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2 Corinthians: The Unveiled Face

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Seth and David do a deep dive into one of their favorite verses in the Bible.

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The Unveiled Face: How Beholding Jesus Transforms Us in 2 Corinthians 3-4

Show Notes

In this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, hosts David and Seth explore one of the most foundational passages for Spoken Gospel's mission and identity. While the previous episode provided a holistic overview of 2 Corinthians, this conversation zooms in on chapters three and four to examine a text that has shaped the ministry's core conviction: when we behold Jesus in Scripture, we become like him. The discussion unpacks how Paul defends his apostleship while simultaneously providing a framework for understanding transformative Bible engagement. The hosts acknowledge that they wanted to slow down and carefully examine whether their long-held interpretation of this passage truly reflects what Paul intended, inviting listeners into a text that holds profound personal and organizational significance.

The central question driving this episode concerns the distinction between Bible engagement and transformative Bible engagement. The hosts contend that there is a type of Scripture reading that actually changes a person, and such transformation is precipitated by an encounter with Jesus. This conviction undergirds why Spoken Gospel attempts to show the gospel in all of Scripture, believing that when people encounter Jesus through the biblical text, genuine transformation occurs. Yet the hosts also recognize that Paul's primary concern in this passage is not providing a hermeneutical method for reading the Bible but rather defending his legitimacy as an apostle against false teachers who had infiltrated the Corinthian church.

The Triumphal Procession and the Nature of True Apostleship

Beginning in 2 Corinthians 2:14, Paul describes his apostolic ministry using the vivid imagery of a Roman triumphal procession. When a Roman emperor announced his gospel—a term used in Roman propaganda to describe imperial victories—he would enter a town with prisoners of war following behind him. These captives would walk past the emperor and then be publicly executed as a demonstration of the emperor's power over his enemies. The hosts explore the paradox inherent in Paul's use of this image: is Paul riding alongside Jesus in the triumph, or is he a prisoner of war being led to execution? The answer, remarkably, is both.

This paradoxical picture captures the essence of true apostleship as Jesus defined it. The apostles were commissioned to leadership through slavery, servanthood, and suffering. When God called Paul through Ananias, He specified that Paul would know how much he must suffer for Christ's sake. Paul therefore imagines himself joining in Jesus's triumph over death while simultaneously recognizing that participating in this triumph means his own death and slavery as an apostle of Jesus Christ. The fragrance of Christ that Paul spreads everywhere carries different meanings depending on the audience: to those being saved, it smells like life, but to those perishing, it reeks of death. The message of a triumphant procession is either good news or doom, depending on one's allegiance to the conquering king.

Paul then asks the crucial question that the false apostles were directing at him: "Who is sufficient for these things?" This question about competency and qualification lies at the heart of the attacks against Paul. In contrast to the "hucksters" and "peddlers" of God's Word who operated for profit, Paul presents himself as someone commissioned by God to speak Christ through sincerity. The contrast could not be starker: a valiant prisoner of war paradoxically victorious through death versus snake oil salesmen hawking religion for personal gain. True apostleship, Paul argues, proclaims Christ through life and death, while any other message constitutes mere peddling.

Letters of Recommendation and the New Covenant Reality

The false apostles had apparently come to Corinth bearing letters of recommendation from prominent figures, establishing their credentials through external validation. Paul addresses this directly in chapter three, asking whether he needs similar letters of recommendation or whether he is simply commending himself. His response completely reframes the conversation: the Corinthian believers themselves are Paul's letter of recommendation, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

This argument operates on multiple levels simultaneously. On one level, Paul points to the effectiveness of his ministry—the transformed lives of the Corinthians demonstrate that his apostolic work has produced genuine fruit. He did not need outside credentials because the very existence of a godly, transformed Christian community in Corinth proved that his ministry had been effective and anointed by God. The Spirit's work in writing on human hearts provided all the commendation Paul required.

Yet Paul also ratchets up the argument to an epochal level. By referencing tablets of stone versus hearts of flesh, and ink versus Spirit, Paul evokes the prophetic promises of Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31. These prophets spoke of a coming New Covenant in which God would write His law on people's hearts rather than on external tablets, enabling obedience from within rather than imposing commands from without. Paul claims that his ministry participates in this long-awaited New Covenant era, while implying that the false apostles, with their emphasis on Jewish identity markers and written credentials, represent a return to the Old Covenant that proved unable to transform human hearts. The comparison is not merely between two competing ministers but between two different epochs of redemptive history.

The Ministry of Moses and the Glory That Fades

Paul grounds his argument in the narrative of Exodus 33-34, where Moses received the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. The hosts walk through this story in detail: God gave Israel the commandments amid an intense experience of His presence, but the people constructed a golden calf while Moses was still on the mountain. The covenant was broken before it was even fully delivered—broken before spoken, as the hosts phrase it. Moses shattered the tablets as a visual representation of the covenant breach, and a new distance emerged between God and His people. The tent of meeting was set up outside the camp, and only Moses could enter to speak with God face to face.

When Moses requested to see God's glory, God responded paradoxically. Though Moses spoke with God face to face, God declared that no one could see His face and live. Instead, God hid Moses in a cleft of the rock and allowed His back—the afterglow of His glory—to pass by. After this encounter, Moses received new tablets and descended the mountain to speak God's laws to the people. What he did not realize was that his face was shining, radiating the glory he had beheld. The people were frightened by this radiance, so Moses covered his face with a veil after delivering God's words.

Paul interprets this veiling as an indictment of the people's hardened hearts. The Exodus narrative does not explain why Moses veiled himself, but Paul provides the reason: their minds were hardened, and they could not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. The glory attended the Old Covenant, but that covenant had a built-in expiration date because the people refused to enter fully into relationship with God. They did not want to approach the mountain, they did not wait for the law, and they turned to idolatry at the first opportunity. The veil pictured their spiritual condition—hearts separated from the transforming glory of God, unable to receive what was offered.

Paul describes the Old Covenant as a "ministry of death" and "ministry of condemnation"—startling language that he carefully qualifies elsewhere in Romans and Galatians. The point is not that the law was evil but that it was unable to produce the transformation it commanded. External commands written on stone could not change hearts that resisted God's presence. The glory of Moses's ministry was real and magnificent, but it was also fading, pointing forward to something greater that would come.

Turning to the Lord and Unveiled Transformation

Paul draws a crucial connection between Moses's practice of removing his veil when entering God's presence and the New Covenant promise of transformation. Whenever Moses turned to the Lord and entered the tent of meeting, he removed the veil and spoke with God face to face. Paul takes this narrative detail and applies it to believers: "But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed." The language of turning connects to the broader biblical theme of repentance and covenant renewal. Throughout the Old Testament, prophets called Israel to turn back to God after experiencing the curses that resulted from covenant unfaithfulness.

The promise in Deuteronomy 4:30 anticipated that after Israel experienced the consequences of disobedience, they would turn to the Lord and obey Him. Second Chronicles 30:9 promised that if they turned to the Lord, He would show compassion and not turn His face from them. This language of God's face takes on profound significance in light of what Moses was denied on the mountain—he saw only God's back, not His face. But the prophetic hope pointed toward a day when God would fully reveal Himself to His people.

Paul declares that this turning happens through Jesus Christ: "Only through Christ is it taken away." When people repent and turn to Jesus, they experience what Moses experienced in the tent of meeting but in a far more glorious form. The Lord to whom believers turn is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom—freedom from the blindness that prevented transformation, freedom from the inability to become the people God created them to be. Unlike Moses, who veiled and unveiled repeatedly, believers now live with permanently unveiled faces, beholding the glory of the Lord and being transformed into His image from one degree of glory to another.

The Light of the Gospel in the Face of Jesus Christ

Paul brings his argument to its climax in chapter four by connecting the glory believers behold to the face of Jesus Christ specifically. The god of this world blinds the minds of unbelievers, preventing them from seeing "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Here Paul evokes both the Genesis creation account and the Exodus glory narrative. Just as the original darkness was pierced when God spoke light into existence, so God has shone in believers' hearts "to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

The hosts note that for Paul, this language was not merely metaphorical. On the Damascus road, Paul literally saw the light of Christ's glory, and that encounter made him a new creation. What Moses was denied—the face of God—is now revealed in Jesus. The glory that could only be glimpsed from behind, the afterglow that faded from Moses's face, finds its full and permanent expression in the incarnate Son. Jesus is the image of God, the perfect reflection of the Father's glory, and when the gospel is proclaimed, people behold that face and are transformed.

This reality explains why Paul and his fellow apostles do not lose heart despite persecution, rejection, and attack. They have been given a ministry that ends in genuine transformation, the fulfillment of everything the prophets hoped for. They proclaim not themselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, presenting themselves as servants for Jesus's sake. The power is not in Paul's eloquence or credentials but in the message itself. As Paul writes in Romans, the gospel is the power of God for salvation—there is something inherently effective about the proclamation of what Jesus has accomplished that produces the change the Mosaic law could never achieve.

The hosts reflect on how this passage shapes their understanding of why preaching the gospel to ourselves matters. When the gospel is proclaimed—whether to others or to our own hearts—it carries the same creative power God spoke at the beginning of creation. The words "let there be light" brought a universe into existence; the words of the gospel bring new creation to human hearts. This is why Spoken Gospel exists to show Jesus throughout all of Scripture: not merely to provide interesting biblical connections but because the proclamation of the gospel carries transformative power. The spoken word about Jesus, empowered by the Spirit, does what written law on stone tablets could never accomplish—it changes people from the inside out, reflecting the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Transcript

David: [gentle music] It's not only about what you can see, which I think is a bit of Paul's point here-

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: ... that the super apostles look impressive.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But the deep work of the Spirit-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is more impressive. [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: You can al- anybody can look impressive-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but it's extremely impressive to actually become-

Seth: Yes

David: ... a different type of person.

Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome, everybody, to a very special episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Last time, we looked at 2 Corinthians. We did, like, a holistic overview of the book.

Seth: That's right.

David: Today, we're gonna zoom in to about two chapters within it, because they have specific import to Spoken Gospel and our mission here.

Seth: Yes.

David: And a lot of times, we talk about what we're trying to do at Spoken Gospel and why we're trying to do it, we refer back to these chapters.

Seth: That's right.

David: Um, and mainly, just to simplify it-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... so everybody knows what we're talking about, is mainly the idea that when we behold Jesus in scripture, we become like him.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so we tend to differentiate between Bible engagement and transformative Bible engagement.

