Seth: [upbeat music] I think maybe one of the biggest level way to think about the gospel in the Book of Zechariah is that if you return to God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if you really return, not just physically return to a space-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but return to the values of the kingdom, God has prepared a leader who will create the people of God through God's spirits and who will purify that people so that the world is theirs to inherit. [upbeat music]
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are starting the book of Zechariah today.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Gonna look at that. Seth, are you excited? How you feeling?
Seth: I am excited. I, uh, have prepared very differently for this one.
David: Oh, yeah?
Seth: So I'm excited.
David: How's, how so?
Seth: I-
David: Did you actually read it this time? [laughs]
Seth: I actually read the Bible this time. And I... Well, normally in these overviews, it's like, let's get you a picture of the main themes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I'm like, I think I'm gonna be able to walk you, David, and thereby our audience-
David: Yes
Seth: ... through every major movement of the book of Zechariah-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... as a story-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Lord willing. [laughs]
David: Yeah. That does sound exciting. Okay.
Seth: So I'm excited.
David: I mean, I am coming in pretty cold to this podcast.
Seth: Okay.
David: What should I have in my brain when I'm thinking about the book of Zechariah? Like, what's the situation?
Seth: The hope of the book of Zechariah is
Seth: if the temple is rebuilt-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... God's kingdom will come.
David: If the temple is rebuilt-
Seth: God-
David: ... God's kingdom will come. So that means the temple's not built right now.
Seth: The temple is not built right now.
David: And what does it mean to say that the t- the kingdom of God is not here yet?
Seth: For Zechariah, what it means is that when God's kingdom comes, there is peace for the people of Israel. The people of Israel are reconstituted from all the nations of the world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they've been scattered to, and also, the Messiah comes.
David: A, a new anointed king.
Seth: A new anointed king comes.
David: Oh, that makes, that makes sense. So what happened? There, there's not a king in Israel right now-
Seth: There's not a king
David: ... therefore, there's not a kingdom. That makes sense.
Seth: And then the king comes, and this king does a whole bunch of great things, like create a global kingdom where there's forgiveness of sins-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and peace from all their enemies. So that's the kingdom of God, forgiveness of sins, peace from enemies, a good, just king on the throne.
David: So much more in the line than another, like, a nation that has gone defunct and, like, has lost their monarchy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, we just wanna be reconstitution at a, reconstituted-
Seth: Right
David: ... as a nation state. It's like, no, when Israel's king comes back, the nations have their sins forgiven. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's, it's a lot [laughs]... I'm losing a lot here.
Seth: Yeah. The book ends with a river flowing out of Jerusalem, forgiving the sins of the people as they-
David: Mm
Seth: ... wash in its waters.
David: So it's interesting then for a book so focused on the temple that doesn't exist yet, needing to be rebuilt, and a king needing to come back to reestablish kingdom. That all happens in Israel, Jerusalem.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: But it has such a global focus.
Seth: Yep.
David: That seems kind of counterintuitive.
Seth: And it's kind of part of the point of the book of Zechariah.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's like starting in Jerusalem, an asylum for the world is-
David: Mm
Seth: ... created, where people can flock to and experience the kingdom of God.
David: That's cool.
Seth: That's kind of the idea.
David: Okay.
Seth: So to get there-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we need to remember that Israel has been in exile for a long time. Um, and before that, we need to remember that Israel used to be a kingdom with kings.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: And as that kingdom of Israel developed, it fractured into two different nations, Judah in the south and Israel in the north.
David: Right.
Seth: And then Assyria took over Israel, then Babylon took over Judah, and all of God's people have been living in Babylon for close to 70 years now.
David: Okay. So i- so where does Zechariah then take place, in the northern or southern kingdom?
Seth: So neither.
David: Oh.
Seth: Because neither really exists right now.
David: Oh.
Seth: All the nations are gone.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But under the reign of King Cyrus and King Darius, a certain delegation of Jews are allowed to go back to Israel and rebuild the temple.
David: Okay.
Seth: And this is the big-
David: And that is, that is in Judah, that... Or what was, what formally-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the artist formerly known as Judah.
Seth: Yes. And so I think politically at that time, it was called Yehud-
David: Oh
Seth: ... which is just a different thing.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But so here, so this is actually a really important point-
David: Okay
Seth: ... just to get at, like, the religio-political drama-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that's happening behind the scenes. So Israel's in exile for 70 years. Cyrus and Darius send them back into Israel to rebuild the temple.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what's interesting about just that fact is that during their 70 years in exile, Jerusalem, the place where the temple was supposed to be, and all the surrounding lands, had kinda just become this melting pot of all the different people around there.
David: Mm.
Seth: You had, um, people, Judean citizens who never left and just stayed there for 70 years. You had northern I- Israelites who moved into that land and settled there while other Judeans were in Babylon. You had just foreigners who-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... had moved there while Israel was in Babylon. And now you have a new band of returning exiles to the place that is supposed to be the people of Israel's home.
David: So-
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah. I have, like, in my head, like, a war-torn land-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where you have, you know-... people who were there who didn't get carted away, left with very little.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then as land opens up, people who are, uh, you know, right around the border start seeing areas that they can move into and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... it's a lawless land and they, they-
Seth: That's right
David: ... move in and start squatting, and-
Seth: So that's-
David: Is that kind of what I should have in my head?
Seth: That, totally.
David: Feels like the Wild West.
Seth: So when you open the Book of Zechariah or this period of history, there's a really live question, who does the land of Judah and Jerusalem belong to?
David: Uh, from, not, like from a, is that a theological question or a political question?
Seth: It's both.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, everybody could lay some social or squatter's claim to it, right?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, "I've lived here for 50 years. Everybody just left."
David: "I never left."
Seth: "You're the ones who left."
David: Right, right, right.
Seth: But then religiously, almost all the people would've been familiar with the religious idea of God's remnant, the true and pure people of God. Those were the people that would inherit God's kingdom and God's land. But the question is, who's the true remnant?
David: Right, 'cause, like, I, I guess it wouldn't be hard for the people who stayed around to think that-
Seth: Right
David: ... "We're the ones"
Seth: "No, we're the true. We never left."
David: "We're literally the ones who remained."
Seth: Yes.
David: "We are quite literally the physical remnant here in Judah."
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or is it the ones that remain faithful to God even while-
David: In exile
Seth: ... in exile, b- in pagan Babylon?
David: Interesting.
Seth: Or is it the long lost, uh, northern tribes who return to the capital city-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and now-
David: We repented. We came
Seth: ... and we came to the right place.
David: Mm. We sojourned and left everything behind and-
Seth: Right
David: ... came to this war-torn city. We, we laid claim to it.
Seth: So it's into this kind of like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... super mixed and religious-
David: Or-
Seth: ... and political, social situation that the Book of Zechariah-
David: Is a-
Seth: ... is happening.
David: Are the nations also doing something similar? Like, 'cause it's like the Ca- are there any, like, Canaanites or Philistines around? Are they like, "We were here first"? [laughs]
Seth: Uh, I would not doubt that.
David: Yeah, okay. [laughs]
Seth: Um, and what makes this even more tense is that during that time, Babylon had given a certain section of land called Samaria-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... to be ruled from the capital city Samaria.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then when they sent Israel back, they carved out a giant circle around Jerusalem and called it Yehud and said-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... "That's where God's people are gonna live."
David: Oh, so they just took a chunk out of Samaria-
Seth: Right
David: ... and said, "Sorry, guys, we're giving that land to somebody else."
Seth: Yes. And then gave it a new governor eventually named Zerubbabel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who is a descendant of King David.
David: So it's a huge-
Seth: It's-
David: ... political threat to the king of Samaria.
Seth: Yes. Samaria resents the loss of their land, and if you read the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, they spend 20 years try to stop the rebuilding project.
David: It's like, [laughs] it's like if, I don't know the right countries or states to name, but it's like if Russia just sent a delegation to Texas and just said, "Dallas now belongs to Russia-
Seth: [laughs] Yeah
David: ... and here's the new king that's gonna live there."
Seth: Yes.
David: T- Texas would not be happy about that.
Seth: Texas would not be happy with that.
David: [laughs] If you live in Texas-
Seth: Um
David: ... we're not, we're not saying anything. [laughs]
Seth: We're not saying anything. But I mean, it's also just pretty, seems a lot like what's happening in Israel now.
David: Right. Totally.
Seth: Like, carving up-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Interesting. Okay.
Seth: Um, and so this is why in the Book of Ezra, chapter 4, you read 20 years of intervention by the Samarian officials.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so by the time we get to Zechariah, what happens is that Samarian intervention l- means the temple is stopped being built for two years.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: For two years, no work has been done on the temple. God's people are kinda hopeless. Nobody really knows who God's people are, who should really inherit the land. It's just a mess.
