Seth: [gentle music] So what Paul says is that what God has done to the Gentile world, the non-Jewish world, when they have made this decision, is he gives them over to the delusion of worshiping death.
David: I see.
Seth: And like, if you-
David: If that's, if that's how you wanna live, I'm gonna let you live that way.
Seth: If you wanna pursue and worship things that die, and things that do not bring life, I will let you do so-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... until your own destruction.
David: It's going... Yeah, you're gonna worship death, and you're gonna become w- become like death.
Seth: That's right.
David: You're gonna die.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our journey through the Book of Romans. Uh, last week we kind of did all the introduction. We looked at the situation, the context, who is Paul, what was going on in the church in Rome, what was gone, going on in Rome itself, and we looked at the table of contents that opens up the first chapter of Romans, as well as Paul's thesis statement. And today, we're gonna start tracing Paul's argument through the whole Book of Romans, and hearing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Gospel.
Seth: That's right.
David: Which I'm very excited about. So, uh, how would you recap what we talked about last time, especially when it comes to, like, what's going on in Rome, and the gospel that they need to hear?
Seth: Yeah, the beginning of the argument-
David: Yes
Seth: ... before the first proofs of it.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like the thesis statement. Yeah, well, I think-
David: What's the thesis statement?
Seth: ... what Paul said is that he- the gospel is the power of God for salvation. So in the death and resurrection of Jesus, and his ascension to his throne as the cosmic Lord of the universe, he, his salvation over the powers of empire, of sin, and death, have been fully and finally demonstrated.
David: Mm.
Seth: And we can have access to that victory over the powers of sin, death, and empire, by faith.
David: Mm.
Seth: By nothing else but faith. And so the first thing that Paul is going to prove in his argument is that both non-Jewish people and Jewish people are ruled by the power of sin.
David: Mm.
Seth: That they are under the domain of sin and death, and need a salvation from it, a rescue from it, by God's saving power.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so that's the first thing he does.
David: Okay, and so, a- and also as a matter of just trying to get our minds back in the story here, why is the gospel of a cosmic king, who can bring a rescue from earthly powers, sin, and death, why is that the gospel that Paul is emphasizing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to a Jew-Gentile contentious church in Rome?
Seth: Yes. I mean, I think very contextually, you could say that you have a Roman emperor who has artificially separated Jew and Gentile, and pushed them back together as a matter of imperial policy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You say, "Hey, there is a bigger and badder power, namely Jesus, who is uniting us, not dividing us."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And the cultural forces, and even the... And some of the ethnic battle lines that you've drawn for yourself, are not determinative. What's most determinative is our inclusion in the family of God, and the salvation that he's accomplished through Jesus Christ."
David: That's good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he's like, wants to level the playing field, in a sense.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, and say, "Hey, we are not primarily defined by our ethnic categories, or our, our status as imperial occupants-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but under the reign of Jesus Christ."
David: That's really helpful. Okay, and so you said that the first kind of groundwork that he has to lay out here was what? What's his first argument that we're gonna talk about?
Seth: We're all under the power of sin and death.
David: That we're all under the power of sin and death.
Seth: And that we need [chuckles] to be rescued by God's saving power from it. [chuckles]
David: Okay. And the reason he's doing that, to prove this point-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is to make them feel, I guess, like, how bad things are, before he talks... Before we hear about how good the King is?
Seth: You could-
David: Like, you need to know how oppressed you are before you can know how free you are, or why is he starting here?
Seth: You could probably say it that way.
David: You could- [chuckles]
Seth: Like, yeah. [laughs]
David: Let me help you here, though, David.
Seth: Um-
David: There's more than one valid way to do it. [chuckles]
Seth: But he... [chuckles] I mean, people have said Paul is offering us a systematic theology-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or he's giving us, like, his entire theology. Like, you know, like, this systemic portrait of how people are saved before God-
David: Sure
Seth: ... and included in his family. I think maybe a, a better way to say it is that, like, he wants to explain from the very beginning why we all need Jesus. [chuckles]
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's not, maybe not so much about making us feel worse in order to feel better, but reminding us all where we have come from, and what Jesus has done for us.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is it, is it that, um, in order for the Jews and Gentiles to, uh, both come under King Jesus united-
Seth: Mm
David: ... they need to understand that they're both on the same footing?
Seth: Yeah.
David: They, they both started at the same place, which was destitute, sinful, under death, and in need.
Seth: That's right.
David: And it's like, you guys can argue about who was first, and who has the revelation, and who's more moral, and whose city this is.
Seth: But-
David: Can we just say you're all under sin and death-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and we all start on square one together?
Seth: Right. That's exactly right.
David: We... Yeah, that's, that's good.
Seth: Somebody might have the law, somebody might not, but that's irrelevant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because we were all dead-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... s- trapped by our sinful desires, under the power of sin, and needed to be rescued.
David: It's a, it's a, it's a Christian theological way of the, like, the common phrase we get today, which is like, "Hey, we're all human."
Seth: ... Yeah, that's right.
David: We're all human. We can start there.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's a good starting point-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and it levels the playing field.
Seth: That's right.
David: We're all human.
Seth: Yeah, that's good.
David: Okay, so that's where he's starting.
Seth: That's where he's starting.
David: We're all human, and it sucks. [laughing]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that what- [laughing]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that the right oversight? [laughing]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he begins by talking about how God's wrath or his justice against human evil has been poured out on the unrighteousness, the, the immorality of Gentile culture, and that's the first thing he's gonna do. He's gonna attack and level the Gentile culture and said, "Hey, the Gentile cu- culture is ruled by sin and death."
