Spoken Gospel podcast with a photo of David and Seth

2 Corinthians 8-9: The Economics of Generosity

About This Episode

Paul spends two entire chapters in 2 Corinthians asking for money, which seems to contradict his earlier insistence that he never charged the Corinthians for his ministry. Seth and David explore Paul's teaching on generosity and show how he reframes giving as participating in God's miracle of provision and proving the genuineness of our faith through Christ-like sacrifice.

Listen Now Read Show Notes

Listen On

Apple Podcasts Youtube Spotify

The Economics of Generosity: How Giving Transforms Us and Others

Show Notes

In this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, hosts David and Seth dive into 2 Corinthians 8-9, exploring Paul's teaching on generosity and financial giving. What emerges is far more than a standard sermon on tithing—it's a profound theological exploration of how generosity tests our faith, reflects the Gospel, participates in God's mysterious provision, and ultimately produces a harvest of eternal significance.

The Collection for Jerusalem and the Corinthian Reluctance

Paul's discussion of money in 2 Corinthians comes with an important distinction from the rest of the letter. Earlier in 2 Corinthians, Paul made a significant point about never charging the Corinthian church for his ministry. He worked as a tentmaker and relied on other churches to support his missionary work rather than burden the Corinthians financially. This became a distinguishing mark between Paul and the "super apostles" who were peddlers of God's Word, profiting from their teaching.

However, 2 Corinthians 8-9 addresses a different matter entirely. Paul was on a campaign to collect resources from Gentile churches throughout the region to send to the persecuted and impoverished Jewish believers in Jerusalem and Judea. These believers had been cut off economically from their families and communities because of their faith in Jesus, leaving them with very little to share even among themselves. This was a relief effort, not funding for Paul's missionary journey.

The complicating factor is that the Corinthians had already committed to contributing to this fund over a year prior. Verse 10 of chapter 8 makes this clear: "A year ago you started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it." Something had changed. Whether through the influence of false teachers, the pull of their own greed, or the broader Corinthian culture of wealth accumulation, the church had become reluctant to follow through on their commitment. Corinth was a wealthy port city, a rebuilt Roman colony with significant economic advantages over the surrounding regions. Greed was, in many ways, woven into the fabric of Corinthian society, and now Paul had to address why their generosity had stalled.

The Macedonian Example and the Test of Genuine Faith

Paul begins his appeal by pointing to the churches in Macedonia—a much poorer region experiencing severe persecution. Despite their "extreme poverty," these believers came to Paul begging for the opportunity to contribute to the relief effort. The word Paul uses for "begging" is the same term used elsewhere in Scripture for those who beg for alms. The irony is striking: the poor were begging to give, while the wealthy Corinthians were holding back.

This comparison carried significant weight in the honor-shame culture of the ancient world. When guests arrived, it was customary to lavish them with hospitality as a display of honor and wealth. Paul and Titus were coming to collect the contribution, and the Corinthians were at risk of being shamed by having nothing prepared while their poorer neighbors to the north had given abundantly. Paul was, in essence, poking at their cultural values: "If you want to show off, here's your opportunity—be generous."

But the deeper point goes beyond cultural honor. Paul explains in verse 5 that the Macedonians "gave themselves first to the Lord, and then by the will of God to us." Their generosity flowed from a prior commitment—they had surrendered their entire lives to God. Because they belonged to God completely, they listened for His will and responded when they heard about the need. The inverse is sobering: if the Corinthians were not being generous, it raised questions about whether they had truly given themselves to God at all. Their wavering commitment to the collection became a test of whether they had genuinely yoked themselves to Jesus.

Generosity as Gospel Reflection

Paul then grounds his appeal in the Gospel itself. Verse 9 of chapter 8 declares: "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich." Generosity is not merely a good deed or moral obligation—it mirrors the very shape of the Gospel. Jesus possessed infinite riches in glory yet emptied Himself, taking on poverty through His incarnation and death, so that spiritually impoverished sinners might receive the wealth of salvation, righteousness, and eternal life.

When believers give generously, they are not earning their way into God's favor. Rather, they are proving that they have already experienced His transforming grace. Generosity becomes evidence of genuine conversion. Paul says he wants to "prove the earnestness of your love" through this act of giving (2 Corinthians 8:8). It's a test that reveals the heart—not to condemn, but to demonstrate that the Corinthians truly belong to Jesus.

This is why generous giving is not manipulation when called for by faithful teachers. The story of a woman who became convicted of materialism and subsequently downsized her home, paid off debt, and quit her job to prioritize her family illustrates this beautifully. No one hearing that testimony would accuse her of trying to buy her salvation. Her generosity proved the genuineness of her faith and brought freedom to her life. Greed produces death—debt, overwork, distance from loved ones. Generosity produces life and flourishing. It is both the evidence of Christ-likeness and the pathway toward greater Christ-likeness, actively fighting the vices of consumerism, hoarding, and self-centeredness.

The Miracle of Redistribution

Paul quotes Exodus 16:18 to illustrate God's design for provision among His people: "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack." This refers to the manna in the wilderness, where God commanded each person to gather only what they needed for the day. Some gathered more than their share out of greed, while others gathered less—perhaps due to disability, circumstance, or the greed of others taking too much. Yet at the end of each day, everyone had exactly what they needed.

Something mysterious happened in the redistribution. God was performing a miracle that defied the natural order. Those with too much found themselves with exactly enough, while those with too little discovered their needs were met. God was the original generous operator among His people, ensuring equality and fairness without anyone going lacking.

Paul invites the Corinthians—and all believers—to participate in this same miracle. The natural order of the world operates on the assumption of scarcity and hoarding: what I earn is mine, and I must protect it. Generosity breaks that natural order. When believers take from their abundance and give to those in need, they join God in His Eden-creating, bread-providing work of ensuring everyone has what they need. Through Scripture, from the Garden of Eden to the manna to Jesus teaching us to pray "give us this day our daily bread," God consistently reveals His desire that His people have what they need. Generosity is one of the primary mechanisms through which He accomplishes this within the community of faith.

The Economics of Sowing and Reaping

In chapter 9, Paul shifts to agricultural imagery to reframe how believers should think about generosity: "Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully" (2 Corinthians 9:6). The key insight is that money is not fruit to be hoarded but seed to be planted. A farmer would never stand in a field clutching seeds, reluctant to let them go. That would be absurd—and it would leave the farmer poor. The farmer knows that the seed in hand is essentially worthless compared to the harvest it will produce. The value is not in keeping the seed but in scattering it abundantly.

This is why "God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7). The cheerful giver understands the economics of the Kingdom. They are not giving reluctantly or under compulsion as if losing something precious. They are planting with anticipation, knowing that what grows will far exceed what was sown. The woman who downsized and made less money discovered she had more freedom, more time with her children, and less stress from debt. Through making less, she became genuinely wealthy in the things that matter. The cross is true: through poverty comes wealth, through death comes life.

Paul also expands the concept beyond financial treasure. Time, talent, and treasure are all seeds believers can sow. Some may not have much money to give but can offer their time to visit the grieving, help a neighbor move, or serve those in prison. Others can give their talents—skills and abilities that bless those who lack them. And treasure includes not only money but assets of all kinds. The call is to recognize that everything we have can be scattered generously into the lives of others with the expectation of a harvest.

The Harvest of Thanksgiving and Prayer

The critical question remains: what exactly is the harvest? Paul answers in verses 11-15 of chapter 9, and the answer is stunning. The harvest is not more money returning to the giver—though that sometimes happens. The harvest is people giving thanks to God, prayers being offered, and the glory of God spreading.

Paul writes that generous giving "will produce thanksgiving to God" (2 Corinthians 9:11). Those who receive the gift will glorify God because of the Corinthians' obedience to the Gospel. They will pray for the givers "because of the surpassing grace of God upon you" (2 Corinthians 9:14). The harvest is eternal—human beings who know Jesus, communities of faith strengthened, and praise ascending to God across the world.

This is why Jesus spoke of "treasures in heaven" that are incorruptible and last forever. Those treasures are people walking around in the new creation, souls that came to know God partly through the generosity of believers who planted seeds in faith. Greed stagnates and produces nothing—just a pile of dead seeds that never become anything. Generosity multiplies, creating waves of thanksgiving, prayer, and Gospel proclamation that extend far beyond what the original giver could have imagined. The Corinthians' contribution would not just meet physical needs in Jerusalem—it would produce a harvest of praise that echoed into eternity. Every act of generosity, given cheerfully and in faith, participates in this same cosmic multiplication of thanksgiving to the God who gave His inexpressible gift in Jesus the Messiah.

Transcript

David: [mellow music] This is what genuine Christians look like.

Seth: Yes.

David: And genuine people who've given themselves to me and to Jesus, they do these things. Do you look like that?

Seth: Okay. Yes.

David: And, and, and, and the reason why I wanna do this is not so you go, "No, we don't. We suck." No, I'm doing it to prove the earnestness of your love, which is why what he said before is not manipulative, but true.

Intro: [mellow music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [mellow music]

David: Welcome, everybody, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our little special look at some highlighted passages inside of 2 Corinthians. Last time, we looked at the phrase "unequally yoked"-

Seth: Unequally yoked

David: ... and learned that it was not about marriage.

Seth: And it was. [laughs]

David: And it was about marriage. [laughing]

David: And then today, we're gonna look at 2 Corinthians 8 and 9. We're talking about money today. So-

Seth: Money.

David: Hot topic.

David: Money. Not the store that... where you can spend money. The store Hot Topic. [laughing]

Seth: The Hot Topic. [laughing]

David: The Hot Topic.

Seth: I haven't thought about Hot Topic-

David: [laughing]

Seth: ... in a decade. [laughing]

David: For our, for our non-US listeners, or anyone above the age of 18, Hot Topic is a goth store in the mall. [laughing] I don't know how to describe it.

Seth: Only in the mall.

David: Only in the mall.

Seth: It's only in the mall.

David: It's not as... You don't... It's not next to a Hobby Lobby or something. [laughing]

Seth: There's no, there's no just, like, freestanding Hot Topic.

David: Freestanding Hot Topic. [laughing] Uh, so we're gonna talk about money. We're gonna talk about generosity, um, and, uh, look at Paul's really unique way of pleading with the Corinthians-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... for generosity. Um, which brings up to me a lot of things about, like, manipulation in the church-

Seth: Sure

David: ... around money-

Seth: Okay

David: ... which I just wanna talk about.