David: Mm-hmm. So they, they've, they've come to Jerusalem, this faithful remnant has come to Jerusalem. They thought they were inheriting, like, the spiritual authority to come in and rebuild the temple. The surrounding Samaritans stopped them, and now they're, like, stalled out and wondering how and who should move forward.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. I, I'm following. Yep.
Seth: And so Zechariah, along with his partner Haggai, come on the scene at the same time.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it's under their ministry that the rebuilding of the temple starts and is completed.
David: Okay. So how, do you know how long that-
Seth: Four years.
David: Four years.
Seth: So they come the second year of King Darius, and the sixth year of King Darius, the temple is finished building.
David: Okay, so in a four-year time, they come in, convince the people to start building the temple again.
Seth: That's right.
David: And by the end of that four-year ministry, it's built.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. This is really helpful.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. So I was like, oh, that is so helpful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to know what's going on in the world around them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, and so what makes Zechariah kind of a fun prophet to study is that he is successful.
David: Right. Not a lot of [laughs] Israel-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... Israel's prophets were very successful from the, like, actually getting out of their prophecies what they hoped.
Seth: Right. A lot of the time-
David: They were successful in that they were faithful to God and what they said was true
Seth: ... and that it would come true eventually.
David: Yeah, but like-
Seth: But
David: ... the people didn't repent most of the time. [laughs]
Seth: Zechariah calls Israel to repent, to rebuild the temple, and they do. They do repent.
David: Mm.
Seth: They do rebuild the temple. And so the expectations in the middle and end of Zechariah's ministry are really intense. You told us to do this 'cause God's kingdom would come, so what's it gonna look like?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what the Book of Zechariah's about.
David: Oh, like what God's kingdom's gonna look like when it comes?
Seth: Yeah. Like-
David: Oh, now I really wanna read this book. [laughs]
Seth: Like, we're, we're so close, aren't we, Zechariah?
David: We did everything you said. We are returning to God. What's going to happen? What's it-
Seth: Whoa
David: ... going to look like? And he gives answers?
Seth: He gives answers.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He gives eight dreams and two visions.
David: Oh, all right.
Seth: So it gets weird.
David: It, it's gonna get crazy. [laughs]
Seth: This gets weird.
David: Okay.
Seth: But that's what's on the line. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so that's the background. That's what's going on. You even told us what's going to happen. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? So, but how does the book open? Like, let's get into the book, out of the history and into the book.
Seth: Yeah. My hope is that I'll just take you on a journey through the Book of Zechariah, and you can be like, "Is this how we see Jesus?"
David: Let's go.
Seth: So, um-
David: I've got my coffee. I'm in my chair.
Seth: So-
David: Let's go
Seth: ... basically, the first six verses just function as an introduction to one of the main themes of the book, which in verse 3 is this, "Return to me," says the Lord, "And I will return to you," says the Lord.
David: Mm.
Seth: So if Israel returns, if they repent, if they turn away from the sins that caused their exile in the first place, if they rebuild the temple, if they return to the rebuilding project, God's presence will come and live in Israel again.
David: Return seems like a-Interesting word choice.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that a Hebrew word that's translated, like, a bunch of different ways, and here the English authors chose return, or is it actually return?
Seth: Yeah.
David: If the argument's around which one's the faithful remnant and, well, who stayed, who came back, didn't we already return when we left Babylon to come here as a faithful remnant? Didn't we do that part? Like, what is he asking them to do in saying return? He's like, "We did. We're here."
Seth: Right.
David: It seems like a, a strange request.
Seth: Yeah, it's an interesting question because in one sense Israel has already returned, but in a deeper and truer sense, Zechariah wants to tell them that just returning to the land is not a true returning.
David: Oh. I mean, yeah, that would, that would help clear up some of the debate then 'cause it's like, cool, you came from Samaria, you came from the north of Israel, you came from the nations, you came home from exile. Everyone's returned.
Seth: Right.
David: But what, what's actually happened? Everything's sold.
Seth: What's, what's a real returning look like?
David: Mm. And it's a theological, spiritual-
Seth: Yeah. Part of it is the physical act of rebuilding the temple.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Actually take up your shovels, take up your mortars again.
David: Mm.
Seth: Start mixing cement. Like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... returning actually means returning to the purpose for which Jerusalem exists.
David: Oh, like-
Seth: I mean, the-
David: ... come back to the construction site.
Seth: Yes, come back to the, the construction site.
David: Oh, interesting.
Seth: But it also has a spiritual and moral element.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The next verse says, "Don't be like your fathers, to whom the former prophets cried out. Thus says the Lord of Hosts, 'Return from your evil ways-
David: Ah
Seth: ... and from your evil deeds.'" What he's saying, and this theme gets picked up throughout the rest of Zechariah, is, like, it's not just enough to physically return.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You must, like, morally return to God, to His laws, to His commands, and to Hi- the way that He wants us to live in His kingdom.
David: Is there something different on the line than repentance, or is that, like, a good synonym?
Seth: I think it's a good synonym.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's not the word-
David: Right
Seth: ... Zechariah uses, but it is a good synonym. Repent from those sins.
David: Mm.
Seth: But in another sense, it's also, I guess repentance and returning has that same idea of, like, you were somewhere and now you should be somewhere else.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So we're gonna say, like, he mentions the generations of their fathers. Like, they didn't commit the sins of their fathers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but they need to return from them, and repenting is the same kinda thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think you're right.
David: Okay.
Seth: There, there is a sense that repentance is a very good synonym-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the language of returning.
David: Yeah. Return does something a little different 'cause I feel like when I repent from something-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it, it could be turning to something I never was at before.
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, I, I, I've always done this wrong thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and to repent is to turn away from that wrong thing and start doing the right thing for the first time.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I can't return somewhere I've never been.
Seth: That's true.
David: So I have to have been somewhere-
Seth: Mm. Yeah
David: ... at some point in my history-
Seth: Yes
David: ... left it, and then-
Seth: Yes
David: ... need to come back.
Seth: Yeah. These are God's covenant people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who left God's covenant land-
David: Right
Seth: ... and now are returning to God's covenant place.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And, like, that means a return to God's ways, too, a return-
David: Mm
Seth: ... not, a return not just to a physical space, but a return to the, the laws, the covenant, the relationship that they agreed to all the way back when Israel was made a nation with God.
David: Mm. Yeah. That makes sense.
Seth: So I think that's right. That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Cool. So that sets up the main idea behind the book. Return to God and He will return to you.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then we get eight consecutive dreams explaining how that will look, and the dreams are kind of weird.
David: Okay. So this was gonna answer my question-
Seth: Yes
David: ... 'cause I was gonna ask, we talked about what it means for us to return to God, but what does it mean for God to return to us? And that's what the dreams answer?
Seth: That's what the dreams answer.
David: Okay, good, 'cause I was like,
David: w- what's he-
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like, was he, was he gone? What's the land look like when He's not there versus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when He is there?
Seth: So there are eight dreams, and the best way to think about these dreams are like the letter V.
David: Okay.
Seth: So you have a dream at the beginning and the end about horses.
David: Are those at the-
Seth: At the-
David: ... top of the, of each-
Seth: The top of the V
David: ... line of the V. Okay.
Seth: Yeah. And then you have in the middle these, uh, visions that talk about the creation of the people of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the purifying of the people of God.
David: Okay.
Seth: And at the very bottom of the V, you have these two more visions about the leaders of Israel that will make it happen.
David: The leaders. Okay. Got it.
Seth: So just, just, like, we're just gonna go down and then up again and come back to similar themes and ideas.
David: I see.
Seth: So it's like the i- the two sides of the V are the same shape-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... because they repeat each other. Themes are repeated on either, either side of the V.
David: What were the top two again?
Seth: The top two are visions of horses.
David: Horses?
Seth: Yes.
David: At the top.
Seth: Horses.
David: And then p- like purifying?
Seth: A purify- uh, well, a creation and a purifying.
David: A creation and a purifying, and the leaders that will make it happen.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Horses, creation, purifying, leaders that will make it happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, okay.
Seth: So the horses.
David: So we're starting at one end of the V, and we're gonna go down-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and then back up.
Seth: So the, it begins with, the best way I could say this is, like, God's counter intelligent forces. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Wait, are you saying God has a CIA?
Seth: Zechariah has a vision of four horses who meet, or three horses that meet a fourth horse with a rider on it, and the person riding this horse is named the Angel of the Lord.
David: Oh, I'm, I'm having thoughts on this one. [laughs]
Seth: And the three horses communicate to this one rider that the entire earth is at peace. So think of, like, the ancient police force-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... the ancient Persian army patrolled their empire on horseback.
David: Oh, sure, yeah.
Seth: And they would bring back messages from the lands that they conquered to the general and say, "All is at peace. Oh, this town is at war. This town is having this problem."
David: Oh.
Seth: They would report. They were the intelligence force-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of the Persian army. But in this vision, it's God's intelligent force.
David: Mm.
