David: So, thorn in the flesh.
Seth: Yes.
David: Is this just an imagery? Is this just a picture? Is it just a metaphor?
Seth: I mean, if I was just to read verse, this verse, a th- whatever the thorn in the flesh is, it's a, it's a messenger of Satan.
David: Yes.
Seth: But that's... Those are the- so that's what I know.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it is-
David: Okay
Seth: -something sent by Satan.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay, here we go. So we're, w- we've got everything we need-
Seth: Yeah. Okay
David: ... to do the easy work now of what's the thorn?
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for taking some time to be with us today. We're wrapping up our little three-part series on 2 Corinthians.
Seth: Curiosities in Corinthians.
David: The, the curiosities of the corrupt Corinthians. The crazy Corinthians.
Seth: The crazy Corinthians.
David: Uh, yeah. We, so far in the first episode, we looked at the passage about being unequally yoked-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and realized that that was not about marriage.
Seth: But?
David: But it's kind of about marriage.
Seth: Yep.
David: We looked at, uh, in the last episode, uh, 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, and we talked about generosity.
Seth: Yep.
David: And we learned that money-
Seth: Is seeds
David: ... is seeds, not fruit.
Seth: Yeah, which is great.
David: It's, it's a good one.
Seth: It was a good one for me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Coffee-
David: Coffee-
Seth: ... is also seeds.
David: Coffee is seeds. Seeds is money. Money is pizza. Okay. Uh, so yeah. And today, apparently, we're gonna keep talking about 2 Corinthians. Uh, and we're gonna talk about, uh, maybe the, one of the most famous-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, like, I, I feel like everyone... I feel like it's turned into, like, a colloquialism outside of Christian circles.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, you have a thorn in the flesh.
David: The thorn in your flesh.
Seth: Yeah, he was a thorn in my side.
David: Oh, he's a thorn in my side.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, that's a biblical term.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, and so I think that's interesting. We're also gonna look at Paul's visit to the third heavens, which has-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uh, fascinated Bible readers for a very long time.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, he talks about messengers of Satan. What are those? That'll be fun, maybe.
Seth: I'm so excited.
David: So-
Seth: Angels of Satan, let's bring it on.
David: Yeah, so you've done, you've done good already.
Seth: Oh, okay.
David: I like it. I like where you're at. Okay, well, so we're in the kind of wrapping up of 2 Corinthians.
Seth: Paul is still on his, like, long, like, defense of his own apostolic ministry against the claims of the super apostles-
David: That's right
Seth: ... or the so-called super apostles.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: And it's here that that really comes to a head.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause so far, it's been kind of implicit-
Seth: Okay
David: ... his challenges against the super apostles, 'cause everything's been, like, under his breath in a sense, where he's like, "Hey, I'm suffering, and I'm boasting in my suffering. You know who's not? The super apostles."
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: And everything's, like, kind of offhanded about them, but here in this last part, they're actually named.
Seth: He actually calls them fake-
David: He calls them out
Seth: ... false prophets.
David: "These," quote, unquote, "super apostles."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then he goes on his most, mm, active, uh, boasting competition with them because the super apostles were these-
Seth: That's kind of their MO, so-
David: That's their MO.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They-
David: They love to boast.
Seth: They love to boast. They're coming in with their letters of recommendation. They're the guys who have it all together, and that's kinda how they make their play-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to the Corinthians, right? Like-
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's how they hold power. It's how they are trying to discredit Paul, is by boasting everything they do well and trashing on everything that it looks like Paul does poorly.
Seth: And so Paul is gonna try to play at their own game for a second.
David: Y- yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so a- and it's really funny the way he does it. He kinda starts... Uh, he starts kinda earlier, but we're gonna look at 11:1 here, and he says this: "I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Oh, do bear with me!"
Seth: I just think it's so funny.
David: "Oh, do bear with me."
Seth: Do bear with me, my friends.
David: I just had to read it in that voice-
Seth: Yeah.
David: ... 'cause I think that communicates-
Seth: The sarcasm
David: ... the sarcasm. "For I feel a divine jealousy for you." So he kinda, uh, he, he, he's, he's about to set up the boasting, but then he caveats-
Seth: Okay
David: ... why he's gonna descend into the depths of comparison with these super apostles, and the reason he gives them is, "For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." So that's his goal.
Seth: Okay.
David: He's like, "I'm like a father-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in this situation, who has this daughter-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this church in Corinth, and I-
Seth: Walking down the aisle
David: ... and I've, and I've, I, she's betrothed to Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... alone, and it's my job as her dad to keep her pure until her m- her wedding day. And so I'm gonna protect that daughter-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... from anything that gets in to try to corrupt that daughter before her wedding day, so I can present her pure and blameless to her husband."
Seth: Okay.
David: He's like, "That's my job."
Seth: That's my job.
David: That's why I'm so worked up. Like, you could kinda empathize with him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with that metaphor.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. That's a good metaphor.
David: Yeah, and so he's like, "But look what's happened. I'm afraid that a s- that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."
Seth: There's some false teachers coming in-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... whispering things that are not what God has said.
David: Yeah, and he's putting a lot on the line with this comparison.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because you have this image of a h- a, a woman and her husband, and then you have the image of the serpent coming in.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, okay, we're in the garden.
Seth: We're in the Garden of Eden.
David: We're, we're squarely in the Garden of Eden, and you've got this woman who is supposed to follow God, be one with her husband, multiply, fill the earth-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and subdue it, and there's really good things that would come about if that would happen.
Seth: Yes.
David: And yet the snake comes in, deceives her-... and he's equivocating all of that negativity-
Seth: Yeah
David: -to these super apostles. Again, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we talked about this, I think, last episode or maybe two ago. He's just ratcheting up-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the- what's on the line with these false teachers.
Seth: It's so funny, 'cause Paul does this multiple times. He makes reference to this story in many of his letters-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when he's dealing with false teachers.
David: He does, yeah.
Seth: And so it's interesting to me that, like, the f- like, in Paul's imagination, like, the closest parallel to the fall of humanity is, like, the fall of churches-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the churches that he's planted.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, it's like the fall of the body of Christ in Corinth or in Ephesus, when they let false teachers in, it's like the fall in Genesis is happening all over again.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It seems to be a really serious thing to him.
David: That's actually a really good meditation, because I think we're meant to meditate on it that way, because that is a little Garden of Eden in the world, a church.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah. Awesome.