Seth: I, I-

David: Um, and then next week, we'll look at thorn in the flesh-

Seth: Great

David: ... third heaven stuff.

Seth: Right.

David: But today, it's 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, money talks.

Seth: Okay.

David: What's coming into your head as we open this?

Seth: I mean, the thing that I know about 2 Corinthians is that Paul makes a big deal about not asking the Corinthians for money earlier in the letter.

David: And again later? He... Yeah, he does it a couple times, yeah.

Seth: So, so it's like, it's fascinating to me that there is such a pronounced emphasis on generosity-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when Paul made it kind of a, like, a pillar of his ministry among the Corinthians not to ask them to be generous towards him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, so I've got that in my- the back of my head, and just wondering, like, does that mean he- Paul was not, like, asking for money at all during the time-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... that he was with them?

David: It's a good question.

Seth: And then when this thing with the Macedonians comes up, uh, like, this is his first time to ask for money? I don't know. The, uh-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... they may be impossible questions to ask.

David: Such a good question.

Seth: But I... That's what I'm thinking.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And how, like, h- how would you make the pivot from being really firm about not accepting money, to the point that that was one of the points the super apostles were critiquing Paul for? It's like, "Any apostle worth his salt, any-

David: He charges.

Seth: Charges for money-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... anything for free, you get what you pay for."

David: Right. [laughing]

Seth: Uh, like, "You're getting what you pay for with Paul." And Paul's like, "No, it's an, an intentional choice I'm making not to be a burden and to demand generosity from the Corinthians for my, for my well-being."

David: That's right.

Seth: So that's, like, that's what I know about generosity in the Book of 2 Corinthians already.

David: Oh, that's so good.

Seth: So-

David: Well, I think let's just engage with that kind of tension right away.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So Paul, you're right, does highlight, I think a couple of times in his letter to the s- in his letter to 2 Corinthians here, um, that he has not charged them for his ministry in Corinth, that when he's come there, he's always preached the gospel free of charge to them.

Seth: Yes.

David: That he never looked to the Corinthian church to support his well-being while he was there. Uh, he would depend on other churches, um, who were supporting him as a missionary, or he would work to support himself-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and often a combination of those things. And so-

Seth: Making tents.

David: Yeah, making tents.

Seth: Making tents.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, uh, and he, and he does. He, he does that satirical, ironic boast that we talked about in the last episode-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to show that he is so different from the super apostles. And if we're talking about super apostles and false teachers, and you're like, "Wait, what's going on?" Go listen to the last episode.

Seth: Yes.

David: We set all this up. Um, and so he's doing this ironic, satirical boast again, where he's like, "I didn't even charge you for my, my services." And he, and he, he says, "May... Forgive me of this. Maybe I should have-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but I wasn't strong enough to do it." [laughing]

Seth: [laughing] Yeah, I remember.

David: And it's like, it's a joke.

Seth: It's a joke, yeah.

David: Like, he's just being so sarcastic. It's so funny. And he's like, "But I couldn't bring myself to charge you for it, because I am your father."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And kids don't support their fathers, fathers support their kids."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "So I couldn't charge you-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because you're my kids."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "And if we're going to Disneyland, I'm paying." You know?

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: It's that-

Seth: Yes

David: ... he just couldn't do it.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so he, he makes a huge fuss, like you're, you're totally right-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... about how he gave his services to them free of charge.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, however, there is this huge passage here-

Seth: Mm

David: ... about gathering a collection-

Seth: Mm

David: ... uh, a contribution of financial resources that he asks that the Corinthians be ready to give, um, whenever his fellow teachers and himself arrive. They should have it ready-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... collected already.

Seth: What's the thing for again?

David: Yeah, so, uh, and this is different. This is not for Paul's missionary journey.

Seth: Okay.

David: Uh, Paul, um, was on a campaign to collect from not just Corinth, but lots of churches in this area-... um, a collection of resources to send to the very poor and persecuted churches in Judea, Jerusalem.

Seth: Okay.

David: So, like the Jewish churches-

Seth: Yes, that's right.

David: -that were there.

Seth: Okay, yeah.

David: Because they were super hard-pressed, cut off economically from their families, and everything like that, had very, very little to even share among themselves, and so Paul was trying to bring resources from Gentile churches over to these predominantly Jewish churches to help them in their time of need.

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

David: And so this was a relief effort collection-

Seth: Okay

David: ... not a missionary funding collective.

Seth: Okay.

David: So it wasn't for Paul's ministry-

Seth: It was for-

David: ... but for the poor Jewish believers in Judea.

Seth: Okay.

David: So that's what the collection was for. Now, before he sent this letter, and probably even before the harsh letter, most likely during his last visit or in the Corinthians' last letter that they sent Paul-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... they had committed to contributing to this fund.

Seth: That's right.

David: They had-

Seth: Where does it say that again?

David: Yeah, he, he does, um, me- mention this in, in chapter eight. Uh, first, you, you see a hint of it in verse six, "Accordingly, we urged Titus," who was gonna come and collect this-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and had visited Corinth on Paul's behalf, "We'd urged Titus that as he had started, so he should complete among you this act of grace," which we're gonna see is the taking up of resources. But then more clearly in verse 10, we hear this: "And in this matter," which is giving up your riches for the sake of the poor-

Seth: Yes

David: ... which we'll talk about, "In this matter, I give my judgment. This benefits you, who a year ago-

Seth: Mm

David: ... started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it." So they'd been a part of wanting to contribute to this fund and even contributing to this fund-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... over a year ago, and actually were wanting to do it and asking Paul to be a part of it, and now something has changed, and there is a reticence to give-

Seth: Mm

David: ... to this fund now.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so this has led scholars and commentarians-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to ask, "Why the reticence? Why the change?" And I think the most obvious thing would be-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the influence of the super apostles-

Seth: Yep

David: ... and the false teachers, or even just their own sin and the-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... Corinthian culture, all that stuff playing.

Seth: Does Paul name anything specifically?

David: Nothing specifically.

Seth: So he's just saying-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... "Hey, you said you wanted to do this-

David: "And now you're not."

Seth: ... And now you're not."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "So let's, let's-

David: Let's fix it.

Seth: "Let me encourage you to do so."

David: So-

Seth: He doesn't name one specifically-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... but we've got a whole bunch of reasons why-

David: We do

Seth: ... yeah, it might be the case. [chuckles]

David: And I think a few things that we can call out are, like, he, he says that the super apostles, who are boasting and braggadocious and well off, he s- he calls them peddlers of God's Word and, and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... kind of compares himself as working for free with them working for money.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so my guess is that the super apostles, uh, being peddlers of God's Word, people, like, selling, you know, God's Word-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... out there, trying to make a profit off of it, are like, "Hey, don't give your money to Paul, that-

Seth: That's right

David: ... poor guy out there. He's gonna misuse your money," or well, whatever.

Seth: Whatever.

David: They were sowing lies.

Seth: Yeah.

David: "And, like, keep your money here, and let's make ourselves wealthy," or whatever the-

Seth: Whatever it was

David: ... they probably wouldn't have used that language. But my guess is the influence of the super apostles-

Seth: Was

David: ... who wanted to keep the money in Corinth or for themself or for their own church-

Seth: Okay

David: ... instead of distributing the riches of Corinth to the rest of the world.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because that's another layer on this conversation-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is the difference economically and socially that Corinth had in the world versus a lot of other churches and regions in the area.

Seth: Meaning Corinth was a wealthier church than a lot of other places.

David: Big time. Yeah, Corinth was much wealthier. It, it was, um... I think it was a newer, rebuilt kind of colony in, in the Roman Empire, and they, they struggled with even their, um-

Seth: Yes

David: ... like, the getting back into Rome. There was, like, that... I remember you telling me about this.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Do you remember this?

Seth: I'm, I'm vaguely remembering. [chuckles] Uh, yes, because it, the city was destroyed because, by a Roman emperor because it became something of a competitor to Rome.

David: Yeah, it was, like, really powerful.

Seth: And then it was rebuilt and kind of had that same, like-

David: Chip on its shoulder

Seth: ... chip on its shoulder, that now that it's rebuilt, immigrant city, lots of wealth, build- building really fast.

David: It was a port city, too, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: A lot of import/export business.

Seth: It's, it's, it's, it's on an isthmus.

David: An isthmus. [chuckles]

Seth: It's- [laughs]

David: Merry Christmus. [laughing]

Seth: It's... I learned the word isthmus studying the book of Corinthians. [chuckles]

David: And you've become an expert in pronouncing it. [chuckles] So good.

Seth: [laughing]

David: Yes, so it's this wealthy city. Comparatively, they're surrounded by a lot poorer regions-

Seth: Got it

David: ... and poorer churches.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so that's actually where Paul begins his kind of polemic against-

Seth: Mm

David: ... their greed.

Seth: Okay, he talks about their greed?

David: Well, I would just say, like, that's kind of underlying.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: It's in the water.

Seth: Yeah, it's like, this up-and-coming city, massive trade center-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it's like-

David: It's, it's-

Seth: ... you can assume-

David: It is Corinthian. [chuckles]

Seth: You can assume that money is-

David: Yeah, greed is Corinthian.

Seth: Money talks, yeah.

David: For sure.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Greed is Corinthian. Um, so he says, w- this is chapter eight, verse one: "We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So he starts off with Macedonia, which is this-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... much poorer region. He says they were being extremely persecuted.

Seth: Yes.

David: They had extreme poverty, and yet they come to Paul and start begging him-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to contribute to this relief effort.

Seth: Okay.

David: Now, w- like, there's so much to point out here.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay, one, that I just love is the, the, the begging word he uses there is the same word that's used elsewhere about people who beg for alms.

Seth: [lips smack] Okay.

David: So it's like, "Oh, yeah, poor people beg."

Seth: Yes.

David: We know that, and-

Seth: These poor people were begging to give.

David: Yes! [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: It's a, it's this amazing, like, turn of phrase that he's-

Seth: Yes

David: ... playing with here, which is just-

Seth: That's cool

David: ... adds a layer of fun-

Seth: Yeah, that's cool

David: ... and irony to the whole thing. And then to, and then to bring up Macedonia, there's so much happening, right?