David: Mm.
Seth: His argument is, is fairly simple. He says, "God created the world with a particular wisdom and design in mind, and that design and wisdom is clearly evident to people who are paying attention-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that the world is a created place, that the world has a particular order to it, and the way that life works is fairly evident. However, on the whole, Gentile culture has refused to believe that there is one creator, God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that has designed his world in a particular way that is meant to be obeyed, and instead, started worshiping things within the world. They worshiped beasts and cows and-
David: Mm
Seth: ... creeping, crawling things. They worshiped the sun. They worshiped anything.
David: Caesar.
Seth: Caesar.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Other than the true creator of the universe-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the true creator and designer of the universe.
David: Mm.
Seth: So this is the way Gentile religion generally works. Okay?
David: Okay. Is there a, is there an example you can give of, like, "Here's how God reveals himself and his wisdom in the world?" Uh, it's like it makes sense. You should live this way because it's evident in how God made the world, but then look at Gentile culture, they're not doing it.
Seth: I mean, the way Paul says it is in verse 20.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, "For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they," meaning the Gentile world, "are without excuse because even though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him but became futile in their, their thinking." Is that answering your question? Like, that's the way that Paul is stating the problem. It's like they are-
David: Yeah, it's just, it's just all-
Seth: ... refusing to honor.
David: Yeah, it's just kinda all abstract.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like, what do we mean here? That, like, the life cycle of grass teaches us something about how God operates-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and we're like, "No, that, I don't wanna do that. I wanna go worship a cow instead." Like-
Seth: Okay. Yeah, yeah
David: ... those aren't talking to each other for me.
Seth: Okay, Paul is gonna do this for us-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in probably a way that makes a lot of us uncomfortable.
David: Oh, great!
Seth: Uh, uh- [laughing]
David: Can't wait.
Seth: Can't wait. So let's think about the Genesis story.
David: Okay.
Seth: God creates a world full of generative life. Everything-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... bears fruit after its own kind.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right.
David: He, he creates seed-bearing plants, and their seeds create the same kind of plants-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and their seeds create the same kind of plants.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Propagation of life.
Seth: Propagation of life, and the one command Adam and Eve are given is to, like, be fruitful and multiply.
David: Make babies.
Seth: The design of the world is one of fruitfulness-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and abundance.
David: Yep.
Seth: And there seems to be Paul saying that that intention and design for fruitfulness and abundance is hamstrung by Gentile religions and Gentile culture. He says that begins with choosing to honor created things over the life-giving thing, things that have an end on the earth rather than the thing that is above all things.
David: Oh, okay, so there, what you're saying is, "Look at the world. Can't you tell it's a created place?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "But you're not looking for ch- like, a creator to worship"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "you're worshiping what was created."
Seth: That's right.
David: "And so the world should have told you that there's something outside of creation-
Seth: Right
David: ... 'cause it's so beautiful and so complex."
Seth: And something that gives life outside of creation because he says here, "You exchange the glory of the immortal God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for images resembling mortal man."
David: Ah, obviously, there's a life-giver with perpetual life outside of this system, but you're just worshiping everything that dies.
Seth: That's right.
David: What are you doing?
Seth: That's right.
David: Don't you know there's something better? Okay.
Seth: And so what, so what Paul says is that what God has done w- to the Gentile world, the non-Jewish world, when they have made this decision, is he gives them over to the delusion of worshiping death.
David: I see.
Seth: And, like, if you-
David: If that's, if that's how you wanna live, I'm gonna let you live that way.
Seth: If you wanna pursue and worship things that die and things that do not bring life, I will let you do so-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... until your own destruction.
David: It's going... Yeah, you're gonna worship death, and you're gonna become w- become like death.
Seth: That's right.
David: You're gonna die.
Seth: And so what Paul is saying is that the Gentile world is ruled by a culture of death under the power of sin.
David: I see.
Seth: God has confirmed-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that sinful direction of rejecting God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and made it so that inevitably, the Gentile world will tend towards destruction and death because they worship things that don't bring life.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: They worship things that die.
David: God made a self-propagating, seed-bearing, life-creating world-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the Gentile world has pursued death-bringing, [chuckles] mortal-ending-
Seth: That's right
David: ... non-life things.
Seth: That's right.
David: And therefore, it will inevitably end because it's not propagating itself.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, I think I follow that.
Seth: Yeah, and so this is why Paul... And this is where it gets uncomfortable for us. This is why Paul ends this conversation by talking about male and female homosexuality.
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause he uses them as these paradigmatic examples of a denial of the creator, of the life-giving creator, and the reason he, he does that is because they are relationships that essentially deify the creation, deifying something that dies, but also, it's a relationship that is unable to give life, no matter what-
David: Uh, bi- biological.
Seth: Biological.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There is no biological way for that relationship to bring and reflect the life-giving designs of the creator.
David: Mm.
Seth: So that's why he uses it as an example of the, like, ultimate death that Gentile culture will produce because it worships-... and ends up giving credence to a basic human relationship that cannot produce life.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so that's why he talks about homosexuality in the logic of Romans 1.
David: Okay, so yes, I think I understand what's happening here. God has revealed himself in how he made the world. It's a life-giving world, but we've chosen, uh, or I guess we, the Gentile world there, has chosen things that produce death, and they are deifying created things to their own destruction.
