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2 Corinthians Overview: What is an Apostle?

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This episode explores the concept of apostleship in the early church and its significance in Paul's second letter to the Corinthians.

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2 Corinthians Overview: What Is an Apostle?

Show Notes

In this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, hosts David and Seth begin a new series on 2 Corinthians by examining a question that sits at the heart of this letter: What is an apostle, and why does Paul spend so much of this letter defending his apostleship? Far from being an exercise in ego protection, Paul's defense reveals something essential about the nature of the Gospel itself and how Jesus's kingdom grows in the world.

The Tumultuous Relationship Between Paul and Corinth

The church in Corinth may be the congregation about which we have the most back-and-forth information regarding Paul's ministry. This wasn't because things were going smoothly—quite the opposite. The relationship between Paul and this church plant was marked by ongoing tension, correction, and reconciliation. In 2 Corinthians, Paul isn't primarily addressing the cultural issues he tackled in 1 Corinthians, such as sexual immorality, divisions along socioeconomic lines, and the misuse of spiritual gifts. Instead, he's responding to a new crisis: a group of people he calls "false apostles" have infiltrated the church and begun calling into question Paul's credentials as an apostle of Jesus. Some in Corinth have started to reject Paul, or at least threaten to reject him, along with the ministry and Gospel he brought to them. This letter, then, is Paul's defense of his apostolic ministry and his counterattack against these false teachers who are leading the Corinthians astray.

What Makes an Apostle Different from a Disciple?

The word "apostle" simply means messenger or "sent one." However, Jesus understood the apostles to be a distinct subset of all his disciples. In Luke 6:12-13, after spending the night in prayer, Jesus called his disciples to him and chose 12 of them, whom he designated as apostles. This selection marks them as having a special type of relationship and ambassadorship compared to the rest of Jesus's followers. The number 12 itself carries profound significance, echoing the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus was proclaiming the Gospel of a new kingdom, and these 12 men would serve as the foundational representatives of that Kingdom of God. Jesus made this explicit during the Last Supper in Luke 22 when he told the apostles, "You are those who have stood by me in my trials, and I confer on you a kingdom just as my Father conferred one on me." The apostles were being appointed as foundational rulers and ambassadors of God's kingdom on earth.

This foundational role shows up throughout the New Testament. In Ephesians 2, Paul describes the Church as a house "built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone." And immediately after Pentecost in Acts 2:42, the new church "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching." The first mark of the first post-resurrection church was commitment to what the apostles taught. An apostle, then, is someone chosen by Jesus to carry on the foundational work of building the first churches of the Kingdom of God and establishing the teaching and doctrine that would guide all believers.

Why Did God Choose This Model?

The question naturally arises: Why did God choose this particular model of a small group of specially commissioned leaders? Why not something more democratic or widespread? The pattern throughout Scripture provides the answer: God chooses some for the benefit of all. God chose Israel, though they were the smallest and least impressive of the nations, so that through them the entire world would be blessed. In the same way, Jesus called out 12 men—not a particularly impressive group, as the Gospels make clear—to be those through whom blessing would flow to the entire world. This pattern of God working through small numbers to accomplish worldwide purposes runs from Abraham through Israel and now continues in the apostles.

Additionally, this model reflects God's consistent practice of working in partnership with humans. From the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve were meant to tend and expand God's good creation, God has always chosen to build his kingdom alongside human beings. Just as Adam and Eve were foundational to the Garden, the apostles are foundational to the Church. They are not special because of their own qualities but because of who sent them. The authority of an apostle derives entirely from the one who commissioned them—Jesus himself.

The Cruciform Nature of Apostolic Leadership

When Jesus spoke to his apostles about their role, he consistently framed it in terms of service and suffering rather than power and privilege. In Matthew 20, when James and John's mother requested positions of honor for her sons in the coming kingdom, Jesus responded by contrasting worldly leadership with the leadership he expected from his followers: "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. However, it shall not be so among you, but whoever would be great among you must be a slave." Jesus pointed to himself as the model—he came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. He repeated this teaching at the Last Supper in Luke 22, telling the apostles that unlike worldly kings who call themselves benefactors while lording over others, "the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves."

This servant-oriented, suffering-marked leadership wasn't merely an abstract principle. Jesus discussed apostolic authority in contexts where his own death loomed on the horizon. The nature of apostolic leadership was to be one of slavery and service, following the pattern of Jesus himself. When Paul later defends his apostleship in 2 Corinthians, we shouldn't project our views of domineering authority onto him. Rather, Paul was fighting to serve the Corinthian church, to die for them, to suffer for them—which is precisely what his ministry had involved. The foundation of the Church, built by the apostles, was laid at the bottom, through suffering and service, just as Jesus the cornerstone was laid through his death on the cross.

Paul: The Untimely Born Thirteenth Apostle

Paul recognized that he occupied an unusual position. In 1 Corinthians 15, he described himself as "one untimely born" and "the least of the apostles" because he had persecuted the Church. The addition of a 13th apostle to the symbolic 12 seemed out of step with the numerical pattern representing the new covenant community. But Paul's unique calling made theological sense: he was the apostle to the Gentiles. His commissioning as recorded in Acts 9:15 made this clear—God told Ananias that Paul was "a chosen vessel of mine to bear my name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel." The reason for a 13th apostle was that the full people of God would not be limited to the 12 tribes of Israel. Paul's ministry of bringing the Gospel to bless the entire world fulfilled the original mission of Israel—to be a beacon of light to all nations. Paul was an ambassador of that light beyond Jewish boundaries, which is how he ended up planting the church in Corinth.

The Crisis Behind 2 Corinthians

The correspondence between Paul and Corinth was extensive and complex. Paul planted the church in Corinth and spent a year and a half there before conflicts with the local Jewish establishment forced him to leave. He then heard troubling reports and wrote a letter (which we don't have) addressing problems in the church. The Corinthians wrote back arguing with Paul, which prompted him to write what we know as 1 Corinthians. When Timothy delivered that letter and brought back concerning news, Paul changed his travel plans and visited Corinth directly. That visit went horribly wrong—someone publicly attacked and slandered Paul, and the church he had planted said nothing in his defense. Paul left, was severely persecuted in Macedonia, and then wrote what he calls a "distressing and sorrowful letter" (which we also don't have) calling the Corinthians to discipline the man who had attacked him. This letter worked—the church defended Paul, the offender repented, and reconciliation began.