Seth: His horses have gone throughout the world and come back to their general, the Angel of the Lord-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and told him the entire world is at rest.
David: Is that... Oh, is that... Oh, wait, I was like, that's not happening, but that's, this is a vision of what will happen-
Seth: Well-
David: ... when-
Seth: Yes
David: ... God comes back?
Seth: So it's a symbol of what is happening somewhat geopolitically. There are no major wars. Persia is the main-... power-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... at this point. There is no major military threat to their dominance.
David: I understand.
Seth: Uh, so it's like the world is relatively-
David: Right
Seth: ... at peace compared to other eras.
David: Okay.
Seth: But at this announcement of peace, the angel of the Lord is upset.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: And he says, "How long, God, will you have no mercy on Jerusalem-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the cities of Judah, against which you have been angry these 70 years?"
David: Oh, because Jerusalem is in shambles. The temple's not rebuilt.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And if all the nation's at peace, that's bad news-
Seth: Right
David: ... 'cause God's not waging war against His enemies to put His people back in His land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's part- that's part of what's on the line.
David: Okay.
Seth: And God's people are in ruins. Like, how, like, so what if the world's at peace-
David: Right
Seth: ... if your people are nowhere to be found, if they're at peace in the nations far away?
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: Oh, I, oh, I see what you're saying. It's like, who cares if it's good news for everybody else-
Seth: Right
David: ... your people aren't even a, barely a people anymore.
Seth: Right.
David: So, like, why are we even talking about peace at this point?
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then the Lord answers the angel-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... with good news, with gospel.
David: Okay
Seth: Gracious and comforting words, and says, "The Lord of Hosts loves Jerusalem and Zion." The word is jealous.
David: Mm.
Seth: Loves Jerusalem and Zion, and he's extremely angry with the nations that are at ease.
David: Mm.
Seth: "For while I was angry but a little, they furthered the disaster. Therefore," says the Lord, "I will return to Jerusalem with mercy. My house shall be built in it," declares the Lord of Hosts, "and cry out this message to all the people."
David: Oh, so his police force become couriers of the gospel?
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: Interesting. Okay.
Seth: Um, or that could even be a direct message to Zechariah-
David: Zechariah-
Seth: ... at that point
David: ... to go tell people that. Okay.
Seth: To go tell people-
David: Okay
Seth: ... this message.
David: Crazy.
Seth: So the angel of the Lord asks, "Why aren't you showing mercy?" God responds, "No, I love my people."
David: I'm jealous for them.
Seth: I'm jealous for them. I want them to be my people. I'm angry at the nations and the brutality they exacted when I handed Israel over to them.
David: Mm-hmm. Right.
Seth: I'm coming to punish that brutality, but also, I will come back to my people.
David: Mm.
Seth: So that's the first vision.
David: Okay.
Seth: So how, the question then is like, "Okay, I'm gonna come back to my people, but how am I gonna do that? What's that gonna look like? These nations are monstrous. How are you going to recreate a nation that is a, is a pocket within a pocket of a province within a province-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of Persian power?"
David: Right. Yeah, that makes sense, 'cause I guess in, in the logic of the people's minds at this point, they, they might be thinking, like, "Does God even wanna come home?" Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... Zechariah's saying, "Return to me and I'll return to you." It's like, yeah right, prove it. It's like, well, here's a vision-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that the Lord showed me.
Seth: It's like He's jealous for you.
David: He's jealous for you. He wants to come home, and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and His army is going to make sure that it happens.
Seth: Yep.
David: Okay.
Seth: Well, what's fascinating is that the army doesn't make it happen.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: The next vision happens.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: In the next vision, there are four horns representing the four kingdoms that have come up against Israel in the past.
David: Okay. Yep.
Seth: Like Assyria, Babylon-
David: Babylon
Seth: ... Persia-
David: Persia
Seth: ... the Me- and the Medes and the Persians.
David: The Medes and Persians.
Seth: And then verse 20, "The Lord showed me four craftsmen."
David: Craftsmen.
Seth: It's the same word used to describe the builders of the temple in the Book of Deuteronomy.
David: Oh.
Seth: They're temple craftsmen.
David: I see.
Seth: They're metalworkers. They're artists.
David: So, okay, so it's not swords. It's-
Seth: It's-
David: ... the rebuilding of the temple.
Seth: He said, "These are the horns that scattered Judah, these nations."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "But these craftsmen will terrify them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and they will cast down the horns of the nation who lift up their horns against the Lord and Judah to scatter it."
David: Mm.
Seth: So the second vision is, so how is God going to r- make his people a people? How is he gonna overthrow the powers of the world? With temple craftsmen-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the people who rebuild the temple. So to a people who are totally hopeless that the temple-building project will do anything-
David: Right
Seth: ... Zechariah says, "No, no, no. You are how the nations get pushed back."
David: Mm. That is interesting, 'cause I hadn't thought about that. Where [laughs] it's like, look, the geopolitical situation, the economic situation, everything here is terrible. Why should we make priority number one rebuilding the temple when the whole world's at rest and we don't have a home?
Seth: Right.
David: So he's like, "Go build the temple. I promise that's what's, that's the, that's the army that God's gonna use."
Seth: Yeah. He's gonna use the artists and the metalworkers to bring-
David: Mm
Seth: ... victory and a place for God's people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then the next vision expands upon that idea.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So it's like okay, we've got metalworkers rebuilding the temple. This is how the t- nations are gonna be terrified. How is that even possible? What, what is it my working of the pomegranates that trace up a vine gonna accomplish-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... against nations? Against-
David: Right.
Seth: Well, verse two
Seth: is a image of a man with a measuring line in his hand.
David: Okay.
Seth: So it's like imagine a surveyor's line or somebody, like, measuring coordinates or the perimeter of a city.
David: Okay.
Seth: And the idea is this man is measuring the perimeter of a city, and then
Seth: we have God coming and landing in the middle of the boundaries that this man stretches out.
David: Oh.
Seth: And instead of walls, there is, of stone, there is a wall of fire-
David: Oh my gosh
Seth: ... that surrounds the, the border of the town of Jerusalem. God's presence lives in that space, and then the whole world is told to come up, up to the place that is protected by fire.
David: Whoa.
Seth: So [laughs] and so there's a whole bunch of s- interesting ideas wrapped up in here.
David: Okay. Can I s-
Seth: So keep on going
David: ... can I try to, can I try to get back to where we are?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Okay. All right. So the people of Israel-Have come home, they've tried to reconstitute themselves. They started rebuilding the temple, but Samaria stopped them, so they don't have a temple, and they've kinda given up.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: They're completely despondent at the whole idea. Zechariah comes and says, "Rebuild the temple. Return to God, and he will return to you." And they're like, "Yeah, right. No, he won't." And he's like, "Yes. Let me tell you this vision. Like, the Go- like, the, the, the God's angel army is upset that the whole world's at rest and you don't have a home-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and so is God. He's jealous for you. He's gonna come."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And how is, how is he gonna come? By you getting the work done. Go build the temple."
Seth: Rebuild the temple. Do it. That's important work.
David: "And when, when you rebuild the temple, it's gonna be in the center of God's territory-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he is going to come down into the temple, be present with you again, and you'll not just only be surrounded by walls of stone that could fall. You'll be surrounded by a wall of fire-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... and you will go up and up into his presence."
Seth: Yeah.
David: The... Is that-
Seth: And you, yeah, cut, and all the nations of the world will come through the fire-
David: Oh
Seth: ... into God's presence-
David: Oh, I missed that part
Seth: ... to live with him forever.
David: Oh, my. [laughs]
Seth: And which the, the, the wall of fire should make you think of a couple different things.
David: Okay.
Seth: It should make you think of the protective wall of fire that happened as Israel was escaping from Egypt.
David: Right, yeah, and, and like-
Seth: And-
David: ... what, it's what's, like, stopped Pharaoh from-
Seth: Yes
David: ... coming into the Red Sea.
Seth: Yep. Or you should think of the wall or the swords of fire preventing access to the Garden of Eden. Like, fire-
David: Oh
Seth: ... is the barrier between the enemies of God and God's people and God's presence, the place where God is.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: So God is saying, "If you do the small work, just putting stone on top of stone-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... metal on top of metal, I will come, and I will create a new Eden in which all nations of the world can be blessed, and all your enemies will be destroyed if they come against the wall of fire unworthily, and you will be the people of God again."
David: Whoa. What do I do with that?
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs] Like, what do I do with that? I think it, I th- okay, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who's hearing this, hearing Zechariah say this, and I think it would be easy for me to be really cynical-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and be like, "This just sounds like propaganda." [laughs]
Seth: Great.
David: Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... trying to get me to believe that if I just rebuild this religious site, all of the sudden, all my problems are gonna be solved. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: It just sounds, like, too easy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like there are big political realities out there-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... waging against us. Why is it that the temple being rebuilt is the thing that's actually gonna fix all our problems?