Seth: Right, and God-
David: Okay
Seth: ... confirms that. He's like, he's like, he hands them over to it, and so there's this real active sense that God has, like, put a limiter on the top of them. They cannot go backwards anymore.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I would say that that's the power of sin. Like, sin prevents them from accessing the life-giving God anymore, and only produces increasing death over time-
David: Mm
Seth: ... until their own destruction. So this handing over, well, by God, is the power of sin. He hands the Gentile cultures over to the power of sin until their own death.
David: Yeah, and I guess that's a hard logic to argue with, because like, "Hey, look at your entire life."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Does anything you do help you escape death itself?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, "Well, no, I guess not."
Seth: And I think even more viscerally, doesn't our culture seem to celebrate things that bring about death-
David: Mm
Seth: ... over time? Like, I think that's kind of clear from a lot of things [chuckles] in our world.
David: Right.
Seth: So his argument is, "Isn't it clear that the Gentile world is under the power of sin and death, and that there's no escape from it?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's the argument-
David: Yep
Seth: ... all the way to the end of chapter 1.
David: That makes sense. And so the Jews in the audience then are thinking like, "Yeah!" "Go get 'em, Paul."
Seth: "Go get 'em, Paul. You got it. We have the... We've got, we've got the law. We know how to live. All, all of our ways of being are completely in line with how God made the world. Looks like-
David: That is an accurate representation of the mor- immorality of Gentile culture.
Seth: That's right. It's like, "I've been saying this to everybody-
David: Right, that's right
Seth: ... in my synagogue." [laughs]
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: All the Jews... I've been telling all the Gentiles, they need to get their act straight.
David: And so does Paul turn the knife on the Jews? [chuckles]
Seth: He does turn the knife on the Jews, and he ba- and he condemns them through chapter, uh, 2. Essentially, one, it's like, "Hey, you passed judgment on these immoral Gentiles, right? But you're guilty of the same exact sins that the Gentile world is." And then he goes on and gives, um, just example after example about how Jewish people in general have abandoned God's commands and do the same immoral things.
David: Mm.
Seth: He, his, basically, his first charge is hypocrisy. It's like, "Hey, yeah, you condemn them, but aren't Jewish people just as guilty of the immorality they see in the Greek world?"
David: Yep.
Seth: And then everyone has to say, "Yeah, I guess."
David: "Yeah, I guess we do." It's like, "Yeah, we do-
Seth: "I guess you're right"
David: ... these other good identity marker things, but I guess we also do the bad things that we judge them for."
Seth: Right.
David: Being a hypocrite's fun.
Seth: Yeah, so Paul basically calls them hypocrites, but then he actually says that Jewish people actually might be more culpable before God.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he says, like, "Hey, the Gentile world did not have a written, revealed code about how they should behave among one another or in relationship to God. You did. God wro- wrote down for you a whole bunch of laws-
David: Mm
Seth: ... about how to relate to him, how to relate to one another, how to relate to your governments."
David: So the Gentiles had creation to look at. "Don't s- don't seeds... Don't, don't, like, don't plants that grow bear seeds after its own kind? That should kind of show you something about how to live your life in accordance with the biological way God made the world."
Seth: Yes.
David: They had to infer those things through general revelation of nature, but the Jews have written down laws that tell you exactly what God wants.
Seth: That's right.
David: "So you guys had it a little more clear, and you still broke the law."
Seth: Right, "So if anything, you're more culpable-
David: I see
Seth: ... before God." And his point here is he's like, "You're not exempt from any of the morality of the Gentile world. You might actually be more culpable."
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think there's probably a sense that Jewish people believed that, like, by the fact of having a law just made them a little bit better than the rest of the world, right?
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, "Hey, we have God's revealed will."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "We have... God has communicated to us, not the non-Jews of the world." And so there could be a temptation in that moment to say, like, "Hey, we don't keep it perfectly, but at least we have the law."
David: That's right. Not to push buttons unnecessarily here-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but it is an interesting-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, allegory, is I think we can do the same thing as Westerners, uh, with democracy or something.
Seth: Okay, yeah.
David: And we look at, at lawless lands, you know-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that are ruled by dictatorship or bribery or whatever, and like, "Oh, man, it's just so messy over there, and everything's just controlled through bribes and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... pride, and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, it's like we have the power of the people, and we have a democracy." But then you look behind the curtain, and it's like, everyone's being paid off. Everyone's being bribed, ev-
Seth: We just call 'em lobbyists. [laughs]
David: Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And it's like, it's the same thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, but we have the law.
Seth: Right.
David: We have a good s- law system.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like, yeah, but you're guilty of all the same stuff.
Seth: That's right.
David: And actually, you've, you've identified the fact that you know better, and you've put checks and balances to guard against these things, and yet you still do them.
Seth: Right.
David: So aren't you more culpable-
Seth: Yes
David: ... than those who just, like, don't have the law system?
Seth: Yes.
David: So it's, it's, it's an interesting allegory.
Seth: That's right, and then Paul will say, "You might take pride in the fact that you have this superior law-
David: Right
Seth: ... but that means nothing if you break any of it." So he says this in verse 25. So the, the, like, the most characteristic command of the Old Testament is circumcision, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he says this: "For circumcision indeed is of value" ... That's a good law-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "if you obey the law. But if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision." He's like, "Hey, like, that is a good thing, right?"
David: Right.
Seth: "But if you break the law, your... That doesn't mean anything anymore."