But when Titus brought this good news back to Paul, he also brought troubling information: false apostles had infiltrated the church and were questioning Paul's competency and authority. Their critique was multifaceted. They pointed to Paul's changed travel plans as evidence he was an unreliable messenger. They boasted of impressive letters of recommendation while Paul had none. They claimed superior rhetorical skills—a significant advantage in Greek culture that prized oratory. They reported signs, wonders, and visions attending their ministry. In short, they were positioning themselves as "super apostles" whose credentials far surpassed Paul's. And their ultimate argument was this: Look at Paul—constantly suffering, beaten, imprisoned, shipwrecked. What kind of apostle is that?

Paul's Counterintuitive Defense

Paul faced a delicate challenge: he needed to defend his apostleship while maintaining the servant-hearted, cruciform posture that marks a true follower of Jesus. He couldn't simply stack his credentials against the super apostles without becoming like them—boasting in worldly power rather than divine weakness. So Paul engages in what he himself calls foolishness. He says, in effect, "If you love fools so much, indulge me in a little foolishness." Then he lists his qualifications, but the list takes a surprising turn. "Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, often near death."

The very things the false apostles used to discredit Paul—his sufferings, his weakness, his lack of worldly success—became his evidence of genuine apostleship. He boasted in the things that showed his weakness because, as God told him, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." The true mark of an apostle is not impressive credentials or rhetorical skill but conformity to the pattern of Jesus himself: humility, suffering, and servanthood. The false apostles disqualified themselves from the very office they claimed by boasting in their strength rather than their weakness.

Why This Letter Matters for Us

To deny Paul's apostleship was not merely to reject one man's authority—it was to deny the Gospel itself. Paul stated this explicitly: "If anyone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received from us, or if you accepted a different gospel from the one you accepted..." The false apostles were preaching a different Jesus, a different gospel, a different spirit. They were building a different kingdom through a different means. The critique of Paul that existed in first-century Corinth is still alive today in those who dismiss Paul's letters as contradicting Jesus or being the words of an angry Pharisee rather than a true apostle. Second Corinthians serves as Paul's defense, showing through his very life that he bears the marks of one truly sent by Jesus.

Beyond establishing Paul's authority, this letter invites all believers to embrace the cruciform shape of the Christian life. The apostles were not the only ones called to take up their cross—they were called to teach the way of Jesus to others, and that way involves losing one's life to find it. Paul provides an example of hoping for God's power precisely in places of weakness. As he writes in 2 Corinthians 4, "We have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us." The result is that believers can be afflicted but not crushed, perplexed but not driven to despair, persecuted but not forsaken, struck down but not destroyed. When others see this kind of resilience amid suffering, they witness the resurrection power of Jesus at work. Death operates in us so that life might operate in others. This is the pattern Jesus established, the pattern the apostles followed, and the pattern the Church is called to embody as Christ's ambassadors in the world.

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Transcript

Seth: [gentle music] Yeah, the question you started with was like, "Well, why this model?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: I think the only answer to that is, like, God seems to choose small numbers-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... for the benefit of all.

David: Right.

Seth: And the apostles are a new representation of God's people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... through whom blessing will flow to the entire world.

Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are starting a new book today, Second Corinthians-

Seth: The second one

David: ... or Fourth Corinthians, or-

Seth: Yeah, depending on-

David: Fifth Corinthians. [laughs]

Seth: There are a lot of interactions between Paul and the Corinthian church, and this is the second that we have.

David: You were explaining this to me, and I did not fight for clarity-

Seth: Uh

David: ... so I could do it live here. [laughing]

Seth: [laughing]

David: So I have no idea exactly-

Seth: Yes

David: ... which number of letter this is to-

Seth: There-

David: ... the church in Corinth from Paul.

Seth: Corinth might be the church that we have the most back-and-forth information about-

David: Mm

Seth: ... between Paul and, like, one of the churches that he planted.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So it seems to have been the church that he had the most, long-standing relationship is probably the wrong word, but, like, the most tumultuous relationship with. [chuckles]

David: That's a different word. Yeah.

Seth: [laughing] And so therefore, the longest, like, history of interaction with.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh-

David: That's interesting.

Seth: So we'll, we'll talk about all that.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh-

David: So I'm excited to talk about it. Um, inside of Second Corinthians is-

Seth: That's right

David: ... a verse and a passage that has meant a lot to Spoken Gospel.

Seth: That's right.

David: Um, talking about how, as we behold Jesus in Moses's writings of the Torah, we become like his image and glory.

Seth: Transformed-

David: Yep

Seth: ... uh, by the easy Jesus.

David: So I think we'll do a special episode just on that. So-

Seth: That's right

David: ... Second Corinthians is special, uh, for many reasons. It's God's Word. It's written by Paul, but also has a little Jim in it for us, you know?

Seth: Yeah, it does. It does.

David: So lots of good things, but... Okay, so we've done an episode on First Corinthians.

Seth: We did three episodes on First Corinthians. [laughing]

David: We did three episodes on First Corinthians.

Seth: And in those episodes, we kind of did, especially in the first one, like, a lot of preliminary matters about what Corinth the city was like and what Corinth the church was like.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And if you're interested in that information, you can go back and listen to them. Paul is kind of not engaging in Second Corinthians with Corinth as a city or even Corinthian culture-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... uh, as much as he is dealing with a new problem that has arisen, that calls into question his credentials as an apostle of Jesus.

David: Mm.

Seth: And a group of people he calls false apostles have, like, come into Corinth after he left and have stirred up a, a good degree of division in the church and caused some in Corinth to reject Paul, or at least threaten to reject Paul and the ministry that he brought and the gospel that he brought.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So Second Corinthians is a response, in a lot of ways, to that crisis, and so what Paul's doing in Second Corinthians is defending his own ministry as an apostle of Jesus and kind of going on the attack against these false teachers. So those preliminary matters-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... don't all necessarily come up, but-

David: Yeah, no, it makes sense-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... 'cause in the, in First Corinthians, there's a lot of, like, ethical issues and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... morality issues and chur- even, like, how the function of a church meeting should go, and it-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and it was a lot of-

Seth: Here's how to do prophecy and how not to do prophecy.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And there was a lot of blending of, yeah, the Corinthian pagan culture mixed now with Christianity, and what is Christ-like and what isn't? And so here, though, in Second Corinthians, what's always been kind of hard for me as I read it is, it is such a long discourse on Paul's defense of his authority, his-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, his apostleship, which is a weird concept.

Seth: Yep.

David: And it's like, why do I have in my inspired Bible-

Seth: Yes

David: ... an extended discourse of a church leader defending his leadership position? Like, it can feel-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a little even cringey.