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's your question.
David: That's my question.
Seth: I think it could sound like propaganda-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... to those who are not truly returning.
David: Mm.
Seth: They're just returning to a place.
David: Right. They don't know the significance or why it's so important.
Seth: People who are truly returning to the kingdom of God have always known that this is a place that has special import for the entire world.
David: Mm.
Seth: To return to God's kingdom is to return to the promises made in the Book of Genesis.
David: Mm.
Seth: To return to God's kingdom is to return to what God promised Abraham, that he would bless the whole world. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to return to God's kingdom has always been the hope of the entire world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so people who are truly returning know that simple acts of rebuilding actually precipitate the end of the world and God's purposes for it.
David: That makes a ton of sense. So then I guess my question is for those people-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for the faithful remnant who actually want God's kingdom to come, know what it means, are they expecting to rebuild the temple and for God himself, like, like he did back in Solomon's day-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... to come and just fill the temple and actually, like, drop meteors around the border of their land-
Seth: Right, right, right, right, right. [laughs]
David: ... and, like, what's their, what's their expect- Do they know there's, like, something... Like, is there something, like, apocalyptic about-
Seth: Mm
David: ... Zechariah's language? Or is-
Seth: Zechariah feels more hopeful than apocalyptic.
David: Okay.
Seth: But in the Book of Ezra-Nehemiah, when the temple is finally rebuilt, they, like, weep and wail, that-
David: Right
Seth: ... it's not as majestic as it was back in the day.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But Zechariah will tell them to not despise the day of small things.
David: Mm.
Seth: This is... Sure, it's not as impressive. It's a day of small things. We all know that. This isn't the way it's supposed to be, but it is a day nevertheless that marks the advent and advancing of God's kingdom.
David: I see.
Seth: Right?
David: So in a way, maybe this is wrong to say-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... but in a way, it was just a construction project. [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... 'cause, like, it's not like, "And the last brick is laid, and boom, there's God."
Seth: Right. Right.
David: It's, it was a symbol. It was-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like-
Seth: don't we have to see this as a symbol if we want to get to Jesus eventually, right? [laughs]
David: Yeah, or I'm just like, oh, y- I mean, they had to have the expectation that something like that would happen.
Seth: Right.
David: Otherwise, Zechariah wouldn't need to tell them, "Don't despise the day of small things."
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause they're, they're gonna be like, "Okay, so where's the Messiah? We built the temple."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Where's our new king?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Where's the glory smoke of God?"
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, "No, there's something else coming."
Seth: Well, it's interesting that you're asking questions about leadership-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... because remember, at the bottom of the V-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the leaders who will make it happen.
David: Right.
Seth: So we've just start, we've just talked about the creation of God's new-
David: Oh, the, the fire thing was the-
Seth: Yeah, like, that's the-
David: So are we still in the middle of the V? We're not at the bottom yet?
Seth: That's that. That's the last step in the bottom of the V, and then at the very bottom is-
David: Oh
Seth: ... the leaders who will make it happen.
David: Okay.
Seth: So say, "Okay, you go- okay, great, I get it. We've got God's intelligence patrol has told us that he loves Israel and that he will end the world order as it stands and reconstitute Jerusalem. How will he do it? Through temple craftsmen, and then after temple craftsmen, a wall of fire. Got it."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "Great. Who's doing that again?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Is exactly what you're asking-
David: Right, yeah
Seth: ... in one sense or another. And so he, in chapter three and four, Zechariah talks about a man named Joshua.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he, he is the high priest at the time Zechariah is doing ministry.
David: There was a high priest but not a temple?
Seth: Yes.
David: What's going on there?[laughs]
Seth: I'm not sure. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I don't have a great answer but- except to say, like, God's people knew they needed a way to atone for their sins-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to make, be made right with God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And a high priest was part of that.
David: Were they practicing, like, some of the temple rituals without the temple?
Seth: I don't know.
David: Okay. 'Cause that'd be a big no-no.
Seth: Right.
David: Unless I guess they were doing it on-
Seth: On the temple-
David: ... the foundation
Seth: ... the site. And I think our staff writer Christine told us that that was part of the problem, was that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... they were offering sacrifices in the Book of Haggai without first rebuilding the temple.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Joshua is an anticipatory role. In, in his best light, he's anticipatory.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's what will happen soon for Israel.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, and like he's there for when the temple's rebuilt four years from now to start offering sacrifices.
David: I think that helps round out the picture a little bit for me because I've just been picturing, like, a slab of concrete-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a- and like some debris.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's the decimated temple. And it's like, "Go, put it back up. You know, construct the building." But if they're, if people are actually using that site to-
Seth: Uh
David: ... and there was an altar there and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they're coming in and they're making the sacrifice, but they're missing the whole story that the temple was meant to tell through how it was built-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what the imagery in it was, everything it represented, God's like, "You are missing the point of the temple. It wasn't just this transactional thing that you could come do."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "It wasn't just your local holy butcher shop."
Seth: Right.
David: "There was more going on there."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And you're, like, you gotta return. You gotta come back and-
Seth: You gotta return
David: ... and build this thing."
Seth: And you've gotta return to the right operating of it, which needs a high priest.
David: Right.
Seth: Namely Joshua.
David: Right.
Seth: And so Joshua comes and in this vision, Zechariah sees Joshua.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And Joshua tells him, or the angel tells Joshua to remove all these dirty clothes that he's wearing.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he says, "In removing those dirty clothes, I'm taking your sins away from you, and I'm gonna clothe you with pure clothes." And he puts a clean turban on his head. And it's a symbol that through Joshua, the sins of Israel are going to be cleansed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's not just that God's place is gonna be surrounded by a wall of fire.
David: Mm.
Seth: The people inside God's place will be forgiven of their sins, cleansed of their sin.
David: Mm.
Seth: All the dirt and grime that caused them to go into exile-
David: Right
Seth: ... will be washed away from them.
David: Yeah, it's like, well, what gives the people inside the wall of fire the right to be there if the people outside, if they didn't approach God appropriately, they'd be burned up.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... wouldn't the fire just keep coming inside and consuming-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... all the other people who are unqualified? It's like no. You-
Seth: Or maybe a different way to think about it.
David: Mm.
Seth: If it's surrounded by a wall of fire, how do you get in? How do you get through the fire?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, anybody-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... nobody can get in until they get, go through the fire.
David: Right.
Seth: And Joshua the high priest is there-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a l- giving you access through it.
David: I see.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: That does make sense. This reminds me of Leviticus, where the high priest, the first thing that had to happen in the rollout of the temple sacrifi- sacrifices-
Seth: Mm
David: ... was that you had to first cleanse the high priest.
Seth: Mm.
David: The high priest was-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the first one to go through all the things necessary to get ritually clean, and it included putting on new clothes and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... new turbans and new all these things.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And then he could be the representative for the people.
Seth: Mm.
David: It seems like God's doing that again now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But without all the old steps that used to be in place. There's a progression there happening-
Seth: Mm
David: ... where God's like, uh, and maybe he used the temple system-
Seth: Right
David: ... to do that for, for Joshua too, but it's like, "Okay, we're gonna redo Leviticus here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: New high priest."
Seth: Mm.
David: "We gotta get you situated before we can get everybody else situated."
Seth: Which would make total sense-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if, like, if this is the new Israel, the new kingdom of God after exile, let's-
David: Yeah, here's your new high priest
Seth: ... let's restart the temple system. Let's restart the high priest, and it's Joshua.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His name is Joshua.
David: Okay.
Seth: And I mean, fun story, Joshua is the Hebrew name for Jesus.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Like [laughs] Yeshua. Like, uh-
David: Yeshua.
Seth: Yeah. Um-
David: So Jesus is the high priest.
Seth: So Jesus is the high priest of-
David: [laughs] Who-
Seth: ... a new kingdom of God who forgives our sins
David: ... who forgives our sins. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Okay, and we're s- and we just said that, and we're still in Zechariah.
Seth: Yeah, we're still in Zechariah.
David: That is, that's pretty cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is all true just of Zechariah.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Okay, anyway. [laughs] Names are fun.
Seth: [laughs] Yes, so yeah, sure. Hilarious. Um, [laughs] Ze-
David: Joshua, Jesus. It's, it's-
Seth: Joshua, Jesus. It's amazing.
David: It's great.
Seth: Um, but to set us up for the bottom, the second part or the bottom of the V-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... we're told explicitly in verse 8 that Joshua is a sign. He's a sign to the people-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that this will come true, and here's what it says. "Hear now, O Joshua, the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Behold, I will bring my servant the branch."
David: Mm.
Seth: And what's interesting about this is the branch is an Old Testament way to talk about a Davidic king.
