obliterated and mastered by sin's deception.
David: Mm.
Seth: Both of them, how are entirely controlled by the power of sin and the destruction and death that it causes. That's the argument he makes in the rest of chapter one and all of chapter two. "You guys are both in exile to your sin."
David: Mm.
Seth: And we, we can talk about that in the next episode, but-
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes.
David: So that's, that's the... We've got the table of contents, and we've got the thesis statement of the book. To close us out, what... Like, bring this to today for us.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And there, there's this lens of the Gospel that we're saying Paul's setting up here, and it's this gospel of freedom from exile, salvation from exile, and righteousness, which is, I guess, the other thing we haven't quite talked about yet.
Seth: Yeah, we can talk about that.
David: But, like, what does all this mean? What is, what is this gospel that Paul is preaching, that Jesus brings to us, that, I- maybe is the unique set of lenses that we should put on for Romans?
Seth: Yeah. I think as we start to zoom out and think about the argument that Paul is about to, to engage with, there is a king who is reigning above the greatest emperor in the world.
David: Mm, Caesar.
Seth: Caesar. And larger than Caesar, sin.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And larger, and, like, and alongside sin, death. And we, in a very real way, are trapped under their power, and we know that viscerally, psychologically-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... morally. We know that we are not able to obey God like we want.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We know by virtue of seeing His designs in the world, that we fall short of His commands. We know that we fall short of our own standards we set for ourselves and others, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I said, I tell my daughter one thing, and I do the same thing back to her five minutes later, right? [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, I am a morally corrupt person.
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, I think G.K. Chesterton talks about the only doctrine in Christianity that you can prove empirically is the doctrine of sin.
David: Right.
Seth: Of like, we are all- this is-
David: Just look at it.
Seth: Just, like, look, you can see that our world is broken-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, on an individual level, and obviously on a global level, uh, with any conflict. [chuckles]
David: Yes.
Seth: Or, or 24/7 media. Like, it's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the depravity of man is so self-evident.
David: Mm-hmm, and as is the consequence-
Seth: Right
David: ... death.
Seth: So we are trapped in that system.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We are trapped in a system that is ruled by sin and death, and we know it. So what hope do we have? That there's a king above it, and-
David: Who died
Seth: ... who died-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... under it!
David: Under sin and death.
Seth: And rose above it.
David: Beat it.
Seth: He beat it. And Paul says here, "For in it," that action-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of rising and conquering, "the righteousness of God is revealed."
David: Mm.
Seth: So the righteousness of God, I think what he means here is, like, God's saving power. His power to beat death and sin was revealed.
David: Yes, because righteousness can also be translated as justice.
Seth: That's right.
David: Judging.
Seth: That's right.
David: Bringing punishment or judgment.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's a synonym. They're the same-
Seth: That's right
David: ... the same Greek word underneath righteousness.
Seth: Yeah, yes, yes.
David: Sometimes it gets translated as justice-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, and here it might be better translated that way.
Seth: Yeah, his saving power to rescue people from sin and the consequence of death, right?
David: Yeah, to judge sin and death and save His people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that word, word is "revealed."
David: Mm.
Seth: We know it better as apocalypse.
David: Oh.
Seth: It's an apocalypse-
David: It's a, a revealing.
Seth: And a revealing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: An apocalypse of God's saving power.
David: Mm.
Seth: So in the cross, what do we have? We have a definitive defeat of sin's power, but we also have the continued revealing of what will happen for all believers throughout time-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who live in a world that is dominated by the power of sin and death.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, and how do we gain access to that? Not by moral effort, not by ethnic inclusion-
David: Mm
Seth: ... not by a certain level of comfort with the Roman power structure of the day, by virtue of our Roman citizenship, but by, by faith and for faith. From faith-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... first to last.
David: So that's that, that strange phrase-
Seth: From faith, for faith.
David: From faith, for faith.
Seth: It's like a lot of Hebrew authors, when they, like, when they double words-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it's for emphasis.
David: Emphasis.
Seth: So that's what I think Paul's doing here. He's like, "From faith, for faith." From faith, first to last. The beginning and ending of our inclusion of God's saving power is given to us. We experience it-
David: ... by faith. It's kind of like when Jesus says, "Amen, amen. Truly, truly."
Seth: That's right.
David: Or I- some modern translators say it, "Very truly, I say to you."
Seth: Very truly, that's right.
David: It's just an emphasis-
Seth: That's right
David: ... from faith for faith. It's faith all the way through. It's uncut.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Unmixed, unalloyed.
Seth: So in- if you are feeling the weight of a broken world, and a broken, in, in your own inability to escape the powers of the broken world, relate to your children, and your wife, and your neighbors the way that you know that you should, there is a conquering king who has risen above it, and you can join in his conquering by believing in him.
David: Mm.
Seth: By trusting him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: By having faith in him.
David: And what's amazing about that, too, thinking about how this thesis statement fits in with the table of contents that we saw earlier, and the overall story of the one, two step of first Jew, then Gentile, is yes, we are talking about salvation from death. We are talking about wh- what most Christians think about when they think of the word salvation. That one day-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you'll be raised from the dead like Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and you will live with him forever, and you will defeat death, and you will taste the resurrection that Jesus tasted.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's talking about that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he's also talking about this obedience [lips smack] of, uh, of faith for the sake of the nations.
Seth: Yes.
David: That not only did he defeat death, but he defeats sin in your life, and your inability to actually live in accordance with the way God made the world. But as you put your belief in this king, he morally transforms your life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and you start living in a way that brings his kingdom to the nations around you.
Seth: That's right.
David: And your world today is changed, as well as your world forever.
Seth: Another way to say the same thing is to talk about the three different ways you can even understand that word righteousness.
David: Mm.
Seth: We talked about as righteousness as saving power.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We've talked about righteousness as God's justice being done. But righteousness also just has the very basic connotation of holiness.
David: Moral goodness.
Seth: Moral goodness, and I think Paul doesn't mean to... I think he has an, a distinct emphasis he wants to bring here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But righteousness was also an intentional choice.
David: 'Cause he could have used the word punishment.
Seth: Because-
David: He could have used freedom, he could have used the other word.
Seth: He could have used the... Yeah, for, and that God's power was revealed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, he could've done a lot of things, but he's using it because he wants to evoke all of those meanings.
David: Mm.
Seth: God has saved us by his power. He has given us a righteousness that was his only, and he is making us righteous by his resurrection, and death on the cross.
David: That's very cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Man, okay, that's actually really helpful. Getting through all the background, understanding the situation, both biblically, as the story of, like, the Jew first, then the Gentile.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, the God's heart to rescue the nations, and then also the understanding what was going on in Rome with, you know, the, the Jewish exodus, and then them coming back in, and all the tension that create, and then the table of contents, thesis statement, all really helpful framing for this.
Seth: Good.
David: So next episode, we're gonna be able to talk through this argument that Paul makes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the sustained conversation.
Seth: I think maybe instead of taking a thematic approach to the book, I think we should just like, "Hey, let's go chapter by chapter, showing what Paul is trying to communicate." And so for the next two hours or so, let's just walk through.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What is Paul trying to do in each one of these things? How is he unpacking the Gospel, that Jesus is King over the powers of sin and death, so that all people can be included in his new kingdom?
David: Mm. Perfect.
Seth: Well, yeah.
David: Thank you, guys, for joining us for our introduction to the Book of Romans. We're excited to continue this journey with you, so tune in next time, and we'll see you then. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