Seth: Right.

David: So there's an honor-shame thing here happening.... where, um, whenever you have a guest or a, you know- Mm-hmm ... like, somebody comes and visits you from afar or- Yeah ... just your neighbor- They bring gifts. You, yeah, y- yeah, you wanna lavish them. Yeah. You wanna be like, "Oh, well, let me show off my wealth to you." Yes. And so, well, now, they're, they've got Paul and Titus, and these other people coming to visit, and they don't wanna shame themselves by having nothing to show when they arrive. Sure. To be like, "Look how much we could provide!" 'Cause it's a show of honor that you have- Mm ... enough to- A ... provide for your guests. A really, like, crass way to say it would be something like, "Hey, all the believers north of you guys, all the Macedonians- Yeah ... they gave a ton of money, and you're giving nothing." Yeah. Which, uh, that's- Right ... that's what he's doing. That's, yeah. Yeah. That's what he's doing. Yeah. But, uh, uh, but yeah, for them, they're... Like, that's like a sh- honor-shame thing happening to them there. Yeah. It's like, "Oh, no, like, we've been dishonored because the poor are giving more- Yeah ... than the rich." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, "What? We, we've done something horribly wrong here." He's- Um- He's kind of poking at their egos a little bit. Totally- Yeah ... poking at their egos and their culture of being like, "If, well, if you wanna show off, I'll give you an opportunity." Yeah. [chuckles] "Be generous." "Be generous," yeah. Yeah. It's like, "You can, you can outdo the J- you can outdo the Macedonians. Just lay down your greed." [laughs] So I just think that's so fascinating. So he, he starts to do that. Um, "For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means of their own accord." Um, you know, he, he's saying they gave according to their means. Yeah. I mean, they're poor. They're- So I think he's, I think he's saying something here, where he's not giving them a dollar amount. Right. Like, "Okay, they gave this much. How much are you gonna give?" He's like, "Man, they were extremely poor- Yeah ... uh, persecuted, and yet according to that situation, they still gave generously in their own way- Yes ... and even beyond their means in their own way." Uh- So it's not about dollar amount. It's about- About heart posture- Heart posture ... and sacrifice. It makes me think of that moment when Jesus was talking about the widow- Yes ... and her two mites. Does he use that same phrase? Mm. "She gave her," uh- She gave out of her poverty, but others- Yeah ... gave out of their wealth? Is that what... Is it... I was like, I w- I was trying to remember how it was, because, like, did she- Yeah ... give according to her means? Yeah. Like, is that the word? I don't think it's means. But I was like- I don't think so, but it's the s- exact same idea. So j- 'cause he's, so he's pulling on Jesus' teaching, like they- Absolutely. They did what Jesus commanded. Yeah. And then even more than what Jesus commanded. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. And so, um, and here's why they could do that, and they [chuckles] Paul says in verse five, "And this, not as we expected..." Like, they, they weren't expecting this- Mm-hmm ... which is another jab at the Corinthians, 'cause he's gonna say, like, "We're expecting you." Yes. "We have expectations for you." Yes. "We didn't expect this crazy generosity, but here's the flow of what happened in Macedonia. They gave themselves first to the Lord, and then by the will of God, to us." So it wasn't that Paul was a great fundraiser [chuckles]- Okay ... or gave them a guilt trip. The Macedonians had given themselves to God. "Hey, God, we're all yours. Everything we have, all we are- Mm-hmm ... we're yours. We're yours 'cause it all comes from you. It's all yours. You're gonna provide for us." Mm-hmm. "You've given us your Son. You've given generously to us. We're yours now." Yeah. "So we've given ourselves to you." And then they're listening to the will of God, and they hear about this need that Paul brings up, and they're like, "Oh, man, what does God want us to give? This." Mm-hmm. And so it's not that even generosity was the focus, but the outpouring of obedience- Mm ... and giving themselves to God. So they gave themselves first to God, and then God told them to give what they did to Paul. That phrase, "gave themselves to God," w- is it, is he just saying, like, they were all in? Is that, is that- Mm ... what he's saying? Like, what, what does he... What does that mean? Yeah. Is it like they... No, they had promised, like Acts 2, and they gave all their possessions, like, that kind of thing? Oh, interesting. Or is it, like, is it, like, more like... Is he still talking about money, or is he talking about, like, just their posture towards- Yeah ... the mission of the church? They fully gave themselves- Yeah, that's interesting ... to the mission of Jesus. Yeah, I think that the, the idea of they had already given a, a, an all-in collectivist donation- Yeah ... to the church is an interesting- [chuckles] Yeah, that's not on the- [chuckles] ... exercise. Yeah. [chuckles] I haven't run into that, but that's a fascinating question. I think, though, what's happening is the, the most important gift they give is their lives to God. Okay, their... Yeah, it's like- Like- ... the, the spiritual reality is that they've given themselves- Yeah ... over to the Lord entirely. And I think that's the first and foremost gift- Yeah ... every Christian has to give, is, to go back to our, our, our episode from last, last time, they have to go under the yoke of Jesus. Mm-hmm. I've given myself to Rabbi Jesus. Yeah. Where will you lead the yoke? Yeah. Like, that's what they've done. And under the teaching of Jesus, they've seen, like, oh, part of what it means to continue to follow Jesus right now, to be all in on Jesus is- Giving out of our poverty ... is to give out of our poverty. Yeah. To the believers lives. That's how he words it here, yes. And so, um, I think this is another little jab, or at least, jab might be the wrong word, but it's at least a rebuke or encouragement to the Corinthians. Okay. The, the reason why the Macedonians were generous is that they've given themselves to God. Well, what's the inverse of that? If you're not being generous, you've not given yourself to God. Mm. So it's a test of faith for the Corinthians to say, "As your generosity wavers, it also makes me question, have you given yourself- Mm ... fully to God?" Interesting. And so it's another challenge to them. Like, "Don't forget, you've yoked yourself to Christ. Have you really given yourself to God- Well- ... if you're not giving yourself to us?" Well, yeah, well, that, that's the phrasing, "and then by the will of God to us," and what's, what's been on the line throughout the whole letter is that the Corinthians don't seem to want to grant any authority to Paul or Titus. Yeah. And so it's like they've gave themselves to God. It has... There's no money language in this verse. That's right. Yeah, it's very good. But then they gave themselves to us- Yeah ... because, you know, we're actually- The apostles ... the delegates- Yeah ... sent by Jesus himself to you. Yeah. Uh, so that is interesting. [chuckles] That is really good. If you gave yourself to God, and that God is revealed in the suffering, persecuted Jesus, he would show you that we are the ones to give yourselves to- Yeah ... 'cause we look like him. Yeah, and we are really strongly urging you to- [chuckles] ... benefit, to give some money to the- [chuckles] ... these suffering, dying saints. Yeah. It's all, yeah, all connected there. And so, uh, yeah, so he mentions, um... He starts bragging about them next. Okay. He's like, "You guys have excelled in every good work."... You, you, you, you've done so good. You, you've been great in your faith, and in your speech, and in your knowledge, and all earnestness, and in our love for you. So also see that you excel in this as well, and he calls it a grace-

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: -which is that, like, gift language.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David: And, you know, this gift of the Spirit-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, that he pulls on in First Corinthians?

Seth: Yes.

David: He's like, "There's these gifts that you love to operate in, and you're really good at them. You excel in the gifts. There's this other kind of neglected gift"-

Seth: The gift of generosity

David: ... like, the gift of gifting-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that you are, I know you'll do great. [laughing]

Seth: [laughing]

David: So I just think Paul is always so interesting-

Seth: That is funny

David: ... in his letters, where he's so good at encouraging people in different ways to follow Jesus.

Seth: And correcting them at the same time.

David: Yes.

Seth: I, I slave over text messages that are even slightly confrontational.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: And it's like, this is a sustained letter, which is very confrontational and trying to get people to do things they haven't done already. Like, I hate writing emails like that.

David: Oh, I know. It's not fun.

Seth: And Paul does it masterfully. [chuckles]

David: He does it really well.

Seth: I'm just lear-- now, I'm now... I haven't thought... I didn't come into this thinking I'd get tips for how to, like, write-

David: Better emails? [chuckles]

Seth: ... hard, better emails to people who need to be doing differently, [chuckles] but I'm, I-

David: I just think we need to start a little, like, lifestyle self-help brand-

Seth: Yes

David: ... where it's like-

Seth: Writing Emails with Paul. [chuckles]

David: Yeah, Writing Emails with Paul. Writing Better Emails with the Bible.

Seth: [chuckles]

David: You know, I just think-

Seth: I would be all in on that

David: ... Writing Emails for Dummies, with the Bible.

Seth: With the Bible.

David: Yeah, this sounds like a terrible way to use Scripture. Okay, um, now, I wanna, I wanna start to bring up, but I don't wanna land the plane-

Seth: Okay

David: ... of

David: the manipulation idea around money.

Seth: Okay.

David: 'Cause I, I, I think about this a lot when I read this passage because I have seen pastoral teaching manipulation around money to try to get congregants to give more generously to building projects or whatever-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, pastor salaries or, you know, the extreme examples of where you've got a health and wealth pastor who wants to buy a private jet.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? And the, the, the rhetoric around that

David: can, can, can be pretty abusive.

Seth: Well, and I mean, like, to read Paul cynically just for a second-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, he, I mean, how does he start? He's like, "Hey"-

David: They're giving more than you.

Seth: "They're giving more than you."

David: Yep.

Seth: "Uh, if you were really a Christian-

David: Exactly

Seth: ... you would be giving. If you re- if you were really spiritual and had spiritual gifts, then you'd be giving." So, like-

David: Yes.

Seth: That's... I, I, I don't think, he doesn't say it that way.

David: No.

Seth: But, like, cynically-

David: Yes

Seth: ... like, isn't that what h- Paul is, is re-

David: Is really, is really doing

Seth: ... is really doing?

David: So I think the crux of the matter that we have to grapple with in order to read Paul correctly but also un-cynically, [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is, it kinda starts in verse eight.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so why is Paul pushing for the Corinthians' generosity? 'Cause that's the crux of the issue.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: Because it doesn't matter if he's really trying to get them to give and really even-

Seth: For a good cause

David: ... in a holy coercion, like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... "You need to be all in on this."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because if it's for a private jet, it's a problem.