David: Oh, right. I remember, like, the shoot of Jesse-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, coming out of a s- a chopped down stump.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the branch is this development on that idea of a shoot that-
David: Right
Seth: ... the fact that there is now a, a place for God's presence to dwell in, a priest who can purify its people, a way to gain access to that city, what's the thing that's missing?
David: The king.
Seth: The king is missing.
David: Right.
Seth: There will be a branch.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There will be someone from the line of David.
David: Right, and that can be a weird metaphor for people, I think.
Seth: Uh, yeah. [laughs]
David: But, uh, in the biblical imagination, I'm even thinking about our time in Daniel, is, like, the kingdom was represented as a tree.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's normal to think about kings as a tree in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in that, in that imagination, and the tree of Israel was chopped down. All that was left was a stump. And so the prophets back in the day would say, like, "Yes, Israel's nothing but a stump now, but there will be this branch-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that grows out of it."
Seth: Mm.
David: And it's like, oh, the tree's not dead.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's gonna keep growing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that branch, which was called, like, the shoot of Jesse, which the branch out of Jesse was David-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who was the first king, that is now growing. So it's like, it sounds weird, but-For, for, in their imagination it was, it was common parlance for-
Seth: And it, it-
David: David's king is coming.
Seth: Right. So it's like just, just Zechariah is really... Just imagine you don't want to rebuild.
David: The temple?
Seth: The t- the temple, and then you hear all these things back to back.
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: Do you see? Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this is a really motivating-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... speech. Like, all of the hopes of the people of God are coming true.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then think about if there is an argument about who's the true remnant, those that came back, those that stayed, those that came from Samaria, and it's like, no, it's all-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who return-
David: Right
Seth: ... truly.
David: That, what, yeah.
Seth: And they're like, "Well, maybe all of us can work together-
David: Right
Seth: ... to get this thing done."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, like-
David: It reminds me [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... really stupidly, it reminds me of, uh, of the Star Wars.
Seth: As it should. [laughs]
David: As it should. Where, um, the Death Star is running behind on its building schedule, and the-
Seth: Is this a parody?
David: No, no, no. And it-
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's... But it's, like, a throwaway line. It's, like, this quick scene.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the, but the emperor's coming on a certain date, and so they're like, "We will have it finished by the time the emperor gets here so he can see that it's operational."
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's like, "The king is coming. Get the Death Star ready." [laughs]
Seth: Yes, get the Death Star.
David: It's like [laughs]
Seth: Get the kingdom of God ready. [laughs]
David: It's like the branch is coming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We gotta make sure the temple's ready. [laughs]
Seth: Right. Yes.
David: I don't know why it made me think of that.
Seth: [laughs] I, I don't know-
David: This is-
Seth: ... the reasons why your brain works
David: ... I'm just trying to connect with the common man. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] And so that sets us up for the next vision.
David: Okay. [gentle music] Okay, so here we are at the bottom of the V. The, the, sh- the branch is coming. The emperor is coming. [laughs]
Seth: The emperor is coming.
David: And, uh, is there, is there a parallel story now, a second one-
Seth: Yeah, there's a-
David: ... at the bottom of the V?
Seth: ... story about another leader.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it's another-
David: And now we're... No, wait, hold on a second. Now we're going back, now we're gonna go back up with-
Seth: Well, yeah
David: ... leader, purifying creation stories, and then horses again?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: You're, you're, you're, you're getting-
David: I'm just trying to make sure I'm on the right track
Seth: ... you're getting on the right track.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the next vision is odd because the-
David: Oh, good, this one's odd
Seth: ... odd- [laughs]
David: Yeah, great. I'm glad. They've all been so normal so far. [laughs]
Seth: Good.
David: It's good we finally have a weird one. [laughs]
Seth: Well, all of these have been dreams, and now the angel wakes him up to show him a vision.
David: Wait, wait, wait. [laughs] So-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... he was dreaming, and then he woke him up to give him another-
Seth: To give him a vision
David: ... a vision? It kinda sounds like Inception.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Dreams within dreams.
Seth: Yeah. Dreams within dreams.
David: But a vision, we've talked about this before I think.
Seth: It-
David: A, a dream is something that happens when you're s- like-
Seth: Asleep
David: ... asleep or in a state of unconsciousness or something.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then a vision is something you're awake for.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's, like, laid over your reality, like augmented reality.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so why do that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... angel? Uh, perhaps to give emphasis to this vision.
David: Oh.
Seth: So perhaps this is the most significant one.
David: This isn't some sleeping dream.
Seth: No.
David: This is gonna happen in your waking reality.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: But it's probably the weirdest of all of them.
David: Well, it's not the-
David: Visions-
Seth: ... it's not the clearest of any of them either. [laughs]
David: Visions are weird. One time, the first time I heard about visions being something that was, like, laid over our reality, someone was saying that they saw a floating esophagus in the air.
Seth: Oh, gosh.
David: And, like, just, like, dangling-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the air over somebody, and they asked them if they had, like, something wrong with their esophagus, and they had, like, esophageal cancer-
Seth: Oh my gosh
David: ... and they prayed for them. And I was like, "What?" [laughs]
Seth: That is insane.
David: So anyway. [laughs]
Seth: So this vision is a vision of a giant bowl-
David: Okay
Seth: ... filled with oil-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that is attached to a lamp.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Like, a- attached to, I should say, a candelabra.
David: Wait. So how is a bowl attached to a candelabra?
Seth: Just imagine, like, a bowl on a pedestal-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that's tilted forward a little bit, and oil's dripping out of it.
David: Oh.
Seth: And it's falling into a candelabra-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that is feeding seven different candles-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that are all oil-burning candles-
David: Okay
Seth: ... simultaneously. And that bowl, on either side of the bowl are two olive trees that have two pipes sticking out of it. And oil is running down the pipes into the bowl. So this is my drawing of it, Daniel. [laughs]
David: Oh. [laughs] Can you put that in the, in the, in the description?
Seth: [laughs] So yeah, so I don't know if that's clear to anybody listening.
David: What, what are those, um, what are those machi- a gold- a, a Rube Goldberg machine?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: That's what it makes me think of. I had to Google it. A, a Rube Goldberg machine. It's one of those things, like, at the beginning of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang where you, like, just, like, push a button and all these ridiculous chains of events happen in order to crack an egg.
Seth: Yeah, it's like-
David: It's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this is a, a, a, [laughs] a Rube Goldberg machine that goes from olive trees
Seth: to-
David: Olive bowl to- ... feeding the oil lamp.
Seth: And, and they're lit continuously.
David: And they're lit continuously.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's, okay.
Seth: I-
David: Actually, that's actually a really cool picture
Seth: ... so that's, that's the vision.
David: Are we gonna do, are we gonna make that for the introduction video?
Seth: Can we, can we please? [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then we're told the broadest level meaning of the vision-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that also helps us understand all of the visions we've already seen. This is what the angel says is an interpretive grid for us. He said, "This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel"
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: So a new character.
David: Right.
Seth: But he-
David: He was a, he was a descendant of David, you said earlier.
Seth: He is a descendant of-
David: Yep
Seth: ... David, and he will become the governor of, uh, Yehud-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of this, this province within Persia.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, it's a big deal. Like, he's a big leader.
David: He's a, he's a branch.
Seth: So I think he's the tree-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... or these two trees that we're talking about here, at least one of them.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Um, and he says this. "This is the point of the vision, Zerubbabel. It's not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit," says the Lord of Hosts.
David: Hmm.
Seth: How will God's kingdom come? Not by might-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... not by warfare, but by My Spirit.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's the biggest level picture of what's happening in what we've seen so far. Does that make sense?
David: No.
Seth: Why?
David: I don't know how that translates to the tree and the bowl and the-
Seth: Yes
David: ... light.
Seth: So that's-
David: It makes sense that it's-
Seth: That-
David: ... not by war, but by the spirit.
Seth: Well, you know why it's good that it doesn't make sense?
David: Why?
Seth: Is because Zechariah, what do you mean by that? [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: He literally asked three different times what this dream means.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So you're like, "Wait a second, how does that mean anything?"
David: Thank you.
Seth: Zechariah had the same question. [laughs]
David: Thanks, Zach. Appreciate it. I feel seen right now.
Seth: Yes.
David: So what, so does, is there an answer to the question of what does it mean-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... or is he just left hanging like Daniel? [laughs]
Seth: Well, this is where, uh, we get the line that I've quoted already.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, let me just read it to you. Chapter 4, Verse 8. Uh, "Then the word Lord came to me," Zechariah, "saying, 'The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of the temple. His hands will also complete it.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: So Zerubbabel is the hope that w- is tied to all these things that we're talking about. He is, in a sense, the branch you're hoping for that will bring about the wall of fire around Jerusalem-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where God's presence will dwell, and the people will flock to it, and temple craftsmen will scare away the enemies. Like, Zerubbabel is the guy. "And whoever has despised the day of small things shall rejoice, and they will see the plumb line," or the measuring line, "in the hand of Zerubbabel." So a couple of interconnected facts here-
David: Okay
Seth: ... uh, that the dreams are hard to follow, but they are all connected together. The person who was measuring last was the person surveying the perimeter of Jerusalem-
David: Right
Seth: ... and measuring it.