David: It's a little place-
Seth: Wow
David: ... where the bride of Christ is, and is supposed to be fruitful, and multiply, and take God's rule and reign across a chaotic wilderness, and bring life and peace to it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's what the church does-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is supposed to do. But as people turn her, like the serpent turned Eve, away from that mission, what happens? Death, uncreation-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... the wilderness gets spread instead.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's like, "What's on, what's on the line for our churches in their cities following Jesus?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "The creation or doom of the world."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he's-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... putting it on the line.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. The, the, the, the mission of God in the world-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is on the line when we entertain false teachers.
David: Mm. So interesting. So I do wanna just put a pin-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in the fact that he has now equivocated the false teachers with the serpent.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause that's-
Seth: Yes
David: ... gonna be important-
Seth: Okay
David: ... as we start to understand his larger argument here, and how it all culminates in kind of where we're going with the more controversial passages.
Seth: Okay, let's do it.
David: Okay, so verse four: "For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you received a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge. Indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things." So-
Seth: I remember back in chapter six, when he talks about not being unequally yoked-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with unbelievers. He says, "What accord does Christ have with Belial?" And for some reason, in my head, Belial is another name for Satan-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or, like, another name for an evil spiritual power.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: So, so this would be the second time-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that the false teachers in this letter-
David: That's right
Seth: ... are, are, have been compared to-
David: Yes
Seth: ... supernatural evil.
David: Yes. It's a sustained point he's making.
Seth: Okay.
David: And he's gonna make it a third time-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in, in this passage. So he, he, he continues kind of setting up this boasting that he's doing-
Seth: Okay
David: ... with the, with the super apostles, trying to show that he's the legitimate apostle that's trying to lead them to the garden, and to life, and to truth.
Seth: Yes.
David: And they're the snake, the Satan, trying to lead them away and to death and destruction, and so he's gonna continue to do that. Oh, he's gonna do it two more times, actually. Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, so verse 12: "And what I am doing, I will continue to do in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission, they work on the same terms as we do." So he's like, "Why am I doing all this? Why am I about to debase myself with boasting-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in me just to win your approval so that you follow me instead of them? I'm gonna do it, 'cause we're not on the same team."
Seth: Mm.
David: "Your souls are on the line, and I'm gonna keep boasting-
Seth: Yes
David: ... 'cause you are following the serpent." And he's gonna-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... he's gonna say as much. "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."
Seth: So Paul, now three times, has compared these false teachers to-
David: A satanic figure
Seth: ... a, a satanic figure. Yeah.
David: That's right. And what's interesting here, there's a lot happening-
Seth: Oh, is it also... Oh, sorry.
David: Yeah, go ahead.
Seth: I just, I just kept thinking, like, the... Well, that's how the Garden of Eden story continues, too.
David: Oh, good.
Seth: Because you have Eve, who, you know, eats, listens to the false teachers.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then you have, uh, the promise that the seed of the serpent, like, the children of the serpent-
David: Mm
Seth: ... will be at war with the children of God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and that God will eventually crush the head of the serpent-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and his children. So is that, oh, were you, is that where you were headed?
David: Unpack, okay, let's unpack that for a second.
Seth: Okay, okay.
David: 'Cause we're gonna set up all the right categories-
Seth: Okay
David: ... for what's coming.
Seth: Okay, great.
David: Okay, so the seed of the serpent, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: And the seed of the woman, and so the, the, the idea of Genesis, you know, in the Torah, is this idea that the, the children of Eve, the chosen line of God, you know, is traced through and found in Abraham, and, you know, continues on to, to Isaac and Jacob, who becomes Israel, and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the 12 children with Joseph-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and all of them.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: And they become the nation of Israel, that gets enslaved in Egypt, and then rescued to become the people of God and go into the Promised Land.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, well, what, what happened to everybody else? You know, in a sense, these are the seed of the serpent that's starting to spread.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you hear about all the evil cities that they build. They build Egypt-
Seth: Right
David: ... that produces Pharaoh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this very snake-like, serpent-like, evil, satanic figure-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who's oppressing, and killing, and bringing, bringing the wilderness instead of the garden, and all this. And so they go into the, the, the... The seed of Eve goes into the Promised Land-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and is meant to drive out the serpent-like nations-
Seth: That's right
David: ... the other nations-
Seth: Yep, yep
David: ... that are there, in order to create a new Garden of Eden that'll be the epicenter of God's creative activity in the world.
Seth: That's right. Okay.
David: Okay, so yeah, that, just pin.
Seth: Okay, great.
David: That's gonna be such a helpful pin.
Seth: Okay, great.
David: In just a few verses.
Seth: Okay, so good.
David: Okay, and it's gonna con- it's gonna clear up one of... what has been a very confusing passage that has led to so much speculation.
Seth: I'm so excited.
David: So I'm so glad-
Seth: Okay
David: ... you're doing that. I think the other interesting thing about this passage here, where he's like, "It's no surprise that-... the false apostles look like Satan, because they're following him. And that's been-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Paul's argument the entire time for himself. He's like, "Which apostle-
Seth: Mm
David: ... should you follow? The one who looks like Jesus."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "I've been suffering, and dying, and giving myself over for your behalf."
Seth: Right.
David: That's what Jesus did.
Seth: Yes.
David: Whereas these s- messengers of Satan, these, like, angels of light beings, are masquerading as true apostles.
Seth: They're, they're, they're disguising this, all these great things-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the same way that Satan disguises himself with light.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, people who boast about their accomplishments and the good things in their lives are more likely to be Satan than they are to be Jesus.
David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and they're, uh, they're being like the ones they follow.
Seth: They're being like the ones they follow. Okay.
David: Like, they prove whose apostle they are-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by what they actually look like.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's been his argument the whole time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now he unmasks-
Seth: Right
David: ... the super apostles-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to show who they are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So again, like you said, our third, the, the super apostles are the Satanic-
Seth: Okay
David: ... beings here.
Seth: Cool.
David: Okay, verse 16: "I repeat, let no one think me foolish, but even if you do, accept me as a fool, so that I, too, may boast a little." So here he goes again. He's like, "All right, I'll do the stupid thing you want me to do, 'cause you Corinthians, you just love boasting, and that's who you choose to follow based on who boasts the most."
Seth: This is what's apparently convincing to you.
David: "So I'll be the idiot who boasts, too. So what am I saying with, uh, this boastful confidence? I say not as the Lord would, but as a fool." He's like, "This is so stupid. Boasting is stupid!" "Since many boast according to the flesh, well, fine, I too will boast. For you gladly bear with fools," talking about the super apostles, "being wise yourselves. For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts heirs, or strikes you in the face. To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that."
Seth: I was too asleep to punch you in the face.
