Seth: [electronic music] [paper rustles]
David: That picture of Jesus coming to me through the valley of death on a donkey-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I grab onto his coat as we walk down the street together next to his donkey and go into a big fortress.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And I just hang out there safe with him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I've never gotten to picture the gospel that way.
Intro: [electronic music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [electronic music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing in round two of Zechariah.
Seth: Yes.
David: How you feeling, Seth?
Seth: I'm excited that we did two rounds.
David: Yeah, that was a lot of dreams and visions.
Seth: [laughs] I kind of loved it, and I'm just really excited for whatever movie we end up making-
David: Oh my gosh
Seth: ... based off of-
David: Yes
Seth: ... [laughs] these podcasts.
David: Yeah, if you are starting this episode and you have not listened to part one-
Seth: Oh
David: ... of Zechariah-
Seth: You should start
David: ... definitely go back. I don't know how this episode will go, but I can guarantee you the last conversation was amazing.
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs] I had a great time. And so, uh, you... and you will definitely, I'm guessing, be lost if-
Seth: Well, I'll give a quick recap for those of you too uneager to go into the dreams.
David: Or you've slept since then. [laughs]
Seth: Or you've slept since then and forgotten all the dreams. Uh-
David: As I have.
Seth: So we, we were given, in the opening chapters, eight visions, and then a bonus vision, that all gave this general shape to what rebuilding the temple and returning to God would do.
David: Right, and-
Seth: Like-
David: And before we talk about the visions-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's because, if I'm remembering, the exiles have returned to-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... a, uh-
Seth: That's right
David: ... a deserted Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the temple was destroyed. They've relaid the foundation, but the work has halted.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now they've been like, "Uh, should we keep going? I don't know. Who's the r- who's the real remnant? Who actually deserves to be a part-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of this community of God?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Zechariah kind of gives-
Seth: And, and-
David: And Haggai.
Seth: Yeah, Zechariah and Haggai kind of give hope to this, like, hopeless people-
David: Right
Seth: ... who don't believe rebuilding the temple will accomplish anything.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that's what these series of visions were doing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: These visions are what he communicates to the people to get them willing to pick up their trowels and start rebuilding the wall.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and then after that ha- and what, what happens after the dream was the big point of all the dreams.
David: Mm.
Seth: God's kingdom comes.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, God will come, he'll establish his people, it'll be a place of peace for the entire world, and it all begins when they return to God by returning to the work of rebuilding the wall.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's kind of the, the summary of the first couple chapters.
David: Okay. And where, and where did that take us through in the book?
Seth: To chapter seven.
David: So we got through chapter six.
Seth: We got through chapter six, and then at the end of chapter six, there is a two-year gap. So all of chapters one through six happen in one night.
David: Oh.
Seth: And then we don't hear anything about Zechariah's ministry for two more years, and that's the opening of chapter seven.
David: Whoa, okay. And at this point, has the temple been built?
Seth: Two years of rebuilding have gone on.
David: Okay.
Seth: And in two more years, on the f- sixth year of King Darius-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... it will be finished.
David: Okay.
Seth: So which is important. So, like, Zechariah did his work. The visions served their purpose. The people were encouraged, they picked up their trowels, and they started rebuilding. For two years, they can see the outline of what the temple will look like in the end, and Ezra tells us it will be finished soon.
David: Mm.
Seth: So everyone has this expectation like, "Okay, the thing's about to happen."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "God's kingdom is gonna come."
David: That is interesting. I don't know if I'm just drawing an unnecessary connection, but weren't there, uh, like, four craftsmen or something in his vision about rebuilding the temple?
Seth: There were craftsmen.
David: And it took four years.
Seth: Oh.
David: I don't know if that was-
Seth: There could be
David: ... I don't know.
Seth: I mean, who knows? [laughs]
David: I don't know. Numbers.
Seth: Numbers mean things. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, but what happens in the... Chapter seven opens
Seth: with a delegation from the town of Bethel coming to Zechariah, headed up by this foreigner named Sharezer.
David: Okay, and what's significant about Bethel?
Seth: Bethel, um, is simply a town north of Jerusalem.
David: Okay.
Seth: But it was also a place where God's people used to worship, and there was sacrifices, altars offered there.
David: Is that where the tabernacle was at some point?
Seth: I believe so.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I would have to double-check that.
David: Well, like, there's a church named after it, so I'm like, "There's got-
Seth: There's gotta-
David: ... there's gotta be an important spot"
Seth: ... it was a, it was a significant spot in Israel's history 'cause that's where, like, God's presence showed up.
David: Mm.
Seth: It was a place of protection. It was a place of, like, communion with God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It was a significant place.
David: But now a foreigner's coming from there?
Seth: Well, there seems to be a delegation of priests or, like, religious figures-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and part of this repentant group of people who have been-
David: Priests of, like, a false god or of-
Seth: Um-
David: ... Israel's God?
Seth: Of Israel's God.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: And they all come to, in verse two, "entreat the favor of the Lord."
David: Mm.
Seth: They're asking for grace from God.
David: And are these, like, s- are these, like, a mixed multitude? Are there, like, some Israelites ethnically and some foreigners, or are they all foreigners who have, like, converted to Israel's-
Seth: It seems like-
David: ... God
Seth: ... it's a mixed group of people.
David: Okay.
Seth: But the, the prime delegate, the head of it, is named Sharezer. So we actually don't know if they're priests or not, we just know they're faithful followers-
David: Oh, I see
Seth: ... of Yahweh.
David: Okay.
Seth: And they-
David: Like, devout, God-fearing people.
Seth: Yes. And they come to Zechariah, and then they ask a question.
David: Okay.
Seth: And they said, "Should we keep weeping and abstaining from food in the fifth month as we have done for so many years?"
David: Oh.
Seth: And so what they're asking here is for five months out of the year-While Israel was, or Judah was in exile and the temple was destroyed, five months out of the year they would fast. They would remember the lives that were lost and the destruction of God's home.
David: Whoa.
Seth: And every five times out a year they would stop and they would mourn and they would pray in expectation that God would come again. And-
David: Wow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, if anybody felt like they were being the faithful remnant, it was probably these guys. [laughs]
Seth: It was probably these guys, right. Um, so yeah. So, but now that the temple has restarted and they can see that it'll be finished soon, mourning no longer feels like the appropriate response-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to the state of the temple.
David: Right.
Seth: All those fasts were because the temple was in disrepair and destroyed with no hope of it being done, but now that it's being rebuilt, should we keep fasting?
David: Mm.
Seth: And that's the earnest question they asked Zechariah, the real question, a good question that they asked Zechariah.
David: Mm. Okay. And so is there, like, an assumed answer there? Or are they actually asking a real question? Like-
Seth: I think they're asking a real question.
David: Okay.
Seth: What's interesting is that the Old Testament or the laws in the Hebrew Bible never mention this many fasts.
David: Right.
Seth: You're only supposed to fast before the Day of Atonement.
David: Mm.
Seth: So this was optional in a sense. I guess they chose to do this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as people longing for God to return.
David: Right.
Seth: So it is kind of odd that they would go to the prophet with the expectation that these were expected fasts.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right. Do you know what-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... do you see what I'm saying? Like, "We've been fasting every month for five months out of the year, should we keep doing it?"
David: Yeah, and who knows how long they've been doing that.
Seth: Right.