David: Yep.
Seth: So Zerubbabel has built the foundation of the temple, and he is setting the perimeter, the boundaries, the borders-
David: Oh
Seth: ... of the Kingdom of God.
David: Right.
Seth: Right.
David: And then God's gonna come dwell in the middle of it.
Seth: And he's gonna do-
David: That makes sense
Seth: ... gonna do it. And we're kinda playing into the future a little bit, but, like, isn't this all really disappointing? Like, once the temple's finally built-
David: Right, the day of small things.
Seth: It's a day of small things, right? He's like, "No, no. Those who think it's a day of small things will rejoice-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because of what it means coming in the future-
David: Okay
Seth: ... is, I think, the idea-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, that's happening there.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: So, so if Zerubbabel is the tree, or like you said, at least one of the trees of the olive trees that are creating the oil-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that are spilling out of the bowls, that are lighting the seven lamps-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... get me from Zerubbabel the tree, I get it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's, he's the source-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of what God's gonna do. Not through military might, but because he's gonna obey the spirit of God and do something, and that's gonna provide the fruit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that is gonna get squeezed out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and does what? What does it mean to light the lamp? Is that, like, the lamp of the temple?
Seth: So here's what I think was happening. So not by might, Zerubbabel-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but by my spirit. You are a tree that will produce oil that will light these lamps, but not by your power-
David: Right
Seth: ... but by my spirit. Really boots on the ground by rebuilding the temple, not by picking up swords.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... okay?
David: Get it.
Seth: That oil fills this giant bowl that feeds these seven candles. So we're told the seven candles in Verse 10 are the eyes of the Lord-
David: Oh, gosh
Seth: ... which range [laughs] through the whole earth. And then Zechariah says, "What are these two olive trees?" [laughs] And then had to get again.
David: Okay, good.
Seth: And what is-
David: At least he's asking the same questions I'm asking.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] And then he answers him a second time, and he says, "What are these branches again? What are these golden pipes? What is this oil coming out?" And they're like, "Do you not know what these are?" And I'm like, "No, God-
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: ... I don't know what these are."
David: This is hilarious.
Seth: Verse 13. [laughs]
Seth: And then the angel says, "These two are the anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth." So Zechariah, or sorry-
David: Zerubbabel
Seth: ... Zerubbabel, and I think perhaps the other tree is Zechariah-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as he teaches-
David: Could it be Joshua?
Seth: ... about God's c- God's... It could also be Joshua, the high priest-
David: Yeah, the high priest
Seth: ... who's also leading his people. But-
David: You've got the governor and the priest, the king and the priest.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: So either way-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but through their spirit-led leadership, they are feeding the nation of Israel with the necessary oil-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to be a light to the nations.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep, and I mean, and I mean, wasn't there a candelabra in the, in the temple?
Seth: There was a candelabra in the temple.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so, like, is it symbolic of the temple, where these two people will-
David: Be the thing that actually gets the candelabra and the temple back?
Seth: The candelabra in the temple was a symbol of God's never-ending presence.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes.
Seth: So the idea that God's never-ending presence is facilitated by these two is possible.
David: Yep.
Seth: But God's presence isn't dependent upon people.
David: Right. He didn't, he-
Seth: God-
David: He, I mean, he told David, "I don't need a house to live in."
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it could be odd to see the candelabra as a symbol of God's presence, but it is called the eyes of the Lord.
David: Right.
Seth: So maybe it is God's... It's confusing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, uh, one of two options.
David: Okay.
Seth: Their leadership-
David: Yes
Seth: ... will cause God's presence to live in the land.
David: Right.
Seth: Option one.
David: Yep, 'cause they built the temple, and then God kinda fills it.
Seth: Yes. Or the candelabra is the people of God. Uh, they are scattered throughout the earth.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: They are the eyes throughout the earth, and through their leadership-
David: Oh
Seth: ... the true people of God will be gathered back in and be the light of the world.
David: Mm.
Seth: And as people see what God's covenant kingdom looks like, people from all over the world will come through the, the wall of fire and join the people of God.
David: That's interesting. I think the f- it is interesting, one, that we just had an image of the wall of fire.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then what happens on a candelabra, fire.
Seth: Fire, yes.
David: So these are-
Seth: That's right
David: ... connected ideas.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then it's also interesting, I think it's easy for me to forget the main purpose of a candelabra-
Seth: Is-
David: ... back in the day, was to see.
Seth: To see, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: Because we just don't use fire to see-
Seth: Right
David: ... now. We have snap-on electric lights, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and so when he says it's the eyes of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it makes more sense.
Seth: Right.
David: That's like-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... wait, flames are eyes? No, flames help you see.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so this will illuminate the world, you know, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... give you the vision of God or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... something like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think that one of those two things-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... is happening.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, but what's important here is now we're back up to V. So we have these two leaders-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... who are gonna reconstitute the people of God in Jerusalem and make them.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Protect them.
David: They're the two olive trees that are squishing out oil to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... get the people of God on fire.
Seth: But what's interesting is that in this next set of visions, all of them have some element of purifying to them.In Zechariah 13:8, Zechariah quotes God as saying that he'll wipe out two-thirds of the people, as in the exile that has already come about, but he will restore one-third, and then he will purify that one-third of his people into the true people of God who return. So the idea is you have all these people returning to Israel under the leadership of Zerubbabel and Zechariah and Joshua. But how do we know who are the true people of God? They must be purified, that's how you know. And so the first vision in this scene is of a scroll, uh, that has measurements on it.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: So the last time we... [laughs] So, like, it's huge.
David: [laughs] I'm picturing a IKEA, uh, tape.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: It's like a little... Like I'll roll it up and put it in my pocket.
Seth: Yep.
David: And you unroll it and it's a measuring tape.
Seth: But, like, the last time we had a measurement was the city was measured.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And then we have a person who, Zerubbabel-
David: Right
Seth: ... who measures.
David: Oh yeah, that matches across the V.
Seth: Yep.
David: Okay.
Seth: And now we have a scroll that is measured.
David: Am I supposed to be thinking of, like, the Torah or the law?
Seth: I think you are.
David: Okay.
Seth: And on either side of the scroll, there's writing, and one is a condemnation of thieves and one is a condemnation of liars. And as it goes out, it banishes all liars-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and all thieves.
David: It's like the firewall.
Seth: It's like the firewall in the Garden of Eden. What happened to Adam and Eve? They broke the Torah.
David: Yeah. They didn't measure up.
Seth: They didn't measure up, and they were sent out of the wall of fire.
David: Interesting.
Seth: Okay.
David: So it's doing the same thing.
Seth: So it's doing the same thing.
David: I get that.
Seth: And, and then we have a woman, a vision of a woman in a basket.
David: Wait.
Seth: So-
David: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait
Seth: ... there's a little five-gallon bucket. [laughs]
David: [laughs] I'm getting, I think I'm getting to the point where I can't hold all these images in my head anymore.
Seth: [laughs]
David: That one broke me. [laughs]
Seth: The, uh, there's a woman in a basket. Uh, here's what'll connect it for you.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we have a measured piece of paper representing God's law.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the people that don't measure up are banished outside the wall of fire.
David: I'm with you.
Seth: And then we're introduced to a basket of measurement. It was a five-gallon basket-
David: Oh
Seth: ... that measured grain-
David: Okay
Seth: ... called an ephah.
David: So I've got like a, I've got like a four-cup measuring cup at home.
Seth: Yep.
David: It's just a really big one.
Seth: Five gallons.
David: Five gallons, and-
Seth: And there's a woman inside of it. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Okay, hold on. Let me... One step at a time for me here.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So I've got a five-gallon thing that people might use to measure an ephah of, like, flour.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like here's... Okay, there's, that's, that's five gallons of flour.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There you go.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That costs that much.
Seth: Yep.
David: But inside this five-gallon jar or basket, instead of it being, like, flour or grain-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... there's a female.
Seth: There's a woman.
David: A-
Seth: A very small female or a very large woman-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... squished down very small.
David: Okay, what's she doing in there?
Seth: Her name is Wickedness.
David: Oh, what? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] An angel tells Zechariah her name is Wickedness, and then he places another unit of measurement, a talent-
David: Okay
Seth: ... uh, may-
David: Which is a weight
Seth: ... a lead weight weighing a talent.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he places it on top of the basket with the woman inside.
David: Like a lid?
Seth: Like a lid. And then two more women show up with the wings of a stork.
David: Okay.
Seth: And they pick up the basket, and they carry it to the land of Shinar so that a house can be built for it.
David: Wait, so the house can be built for the woman?
Seth: For the, for Wickedness.
David: For Wickedness in the, in the basket.