Seth: Yes.

David: That there's a type of Bible engagement that actually changes you-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and that is one precipitated by an encounter with Jesus.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so that's why we try to show the gospel in all of scripture, is so people can have an encounter with Jesus-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and be transformed. And so we-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... we, we try to get that from this text here.

Seth: That's right.

David: So we were like, "Well, let's slow down-

Seth: And let's-

David: ... look at it holistically in context-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and be like, 'Is that what this is saying?'" [laughing]

Seth: Exactly! [laughing] Have we been reading the text correctly? Uh-

David: And ho- or ho- and hopefully be more illumined-

Seth: Yes

David: ... by the passage-

Seth: That's right

David: ... than before, and at the same time, invite you all, our listeners, into, um, a really special passage for me and Seth-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and for Spoken Gospel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So that's the setup there, Seth.

Seth: That's, that's exactly right. And at the very least, the hope here is that the power of God's transformative resurrection is available to us in Jesus.

David: Amen. [chuckles]

Seth: And, like, the reason why I personally wanted to slow down and, like, engage with this particular set of text is that there's a set of facts here that I find fascinating, and you've named them all. There's a way to read the Old Testament that's veiled. There's a way to read the Old Testament that is... Um, I'm saying all the things without reading them. I apologize.

David: [chuckles]

Seth: But, like, there's a way to read the Old Testament that's veiled, and there's a way that is not veiled, and when the, when the veil is taken away, something powerful happens.

David: Yep.

Seth: Jesus is seen.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Transformation happens. And I think all those facts have existed in my mind, and I have a very clean thing in my head.

David: Yes.

Seth: When I see Jesus in the Old Testament, I am transformed.

David: Yep.

Seth: And I think, "Oh, do all those facts cohere together? Is that the point Paul is trying to make, or is it a little more subtle, or how do I get to that conclusion-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... based off of something that I would love to spend more time in?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's what this conversation's about.

David: I'm excited about that, too. Yeah, yeah, on the very front page of our website, at least at this airing, 'cause I'm sure it will change eventually-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but at the very front, there's a statement that just says, "Change the way you read your Bible. Change your life."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we're trying to get people to read the Bible unveiled-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... so they can see the glory of Jesus, and we get that from this passage.

Seth: Yes.

David: But what's going on here? [laughs]

Seth: What's going on here?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Why is Paul talking about it?

David: Yeah, exactly, so-

Seth: Especially because in our last episode, we talked that this isn't actually about how to read the Bible at all.

David: No, absolutely not.

Seth: What it's about is Paul defending the fact that he is a true apostle of Jesus Christ and a delegated messenger of the truth about Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, and so that's interesting. This is a defense of Paul, and he's using the Old Testament to partly defend himself and as a polemic against these false apostles that have come in.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But it also seems to be an example of how we're supposed to read our Bibles.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So all those are the things that we wanna talk about.

David: That's good. Let's get into it. Where should we start?

Seth: Let's start in 2 Corinthians 2:14.

David: Okay.

Seth: So if you pick up most commentaries, they will begin to divide the text, starting here, all the way to the end of chapter seven, as this central unit in which Paul defends his apostleship-

David: Okay

Seth: ... against the attacks of the false teachers. After this moment, he'll go on to talk about generosity and then attack the false teachers directly, but here, this is his defense proper of the ministry that he's been entrusted to by God.

David: Okay.

Seth: And he begins the ministry by describing what it's like to be an apostle. So he says this in verse 14, "Thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession and, through us, spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. We are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing." So this first image of being an apostle is following Jesus in a triumphal procession.

David: Mm.

Seth: And this would've been a very well-known image to the Corinthians.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They are a Roman colony, and so what happened when a Roman emperor, uh, would announce his gospel, because gospel is also a-

David: A political word

Seth: ... a politic- a Roman w- propaganda word-

David: Yep

Seth: ... to describe the victories of an emperor, the emperor would come into the town declaring the victory that he's achieved over some other people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And as he comes into that town, prisoners of war would follow behind him, and as he gets to the town square, the prisoner of, of war would walk past the emperor, and then be summarily executed publicly.

David: Whoa!

Seth: And this was a proclamation of the emperor's power over his enemies.

David: Wait, but if Paul's being led in the procession-

Seth: Yes.

David: -is he part of the triumphing party, like, with Jesus? Like, is he riding on horseback next to Jesus-

Seth: Well, this is-

David: -or is he a prisoner of war about to be executed?

Seth: Well, that's part of-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... the, the paradox of the picture of apostleship.

David: Oh, my God.

Seth: So Jesus-

David: I never knew that.

Seth: You never knew that?

David: I never knew this.

Seth: Oh, fascinating!

David: That is so fascinating.

Seth: So yeah, so we talked about last time how Jesus himself, when he's talking to the apostles, describes their leadership in terms of slavery, servanthood, and the commission to suffer.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Paul himself, when God commissions him, and when God tells Ananias-

David: Yes

Seth: ... what Paul will do, Paul will know how much he must suffer.

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: So Paul is imagining the triumph of Jesus over death, and that he is joining with him in that triumph. However, the triumph over death means his own death and slavery-

David: Mm

Seth: ... as an apostle of Jesus Christ as well.

David: And that, in some sense, when he dies and suffers and goes low-

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

David: ... that death-

Seth: Yes

David: ... will look like life to people who know the gospel.

Seth: That's right.

David: But to those who don't get it, it'll just look like he died.

Seth: That's right, and you can imagine, like, "Okay, I'm a citizen of some colony out in the middle of nowhere, and the Roman emperor comes with the defeated-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... enemies." It's like, this is either good news for me-

David: Right

Seth: ... because I trust the emperor.

David: Yeah, I'm on the emperor's side.

Seth: I'm on the emperor's side, or this is a message of doom to me.

David: Right.

Seth: And-

David: This is what he's gonna do to my city.

Seth: That's right, or to me, if he finds out my true allegiances.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Uh, and so that is... He's like-

David: Whoa .

Seth: "This.. is the ministry that I have been given, the ministry of death in the hopes of the proclamation of the power of Jesus."

David: You're setting the high bar for the beginning of this episode for me, so

Seth: [laughing]

David: So hope you can keep it up.

Seth: I hope I can keep it up. And so here's the next thing he asks. He- and this gets to the heart of the false apostles' attack on him. He says this in verse 16, "Who is sufficient for these things?" He- another translation might say, "Who is equal to this task?"

David: Yeah, totally.

Seth: Of, of being this, uh-

David: Prisoner of war

Seth: ... this prisoner of war. That is precisely the question the false apostles are asking of Paul.

David: Oh, yeah. "Who's equal to the task of leading this church, being an apostle of this church?"

Seth: Th- that's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then Paul goes on, "So for, uh... Because we are not like so many peddlers of God's Word-

David: Ooh

Seth: ... uh, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God, we speak Christ." So the very beginning, he says, "True apostleship is one in which it's an invitation that, through our life and death-

David: Death

Seth: ... that Christ is proclaimed."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Any other message is peddling.

David: Oh, man.

Seth: It's a peddling of God's Word, and presumably here, for profit here. There's an implication that they're doing it for payment more than for-

David: Yeah ...

Seth: uh-

David: Definitely.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: You might not have gotten into this-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in your study. Is, is that term, peddler-

Seth: Yes

David: ... also a- another, like, Roman or Greek-

Seth: Oh!

David: ... form of proclaimer, where it's like, oh, you've got the processional triumphal march of a gospel being proclaimed-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... and there's a image there, and it, it seems like he's con- he's contrasting them-

Seth: It's-

David: ... with, like, "And then there's those snake oil peddlers who come-"

Seth: That-

David: "... into town, and-

Seth: The-

David: ... take advantage of you." [chuckles]

Seth: The, uh, the bes- I saw s- one commentator translate it as huckster.

David: Huckster [laughs] That's good.

Seth: Like, like, versus the, the, like, valiant prisoner of war.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, th- this, like, con- like, paradoxical-

David: Right

Seth: ... prisoner of war who's simultaneously victorious-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and a huckster-

David: With snake oil

Seth: ... who's in it for the money.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, like, that's the comparison Paul draws.

David: That's strong.

Seth: It's so, so, such-

David: That's super strong

Seth: ... such a strong opening.

David: Yeah, a prisoner-

Seth: Uh

David: ... of war versus a snake oil slinger.

Seth: That's right.

David: That's just-

Seth: And so-

David: ... good writing. [laughs]

Seth: That is such good writing. [laughs] Such good writing! And so what Paul does now is like, "Okay, let me defend that I am sufficient for this ministry," because, again, the, the whole-

David: That's what's under attack

Seth: ... that's what's under attack, Paul's sufficiency or his competency-

David: Right

Seth: ... to do this. But remember, too, that Paul is also refusing to play the game-

David: That's right

Seth: ... of the false apostles. He doesn't wanna be like, "Well, I'm just better than you."

David: Yep.

Seth: "I'm more self-sacrificial than you."

David: Yeah- Or like- ... Jesus, uh, you were sent by letters of recommendation. Jesus sent me and met me on a road.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Deal with it.

Seth: That's right.

David: That's not what he's gonna do.

Seth: How can he prove his apostleship-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... as one of life-giving through death-

David: Yes

Seth: ... without playing the games of these-

David: Yep

Seth: ... self-congratulatory hucksters?

David: Exactly.

Seth: That's what he's doing.

David: Yep.

Seth: So-

David: Okay

Seth: ... uh, verse three. Uh, chapter three, verse one begins, "So are we beginning to commend ourselves to you?"

David: Oh, because he's been, like, saying like, "I am fit for the task-

Seth: That's right

David: ... you're not." Uh, and then he's like, "Wait, hold on. Do you think I'm doing the same thing that the peddlers are doing?"

Seth: Yeah, and then he goes on, "Or do we need, s- as some of you do, letters of recommendation?"

David: Right.

Seth: So the idea here is Paul is saying that he is an apostle of God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... sufficient for this task, but he's the only one saying it.

David: Oh, so that's the commend ourselves?

Seth: That's the commend ourselves. Do we, do I commend myself?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Am I... Uh, is my only claim to authority-

David: I see

Seth: ... my own testimony?

David: I understand.

Seth: Or do I need letter of recommendation like you do?

David: Okay.

Seth: Uh-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... so that's, that's the claim.

David: Okay, so Paul... They're, they're saying like, "Hey, Paul's just saying he's an apostle."