David: Was it all 70 years? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how long this has been going on
Seth: ... how old is Shru- Like, who... Yeah. So it's like they expect that that's what they're supposed to do.
David: Mm.
Seth: And they kind of are asking Zechariah, it's like S- should we keep doing this? This is right what we've been doing. There's an expectation that-
David: So d- does that... Oh, it makes a ton of sense. I'm, I'm like, so, so was this a holy, good thing? Like, were they, were th- is it because of their prayers that Zechariah, uh, is experiencing such minist- ministry success, or was this some, like, religious, legalistic thing that it was the traditions of men that have become now a fake law of God?
Seth: Well, I think Zechariah has the same suspicions you do.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So-
David: I'm sniffing them out. [laughs]
Seth: You're sniffing them out. So Zechariah responds to this question about fasting with three more questions about fasting.
David: Classic.
Seth: Classic. Which, anyway, I'll, I'll say that Jesus does the same thing-
David: Oh
Seth: ... when people ask him about what does it look like to truly love your neighbor-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus starts asking them about loving your neighbor.
David: Right.
Seth: A whole bunch of questions about who is your neighbor, tell, what is the law of God?
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And he pulls out of them th- their half-hearted following of God's commands.
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: And a similar thing is gonna happen here. He's gonna ask them three questions. He says, "Did you really fast for God for all those years?"
David: Oh, so, like, what was the nature of your fast? Why did you really do it?
Seth: What was your motives behind that?
David: Mm.
Seth: And he then he s- then he asks another leading question, "Haven't all your meals actually been about satisfying your desires, the meals you have eaten been about satisfying your desires?"
David: Oh, so even when you are eating you're not doing it in reverence to God anyway.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Think about, like, oh, you're, you're being all religious when you're fasting maybe-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but when you're eating is God even involved in that?
Seth: Yep.
David: So really what's your relationship between food and God?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And the last question, isn't this attitude the same attitude that destroyed the temple in the first place?
David: What attitude?
Seth: The attitude of half-hearted obedience to God's laws.
David: Mm.
Seth: A show of fidelity to God's commands, but not actual life changed, not actually following God's commands-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when the boots are on the ground.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he goes over, uh, and he repeats Israel's history and he says, "Your fathers did, did the same thing you did. They had external acts of obedience, but they had a whole bunch of wickedness." And he says, "If you're genuinely sorry-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for the destruction of the temple, shouldn't you be genuinely sorry for the things that caused the destruction of the temple?"
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: "If you're fasting because the temple is destroyed, shou- instead of food shouldn't you be fasting from the things that destroyed the temple in the first place?"
David: Mm.
Seth: And he's say- and he's implying that you're not actually doing those things, and he says, "You aren't giving out justice impartially. You aren't loving your neighbor. You're not caring for the poor-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the marginalized. All these are the reasons that Israel was sent into exile, and your fasting isn't really doing anything except being a religious show."
David: Mm.
Seth: "So instead of simply fasting, what you should be doing is having a wholehearted trust that God's kingdom will come and a whole life change based on that fact."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Like, you should act like citizens of that kingdom before the kingdom gets here."
David: Dang, that's crazy. So i- it just feels so on the nose for even today.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: To just be like-
Seth: Yeah.
David: It just feels a little too modern.
Seth: Right. Right, right, right.
David: In, like, a minor prophet, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: It's like, man, this is, like, so today.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This half-hearted religious obedience-
Seth: Yep
David: ... where, well, we're doing the right things. Yeah, but your hearts aren't in it.
Seth: Right.
David: And the rest of your life isn't matching what you're claiming-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with your lips. It made me think of Isaiah 58.
Seth: Okay. Yeah.
David: Uh, God, i- i- it's kind of the, the... It's, this is leading up to the destruction of the temple.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's, like, what you're saying is-
Seth: Yep
David: ... is the same. God says, "Is this not the kind of fasting that I have chosen?" And it's this, 'cause he, He condemns them for all their religious fasts.
Seth: Yep.
David: He says, "Is this not the kind of fasting I've chosen? To loose the chains of injustice, untie the cords of the yoke-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to set the oppressed free and break every yoke, to share your food with the hungry, provide for the poor and the wanderer, give them shelter, when you see the naked to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?"
Seth: That's true fasting.
David: That's real fasting is provide... I- is you going without-
Seth: Mm
David: ... so others can go with.
Seth: Yeah.Fasting over a ruined temple means nothing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if you're refusing to fast from those types of things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that ruined the temple in the first place.
David: Is part of the half-hearted obedience here that we're, we're picking up on and Zechariah-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is trying to tease out, is that also betrayed by the fact that in Zechariah, like we talked about last week, returning to God, repenting to God, had to do with like pick up a trowel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... slap some mortar on some bricks-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and be a part of rebuilding the temple. It's like, where have you guys been? You guys are construction workers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Oh, we've been over in Bethel crying and fasting and mourning and wailing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is it time to stop yet, or should we continue our very holy work? And, and, and they're like, "Dude, the work God told us to do is-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... to actually give of your time and your resources to rebuild the temple, and you're over there performing some religious service when the temple-
Seth: Mm. It could be that. It could... So like return, what does return to God mean-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is the m- question we keep having in this-
David: Right
Seth: ... conversation. Return to God and I will return, and God will return to you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's the hope of Zechariah. Um, and we l- talked about in the first podcast that returning to God does not equal returning to the land.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's, that's an insufficient returning to God.
David: Right, 'cause they were there.
Seth: Right. And the way that I understood this was returning to God isn't just rebuilding the temple.
David: Right.
Seth: Or it isn't just celebrating the temple is being rebuilt.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And so I don't know if these people were involved in the rebuilding efforts or not. We're not told that they are or aren't.
David: Mm.
Seth: My assumption is that they are invested in it, like all the people of-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Israel are. Like, and like they seem eager, they seem genuine, they seem sincere. They don't seem necessarily evil or lazy or overly religious. They're doing, they're completing a tradition. They're, they're mourning over the past-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but Zechariah's pulling out of them greater obedience. So I wonder if, in a sense, he's saying, "Return to God isn't return to the land, and a true return to God isn't even really having the right attitude about the temple."
David: Mm.
Seth: Returning to God is loving God and loving your neighbor.
David: Mm.
Seth: Returning to God is like obeying the commands that he has given us, not the ones that you're doing, which God never commanded in the first place.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what's funny about this whole conversation is that we're, like, giving, I'm giving a lot of the answers Zechariah has, but he doesn't actually answer the question outright until the very end of chapter eight.
David: Mm.
Seth: A question is asked from Sharez or the foreigner in chapter, the beginning of chapter seven.
David: Should we stop mourning?
Seth: Should we stop mourning? And then he says, "Let me, let me ask you three questions."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And they're implied rebukes-
David: Right
Seth: ... of their fasting. And then he goes in for the, for the bulk of chapter eight, prophecies about what God will do when he does come-
David: Mm
Seth: ... once the temple is actually rebuilt, and he gives them a whole bunch more hope. And in chapter eight, God, we're told God speaks seven times. Thus sayeth the Lord-
David: Mm
Seth: ... happens seven times, just like it happened in, uh, in s- the creation of the world happened in seven days. Like, when God's presence comes, what happened at the beginning of the world?
David: Oh, it'll be recreation.
Seth: Like, yeah. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when God's presence hovered over the waters, Earth was made in seven days.
David: Right.