Seth: Yes.
David: With the talent lid.
Seth: Yeah. D- you get it, right?
David: I, I'm so lost. [laughs]
Seth: Okay. So we are talking... [sighs]
David: The only thing I can think of is, is the main point get Wickedness out of the land?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: I mean-
David: I think I, I get that point
Seth: ... the, purifying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're purifying-
David: Take the land
Seth: ... the wickedness out of the land.
David: Yeah. That, that part makes sense.
Seth: Yep.
David: But-
Seth: On the most basic level, that's what's happening
David: ... okay, I'm picking up the, the meaning.
Seth: Yes.
David: But-
Seth: The visuals get in the way
David: ... the visual, like, yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: It's like-
Seth: Okay, like you've got a measurement.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So let me just try.
David: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Seth: So you've got a measurement. Like you've got to measure up to this thing, but you put Wickedness in it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And is she measuring up to Wickedness? Like that's the thing, like what's the standard? How about this: Your measurements are wicked.
David: Oh, that's helpful.
Seth: The way that you do trade-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... advantages the rich-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and oppresses the poor.
David: That's helpful.
Seth: And I'm gonna send away all your abusive trading practices to their own land.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: In the land of Shinar, which is actually the same place the Tower of Babel was built.
David: Oh.
Seth: So I'm gonna go and make, I'm gonna send all this wickedness, all this false trading, all this evil, and I'm gonna make it its own temple in a place far away, and that place is called Babel, which will later be called Babylon.
David: Yeah. Okay, that, that helps a lot. Uh, can I ask one more question, though?
Seth: Yes.
David: What are the stork wings doing?
Seth: Two options.
David: Okay, good. [laughs]
Seth: Um, one-
David: I was hoping you'd be like, "I don't know." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] One, they're just angelic, dream-like figures.
David: Mm-hmm, and they need to beat, like, really hard and fast-
Seth: Yeah, and they-
David: ... to get, get out of there
Seth: ... get the bucket of a woman to the land of [laughs]
David: [laughs] Of a woman.
Seth: To the land of Shinar. Um, other people think that stork wings are an unclean bird.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So the idea that the wickedness is taken out of Israel and into Babylon could be a symbol of the Assyrian army or the Babylonian army that came in, like a wicked force actually has come and taken away the wickedness of Israel-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and brought it to its own place of wickedness.
David: Oh, so that's like, it might be describing something that happened.
Seth: Yes. Um, or could happen again.
David: Or could happen again.
Seth: Yes.
David: But it did happen.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The unclean animal-
Seth: Yep
David: ... of Babylon took out the wicked measurements-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, and wicked people of Israel to leave the land clean.
Seth: Yep.
David: But it needs to happen again.
Seth: Yeah, in the same way that God purified the land before, he will purify the land again.
David: All right. That actually makes a lot of sense.
Seth: Yeah. Right?
David: Okay. W- yeah.
Seth: I was surprised by how much these dreams made sense-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... after I started studying them just a little bit. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Actually, a lot. It took me a while-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... to, to get this far. But I do think it's fascinating that these unfair trading practices are highlighted here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Especially when we get to the Jesus term, or we start talking about Jesus, and one of the things that when God's kingdom comes to the temple is to critique the trading practices of the Pharisees. Stop.Okay, I'll stop.
David: Okay. No, I don't, no, I didn't mean to-
Seth: [laughs]
David: That was like a sarcastic stop.
Seth: It was.
David: But, okay.
Seth: But, so yeah. Okay.
David: That's very cool.
Seth: Um, and then the final vision.
David: Okay.
Seth: The top of the V.
David: We've made it back out.
Seth: We've made it back out.
David: Wait, so does that mean we're gonna see the horses again? [laughs]
Seth: The horses are back.
David: Is it the CIA horses again, or are they different horses?
Seth: They are somewhat different horses.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Um-
David: A horse of a different color
Seth: ... s- horses of different colors, but they come from between two bronze mountains.
David: Two bronze mountains. Okay. Is it, is it the two mountains in Israel?
Seth: Um, it could be the covenant mountains.
David: Right.
Seth: We have a lot of covenant-
David: What were those, like, Tab-
Seth: Uh, Gerizim.
David: Gerizim and-
Seth: No, no
David: ... Tab-
Seth: Ebal and Gerizim.
David: Ebal and Gerizim. Yeah, I think that's right.
Seth: It could be those.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, we have covenant-type language already here, so it could be that. It could be, um, an escalation of the two bronze pillars that were in Solomon's temple. Next to the altar, there was two giant bronze pillars. One was named Jachin and one was named Boaz.
David: Oh.
Seth: And they surrounded God's presence.
David: Oh.
Seth: So now we have four horses coming from God's presence.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Um-
David: That's kinda cool
Seth: ... and this time they're not horses-
David: Wait
Seth: ... just horses.
David: Oh, okay. I was like-
Seth: They are horse-
David: ... "You told me I was gonna have horses."
Seth: They are horses with chariots attached to them.
David: Oh.
Seth: So they're instruments of warfare. And so the idea, I think, here is now that God's p- people have been given a city behind a wall of fire, now that they have leaders who are able to lead them well, who are being purified, okay, everything's set up for God's people to rule the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And how will they do it? How will the nations finally be conquered? By their military power? No.
David: Oh.
Seth: By the riders of God.
David: Okay.
Seth: God's power will go out and wipe out the enemies of the world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and finally provide peace for Israel.
David: Oh, because they're going-
Seth: Those who-
David: ... out from the two mountains.
Seth: That's right.
David: I see. They're going-
Seth: Out
David: ... out of Israel.
Seth: Out of the temple, out of this-
David: I see
Seth: ... escalated temple-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... into-
David: To conquer the-
Seth: To conquer the evil in the r- the wickedness that now lies out in the world.
David: Okay. That makes sense somehow.
Seth: And-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and that, there is a bonus vision, which we could talk about-
David: Wait
Seth: ... but it really just, it emphasizes the point of Joshua's leadership-
David: Okay
Seth: ... not just as a priest, but also as a king. And so those ideas of a branch, a leader, and a king, and a priest all come together-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in a final vision. But that is functionally the first part of the book of Zechariah. [gentle music]
David: So we've gone through the vision V.
Seth: Yeah.
David: V is for vision.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs] And we've gone through it. We've seen Zechariah's, um, like, dream-inspired speech to the people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to catalyze them to rebuild the temple so that God's presence can come back, can purify themselves and the nations around them, and lead a, a campaign around the world to save Israel and all nations through God's new olive oil-washed Messiah. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: That's it. [laughs]
David: That's pretty cool. Okay. So I think we're gonna... Where, where are we, then, in the-
Seth: We are a little under halfway through the book.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, but this is a major sequence of the book-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and really has all the themes that we'll continue to talk about-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in the last chapters.
David: So this is a good place to stop-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... and be like, where's the gospel?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, how do we see Jesus in the first half of the book of Zechariah?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, we have a lot set up.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So how do you wanna, like, [laughs] start-
Seth: I mean-
David: ... to go through this?
Seth: ... the broadest way to do it, and I hinted at it in the final capstone vision, is another vision of Joshua.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: But he's given a crown, so he's also the king.
David: Oh.
Seth: So he's a priest and a king, and he's also described as the branch, who was Zerubbabel back in the visions four and five.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So you have a, a melding of the two figures. There used to be two figures.
David: Right.
Seth: Now there's one figure at the end of the visions.
David: It's interesting, that's also, like, kinda hinted at in the olive trees-
Seth: Yep
David: ... 'cause their oil's going to one place.
Seth: Mm-hmm, that's true.
David: So if you didn't have a priest and a king on each side as the, as the olive trees-
Seth: Right
David: ... their oil's going to the same little basin that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... lighting the world.
Seth: Yeah, and the last half of the book of Zechariah is primarily talking about the failure of bad leaders and the necessity of a godly king.
David: Mm.
Seth: I think maybe one of the biggest level way to think about the gospel in the book of Zechariah is that if you return to God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if you really return, not just physically return to a space-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but return to the values of the kingdom, God has prepared a leader who will create the people of God through God's Spirit and who will purify that people so that the world is theirs to inherit.
David: Mm.
Seth: Is that, like... There, there's a lot on the line there. There's a lot of little moving parts there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that's the biggest vision of-
David: Okay
Seth: ... what's happening in Zechariah.
David: So spell that out for me, then, how Jesus answers-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that promise of Zechariah.
Seth: Jesus opens his ministry in the Book of Mark the same way that Zechariah opens his book, book. "Repent."
David: Oh, return.
Seth: "The kingdom of God is at hand. Re- return, the kingdom of God is at hand."
David: Ah, yes. Yeah, if you return-
Seth: The king-
David: ... God's coming.
Seth: The k- [laughs] God's coming.
David: Oh, that's interesting.