Seth: Yeah. I was thinking about this, like, it would be weird if my pastor wrote Second Corinthians. [laughing]

David: [laughing]

Seth: Like, defending-

David: Okay

Seth: ... why he was such a great pastor.

David: Talk about that then.

Seth: Yeah. [laughing]

David: Like, why... What's the difference there? Why is it, why is it actually cringey if your pastor wrote, uh, something like Second Corinthians-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but maybe not cringey because Paul did?

Seth: Yeah, I think the best way to do it is just to talk about, what is an apostle?

David: Okay.

Seth: Because that's kind-

David: That's what's on the line?

Seth: That's what's on the line-

David: Okay

Seth: ... uh, in a lot of ways.

David: Not his bruised ego or his control issues-

Seth: Right

David: ... or-

Seth: And I think that's why we-

David: ... an authority complex.

Seth: That's right. All, 'cause all those things would- we would assume are on the line when our pastor might do it. [laughing]

David: [laughing] Yeah.

Seth: I love my pastor.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm not saying he's got a big ego he's trying to defend, but, uh, like, something more is going on-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the book of Corinthians than-

David: Okay

Seth: ... would be going on in a conversation about the relative authority-

David: Okay

Seth: ... of our local church pastor.

David: So you're saying Paul is defending his authority as an apostle.

Seth: Yes.

David: What on earth does that mean?

Seth: Yes. So an apostle, the word just means messenger or, like, sent one.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: That's all it means.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's also the word means. However, Jesus understands that the apostles are a subset of all of his disciples.

David: Mm.

Seth: So in the Book of Luke 6:12-13, Jesus chooses the-

David: Right

Seth: ... 12 apostles. A- a- and, uh, he, uh, and he says this in Luke 6:12-13:... So Jesus goes out on the mountainside to pray and spends the night praying to God. "And when morning called, he called his disciples to him and chose 12 of them, whom he also designated apostles." So Jesus calls all of his disciples to him, and from the group of disciples, he appoints 12 to a particular ministry that he calls apostleship. So I think the first thing we're supposed to see here is that, that it is distinct from simply being a follower of Jesus.

David: Mm.

Seth: There's a special type of relationship and ambassadorship that these 12 have in comparison to the rest-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of the apostles. And I think you even get a hint of that in the number 12, because 12 is a very significant number for the people of Israel.

David: Yes, the 12 tribes.

Seth: The 12... There's 12 tribes of Israel. So Jesus seems to be, as he is proclaiming the gospel of a new kingdom-

David: Yes

Seth: ... these are the 12 representatives of the new Kingdom of God.

David: Right.

Seth: And Jesus even says that explicitly in, uh, later on in the Book of Luke. In Luke chapter 22, during the Lord's Supper, he is talking about the nature of true leadership, and at the very end of his little conversation about the nature of true leadership, he says, "You," the apostles, "are those who have stood by me in my trials, and I confer on you a kingdom just as my Father conferred one on me."

David: Okay.

Seth: So Jesus sees these apostles as the foundational rulers or ambassadors of the Kingdom of God on Earth once he dies. [chuckles]

David: Okay.

Seth: And so, and the, the rest of the New Testament kind of picks up this idea that the apostles are this special, set-apart group of disciples who act as-

David: Ambassadors of the kingdom

Seth: ... special, foundational ambassadors-

David: Right

Seth: ... of the kingdom.

David: Because ambassadors have to be chosen, sent, delegated, like-

Seth: That's right

David: ... you know, like, uh, like, given a certain level of authority.

Seth: That's right. That's right.

David: And okay, yep.

Seth: Um, in Ephesians 2, it, it says, when Paul is talking about, like, the makeup of the church, he says, "We are no longer foreigners and strangers to one another, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of his house, built on the foundation of the apostles-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and the prophets-"

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: "... with Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone." So he has this extended metaphor about the Church as a home, and it's built on the prophets of the Old Testament and the teaching of the apostles. And even as soon as Acts 2, the day the Holy Spirit falls-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the Church is gathering together for the first time. 3,000 people are saved. The Holy Spirit has just come. After all this happens, um, we're told this in Acts 2:42: "And they," this new church that has just formed around the outpouring of the Holy Spirit-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the proclamation of Peter, uh, the, the chief apostle, "they," these people, "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and to the fellowship, and to the breaking of bread, and to prayer." So the first mark mentioned of the first church post Jesus's resurrection is a commitment to the apostles' teaching.

David: Mm.

Seth: So I say all that to, like, round out a picture of, like, what is an apostle, as distinct from a disciple? It seems to be an apostle is someone chosen by Jesus to carry on the foundational work of building and setting churches in that f- in the first churches of the Kingdom of God and establishing the teaching and the doctrine of the Kingdom of God-

David: Mm

Seth: ... on the Earth. So there we go.

David: Okay, yeah. I think what's, [sighs] not confusing, but I still have questions-

Seth: Yes

David: ... like, why this model?

Seth: Oh.

David: Or, you know, what's the, what, what, what purpose did they serve?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um, why didn't... Why wasn't it more democratic or-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... widespread?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it was so, it was more localized, and you had the 12. Even after Judas, one of the 12-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... betrays Jesus, they have to elect, you know-

Seth: A 12

David: ... a 12th through-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the Holy Spirit-

Seth: That's right

David: ... that he appointed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like, okay, there, now we have the 12. Now we can lay this foundation for the Church.

Seth: Yes.

David: Why this model? Uh, and then I'll have another question about-

Seth: I guess we can ask God

David: ... a 13th apostle. [chuckles]

Seth: Yes, we can ask about the 13th. I guess we can ask God when we get there, "Why 12?" [chuckles]

David: Yeah.

Seth: "And why this model?"

David: Right.

Seth: And I mean, I think there's probably something about... I haven't thought about this question-

David: Mm

Seth: ... until, in this particular way, but the pattern throughout Scripture is that God chooses some for the benefit of all.

David: Mm.

Seth: God chose Israel, though they were the least of the kingdom, of-

David: Yeah, right

Seth: ... uh, the kingdoms of the world.

David: And the smallest.

Seth: And the smallest of the k-

David: He picked small, little things

Seth: ... so that they would bless the entire world.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, and in a similar way, it seems as if God is repeating that mission-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of the people of God in the Old Testament-

David: Right

Seth: ... with the new covenant mission of Jesus, the, the Messiah.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So Jesus calls out 12, who are not a particularly impressive 12-

David: Right

Seth: ... as you go-

David: Yep

Seth: ... through the story.