David: Yeah, I was... Yeah. So he's like, "Okay, you, you take it on the chin-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when someone comes, boasts in everything that they are, and then treats you like crap afterwards, and you're like, 'Yeah, but they're so good. It's totally worth it.'"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, what?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Paul says, "Man, I've come to you. I've poured myself out for you. I've not boasted. I, I, I didn't charge you for my time, and you disrespect me. And, like, you don't accept me as your leader."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "You, you want this strong-handed, boastful leader?" He's like, "I'm sorry, I'm too weak for that for you. I can't treat you like that."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I love you too much. I don't have enough in myself to boast in. I just can't do that to you."
Seth: Yeah. I, I was also reading it kind of like, uh, like another sarcastic jab.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: And he's like, "Oh, if only we were b- more, had more ... If only more grit, I would've hit you in the face."
David: Right.
Seth: "But I'm so sorry."
David: I'm just too weak.
Seth: I'm just too weak.
David: To ex- to extort you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. "Oh, the reason I'm not a mafia boss is that I'm just-
Seth: Uh
David: ... not violent enough." Like, it's just so ridiculous.
Seth: Yeah, it's really funny.
David: Um, okay, uh, finishing verse 21 here: "But whatever anyone else dares to boast of, I am speaking as a fool, I also dare to boast of that. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offsprings of Abraham? So am I." And then this one: "Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one. I'm talking like a madman."
David: Okay, so let's pause here-
Seth: Yes
David: ... before he gets into something.
Seth: Yes.
David: But he's like, "Okay, entertain me in this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... foolish, satirical boast."
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, look, we... Yeah, we're all Jews here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, you know, the, the super apostles-
Seth: That's what they keep claiming.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: The super apostles, "Hey, no, we're from Jerusalem. We're Jews."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Guys, so am I. Come on."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Like, that's not what's on the line here. What's on the line is, who's a servant of Christ?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I will boast in this: I'm the better one." Now, even though he says-
Seth: Yes
David: ... "This makes me sound crazy, I'm mad-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I would never say this in norman- normal circumstances-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but this is apparently what you wanna hear."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "You love hearing boastings."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "So I'll give you what you want."
Seth: Yes.
David: But here's what he boasts in. He's like, uh-
Seth: Uh
David: ... "With far greater labors, far more imprisonments, countless beatings, often near death. Five times I've received, at the hands of the Jews, the 40 lashes, less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. A night and a day, I was adrift at sea. On frequent journeys, in danger of rivers, danger of robbers, dangers of my own people, dangers from Gentile, danger from the city, danger in the wilderness, danger in sea, danger from false brothers- ... in toil and hardship, through many sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold, exposure. And apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak? And I am not weak. Who is made to fall? And I am not indignant. If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness." He's like, "I'll play the game."
Seth: I'll play the game.
David: "I have so much more to boast in than you, all this weakness."
Seth: "I'm, I'm the we- I'm the weakest-"
David: I'm the weakest.
Seth: "... I'm the most like Jesus."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I- I'm a servant of Christ."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "You wanna prove who's a servant of Christ? I'm suffering for him."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the game.
Seth: Okay. Okay.
David: And they're not gonna pl- the super apostles will not play that game.
Seth: Mm-mm.
David: Like, it's-
Seth: Well, and they just have-- they seem to have a different definition of what it means to follow Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, he's like-
David: And that's what's at, at issue, right?
Seth: Yeah, it's like, uh, "The way that you follow Jesus is joining him in his suffering-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which I have done, and I can boast about all the ways that I have joined Jesus in his sufferings." All the super apostles are doing is boasting in the ways that they have great success in their lives and ministries.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Like, that's not the way of Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and that's why I'm... That's why I can boast in these things and be confident that you should listen to me."
David: Yep.
Seth: "You should be confident that you can listen to me."
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's doing this to... It's the last-straw kind of thing for Paul here, as he's trying to get them to prepare for his visit. It's, it's the lowest place he stoops. Like, I think if he wrote his harsh letter to them last time-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that called them out on their sin, if he wrote that one with tears, I think he writes this one with, like, red cheeks.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's-
David: Like, he's embarrassed. Like-
Seth: He- oh, no, I thought when you said, "red cheeks," you meant angry.
David: Anger.
Seth: Yeah.
David: No, I think he's just like-... this is stupid!
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, I'm, I don't wanna boast about these things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I'm- you guys are making me sound crazy. Like, this is not-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how I like to defend my ministry.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause this is... I just wanna boast in the weakness of, I just wanna boast-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you guys are making me talk about myself. And if I have to talk about myself, I'll tell you that I was, I snuck out of a city to get away from a, an angry mob, and I s- and I did it in a basket, and that's what he says next.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: It is just like, uh, just shame and-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... and unpopularity, and-
Seth: I don't wanna... These are, these are not the things I would choose to talk about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but you're bringing me to this.
David: And the reason that he doesn't wanna talk about it goes back to the beginning of the letter. Like, the, his letter of recommendation to them, the thing that proves the authenticity of his apostleship to them, is not what he's done.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It has nothing to do with his activity among them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It has everything to do with their changed lives.
Seth: And he says that, "You are my letter of recommendation."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You yourself, Corinthians, are my letter of recommendation. Look at your lives. They're different. They've been changed. So I don't need any other proof or any other boast. Your lives are different because of Jesus. His power in you has been self-evident."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "So why do I need to boast in anything but weakness? 'Cause Jesus is powerful in you already." So that's kind of like why he's doing all this.
David: Okay, great.
Seth: This next one, we go into verse or chapter 12 here.
David: Yes.
Seth: This next one-
David: This is where we get to the thorn in the flesh stuff.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's a continuation of what we've just heard.
Seth: That's right. Yep.
David: He's, like, boasting and he's comparing himself to the claims of the super apostles and boasting in a way that you wouldn't expect somebody to, to, like, write their resume.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I got shipwrecked a bunch of times.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Are you bad at sailing?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not good at sailing.
David: Yes, I'm here to apply for your captain's position. I've been shipwrecked three times. Next?
Seth: Next, yeah.
David: Um, okay, yes, so he goes on boasting. That's what he says in chapter 12, verse 1, "I, I must go on boasting, though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord."
Seth: Okay.
David: So this is what they... This is what the Corinthians are all about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is this secret knowledge and, and spiritual wisdom.
Seth: This goes back to, like, the spiritual gifts, where they're all about the, the crazy one-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or the one that seems crazy, with people speaking in tongues or whatever.
David: Yeah, what does it seem mysterious-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, and, and, and, yeah, hyper-revolutionary-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and stuff. Anyway, and so they're, they're, they want some of that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's very Greek of them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, and they want that. And so they're like, "You know, Paul just never boasts in how many visions he's had," you know?
Seth: Yeah, right, right.