Seth: Yes.

David: "You gotta take his word for it. We've got 40 signatures from famous people."

Seth: That's right.

David: "Who are you gonna trust?"

Seth: That's right.

David: And Paul's saying, "Let's put those claims next to each other."

Seth: That's right.

David: "This s- proposed self-commendation-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... versus these letters of recommendation."

Seth: Yeah, so he's-

David: "And let's see which one holds water."

Seth: ... I am sufficient for these things, and, and you're claiming that. The only person saying that is me.

David: Is me.

Seth: But- and you want me to have letters of recommendation to prove otherwise, but Paul says, "I'm not gonna play that game."

David: Yep, I'm gonna show you a different game to play.

Seth: Um, and he says this, here's a different game. He says, "You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Jesus, from Christ, delivered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of the human heart."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: A lot just got unpacked there.

David: Yes.

Seth: But let us move forward. [laughing]

David: Great.

Seth: So he's like, he's saying, "I don't need letters of recommendation the way that you think I need written letters of recommendation, because the commendation that I have-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... is you!"

David: Right.

Seth: And-

David: I actually do have letters of recommendation-

Seth: And it-

David: ... but they're you.

Seth: That's you. The fact that the Corinthian church exists-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and that you have exhibited godliness and a transformed life, and that you have stopped some of your sinful ways-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and begun practicing the ways of King Jesus, all of that is proof that the ministry that I've come and done among you has been effective-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and good, and reeks of the aroma of the King who conquered death.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: That's what he's saying.

David: Yes, definitely.

Seth: Questions?

David: Uh, yeah, then there's... That makes a ton of sense.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, they're giving these outside credentials for-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... their authority to come in and lead this church.

Seth: Yes.

David: My authority comes from your transformed lives.

Seth: That's right.

David: Isn't, isn't the, your life transformation proof that my ministry has been effective?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We don't need outside sources. Look at you!

Seth: That's right.

David: You're different. But then there's also this thing between, uh, like, written on ink and-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... wr- with ink on stone versus written on hearts with the Spirit.

Seth: Yes.

David: That, that's different.

Seth: Yeah, that's different.

David: What's going on there?

Seth: So, so they are boasting about their written letters of recommendation, right?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's like, that's what commends them, that's what qualifies them to be ministers, presumably.

David: Right.

Seth: And he's saying, "You know, that's a kind of commendation, that's a kind of letter of recommendation, a written one."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "However, mine have been not written with ink, but by the Spirit." [chuckles] So he's like, he's just saying-

David: Ratcheting it up.

Seth: He's just ratcheting it up. Like, "Okay, you've got ink letters, I've got Spirit letters"-

David: Spirit letters [laughing]

Seth: ... Spirit letters. "You've got parchment"-

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: "I've got human souls."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he's like, "What I am doing is f- far exceeds"-

David: "You want me to play your game? I'm playing a different game."

Seth: I'm play- God is playing a different game. [laughing]

David: Yeah, God is playing a different game. [laughing]

Seth: He is doing something among the Corinthians-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that cannot be

Seth: simplified-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... or bound to pen and paper.

David: That's right.

Seth: Uh, and that's his, that's the argument that he's making.

David: Yep, that makes sense.

Seth: But he's also doing something eschatological.

David: Oh!

Seth: He's doing something, like, epochal. He's doing s- he's doing something that is not merely contrasting comparative effectiveness. He's pointing out that what he's doing is of a different-

David: Different

Seth: ... era.

David: I understand. S- yeah, I was won- I was wondering-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... 'cause when you, when I hear things like stone-

Seth: Yes

David: ... versus hearts-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and, like, an etching on stone versus-

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

David: ... an etching by the Spirit on the heart, I'm like, "This seems like things that were promised in the Old Testament." [chuckles]

Seth: That's ex- he-

David: Yes

Seth: ... I mean, he is alluding to Ezekiel 36-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... where Paul, or not Paul, where Ezekiel talk- [chuckles] whoa, crazy.

David: [chuckles]

Seth: Ezekiel is talking about what God will do in the New Covenant-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... where He will, instead of teaching laws from the mouth of prophets, He will write it on people's heart.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And people will obey from the heart-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... what he's doing. And so what Paul's saying is, "The ministry that I'm a part of is actually the ministry that was prophesied-

David: Mm

Seth: ... throughout the whole Old Testament."

David: Which is an effective ministry.

Seth: Which is an effective ministry.

David: Like, the, the-

Seth: That's right

David: ... ministry of the l- of the law and the Old Covenant was proven again, and again, and again to be somewhat impotent-

Seth: That's right

David: ... to change the hearts of humans.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so God promised a New Covenant that would be-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... facilitated through His Spirit on human hearts that would actually-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and that just means that it would actually be effective to create the change that the law should have made.

Seth: Yes, and that it did not.

David: But was ineffective to make.

Seth: And so he's moving very quickly-

David: Very quickly

Seth: ... from an argument about comparative sources of recommendation [chuckles]

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to, like, describing almost something theological that's happening.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "I am preaching about the New Covenant", and he seems to be implying, "You are continuing to bind people to the Old Covenant-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to something that has been fulfilled in Jesus."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, uh, and he'll, he'll use the word "passed away"-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or "nullified"-

David: Right

Seth: ... in comparison. Uh, but, like, he's saying that he is a minister of the new era that God has promised since Ezekiel-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... since Jeremiah.

David: That's right.

Seth: So that's what he's about.

David: Yeah, it... [exhales] I'm trying to think of a good metaphor, but, you know, I was like- it's like, it's like you had two mortgage brokers or something.

Seth: Yeah, okay. [laughing]

David: And, and they're both trying to give you a loan.

Seth: Okay.

David: And one is in a very fancy suit, and he's got all these things, and he's, he's very persuasive-

Seth: Yes

David: ... very good mortgage broker, whatever that is.

Seth: I know so many mortgage brokers. [laughing]

David: Yeah, uh-huh. And then this other one comes up, and he's like, "Oh, uh, the loan you're about to sign over there, uh, he is- he's giving you out Monopoly money, [chuckles] and I'm giving out real money."

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: It's just like, it's just a different thing that's happening.

Seth: That's right.

David: Like... Or, like, a, a, if there was, like, some kind of currency that passed away from usage, like- [chuckles]

Seth: Maybe, maybe just to continue to play with this strange metaphor- [laughing]

David: ... horrible analogy!

Seth: But it's like-... then this kind of le- less well-dressed- [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: -mortgage broker comes up and says, "The mortgage you're about to sign, you'll always be in debt to it."

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: "Like, you'll never escape... Like, that debt doesn't have an expiration date."

David: Right.

Seth: "However, my loan will one day be paid off." [laughs]

David: Yeah, something like that.

Seth: Something like that. [laughs]

David: It's just a different thing.

Seth: It's a different thing.

David: Yeah. He's elevating it away from just his own ministry-

Seth: That's right

David: ... and to, like, "We're just talking about two different epochs here."

Seth: Yeah, and presumably, and this goes back to, you know, there's a lot of scholarly debate about who precisely these false apostles are-

David: Sure

Seth: ... and how they identified themselves. But later in Paul's letter, he'll, he'll mention that they boast about their Hebrewness and their-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the fact that they're Israelites and that they're children of Abraham. So potentially, and with this inclusion of, like, a conversation about the Old Testament and New Testament-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... potentially, they are advocating for some form of adherence to the Old Testament laws-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that Paul sees as inherently not new covenant.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, it is- will not bring the life with which the resurrected Jesus has promised-

David: Mm

Seth: ... in the new era.

David: Okay.

Seth: Like, it won't bring about the transformation.

David: Yeah. Okay, so there's a ratcheting up-

Seth: Yep

David: ... with this language of-

Seth: Yes

David: ... hearts and ink.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: And because Paul is a minister of this new covenant that is prophesied in Ezekiel and Jeremiah-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in verse four he says, "Such is the confidence that we have through Christ towards God,"

David: Wow.

Seth: "that this is the ministry that we have. We are confident."

David: Yeah, God said this new ministry would happen, and he's given it to us, his ambassadors.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so the confidence we're acting in is not our own strength, but the promises of God.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which is exactly why in the next verse it says, "Not that we are sufficient" — which is the question that started this whole thing-

David: Right

Seth: ... "in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God-

David: Mm

Seth: ... who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant."

David: There it is.

Seth: Right, and, and by the way, new covenant is mentioned only one time in the Old Testament, in the prophet Jeremiah.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: And he's saying, like... And then Jesus mentions it at the Lord's Supper, when he is, like, instituting the bread and the wine as the symbol of the new covenant age.

David: Yep.

Seth: So Paul is saying, "I am in continuity with Jeremiah-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and Jesus."

David: Yep.

Seth: "Not..." Uh, and then he goes on, so, "So we... And we have been made sufficient for these things by God, who is doing the work in them." So remember, like, the Spirit is the one writing.

David: That's right.

Seth: God is the one effecting the transformation. So even though Paul is a minister of it, he is not the one who is sufficient for such things.

David: Right.

Seth: Does, does that make sense?

David: Totally. Yeah, it's like the super apostles are claiming their own abilities, their own references, and they're like, "We can come and-

Seth: That's right

David: ... effect change and effectiveness in this church."

Seth: Yes.

David: And Paul says, "That's not how the new covenant's gonna come about. It's going to be a-

Seth: Not through the power of-

David: Not through the power of a human-

Seth: That's right

David: ... but by the power of the Spirit on hearts."

Seth: That's right.

David: "And isn't that my letter of recommendation? Isn't that the work you've experienced in your own hearts? I didn't do that."

Seth: Yes.

David: "I wasn't sufficient to do that, but I was called to be the ambassador who brought it about through the Spirit-

Seth: Yes

David: ... but that all comes from God."

Seth: That's right.

David: "I'm not playing the same game."

Seth: He's not playing the same game, and he's simultaneously proving his apostleship-

David: That's right

Seth: ... without proving his superiority.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, does that, like-

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Like, it's, it's brilliant.

David: Yep.

Seth: So he says this in verse four, "God has made us sufficient to this task of being prisoners of war, on [chuckles] our way to be executed in the proclamation of the gospel, uh, to be ministers of a new covenant." And then he says this, "Not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." And so he's saying a couple things here.

David: Mm.

Seth: One, "Your ministry based on letters of recommendation is one that is a death sentence-

David: Mm

Seth: ... compared to the mi- the ministry of the new covenant and the Spirit, which is what I'm bringing." However, he's also saying that there seems to be something about their adherence to the written laws on the tablets of stone that brought death, compared to the new covenant ministry written on people's heart by the Spirit.