David: Yeah, it, it-
Seth: It invalidates it
David: ... it's a good thing to, uh, pay your income tax. That will keep you out of prison.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But if you murder someone-... your, it doesn't matter that you paid your income tax, you're still going to prison. [laughs]
Seth: Yes, that's right. That's right. So-
David: But I paid my income tax! [laughs]
Seth: ... it, it's like, it is a fine, whatever. Yeah, it's not gonna-
David: You still broke the law.
Seth: You still broke the law, and your law- the law in that moment, your special status as the recipients of God's commands, doesn't save you or excuse you from your culpability under God's-
David: That's right
Seth: ... justice.
David: But I'm a tax-paying US citizen, who cares if I murdered someone?
Seth: That's right.
David: Doesn't that mean I get out of jail free?
Seth: Yes.
David: No, you're a lawbreaker-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and your, uh, citizenship standing and past deeds do not invalidate your lawbreaking.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then he goes on to say in this moment, too, he's like, "In fact, I think most Jews would agree that, like, if somebody was uncircumcised, but ended up keeping all of God's laws, you would actually consider them a true Jew, right?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: "A true member of God's covenant family, even if they hadn't done that one thing yet." And they would be like, "Yeah, probably. Like, they still need to do that, but-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... they are acting as if they are in line with God's will and designs-
David: Mm
Seth: ... even though they don't have the physical marker that would indicate that they are such.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: So what he's doing in this moment, he's like, he's just relativizing the importance of the law-
David: Or of those identity markers.
Seth: Of those identity markers, and how your culpability before God is increased or decreased.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The fact that you are a member of the community that received the law, does nothing to in- increase or decrease your culpability before a just God. Like, what increases or decreases your culpability before a just God, is whether or not you obey His designs.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: That's right.
Seth: Whether you're circumcised or not, whether you're a part of that covenant community or not.
David: Yep.
Seth: What matters in front of a just, holy, pure God, is whether you're just, pure, and holy.
David: Okay, so I'm listening to this in this, uh, Roman church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm hearing this letter, and I'm a pretty good guy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I... It doesn't matter if I'm Jew or, or Gentile, I don't even think that way. I was like, "Oh, man, he nailed, he nailed it"
Seth: I don't side, I don't, [laughs]
David: I don't, I don't side-
Seth: I just see Jewishness. [laughs]
David: ... I'm, I'm, I'm Jewish-blind.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I don't, I don't do that. And so it's like we, uh... He's like, "Okay, yep, I don't do any of that stuff that the Gentiles got called out for doing. Um, uh, I don't do any of the things the Jews got called out for doing. I think I'm actually what you just said. Like, my culpability to law-breaking is based on my moral standing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, like, if I do what God says to do, I actually think I did a pretty good job"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Where... Is He gonna come after me, too?" [laughs]
Seth: He d- He doesn't assume anyone's as prideful as you are. [laughs]
David: Oh, good! That's good.
Seth: He, uh, he will, uh, he- I think Paul, by this point of the argument, thinks he's got everybody under his gun. Like, everybody should feel like they are sinful before a holy God. However, he does go on, in chapter 3, to summarize this argument, and he says this: "No one is righteous."
David: Oh, man.
Seth: "No one, no. No one. Not one. No one understands. No one seeks God."
David: What about me, though? No one?
Seth: "All have turned aside-
David: Okay
Seth: ... together, they have become worthless. No one does good, not even one." So I guess he does address you, this-
David: I was baiting that question. [laughs]
Seth: ... The, the proud one. Um, but I think this functions as a summary-
David: A summary
Seth: ... not as an extra poke-
David: Okay, okay
Seth: ... at the, at the extremely proud.
David: That's true.
Seth: But, uh-
David: He's like, "I've talked about all people now, 'cause I talked about Jews and Gentiles."
Seth: Yes.
David: "So now I can say as a summary, no one is righteous."
Seth: That's right.
David: "We're all underneath the power of sin and death, and need a savior."
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And during this point of the conversation, Paul kinda interrupts the flow of the conversation about universal human culpability before-
David: Mm
Seth: ... a just God, by speaking to his Jewish brothers and sisters in the audience.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he's imagining, like, "Okay, if the law doesn't do anything to increase or decrease our culpability before God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what good is it being Jewish at all, then?"
David: Right.
Seth: If being Jewish, being circumcised, receiving the law, is supposed to mark a special relationship with God, if all that really mattered was obedience, what good is it being Jewish? What good is it being a part of the community that received the law? Like, what-
David: Totally
Seth: ... what good is that?
David: And what good is obeying if I can't obey perfectly enough to... Uh, no one's righteous.
Seth: Yes.
David: What's the point in obedience?
Seth: Yes, so you have two big questions.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The question that I posed, so the, the tangent that he do-
David: Mm
Seth: ... goes on from 3, chapter 1 through 8. He's gonna start a conversation he's not gonna finish until later, but basically what he says, like, "No, Jew- being part of the Jewish community is a great thing, uh, actually. There's many benefits to being Jewish." And he basically lists the fact that the good news of God's blessing to the world, came to the Jew first.
David: Right.
Seth: It's, "You got the prophets, you got the promises of the Messiah, you got the Holy Scriptures, you had God's divine revelation. You are the people that God saved from Egypt." He's like, "Hey, God's saving actions have been concentrated, at first, among the Jewish people. There is great benefit to being a part of the Jewish community."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "However, that doesn't invalidate my point that I said about Jewish culpability before the law." So does, does that make sense?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I just-
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's, like, fencing, and saying, "Hey, guys, it's still good to be Jewish."
David: Yes.