Seth: When God's presence comes, he's gonna declare good news for Jerusalem.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he has this whole giant lists of promises. God, in his great love, will finally come and dwell with his people again. Uh, parents will grow old enough to see their children have children and watch them play in the streets in front of their homes.
David: Mm.
Seth: People from all over the world will come to Jerusalem and dwell inside Jerusalem, even if they're not Israelites. Like this-
David: Okay
Seth: ... giant cosmic picture of what's happening. It like, he just repeats a lot of the same promises he had in the first six chapters.
David: I think I'm starting to understand now.
Seth: Okay.
David: There's a connect... 'Cause I, what I was about to ask before you started talking about recreation was, what's the connection between Zechariah's huge desire to return to the temple-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like, so much so that back in one of his visions that we talked about last week, it was, "You're not gonna succeed by military force or might-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but by artists building a temple."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, okay, he's all in on rebuilding the temple. That's the thing. What's the connection between, "You must rebuild the temple," to, "You know what? It, it's not a matter if you're mourning or rejoicing over the temple, it's are you doing good works? Are you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... obeying the law? Are you-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... treating people with equity?"
Seth: Yep.
David: "Are you loving the poor?" What's the connection there? And then recreation answered it for me because, you know, the temple is a picture of the garden.
Seth: Oh, that's right, yeah.
David: And so when the, when the temple's built, when the garden comes back to Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the, the space around it should be recreated to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... look like the Garden of Eden, where there is justice, there is equity.
Seth: Mm.
David: So you can't have half-hearted obedience or religiosity without actual-
Seth: Mm
David: ... lived love toward-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... neighbor in Eden, because if, if you have that, then you're gonna have a temple and a garden-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but it's gonna be a sham and a charade because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... people are mistreating their neighbor. That's not Eden.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's like, "You gotta repent if you're gonna be a part of this rebuilding project."
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah, in, in a similar way that the temple is in process of being built, so are God's people.
David: Mm.
Seth: They are in process.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're mourning over something they should've been mourning for-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but they don't quite know what it means to be part of the new kingdom and new creation God is building.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So what is he, Zechariah doing? He's like, "This is what God's kingdom is like. This is what his creation is like," and he's calling them up into the identity of new kingdom citizens-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... new human beings in his new creation.
David: That's really cool. I mean, that's kind of, I mean, that's what we're invited into now. Is it too early to talk about Jesus?
Seth: It's never too early-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to talk about Jesus.
David: Because I'm like, that's what we're invited into now, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We're, we l- now live in a kingdom, and it feels like, kind of in this vein where we're two years in, but there's two years left to go.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're at this like halfway point.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: You know, we're, we're, we're being called out of religious half-heartedness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, y- you know, being, uh, being good in mouth but bad in deeds. And Jesus is calling us out of those things, and did call, like, out the religious hypocrites-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in his day. And as we go around in the Kingdom of God, we create Eden, we bring new creation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We bring the seven days-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of creation and rest to the world around us as we do what?
Seth: Yeah.
David: As we do real fasting.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, which is providing for others, loving God and neighbor.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that's what we're invited into now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I'm just seeing all those parallels.
Seth: Yeah. And that's the way the Kingdom of God always works.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Trust that God's Kingdom is coming.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's c- your citizenship exam, trust that God's Kingdom is coming.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Okay, now that you know it's coming, what do you do? Act like a citizen of the Kingdom. Be fair, be loving, seek peace, do the beatitudes- [laughs]
David: Mm
Seth: ... do, uh, do true fasting. Which, by the way, is an interesting turn of phrase considering the abundance of God's Kingdom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? Like, fasting
Seth: is something you do when you're mourning.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So fasting is a denial of something, but when God's Kingdom comes, won't there be tons-
David: Feasting
Seth: ... of everything?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so this goes to the, the answer that Zechariah finally gives to Sherezer.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And-
David: You teed that up
Seth: ... yeah, in verse 18. So he has seven phrases about thus saith Lord-
David: Oh, right, the seven-
Seth: ... about the new creation
David: ... new creation
Seth: And now he's gonna give us three new thus saith the Lord Almighties.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: And so three more. Um, and he says this, "The fast of the fourth month and the fast of the fifth month and the fast of the seventh month-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the fast of the 10th month shall be to the house of Judah seasons of joy and gladness and feasting." And, and that was a weird way [laughs] to say feasting and feasting. Uh, therefore, love, truth and peace. All your days of fasting are gonna turn into days of feasting.
David: Whoa.
Seth: That's why you love truth and peace.
David: So if you squished these two moments together-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, wait, what's his name again?
Seth: Sherezer.
David: Sherezer. That's a, it rolls right off the tongue.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Easy to remember. Sherezer comes up to, to Zechariah and says, "Hey, should we stop mourning now because it looks like the temple's going to be complete" And he says, "Yes. Not only should you stop mourning, but you're gonna turn all those five months of fasting into giant parties where you're just gonna feast."
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay.
David: Does that... Is that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is that a metaphor?
Seth: I mean-
David: Or, like, does that happen? [laughs]
Seth: I mean, there... Let me read you the next two-
David: Okay
Seth: ... thus saith the Lords.
David: Okay.
Seth: So thus saith the Lord of hosts, "Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities. The inhabitants of one city shall go to another saying, 'Let us go once and entreat the favor of the Lord.'" This is exactly the same language used when that delegation of Bethel came. We've come to entreat the favor of the Lord-
David: Oh
Seth: ... headed up by a foreigner, Sherezer, and this is inhabitants of all these worldwide cities coming to seek the grace of the Lord.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he's putting Sherezer b- into the cosmic end of h- history-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when God comes. And he says, "Let us go and seek the favor of the Lord. I, myself, am going. Uh, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and entreat the favor of the Lord." Thus says the Lord of hosts, third one, "In those days," in those final days, "10 men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew," a single Jew, "Let him go with you, for we have heard that God is with you." So this is the end of this section right here.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that's the way it ends. 10 nations grabbing hold of one Jew, inviting them into a day of feasting.
David: W- w- what does that mean? Like, that a... You'd have one person would be so rich that he could host 10 families?
Seth: There's something literarily going on.
David: Okay.
Seth: Zechariah has just given seven decrees of a new creation, and then three decrees to Sherezer about the foreigners coming in.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Seven plus three is 10.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So 10 nations will grab ahold of one Jew. So there's something literary going on.
David: I see.
Seth: He's saying, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "All your hope, Sherezer, the heart of your question about fasting-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is bound up in the identity or the fate or the destiny of a single Jew-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or maybe even, like, a single place, Jerusalem-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... my kingdom, my place-
David: Right
Seth: ... or even the Messiah-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... um, is kind of the idea. So what I think is happening here, he says, the question is, okay, should we keep fasting? We've been fasting for a long time hoping the temple's gonna be rebuilt, and it's almost done-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so we can stop fasting, right? And he says like, "Well, why did you fast in the first place? What were your motives behind it? If your motives are right, you should be saying no to all these things in preparation for the coming kingdom."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Okay, great. Now, Sherezer, let me, let me talk to you again. Let's talk about fasting one more time. All your days of fasting will be turned into days of feasting-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and all your countrymen, people like you, Sherezer, will be invited to that day of feasting."
David: Mm.
Seth: "So come to the one city, Jerusalem, and attach yourself to the one Messiah that is coming to save."
David: Mm.