David: When he's saying, "New covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit-

Seth: Yes

David: ... he's saying, "I am al- I'm not only asking you to compare the ministries of the super apostles to my ministry.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I'm asking you to compare the ministry of, I guess you could say Moses or the-

Seth: That's right

David: ... or the, the Torah-

Seth: That's right

David: ... and the ministry of Jesus."

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: That something is also in, in contest or conversation at least there.

Seth: That's right. And, I mean, this is a pretty intense claim that he makes. He's like, "The ministry of Moses is one that ultimately and fundamentally killed or brought death."

David: Yeah, that's an interesting claim. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, versus the one of the Spirit that gives life. Paul will actually spend a lot of time, like, qualifying what he means by this in other books of the Bible-

David: Yes, he will

Seth: ... like in Romans-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... and Galatians. He talks a lot about-

David: Very carefully.

Seth: Very carefully. Here, he's on a polemical and apologetic attack, so the, the focus remains, in some sense-

David: Mm

Seth: ... on the comparative effectiveness of his ministry versus these Jewish false apostles.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: However, he is making a claim about the old covenant and what Moses did. So I don't know if we wanna talk about that before moving on.

David: Yeah, I mean, the one thing I'm thinking right now, and I don't know if it's a helpful question, is why is it bad news or, like, that the letter kills-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... if he's talking all about how he's on a procession of death?

Seth: Ah.

David: It, it's just interesting. Those are somehow talking to each other-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and I'm not sure how, but it's interesting.

Seth: I guess presumably the procession of death that he's on is one that leads to resurrection.

David: It leads to life.

Seth: It leads to life.

David: Through the Spirit.

Seth: Life through the Spirit, and as they pick up their- as Paul picks up his own cross, he finds life.

David: It looks like death, but he's gonna get life.

Seth: That's right, in the same way-

David: Whereas the super apostles-

Seth: That's right

David: ... it looks like life, but it's gonna get death. It reminds me of something our rabbi said. [laughs]... whoever wants to save his life will lose it, whoever loses his life will save it.

Seth: It's funny how, like, the apostles- [laughs]

David: I guess this guy really is an apostle of Jesus. [laughs]

Seth: An apostle of Jesus!

David: Oh, my goodness.

Seth: [sighs] Maybe we should just go on. I'm trying to, like, get to-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think we can, 'cause he's just gonna keep unpacking it.

Seth: So the way that he unpacks this, this kind of big statement, the letter-

David: Kills

Seth: ... the old covenant, the ministry of Moses kills-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... versus the ministry of the Spirit brings life. He's gonna start comparing the ministry of Moses and the ministry of the Spirit by referring to a story in the Book of Exodus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: A very specific story in Exodus 33 and 34. The story goes like this-

David: Story time.

Seth: Story time!

David: It's story time with Seth.

Seth: Um, God gives Israel the Ten Commandments.

David: Yeah, the stone tablets.

Seth: The stone tablets, and, you know, everyone is pretty excited about this. They've just been rescued from Egypt. God has shown up on a mountain. There's this intensity of relationship with God. God appears not just to Moses, but to all the elders of Israel. There is this moment on the mountain where blood is shed, and people are committing to God and celebrating. Awesome!

David: Yeah.

Seth: Moses walks down the mountain to find Israel worshiping a golden calf.

David: Whoops.

Seth: So in the moment of this great intimacy and m- like, and the giving of the law, it is also attended with a breaking of the law.

David: Yeah, and death immediately after. [chuckles]

Seth: And a death immediately after.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So this, there's this really crazy moment where something is given, and then it is immediately broken-

David: Mm

Seth: ... before it can even be spoken, practically.

David: Ooh, broken before spoken.

Seth: Broken before spoken.

David: Ooh, I like that.

Seth: I should be a poet. [laughs]

David: You should. [laughs] Sounding good.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Yep, okay.

Seth: Um-

David: Following you.

Seth: And then when Moses sees this, he throws the tablets on the ground and breaks them.

David: As a picture of the breaking of the covenant?

Seth: That's right.

David: Yep.

Seth: That's right, and immediately after that story, there is a new distance placed between Moses and God and the people of Israel.

David: Mm.

Seth: Uh, when Moses went on the mountain, and he got the Ten Commandments, part of that instructions he received on the mountain was also for a tabernacle-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... where God would live with his people in the center of the community, and God- people would experience his presence and life. However, after this moment on the mountain, Moses sets up another tent that's just called the tent of meeting. It's way outside the camp, and it's only in there that Moses can ever interact with God.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so as the story goes on, we're told that Moses speaks to God face to face in that tent.

David: Yep, as one friend talks to another.

Seth: That's right, and they're contemplating and talking, and we're not told too much what happens there, but what we are told-

David: Probably 'cause it'd blow our minds. [chuckles]

Seth: Blow our minds.

David: [laughs]

Seth: But what we, what we are told is, at one point, Moses says, "God, this is great, but this is... I want more. I want to see you-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and your-"

David: Your glory.

Seth: "Your glory."

David: Yeah.

Seth: He wants to see God's glory.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then God responds, kind of paradoxically on the face of it. He says, "Well, man can't see my face and live," which is strange because they've just been talking-

David: Face to face

Seth: ... face to face. But God does say, "Well, go up on the mountain where you received the commandments at first-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and I'll hide you in a cleft of the rock. You will s- and you will see my back-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or my backside, the backside of my glory."

David: Yeah, the, the, like, like, afterglow.

Seth: Yeah, the afterglow.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "Not directly-

David: Right

Seth: ... like you're asking for."

David: Right.

Seth: "And more than what you're seeing now in face to face, but not my face."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Strange.

David: Strange.

Seth: Strange.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Moses sees this, and it's awesome.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's appreciative of the gift of grace that God has shown him-

David: Yeah [chuckles]

Seth: ... in the cleft of the rock. [laughs]

David: I love like, he's like, "God, show me your glory." He's like, "Okay, I'll show you a tiny sliver of it, and I'll hide you behind a rock." And then he makes his goodness pass by, and Moses can't even look at it. He just hits the deck.

Seth: He just falls out-

David: And just like, that's his first reaction.

Seth: Falls down. And then a- after this event, God then speaks to Moses and says to re-chisel the Ten Commandments.

David: Okay.

Seth: And he's gonna re-write down the laws that were broken previously, and so Moses does so.

David: Mm.

Seth: He's on the mountain. He's just seen God's glory. He's taken up the tablets of stone. He goes down the mountain, and he starts speaking the laws to the people of Israel. But what he doesn't realize is that his face is shining. Like, his face is literally, like, vibrant, bright.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And the people are kind of scared.

David: Freaked out by it.

Seth: [chuckles] Are, are scared by what, what they see.

David: Yep.

Seth: Uh, so Moses, after delivering the Ten Commandments, covers his face with a veil-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to hide the, the, the radiance of his face.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The, the, the afterglow of the glory, or maybe another way to say it is, like, the transformation God's glory brought about in him.

David: That's right, yeah.

Seth: He hides it.

David: God's glory was transferred-

Seth: Yes

David: ... onto Moses' face.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And just like the people of Israel didn't want to go up near the mountain or hear God-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... ear to ear, [chuckles] in a sense-

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

David: ... you know, they also didn't want to see his glory face to face, and so Moses kind of shows them-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what they've elected to do by veiling, you know, the glory from them-

Seth: That's right

David: ... as a picture of their-

Seth: Yeah, and what's in-

David: rejection

Seth: ... and, uh, we'll get to this in a second, but what's interesting in Exodus or, uh, the Exodus story, we're not told why he does it.

David: Right.

Seth: He just does it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Paul will give us a reason why he does it.

David: Yeah, Paul comments on it.

Seth: But, uh, so Moses covers his face, and then we're told that from that moment on, he- Moses keeps the veil on his face, except when he goes back to the tent of meeting and speaks to God. And then when he comes out, he keeps the veil off, and while he's in that unveiled state, he speaks to the people on God's behalf and delivers new laws or new legislation or guidance to God's people, and once he has done so, he puts the veil back on.

David: Mm.

Seth: So that's the story that Paul is about to comment on.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so I think there's a couple interesting things here. The ministry of Moses was, one, attended by a certain type of glory-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the backside of God's glory-

David: Yep

Seth: ... lit up his face in such a way-... that enabled him to speak the words of God to his people.

David: Mm.

Seth: However, after the speaking of the words, that afterglow of the glory needed to be hidden, and then he could speak to God again unveiled, but- and he could speak to the people again unveiled-

David: Mm

Seth: ... but he had to hide it. So I, I'm just like, the ministry of Moses as it relates to the glory, and the light, and all this stuff, was one of, like, simultaneously exposure-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and hiding.

David: That's right.

Seth: And there was-

David: He's simultaneously shown and veiled.

Seth: That's right, and specifically, I think this is important, and we'll maybe- we'll get to dive into it, it's when he is unveiled is when he is speaking.

David: Mm.

Seth: That's the only moment the people of Israel experience simultaneously the glory of God, like the-

David: And the word of God.

Seth: And the word of God.

David: Mm. Interesting.

Seth: Uh, so that- that's what's happening there.

David: Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, and it's interesting, too, that the veiling is in s- in some sense, and Paul's gonna pick up on this, in some sense, the veiling is a critique-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... of the people.

Seth: That's right. That's right.

David: That they were freaked out, you know, and they-

Seth: Yes

David: ... And, and it's supposed to show them this hard heart, this inability for the glory to move from Moses to them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: There's this block there. It's like a prophetic picture-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... a lived parable, that these people have veiled their hearts-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that they have, they have separated their hearts from their willingness to obey the commands that he's speaking, and so there's a covering that's happening there-

Seth: Yes

David: ... as a picture of what will continue to happen throughout the epic of the Old Covenant-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that it will continually be veiled from the ability of the glory to shine into their hearts and actually make a difference.

Seth: Yeah, as we said before, the Exodus story doesn't say that-

David: Right

Seth: ... but Paul says this, which I think is what you're saying here. He says this in verse, uh, 13, "We are not like Moses, [chuckles] who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end because their minds were hardened."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Paul's making an interpretive statement as to why Moses covered his face, and he says it's because they har- their hearts were hardened.

David: Right.

Seth: And in that story, in the Exodus narrative, we, we see it played out.