David: Yep. [chuckles]

Seth: Um, but these 12 represent those through whom the whole world will be blessed.

David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and immediately-

Seth: Um-

David: ... after Acts 2, the 12 turn into what, 3,000?

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: And it's like, oh, fruitful and multiply. There it is. It's happening.

Seth: Yes.

David: The mustard seed is growing.

Seth: And we normally think about, like, Matthew 28, which is the Great Commission passage-

David: Right

Seth: ... as, you know, something for all believers, and that is, that is totally true.

David: Yes.

Seth: However, he d- Jesus does speak it to his disciples specifically and firstly, and he says, "He- All authority has been given to me"-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... "Jesus, therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit-

David: Mm

Seth: ... teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And surely, I am with you until the end of the age."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then it's fascinating, so that's Matthew 28.... and then the next-

David: And it is just the 11 who he says that to.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right.

David: The 12 minus Judas at that point.

Seth: That's right.

David: That's interesting.

Seth: And-

David: Yeah, he's giving his authority to his apostles-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to go into the world and make disciples.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Okay, yeah. Interesting.

Seth: And, and specifically, the fact of teaching here, which is brought up again in Acts 2.

David: That's right.

Seth: So it's like, "Oh, they are continuing the mission-

David: Yep

Seth: ... that, uh, Jesus gave them."

David: Yep.

Seth: Right here.

David: And it's also interesting to think, like, we need Jesus with us to form his church.

Seth: Yes.

David: But he went to the Father. [chuckles]

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, but gave us his Spirit-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... through whom he would teach us everything that he commanded, right?

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: He's with us to teach through his body-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... which started in these 12 men.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And now that body is growing, but the foundation of it was the apostles.

Seth: Mm.

David: And they were chosen, set apart-

Seth: Mm

David: ... sent, filled, and instructed-

Seth: Yes

David: ... with a specific mission, to lay a foundational teaching for the Church.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, not... And we- I think we've established the biblical pattern, not because they're special-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in themselves-

Seth: But because-

David: ... but because of who sent them.

Seth: Yes.

David: It's not who they are, but who they were sent by-

Seth: Yes

David: ... um, that makes them special, and so that's-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that's interesting.

Seth: Yeah, the question you started with was like, "Well, why this model?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: I think the only answer to that is, like, God seems to choose small numbers-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... for the benefit of all.

David: Right.

Seth: And the apostles are a new representation of God's people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... through whom blessing will flow to the entire world.

David: Right.

Seth: So I think that's-

David: And, yeah, and I think that my other question behind, like, why this model is like why people in this way? You know, like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... why didn't Jesus just stay around and teach people?

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, and it's like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that just, I think, goes back to the Garden-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and he always does things with-

Seth: With humans

David: ... with humans-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in partnership. He's gonna build his kingdom, grow his garden-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in partnership with humans.

Seth: Mm.

David: It's what he's always done.

Seth: That's right.

David: And as Adam and Eve were supposed to be foundational to the Garden-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the apostles are foundational to the Church.

Seth: Yes.

David: And that's, that's helpful, I think.

Seth: Yeah, and then I wanna say one more thing here, too, about who apostles are meant to be.

David: Okay.

Seth: Because Jesus speaks directly to the apostles multiple times about how they are supposed to carry this authority, in that this special delegated ambassadorship-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that will mark all of Paul's letter that we're about to go into.

David: Okay.

Seth: So at one point in time, in the Book of Matthew, in chapter 20, uh, James and John's mom comes up and says, "Hey, when, uh- [chuckles]

David: We do, we-"

Seth: ... now that, now that you've chosen your 12, like, and when your new kingdom comes, uh, can you make sure that my boys sit at your [chuckles] left and right hand-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the Kingdom of God?" And all the disciples are like, "Well, I wish I asked that question." [chuckles] And to which Jesus responds this way. He says, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them."

David: Mm.

Seth: "However, it shall not be so among you, but whoever would be great among you must be a slave, and whoever would be first among you, uh, must be your slave. Even as the Son of Man," referring to himself, "came not to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many."

David: Yeah.

Seth: So we normally take that as, like, an abstracted principle for Christian leadership.

David: Ah.

Seth: But remember, Jesus has promised to confer a kingdom-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to these new representatives of the New Covenant.

David: Yep.

Seth: And they do, they represent a new era of leadership for all of God's people, and he says very specifically to these men that, "The nature of your leadership will be one of slavery-

David: Yes

Seth: ... um, and service."

David: Yep.

Seth: And then he does this again in Luke 22. That's, that... A similar con- he has a similar conversation in Luke 22, right after the Lord's Supper, right after he promises he's about to die-

David: Mm

Seth: ... or that he's gonna die later, later than that weekend.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And in that same conversation, in that same moment, he tells them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them," in Luke 22, "and those who exercise over them, uh, call themselves benefactors, as if they're doing some favor [chuckles] to those they rule over."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves." And he goes on, and he talks about conferring the kingdom to them. And he says this: "You are those who have stood by me in my trials-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and I confer to you, on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred a kingdom on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table and sit on thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel." So it seems... I just wanted to put here, when Jesus is speaking to his apostles about that role that he has assigned them-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... he always couches it in terms of service and places it in the context of suffering-

David: Yes

Seth: ... as well.

David: Right.

Seth: And in both of those cases, the m- Jesus's death is on the horizon.

David: Yes.

Seth: When James and John's mom asked that question, Jesus has just prophesied his death, and in the Lord's Supper, obviously, he's only a few days from dying.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I just wanted to place... When it- when Jesus talks about who is an apostle, he's also talking about this elected class of suffering servants-

David: Yep

Seth: ... who will come alongside him.

David: That's right. So when Paul starts defending his apostleship-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in this letter-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... we shouldn't project our views of domineering authority.

Seth: Right.

David: Instead, we should be like, he's fighting [chuckles] to serve this church, to die for this church, to suffer for this church-

Seth: Yes

David: ... which, in fact, is what he has done.

Seth: That's right.

David: Um-

Seth: Yeah, whenever we defend-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... our authority, we assume a type of pettiness-

David: That's right

Seth: ... to that conversation.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And Paul goes to great pains throughout the letter of Second Corinthians to, like, disabuse the Corinthians-

David: That's right

Seth: ... of that notion.

David: Because the apostles are building Jesus's kingdom.... and Jesus built his kingdom as the cornerstone-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... through death, service-

Seth: That's right

David: ... sacrifice.

Seth: That's right.

David: And so if they're going to lay that foundation with him-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... oh, and like a lot of the prophets, they [chuckles] they suffered, wept-

Seth: Yes

David: ... like, went through horrible things-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to serve Jesus, you know, to serve God.