Seth: I think that's, like, and he will save on that last day. So I think there is, like, an escalation away from even the rebuilding of the temple and the hope it'll bring in a historical moment to this, like, final day of perpetual feasting. I think there's an escalation happening that Zechariah doesn't warn Sherezer of.
David: Mm.
Seth: But I think it's necessary to understand, how does fasting happen perpetually? How does all our days of fasting turn to days of feasting-
David: Right
Seth: ... when a single figure, a Jew, comes and takes his rightful seat in the Kingdom of God? Like, oh, that has to happen, that has to be the Messiah.
David: Right.
Seth: This has to be the last day.
David: 'Cause it's not just this one foreigner
Seth: Right.
David: It's- it's people of tongues from every nation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or nations of every tongue-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is how it's worded. And so this is something global that's happening, which makes sense with the 10 now that I know the literary thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where it's you've got the seven and the three, the seven days of creation, and the three completed days of recreation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There's this, like, totality happening-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this, uh, global thing happening, and he's like, "Okay, everybody, grab on to the Messiah's coattails-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and he's [laughs] gonna bring you into a feasting paradise."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right.
David: Is that what's happening?
Seth: That's what's happening.
David: That's really cool.
Seth: And just another fun side note about the creation story, there's seven days in the creation story-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but God speaks 10 times.
David: Oh.
Seth: And so he's- he's playing with all that creation, new creation language in this whole thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's gonna create a new world for both, for all God's people through the work of one-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Messiah, one figure, Jesus.
David: That's cool.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah, I also know that- that the six days of creation are in pairs of three, so it makes sense-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... that that three is completing the seven-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to make the 10 statements. Anyway, it's like, oh, he's done well here. And it's-
Seth: And did- did you also notice-
David: Oh, no
Seth: ... that he never answers the question about fasting?
David: He doesn't?
Seth: He never tells them to stop fasting.
David: Oh, he only tells them what's going to happen.
Seth: Right.
David: And we'll let them draw their own conclusion.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's like, the implied answer is, "You can stop fasting"
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but he never tells them-
David: Right
Seth: ... yes or no.
David: Well, the implied answer is there's freedom.
Seth: Right.
David: Now that you know what's really going on-
Seth: Which is-
David: How do, how will you serve and prepare for the Messiah?
Seth: Which makes it really interesting that in the New Testament, neither Jesus nor the apostles ever command fasting.
David: Right, and they- they get accused of that.
Seth: Yeah. The-
David: The Pharisees are like, "Why don't you and your disciples fast? John the Baptist people-
Seth: How can you-
David: ... they fast"
Seth: ... when the one Jew has arrived?
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Right. He's like, "These are the five days of feasting, man."
Seth: Yeah, it's time.
David: "I don't know what to tell you." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] I don't know what to tell you.
David: This is not mourning time. Mourning time's gonna come.
Seth: There's an expectation of fasting, but only as it relates to the proper response to the salvation Jesus brings, or the desire to live as one of God's new creations on the earth. It's never demanded of a disciple-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but it's encouraged as a part of a lifestyle of true returning to God.
David: Yeah. It is interesting, too, in that- that story where Jesus is accused of not fasting, but being a glutton [laughs] and a drunkard.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Which that's what you do at feasts, right? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Jesus was doing the five, the five months of fasting diet. Or five-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... months of feasting diet. But what a- what- what's interesting about that, he's, uh, he says, "The bridegroom is here, so therefore they don't, they don't fast." Why? He's doing the Zechariah thing.
Seth: Mm.
David: He's like, "We are in the time of feasting." But then he says that, "A time will come when you will fast."
Seth: Yep.
David: When? When you go back to the time-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when these foreigners were fasting.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: When the temple was destroyed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He goes, 'Cause I'm gonna go away-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and then you'll fast.
Seth: My body will be destroyed.
David: My body, the temple, will be destroyed-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and this mourning will happen again.
Seth: Yep.
David: That's really interesting. [gentle music] Okay, so we have... I- if I s- if I even jump back to next week a little bit, we've got, like, a giant wall of fire and a new temple and God coming to dwell in it, and when he comes, now we know there'll be a bunch of feasting and he's going to let everybody grab, all the nations will grab onto his coattails and he'll fly them into the kingdom [laughs] of perpetual feasting where there's holy gluttony, apparently.
Seth: Yes.
David: That all sounds, like, very cosmic. We've talked about the seven, three, 10 days of creation thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, but like, what's this actually look like? Uh, like, is this Zerubbabel?
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: Like, he's a descendant of David. Are they expecting someone else? W- i- are they gonna build a palace? Is there a throne-
Seth: Mm-mm
David: ... coming? Like, what, what's the actual-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... boots-on-the-ground expectation here?
Seth: Well, I think naming Zerubbabel is probably pretty important.
David: Okay.
Seth: The one Jew that the nations grab ahold of. W- they probably expected it to be Zerubbabel.
David: Right, yeah, descendant of David, governor.
Seth: Descendant of David. All this stuff is happening. We've got a new high priest, a new temple. He's not a king, but he's the governor over the temple.
David: Right.
Seth: I mean, this, it-
David: Apparently from the visions we talked about last week, he's an-
Seth: Right
David: ... olive tree that goes into the Rube Goldberg machine-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... creating perpetual olive oil.
Seth: Right. So I think Messianic expectations were high-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for Zerubbabel. I also think Zechariah understands that it can't be Zerubbabel.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, Zerubbabel doesn't bring in perpetual days of feasting. And then in the next chapters, chapters 9 through 14, we get kind of a more boots-on-the-ground picture of how this cosmic day of feasting is gonna come about, and it's not a super smooth ride-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is the, the v- the vibe you get from-
David: Gotcha
Seth: ... 9 through 14. You're gonna have this king coming, riding on a donkey in chapter 9, but in chapter 10, he's gonna be opposed by these false shepherds who are gonna take over the flock of God's people-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... and maul them and mutilate them and hurt them, but he's gonna triumph over them and then send them away, and then the new creation will come.
David: Okay.
Seth: So what does it look like to get to the new creation? What does it look like to get to that day? And Zechariah says, "Well, it's gonna start when a king comes into Jerusalem riding on a donkey."
David: Interesting. Well, I mean, now everybody listening probably knows where that's going-
Seth: Right
David: ... on this side of the cross.
Seth: Yes.
David: I'm just so curious, w- like, what, what's that image mean for them in that moment?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, I'm guessing kings don't ride on donkeys.
Seth: Kings did ride on donkeys.
David: Oh.
Seth: That was the, probably the preferred steed of a king.
David: What?
Seth: It was a-
David: Disney lied to me.
Seth: It's an, it's a, I mean-
David: What happened to the giant-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... white horse Clydesdale with the flowing mane?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm disappointed.
Seth: Well, this is-
David: And alsoSorry.
Seth: Yes, no, keep going
David: Also, I just feel like I've been lied to by preachers my whole life-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... who, who said that Jesus on a donkey was, like, him being, like, a peasant or something.
Seth: Right. The ph- phrase is humble and mounted on a donkey, but-
David: So it's easy to conflate those two
Seth: ... it's re- it's really easy to conflate those two, but it's not... He's not humble because he's riding on a donkey.
David: The donkey's not a sign of the humility.
Seth: No, so he-
David: He's a humble king-
Seth: He-
David: ... who's riding on a normal king thing.