David: Yeah.

Seth: God is on the mountain. He's shown up in fire and smoke, and he's speaking to Moses and the elders of Israel, and the people of God have hardened themselves in a way that they cannot wait. They can't even wait for the delivery of God's law.

David: Mm.

Seth: And we're also told they don't wanna go on the mountain in the first place.

David: Right, yep.

Seth: So they're-

David: They have, kind of, self-inflicted a veil.

Seth: The... Yeah, there, there is a sense in which they don't want to approach the God who would give them a law-

David: Mm

Seth: ... nor do they want to wait for that law-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to come to them and transform their behavior.

David: Right.

Seth: So I think what Paul is doing here, he's interpreting that set of facts.

David: Mm, mm.

Seth: It's like, God was on the mountain. There was an invitation to come close. They denied the invitation.

David: Right.

Seth: They did not wait for the law. So what is happening there? It's like, their hearts were hardened.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And because of that, Moses hides his face as, like, an indictment of what this relationship with God will mean.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so Paul says it twice, actually. He says, "That they might not gaze at the outcome-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of what was being brought to an end." And then in verse 7, he says it this way. He says, um, "The Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Paul seems to understand the, the laws that God gave Moses had this built-in end date to them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Part of the reason it has a built-in end date is because of that resistance and blindness of the hearts of the people who refused to enter into the covenant when it was available to them.

David: Mm.

Seth: Does that make sense?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, is that, is that... I think I'm-

David: Yeah, and also-

Seth: ... snipping close to the, the-

David: That he's also trying to highlight the ineffectiveness of the law written with chisel or ink on stone or parchment.

Seth: Yes.

David: That there's something external, almost... I don't, I don't mean this in a derogatory way-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... about the law at all, but earthly, earthen-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... like, it's written-

Seth: Yeah, he-

David: ... externally.

Seth: Yeah, maybe this is helpful to just go on what he says here.

David: Yeah, yeah.

Seth: He says, "Now, if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone..." Uh, he, so he describes the covenant God made with Moses-

David: Mm

Seth: ... as a ministry of death. He goes on and calls it a ministry of condemnation.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then he says, "It's a ministry that's being brought to an end."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So, so I think you're exactly right. There is something about this ministry that cannot bring about the transformed people that can live with their God forever.

David: Right. Therefore, in order for God's purposes to be completed in the world-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... this version of the covenant has to be superseded by something better.

Seth: It has to, yeah.

David: And this m- this, this covenant's good.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It was in- attended by glory.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? That's what he's, he says.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The, yeah.

Seth: "Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on, on stone, came with such a glory-

David: Right

Seth: ... that the Israelites couldn't gaze in the face of Moses because of that glory-

David: Huge glory

Seth: ... and that glory was being brought to an end, by the way-

David: Right

Seth: ... but will not the ministry of the Spirit give even more glory?"

David: Yes.

Seth: "For there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness," i.e., the one where people are able to do the things-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the law requires.

David: Actual transformation.

Seth: "Must far exceed it in glory."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then he goes on, "Indeed, in this case, what once had glory, had come to have no glory at all because of the glory that surpasses."

David: And I guess here, he's still... We have to remember, he's still comparing his ministry as an apostle to the church in Corinth, to the ministry of the super apostles, the false apostles.

Seth: That's right.

David: And he's saying that,

David: "Let's, let's, uh, let's just- let's play the game-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... that their apostleship had some glory to it."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: ... but it's just like the letters of stone, they have letters of recommendation.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And no matter how glorious you might think it be, it is.

Seth: That's right.

David: Because think of the Moses one, really glorious-

Seth: Yes

David: ... attended with tons of miracles, and signs, and speech, and wonderful things.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But the ministry of Jesus, who died and rose, has surpassed it.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: So has his apostle.

Seth: Yes, and pr- and especially if these false apostles are of some, like, like, stripe of, of Jewish-

David: Yeah, Judaizers or something.

Seth: Ju- Judaizer-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... false, false teachings, like... And they're bringing you back to something that didn't accomplish-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the end for which it hoped for-

David: Right

Seth: ... the holiness of God's people, the salvation, the life of God's people.

David: That's not where you're gonna find life.

Seth: That's not where you're gonna find life.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's gonna be in the new covenant marked by the Spirit.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yep.

Seth: So he says this in verse 12: "Since we have such a hope," namely, that there is this glorious, permanent, life-giving, righteousness-bringing, new covenant, carried o- on the wings of apostles who have been made sufficient by the resurrection power of Jesus.

David: Whoo!

Seth: There we go.

David: There we go.

Seth: Landed the plane [chuckles].

David: Let's go.

Seth: "Because of that, we are very bold."

David: Mm.

Seth: Or another way to translate that, we are very open, and he's-

David: Non-veiled.

Seth: Non-veiled, not like Moses.

David: Right, so those are in con-

Seth: That's right

David: ... those are in conversation with each other.

Seth: Who would put a veil over his face, so that the Israelites wouldn't gaze at the outcome.

David: We're not gonna veil this ministry.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, we're gonna open it up to you, so you can see it.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: And then he goes on to say this, and this gets into the conversation that we probably wanna have eventually.

David: [chuckles]

Seth: But, uh, he says, uh, "They could not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end," or the goal of what was being brought-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to the end, meaning the, the law of Moses. "But their minds were hardened, and to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away." So... And I think Paul might be, uh, being somewhat autobiographical here. He's like, "You know, I was a Jew-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who grew up listening to the Torah every single day, and it did not affect the change that the Spirit has affected in me-

David: Right

Seth: ... or in you, Corinthians."

David: Yep. Case in point, it's like

David: I, I read the Torah.

Seth: Mm.

David: I, I memorized the Torah.

Seth: Yes.

David: I was a Pharisee of Pharisees, and yet, when the fulfillment of the Torah came, I tried to kill it.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: Like, I was-

Seth: That's right.

David: I was not-

Seth: That's right.

David: I didn't get it.

Seth: Mm-hmm, that's right.

David: I was not obedient at all.

Seth: Yeah.

David: No matter how well I lived, I was not listening to God-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and His glory was veiled from me.

Seth: That same resistance that happened-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... when God revealed Himself on Mount Sinai was present in Paul.

David: Right.

Seth: So that neither, that he neither wanted to wait for the revelation of God-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... nor did he want to obey its law. Like, could he obey the laws?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, that, that same resistance was in him. Um, however, that veil, that hardness-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... can be taken away, he says, through Jesus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Only through Jesus is it taken away. So maybe let's talk about that.

David: Yes, what does he mean by that? Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Is Jesus just super powerful and rips the veil off? [chuckles] Like, you know, what's, what's he talking about? Or is he saying that, um, we are seeing something that we couldn't see before?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: What's happening here? 'Cause I, I'm hearing that

David: they, they could not gaze at the glory because of the veil.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But in Jesus, the veil's taken away, and my, like, immediate logical connection there is because Jesus is the revelation of God's glory.

Seth: Yes.

David: And he is very bold [chuckles]. He showed-

Seth: Yes

David: ... very open.

Seth: Yes.

David: He showed us the glory of God, and now he's given us this apostle-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... who is revealing, very boldly and openly, the glory of Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And he's like, "Look, here's God-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in Jesus Christ. No veil here."

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know? Yeah.

Seth: The other way to think about it could be that the veil... And this is, like, a, an ongoing thought of mine, so just continue to, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... dialogue with me. It's the veil functioned as the thing which prevented-

David: Yes

Seth: ... God's people from experiencing the transformation they were intended to experience.

David: Exactly right, yep.

Seth: And so only in Christ, only through Jesus-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... can the veil that prevents human hearts from becoming God's people-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that's only available through Jesus Christ. Only through Jesus can that thing be taken away, and we become the kingdom of God that God intended Israel to be in the first place.

David: Yeah, so I completely agree. I think the question I'm asking is, how?

Seth: Yes.

David: What does that mean?

Seth: Paul goes on to explain exactly how.

David: Yeah, right, yeah.

Seth: Yes, so he says, "Yes, to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts," that same-

David: How do you read a person? [chuckles] When Moses is read.

Seth: Uh, yeah, there is some-

David: Just kidding. [chuckles]

Seth: No, I mean, it's actually fascinating.

David: Yes.

Seth: Paul- like, Paul is replacing the Old Testament with Moses, the character.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Moses, the character, who veiled himself, is now the text that it is self-veiled-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and that people are self-blinding itself to.

David: Yep.

Seth: So much so, that people think there's three veils going on here. We won't get into that.

David: Whoa!

Seth: [chuckles] That is, like, another thing entirely. There's the veil... [chuckles] Never mind.

David: You said we wouldn't get into it.

Seth: Yeah, no, we won't get into it. Um, uh, but yes, there's a veil that lies over their hearts, "But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed."

David: Mm.

Seth: And that's actually a quote, a riff on-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the words of Exodus-

David: Yes

Seth: ... where-

David: When Moses would go into the tent of meeting-

Seth: Yes

David: ... he would turn to the Lord and remove his veil-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to talk to him face to face.

Seth: Yeah, that's exactly right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So whenever he would go back, he would remove the veil. So when we turn to the Lord-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... as Moses turned to the Lord-... that veil, that resistance is taken, that is taken away.

David: And yeah, and that's been a big question with me with this text is, what does Paul have in mind when he says to turn to Jesus?

Seth: [gasps] Oh, fascinating question!

David: [laughs]

Seth: So we have, um... I'm so excited about this question.

David: Well, good, 'cause I have-

Seth: I had so many notes about this, that I was like, "No, we're never gonna get to this," but-

David: I've been asking this question for years.

Seth: Oh, wow, okay.

David: And I have thoughts, but I've never had one that really settled it for me.

Seth: Okay, well, well, so there's a narratival turning. Moses-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... turned to the l- l- physically turned towards the tent.

David: Oh, I understand.

Seth: To-

David: By narratival, you mean Moses did this.

Seth: Moses did this.

David: Yeah, yeah, I get that.

Seth: At one point, he was facing away from God's presence, then he turns and goes into the tent-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to be where God is.

David: And that's when he takes the veil off.

Seth: And that's when he takes the veil off.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Okay.

David: Got that.

Seth: Okay. And in a sense, like, Paul is actually changing the words of Exodus to, to [chuckles] fit his little thing, but-

David: Uh-huh. Okay

Seth: ... we'll, we'll leave that to the side. The rest of the Old Testament will talk about turning to the Lord-

David: Yes

Seth: ... as like a metaphor for repentance-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... contrition, and the hope of the new covenant.