Seth: Mm.

David: If it's for something else, and holy, and benevolent, maybe it's not. So let's look at why-

Seth: Okay, okay, okay

David: ... he's asking them to give. So, "I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine."

Seth: "To prove by the earnestness of others..." Yeah, talk to me a li- little bit about that. What's the... Not a command, but what is it, though?

David: Yes, okay. So, and again, we're not gonna get every answer-

Seth: Okay

David: ... that we just asked for-

Seth: Yes

David: ... from this verse.

Seth: Yes.

David: But we're gonna start to get hints of it. So what he's doing is, he's like, "I... " It is what we set up earlier, "I wanna test the genuineness of your love for me and for-

Seth: Okay

David: ... Jesus in this. I'm gonna compare you to a genuine church-

Seth: Okay

David: ... and genuine people who still follow me. They've given themselves to me. They've given themselves to Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Look, they're giving out of their means and even more, and they're eager to do so."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Are you like that? This is what genuine Christians look like."

Seth: Yes.

David: "And genuine people who've given themselves to me and to Jesus, they do these things. Do you look like that?"

Seth: Okay, yes.

David: "And, and, and, and the reason why I wanna do this is not so you go, 'No, we don't. We suck.' No, I'm doing it to prove the earnestness of your love," which is why what he said before is not manipulative but true. He's like, "I know you've proven yourself right in your speech, and in your knowledge, and in your faith, and I know-

Seth: Mm

David: ... you will prove this grace-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and gifting true as well.

Seth: Sure.

David: So I want you to give in this way, so you can prove to yourself, and the false teachers, and Satan himself, that you are genuinely following-

Seth: Okay

David: ... Jesus and, and have given yourself to me." So it's a, it's a way for them to minister to their own hearts that they truly belong to Jesus.

Seth: Okay. [chuckles] Okay, so the reason Paul is telling them to give is so that they can be convinced of their own standing with Jesus?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay.

David: Yeah, and, and, and again, there's some weird fine lines here.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause you could easily twist that to say, "So if I give enough money, I'm a Christian?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, is now... A- are we in indul-

Seth: If I, if I-

David: ... in indulgence territory now?

Seth: If I give enough dollars, I can just, like, be okay with my salvation?

David: Right.

Seth: Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: It's like, no, no, no, this is not what's on the line here. Most likely, there's lies and, uh, Greek and pagan ideas-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and, and some of the manipulation of the false teachers, that is using money in a different way to make them question who they are, and who they are in Christ-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and what the gospel is. And it's like, "No, we're gonna use money to remind ourselves of the gospel," which is exactly what he does-

Seth: Okay

David: ... next. So he says, in verse nine, "For you know the grace..." Right? There's that word again.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake, he became poor, so that you, by his poverty, might become rich." And so-

Seth: Okay

David: ... so he's like, "Let me just show you, generosity-... is at the heart of the gospel.

Seth: Yes.

David: Generosity proves the validity of the gospel. So as you join in-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... with the shape of the gospel, Jesus being rich-

Seth: Yes

David: ... became poor, so that those who are poor might become rich. You intertwine, unify-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... become like Jesus, and prove to yourself that you belong to him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You don't buy your way into it, you prove that you already are in it.

Seth: It's... Yeah, it's not how you become a Christian, but it's, it's a, it's like, it's a test or a proof itself-

David: It's a witness to yourself

Seth: ... it's a, that you are a, a believer.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When, when you give money, you are repeating the gospel story-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the same way that Jesus gave of himself, you are giving of yourself.

David: Yes.

Seth: You know, of- okay.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I get it.

David: Yeah, and it's not only that. He's not really gonna talk about this as much, but I just wanna double-click on that idea, just in general.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, I think there's also something not only Christ-like about that, but Christ-forming in that.

Seth: Okay.

David: Because when we are generous, we are actively fighting the vice of greed. It is the antidote to consumerism, and me-centeredness-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and gluttony-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and all those other things, and those are anti-Christ.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Those are not like him, and so as we are generous, we are formed more into the image of Jesus.

Seth: Mm.

David: We pass from death to life, we pass from poverty to wealth-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... when we become like him.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so it is the pathway to Christ-likeness, not only the evidence-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of Christ-likeness.

Seth: There's this really sweet story. Uh... I'd, like, I met this woman at our, at our church recently, and she, um, became convicted of the sin of materialism.

David: Okay.

Seth: Which I was like, "Oh, cool!"

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, so like, I, I don't know, like, cynical Seth is like, "So trendy to be, like, cynical of materialism [chuckles] because it just feels like it means nothing." And so she's like: "So yeah, I, I confessed that to my, my, the ladies in my, in my group, and then, uh, we sold our house, and we downsized 1,000 square feet. Uh, we're paying off our debt faster, and then I'm going to quit my job once our debt's paid off, so that I can home-school my kids, 'cause that's what I wanna do, and the only reason I'm doing a job is because I wanted more money."

David: Wow.

Seth: And I was like-

David: That's awesome.

Seth: I was like, "Oh, you went from like s- you just, like, blew all my cynicism out of the water."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it was like-

David: It's real

Seth: ... it, it was this really powerful, like, moment, where she saw-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that genero- like, her greed was, like, leading her to a series of, like, actions that caused her to like, "Oh, that means I have to, I ha- we both have to be working, me and my husband-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in order to have the lifestyle we want." Uh, and then she was like, "No, we actually should be making less, uh, so that we don't have to be in debt all the time. We don't have to have the nice things. I'd like to spend more time with my kid." I'm like, "Oh, my gosh! That's amazing."

David: I'm so glad you brought up this story.

Seth: Okay. Okay.

David: Two things there that I just wanna double-click on. That's such a good story. Um, so number one, no one would hear that story

David: and not be able to agree with what Paul's saying here.

Seth: Yes.

David: Her generosity proves the genuineness of her faith.

Seth: Yes.

David: And they wouldn't go, "Oh, she's trying to buy her way into heaven."

Seth: Right. That's right, that's right.

David: "Uh, someone coerced her into that."

Seth: Yeah.

David: No, she heard from the Lord and was convicted in her spirit-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and is now proving the genuineness of her faith through her generosity.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, that's one thing. That's what, that's what-

Seth: Yes

David: ... Paul's point is.

Seth: Yes.

David: And I think seeing it in sh-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in a real story helps take the teeth out of the manipulation.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: The other side is just, again, this broader idea that I'm expanding. This is not quite-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... Paul's point, but I just, I'm a, I love talking about generosity.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so she's experiencing, like I was saying, Christ-likeness and freedom-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in those choices.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: 'Cause right now she's working, she doesn't see her kids as much, like, she's in debt-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... all these things. These are like death things.

Seth: Yeah.

David: These are uncreation-

Seth: Mm

David: ... hurtful, unflourishing-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... parts of her life, and she's working harder to get them. Like, she's-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... by the sweat of her brow-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... working harder to get more death.

Seth: Yeah. That's right.

David: That sucks!

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: When she's like, "I don't need as much. Let's downsize. Let's quit my job. I can be with my kids more. We can get out of debt, all by just not trying to make more money."

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: And it's like, greed is killing us-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and Jesus wants to give us life. How? Through generosity.

Seth: Generosity, yeah.

David: Generosity gives us life-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and flourishing.

Seth: And ironically, it's by making less money-

David: Yes!

Seth: ... that she's able to be most generous. [laughing]

David: Out of their poverty- [laughing]

Seth: ... they were wealthy.

David: [laughing] Yeah.

Seth: It's, it's like the cross is true or something. And so-

David: I love this topic.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, so that's what's going on here. That's the why-

Seth: Okay, yeah

David: ... that Paul's writing. It's, it's not... He's not trying to raise money. He's trying to raise Christians.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's not trying to improve the lives of the Christians in Judea who are suffering. He's trying-

Seth: Mm

David: ... to improve the lives of the Christians in Corinth, who are wealthy and well off.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And he's trying to get the, the greed out of them-

Seth: It's like-

David: ... for their own good.

Seth: It's n- it's like the, the uncynical, it's like, "You are spiritual people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and this is a great way to pursue deeper spirituality, is through generosity."

David: Sure.

Seth: Yeah, like, that's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that's like the heart behind it. Like, you, you-

David: Sure, yeah

Seth: ... we want more of this for you.

David: Right.

Seth: You wanna be more like Jesus. You love-

David: Yeah, generosity, Paul's gonna keep showing, is for the Corinthians-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... not for him.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And it's not even for the poor people he's trying to support.

Seth: That's right.

David: Like, first and foremost-

Seth: It's like-

David: ... when people give, the biggest gift they get is the giving itself, not where the gift goes.

Seth: Yeah. And, [chuckles] and in a weird way, there's, like, something selfish about it, where it's like you get the greatest benefit-

David: Yes

Seth: ... from giving.

David: That's right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Christian hedonism.

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: There it is.

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: Yeah, exactly. [gentle music]

David: So he then talks about encouraging them to finish the work that they had promised to do. We had talked about, uh, verse 10 already.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so now he's like, "So finish this work. You should do it. Uh, I want you to be ready to do it and complete what you said you would do." Uh, verse 12: "For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have."... for I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that, as a matter of fairness or a matter of equality, your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness or equality. As it is written, quote, "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, [chuckles] and whoever gathered little had no lack."

Seth: Okay.

David: This is our next topic.

Seth: Okay.

David: All right.

Seth: What- is that a verse of scripture that he's quoting there, "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever- "

David: This, this a verse of scripture, yes. [laughing]

Seth: It is- [laughing]

David: No, it is. I'm just being weird. It's, uh, Exodus 16:18.

Seth: Exodus 16:18.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay.

David: So it's the, the journey in the wilderness-

Seth: Okay

David: ... with the manna and everything.

Seth: Oh.

David: Yep.

Seth: Okay.

David: The gathering up of manna.

Seth: Okay.

David: So he's saying... He, he's trying to talk about what God is accomplishing in his people through generosity.

Seth: Okay.

David: So he's like, "I want you guys to, to do this work. I want you to, to, to give it, because there's a miracle and a mystery that happens in generosity."

Seth: Okay.