Seth: Yes.

David: Same with the apostles, that they're going to die, suffer, and serve.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Which is interesting, then that's why they're a foundation.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Is, uh, they're low, they're on the bottom.

Seth: Yep, they're serving.

David: They're unseen.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, everything gets built on top of that, but they're the ones at the bottom-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... holding it up-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but by going to the grave. It's interesting, too, that, you know, all the apostles, or at least almost all of them, 'cause we're not, we're not exactly sure what happened-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but um, almost all of them were martyred for their faith.

Seth: Yeah.

David: They died like Jesus, um, uh, or were at-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... least severely persecuted, exiled- [chuckles]

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... you know, and suffered, and so they lived up to this calling.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Jesus said, "If you wanna be my apostle, you're gonna have to-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... serve," and they did.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's what the Church was built on, was sacrifice.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then very practically, too, Jesus's like description of that servant-oriented, suffering-oriented style of leadership actually affects Paul in how he commands people to do things throughout his letters. I thought this was really interesting. There's some... At some moments, Paul can lay down the law-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and he can admit that he is speaking God's own words-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and that people who are truly spiritual should recognize [chuckles] that he is speaking God's own word, and he does this in 1 Corinthians, actually.

David: Yes. Yep.

Seth: He says, "If anyone thinks they're a prophet or otherwise spiritual, let them acknowledge that what I'm writing to you is from the Lord." Uh, but generally, the way that Paul exercises his apostolic power is not by like fiat, like not by command-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or decree, but by like convincing. And so in 1 Thessalonians, uh, when he's describing his ministry, he says this: "We are not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though, as apostles of Christ, we could have asserted our authority."

David: Mm.

Seth: That's 1 Thessalonians 2:6. Paul seems to understand that he has a type of authority to dictate behavior and dictate practice, but that he's also hesitant to use it or act on it. He does the same thing in the Book of Philemon-

David: Yes

Seth: ... when he's talking to a, a, a slave owner-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... about receiving back his, a runaway slave.

David: He's like, "I could command you to do this."

Seth: He's like, "I could command you to do this, but I don't."

David: "I'm gonna plead with you instead, and-

Seth: That's right

David: ... try to convince you."

Seth: And e- and even in 1 Corinthians, when he's admitting that, like, what he's saying is of the Lord-

David: Yep

Seth: ... he's still putting his saying up for judgment. He's saying, "If you are truly spiritual, discern-

David: Mm

Seth: ... whether or not what I'm saying to you is from the Lord or not."

David: He, he's not saying like, "This is just true. Do it"-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... even though he, I guess, has the authority to do that because he is, has been sent-

Seth: That's right

David: ... by Jesus with his authority.

Seth: And even in 1 Corinthians, he equivocates. He's saying, "I don't..." In 1 Corinthians 7, when he's talking to people who are not yet married-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... even eq- he says like, "I don't have a command from the Lord on this-

David: Mm

Seth: ... but I do give you my, uh, like judgment in this matter." And so like Paul is, seems to be aware of the authority that he's been delegated-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and yet it has been shaped by that servant, servant-oriented, suffering quality-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that does not lord it over others-

David: Right

Seth: ... throughout his ministry.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, yes.

David: Yeah, which is exactly what Jesus did in his ministry, right?

Seth: That's right. That's right.

David: Like, it's exactly how he taught. He could have done things very differently, but instead, convinced, spoke, spoke parabolically, suffered with people, endured them, uh, like, let them have wrong thoughts about him-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and continued to tend to them, shepherd them, heal, heal them-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... serve them, and then ultimately die for them.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And his apostles, and then us as his disciples even, are trying to replicate that. [chuckles]

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay, that's helpful. I think I have a, a sense of apostleship now.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, but we have a 13th apostle-

Seth: Oh, yeah

David: ... and one, I believe he says, "untimely born"?

Seth: Yes. In, uh, 1 Corinthians 15, he talks about himself as one untimely born and the least of the apostles because he persecuted the Church.

David: Mm.

Seth: Um, so Paul recognizes that he is, uh, outside the 12, [chuckles] you know, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and if it's right, like we talked about, like, there was, like, 12 tribes of Israel.

David: Mm.

Seth: There's a new 12, 12 leaders representing the new covenant community that God is building. To add a 13th is out of step with that 12 numerical pattern, uh-

David: Yep

Seth: ... that seems to be representative or seems to be important to the original apostles.

David: Yep.

Seth: So, like, Paul recognizes that.

David: Oh, totally, but the, the fact that there's a 13th just coincides with his calling, is one outside Israel, the Gentiles-

Seth: That's right

David: ... the extra one that-

Seth: So-

David: ... goes to the nations

Seth: ... Paul, as I think most people know, was a pers... like, was, was originally against the original apostles.

David: Yes.

Seth: He had a sustained campaign to kill and persecute the churches the apostles and their followers were planting-

David: That's right

Seth: ... after the day of Pentecost.

David: Yeah, as a Jewish Pharisee.

Seth: As a Jewish Pharisee.

David: Defending the law.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But he, as he's traveling on his way to Damascus to, you know, take out whoever's next on his hit list, he has this amazing experience on the road to Damascus, where a bright light shows up. Jesus speaks to him directly. He goes blind, and this is actually important autobiographically because it comes up in 2 Corinthians.

David: Mm.

Seth: He goes blind-... he finds his way to a follower of Jesus in Damascus, named Ananias, who prays for Paul. Blindness goes away, he receives the Holy Spirit, and the next thing- story we hear is that he's preaching the gospel in the synagogues.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But one really important verse is Acts 9:15, and Ananias is debating whether or not he should pray for Paul.

David: Yeah.

Seth: 'Cause presumably, Ananias might be on the hit list-

David: Totally

Seth: ... that Saul [chuckles] is coming to, like, enforce. Uh, but God tells Ananias, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of mine to bear my name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. And for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my sake."

David: Mm.

Seth: And so Paul's ministry begins as one to those outside Israel.

David: Yes.

Seth: And Paul self-identifies that throughout his letter.

David: Yeah, very clear understanding of his commissioning.

Seth: That's right. So the reason there's a 13th is because it's an admission that the full people of God are not-

David: Just the 12 tribes of Israel

Seth: ... not the 12 tribes of Israel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so he is one doing the ministry of bringing the gospel to bless the entire world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he's a necessary part of what, even in the Old Testament, like-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the 12- the, the 12 tribes of Israel were supposed to be a beacon of light to the rest of the world, and they would come and, like, experience the goodness of God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And Paul is an ambassador of that kind of, like-

David: Light

Seth: ... that light-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the world.