David: Right.

Seth: So Exodus 4:30, "When you are in distress, and all these things have happened to you," and he's talking about-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the curses of the Old Covenant.

David: Right.

Seth: In Deuteronomy 4:30, "When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you," and he's referring to, um-

David: All the curses of the law

Seth: ... all the curses of the Old Testament.

David: When they broke it.

Seth: That's right. "Then, in later days, you will turn to the Lord your God-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and obey him."

David: Ah, you'll do what Moses did. You'll turn to the Lord.

Seth: That's right.

David: The veil will be removed, and then the transformation will happen.

Seth: Yes, and in 2 Chronicles 30:9, this is said: "If you turn to the Lord, then your fellow Israelites and your children will be shown compassion by their captors." Again, this is talking about the Old Covenant curses-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... where Israel will be spread into the nations, "and you will return to this land, for the Lord your God is gracious and compassionate." Same words from the Book of Exodus to describe God's character-

David: Oh, yes

Seth: ... "and he will not turn his face from you."

David: His face.

Seth: Right?

David: Ah.

Seth: Fascinating.

David: Turn to the Lord-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and the God who Moses met and proclaimed himself to be-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to Moses on the mountain-

Seth: That's right

David: ... will show his face to you-

Seth: Yes

David: ... but he wouldn't even show to Moses.

Seth: That's right.

David: Whoa!

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: Okay.

David: So this repentance-

Seth: Mm

David: ... this returning, this, this obedience to God-

Seth: Yes

David: ... precipitates an unveiling of his glory that leads to our inner transformation.

Seth: That's right.

David: [inhales] [laughs] Okay.

Seth: And, and, a- and just to, to round out the phrase, the New Testament authors will frequently use turning as like, as a synonym for conversion-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or like coming to know Jesus and accept, accepting him.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So like, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, "You turned to God from idols-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... to serve the living and the true God."

David: Mm, mm.

Seth: So there, there seems to be this common understanding among the biblical authors that to turn is like a repentance-

David: Yep

Seth: ... especially in light of the covenant curses, towards the new covenant promises of God.

David: Yes. To, to get out of the linguistics for a second-

Seth: Yes, yes

David: ... I just kinda wa- I'm like, I love the idea of, or just the picture of conversion-

Seth: Mm

David: ... in a sense, of a turning to the Lord.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That it's a moving your face away from the dead, broken, ugly things and turning it to behold God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I think I can think of repentance and turning away from certain things to other things-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... instead of away from God and toward God himself.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Is to turn to-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to do what-

Seth: A turning to

David: ... to behold the face of God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And when we do that, he says, "Yeah, then I'll change you. I'll show you my compassion-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... I'll transform your heart through the Spirit."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, so back to Paul's argument then?

Seth: Yes, yes, yes. So, so when one turns to the Lord, so presumably when one repents, when, when one has experienced the consequences of this blindness-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... which is, you know, a further inability to [chuckles] obey the commands, you know, whatever.

David: Right.

Seth: But when you repent and turn to the Lord, he will reveal himself to you in some way.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then he goes on to say this: "Now, the Lord-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... when you turn to the Lord, now the Lord is the Spirit."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he's referring back to the Spirit of the new covenant.

David: Yeah, the Spirit of the, of the, of the letter that writes it on your heart.

Seth: That's right. The, the, the, the letter Jesus is writing on your heart with the ink of the Spirit-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to transform you.

David: Yep.

Seth: "And in him there is freedom."

David: Mm.

Seth: And so freedom, I think, here is freedom from that blindness.

David: Yeah, from the veil.

Seth: From the veil.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Freedom from the inability to be transformed-

David: Mm

Seth: ... by the thing that brought death and condemnation-

David: That's right

Seth: ... and freedom for righteousness and life.

David: Yes.

Seth: "And we now all, with unveiled faces..."

David: So, and to have an unveiled face means you have put your trust in Jesus, you've repented and turned to him-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and the Spirit is doing an inner work-

Seth: To transform-

David: ... to transform you.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: To behold him.

David: Yep, okay.

Seth: Beholding the glory of the Lord.

David: Mm-hmm, mm.

Seth: Are-

David: Which is what Moses saw.

Seth: Which is what Moses saw. Uh, he saw the backside of his glory.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so when we turn to the Lord, who is the Spirit, we experience a form of that same glory, and are therefore transformed, and we are being transformed into that same image of glory.

David: Mm-hmm, like Moses was.

Seth: Like Moses was. He became bright after looking at-

David: The brightness

Seth: ... the brightness. Um-

David: You become what you behold.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, from one degree of glory to the next, or from one glory to glory, and I think the best way to understand that is probably saying, in the sa- like, we are transformed from the glory of reading the law-... and being unable to perform it-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: -but nevertheless, experience the glory of it, to being transformed by the power of the new covenant glory-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that transforms us.

David: From a lesser glory of the old covenant to a newer glory-

Seth: That's right

David: ... a better glory in the new covenant.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: 'Cause he's not dismissing-

David: No

Seth: ... the glo- and that's been his whole contention.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, this is a glorious thing, and if, if these people are of a Jewish origin, he wants to convince them of the truth of the gospel.

David: Yeah. [chuckles]

Seth: And he's saying, "There is a greater glory, which the old covenant is pointing to."

David: Yes.

Seth: Um-

David: There's also another way, and I think the- these can both be true. Uh, there's also another way to read that from glory to glory or-

Seth: Yes

David: ... from one degree of glory to the next, is it's like instead of beholding or contemplating, that word-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... I think we, we talked about was like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... also mirroring or reflecting-

Seth: Yes

David: ... uh, w- from glory to glory. And like, when you think about a mirror, you have the, uh, person-

Seth: Yes

David: ... hu- the real person standing in front of a mirror, and then what's on the mirror is-

Seth: Yes

David: ... their reflection.

Seth: That's right.

David: And he's like, "When we turn to the Lord, the Spirit does something in us, where we begin to reflect. His glory becomes our glory-

Seth: That's right

David: ... and we begin to mirror Jesus.

Seth: In the same way that Moses-

David: Yeah, exactly.

Seth: It's, it's, it's this thing that happens when you behold the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the glorious God.

David: Yeah, and that was impossible with the veiled old covenant.

Seth: Yes.

David: It, it was unable-

Seth: Y-

David: ... to create what it commanded.

Seth: Yeah, and I, and I think this is important as we go into the next section of the text. It's like the glory of the old covenant was the backside of God.

David: Mm.

Seth: And, and as I- as we saw in 2 Chronicles, like, the promises that after the curses of the old covenant, you might see God's face.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so there, there is a sense here, like the glory that was seen by, like, the Old Testament folks, is about to be surpassed-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in a clarity by something happening in Jesus, which is-

David: That's right

Seth: ... which is the argument Paul's gonna make.

David: Yeah, that's right, 'cause he-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I mean, we can just, we don't have to bury the lead.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

David: You know, we can just say, 'cause he's gonna say that the glory of God is in the face-

Seth: That's right

David: ... of Jesus.

Seth: Yes.

David: And that I, I can tend to be a bit jealous-

Seth: Mm

David: ... of Old Testamen- Old Testament theophanies-

Seth: Yes

David: ... where people had a brush with a physical-

Seth: With a fire and a cloud

David: ... representation of God

Seth: And the voice of God, yeah.

David: It's just like, "I wish I could see that," and he's just gonna say, "Man, you have something better."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "You have the face of Jesus administered onto your heart through His Spirit-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and that's better."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it just, it, it reminds me what Jesus said when He was leaving His disciples.

Seth: Mm.

David: He says, "Oh, it's good that I go away, 'cause I'm gonna give you my Spirit."

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, how is that better?

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause there's actually something more glorious-

Seth: Yes

David: ... about the Spirit of God living in you and writing on your heart and revealing to your heart who He is-

Seth: Than seeing-

David: Than-

Seth: ... God on a mountain or even the face of the physical incarnated Jesus.

David: Yeah, it's just like, that blows my mind-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that that is more glorious.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But it's because it's not only about what you can see, which I think is a bit of Paul's point here-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that the super apostles look impressive.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But the deep work of the Spirit-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is more impressive. [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

David: You can al- anybody can look impressive-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but it's extremely impressive to actually become-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a different type of person.

Seth: And I think he's critiquing the end result of their ministry.

David: Absolutely right.

Seth: If you, if you listen to them, there's gonna be... They're going to sound impressive. They're gonna look impressive. They're gonna speak forcefully, and they're-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... gonna speak with clarity on a whole bunch of these issues as it relates to the Mosaic Law. But because they are missing the Spirit-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the only thing that they can bring about-

David: Is death

Seth: ... will be death, condemnation, death, and unrighteousness.

David: And just like the former ministry, it will, it will end, too.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It will come to an end.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: And yeah, and so will this church, if you fol- if you build your foundation on them-

Seth: That's right

David: ... I guess is a more of his point, too, is-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... he's looking at the telos, the end of all these things.

Seth: [gentle music]

Seth: And then he concludes this little section here, like, "And all this comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

David: Mm.

Seth: And so again, remember, like, the, the power of this, I think Paul's always... Like, as much as he's defending himself, he's also really conscious of the fact that he is not the ultimate agent by which people are transformed.

David: Right. "This doesn't come through me. This isn't from me. It's not because of my strength."

Seth: "I'm a messenger of it-

David: Yep

Seth: ... a conduit of it, in a sense, but I am not the one."

David: That's right. This comes from the Spirit.

Seth: This comes from the Spirit.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, and so therefore, having this ministry, by the mercy of God, we don't, w- we do not lose heart. [chuckles]

David: Which reminds me of everything we talked about in the last episode.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I think Paul had a lot of reasons to lose heart. [chuckles]

Seth: Well, I think that's exactly what-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... he's talking about here. Yeah, that's right.

David: [chuckles] Just like, he got beat up after beat up after beat up.

Seth: Yeah, "I'm being attacked by my friends. I'm being attacked by false apostles. I'm being attacked by people in Macedonia."

David: In Macedonia. [laughs]

Seth: Uh, like, "But because I have been given a ministry-

David: Oh, man

Seth: ... that ends in the transformation of the people of God and the fulfillment of the hopes of the old covenant in the new covenant, I-

David: I, I can't lose heart-

Seth: I have-

David: ... it's too good

Seth: ... I have hope."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "I have hope."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "We have renounced

Seth: disgraceful, underhanded ways, and we refuse to practice cunning or tamper with God's Word, but by open statement of the truth, we would commend ourselves," it goes back to that commendation, "to everyone's conscience in the sight of God."