David: "Or it's like when he comes to us, he won't speak in tongues in public."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Right? Like, well-
Seth: He's like, he, he doesn't seem... He, his spirituality doesn't seem like the type of spirituality we should be following.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's like, "Okay, fine. If you want me to boast of my visions, I will." Now, I think a few things are interesting here. One, what he's about to boast in is huge.
Seth: Okay.
David: Two, he does it in such a way that he talks about himself in the third person.
Seth: Why does he do that?
David: I think it's just to continue the humility thing here.
Seth: Okay.
David: He's like, "I could, I could boast in this, but, like, let me just even distance it from myself even more."
Seth: Yeah, 'cause it, it's like, "I know a man in, in Christ who, 14 years ago, was caught up in the third..."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he's like, he's like, he talks about it in the third person, but it's like, it's a symbol of his humility.
David: I think so.
Seth: He, he doesn't even wanna talk about himself in the first person.
David: Even about the thing that he could boast the most in.
Seth: I guess... Yeah, and I guess, just to, like, get the, get the box out of my head, I'm like, uh, w- why can't he be talking about somebody else?
David: Mm.
Seth: You know, it's like, it's written in third person, and everything else, when he's talking about himself, is in the first person. Why is, why are we, like... Do we n- do we know that he, he's can't be talking about somebody else?
David: Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, if you... W- we'll, we'll talk about the vision itself-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... but, we, just to tick the box.
Seth: Yes.
David: If we go down to verse seven, it says this, after he explains this r- crazy moment-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that he had, or this person had.
Seth: Yes.
David: "So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations-
Seth: Okay
David: ... a thorn was given me in the flesh."
Seth: So-
David: Yeah.
Seth: So even though, it's like even though he's talking about the third person, it's clearly him-
David: It's clearly him
Seth: ... because he t- later, he says, "While I was having these visions, something else happened to me."
David: Yeah-
Seth: So
David: ... or, or to keep me from being proud about these revelations I'm, I've received-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I got a thorn in the flesh.
Seth: So fascinating. So it's like, even, like... Oh, man, I'm, like, thinking, like, so God gave him, well, we'll talk about what the thorn in the flesh is, I'm, I'm assuming.
David: Yeah, we will-
Seth: But, like-
David: ... for sure
Seth: ... I wonder if hi- his choice to put it in the third person is because of the way that God has, like, humbled him through, like, through his... Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Through his-
David: Fascinating.
Seth: Yeah, anyway.
David: Okay, we will talk about the thorn in the flesh. Um, but yeah, I think he's separating himself from the character in this story-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in this kind of rhetorical way, um, to just, yeah, to just lean on that humility.
Seth: Okay. All right, cool.
David: Uh, to just separate himself from the character, to just emphasize, "I'm not boasting about this to, 'cause I'm proud."
Seth: Yes.
David: "I'm doing it 'cause you, you forced me to it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, so here we go. Um, verse two: "I know a man in Christ, who 14 years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know. God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise. Whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know. God knows. And he heard many things that cannot be told, which man may not utter." Okay.
Seth: Okay.
David: There we go.
Seth: So Paul is talking about an experience that he had-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where he received some sort of vision or revelation from God, and he got to paradise or the third heaven.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: So-
Seth: What are we... Well, tell me about the third paradise in heaven or the third-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... heaven in paradise.
David: Yeah, I mean, this is actually, like, anybody in the first century reading this would be like, "Yep, I know exactly what you're talking about." This isn't a mystical category-
Seth: Okay
David: ... uh, or some weird tiered system. Uh, uh, I mean, you know this.
Seth: Yes.
David: This is just how the, the, the ancient, uh, cosmos were laid out.
Seth: I- if I'm remembering correctly-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like the sky that we experience with the birds-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that was heaven number one.
David: Yep, first heavens.
Seth: And then you have the stars-
David: Space
Seth: ... space, second heavens.
David: Second heaven.
Seth: And then, like, where God lives.
David: The invisible heavens above the heavens, third heaven.
Seth: The third heaven.
David: Yep.
Seth: Okay.
David: God's abode.
Seth: Yes.
David: So you got our sky, space, God's house.
Seth: Okay.
David: First, second, third.
Seth: And so-
David: So I went where God is.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's only, that's-
Seth: Okay, that's what he's saying.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: I went to God's throne room.
Seth: ... Yes.
David: Like, I like-
Seth: Like Isaiah or-
David: Bing!
Seth: Okay.
David: Exactly it. You are on it, Seth. You are on it. Okay, so here's what he's doing. This is exactly why he's talking about this. So he's comparing the, the super apostles with himself-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and they're trying to decide who's the true apostle of God, who has heard from God, who has met him. Well, the proof of true prophets for, throughout Israel's history have been these amazing moments in God's throne room-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where a prophet goes to God, is taken there.
Seth: Yes.
David: And like in the Isaiah 6 story-
Seth: Yeah, he's-
David: ... was Isaiah in the body or out of the body? I don't know.
Seth: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You'd have to ask him.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: You'd have to ask God. God knows. And it's like, but it- well, he's there, but he, his lips were, like, burned with an, an, like a, a, what was it, a coal?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Well, then whenever... Did he wake up and his lips were fine? Like, again-
Seth: Yes
David: ... it's a very similar-
Seth: Yes
David: ... experience.
Seth: He's having one of these grand moment, like the commissioning ceremony of God's prophets. He's-
David: Commissioning ceremony of God's prophets.
Seth: Okay.
David: That's what's on the line.
Seth: Okay.
David: You nailed it.
Seth: That's what he's, that's what he's saying he experienced.
David: I have had a commissioning ceremony like the prophets of old.
Seth: Okay.
David: That's, that's all that's happening here.
Seth: Okay.
David: He's just like-
Seth: Great
David: ... "I am a real prophet of God."
Seth: That's awesome.
David: And like, is this, is this just whenever Jesus appeared to him on the road to Emmaus? Probably not. Probably more than that-
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... but it could be.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That was-
Seth: On the road to Damascus.
David: On the road to Damascus?
Seth: Yes.
David: Sorry, we're big Road to Emmaus fans here.
Seth: We're big road to Emmaus fans.
David: Road to Damascus. Um-
Seth: If there's any biblical road, it's to Emmaus.
David: It's this, it's to Emmaus. All roads lead to Emmaus. Um, and so yeah, it's like, it could be that-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that was a commissioning ceremony.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's, it, it's likely a different event, but it is exactly this-
Seth: This
David: ... Old Testament thing we're used to-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... of people like, and I've got a list of them here. Let me, let me grab this. So people like, um, Moses-
Seth: Yeah, on Mount Sinai
David: ... goes up Mount Sinai.
Seth: Yep.