Seth: Yeah, a ki- yeah, riding on a donkey is the sign of a king.
David: Is it?
Seth: He's being a king, but he's being a humble king.
David: I didn't know this. This is blowing my mind.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why did kings ride on donkeys?
Seth: I mean, they were, I mean, culture. [laughs]
David: Culture. [laughs]
Seth: Like, it, like it was common cultural
Seth: practice at the time for-
David: That's so mind-blowing to me
Seth: ... and it's... Think about it this way, you could ride in on a war horse.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But riding in on a war horse communicates a certain degree of insecurity-
David: Hm
Seth: ... because you don't believe... The people won't accept you as a king unless you show force-
David: Mm
Seth: ... unless you show power. You come in on a war horse to instill fear, to make sure that they know who's really in charge.
David: Right.
Seth: Coming in on a donkey says, "No, I know I'm the king."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I'm not here to do battle. I'm here to rule."
David: I'm wondering too, you, you, with you saying, "I'm not here to do battle", my guess is, and this is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... no one take this to the history books.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is me knowing what I know about the ancient Near East and making an assumption. I've not studied this.
Seth: Yes.
David: But my guess is kings did ride in on war horses-
Seth: They, yes
David: ... even to their own people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when they're coming back from battle.
Seth: Right.
David: When there's wartime-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if the king comes in on a donkey, it's probably a sign to everybody that there's peace on every side.
Seth: Mm-hmm, which is a really interesting slide into
Seth: verse nine and 10-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of chapter nine. "Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion. Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold, your king is coming to you, righteous" and now the translations will differ here, but, "having salvation, is he, humble and mounted on a donkey." And then verse 10, "I will cut off the chariot from-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem-
David: Well, there you go
Seth: ... and the battle bow shall be cut off, and this king shall speak peace to the nations and rule from sea to sea."
David: Well, there you go.
Seth: Right.
David: Why is he on a donkey? Because war's over.
Seth: Right, and God himself has decommissioned his entire military.
David: So no, that, there are no war horses anymore.
Seth: Right.
David: Whoa.
Seth: And go back to this-
David: I love this. [laughs]
Seth: And go back to that phrase, "Righteous and having salvation, is he."
David: Okay.
Seth: I've normally communic- thought of that as, okay, this king that's gonna come and start the new creation off is gonna be righteous, he's gonna be just, he's gonna be morally good, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's true.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Having salvation, is he", meaning he is the agent of salvation, right? He's the one who will-
David: He, he, he-
Seth: ... bring salvation
David: ... he brought it or will bring it.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: However, I think from my study of this word-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that's better understood righteous and saved is he.
David: Hm.
Seth: The king riding on the donkey is the one who experiences salvation
Seth: from God-
David: Hm
Seth: ... the God who just decommissioned his entire military.
David: Okay, so what, what does that mean then for a king to be saved from a decommissioned military? I'm, I am-
Seth: Right
David: ... legitimately swimming in-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... confusion there.
Seth: What it means is the point that Zechariah has already told us.
David: Hm.
Seth: "Not by might, not by power, but by my spirit," says the Lord.
David: Oh, I understand. He's like, he's answering a question that we should've been asking all along-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, that we kinda did ask last week-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where it's like, how does a temple bring peace-
Seth: Right, how do temple craftsmen-
David: ... in war times? Right
Seth: ... stop nations?
David: Don't you need military and all these things?
Seth: Right.
David: And so when you have a king riding in on a peacetime donkey-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he has already experienced salvation-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because he's been saved-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from the cessation of war-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he's coming in as a picture of that salvation-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... having received it himself.
Seth: Yes, and also, God is the one doing the fighting.
David: Right.
Seth: The king isn't the one fighting.
David: The king has been saved.
Seth: The king has been saved, and will be saved. And as the picture goes on, so this king walks in, and then this line, "Return", same line from the very beginning.
David: Hm.
Seth: "Return to the stronghold, O hopeful prisoners. Today I declare to you, I will restore to you double all that you have lost." So he's calling out to Israel, "Return to Jerusalem. Your king has come. He will experience salvation." And then verse 14, after they've all gathered into the city with the king in the middle, "Then the Lord will appear over them like a storm, and His arrow will go out f- uh, go forth like lightning, and the Lord will sound his trumpet like thunder, and He will march forth in the whirlwinds of the south."
David: Hm.
Seth: So this idea is that God will protect through war, but almost like a defensive war. He makes Jerusalem this asylum for the entire world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The king rules over it, and then God himself rests on top of the city, and any army that tries to come against it is destroyed by the storm of God.
David: Okay, so wait, that an- that ma- that... Okay, so let, let me lay out-
Seth: Yes
David: ... a different timeline then-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... with this. So you've got a king actually riding through war territory then.
Seth: Yes.
David: But not on a, not on a-
Seth: Okay
David: ... mighty steed and a bunch of armor where it makes sense that he made it through war-
Seth: Mm
David: ... torn surrounding nations to ride into Jerusalem. It's like, how did you get here?
Seth: Right.
David: You're humble. You're not wearing armor. You're on a donkey. How did you get through there? And we're... He's like, "Well, God's gonna cut off all the chariots and all the horses."
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's gonna put an end to war.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's the message that the king brings in.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's like, "Come on, let's go. Let's go into-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Helm's Deep, everybody. Let's go into the fortress." Everybody gets there, and then from that place of protection, God then-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... puts an end to all war.
Seth: Yeah, verse 15, "The Lord of hosts will protect them, and they will devour and tread down the sling and the stones." And they, I think the im- they is Israel acting as an instrument of war, but they're not doing the fighting.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're like a sword that God holds.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, the emphasis is on God's action more than-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israel's military intervention, "And they will be like a bowl, full like a bowl drenched like the corners of the altar" Which is a little strange phrase for us, but back in the Book of Kings, if you grab the horns of the altar-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it was a symbol of asylum.
David: Right.
Seth: That you could be protected from violence you were owed, [laughs] you know?
David: Yep.
Seth: So-
David: And that's where all the blood was thrown and-
Seth: That's where all the blood was thrown.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that's how God's gonna save his people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And on that day," he says in the final verse of chapter nine is like, "I'm gonna make my people shine like jewels in the land. Once all the enemies of God are scattered, my people will shine like a jewel in the middle of a land"
David: A jewel. Is there significance there? Like-
Seth: I think it's just supposed to be beautiful.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, it's a picture of flourishing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's... There's beauty, there's wealth, there's peace, there's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... prosperity. When God's king comes, he will be saved by God-
David: Yep
Seth: ... along with all of his people, and then they will live in peace forever.
David: Yeah. I cannot get over
David: this messianic king riding on a peacetime donkey through war-torn territory.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he was saved. He didn't die. Like, he made it through-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by being humble.
Seth: Yes.
David: And right, and, like, through peace.
Seth: Yeah. I think you could also say, so like, Jesus is humble in how he saves.
David: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And he saves by dying-
David: Right
Seth: ... and by letting God save him-
David: Mm
Seth: ... from death.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that after he is saved by God from death-
David: Right
Seth: ... seated in Jerusalem, and as people join Jesus in his death, allowing themselves to be rescued by God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that's when God's people reign.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's when there's peace in the world. That's when God's kingdom comes.
David: It's so beautiful. What I love, Seth, about what we get to do here-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... is for us and probably for a lot of our listeners, we've heard the gospel story so many times, but this gives a whole new mental image-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for what Jesus did.