David: The goal is not that, "Oh, you wealthy people, you guys should suffer so other people can be wealthy."

Seth: Okay.

David: Uh, that's not the, that's not the goal.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: The goal is fairness or equality-

Seth: Okay

David: ... so that there would be an evenness among the body of Christ.

Seth: That everybody has what they need.

David: Everybody's needs are provided for.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's like what we... Like you mentioned earlier-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what we saw in, in Acts 2-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... is everybody gave, and everybody's needs were met.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, that's the goal. But here's the fun part.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay, so this is the m- this is why you... This is... Generosity, uh, cr- recreates the miracle and the mystery of God.

Seth: Okay.

David: So this is what I wanna explore with you.

Seth: Okay.

David: And I don't have it all fleshed out.

Seth: Okay.

David: I, I wanna, like, explore this.

Seth: Okay, okay.

David: So, okay, so let's look at the man in the wilderness story and this quote here.

Seth: Okay.

David: Because as we looked into it, there's just general consensus about what was happening here that I have never heard before. [chuckles]

Seth: Okay.

David: So you have this idea, whoever, whoever gathered much had nothing left over.

Seth: Yes.

David: Whoever gathered little had no lack.

Seth: Yes.

David: Huh? How?

Seth: Yeah.

David: You have somebody-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... hoards it up in greed-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and, and f- gets more than they need for the day. God said, "Go out. You, you can get an omer-

Seth: Yes

David: ... per person," I think is what it was.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And you... It's a weight, a weight measurement, "So get that, take that back. Anything left, you're not supposed to do. Worms will eat it up. It's gonna be terrible," that whole thing.

David: But some people didn't listen-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and in greed, they gathered more than they needed.

Seth: That's right, and then-

David: But then other people, maybe because of the greed of others or because of their humility or their... Maybe it's, maybe they were lazy.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Maybe they didn't get out and get in the field.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Maybe they just couldn't... Maybe they were physically disabled, and they couldn't do it.

Seth: Okay.

David: I don't know, for whatever reason-

Seth: Whatever

David: ... they couldn't get enough. They couldn't gather enough for the day. And yet, at the end of the day, whoever gathered too much had exactly the same as those who gathered-

Seth: Mm

David: ... too little.

Seth: Okay, so there's a miracle happening-

David: Yes

Seth: ... at the a- i- in the manna stories that I might have mis- missed.

David: Same.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I missed this up until a week ago.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. I, I just-

Seth: That's fascinating, 'cause-

David: I, I, I think I've always read this verse. I don't know how it even logically made sense to me, 'cause I've always read this verse just thinking like, "Oh, those who gathered much just scraped it off the top, and those who gathered little picked it up off the ground."

Seth: Right.

David: I have no idea how I thought this happened.

Seth: Well, yeah, and I guess I... I've been assuming, too. It's like, well, I kn- 'cause people did keep too much-

David: Yes, they did

Seth: ... and it, it spoiled.

David: Yes.

Seth: So whatever this verse is talking about-

David: It's not that

Seth: ... it's not keeping so much that you're trying to have leftovers, so presumably not greed. But I guess my mind just like... They... I read it as they gathered the appropriate amount.

David: That's how I read it, yeah.

Seth: And, like, if they kinda missed it by half a cup, God filled their bellies, you know, that kinda thing.

David: Everybody got what they need.

Seth: Yes.

David: And, like, there's... And again, the mechanics of the mysterious miracle, it's a mystery.

Seth: It's a mystery.

David: We're not told how it happened. Like, is it a loaves and fishes thing-

Seth: Yes

David: ... where as they kept pulling out manna, more came, or as they got to the bottom, they realized that one piece of manna got stuck, and the bottom half was empty? [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, we don't know the mechanics-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of how this happened, but I think the idea that Paul is pulling on here and why he mentions this story is God was doing the miracle of redistribution.

Seth: Okay, yeah.

David: So he was taking those who got too much-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and mysteriously giving it to those who had too little, and that God was the original generous-

Seth: Mm

David: ... operator among his people to make sure that everybody's needs were care- were, were met.

Seth: Okay.

David: And he did it how? By taking the abundance of the wealthy and giving it to the lack of the poor.

Seth: Mm.

David: Not so that somebody else's basket wasn't full, and they had everything they needed.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: No, everybody had everything they needed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But it's so there was fairness, so there was equality-

Seth: Yes

David: ... is the, is the word he uses here.

Seth: Well, so is, is the miracle that God, like, secretly siphoned some from one-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or... Well, 'cause I was like, I think-

David: That's my, that's my guess.

Seth: I was like, 'cause I was like, I think, 'cause you have, like, uh, other miracles where you just have enough-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... miraculously.

David: It just kind of keeps appearing.

Seth: It just-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it's like p- people who, like, ha- brought too much poured everything into the, the, the, into the basket, and it produced one loaf of bread. And people who-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... did less had the same size of a loaf of bread. Voila! Like-

David: Voila. [chuckles]

Seth: [chuckles] But, uh, it, it's interesting to think about that God might have been siphoning-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... things. [chuckles]

David: And the only reason... I think there's other reasons to think about it internally in the story, but we, we won't get into that. J- just thinking about First Corinthians here, that is the point Paul is making-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is a redistribution-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... from the rich to the poor.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so then he mentions that you have full baskets and empty baskets, and yet there's equality.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And so it does kinda seem-

Seth: Interesting

David: ... like he's, you know, reflecting and meditating on this story, being like, "I wonder if God did some kind of redistribution, siphon miracle here?"

Seth: Yeah, interesting.

David: And so what I think is cool about that is not only does it say, "Look, in the people of God, in the Kingdom of God, in the Church of God, God's people are to be cared for through the generosity of each other."

Seth: Yes.

David: "No one should be needy in the church-

Seth: Yes

David: ... because you're surrounded by people who are w- more than willing and eager, begging-... to give out of what they have-

Seth: Yeah

David: -to help others.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause that's what Jesus did.

Seth: It is- it's very clear in the page of the scripture that God wants his people to have whatever they need.

David: Yes!

Seth: That's Genesis, the Garden of Eden.

David: The Garden of Eden.

Seth: You've got-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the manna, only take what you need for the day.

David: Yep.

Seth: Uh, you've got Jesus, "Give us this day our daily bread."

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's the same thing here, like, God wants his people to have what they need, and one mechanism for doing that is through the gener- is-

David: Through generosity

Seth: ... is through generosity.

David: That's right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it, it, it shows, like you said, the story of the Bible-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... God's heart for his people.

Seth: Yes.

David: What I think is cool, too, is it, it invites us, or the Corinthians, whoever, into the miracle of generosity. That in giving, we actually enter into this

David: miracle in the world that does something that the natural order doesn't do.

Seth: Mm.

David: Uh, and so, like, like, I think that's what a miracle is. That's why I like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... calling it a miracle.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Because miracles do something else outside the natural order of things.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's how we kinda define miracles.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so how did this bread get siphoned?

Seth: Yeah.

David: It was a miracle.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We don't know.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It defies logic. It defies the-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... natural order of things. It, whether it was all done-

Seth: People who have more should have more.

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: Not the same as people who have, uh- [laughing]

David: Conservation of mass-

Seth: Yeah. [laughing]

David: ... is a natural law, and this breaks the conservation of mass.

Seth: [laughing]

David: And so there's a miracle that happened in, in the siphoning.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so here, in generosity, we get to perform that miracle-

Seth: Mm

David: ... where there's a conservation of mass principle operating as the assumption of the world in greed.

Seth: Mm.

David: I make it, it's mine.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's my basket! I filled it up.

Seth: Mm, yeah.

David: You don't get it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's mine. It stays with me, and I'm gonna hoard it up over here, and, and it-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... goes to my kids, and then it's... and finally-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... until it's gone.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well, no, we get to be part of a miracle of doing something against the natural order of greed-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the earthly way of the world-

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

David: ... in taking our wealth and putting it in places where there is less and there is lack.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And in doing that, we join God-

Seth: Mm

David: ... in his Eden-creating, bread-providing miracle-

Seth: Mm-hmm, yeah

David: ... of making sure everybody has what they need.

Seth: Everybody has what they need.

David: It's just, what an invitation!

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: I just think it's such a sweet invitation from Paul-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to join God in the mysterious miracle-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of the wilderness.

Seth: And I don't think in my

Seth: 20-something years of attending churches, hearing sermons about giving, I've ever heard anybody make a sermon about giving from the Book of Exodus-

David: Yeah!

Seth: ... in this particular passage.

David: This is it.

Seth: And Paul's like, "Now, this is the proof text-

David: Yeah, that's so good

Seth: ... that you should be generous." I'm like, "How- what?" [laughing]

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, I would not have... I'm not meditating-

David: I'm not

Seth: ... on that text-

David: No

Seth: ... the way Paul was. [laughing]

David: This dude is a deep meditator. Okay, we've got to move on, I suppose. Verse 16: "But thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same earnest care I have for you." So he is now going to... I'm not gonna read this whole thing. He is going to now talk about how, um, Titus and others are traveling to come to the Corinthian church-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and take up this collection. And again, this is the same thing we talked about earlier-

Seth: Yes

David: ... where there's this impending shame moment-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... waiting for them-

Seth: Yes

David: ... if they do not get themselves ready.

Seth: Yeah, this moment of testing is coming.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Moment of testing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, which is a good way to think about it-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because, uh, we might as well just go here since we're here.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause I think this is, this is a, a crux of the idea here, especially for us at Spoken Gospel, thinking about it, is you have this paradigm being set up that

David: the apostles of God are coming to the church, so ready yourself so that you're not ashamed that they're coming.

Seth: Okay.

David: This sounds like something. [chuckles]

Seth: Yes.

David: Right?

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: It's like we're told to be ready for the groom's return-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... so that we are not ashamed at his coming-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but are clothed and ready-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... you know, for the weight-

Seth: Yes

David: ... of glory and all that.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so I just, I think it's a fascinating way that Paul maps his missionary journey-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... onto the eschatological journey-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of Christ, to say, like, "My arrival to your church is a foreshadowing of Jesus's arrival to the world. If you can't be ready for mine, how will you be ready for Jesus's?"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Get ready."

Seth: Yeah.

David: I just think it's a pretty powerful warning.