David: Mm.

Seth: I think what he's doing here, he's now, like, going on the attack a little bit.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's like, "Guys, we have this ministry. This is what we've been given, and because this is the ministry, we don't use deception," and I think he's, like, winking and nodding.

David: "They're deceiving you."

Seth: "They're deceiving you," and he's also still playing with the imagery of Moses veiling his face.

David: Mm.

Seth: So Moses hid something-... from the Israelites.

David: Right.

Seth: And regardless of the motives of it, it was a type of hiding that prevented ultimate transformation.

David: Mm.

Seth: And in the same way, these false preachers, from worse motivations, they're peddlers of the gospel, working for money, using deceitful and underhanded ways to get people to follow them.

David: It's also interesting, I've always viewed that passage as looking at the, the super apostles, these false apostles-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... as they've got truth, but they're hiding it.

Seth: Mm.

David: And they're, they're manipulating God's word, and they're being deceitful in their message. I'm like, I think what he actually might be saying here is the super apostles are v- are veiling not the word of God necessarily-

Seth: Mm

David: ... they're veiling Paul's message.

Seth: Oh, fascinating.

David: 'Cause he's the one who's trying to bring this ministry of life, and they're trying to veil him off.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David: Like, "Nope, don't look at him. Don't trust him."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Don't listen to him."

Seth: That might be right.

David: I'm like, that's fascinating.

Seth: It's i- it's that, that's, that's compelling.

David: Mm.

Seth: Or he's critiquing their insistence upon the Jew- like, the Jewish laws-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to bring about.

David: And which is how I've always read it.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: But there might be... You know, he might be doing a double entendre thing.

Seth: Yeah, he might be d- he might be doing both those things.

David: That wink. Yeah, interesting.

Seth: And that's- yeah, that's fascinating. So we're not doing that thing, um, but we would commend ourselves to you, uh, to everyone's conscience in the sight of God, even if our gospel is veiled. 'Cause he's admitting something here. Not everybody who hears our message-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is automatically unveiled.

David: Yeah, it's, this might be hinting at one of the super apostles' critiques-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that Paul's ministry is uneffective-

Seth: That's right

David: ... in- ineffective. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, diseffective.

David: Diseffective. [laughs]

Seth: No, uh, disinfected. No. [laughs]

David: Disinfected. [laughs] But yeah, they would probably be saying, "This weak, unwell-spoken-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, persecuted human-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... comes in here, and look, people hear his message, and they don't believe him. When we come to town, with our letters of recommendation and our great orations, crowds form."

Seth: Mm.

David: You know, I don't know. I'm merely reading here.

Seth: That's right, that's right, that's right.

David: But-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's interesting to think about, like, he's saying, "Not everybody believes what I'm saying."

Seth: Yeah, and I think that's, at le- at some level, that's got to be-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... part of the critique, otherwise Paul wouldn't be bringing it up here.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "Even if our gospel is veiled," he says, though, "this isn't because of my deception. This isn't because I'm trying to hide something from you."

David: I'm open, I'm bold. Here it is. I'm not the one doing the veiling.

Seth: Yes. Yeah, he says, "It is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." So a f- a few things to take note of here. He's using the same word, perishing-

David: That he used earlier-

Seth: That he-

David: ... with the triumphal entry thing.

Seth: That's right, and where he said there, like, when w- the audience of the emperor sees-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the deaths, that will mean one of two things: I will be rejoiced, because they're on the emperor's side-

David: Right

Seth: ... or that will feel like a, a threat to them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he's, he's evoking that same imagery here. But he's also making another comparison to the Israelite generation. In the era of the Israelites, their hearts were hard-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and they could not and did not accept

Seth: God's revelation to them.

David: Right.

Seth: Similarly, here, there is a power preventing them from experiencing the power of the gospel-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that is veiling. So he's, he's making a contrast. In the Old Covenant era, when Moses was around, there was a hardening and a blindness that prevented people from s- seeing the glory, and that-

David: Mm

Seth: ... caused them to veil themselves. And even now, that same reality pertains, even when the new covenant is on the line, 'cause I think you could assume that, well, if the new covenant is present-

David: Everybody's gonna see it.

Seth: Everybody's gonna see it.

David: If God's face is just being able to be seen in Jesus's face, why isn't everybody being transformed?

Seth: That's right. It's like, and then, he's, he's saying, "That's not, that's not the case. This-

David: Yeah, well, it's like, it i- he is... He's there.

Seth: Wow.

David: There's a procession of his-

Seth: Yes

David: ... kingdom marching around.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I'm a picture of it in my own ministry as I'm being persecuted, but proclaiming him nonetheless.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Picture's right here.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But he's like, "But it's not like Moses.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I'm not putting the veil on."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "There- somebody else is."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And it's the god of this world-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is veiling."

Seth: Yeah, this was an area I wish I could have studied a little bit more.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Uh, most people understand it as a way of understanding, like, Satan or the powers. I think in understanding with, like, how Paul's comparing it to the Old Testament generation, too, I think that's probably fair. But there's also, in this Exodus story, there's a self-hardening. I think, like-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... a lot's going on in that phrase.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, but presumably, he means that there is a power actively blinding people today, just as there was a power actively blinding people in Moses's day.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And just because we're in a new covenant era doesn't mean the possibility of blindness doesn't exist.

David: Yeah.

Seth: There, that possibility remains, and the glory, in the same way that the glory of God could have been hidden in Moses's day, the glory of Christ can be hidden from people now.

David: Yep.

Seth: That's the point, I think.

David: It's interesting to think about the god of this world, you know, as the Satan-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and thinking about his original role in the Garden of Eden.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And the story is, the word of God comes- [chuckles]

Seth: Yes

David: ... and they can be with God on top of the mountain-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... beholding his glory. [chuckles]

Seth: Mm. Mm-hmm.

David: And then the Satan comes and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... hardens the heart, like, with other words-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... puts a veil up, in a sense. But the ultimate veil comes when they're exiled from-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the tabernacle, the garden-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the mountain, and the veil comes up, and they can't get in anymore.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right?

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: And they're separated from the glory.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That's kind of the same story that happens in Moses-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... where he's on the mountain-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and then the serpent thing happens again with the idolatry.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so the tent moves out.

Seth: There's-

David: And there's that exile again-

Seth: There's this veil

David: ... and that separation.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And the, and then the veil comes up-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... over the glory of Mo- Moses's face.... and so it is interesting to think about-

Seth: Yeah

David: - the repetition of the Eden story here.

Seth: That's right. Yeah, and so there's the same way that we can separate ourselves from the light of Eden-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or the, the evil one can-

David: Yes

Seth: ... separate us. The god of this age-

David: Yep

Seth: ... can, uh-

David: Lie to us.

Seth: Lie to us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Separate.

David: Obfuscate the word.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. It is interesting, you talk- I'm just thinking-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... 'cause you talked about that overlap of glory and word.

Seth: Yes.

David: And whenever the word is spoken, the glory is revealed.

Seth: Yes, yes.

David: And so if, if, if the Satan, the accuser-

Seth: Mm

David: ... was going to veil the word-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... or veil the glory, he would attack the word.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Which is what he did in the garden.

Seth: That's right.

David: "Did God really say...?"

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Da, da, da, da, da.

Seth: That's right.

David: It's, it's always his point of attack, so it's interesting to think about, well, how does the god of this world blind our minds?

Seth: Right, because we're not talk- we're talking entirely metaphorically now.

David: Yes! [chuckles]

Seth: Like, and so what does it mean to be blinded-

David: Right

Seth: ... from something that's mostly spoken, and we-

David: Yes

Seth: ... don't see? It's a spirit work. I think you're right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, the way that that works is by attacking the reve- the word-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... which is the communication of God, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the communication of God.

David: Which is just interesting, too, that that's what the super apostles are doing. They're coming with letters of recommendation, speaking-

Seth: Yes

David: ... well-orated words that are veiling Paul's ministry.

Seth: Yes.

David: And he's like, "Isn't that what Satan's always been doing?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: Thus equivocating-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the false apostles with Satan himself.

Seth: Yes, and he does this elsewhere in the book of 2 Corinthians.

David: Fascinating.

Seth: 11, verse 13, if you're looking for it. "For such people," uh, who are comparing themselves to the, to, to the true Apostle Paul, "they are false apostles, deceitful workers masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as..." He, he, he as, as an angel of night.

David: Yep.

Seth: So it's not surprising that then if servants also masquerade as servants, right?

David: Interesting. So yeah, he is saying that these false apostles are doing the same kind of work-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that Satan is doing to-

Seth: And-

David: ... hide the light of Jesus.

Seth: Interestingly, the only way... Like, practically then, the way that they are doing that is by giving a false version of the revelation-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... a false glory.

David: Yep.

Seth: Like, that is the only other... Masquerading as light-

David: Yep

Seth: ... but it's not from the source of light.

David: Yep.

Seth: So it's a false glory, a false communication-

David: Yep

Seth: ... based off of that glory.

David: And that has to mean at least two things in the context.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? One is the gospel of the apostles is one of servanthood, suffering-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and being weak, so God can be seen as the provider, comforter, sustainer, merciful one, all-powerful one.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: They're not doing that.

Seth: That's right.

David: They're saying, "We got it all together."

Seth: Yep.

David: And that's not the right-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... gospel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And then the second thing that might be on the line is if they're Judaizers-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that they're saying, "Oh, the way to receive the glory of God is through Jewish identity markers, through obedience to the old law."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, "No, that's the veiled law."

Seth: That's right.

David: "Come to Jesus." And so the-

Seth: Yes

David: ... at least those two things are being done.

Seth: At least those two things are happening right there.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So-

David: Fascinating

Seth: ... let, let's, let's go on.

David: Okay.

Seth: So Paul has just said, "People are being blinded. Uh, the god of this world is blinding the mind of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." So, like, three brand-new phrases here describe the ministry that Paul is associated with.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The light of the gospel, which already it's like this is the brightness on Moses' face-

David: Yes

Seth: ... attended by the laws and the words that he spoke. Uh, we have the glory of Christ. The only other mentions of glory we've had have been to the glory Moses experienced-

David: Right

Seth: ... at the backside of God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the glorious nature of the Old Covenant. So there's a new glory in Jesus himself.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he is the image of God.