Seth: Why?
David: Okay, like, tell the story a different way, right? So I mean, or the same way, but just use all the historical Jesus language. So Jesus is the messianic king who came to earth, and he entered into a war-torn world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he rode through that war-torn world on a donkey, through humility.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Though he was a king, he rode around like he was the prince of peace.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He didn't ride around on the war horse, and he rode through war-torn tor- territory, so much so that he went through the, the valley of the shadow of death. He took that donkey all the way through the grave-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then he popped out the other side in the kingdom of God in Jerusalem-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to proclaim that this humble king has now survived the war of death through humility and peace, and now proclaims, "Everybody, grab onto my coattails-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... follow me into the fortress where God will protect you forever-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and I will be your peace, and you will reign and rule with me forever."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just like that picture of Jesus coming to me through the valley of death on a donkey.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I grab on to his coat as we walk down the street together next to his donkey and go into a big fortress-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and I just hang out there safe with him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I've never gotten to picture the gospel that way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I just love that. That's what I love about doing this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is it just gives me so many new ways to appreciate and love
David: what Jesus has done.
Seth: And what it did for me, too, is like, I've always read that verse with like, and Jesus is the agent of my salvation.
David: Mm.
Seth: He comes like a king, secure in his power, and like a king secure in his power, he saves his people from their enemies.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's true.
David: And other parts of the Bible pick up on that version, that, that picture.
Seth: That... Right. But the idea of Jesus being saved by God from death-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then me joining Jesus in solidarity in being saved by God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and we together constitute the new kingdom of a saved people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with God's storm of protection above us inside the asylum of his presence, man-
David: Oh
Seth: ... that's just a fun picture of what it means to be a Christian. [laughs]
David: So cool. [laughs]
Seth: And it goes back to the vision that we had, uh, back in chapter two, I believe it was, of God's presence coming and that man measuring the walls of this new city and then it being surrounded by fire, so nobody could come in-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because it was protected by fire. Now, we have the same image, but it's a storm with lightning.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's the same idea.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God is making a city of immeasurable borders from sea to sea, protected by his presence.
David: Mm.
Seth: So only those who are saved can enter.
David: Wow. Walk me through then, if we should-
Seth: Okay
David: ... the triumphal entry.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause Jesus actually does this.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like-
Seth: He does, yeah. [laughs] He does. This is like-
David: This is not actually just a metaphor
Seth: ... this is a very real moment in Jesus' life.
David: Jesus gets on a donkey-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to fulfill this verse and rides into Jerusalem.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He lives this out in flesh and blood in real history.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why, and what does it mean? What did he do when he got there? Like-
Seth: Well, what's funny is that in Matthew 21:4, it says that Jesus does it simply to fulfill this prophecy. He knows the prophecies of Zechariah, and he intentionally does it in order to act the Book of Zechariah out.
David: Mm.
Seth: Which I think is an interesting idea. It's like Jesus knows-... what the expectations of his people are, is that there's gonna be a king who comes riding in on a donkey, and I'm gonna do it for him.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so he does it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think that's fun-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to think about. But to maybe get to the heart of your question, like, why did Jesus choose-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or why did God design history or inspire Zechariah to have this vision that Jesus would ultimately play out? Like why-
David: Right
Seth: ... is this the story-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that you wanna play out? I guess I don't know a great answer to that question.
David: Yeah. I mean, part of it has to be there's something in this story that
David: shows us what kind of king the Messiah is and what he has done for us, that Jesus had to embody in this world to show us that he was that king.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That he is that humble king riding on a donkey, that he took a peacetime donkey and rode it into the city that would kill him.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: Like, he rode that into the valley of death. He rode that donkey right into Jerusalem where he-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was going to die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Before he rode in, he, he looked at the city and he wept. He's like, "Oh, Jerusalem, the city that kills its prophets."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: AKA, it's about to kill me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Now let me get on my peacetime donkey and ride to the valley of death. And he goes in, and he... where does he go? He goes to the temple.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.
David: Right? He goes to the temple, and he destroys it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Acts out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the reverse of Zechariah
David: and what will soon happen to him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's, like, showing the world that I am the king who's going to conquer death and the violence of the nations through humility and peace.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He just, he acts it out. He takes it on himself. Yeah.
Seth: It is interesting that we keep not being able to move forward into the story, into Jesus's moments where he is doing battle against the false teachers of his day, going to the false vision of the temple they had, turning over the tables in the temple.
David: Right. Yeah, he just starts-
Seth: Reinst-
David: ... doing all that stuff after the donkey.
Seth: Well, and that's exactly what Zechariah says is gonna happen in chapters-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... 10 and 11.
David: So Jesus's last days-
Seth: Are-
David: ... on Earth are very patterned after Zechariah.
Seth: Yeah. Zechariah, after saying this king is gonna come in-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and provide this salvation for his people, we're immediately told that this Messiah is going to run into false shepherds or false leaders and sheep suffering under their leadership.
David: Mm.
Seth: This is what he says in verse two.
David: Of?
Seth: Therefore-
David: Sorry.
Seth: Of chapter 10.
David: Okay.
Seth: Zechariah 2:10. "Therefore the people wander like sheep. They are afflicted for lack of a shepherd."
David: Mm.
Seth: This is exactly the same thing Jesus says when he's looking over a group of people when they're hungry, and he says, "These are people-"
David: Mm.
Seth: "... without a shepherd."
David: Yeah.
Seth: The leaders of God's kingdom, the temple, the temple that Zerubbabel and Zechariah helped rebuild, are now preying on the same people they were supposed to help. So Jesus comes in knowing that there is still a leadership problem in Israel. And w- interestingly, just even historically for a moment, let's, to zoom back out to Zechariah's day. Zechariah helps rebuild the temple, but by the end of the Book of Nehemiah, which is, like, the end of the story of the rebuilding of the temple-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they're already dealing with corrupt leadership-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the temple.
David: Yep.
Seth: Malachi will talk about corrupt leaders in the temple.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then in John 10, Jesus summarized the, the era from the f- the rebuilding of that temple to the time that he lives in this way. He says, um, "Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate of the sheep, the true shepherd-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the good shepherd, "and all who have come before me were thieves and robbers."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, like, Jesus understands that he is inhabiting the world of Zechariah. He is the king. He is the good shepherd, but he's coming to confront the bad shepherds of Israel now, which is why we keep running into this reality.
David: Really quick possible tangent.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What were the two things... W- were they the ones that carried the woman away in the basket or something?
Seth: The two, the two women with the wings of the stork?
David: Yeah. I don't know if that was story or not, but last week we talked about it, and there were, like, two things. It w- it was, like, thievery and something, or-
Seth: Oh, yeah. There was, uh, on one side it was lying and the other-
David: Lying
Seth: ... or perjury, and the other side was thief.
David: So-
Seth: Being a thief.
David: Yeah, and I know also in John 10, Jesus talks about liars.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I'm wondering if he's also-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... riffing on this as he's in the good shepherd-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... talk. Anyway, golly.
Seth: I, after reading Zechariah-
David: Phew
Seth: ... I could not help but reading, read John 10, where Jesus calls himself the good shepherd-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... very, very differently.
David: Right.
Seth: So Zechariah 10 starts describing these false shepherds of Israel.
David: Okay.