Seth: "It's not ultimate to be Jewish-
David: Right
Seth: ... but it's good to be Jewish."
David: Right, yes. That makes sense.
Seth: Uh, okay.
David: Yep.
Seth: So he's like, "Okay, it's good to be Jewish-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but not ultimate. But what do we do with humanity's total inability-
David: Right
Seth: ... to obey the law?"
David: It's like, "Okay, I, apparently, I knew what I should've done, and I didn't do it, and I guess even if I knew it, and I had it revealed to me, I still wouldn't do it. So... And no one's righteous-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so how do I escape this sin and death thing?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I'm, uh... Am I just hopeless?"
Seth: So Paul says it this way in verse 20 of chapter 3, "For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in His sight. Since through the law comes the knowledge of sin." The point is, like, "Hey, no one's gonna get it right."
David: Yep.
Seth: Verse 21, "But now, the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it. The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, for all-"... who believe. There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ. So-
David: Okay, yep. So, so there's two level playing fields he's doing with these words-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... all.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There is no distinction. You guys are obsessed with distinctions.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Jew, Gentile, Roman, Jewish, like-
Seth: Yes.
David: There's no distinction. All have sinned and fallen short. I've proven it to you through the general revelation of nature, and the specific revelation of the Torah.
Seth: Yes.
David: All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But now also all-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we get introduced to this new idea, or not new idea, he set it up in the thesis.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But all are justified freely by Jesus.
Seth: That's right.
David: So talk about that.
Seth: Yeah, so he says, "For now, the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law." So what is he, is he talking about here? So we talked about the righteousness of God in the first episode.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We talked about three ways that you can understand the righteousness of God.
David: Right.
Seth: The righteousness of God can be God's saving power, to rescue somebody from the power of death. It could also mean, like, the gift of being considered righteous, like, you are now a member of God's family despite what you deserve.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It could also mean, like, a moral righteousness.
David: Right.
Seth: The moral righteousness of God. So what I think he's talking about here is, "Okay, we've established that there is no right standing before God based on your perception of the natural order, or your comparative standing up to the law-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to the, the Hebrew law, because everyone's broken both co- both of them, right?
David: Right.
Seth: You've misunderstood and worshiped created things, or you took... You did one thing, like circumcision, but didn't do the thing about adultery. The law has done nothing for you.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Both are equally culpable. However, the righteousness of God, being in right standing with God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... being given and granted access to God himself, has been manifested apart from any of our obedience by Jesus Christ.
David: Mm.
Seth: Am I making sense?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Am I making sense here?
David: You're making sense, yeah.
Seth: Like, there's, like, so much, like, assumptions that Paul is making, so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I wanted to make sure that we're communicating here. The righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. You asked the question, what good is it to continue trying-
David: That's right
Seth: ... if I can't do any of the things the law commands?
David: Yeah, I can't be made right with God, I can't achieve moral righteousness, and I can't bring the justice of God to bear on my world.
Seth: Right.
David: I can't do any three of the definitions of righteousness-
Seth: Right
David: ... by obeying out of my own-
Seth: That's right
David: ... ability.
Seth: And Paul says, like, "Hey, you're asking the wrong question."
David: Mm.
Seth: "It's not about what you can do according to any of the standards that we know about. It's about what Jesus Christ has done, and whether or not we have faith in him."
David: I get what you're saying. I think we need to unpack that.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, how does... What, what did Jesus do-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that accomplished the righteousness of God, is the first question.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then how does our faith in that bring about an effect?
Seth: So for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We got that under, we got that.
David: We got that one.
Seth: Here's what Jesus did, "And are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." That's the phrase that we're talking about now.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, how did he do it?
David: Yep.
Seth: He did it by justifying us by his grace as a gift.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the word justification is a really important theological concept, but it means to be declared innocent in God's divine courtroom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We've been talking about moral culpability before God. What's happening in this moment is, through Jesus' death and resurrection, God looks at us, and he once said, "Hey, guilty."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "You are guilty of a culture of death. You are guilty of hypocrisy. You're guilty of abandoning the law. You're more morally culpable than everybody else because of X, Y, and Z reason." But because of what Jesus did in his death and resurrection, you are now no longer held liable for the culpability of your past, right?
David: No longer held liable.
Seth: You are no longer considered guilty. You have been declared-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... righteous.
David: I think we haven't quite talked about-
Seth: Yes
David: ... maybe the wages of sin is death part enough-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to make that culpability, the liability, make sense.
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Because we d- well, the only way we've talked about death so far is as a natural outworking of sin in the Gentiles-
Seth: Okay
David: ... where it's like they-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they don't do life-giving things, so they end up dying.
Seth: Yes.
David: What are these wages of sin-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... that is death thing? Where is that coming from?
Seth: So we talked about how, like, when God hands the Gentile world over-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to their desires for death, they are eventually killed.
David: That's right.
Seth: Sin leads to death, and that same thing is true in the j- the, the Hebrew story, too. They were given a law, but sin took over, and they disobeyed that law, and just like the Gentile world, Jews have died under the power of sin.
David: And even in the law, it told them that that was gonna ha-
Seth: That's right
David: ... well, it was gonna be what happened. If you break this, you're gonna die.
Seth: And what, the way that death looked historically was their exile to Babylon-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and to Assyria, and their conquering by foreign powers.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: Like, because their special relationship with God centered around a nation, their death was national in a lot of ways. It was individual as well-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but, like, there was this-
David: It was separation from their life-giving God.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Through, through exile. So both the Jewish story and the Gentile story ends in death.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so we need a solution that makes us no- no longer morally culpable of the consequence, death, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yes.