David: The place of God-
Seth: That's right
David: ... up in the place where heaven meets earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's meets and is commissioned by God. Uh, Elijah does this in 1 Kings 19.
Seth: Okay.
David: Micaiah in 1 Kings 22.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Isaiah in Isaiah 6, Daniel in Daniel 7. We have a lot of examples of these prophets of God meeting God, being commissioned by him, and hearing from him.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it validates their ministry.
Seth: Great.
David: So that's all he's doing here.
Seth: Okay, maybe- ... refresh my memory on some- is that controversial?
David: I don't think so.
Seth: Uh-
David: I just, I don't think it's controversial. I just know there's a lot of other opinions-
Seth: About?
David: ... about what happened to Paul here.
Seth: Oh, what are some of the other opinions?
David: I just think they get really mystical.
Seth: Okay.
David: And that he, like, was, yeah, again, transported up to some crazy place and back.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it's like, I think we get stuck on, "Well, what did he see, and what did he hear?" and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and it's like we're missing the whole point.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The whole point is, oh, Paul was a true apostle of Jesus.
Seth: Yes, he's being commissioned, and like all the other prophets-
David: Yeah, we start talking about the wrong things.
Seth: I understand.
David: So when I say that's all this is about-
Seth: Yes
David: ... 'cause I'm like, let's stop getting obsessed with the thing that Paul is intentionally obfuscating-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in order to dive in on what he's intentionally highlighting.
Seth: There's apparently, and I just, 'cause I'm not aware of it, that a lot of ink has been spilled as precisely what does the third heaven mean? Precisely what does it mean to be in the body or-
David: What did he hear? What did he see? Yeah.
Seth: Like, and it's like, well, Paul's doing less than what you... Th- there's a theology of heaven that we could get into.
David: Right.
Seth: But what Paul's doing here, he's trying to establish his apostolic authority-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... against the super apostles and saying, "Hey, as people who read the Old Testament, you know how that happens."
David: Yep.
Seth: "It happens when somebody visits God, uh, in his throne room, whether in the body or out of the body, I can't tell you, b- but that happens, and it happened to me." That's what he's... That's all he's trying to... That's what he's trying to communicate.
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, and, and then he immediately shifts out of that story, like, he breaches the one topic that I think the Corinthians would love him to spill more ink on, and then immediately moves on and says, "I'm not gonna talk about this anymore. I'm not permitted to speak about it, and I won't."
Seth: Great.
David: Whereas the super apostles apparently would probably boast about their visions, go into great detail about what they saw-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and what God said to them, and, you know, all these-
Seth: Yes
David: ... revelations they had, and they won't shut up about them. He's like, "I had a genuine experience, and I'm not gonna tell you about it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Real power move.
Seth: Yeah, it's a power move.
David: So anyway, um, so then we get to the thorn in the flesh passage, and so he says, "So to keep me from bo- from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me, but he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'" Okay.
Seth: Which is kind of the point he's been making this whole letter-
David: The whole letter
Seth: ... and this whole, this whole section is like-
David: Absolutely.
Seth: And so it, that's a fitting conclusion, "Uh, my grace is sufficient for you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Power is, uh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... shown in weakness." It's like, and what have I been saying this whole-
David: The whole time
Seth: ... letter? It's like I'm an apostle of weakness, if I'm anything.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah, that, that's... And like, and this is a word Jesus spoke to me directly.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "His power is made great-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in weakness, so that's why I'm the true apostle."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's a, it's a fitting conclusion-
David: It is
Seth: ... to everything I've heard so far-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in, i- in 2 Corinthians.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, so he says, "In order to keep me from getting conceited-"
Seth: Okay
David: ... which I, I, I think is another boast in weakness.
Seth: Oh, yeah!
David: He's like, "I have the propensity to conceit."
Seth: I want... As soon as I saw the third heaven, man-
David: Man, I was like, "I'm a f- I'm a real stinking apostle."
Seth: I'm a real prophet.
David: "Let's go," like-
Seth: There's only, like, five guys that have done this- ... me, Daniel-
David: Isaiah.
Seth: Isaiah.
David: And it's like-
Seth: Moses.
David: Yeah. I mean, I would struggle not to think those thoughts.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And he, and he's like, "What a boast in weakness." He's like, "I could have become conceited-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but to keep me from becoming conceited because of the things that I've seen..." And I think it's something, just to, just to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... insert here, I feel like God did this, did this with all his prophets.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, there's not one person on this list that I, I, I gave who had visions like this, who had an easy life everywhere else.
Seth: All the men of God's prophets were particularly, uh-
David: They had plenty of thorns
Seth: ... cushy.
David: Yeah. And so they, I think there was this kind of pattern to God-... yes, revealing himself in amazing ways to some of the leaders that he sent to his people, but also keeping them humble through difficult circumstances.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay.
David: So he says, "So in order to keep me from being conceited, God gave me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan." Okay.
Seth: Okay, yes.
David: So thorn in the flesh.
Seth: Yes.
David: Is this just an imagery? Is this just a picture? Is it just a metaphor?
Seth: I mean, if I was just to read verse, this verse, a th- whatever the thorn in the flesh is, it's a, it's a messenger of Satan.
David: Yes.
Seth: So that's... Those are the- so that's what I know.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it is-
David: Okay
Seth: ... something sent by Satan.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay, here we go. So we're, we, we've got everything we need-
Seth: Yeah. Okay
David: ... to do the easy work now of what's the thorn? 'Cause if you wanna talk about... I, I mean, I don't know if we wanna open the can of worms about all the theories out there about what this thorn in the flesh is.
Seth: I- tell me, tell me what some of them are-
David: Oh
Seth: ... because I think I'm a, I've heard that it's some sort of sickness.
David: Okay. Yep, so a lot-
Seth: And-
David: Yeah, so I've heard, I've heard some kind of sickness, some bodily ailment.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, some people get more specific about that and talk about Paul's eyesight.
Seth: Okay.
David: That's why his scr- his script is so big.
Seth: Okay. Okay.
David: It's like, "Maybe he's a scholar-
Seth: I've heard that one, too
David: ... a Torah scholar."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "So maybe it's his eyesight." Um, some people have, uh, have gone so far, and this is the one that I'm like, "Let's not talk about it," but some people have gone so far... I just wanna, I wanna paint-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the wildness with which-
Seth: Okay
David: ... people have speculated-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that Paul was a homosexual.
Seth: Okay.
David: And that that's his thorn in the flesh.
Seth: Okay.
David: And that's why also to the f- to the Corinthians, he writes about staying single and stuff like that-
Seth: Okay
David: ... because his thorn in the flesh was he was-
Seth: He was drawn
David: ... a- attracted to men.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so he's like, "I'll, I'll stay single then."