Seth: And I will make a new people of the poor and those that have been taken advantage of. I will... The, the meek will inherit the earth.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I will reconstitute God's people. I will protect this people. I will be to them a priest who goes to the temple and washes their sins away. I will be like a king who comes in and rules on their behalf, which-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the most famous prophecy in Zechariah is in the back half, where a king comes riding humble on a donkey into Jerusalem.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus is this king who does this for his people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then once God's people have been purified by this king/priest, all their enemies are destroyed by God's hand and not theirs.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that's the kingdom of God, you know?
David: Yeah. Okay. So help me with this, then. There's this promise that if you rebuild the temple, the Messiah, the branch, will come as this... king/priest, and he'll do all these things you just said.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But when Jesus comes, he breaks down the temple, [laughs] condemns it, says he's-
Seth: Right
David: ... gonna replace it. It's like, "Just kidding." Like-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... you built a temple, but actually nevermind.
Seth: Yeah. This gets to s- some of the points in the later part of the book where it's the leaders of God's people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are indicted for only leading their people to slaughter. The priests of God, the leaders of God are just subverting all the things that God has given them to take advantage of the people rather than to provide for them, even subverting the uses of things like the temple or the... Israel itself is used to benefit the rich at the expense of the truly faithful.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so when Jesus comes, he says, "Okay. I said I was gonna build a temple in which God's kingdom would come, and I am. It's just not gonna be the one that you keep using for your own purposes."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I'm gonna rebuild the temple in my body, one that you can't take advantage of anymore-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because it's gonna rise from the dead, unable to be taken over by the likes of you. I will be the true leader-
David: Mm
Seth: ... forever. Never you again."
David: It is interesting that, you know, if the two olive trees that would end up rebuilding the temple, you know, were-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Zerubbabel and Joshua-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the priest and the king, and then you have Jesus as the priest king, right? He's the one who would rebuild the temple, but he is that temple himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like e- everything's being conflated-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and stacked into one metaphor.
Seth: Right. And it kinda helps because, like, the dreams, how do the dreams all talk to each other? And they're kinda confusing, and we kept getting-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a little bit of gridlock and like, well, how does this one, and what place in chronology did that one, the woman-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the basket happen, beforehand or after?
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, well, that's part of the nature of visions, but it's also kind of the nature of Jesus as Messiah.
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause, like, the historical hopes that have been the people of God's hope since the Garden of Eden are condensed in one man's 33-year lifespan, you know? [laughs]
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: Like, there's a sense in which, like, it, you can't help but tell the story in a chronological way that ultimately breaks-
David: Right
Seth: ... because they're all fulfilled in Jesus.
David: Yeah. That's amazing. So, so Jesus comes as, as the priest king, and yet he doesn't, he doesn't rule from Jerusalem like people thought. He doesn't-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... live in the temple. Instead, he said it was gonna be destroyed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, so, like, get me there, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, uh, we, we had this picture in Zechariah of this localized kingdom that was a blessing to the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And in the Kingdom of Jesus, you have a decentralized kingdom.
Seth: Yeah. Well, isn't that interesting? Go back to chapter two, where it talks about-
David: Okay
Seth: ... the borders cover, or covered by fire.
David: Okay.
Seth: "So this man goes about to measure Jerusalem to see it, what its width and what its length was. And then, behold, an angel who talked with me came forward, and then another angel came forward to meet him and said, 'Run. Say to that young man, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as vi- villages without walls because of the multitude of people and livestock in it.'
David: Mm.
Seth: "And I will be to her a wall of fire all around her." So what's interesting, you have a measuring line that's measuring the borders of a kingdom that never does its job.
David: Oh, it's measureless.
Seth: We've never been told the diameter, the length, the breadth of the Kingdom of God.
David: Right.
Seth: And the only thing we're told is that there are no walls except the presence of God that protects them.
David: Mm.
Seth: So what's the limit of the Kingdom of God? What's the limit of God's power?
David: Mm.
Seth: What's the limit of his protective fire? What was the true limit of Eden? The whole world.
David: Right.
Seth: Eden was supposed to spread throughout the entire world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And even the localized sense of, like, the Kingdom of God starts in a place-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and people find asylum, run towards it, and flock to it, find asylum there, but then it grows, that is the story of the gospel.
David: Mm.
Seth: The story of the gospel started in Jerusalem-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... with the day of Pentecost.
David: Right.
Seth: 3,000 people were there. They came from all over the world, gathered in that one place, found asylum under the fire of the Holy Spirit.
David: Not out in Babylon.
Seth: Not out in Babylon. And-
David: Tower of Babel was reversed, Shinar
Seth: ... and then they were sent back out to do what? To expand the borders of the Kingdom of God again.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and so we're what-
David: To be the candelabra.
Seth: To be the candelabra. And so what is the measuring line? It's wherever the people of God are.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's so big you can't measure it anymore.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know?
David: That's so good. So what... Now I'm, I'm just thinking, like, the, the hope, the expectation for the people in Zechariah were, were twofold. Like, one was they wanted God to return to them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And two is they wanted a king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How are those two things fulfilled for us in Jesus?
Seth: Well, to answer the second part of your question about-
David: Uh
Seth: ... a king-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I say we save that question for next week-
David: Ooh, teaser
Seth: ... because Zechariah 9 is about the king who's humble riding on a donkey-
David: Okay
Seth: ... humble and having salvation is he. So, like, let's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... save the conversation about a king for next time-
David: Okay
Seth: ... 'cause we didn't get there.
David: Fair.
Seth: But the first one was what's the good news of a God who returns?
David: Yeah, 'cause we opened it saying, like, "Return to God, and he'll return to you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What does that have to say to us today, I think?
Seth: I mean, one of Jesus' names is God with us.
David: Emmanuel.
Seth: Emmanuel. As we repent, like, Jesus comes to us, returns to Earth.
David: Mm.
Seth: God returns to Earth before we even repent. And then once we repent, he returns to our hearts, to where he's always wanted to reside. He, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is with us in a more intimate sense than he ever was with even Adam and Eve, you know?
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: Like, he lives inside of us, and that makes a little bit more sense of these global and universal ways that the Kingdom of God now expands. It's not geographically located anymore. It's impossible because the Kingdom of God, God's presence is in all those who have returned to him-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you know?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Returned to their true home in him, and he returns to his true home inside of us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he lives with his people forever.
David: Yeah. I also just can't help but think about James.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like you have all those things happening here.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, draw near to God. Like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... come to the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, put your hand to the work-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... and God will meet you there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But also-Part of that was disobedience or what, what was the girl's name that was in the, in the basket?
Seth: Wickedness.
David: Wickedness.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: In the basket gets carted off-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when you resist her.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like all that's happening. It was just fun-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... kinda having new mental imagery for a very familiar text.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like now I have a different paradigm-
Seth: Right
David: ... to view that. I, I don't know. I feel like I have Zechariah in my head.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like I've never had it. And I've read it several times.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But having that V and, you know, the journey through the visions all connected in a story really helped. Um, and I think it just adds so much more color to the day of small things and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... why, why when Jesus came as the final temple, and the final king, and the final priest, and the final home-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, why all of that was just the latent hope of the people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who came home from exile waiting for the Messiah.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is, like, they-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it was found in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I think it just provides a ton of clarity for me.
Seth: And I think part of the complexity of all Biblical prophecy is that it all happens in Jesus, and it's waiting to be happened in Jesus again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the Book of Zechariah has happened in Jesus-
David: Right
Seth: ... but the te- the Kingdom of God hasn't fully come.
David: Right.
Seth: So we're still kind of in the day of small things, right?
David: Ooh, yeah.
Seth: So the Jesus' death and resurrection, man, great day.
David: Right.
Seth: Actually, a day of small things.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's gonna recreate the world.
David: Wow.
Seth: So don't despise the day of small things.
David: Right.
Seth: And don't despise your role in being part of the growing Kingdom of God as it exists right now.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, we're all doing stuff that seems insignificant, but is actually m- moving
Seth: the Kingdom of God forward.
David: Yeah. It is crazy, um, encouraging to think about the Kingdom of God's not gonna advance by warfare, and strength, and all these things, but by temple craftsmen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, man, whatever God's put your hand to, to do in faithfulness and obedience, as the New Testament say, "Work at it with all your heart as if working for God and not for men."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, because why? 'Cause God accomplishes His plans and draws near to people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... just through the labor of your hands-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... through faithful, obedient labor.
Seth: Through thousands of bricks.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's how God's kingdom is built?
David: It's cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, all right. Okay, so we'll finish Zechariah next time-
Seth: I, I hope
David: ... with the... [laughs]
Seth: I hope. [laughs]
David: Unless the day of big things comes.
Seth: [laughs] Un- unless the day of big things comes, then we'll...
David: So we'll do Jesus riding into town on a donkey.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That'll be exciting. Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us, and we'll see you next week. [upbeat instrumental music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat instrumental music]