David: Making us to where we don't just breed death with the way we live-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... bringing about the natural consequences of death-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but also not breaking the design and commands of God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... which he has said in his law, demand death-
Seth: Yes
David: ... from a, a justice standpoint.
Seth: From a just- yes, that's right.
David: Okay, I think I'm understanding that.
Seth: And so what Jesus did was he died. Even though he was... I mean, there's a lot he's assuming here-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but we can talk about, like, the legal aspects to how this works, but Paul's assuming all this. He's saying that when, that moment when Jesus died, as a representative for all people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he'll talk about this in the coming chapters, and then rose from the dead, he was proving that he has power over death.... which is the consequence of sin.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So if, and Jesus, in his resurrection, can defeat the weapon of sin-
David: Right
Seth: ... which is death, that means there's a way out of the power of sin and death.
David: Yes, and the only way for me to get it is if he gives it to me as a gift.
Seth: That's right.
David: So I think a helpful way for me to think about this, since we've been talking for the last two episodes about kingship, and you have, like, this, this Caesar king, who's really powerful, and let's say you are a peasant in Rome, and you really want a, I don't know, a sh- a sheep pen for your house.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, you want a place to keep your sheep.
Seth: Yes.
David: But you're really poor, and you can't afford it. Well, if you were friends with Caesar [chuckles] somehow-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as a free gift, he has the power to grant you a sheep pen.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause he has that power.
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: You know he has the power, 'cause look, he's got, like, a billion sheep, right? He's got the power to do it. In the same way, Jesus proved he had the power to defeat death in his resurrection, and he is this king-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and so he can give you power over death-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as a gift.
Seth: Yes. Over, yes, death and the thing that causes death-
David: Right, sin
Seth: ... which is sin.
David: And he can, he can grant that to you as a gift because he's proven himself as powerful to do so.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay?
Seth: I think that's one way to look at it.
David: Yeah, okay.
Seth: And, like, he's been proven to be the king over such things, and as the new king- de facto king, more powerful than death and sin, he can grant the power over death and sin-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to whoever he likes.
David: I can't do it myself, so Jesus says, "I've done it for you. I'm your good king."
Seth: Right.
David: "Here's the gift of freedom over sin and death."
Seth: But the complexity of the Christian story isn't that simply that death and sin exist as a power contrary to God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but that God is also responsible for the consequences of sin and death. Remember, God, in his justice, gives over the Gentile world.
David: That's right.
Seth: So we have a problem with the sin and death problem, but we also have a God's justice problem.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What about this just God who is angry at human evil?
David: Yes. Isn't it God who always sent the Jews into exile?
Seth: That's right.
David: In their national death?
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: So to solve this problem, Paul says this in verse 25: "Jesus Christ, through his redemption, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to r- be received by faith."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so this is another aspect of what Jesus is doing on the cross. He's not just a new king supplanting the powers of sin and death, and can now give life to those who he chooses-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as a gift.
David: Right.
Seth: He has also solved the problem of God's justice against human evil.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's become a propitiation, and that word, propitiation, means that God's justice has been satisfied.
David: Mm.
Seth: Through the shedding of Jesus's blood, the consequence of death that all humanity deserved, that the demand for God's justice has been satisfied. So there's no more debt of justice left to be paid, because Jesus paid it by his blood.
David: Mm.
Seth: Am I making sense?
David: I mean, yeah, that's, that's the story, that's the story I'm more familiar with-
Seth: That's right, yes
David: ... as a Western Christian.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That- and that's, like, a big part of what the Gospel means.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, God does not like human evil, but he also wants a way for humans to not experience death and sin.
David: Right.
Seth: So his justice has to be satisfied-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and it's done through the blood of Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he... And then Paul goes on to unpack what that means. It's like, hey, like, if God's been passing over Gentile sin and Jewish sin for so long now, how is it morally right for him?
David: Yeah, isn't God unjust?
Seth: Isn't God unjust to just pardon us when we have... where there's thousands of years of evil-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to account for? And he says, "Well, I've sent my Son to do that work."
David: Mm.
Seth: So that's the, that's the argument he makes there.
David: Okay.
Seth: And the way that we experience the gifting of the power over death and sin, and the satisfaction of God's justice, is by having faith in Jesus's death and resurrection.
David: And that's what I wanted to ask about next.
Seth: Go, go for it.
David: Is... Okay, so we are justified freely as a gift of his grace. Uh, he's a propitiation for our sin on the cross by shedding his blood, but there's this from faith to faith thing-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... through faith, and you even said, like, in the last episode, the thesis statement is, it's all faith. Like, by faith in this gospel of this king-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, the salvation comes, the righteousness is done. But what does it mean to have faith in Jesus-
Seth: Yes
David: ... which is such a crucial word for Romans?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And how does that bring about an effect to my life and to the salvation of the nations, which Paul has in view here? [gentle music]
Seth: I mean, "what is faith?" is a great question. [chuckles] It's such a simple question, that it's one of those that you don't think about. You use the word faith, belief, trust so often-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's, like, one of those words that's really hard to describe.
David: I, I was talking to somebody who was applying for a pastoral role, and w- he's a great theologian, like, loves Jesus, close follower of Jesus, and he's like, "I got this question on my application, 'Just what is the gospel?'" And it's like- [laughs] ... what isn't the gospel?