Seth: Okay.
David: "And that's my thorn in the flesh. That's my cross to bear."
Seth: Okay.
David: And, like, people have built arguments around that.
Seth: Okay.
David: I just, I think it's way simpler than all of these speculations.
Seth: I mean, based on our conversation so far-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when we said, "He gave me a thorn in the flesh," okay, metaphorical thing.
David: Yep.
Seth: I'm curious where else-
David: What is it?
Seth: ... do thorns show up in the Bible?
David: We'll get there, yes.
Seth: But then a messenger of Satan, it's like, well, I've already... Satan's been talked about multiple times already.
David: We know who the messengers of Satan are in 2 Corinthians.
Seth: Yeah, it's-
David: They've been firmly identified.
Seth: It's these false apostles.
David: Yep!
Seth: Then, right, that's, that, that seems self-evident to me.
David: Self-evident-
Seth: Based on-
David: Now that we've lined it all up.
Seth: Yeah. Then my question would be, why is it singular here, not, like, plural?
David: Yeah.
Seth: 'Cause he's always talking about false apostles, you know-
David: Sure
Seth: ... these super apostles.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Et cetera.
David: Right. So, uh, he's quoting, I think-
Seth: Oh
David: ... or alluding to at least-
Seth: Okay
David: ... Numbers 33:55.
Seth: Oh.
David: Okay, so Numbers 33:55, you got it?
Seth: I do.
David: Okay, read it for us.
Seth: It says, "But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of them who you let remain shall be as barbs in your eyes and thorns in your side, and they shall trouble you in all the land where you dwell."
David: They'll harass you.
Seth: Will harass you.
David: Okay.
Seth: So in the Old Testament, thorns in the flesh are, um, idolatrous people doing f- giving false teaching to the people of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: We-
David: And we set this category up earlier-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in the episode. Can you piece, can you put the pieces together?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, because we said that the false teachers, they're... Well, they're false teaching.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And you don't yoke, you don't put next to the teaching of Jesus, the teaching of false teachers.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Eve in the garden was led astray by-
David: Yes
Seth: ... false teachers. You have Israel itself was meant to go drive out the sons of the serpent-
David: That's right
Seth: ... from the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Garden of Eden and from the world around them.
David: And when they went into Canaan, they were to drive them out.
Seth: Drive them out.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so we have the same thing happening here. We have Canaanites in the church. We have messengers of Satan-
David: Yes
Seth: ... once again.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the same story needs to repeat itself.
David: Yes.
Seth: Get the snakes out.
David: Get the snakes out.
Seth: Get the snakes out.
David: That is what he's talking about.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, and again, he, he, he's done all this work, like we talked about, to ratchet everything up to be like the, the church is like this garden-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... that y- that we need to protect from the voice of Satan and the seed of Satan, and these messengers are like Satan, and in fact, they're like the foreign nations ruled by Satan-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that wanted to get false teaching and idolatry in.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And if you don't drive them out, what are they gonna be? Thorns in flesh.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he just calls them what they are-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... messengers of Satan. But what's interesting here-
Seth: Okay
David: ... is whose side is the thorn in right now? Not the Corinthians.
Seth: Paul's side.
David: Paul's side-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to keep him humble.
Seth: So the people that the Corinthians love to listen to are God's thorn in Paul's side.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like, "You're listening to my, my pain." Like, I like, it's-
David: Yeah. Well, well, think about... So this, this took me a while to think about-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... to be like, "Why is this the solution?" But then I thought about it for a little bit, and I was like, "This would work really well, again, on me."
Seth: Okay.
David: So, okay, Paul is like, "I could have been conceited from these revelations that I had."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I could have been like, 'Oh, man, God's really speaking to me.' I could boast, and I could become proud and boastful and start boasting in my strength-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... instead of in my weakness."
Seth: Yes.
David: Um-
Seth: "All the ministry success I've had."
David: Exactly.
Seth: "The Corinthians are killing it in all these other areas."
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, the Corinthian... And, and of all places to be like, "Man, I planted a church in Corinth."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, if you're gonna put that... If you're gonna put a church that you planted on your resume-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Corinth goes at the top.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This town was jacked up. To be able to-
Seth: I planted it inside the Bellagio.
David: Yeah, sure.
Seth: Right next to the slot machines, I started a church.
David: Yes, but, like, that's the idea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like, man, he could have become conceited, but to keep him from that conceit-
Seth: Yes
David: ... God puts this, like, mirror in front of him of these proud, braggadocios, false teachers
David: that constantly... I think they do two things. One, they show Paul what it looks like, and he's like, "Oh, yeah, I don't wanna look like that."
Seth: "I don't wanna be like..." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "That would suck. I would never wanna be that kind of a, a preacher." The other thing they do-... is they continually harass Paul, literally. He's been talking about-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... how much they've harassed him, how they degrade his ministry, and talk about him, and, and spread-
Seth: Undermine his
David: ... lies and rumors about him, undermine his authority. They're literally harassing him, so that he's like, "Man, I've- we've done such great things in the Corinthian church. No, we haven't, because they're still really struggling."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "This is still not good. This is still not working."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, uh... And so you kind of have this, you he's kind of in between conceit and despair-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where the Corinthians, although he's poured so much into them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... still really struggle, and s- and, and yet he holds on to, to God, and he knows that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he'll form Christ in them, so he doesn't despair. But then also, he's poured himself so much into them, that if they had just succeeded and everything would be fine, Paul would be tempted to be like, "I'm a really good minister."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, "I'm a really-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I'm really good."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "I grew a great church."
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "But God sent these messengers of Satan, these thorns in the flesh, that we-
Seth: Okay
David: ... need to drive out to keep me humble," to be like, "Even though I've seen Jesus, I still can't get a church to just fall in line?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like,
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... it's this, like, it's keeping him humble.
Seth: Yeah, it's so inter- and it seems really interesting to me that the instrument for Paul's humility is the, are the teachers the Corinthians are most likely to, like, be listening to.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, it... I- it's like I can't- I'm, I'm trying to fi- think through that, because if I was to hear something like that, like, "Seth, you're, you're- the people that you're listening to right now have been sent by God to persecute me," like, that puts me in a such a weird position.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And, and I'm trying to figure out, like, h- what that would feel like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to, to think that I am siding with God's punishment.
David: This is really helpful-
Seth: But
David: ... actually.
Seth: Okay, yeah.
David: Okay, this is so helpful.
Seth: Okay, help me, because I'm like, "I want..."
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So they, they, they love Paul.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? And he's like, "I've got a thorn in my flesh. I've been asking God incessantly to take it away, and yet the th- the thorn i- are these messengers of Satan, and I need you Corinthians to do what the Israelites should have done."