David: Which is why he has glory. [chuckles]

Seth: Which is why he has glory.

David: Yes. [chuckles]

Seth: Uh, or it- or you could... I wonder maybe, too, if the, it goes the other way, in the sense that, like, the gospel of the glory of the Christ is mirrored or reflected in his person, as it-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the image of God. Like, the, the glory of God is imaged and seen in Jesus Christ. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure.

David: Yeah, I mean-

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, the Son is the Father. The Son reflects the Father.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I mean, yeah, now we're getting-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... pretty theological here.

Seth: Anyway. Uh, anyway, and also just the, the references to light and image should also, like, start triggering, like, new creation-type language.

David: Yes, that's right, which he's gonna totally go all in on.

Seth: And he's gonna go all in on it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like, so, "And so what we proclaim then is not ourselves..." So Paul's still like, "I'm not commending myself-

David: That's right

Seth: ... I'm not preaching about myself or my qualifications."

David: Yep.

Seth: "But Jesus Christ is Lord, with ourselves as your servants-

David: Mm

Seth: ... for Jesus's sake." Uh, which again, this is how Jesus himself defines the apostles-

David: Yep

Seth: ... as, as, as servants.

David: Yes.

Seth: "Because God said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,'" quoting the creation story, "and he has shone in our hearts." And this is, this is not metaphorical for Paul.

David: No.

Seth: Paul literally saw-

David: Saw

Seth: ... the light of the glory of God.

David: And it made him a new creation.

Seth: And it made him a new creation.

David: Yep.

Seth: Not physically-

David: Right

Seth: ... but in his heart by the Spirit, and he actually saw the face of Jesus. And he says that what Jesus gave him in that moment, what he saw-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... the light.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When he saw the light, was the light of the knowledge of the glory of God.

David: Yeah, okay.

Seth: And so, like, so that glory thing that the Old Covenant-

David: Yep

Seth: ... was about-

David: Yep

Seth: ... he saw that, the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And remember, to go all the way back to the Exodus story, the glory that Moses saw-

David: Was not the face

Seth: ... was not the face, it was the back.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And God specifically told Moses that-

David: "You cannot see my face."

Seth: "You cannot see my face."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's the end of this section of the text.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That Paul-

David: Yeah, that Paul is being like, "When we see the face of Jesus, new creation happens."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's interesting to think about-... the effectiveness argument that he's been-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: -building here, that I don't need out- external letters of recommendation-

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm

David: ... 'cause I have internal effective-

Seth: Yes

David: ... uh, like, proof-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that my message is effective, because your lives have been changed.

Seth: That's right.

David: Uh, how does that occur? Through the Spirit of the Lord.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That seems kind of fuzzy.

Seth: Yes.

David: No, it doesn't. Let me get real practical with you.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This is the same Lord who looked over-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the empty Earth, and said, "Let light shine into darkness"-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and a whole new universe was created. That's what he's done in your hearts.

Seth: Yes.

David: Haven't you experienced-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that new creation? I have, on the Damascus road! [chuckles]

Seth: That's right.

David: So have you.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That's my letter of recommendation.

Seth: That's right.

David: Deal with it, super apostles.

Seth: Yes. [chuckles] And I think the question I have had in this text-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is like, so how exactly do I see the face of Jesus?

David: Yes.

Seth: And I think what Paul is saying here is, you see Jesus when you hear the gospel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which is what Paul said... Like, this is what his ministry consists of. Just as Moses, when his unveiled-

David: Yep

Seth: ... face spoke the law, w- Paul's open, bold face speaks the gospel.

David: The gospel.

Seth: What we proclaim is not ourselves-

David: Yep

Seth: ... but Jesus Christ as Lord.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When we hear the proclamation that Jesus is Lord, that his kingdom has come, that's when and how we see Jesus.

David: Yes.

Seth: And in the proclamation of the gospel, there is a power that transforms us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh-

David: When, when the words of the gospel are spoken, we can behold the face of Jesus-

Seth: That's right

David: ... and be transformed into his glory.

Seth: Uh, yeah, and I want... That's, that's true, and I wanna say something even more powerful.

David: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: 'Cause Paul in Romans 1 will say, "The gospel," i.e. the spoken gospel-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... "is the power of God for salvation."

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: That there is something effective about-

David: About

Seth: ... the pure proclamation of it that affects the change in people, that the Mosaic law could not affect in people.

David: Ah. Yeah, and I think that is emphasized with how Paul ends the argument, because the Lord who said-

Seth: Yes

David: ... "Let light shine out of darkness"-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... words spoken affected real-

Seth: Mm

David: ... life to be created.

Seth: Moses spoke words, they brought death, condemnation. Uh, Jesus speaks words, he brings new creation.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The apostle of Jesus speaks words-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and he brings about life and righteousness.

David: Yep, and that life is written on your hearts. You've experienced it.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's very real to you.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay.

David: All right?

Seth: All right. And I think, and I think the thing that I just was, like, meditating and, like, worshiping for, just a second there, is, like, there is... Um, obviously I'm not an apostle, in the way that- [chuckles]

David: Obviously. [laughing]

Seth: ... in the way that, in the way that Paul is, this, like... You know, as- and we talked about all that, of like, what apostle is. And it's like, however,

Seth: when I preach-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the gospel-

David: The gospel

Seth: ... when I talk about the good news of what Jesus has accomplished, there is a special power-

David: Mm

Seth: ... present in the proclamation, as clumsy as it might be.

David: 'Cause you're not commending yourself, it's not you.

Seth: I'm not commending myself. Paul will say, "I'm not the greatest speaker."

David: Yep.

Seth: "I admit that." But there's something powerful about the facts and proclamation of the gospel-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that can transform people as they hear it, regardless of the messenger. [chuckles]

David: Yeah.

Seth: That feels really special.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, maybe not the center of the bullseye for Paul, necessarily, of like, making me feel psychologically better in my insecurities.

David: [chuckles]

Seth: However, it does feel good to know, and even just on a more basic level, that there is power in the message of Jesus-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... compared to any other message that could be given.

David: Yep.

Seth: So.

David: No, it's beautiful, Seth. That's so good, that... And I think about so many things

David: with that, [chuckles] obviously. I think about that phrase that we often use, where it's like, "We need to preach the gospel to ourselves."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's like, what, why? Why do I need to repeat-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what Jesus has done, who Jesus is? Why do I need to meditate on his face, his person, his character-

Seth: Mm

David: ... his actions, his intentions for the future? Because when the gospel is proclaimed to my own heart-

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

David: ... new things start to come to life in me.

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

David: And, like, death starts to fall off.

Seth: Yeah.

David: There is something very powerful, not just psychological [chuckles]--

Seth: Yeah

David: ... about preaching the gospel.

Seth: Something truly transformative.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's, it's as if God himself is-

Seth: Mm

David: ... looking over on creation and saying, "Let there be light."

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's just as powerful.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Which is crazy, and I think that's why, to land the plane-

Seth: Mm

David: ... we started this episode-

Seth: Yes

David: ... talking about, okay, this is an important passage, spoken gospel.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: This is why we go through the whole Bible-

Seth: Trying to preach about Jesus. [laughing]

David: ... trying to preach the gospel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we, now, we get, we get there because of, like, the Emmaus road-

Seth: Yeah, and-

David: ... story

Seth: ... and, uh-

David: Which we've talked about elsewhere.

Seth: The Ethiopian eunuch.

David: And the Ethiopian eunuch.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But... And that, that's the, like, well, what gives us the right to see Jesus in all of Scripture?

Seth: Yes.

David: But why is it so desperately important?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's because if we don't, we miss this proclamation of, "Let there be light," into-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the hearts of people, that there's power in the gospel-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that it actually will transform-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... wherever it's spoken.

Seth: There's l- yeah, Paul, like, makes a really strong contrast early on, and at, at the very end, between the written-

David: Yep

Seth: ... stuff.

David: Right.

Seth: The letters of recommendation, the written letter of the Old Testament, and the work, the s- the work of the Spirit, and the words of-

David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Seth: ... God himself, but also the apostles. And so, like, there's a real sense that there is a living spirit's-

David: Yes

Seth: ... word, proclamation. Like, there's like a... That thing is what affects us-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in a way that-... and I, I wanna be careful with how I word this, but Paul seems to say, like, there is a sense in which the Old Testament,

Seth: on its own, does not achieve the ends for which it hopes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like-

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, right?

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, that, like... And there is something about the new covenant thing that Jesus has done, and the Spirit, that illumines-

David: It unveils the Old Testament for what's really there.

Seth: Yes. That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I get there from other places in Scripture-

David: Yes

Seth: ... but I think Paul is doing something here-

David: He is, yeah

Seth: ... by quote, like, he's giving us an example-

David: Yep

Seth: ... of what it looks like to read the Old Testament with these new eyes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, the eyes of the Gospel.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's like, when Moses turned to the Lord, something happened.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It, glory was seen.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But isn't this something like the way that when we turn to Jesus, we are transformed as well?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And as glorious as the Old Testament was when they turned to the Lord and experienced miracle after miracle in the Old Testament-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... all this cool stuff-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the Old Testament, heroes of faith-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... from that glorious turning, it doesn't compare to what was hoped for in the prophets-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of a transformed heart-

David: Right

Seth: ... empowered by the Spirit. Anyway, like, that's the-

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Man, okay. That is 2 Corinthians.

Seth: That... Yeah, at least those t-

David: And those-

Seth: Chapter and a half. [laughing]

David: Yeah. At least those are the two conversations we're gonna have about it, the introduction and this one.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: Well, awesome. Thank you for that, Seth. Thank you to Christine for all her help here as well, and thank you for listening and being with us, joining us here on the Spoken Gospel podcast. We will see you next time.

David: [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

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The Unveiled Face: How Beholding Jesus Transforms Us in 2 Corinthians 3-4

Show Notes

The Triumphal Procession and the Nature of True Apostleship

Letters of Recommendation and the New Covenant Reality

The Ministry of Moses and the Glory That Fades

Turning to the Lord and Unveiled Transformation

The Light of the Gospel in the Face of Jesus Christ

Related Resources

Introduction to 2 Corinthians

View our devotional on 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:11

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the 2 Corinthians Overview: What is an Apostle? podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians: The Unveiled Face podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 6: Do Not Be Unequally Yoked podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 8-9: The Economics of Generosity podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 11-12: Paul's Thorn in the Flesh podcast