Seth: It is a pretty powerful warning, and Paul is, like, comparing him- has compared himself to Jesus multiple times already.

David: Multiple times in his suffering, yes.

Seth: Yeah, which is... I mean, I guess he gets to do that as an apostle.

David: [chuckles]

Seth: I was like, [laughing] oh, yeah, I'm like, there's a, there's, there's, there's some gutsiness to th- this move. It's like, yeah, and in the same way that you should be- have an appropriate level of fear of Jesus coming, you should have an [laughing] appropriate level of fear of mine.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's kind of a, a wild- [laughing]

David: Yeah

Seth: ... thing to say, but I think it do- that does seem to be what he's doing here.

David: It is, and he's gonna talk about that later, that he, he sometimes comes in meekness and weakness, uh, and that's how he prefers to come. But he'll say later, he's like, "But I come with the power of the resurrected Jesus." And honestly, not 'cause he's anything special, but because he has the Holy Spirit in him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And when the Holy Spirit comes into an unclean place, like purity-

Seth: Yeah, that's right

David: ... is going to drive stuff out and call it out.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's like, "I'm just coming with the power of the resurrected Jesus, who's trying to get

David: life out of your death."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "And I'm gonna do that. Anything that's dead, I'm gonna try to get rid of the death and bring life out of it."

Seth: Yeah.

David: So, like, we kinda... I do wanna say, like, we actually all bear that coming-with-Christ-ness-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that Paul has. Like, I mean, I, I'm sure this is true for you.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, when I hang out with my non-Christian friends-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the room is different than when I'm not there.

Seth: Yes.

David: I bring a difference-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to that room when I'm there.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, because they're like, "Oh, Jesus is in the room," whatever that means to them.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And we have to use different language-

Seth: Mm

David: ... maybe tell different jokes.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Do different... They ask different questions-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... play different games when David's there than when he's not. Why? 'Cause he brought Jesus with him.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like-

Seth: Yeah, that's like-

David: Whether they believe in him or not, the atmosphere changed.

Seth: There's like a, there's like a... There's a little, a mini apocalypse every time-

David: [laughing]

Seth: ... like, a Christian walks into the room. [laughing]

David: [laughing] Yes!... Neighbor Nights, [laughing] my vision for Neighbor Nights has just changed radically.

Seth: Mini apocalypses. [laughing]

David: Oh, that's too good. Oh, my gosh. But yeah, a- and, and also, we- I, I just, I just do wanna double-click on something you said, 'cause it's like, you know, Paul has this special right as an apostle to compare himself to Christ and his suffering. Uh, I know you know this, but like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... I mean, this is, this is something afforded to all Christians.

Seth: That's right.

David: And it's the comfort he offers throughout his letters-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that when you suffer, you are joining Christ in his affliction. Like, what a-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that's not the elite privilege of an apostle. You know that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's just like, man, that's a sweet thing that we all have, is we are united with Christ in our suffering. We are like him when we suffer-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... which is a baffling mystery. So it's just-

Seth: Yeah. Well, and I mean, not like, not to, like, go all in on the idea of a mini apocalypse-

David: Oh, boy. [chuckles]

Seth: ... but, but

Seth: Paul has said, like, he said, like, "This moment of generosity is a, a opportunity for you to prove yourselves-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and the genuineness of your love." And like, that is what the apocalypse will be, a final revealing-

David: Yeah, that's right

Seth: ... of the genuineness of all believers' faith and fidelity to, to, to, to, to Jesus.

David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Seth: And there will be opportunities throughout all of our lives where that genuineness will be tested.

David: That's right.

Seth: And it's a mini apocalypse-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when it happens.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, there's a moment for of revealing in-

David: Mm. Yeah

Seth: ... profound, like, in moments of j- when, when you're presented with an opportunity to give, it is a moment of apocalypse-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... a moment of revealing-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who you are-

David: And whose you are

Seth: ... and whose you are.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, and, like, that happens not just with generosity, but, like, temptation, whatever else.

David: Yes.

Seth: But, or-

David: Yeah, I think of-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, the, the cliche or whatever of, of, you know, you never wanna see a person at their best, you wanna see them at their worst, 'cause when they're at their worst, that's what comes out of them.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot.

David: It's like who they are-

Seth: Yes

David: ... is, like, what comes out in their worst moment.

Seth: Yes.

David: It's like, it's a l- it's a little mini apocalypse.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We're gonna reveal-

Seth: Yes

David: ... what's in there.

Seth: Yes.

David: And it's like generosity is a way to, like, self-invoke a mini apocalypse.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: "Is Christ in me?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Do I have the spirit, the gift, the grace-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of generosity in me? If I don't have it anywhere, have I experienced-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the God who was, the rich became poor, so that I, in my poverty, might become rich?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: "If I haven't..." It's like the parable of the unmerciful servant. He's like, "The, the king forgives the servant an exorbitant sum-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and then he won't go forgive somebody else a tiny one."

Seth: That's right.

David: He's like, "Well, you haven't experienced the grace of the king."

Seth: Obviously, you haven't.

David: Obviously, you haven't-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because you're not forgiving others.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so that's the whole idea of, like, "Oh, if you don't forgive others, I'm not gonna forgive you."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Not because your, your forgiving others is contingent upon God's forgiveness of you.

Seth: Yeah, it's like, it earns you-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... forgiveness. But that's like-

David: But it's because you cannot help but forgive others if you've experienced such forgiveness.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You can't help but be generous if you've experienced such generosity. It's a mini apocalypse.

Seth: So if every opportunity to give-

David: Okay

Seth: ... is a mini apocalypse that places an op... Like, gives me the opportunity to reveal whether I'm not, I'm a true follower of Jesus-

David: Okay

Seth: ... don't I have to give every time somebody asks from me-

David: Oh, that's great

Seth: ... for money?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, that would be the, the, uh, in my legalistic brain, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that's the first thing I assume, is like, "Well, if it's that serious, [chuckles] then I've always gotta shell out something."

David: Right.

Seth: Uh-

David: Yeah.

Seth: How would you... How would Paul... Obviously, this is a very specific situation.

David: Yeah, it is.

Seth: He's not saying, "This is... You should, you should give to this one particular thing." Well, partly because you said you would, so-

David: Right

Seth: ... you, you should do that.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But, like, how should a Christian... Uh, there's thousands of opportunities for generosity.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, and because our world is connected by the Internet, we can give to me-

David: Anything, anytime. [chuckles]

Seth: ... Anything, anytime, all the time, and we, you know. Right. So like, how would... And maybe that's just not outside the scope of this.

David: It's a good question. It's a good pastoral question for-

Seth: But like-

David: ... all of us listening and thinking about this.

Seth: It's like if, if the call is to, like, prove-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the genuineness of your faith.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh...

David: Yeah, so I-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... so I think, again, so I think w- w- to answer the question first, it's not about the action, it's about the heart posture.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So have you first given yourself to God?

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And then he will let you know what to give yourself to after that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: If you have this legalistic view of that equation, it's, "I have to first give myself to others in order to give myself to God."

Seth: Right.

David: "Or I have to first give my money to give myself to God."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well, you've got the equation backwards.

Seth: Yes.

David: Give yourself to God, and He'll show you through wisdom, the Holy Spirit-

Seth: Yes

David: ... all that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what to give yourself or your resources to. If you're giving your resources to things to try to give yourself to God, you've got the equation-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... backwards, and you're gonna run into that trap all the time.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, and maybe there's two, like, two, like, there's something very specific... Paul says, "Give yourself to us."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so, like, presumably, all Christians are a part of a local church.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so there's just some, like, call to be, like, especially attentive to the things that are-

David: In your local church

Seth: ... in your local church and around you.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which was-

David: To your neighbor.

Seth: To your neighbor.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right, yeah, Paul, yeah, it's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... be good to your neighbor.

David: A very Jesus thing to say there.

Seth: Yeah, a very Jesus thing.

David: Yeah. Yeah, when your neighbor is like, "I need help," and you're like, "Sorry, I gave to the Red Cross" and-

Seth: Right

David: ... you know, nothing wrong-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... giving to the Red Cross, obviously, but it's like, "Don't neglect your neighbor for a bunch of flashy internet campaigns either."

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: I would probably say that anyway.

Seth: Yeah. Anyway, that's-

David: Yeah, that's interesting.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But the, the point is-

Seth: And I think-

David: ... get the equation the right way.

Seth: That's right.

David: Listen, and listen, listen to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and have a generous heart-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is the goal.

Seth: Yeah, me asking the question, "Well, don't I have to give every time then?" Betrays, like, something broken in my heart, my thinking.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like, what kind of people think that the only way, like... To assume you have to do it every time just assumes what? That I d- like God's a taskmaster.

David: Mm.

Seth: That G- like, you know, I'm-

David: Yeah, right

Seth: ... I have a wrong view of God if when I hear, like, a genuine call to test my faith-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that well, that I have to prove it every time.

David: Right.

Seth: It's like, well, God's not-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... a meticulous scorekeeper-

David: That's right

Seth: ... racking up all the times you said no to an opportunity to give.

David: That's right.

Seth: That's not the point.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And not all opportunities to give are created equal.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We are to be wise stewards of the resources God entrusts to us.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David: We want to invest them into worthwhile places.

Seth: ... so it's like if you, if you're, if you, like, I generously sowed my life into a prostitution ring. [chuckles]

David: Wait, what?

Seth: [laughs]

David: No, I worked really hard.

Seth: Right. Yeah, [chuckles] yeah. That's right.

David: I labored so hard.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah!

Seth: Uh-

David: But for the wrong thing. [chuckles]

Seth: But for the wrong thing.

David: It's like we need to be sure we know what we're sowing our money into. So every opportunity-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to give in this hyperbolic situation-

Seth: Yes

David: ... uh, a lot of those opportunities fall off-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... 'cause you investigate and scrutinize them, and you're like, "This isn't good."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Or you look at it, and you're like, "I don't f- I don't think this is for me."

Seth: Yeah.

David: But if it always comes down to like, "Mm, I don't want to give"-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that's different. 'Cause I think the difference is like-

Seth: Right

David: ... "Oh, I'd love to give. Let me look at it."

Seth: Hmm.

David: It's like, "That's, this, uh, this isn't right."