Seth: Mm.
David: "Drive them out."
Seth: Take the thorn out of my side.
David: Please come over here, church-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and take the thorn out of my side.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's just like they could come and care for Paul-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by doing this work he's been telling them to do, to drive it out. So he's been asking God, "God, just take the super apostles away. Take them away. Like, like fight for the purity of your church." Like, could you imagine the prayers he prayed? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "God, make your church pure."
Seth: Yes.
David: "Keep them from false teaching."
Seth: Yeah.
David: All these great prayers.
Seth: Right.
David: Super apostles still hanging out.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The, but in the Corinthians-
Seth: Mm
David: ... when they drive them away, they get to administer healing to Paul's side.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, that's really sweet, actually.
Seth: That's really sweet.
David: And really reconciling-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with them. So I, I'm like, I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's what's happening there.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Is like, what does that... What does this argument do to the person in the middle?
Seth: Yes.
David: It says, "You're going to have to be the one administering my healing."
Seth: Mm. It's really powerful.
David: Which is just, again-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... part of the polemic.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Drive them out.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Get rid of it. Purify the space. And, like, what's fascinating is, uh, you know, Paul has shown us how he is in the lineage of these true prophets of the Old Testament that we mentioned.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And all of them, like we talked about, had thorns in the flesh.
Seth: Right, because all the pr- none of the prophets were particularly well-received-
David: No
Seth: ... and they were all in conflict with some other group of false prophets-
David: Yes
Seth: ... whispering to the people of God or-
David: Yeah, or foreign nations or-
Seth: Or foreign nations
David: ... or anything like that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And the solution for all of them was to the people they were prophesying.
Seth: Right.
David: It was, "Guys, listen to my words, turn-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and things will get better."
Seth: Yeah.
David: But they never did.
Seth: Right.
David: And so again, even from a real prophet perspective, Isaiah, Jeremiah, whatever it is-
Seth: Like, he's-
David: ... they're pleading with the people of God to take away the thorn, in a sense.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: To drive out the false teachers, uh, to listen to the words of the true prophet, and bring healing to the relationship.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's what Paul's doing here.
Seth: So cool.
David: He's s- smarter than us.
Seth: Yeah, it's so fascinating- ... how, like, Paul is, like, mapping, like, the whole history of the people of God onto himself-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the church. Like, the Church is repeating the Garden of Eden story. It's repeating the, the Israelites' story.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, Paul himself is repeating the s- history of the prophets-
David: Right
Seth: ... in his relationship with the people of God. Like, there's no new story in this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this new, this current story.
David: I wanna be so steeped in- ... the Old Testament like Paul was, where this is just how I metaphoricalize everything.
Seth: Everything-
David: Just like-
Seth: ... everything is the Exodus.
David: It is! And I think I... It's like I know it is, and I just, I wanna be in that worldview more.
Seth: I mean, we kind of do it with Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? Like, everything-
David: Yeah, everything
Seth: ... in the Bible is repeating-
David: in the Bible
Seth: ... the, the story, the themes of Jesus and his resurrection.
David: So yeah, that is
David: the thorn in the flesh-
Seth: I mean-
David: ... the messengers of Satan, the third heaven.
Seth: I was expecting it to be the most controversial, and but it, it feels very... It feels-
David: I think this is controversial in that it kind of removes all controversy, 'cause we're just trying to approach the text-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... on its own terms, and say, "Well, what was Paul's point? Let's just trace the argument."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It kind of unfolds itself. He's not trying to be confusing or mysterious.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's trying to save a church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I think if you just follow his argument, you're like, "Oh-"
Seth: That makes sense.
David: "... I actually don't have to get all weird about what's the thorn-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the flesh or anything."
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause it's just the people he says it is, the messengers of Satan.
Seth: Yeah, and, I mean, it feels, feels obvious to me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: That's cool
Seth: ... I think something that's interesting to me, and maybe you'd help me get to Jesus from this observation, but so he ends this by Je- by, with Jesus's words: "My grace is sufficient for you."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Power is made perfect in weakness."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Paul's like, "Okay, then I'm going to boast of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me." So it's in my interest to boast about how beset I am by the false teachers.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes, yeah.
Seth: And because in doing so, I experience the power of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to rescue me from that in some way.
David: Oh, right, 'cause if he's rescued-
Seth: ... it will prove God's power.
David: It would only be God's power doing it.
Seth: So for the sake of Christ then, verse 10, "I'm content my- with my weaknesses, my insults, my hardships, my persecutions, and my calamities."
David: The thorn.
Seth: The thorns. "For when I'm weak, then I am strong."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so what's seems interesting is that he is begging the Corinthians to take out the thorn-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... while also being content if they-
David: To boast in it.
Seth: Yeah, or if it doesn't get removed.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And he knows that whenever it does get removed... or i- in the weakness, Jesus will be made great.
David: Mm.
Seth: And if it's taken out, it will be because Jesus has transformed the hearts of the Corinthians-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to take it out, too. Unlike-
David: In either way, Jesus wins.
Seth: In either way, Jesus wins. Um-
David: That's why he can boast in weakness.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: 'Cause either I get to sit here in that weakness, continuing to boast in the power of Jesus, or if I prevail, it will only be because of the power of Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So either way, the reason weakness brings power is because no matter what happens, if we sit in our weakness, Jesus wins.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause if anything good happens, it's because of him, and we've made room in our lives-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and in our ministry or in our, uh, witness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to be like, "If anything happened, it couldn't have been me." And, uh, you know how many times I was shipwrecked?
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, if I made it, if I made it to Patmos, it was only 'cause of Jesus.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: 'Cause I get on every ship that sinks.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I'm the, I'm the worst sailor in the universe, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I pick the worst ships. Uh, anyway.
Seth: No, so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it, it's just, it feels like an encouragement then to, like, embrace difficulty knowing that God will-
David: Mm
Seth: ... make power available to us in our own weakness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then it also... So, like, contentment with suffering or contentment with, like, like being-
David: Being maligned or... Yeah
Seth: ... maligned or something, but also, like, this gospel hope that God can overturn it.
David: Mm.
Seth: And because I can't do anything to change it, God can.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I, I think that's-
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That makes a ton of sense. I was also thinking about trying to find in the, the economy, the story of the gospel, uh, of you've got Jesus, and s- and actually Satan, you know, and us.
Seth: Yes.
David: I- if, if, you know, you... 'Cause in this, you've kinda got Paul, Corinth, and the super apostles.
Seth: Yes.
David: Well, he says they're all a picture of Jesus, Satan, and the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so I'm like, "Okay, if I had those categories using this story-
Seth: Yes
David: ... what would the story of the gospel look like?"