Seth: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: It just feels like such a big question. Like, what is faith? It's like, okay, I mean, yeah, let's... It's a big question.
Seth: Yeah. I mean, I think on a very bare level, it means mental assent to a certain set of facts.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, it's believing certain things are true, uh, on the barest level.
David: On the barest level.
Seth: On the barest level. You have to believe that Jesus was a real person. You have to believe that he died in your place, and that he rose from the... Like, you have to believe a set of facts, a set of doctrines-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, mental assent to a certain number of things. However, that doesn't get you very far, because the demons believe that Jesus died-
David: That's right
Seth: ... as a propitiation for your sin, and defeated the powers uh, of hell, and they're really scared by that fact. They believe in it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's not a faith that, like-
David: Doesn't-
Seth: ... is going to do anything for them.
David: Right. So in a sense, he is saying, "You guys need to understand that you're not saved by your own actions. Like, your own actions aren't going to make you right with God. They're not going to bring justice to the world. We've proven that."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "We're wages of sin, sin is death."... all fallen short. We're not, we're not doing that right. Uh, and so you need to believe, and have it in your head, that Jesus has accomplished this, this goal-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of living right with God, giving you His righteousness, bringing justice to the world, and you need to know that that's the true story.
Seth: Yes.
David: You need to have that m- mental ascent that that's occurring.
Seth: Yes, but so that's the barest level.
David: Okay.
Seth: But what it means more functionally, and what it does, is that we have a commitment to and a reliance upon God.
David: Mm.
Seth: We have a commitment to God, and we rely on Him in order to give us right access to Him. We rely on Him to obey His commands in the world. We are committed to His ways, even when it costs us something. Like, faith is a reliance and a commitment to obeying what God has said, and believing what He has said, and I think that gets closer to it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, what are you thinking as I say that?
David: No, I think that, I think that's right. Uh, i- because we, we need... There, there's, like you said, there's, like, three ways to understand this righteousness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? And I need to be able to rely on God, because I know that my moral obedience has definitely fallen short. I did not obey the law, I did not obey the pattern of the created order-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and I need to be able to rely on a righteousness outside of my own.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and it does take more than just mental ascent-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that it is, "Oh, yeah, Jesus did it." That does not keep the demons at bay for me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That does not keep guilt and shame at bay for me. I need a daily, vibrant-
Seth: Yes
David: ... imaginative reliance-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that, no, I am actually good, and accepted-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and loved, and treasured, and made right with God for so- somehow- [chuckles]
Seth: Yes
David: ... because of what Jesus did.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that is a... That's far more than a, a, a mental ascent.
Seth: Yes.
David: That is a, a daily reliance. But then there's also this commitment side, which I think is, is, is well-defined, Seth, where what is that daily reliance doing to propagate the mission of God around the world, to go-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from this believing community family to save the nations, which is what Paul has in mind for Rome. Well, I have a commitment to God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to live out my faith, to actually not only mentally align what I believe He said in His law, and in His Word, and in His universe, that, "Oh, yeah, that's how God structured the world. This is what right and wrong are. This is how you bring about life and flourishing."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I understand those things. But why, when I have faith in them, I live them out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and then I actually bless the world around me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and actually partner with God in bringing His kingdom, and life, and propagation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the world, because I have this active faith that's doing it with Him."
Seth: Yes. Paul is about to give us two examples of what a commitment and a reliance is-
David: Right!
Seth: ... in, in Abraham-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and in a much more condensed format, David.
David: Okay, well, let-
Seth: But-
David: Yeah, that's, that's-
Seth: Let's do that, but we-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he does that not by telling us that they're examples-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but by introducing a new problem first.
David: Oh, great.
Seth: So because we've said, "Okay, we're kinda on the same page now. How do we defeat the pow- escape the power of death and sin? How do we solve the problem of God's justice against our Jewish and Gentile evil-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by faith?"
David: Yep.
Seth: But every Jew is now asking a question.
David: Mm.
Seth: "Well, what about all the laws that God told us to do?"
David: Right.
Seth: "Did- didn't they have something to do with how we related to God? Isn't... Aren't those important-
David: Right
Seth: ... to what the basis of our relationship with God is?"
David: Yeah, "Didn't, didn't our law say, 'If you obey these commands, then you'll stay in the land and be my people?'"
Seth: And so the-
David: "Or if, if not, I'll kick you out."
Seth: The accusation is, "So Paul, are you just throwing out God's law?"
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "It can't all be faith. What about obedience?"
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, and Paul says, "No, we're not throwing out the law at all." And I think he's using the word "law" here a little bit, maybe m- more messily than we might wanna think, but he says, "We're not throwing out the l- law at all. Remember Abraham."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then he gives us Abraham. And so this is not only an example of the type of faith that we should have, but it's also an answer to this other question, like, "Well, what do we do with all the laws that God told us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to obey as Jews?"
David: And he- so he's actually gonna say that, "No, let me show you. The law actually proves that you're saved by faith."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes.
David: Let's look at that.
Seth: And so what he does in, uh, chapter four, is he brings up the example of Abraham. In God's conversation with Abraham, where He chooses him out from the Gentile world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and says, "You are now my chosen people," Genesis tells us that Abraham believed-
David: Mm, had faith
Seth: ... had faith, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
David: Mm.
Seth: So God's relationship with the Hebrew people, it began on the basis of faith, right?
David: That Abraham believed-
Seth: God
David: ... that what God said was true.
Seth: And it was counted to him as righteous. God gave him a status with Him that he did not have-
David: Mm
Seth: ... prior. He rescued him from the power of Babylon.