David: That's cool.

Seth: Uh, which is fascinating.

David: And so one of the places he took his light was the church in Corinth? [laughs]

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: That's, that's exactly right. [laughs]

Seth: That's exactly right. Yes, so Paul begins, as he's, like, traveling, he ends up in Corinth and spends a year and a half there planting a church.

David: Yep.

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what he's teaching, how he's leading the Church-

Seth: Yes

David: ... what he said about sexual immorality-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and, um, division, and the gifts, and it's the content of his message-

Seth: That's right

David: ... is also on the line. How he is laying a foundation for the Church-

Seth: Yes

David: ... is also needing to be, like, established as good-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and true and authoritative.

Seth: Maybe another way to say it even more strongly-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is like, it, to deny Paul is to deny the gospel, and so he's, he says somewhat-

David: And by the gospel-

Seth: I-

David: ... we mean the way of the Kingdom.

Seth: The way of the Kingdom, and, like, the truth, that salvation is only found in Jesus Christ-

David: Okay

Seth: ... through, like, that, that-

David: Okay

Seth: ... like, all, like, the death, burial, resurrection, the Kingdom-

David: Okay

Seth: ... of God is established.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: All of that.

David: Okay.

Seth: Like, Paul is the messenger of those things.

David: Yes.

Seth: And to deny Paul is to deny the message of Jesus, like-

David: Yes, and I, and I'm, uh, uh, yeah, I think I'm almost there.

Seth: Yes.

David: And, and that's because-... um, one, I guess, is the thing I'm just less comfortable with-

Seth: Yes

David: - that I need to get comfortable with, is because Paul was sent by Jesus.

Seth: That's right.

David: And, [chuckles] like, that's-

Seth: That's right

David: ... that's the part that I'm less comfortable with for some reason. I don't know why. And then the other part-

Seth: Yes

David: ... is because his message actually is cruciform. It is in the shape-

Seth: Yes

David: ... of the cross.

Seth: That's right.

David: And it actually does represent the gospel.

Seth: The way, the way that Paul defends his ministry is by s- l-

David: It's cruciform

Seth: ... pointing to its cruciformity.

David: Yep.

Seth: And, like, that is his veiled way of establishing his authority as the one who is the rightful proclaimer of the truth.

David: Because it looks like Jesus.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So Paul, and going back to the conversation we had at the beginning, Paul never says, "I'm an apostle, you should listen to me."

David: Right.

Seth: What he says, "I'm a sufferer-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like Jesus was."

David: Yep.

Seth: "So you judge who is the true apostle?"

David: Who's the true apostle? The one who looks like Jesus.

Seth: Who is the one preaching the truth?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, and then Paul even says some- something close to what I'm saying this. He says this in 2 Corinthians, chapter 11, "If anyone comes and proclaims another Jesus-

David: Mm

Seth: ... than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received from us, or if you accepted a different gospel from the one you accepted" So he-

David: Mm.

Seth: So Paul is very clear.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's like, in accepting these false apostles, that's a different Jesus, a different gospel, a different spirit.

David: That is just scary.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Just to think about, you know, we can form Jesus in our own image and believe in one that didn't really exist-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and yet filled with a power that's not his spirit.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It might be, then, I guess, the other version is demonic. Yeah, and then by what force did they do these miracles and signs? Was it the Holy Spirit? Probably not. Maybe it was demonically inspired, and then they're building a different kingdom through a different gospel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so you're building a, a demonic kingdom by demonic powers, preaching a demonic Jesus?

Seth: Yes.

David: Just by

David: having leaders that aren't cruciform shaped.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's-

Seth: Well, and specifically, one sent by Jesus, 'cause that, that's what's-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... on the line. They're disagreeing with-

David: Yeah, right.

Seth: Paul wasn't sent by Jesus. We are.

David: Right.

Seth: If they're dismissing that Paul was sent by Jesus, they're dismissing the words of Jesus.

David: I see.

Seth: Like-

David: So it's not necessarily... The, the analog isn't so proud leaders are super apostles-

Seth: Right

David: ... doing works by the devil.

Seth: That's not-

David: That's, that's-

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: It's, it's people who would say, like, "Oh, I don't, I don't know. I don't think Paul's letters in the New Testament are authoritative."

Seth: That would be closer-

David: That'd be closer

Seth: ... to what's happening-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in Corinth.

David: I think I have a different revelation that supersedes-

Seth: That's right

David: ... the Bible.

Seth: That's right. We have a different authority other than Paul, the one chosen by Jesus.

David: Yeah. That's-

Seth: That's what's on the line.

David: And that feels understandably scandalous to me.

Seth: That's right.

David: Like, as an Evangelical. [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, so that would make sense.

Seth: And that's why Paul... That's why it is so-

David: Yeah. [chuckles]

Seth: That's why it feels like Paul, everything's on the line for Paul in 2 Corinthians, and why there's so much heat behind the defense of his ministry, is because, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the fidelity of-

David: The words of Jesus

Seth: ... the words of Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... are on the line.

David: Yeah. Okay.

Seth: Um, so we've talked around it a whole bunch.

David: Yes. [exhales]

Seth: But the question is, in... So Paul has this really fine line to walk in the book of Corinthians.

David: Yep.

Seth: He has to defend his apostleship-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... while maintaining the quality of a servant-hearted-

David: Yes

Seth: ... cruciform disciple.

David: Yeah, he has to defend his apostleship without sounding like the super apostles.

Seth: That's right, and he, and he even explicitly says, "It is inappropriate for me to boast like they're boasting in their qualifications."

David: Yep. They want me to come and stack up my qualifications next to them and see who does it.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I'm... That's the wrong game to play.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's an inappropriate game.

David: It's inappropriate.

Seth: It's an inappropriate game to play.

David: It's stupid.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He even calls it foolish throughout his letter, uh, as like, "This is just not the way the disciples of Jesus should behave."

Seth: Yeah.

David: However, Paul, being the sarcastic man that he a- is, [laughing]

Seth: [laughing]

David: ... he, he says, like, "Okay, l- just let's just play around for a second. If you're so willing to put up with fools in foolishness, indulge me in a little bit of foolishness."

Seth: "Here's some stupid stuff I could say about myself." [chuckles]

David: That's right. 'Cause, like, if you're, if you're s- [chuckles]

Seth: If you love dumb talk so much, here's some dumb talk.

David: Here's, here's some- something. "I will boast. This is dumb."