Seth: If it's, if I have to give for God to like me, if I have to give to feel good about myself, if I have to give because, uh, I'm- feel compul-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... compulsion-

David: Right

Seth: ... that's the, the... Your heart is wrong.

David: That's right.

Seth: You're not being formed the way that Paul-

David: Yes

Seth: ... would hope you would be formed.

David: Perfect segue.

Seth: Yes.

David: Here we go. Perfect segue. Moving on, I, I am gonna skip some things for the sake of time here. Uh, verse six of chapter nine: "The point is this [laughing]-"

Seth: Great.

David: Here we go. "Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... not reluctantly or under compulsion," which you just said.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "For God loves a cheerful giver." It's about the heart.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And God is able to make all grace..." He's able to give you the gift, uh, "... abound to you, so that, having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written, 'He has distributed freely. He has given to the poor; his righteousness endures-

Seth: Mm

David: ... forever.'" Almost done. "'He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.'

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And you'll be enriched in every way." Okay.

Seth: Mm-mm-mm.

David: So let's talk about this passage.

Seth: Okay, okay, okay.

David: So his point is this: he's like, "We need to redefine how you even think about generosity, how you think about giving."

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause we, we've talked about it. It's a test of faith to see if you've actu- actually had an encounter with the God who, though rich, became poor.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So it's a mini apocalypse.

Seth: Mini apocalypse. [chuckles]

David: That's good. All right, great. Um, it's a way to participate in the mystery and miracle of God to provide for the world. That's really special.

Seth: Yes.

David: Love that. And but now I need you to see that actually generosity is ultimately a selfish endeavor, in a way-

Seth: Mm

David: ... like, to put it really crassly.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, because he's like, "Let's think about the farmer." When the farmer goes out there, he doesn't go like, "Oh, one seed. Ah, dang it! All right, fine, I'll give that to the ground. Oh, another seed. Uh, mm, I'm gonna hold onto that one."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Another seed. Oh, maybe I'll give that one." No, he takes a seed out there and just scatters it like crazy.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Why? 'Cause he knows the cost of scattering broadly and abundantly-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that seed, what grows out of it-

Seth: Is more valuable

David: ... is way more valuable. That's where he makes his money-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is in the harvest, not the sowing.

Seth: Mm.

David: He's like, "You guys need to flip your equations. In keeping money, you're holding onto seed-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and it don't grow."

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you get nothing if you hold onto it. If you sow it abundantly, you're going to reap a harvest, and it's gonna be so much more.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Why on earth would you leave seeds in the pouch-

Seth: Yes

David: ... when you can sow it in the field?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: 'Cause w- you guys, you guys have farms. You know how this works.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You gotta sow the seed to reap the harvest.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So you gotta, you gotta change your viewpoint of what generosity is doing. It's not losing, it's gaining. You actually, like, can be a little greedy for generosity. [chuckles]

Seth: That's... I don't know if I've ever heard anybody say just that clearly. Like, you know, fruit's more valuable than seeds.

David: Right. [chuckles]

Seth: I'm like-

David: Right. [chuckles] Well, that's clear.

Seth: I was like, I was like, I've read this passage so many times, heard it so many times, "Whoever sows sparingly will reap sparingly."

David: Right.

Seth: Like, oh, yeah, you plant a lot of seeds, you get a lot of fruit. But it's like I hadn't... I didn't have in my mind-

David: Right

Seth: ... somebody withholding seed.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm like, "Oh, well, obviously you wouldn't do that."

David: That's stupid. [chuckles] Yeah.

Seth: [chuckles] It's like, it's obviously you should get rid of all the seeds.

David: Right.

Seth: Nobody wants just a pile of seeds.

David: No, you'd be, you would be poor.

Seth: Yes.

David: You would be a poor farmer if you-

Seth: Oh, that's so funny

David: ... never planted your cheap seeds.

Seth: That's so funny.

David: But whenever you put them in the ground-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... they grow. And so this is just fascinating. Uh, so there's a couple things to point out here. So, so, one, uh, the, the, the, the, the farmer doesn't sow his seed under compulsion-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or reluctantly.

Seth: Yes.

David: He's not like, "Oh, dang it, this ground's gonna take all my seed again.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This poor-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... miserable, lowly ground-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is gonna take all my precious seed." He's like, "No! Here we go, harvest time.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Let's go. Let's get ready for the harvest."

Seth: Or it's like, "Oh, I've gotta sow the seed so, so my landlord will be happy," or, "I've gotta sow the seeds so that I'll feel like I've, I've been a good dad this year."

David: Right.

Seth: And, you know, it's like none of those things are-

David: No, he's expecting of the harvest.

Seth: Yes.

David: He's doing it because he knows what comes from it, so he's happy to sow seed.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, it's a cheerful, voluntary, free-flowing thing for a farmer to plant.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It just... Farmers plant seeds.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: This is a ne- a normal thing that they do.

Seth: Yes.

David: They're not like, "Oh, stupid seed." [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, so that's one thing to, to... God loves a cheerful giver. Why? Because they're doing it out of the freedom of their heart-

Seth: Mm

David: ... because they actually understand the economics of the universe-

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yes

David: ... that they're synced up with Him-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that through poverty is wealth.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, okay, so there's that.

Seth: Got it.

David: Then he quotes, um, Psalm 1:12.

Seth: Okay.

David: "He has distributed freely. He has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever." So here in Psalm 1:12, the psalmist paints God as the generous spreader of seed-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... who's scattering his gifts abroad, across the whole planet, even to the poor. And so he's like, "This is just what God does. So if you wanna be like God, be like a farmer who spreads his seed everywhere, who gives his wealth-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... to others." Uh, and in that psalm-... it also explores, like I said, the, the economics of the universe, that you see that those who give have an abundance,

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: and those who hoard up die in Sheol.

Seth: Hmm.

David: It all withers away.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so he's trying to show them, you need to flip the economics that you're working with.

Seth: Right. Yeah.

David: That you think having a lot is having a lot, but it's not.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's actually all just gonna wither and die.

Seth: Well, I think just the, the image of, like, seed is so helpful, like, d- nobody holds onto seeds.

David: No! The- [chuckles]

Seth: It's like, it's like thinking of money as fruit rather than seed-

David: Ooh

Seth: ... is the problem.

David: That's good.

Seth: It's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... you think money is the thing, but it's just-

David: We had a really fruitful year.

Seth: Yeah, right. Uh, yeah, that's right. It's th-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that's- the money's the thing.

David: Right.

Seth: Money is the fruit.

David: It's like, no, God gave you a lot of seeds.

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: Go plant them.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. Oh, that is good. I do love that. Um, and then, so... And then, "He who supplies," verse 10, "He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness." Okay, so a- and he... Oh, sorry, let me go above, too, in verse, uh, eight, "And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work." Okay, I think there's two things happening here. One, is there's an admission that God is in control of everything at all times, in all places. So what gives us the freedom to cheerfully give abundantly and generously?

Seth: It's because we've given ourselves to God.

David: We've given ourselves to God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We trust that He will take care of us-

Seth: Yes

David: ... whenever we try to take care of ourselves, we hoard.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? But when we trust God to provide for us, we give. So again, it's like another test-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... here.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: It's like, dude, is God your provider or not? Like, He's the one who has it all. You can give yourself to Him, and He'll have you give your things away, but He'll give it back to you.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's gonna take care of you. He's got it all. And then, so I think that's one thing that's happening, is there's a safety in giving because you're giving under the care of the God who owns everything.

Seth: Yes.

David: I think that's part of it. The other part is as you plant seeds, and they grow, right? And you harvest-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... your, your, your crops, what do you get from the crops that you plant if you're a smart farmer?

Seth: More seeds.

David: More seeds.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And more than you planted. You plant one seed, it becomes, uh, a fruit that has 100 seeds.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so the idea here is that not only will generosity, um, not leave you impoverished-

Seth: Yes

David: ... God will take care of you. But also, generosity should beget more generosity, that you, as, as you give more seed, you should be able to give more seed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, how cool! You'll be on this ever-expanding journey of generosity with God-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that as you're generous, He'll be able to make you more generous.

Seth: Okay.

David: And let me pause here-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and say, uh, one clarifying thing. Um, I think one of, one of my f- one of my friends and mentors says that there are, are three principal things. He actually has a list of, like, 20.

Seth: Okay.

David: There's three principal things that you can be generous with.

Seth: Okay.

David: And he has a whole list. It's like, "You can be generous with your thanks." Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... "Hey, thanks for holding that door for me.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Hey, thanks for working today. Hey," like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: But, like, there's three: time, talent, treasure.

Seth: Yeah.

David: These are things we can sow.

Seth: Okay.

David: These are things we have that we can sow. You have time. You can give your time to people, be with-

Seth: Mm

David: ... those in prison, those grieving-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... those struggling-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... those who need help moving a house. You can be generous with your time.

Seth: Yes.

David: You can be generous with your talent. You can do things I can't do. I can do things you can't do. Everybody has that.

Seth: So let's go do that for others.

David: Do that for others.

Seth: Yeah.

David: What's something you can do that other people struggle with, and you're like, "I can do that. I might not have a ton of money to give, but I can give my time, and I give my talent."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And I can sow that into somebody else and reap a harvest." And you have treasure.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Now, treasure doesn't just mean dollars and cents. It can mean assets, cars-

Seth: Mm

David: ... food, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, a laundry machine. Like, uh, we had f- we have firewood in our backyard, and I got a text from a neighbor, and they were like, "We need firewood." I was like, "Go in my backyard, grab firewood."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like...

Seth: Yes.

David: D- like, yeah-

Seth: Take my, take my things

David: ... take my things. They're here for you.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: And so, like, there's just that idea.

Seth: Mm.

David: So just as we... I just wanted to broaden the category of, like, "So I just need to give my money?" Yes, you do.

Seth: Mm.

David: You should. It's for your good. But also, you have lots of other things that you can joyfully-

Seth: Yes

David: ... give in order to reap a harvest.

Seth: Let me ask some pr- not practical questions-

David: Okay

Seth: ... but-

David: I do wanna end on, what is the harvest? But-

Seth: Well, that's my question.

David: Perfect, that's where Paul ends.

Seth: Because, because I'm like, "Okay, I get it. My money is seeds."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "I plant in the ground, and I get a harvest." Paul says, "I'll get a harvest such that I'll have more seeds."