David: That's right, justice.
Seth: Justice.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, he is doing something here, and how did he do it? By faith.
David: Mm.
Seth: So let's mark that. And then, and then he gives another example of David, and he says, "Isn't this also what David taught us?" When he quotes this Psalm, he says, "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so that might be a little confusing, but, but the idea here is the underlying principle of asking God for forgiveness, is that God, you're asking God to treat you other than what you have done.
David: That's right. 'Cause in order to be forgiven, you did not obey.
Seth: You did not obey, but-
David: [chuckles] Right
Seth: ... by your trust and reliance upon God's absolving power, you are asking for forgiveness, not based on what you've done-
David: Right
Seth: ... but by faith in Him.
David: Yes, by faith that He will forgive.
Seth: Right.
David: And, and the psalmist says that person who trusts that despite their disobedience-... God will forgive them, that person is blessed.
Seth: Yes. So he said, "Hey, two founding me-
David: Mm
Seth: -figures of our Jewish-"
David: Abraham and David.
Seth: Abraham and David both understand that their relationship and inclusion in God's, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... covenant family is based on faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Abraham had faith. David believed, contrary to his actions, he could have a right standing with God. What is that? That's called faith. And then the Jewish person might say, "Well, they're both Jews, though."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Why? By virtue of being Jewish."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then Paul says, "Well, hey, not actually. Abraham-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: -was given that promise before he was circumcised."
David: That's right. He was still a Babylonian in flesh.
Seth: He was still a Gentile when all that went down.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So what does that tell us? That tells us that anyone who has faith like Abraham is part of the Abrahamic family.
David: Regardless of their flesh.
Seth: Regardless of their circumcised status.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right. And so it's like... It's a pretty mind-blowing argument.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Uses their own law against them.
Seth: Well, not even against them.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's like, "You don't fully understand. You're saying we're breaking the law."
David: "This is the fulfillment of the law."
Seth: "This is what the law intended to us to believe."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "That the way that we first gain access to God's family is through faith."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Abraham believed it before he was circumcised, and the whole idea of forgiveness is predicated on the idea that we can access God apart from what we do.
David: That's so good.
Seth: And so that is his mic drop moment, where he says, "Am I not upholding the law, dear Jew-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by saying the way that we enter God's family and remain faithful to him is by our belief and commitment to him?"
David: So good.
Seth: And then he deepens it further. "And it- by the way, didn't Abraham basically believe in resurrection from the dead? Wasn't the quality of his faith that his body was dead, Sarah's body was barren, that she would give birth to a son?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "Isn't the idea of a son from the dead the basic belief in Christianity?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... The belief in the Messiah. "Isn't the- am I not upholding the law when I say when we have faith in the resurrected son, that we are made members of God's family?"
David: That's too good. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] And he's like, "That's what I'm saying." [laughs]
David: Drop the mic.
Seth: Drop the mic. [laughs]
David: That's so good. Uh, so I think for us, then, today... 'Cause that makes so much sense, Seth. Thank you for that. Um, for us today, it's just such good news to say the basic principle of the Bible, all the way back in Genesis 12, right, the founding story-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, is you are saved, made righteous, will bring justice to the world, apart from who you are and what you do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God chooses you, plucks you out, forgives you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and how you are made right with him, and how you bring his rightness to the world, is simply by saying, "Yes, I believe that that's true."
Seth: Yes.
David: "And I'm gonna live every day of my life as if I have been called out, I have been forgiven, I have been made right."
Seth: Mm.
David: And, and it is that reliance and commitment-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to that fact that marks the Christian life.
Seth: That's right. And very particularly for Paul's context, he is not diminishing any of the Jewish concerns about their law. He's saying, "Hey, you are, as Jews, are a part of God's story."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "And by believing in Jesus, we're bringing to it to its ultimate fulfillment. It is good being Jewish."
David: That's right.
Seth: "There is value in what God has done through your people," and it's to point us to the fact that in the Jew, Jesus is Christ-
David: Mm
Seth: ... death and resurrection, all people can be included in the family of Abraham.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The world can be blessed, finally-
David: Yeah, another way-
Seth: ... because of Jesus.
David: Yeah. Another way to say that is, "Oh, you wanna be really, really Jewish?"
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: "Be like Abraham, and, and have faith in a resurrected son."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And then you'll be super Jewish." [laughs]
Seth: You'll be really Jewish. [laughs]
David: Like, that'd be the ultimate fulfillment of your law story. Okay, well, that brings us kind of to a hinge point in the book, right?
Seth: It does.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, Paul kinda goes from, like, proving the basics. "Hey, we're all equal in sinfulness."
David: Yep.
Seth: "We have all been justified and made righteous"
David: The same way.
Seth: ... "the same way."
David: Yep.
Seth: "So what does that mean we get?"
David: Mm.
Seth: The next chapters, 5 through chapter 8, kinda discuss the benefits that are given to all people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because they are now in the united family of Abraham.
David: Oh, okay, so a way to say that would be, um, "We've, we've talked about how we're all in the united family of Abraham-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but that family was supposed to bring a blessing. What's the blessing?"
Seth: Yes, that's right. "Hey, we were all in the, under the family of sin. Now we're all under the family of Abraham by Jesus. What does Jesus do in this new community, in this new humanity that God is forming?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And what are we doing in the world?"
David: Well, sweet. We'll look at that in the next episode. So thank you all for joining us for this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast. We will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