Seth: This is stupid!

David: "I know this is stupid. I know it's inappropriate, but let me do this for you." Uh, and then he goes on and starts-

Seth: Listing his qualifications, like the super apostles did.

David: Like, and so playing the game, and at first, it sounds as if he's trading barbs.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? At first, he says this in chapter, uh, 11, verse 22: "Are they Hebrews? Well, so am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one." And then he says, "Again-

Seth: "This is so dumb!" [chuckles]

David: ... I'm talking like a madman." [laughing]

Seth: [laughing]

David: I was like, "This is not the way we have this argument, but, like, just bear with me."

Seth: Since you guys love foolish talk.

David: Uh, "I'm a better one. Why am I a better one?"

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: So this is where he gets to his comparative su- superiority-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to these super apostles. "With far greater labors"

Seth: Like, okay.

David: More-

Seth: I work harder.

David: "Far more imprisonments"-

Seth: Oh, wait, hold on

David: ... "with countless beatings"-

Seth: That's not good. [chuckles]

David: ... "Often near death."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Five times I receive, at the hands of the Jews, 40 lashes, minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods. I was stoned, shipwrecked," and he goes on and on.

Seth: Yeah. [clears throat] And these are the very things the super apostles have been, like, questioning him about. Like-

David: It's like-

Seth: "Hey, your, your guy just keeps getting beat up"

David: ... "Aren't these proofs that we are superior apostles?"

Seth: Yep, and he's like, "No, this is a proof that I'm the superior apostle."

David: That's right. I'm following the way that Jesus taught-

Seth: That's right

David: ... the apostles-

Seth: Yep

David: ... to do ministry.

Seth: A real apostle would suffer.

David: That's right.

Seth: Mm.

David: And then he says this at the very end, "If I have to boast-... I will boast of the things that show my weakness.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then he's gonna go on and say a really famous line in 2 Corinthians, what God says to Paul-

Seth: Mm.

David: -as he is in a particularly weakened state. He says, "My grace is sufficient for you, because my power is made perfect or complete in weakness."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So Paul is saying the reason, ultimately, apostles boast in suffering is it's because in suffering, the power of God is manifest, and that is why I am the superior apostle [chuckles] in this matter. It's like, even though this is a, a dumb way to talk. [laughs] Uh, but that's, that's the argument that he makes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, this is the way of the apostles of Jesus.

Seth: Man, and so I mean, that's... So I guess if we're trying to round out 2 Corinthians, the thing we're supposed to take away from it is

Seth: what?

David: Ah.

Seth: The, like, like the need for an apostle, or-

David: Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... like, how to identify a servant leader, or is it something more around what you're saying here, which is the-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... cruciform shape of our lives?

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm, I'm... Yeah.

David: Yeah. It can be a, a strange book-

Seth: It ca- it is a strange-

David: -to try to read, like I think a lot of us wanna read the Bible, which is like, "So what's in here for me?" [chuckles]

Seth: Right.

David: But-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... well, what do we do with 2 Corinthians?

Seth: I mean, I think, what were the Corinthians supposed to do with 2 Corinthians? [chuckles] It's like they were supposed to be reaffirmed in their confidence in the Apostle Paul-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... as a true apostle of Jesus Christ. And I think this is a salient enough issue that we could still say that this is an important thing. I know a lot of folks that are like, "The Apostle Paul is an inconsistent, co- often contradictory, or like unreliable messenger of the way of Jesus."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Uh, Paul contradicts Jesus. They'll like... You know, they'll, they'll say thing-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Like, the critique of the false apostles is still alive and well.

David: Definitely. I remember when I was, like, just out of college, and I was struggling with believing in my Bible-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and Paul was one of the main reasons.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I really struggled with him, 'cause I couldn't read him as anything other than a still angry Pharisee.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And he just seemed like a bigot.

Seth: Mm.

David: He seemed misogynistic, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He seemed, yeah, like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... inflammatory.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I remember one of my mentors, he just said to me, "Go read Paul again with kinder eyes." [chuckles] And that was great advice.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But better advice maybe- [chuckles]

Seth: [chuckles]

David: ... would be, "Go read 2 Corinthians-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and look at the life of Paul, and see if you still think the same way about him."

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right, and I... So I, I think that's a real live takeaway. It's like the character of the Apostle Paul was being assassinated by some.

David: Definitely.

Seth: And then this is his apostolic defense.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, "This is why I'm a worthy messenger-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of the gospel and why most of the New Testament-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is written by my hand." [chuckles]

David: It's like, super practically, why should you trust the letter in Romans?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Or, you know, why should you obey the moral commands of 1 Corinthians?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Or you know, like, it's-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's interesting. It's because-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... there- we actually had a sent ambassador of Christ-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... who was giving his life to live this cruciform servanthood life to lay a foundation for the Church.

Seth: Right.

David: And there's actually the teaching of Jesus in it.

Seth: What's fascinating is, like, normally when I have conversations about, "Well, why should I trust the Bible?" or, "Why should I trust what Paul says?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like, "Well, because it's the Bible."

David: It's God's Word.

Seth: It's God's Word.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I play, functionally, the authority card-

David: Right

Seth: ... that Paul refuses to play. [laughs]

David: Doesn't play. Yeah, interesting.

Seth: He- like, uh, anyway, I haven't thought about it that much.

David: No, it's fascinating, though.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, well, that's a great question. Let's look at the life of one of its authors.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, let's just-

Seth: The autobiography of Paul-

David: The autobiography of Paul

Seth: ... as an apologetic for the truthfulness-

David: Right

Seth: ... of his words.

David: And let's look at his life, and you tell me if you think somebody could be living this way and writing these things if they didn't actually-

Seth: Right

David: ... have the Word of God in them.

Seth: It's like, and a lot of people who critique Paul love Jesus.

David: Yes.

Seth: And it's like, well, Jesus said his apostles should look like this.

David: Mm.

Seth: Doesn't Paul's life look like what Jesus commanded?

David: That's right, yeah.

Seth: Doesn't he look like a true apostle-

David: Mm

Seth: ... sent by Jesus Christ?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Doesn't it look like he's been changed by an experience with Jesus?

David: Yeah, and it's interesting, too, that you can say that, "And if Paul's life was like that, so were the other apostles."

Seth: Yes.

David: "And if the apostles were like that, well, they share their foundation with the prophets-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because they all have the cornerstone of Christ."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So your whole Bible-

Seth: Is-

David: ... is reflecting this authority.

Seth: Mm.