Seth: "My anger is hot against the shepherds. I will punish the leaders, but I will make my flock like horses." [chuckles] He says like, "I'm gonna make my flock like horses, and from my Messiah will come a cornerstone. From him will come a tent peg. From him will come a battle bow. And from him, every ruler, all of them together, shall be like mighty men in battle and trample these false shepherds in the street."
David: Mm.
Seth: So what's interesting is now we, we have a king who comes humble on a donkey. His instruments of war have been decommissioned.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But now he's turning into a warrior, not against the nations-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but against the false teachers of his own nation.
David: Wow.
Seth: The corrupt priests of his own nation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what happens through this next movement is that God is angry with the shepherds in chapters 10 to the beginning of 11, but God will give Israel a new shepherd in himself who will gather the flock that these false leaders have scattered throughout the world and reconstitute them as the new people of God in his new creation. That's, that's the vision of chapter 10.
David: Man, okay, I've got a question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause Jesus spends a lot of time in the gospels-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... doing this work.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Fulfilling this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... vision of the Messiah-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where he is confronting the corrupt leaders of Israel.And of the religious systems and so much so that the giant nemesis in a lot of people's minds in the gospel are the Pharisees.
Seth: That's right.
David: They're like the big bad guys.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they probably get a little too much of a bad rap.
Seth: Right.
David: But like what is it in the heart of God or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the heart of Jesus that would rather s- turn the weapons of war against his own people with-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... religious hypocrisy than against the nations that just outright deny him? Why does he reserve his worst words of wrath for internal hypocrites instead of external pagans?
Seth: Because the center of God's plans for the universe are h- is his temple.
David: Mm. The Jew.
Seth: The-
David: The one Jew, the one place
Seth: ... the Jew. When the temple is rebuilt, when God's presence comes back, that's how new creation starts.
David: Mm.
Seth: So if you are a priest of God's temple-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and you are maligning the God who will come back, if you are treating people unfairly, and he'll, he'll use some pretty strong words like you're, uh, stripping them for parts.
David: Mm.
Seth: You're selling your own sheep to feed yourselves and leaving only the hooves. Like-
David: Whoa
Seth: ... like these shepherds are malicious. They are stealing from their flock. They're using them th- for their own advantage. And so if you're acting like that when my place is supposed to be a place of new creation, it's supposed to p- be a place of life and feasting.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's what my presence is supposed to do, and you claim to work for me? No.
David: Mm.
Seth: You're the greatest threat to my kingdom.
David: Not the nations and the pagans out there.
Seth: Yeah. They're... All they have is horses. You are claiming to speak for me and my presence and my spirit that will take over the world, and that's the greatest threat to God's people.
David: Mm. It gives so much more color to what Jesus did then when he came and cleared the temple 'cause you had, you know, leaders in the temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with false measurements maybe, you know, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... doing money changing, selling-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... doves, all this kinda stuff. Jesus turns over the tables, and he says that zeal for God's house consumes him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like why was he so zealous against these people?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, it's 'cause it's the house of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's the center of God's salvation plan was this place and these-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... people and this moment.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And if you're trying to mess that up, that's not the th- the threat's not them out there. It's us in here.
Seth: The threat's not Rome.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Th- this is the real threat.
David: Man, that is-
Seth: Which-
David: I think that's just a pause and a good word for us today-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the church, that we always wanna make the biggest baddie the external threat.
Seth: Right.
David: It's secularization, and it's, it's the, it's the outside world.
Seth: Whatever.
David: And that's the biggest threat to the Church. It's like, no, we are the biggest threat to the Church.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But also we're the greatest boon for it, too-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when we live in, in right relationship with God and his kingdom.
Seth: The very last words of the Book of Zechariah-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the very last bit of hope in the Book of Zechariah is, "And there will no longer be a trader in the house of the Lord of Hosts."
David: And that's-
Seth: On that-
David: ... T-R-A-D-E-R
Seth: ... there were like-
David: Not like traitor, but trader
Seth: ... there were no, no long- no longer traders.
David: Oh.
Seth: No, no, people making money off of the sheep and the people in the temple of God. That's the, the final word of hope in the Book of Zechariah, and that is what Jesus does when he storms the temple. He makes sure there is no traders, no traitors to God-
David: Right
Seth: ... no traders of money and possessions fleecing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... his people. Like, that is part of the work of the kingly Messiah. The good shepherd comes to do away with the bad shepherds and bring true worship to God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and establish true leadership among his people.
David: I can see... I was gonna ask, like, man, why is that good news that God gets rid of the, the swindlers in his house? You know, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, uh, that seems, like, so granular or-
Seth: Right
David: ... economic or-
Seth: Okay
David: ... I don't know. But then I was like, oh, man, I can't think of how many people I know in my own life and how many millions of people there are in the world who that would be the best possible news in their walk with God.
Seth: Right.
David: That their experience of the house of God, it has just been full of swindlers-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and traders and-
Seth: People profiting off of God.
David: Yep, and just, like-
Seth: Taking advantage of Christians
David: ... all half-hearted, you know, disappointments, bad leaders.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the good news is that one day-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the house will be cleaned.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the only leader who will rule the body of Christ and the family of God, the kingdom of God, will be the good shepherd, Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we'll have no longer anything to fear of our leader. Like, that's just gonna be really good news for-
Seth: Mm
David: ... a lot of people who've suffered under bad leaders.
Seth: Yeah, and think about how so many of the epistles are written with false teachers in mind.
David: Almost all of them.
Seth: Almost all of them. Why? Because this has always been the people of God's primary problem.
David: Mm.
Seth: False leaders need to be dealt with because false leaders take advantage of the sheep and set up, as we said, like temples to their own trading. Remember th- those two women with the stork wings, they carry off wickedness, and they build a home in a measurement basket-
David: Right
Seth: ... for this idolatrous measurement basket. Why is it a measurement basket? Because the leaders of Israel have made an idol out of making money off the people of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: That will have its own home, and that home will be destroyed finally when God comes back.
David: Man, it's just crazy to think about how seriously God takes the integrity, even, like, how we use money, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, for the people who rule and work in his house and his home. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, it's like-
David: Think about, like, rounding errors make him more mad than idol worship.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's just, like, it's kind of-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... blowing my mind. I- I've asked you the question already, so I don't need to ask it again 'cause you answered it really well, but it's just that whole, like, why is that such a big deal to God?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think you, I think you really did answer it well. It's because people out there, you know, the, the Canaanites out there in the world, which at least in my footnote in my Bible-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the word trader at the very end is also Canaanite.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, like, the Canaanites out there in the world, the traders out there in the world aren't the problem.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They're gonna be out there doing their Canaanite thing. Canaanites in Canaan doing Canaanite things, no problem, no threat."I'll handle that", God says.
Seth: Yes.
David: But when Canaanites and their traitorly ways-
Seth: Mm
David: ... make their way into the house of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... they corrupt the system-
Seth: Mm.
David: .. the whole house.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then my mechanism for saving the world is compromised.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's why God takes it so seriously.
Seth: Yeah. And it's, it's also the opposite of the nations coming and becoming citizens of God's kingdom-
David: Oh
Seth: ... is when the shepherds of God's people become-
David: Become Canaanites
Seth: ... become Canaanites.
David: Stop it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's insane. Which is the story of the Bible.
Seth: Right.
David: It's, like, Judges is the whole story of Israel becoming Canaan.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh-
Seth: That's-
David: ... my gosh. Okay.