David: Yeah.

Seth: So does that mean I'm getting more money?

David: Hmm.

Seth: And if so, great, I can be... I can plant more seeds-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and I can, and the cycle continues. So is this like an implicit promise that in generosity we will

Seth: get wealthier?

David: Hmm.

Seth: Um, or is it that the harvest is somehow, like, intangible and spiritual-

David: Let's go

Seth: ... uh, and that you... I'll be satisfied in the fact that-

David: Oh

Seth: ... the, the, the vague notion? [chuckles]

David: Here we go. You ready?

Seth: [chuckles] Yeah.

David: This is, this is the perfect question. This is what Paul says next.

Seth: Okay, great. [chuckles]

David: Okay, here we go.

Seth: I'm listening, I'm listening well. [chuckles]

David: You are listening well. I love this. Verse 11, chapter 9, "You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God." There's your harvest, the produce, thanksgiving to God.

Seth: Okay.

David: "By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission that comes from your confession of the Gospel of Christ and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others, while they long for you and pray for you because of the surpassing grace of God upon you. Thanks be to God for His inexpressible gift." Okay, here we go. Here's the harvest.

Seth: Okay. Okay, okay.

David: So the harvest, there's a couple things in here.

Seth: Is thanksgiving.

David: Thanksgiving to God. Let, let, let's back up real quick, and let's just talk about-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... principally what is a harvest.

Seth: Okay.

David: So the, the one reason I would say that, so I plant seeds of money, and I get more money-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is probably not the right way to think about it.

Seth: I plant a strawberry seed, I get strawberries.

David: Exactly.

Seth: ... but that's not the right way to think about it.

David: Well, no, no, you, you, you, you said something-

Seth: Oh.

David: But it's different, right?

Seth: Okay.

David: You plant a- I, I plant a watermelon seed-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and it becomes?

Seth: A watermelon.

David: A watermelon.

Seth: Yes.

David: Do they look the same?

Seth: No.

David: No, they look very different, and even thinking about how Paul spoke about seeds-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in First Corinthians, he's like, "Look, guys-

Seth: Mm.

David: "... whenever you plant a seed," he's talking about the physical body-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in the ground, what it becomes, what it grows into, is nothing like the seed that you planted.

Seth: That's right.

David: A watermelon looks nothing like the watermelon seed.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So what we grow out of the things we plant in generosity don't necessarily look like-

Seth: Right

David: ... what we planted.

Seth: Right.

David: So I think that's a good principle to just-

Seth: Yes

David: ... think about.

Seth: And in my mind, though, like, the thing received has in it the thing given, too.

David: Yep.

Seth: So a watermelon-

David: Yep

Seth: ... doesn't look like a watermelon seed, but it has watermelon seeds in it, and more than I ever planted.

David: That's right.

Seth: Okay.

David: Yep, so, uh, so then, so shouldn't I just increasingly get the means to be generous as I am generous? Like, I plant-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a watermelon seed, I get a thousand watermelon seeds.

Seth: Yes.

David: I, I would push against that. I, I would say, maybe, and sometimes.

Seth: Yes.

David: I've, I've, I've seen that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, in people's lives. Um, but I think the principle here is that your capacity for generosity is what's increasing.

Seth: Okay.

David: That... 'Cause you're... Again, to go back to what he said earlier, he con- he consistently tells to give according to your means-

Seth: Okay, yes

David: ... according to what you've set aside in your heart-

Seth: Yes

David: ... out of-

Seth: What you're, what you're able to do

David: ... free, free, and-

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah, yep. So what needs to increase in them, and in me, is my capacity, not financially, but in my heart-

Seth: Okay

David: ... to be generous. I've got, like, three seeds. I've got three watermelon seeds right now.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: As I've learned to sow the one that I used to have, I was like, "Oh, I think now I got, like, three."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, like, I'm better at generosity-

Seth: Yes

David: ... now than I was, but I wanna stretch that and try again-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... so I can have five watermelon seeds. Not that I'll have more money to give, but that I have more capacity-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in my heart, that my heart's being more ripped away from greed-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that I'm ready to sow whatever-

Seth: Is that-

David: ... God leads me to

Seth: ... what Paul means by thanksgiving to God? Like, thanksgiving to God is the capacity or the desire to give?

David: No, I was going back to-

Seth: Oh, so, so sorry

David: ... another question you were asking about, so it, it, does seeds mean more seeds?

Seth: Right.

David: I was just talking about-

Seth: Yes.

David: I think that's more about capacity, although if it is about as you sow time, you get more time, that doesn't really make sense.

Seth: Yeah.

David: As you sow talent, you get more talent.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You sow money... People want the money to money one to be true-

Seth: Right

David: ... and it has been true in people's lives.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But I don't think that's the exact principle he's setting up.

Seth: Yes.

David: If it is, awesome.

Seth: Right.

David: Go do it-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and be generous increasingly.

Seth: Yes.

David: That sounds amazing. Nothing breaks for me if that's what's true here.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: But the, but the f- the harvest, what is the harvest?

Seth: Yes.

David: I just... The point I was trying to make is, it looks nothing like what is sown.

Seth: Got it.

David: I sow dead, pointless, like, mammon-worshiping money-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... into the ground. What comes out are real, human, eternal souls praising God forever.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: The harvest is people.

Seth: The harvest is what o- is happening in me.

David: Uh, well, i- i- if specifically, Paul is actually talking about what's happening in the people that they're blessing.

Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: That other people are gonna hear about their generosity, and that they did it in the name of Jesus, who died-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and rose for them, and they're gonna start thanking God-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and they're gonna start praying for the Corinthians. So the harvest is human beings-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is, are the harvest. That's the harvest, is human-

Seth: Right.

David: That's why I think when Jesus talks about treasures in heaven-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, things that are incorruptible-

Seth: Yes

David: ... will last forever-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what is that? People walking around.

Seth: Mm.

David: And that's who he sows into.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, that's the harvest.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: He's like, "I'm trying to, like, birth you, you know, like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... into-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, this person who can live forever." Uh, and so the harvest is people who are thanks, thank- thanking God-

Seth: Giving thanks to God

David: ... for everything and praying. It's creating a harvest of thanksgiving to God-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... a harvest of people, and a harvest of prayer. So now you've got a whole bunch of people praying for you.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You got a whole bunch of people thanking God-

Seth: Because of you

David: ... and you got a whole bunch of people who are escaping poverty and death, so they can live with God and wealth forever.

Seth: Mm.

David: That's a harvest.

Seth: That's, that's a harvest.

David: That's the harvest, is people.

Seth: Fascinating.

David: And the praise and glory of God and the prayers of the saints. That's-

Seth: Yeah, I love that. I don't know if I've ever heard that said so clearly.

David: Awesome.

Seth: And it- what's funny is that we, we have it on both sides. It's like, the p- what does giving do? It transforms you.

David: Yes, yes.

Seth: And the harvest is that other people give glory and thanks, give thanks to God.

David: That's right, yep.

Seth: Um-

David: It's so cool. Uh, saying this as an example, not as a plug. [chuckles]

Seth: Okay.

David: Everyone hear that, but that's what we get to see at Spoken Gospel. We get to live that. We're a nonprofit, like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... we exist by people generously, like-

Seth: Giving money

David: ... giving to us.

Seth: That's right.

David: And what we hear is, like, people start giving to us, and they're like, "I just read my Bible more now-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and I pray more 'cause I'm praying for you.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I read my Bible more 'cause I gave to wanting to read it, and so I do it more."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And, uh, and also, like, I, I said no to this thing and said yes to this," and we're seeing people-

Seth: Yes

David: ... changed, not through our resources-

Seth: Yes

David: ... but just 'cause they gave, and that could happen by giving to anything good.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, that's just the good work of generosity.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And then, and then what's happening is, we go and we do the thing that they supported us to, to give. We thank God for them. We pray for them.

Seth: Yes.

David: So they're reaping a harvest of prayer from us. We're thanking God for their provision. That happens around here all the time, and then what else happens? People around the world-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in dozens of countries and languages, are hearing the gospel of Jesus-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and they're thanking God.

Seth: Giving thanks to God.

David: And a harvest of praise-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is created, and seed after seed after seed is multiplying and getting planted.

Seth: Mm, mm.

David: And so that's the difference between greed and generosity. Greed stagnates and dies and creates nothing. Generosity-

Seth: You've just got pile of seeds. [chuckles]

David: Yeah, you got a pile of dead seeds.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's not gonna make nothing, whereas generosity multiplies a harvest of seeds so that people can know Jesus.

Seth: I love that.

David: There we go.

Seth: There we go.

David: Generosity.

Seth: I love that. Uh, that's super clear. I haven't heard a lot of those things put so clearly next to each other before.

David: Oh, I'm so glad. This is one of my favorite ideas, so it's just been so fun-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to think about. Okay, that's generosity. Next, next episode, we get to jump into the thorn in the flesh-

Seth: The thorn in the flesh

David: ... and the third heaven, and the messengers of Satan.

Seth: Got a lot of-

David: Different topics. [chuckles]

Seth: Different topics. [chuckles]

David: Well, thank you, guys.

Seth: Just-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Some more curiosities in Corinthians.

David: Yes.

Seth: The... [chuckles]

David: Ooh, ooh. [chuckles]

Seth: The, the, the Corinthian curiosities with David and Seth.

David: Well, thank you, guys, so much for tuning in. It's been really fun. Uh, looking forward to wrapping up this, uh, little mini session with you guys next time in Second Corinthians. We'll see you there.

Outro: [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]

‍

Related Resources

Free videos sent straight to your inbox.

The Economics of Generosity: How Giving Transforms Us and Others

Show Notes

The Collection for Jerusalem and the Corinthian Reluctance

The Macedonian Example and the Test of Genuine Faith

Generosity as Gospel Reflection

The Miracle of Redistribution

The Economics of Sowing and Reaping

The Harvest of Thanksgiving and Prayer

Related Resources

Introduction to 2 Corinthians

View our devotional on 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:11

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the 2 Corinthians Overview: What is an Apostle? podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians: The Unveiled Face podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 6: Do Not Be Unequally Yoked podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 8-9: The Economics of Generosity podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 11-12: Paul's Thorn in the Flesh podcast