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, okay, so Jesus
David: was, was given a thorn in his flesh.
Seth: Yes.
David: A messenger of Satan.
Seth: A messenger of Satan.
David: He was crucified-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, pierced in his side.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He had a crown of thorns-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like the thorns of the nations, right?
Seth: Yep.
David: 'Cause the nations, Rome-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... put a thorn, thorny crown on his head-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in order to say, like, "Oh yeah, you didn't end up ruling us, did you?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: The thorns of the nations actually-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... ended up ruling the King of the Jews.
Seth: Yes.
David: So it flipped the story.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's fascinating.
Seth: Yes, and then he-
David: Never quite worded it like that before. I'm, like, blowing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... my own mind for a second.
Seth: And then he dies-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and in his weakness, he triumphs over them all.
David: Yes. Yeah, he could be content to die-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because in the end, God was the only one who'd be able to rescue him in that weakness. He put himself in the weakest place. Like, to make, to your point earlier-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he was content to be in the weakest place because only in then was he fully and wholly in God's hands to make power out of it.
Seth: Mm.
David: And he did.
Seth: That's right. Yeah.
David: And so we can boast in weakness 'cause we know about resurrection.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so then I just think about w- we don't really have a role in that story as much-
Seth: Mm
David: ... other than like, maybe we were the ones that put the thorn, the crown on him.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But, um, it is interesting to think we do get to heal the body of Christ-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, taking the thorns out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as we drive out false teaching-
Seth: Yep
David: ... as we protect the gospel.
Seth: Yeah, and even though it's like you s- well, you said we don't really see ourselves in that story except putting the thorns in the side-
David: Sure, yeah
Seth: ... but, but, but Paul shows us that we become Christ. We join him in his sufferings.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: Paul is doing that. It's like... And I think every Christian probably experience, like, can read themselves in the story in that way, too. It's like we very w- much know what it's like to be beset by suffering and, like, slander and whatever else, and the temptation is always like, "Maybe God doesn't love me."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Maybe, like, may- you know, maybe, maybe this whole, whole Christian thing isn't working out for me." And Paul's like, "No, you're in the perfect place to experience God's power."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "That, that, that might be a messenger of Satan to humble you into a recognition that God will be glorified, no matter what happens." You know, you know what I mean?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's, that's the call-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for us.
David: Yeah, we think that when we're in these weak, vulnerable, suffering, difficult, shameful situations, we're like, "Well, I guess I'm not gonna experience God's power today."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like, it's like victory mentality-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... or something inside of Christianity. But it's like, no, it's when you're suffering, find contentment in it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because only in there can you actually experience, like, "Oh, that had to be God."
Seth: Yeah. Only then do you get resurrection.
David: Right.
Seth: You only get resurrection if you're dead.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, you only get the most miraculous things when you're deep in suffering.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, so it, it's that idea of, like-
Seth: In weakness
David: ... laying things down and willingly going to those places-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that God can be the sole operator-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of power.
Seth: And then maybe even behind that, Paul says something kind of, kind of, like, wild. He said, like, "God gave it to me."
David: Mm.
Seth: "God gave me the weakness."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, I think I've talked to a lot of people in the last couple weeks, where it's like, when something happens, it's just the idea of God giving them that set of circumstances is just not-
David: Mm
Seth: ... on the top of their radar. But for Paul, it's like, that was what gives him hope.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, "If God gave me these weaknesses, then God most certainly can take me out of them."
David: Absolutely.
Seth: Um-
David: You know what? That, that reminds me of Joseph.
Seth: That... W- which one?
David: Uh, the, the, the one from the Bible. No, I'm just kidding. The, the one in Genesis.
Seth: The one in Genesis.
David: They're both from the Bible! Um, where he says, "You know what? You intended for evil-
Seth: Yes
David: ... God intended for good."
Seth: Yes.
David: "God had intent behind you selling me into slavery."... me getting thrown into prison-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: all of this stuff.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And why was he able to persevere that way and be content in that weak, humble state?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Only for God to be the one who raised him out of, by-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... his own volition and power-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to a different place? Is it 'cause he, he had a different framework?
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: It's like, "God gave me this persecution."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And often we can be like, "Isn't that gonna create a whole bunch of justice of God problems?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And won't this make us bitter towards God?" It's like, no. For Paul, for Joseph, and for others, when we understand that God is the one giving the thorn-
Seth: Mm.
David: ... God is the one doing the wounding-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it can only ever be for good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so actually seeing suffering as God-given-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... while we might have to navigate some-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... theology issues there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm just saying, like, simply here, God uses them for good.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so we can find contentment in them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause God will make-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... His strength evident.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jesus sure did.
Seth: That's right. Like, in, in his weakness, he became-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... strong. And that, that, and Paul says the same thing, "In our weakness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Christ will make us strong as well."
David: To, to, to... Okay, let me overextend-
Seth: Okay
David: ... just a second here.
Seth: Yes.
David: 'Cause I'm like, this is really fascinating, um, both to kind of address the theology issue, but also just this is a fascinating worldview we found ourselves in. And so you have G- G- you know, God works through or in or beside, however you wanna word it, the evil of the world in the crucifixion of Jesus.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, the whole evil, corrupt world vented their wrath on the Son of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, they did everything they could to stamp out the author of life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Satan did, the Jews did-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the nations did. Everybody was like, "We're going to kill-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... this person." Um, and yet in overextending themselves in that way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they were beaten. They gave their most strength, their most boast-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right
David: ... their biggest forms of punishment-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and everything they could, and they couldn't ke- they couldn't keep him down.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In his weakness, he was seen as strong.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's interesting here that you have the boastful super apostles overextending themselves against the Corinthian church in, in the same way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're like, "Oh, no, we're the best. We can oppress you-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and charge you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and do whatever. We have revelations." And in a sense, they're headed for the same destination-
Seth: That's right
David: ... as Satan-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in, in-
Seth: That's right
David: ... Paul's glorification among them.
Seth: It... Yeah, that's right. Like, they're, they're so concerned with their own power-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... they forget that weakness is... Like, Paul, Paul's re- like, remember how weakness leads to p-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... true power.
David: He's, he's like, "I'm gonna beat you in the grave the same way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Jesus beat Satan."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just like a cool meditation.
Seth: That's great. I like that.
David: Anyway. Okay.
Seth: I like that.
David: All right. All right, I think that'll do it for this.
Seth: Yes.
David: That was fun.
Seth: That was super fun.
David: Thank you.
Seth: Thank you.
David: Yeah, and thank you everyone for listening and being on this journey with us. We're so glad you joined us, and we will see you next time.
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