Seth: So that's, I mean, on the biggest level, like, so much of Zechariah could be summed up, if you're trying to get a picture in your head-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for how do we see Jesus as Zechariah, just think about
Seth: the triumphal entry when Jesus comes in on a donkey and undoes the unjust practices of the religious establishment during his day.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's one of the major hopes of the Book of Zechariah. After he does that, what does he do? He rebuilds a new temple in himself so that that temple could go out into all the world and give it peace.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's the s- broadest story of the Book of Zechariah, and it's the ultimate story of all history, which is the last several chapters, 12 through 14, just end on a more cosmic note than anything we've read so far, where there is a river coming out of Jerusalem, cleansing the people of the world of their sin. And that's Zechariah. Like-
David: Wow
Seth: ... God's pe- [laughs] when God's king comes, outs the bad shepherds, establishes a new temple in himself, he will forgive the whole world for those that come to him.
David: Zechariah might be, like, one of my new favorite books.
Seth: [laughs] It's pretty cool.
David: After this experience. Uh, man, I don't have anything to add to that. Thank you, Seth. This has been so cool. Um, thank you guys for listening, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I hope you guys now have a giant love for Zechariah and the king that it proclaims, like I do after this. I cannot wait. This is gonna be my morning devotional now for a while. I'm just gonna sit in this book.
Seth: C- can I give you just one more fun fact-
David: Oh
Seth: ... Jesus turn that we didn't get-
David: I will take anything you got for me
Seth: ... to get? So a- after he has this oracle against the false shepherds, God tells Zechariah to do these, like, enacted parables.
David: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And so he's told to act like a faithful shepherd of the people.
David: Okay. And an enacted parable, this is like when Hosea married Gomer.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's, like, an enacted parable.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: And so he does this whole thing, and then his acted parable represents God breaking his covenant with Israel and sending them into exile.
David: Wait, what did he do?
Seth: Annulled his covenant with Israel is the words that Zechariah uses.
David: But, no, what did, uh, Zechariah do to e- enact that parable?
Seth: He had a staff in his hand-
David: Okay
Seth: ... called Grace.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he broke the staff called Grace-
David: Oh
Seth: ... as a symbol of God sending his people into exile.
David: So he was, like, out there, he was a good shepherd.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the name of his staff was Grace. And then in front of all the sheep, he just broke it.
Seth: Yes.
David: And-
Seth: In front of the, specifically the shepherds-
David: Oh
Seth: ... other shepherds. He breaks it.
David: How, do we know how long he was out there being a shepherd?
Seth: No idea. [laughs]
David: 'Cause I wonder, like, what that was like.
Seth: It, it, I have no idea.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: Um, and then when he does that, the other shepherds say-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... okay, he, he demands the other shepherds, "Okay. I've been a shepherd for a while. Pay me what you think I'm owed."
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: And he says they give him 30 pieces of shil- silver.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: And then he takes that 30 pieces of silver, and he throws it into the temple to the potter.
David: What?
Seth: So if you remember the story of Jesus-
David: Oh my gosh
Seth: ... Judas comes, betrays Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then he, they throw it into the te- and he throws it into the temple, and they buy a potter's field for it.
David: Right.
Seth: Okay?
David: It's all beat for beat what happened-
Seth: Right
David: ... here in Zechariah.
Seth: And the idea in Zechariah is that, "If you really valued me as your shepherd, you would've done what I said-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... not paid me some money."
David: Right.
Seth: And in the story of Jesus, if the shepherds of Israel, the high priest plotting his murder would've really understood who he was, they would've been trying to buy him off. They would've listened to him. They would've understood who, that he was the true Messiah, the true good shepherd of Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: And at the very end of the Book of Zechariah, right before the thing we read about, there are no more mercenary traders in-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... the house of the Lord, it says this, "And every pot, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the Lord of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them."
David: Okay.
Seth: So let's rewind a little bit.
David: Okay.
Seth: Why throw it to the potter? What was a potter's role in the house of the Lord?
David: Making the holy vessels.
Seth: Making the holy vessels.
David: Yes.
Seth: How does God's kingdom overturn the nations? When the craftsmen of the temple do their job.
David: Right.
Seth: So the refusal of Zechariah to accept their money-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and his rejection by the false teachers-
David: Right
Seth: ... it actually, and he hands the money back to those who will rebuild the temple and really bring God's presence to come.
David: He goes and funds the craftsmen.
Seth: He funds the craftsmen and does the work of a good shepherd. Even in the people's rejection of him, he will rebuild the temple. He will bring God's presence, and then God's new creation will come.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: [laughs]
David: What in the world?
Seth: So, so in Jesus' rejection-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for 30 pieces of silver-
David: Right
Seth: ... and we have money's thrown back into the temple, he's repeating the story of Zechariah. He says, "No, when the temple is rebuilt, God's kingdom will come, and here's the money to pay for the, here's the money to pay for it, 30 pieces of sh- silver." It's ironic, because it's for his death, but it's the same idea.
David: Yeah. And, and in a way, it's in, in the money going to a death field, you know, w- what else got brought into the temple traditionally was the blood of the sacrifice-
Seth: Oh
David: ... would get brought into the temple, and, and you would have to use the vessels of cleaning in order to enter into the temple. You'd have to use-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... those, that, that earth-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... those earthenware vessels to do it. And Jesus is saying, like, it's not gonna beThe, like silver that buys actual brick and mortar-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that's gonna save the world anymore.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's going to be, uh, people who aren't inhabited by, you know, actual earthen vessels of holiness.
Seth: Oh, I see.
David: But it's me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and my death, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... given to them, the, the riches, the 30 pieces of silver of, of who I am to them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is going to not only put a holy vessel in their house, which
David: breaks so many Levitical laws-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... can I just say, first off. Uh, so like that's unprecedented what Zechariah is saying is going to happen.
Seth: Oh.
David: Is he's saying that like everybody can be a priest, everybody can be clean and holy, everybody can have a temple in their home. Like that is like, that is shattering-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for the Levitical system.
Seth: Right. What, but you know why?
David: It democratizes it.
Seth: Well, it's because there's a river flowing from Jerusalem of forgiveness.
David: That everybody can go dip their jars in?
Seth: Dip their vessels in-
David: Oh my gosh
Seth: ... and receive forgiveness. So by being rejected and receiving the sum of 30 pieces of silver-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... Jesus is able to purchase the river of forgiveness for everybody to dip their bowls into.
David: Oh my gosh, which is the Holy Spirit too, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like coming and-
Seth: Yeah, Holy Spirit, yes
David: ... coming and living in us.
Seth: All the things always is [laughs] what's happening.
David: Oh my gosh, that is incredible. I also just can't help but think too that like the staff that Zechariah the shepherd broke-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the staff of grace, that in his rejection as the good shepherd, he broke the staff of grace and the covenant with his people.
Seth: Right.
David: But when Jesus the good shepherd was rejected, he put the staff back together.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now he rules his sheep with grace.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, I'm glad you had that one last stop in Zechariah.
Seth: [laughs]
David: That was amazing. I think we could spend a whole episode unpacking it, but we'll leave it to you, all listeners, to go continue-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... on the depths of that. Well, that has been the Book of Zechariah.
Seth: Yes.
David: Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Seth, for taking us through it. Uh, we appreciate you all so much, and we will see you next week. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]