David: That you look at the life of Moses, you know?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, how he suffered with Israel in the wilderness. You look at-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, the life of so many different people that wrote this book.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like, oh, they all are doing the same thing. They all have this servant suffering-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, you look at-

Seth: Like Hosea

David: ... qualification.

Seth: Yeah, look at Hosea.

David: Yeah, yeah. Look at, you know, look at Ezekiel, and it's like-

Seth: Mm

David: ... they all were doing this kind of Christ-like suffering, serving-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... laboring in the Word of God-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... sent thing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Any- anyway.

Seth: Yes.

David: It's an interesting... It's a different apologetic in the Bible.

Seth: It's a different apologetic for why to trust-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, very, at least, the letters of Paul-

David: Mm

Seth: ... but all the letters that we have from the apostles.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think the other thing is, like, so what do we do with the letter to 2 Corinthians? There's other things in Corinthians we, we didn't touch on, like a whole section on generosity.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But like, as we think about the cruciform nature of those sent by God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the apostles are specifically chosen from among the disciples-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... for this foundational task. However, the Great Commission, uh, John 17-

David: Yep

Seth: ... would also tell us that we are also sent by God into the world-

David: Yep

Seth: ... to live as his ambassadors-

David: Right

Seth: ... proclaiming the gospel of his kingdom.

David: Paul calls us that in 2 Corinthians, right?

Seth: Y- uh, yes!

David: I think like 5 verse 20, "We are therefore Christ's ambassadors-

Seth: Mm

David: ... as though God were making his appeal through us.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God."

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, and-... Well, he might be talking about himself there.

Seth: He is talking about himself.

David: Okay, yeah.

Seth: However, Paul frequently does this, where he- I mean, I think the we is intentional. I think he's referring to himself-

David: Yep

Seth: ... primarily, but not to the exclusion of those who follow him either.

David: Yeah, but yes, I mean, we are- I think we're all called to follow Jesus, that is the way.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And what Jesus told us to do is take up our cross.

Seth: That's right.

David: Like, to, like, that's-

Seth: That is the baseline for following Jesus, he says.

David: Yeah, it's like the apostles weren't the only ones called to take up their cross. They were called to... They were called to teach us-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the way of Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And what he- they teach us is to do these things after him.

Seth: That's right. Yeah, and then Jesus even talks about the way that all believers are supposed to be, to live-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is like to lose their life-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in order to find it, and to pick up their cross and follow him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That is the way that we all exist-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the world. So Paul gave us a really great example to follow, of the types of things that we should be endeavoring to be like in our Christian life, and things that we should be... Like, we should be willing to boast in the things that prove our greatest weakness.

David: Mm.

Seth: And I think that's helpful, because I think in most places, I want to project an image of myself that is better, th- th- that selects the best parts of my behavior-

David: Right

Seth: ... in the recent, in a recent span of time-

David: Yep

Seth: ... as who I truly am.

David: Yep.

Seth: And at, and this is my c- this is why you should hire me.

David: Yeah.

Seth: This is why I should be a, would be a good youth group volunteer. This is why [chuckles] you know, like, I would like, be a sufficient... a missionary.

David: Yep.

Seth: This is why you should send me as a missionary.

David: No one puts the reasons they were fired on their resume.

Seth: That's [laughs] that's right. That's right. And there's, like-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... practical wisdom that we might be running into here.

David: Sure.

Seth: However, I think it's like, I'm frequently embarrassed by those things.

David: Right.

Seth: And I think the critique that the false apostles are bringing against Paul is like, "You should be embarrassed by these things."

David: Mm.

Seth: And that would have carried cultural weight, too. Like, to be imprisoned, to be in prison for five years-

David: Oh, yeah

Seth: ... is cul- even now, is culturally embarrassing.

David: Oh, totally. If I was like, "Hey, I'm David." "Hey, what's up? What's up with you?" "Oh, I've been in prison for the last five years." I've lost so much social- [chuckles]

Seth: Right

David: ... credit.

Seth: Even if I said, "Well, because I was preaching the gospel," I'm still gonna be like, "Oh, well-

David: "Whoa, okay"

Seth: ... that's kind of extreme."

David: It, it takes some-

Seth: There's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in ea- it's like there would be just a, a hump-

David: Yes, to get over

Seth: ... to get over in your interactions-

David: That's right

Seth: ... with that person.

David: Yep.

Seth: It- but those are the things that Paul finds great hope in-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... because those are the places that God proves Himself most powerful.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so I think even there is, like, an invitation to accept the weak and embarrassing parts of our lives and story, as invi- like, places to invite the Lord's power into.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I think that's, like, close to the heart of the wisdom of what-

David: Mm

Seth: ... Paul is saying-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is hoping for power in places of weakness.

David: And so to end, I think we should meditate then on the place where that is most evident, which is the cross-

Seth: Yes

David: ... of Jesus.

Seth: Yes.

David: 'Cause that's what all of this [chuckles] is building on.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So why

David: did... We kind of talked about like, why apostles?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, why a cross? [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, why does God use weakness to show strength? Why, when Jesus calls someone and sends someone, and He puts his ambassadors in the world, why does He say, "The way you must look is like a servant, and you should s- your life should be marked with suffering"?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Is he a masochist? [chuckles] Does he wanna watch us squirm? Obviously not.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So then why the cross, and w- like, why did God manifest his strength through weakness in Jesus dying?

Seth: I mean, Paul s- gives us the answer in 2 Corinthians 4.

David: Wonderful.

Seth: Uh, "We have this treasure"-

David: Mm

Seth: ... referring to the treasure of the Kingdom of God, uh, and the message of Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... "in jars of clay"-

David: Mm

Seth: ... referring to his own fragile body.

David: Yep.

Seth: "To show that, in order to show that, the surpassing power belongs to God, and not to us." The, the reason why God chooses weakness is so that the power of God can be demonstrated on the Earth.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's why.

David: Yeah. [chuckles] He, uh... The, the b- the Biblical story begins with an empty, chaotic, nothing world, and God uses the weakness of that-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to show His strength.

Seth: Yeah.

David: God chooses the smallest, weakest fringe nation to build his worldwide empire.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He chooses a, uh, peasant from Nazareth. You know, He, He incarnates Himself as a peasant from Nazareth-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to die by the hands of a powerful army in the most despicable, disgraceful way, on a cross-

Seth: Mm

David: ... in order to raise Him from the dead and put Him on the highest throne-

Seth: Wow

David: ... to show that He's the one who's powerful, that He's the one who's in control and has all authority-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and can do anything through anything.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, it, it, it can only be God.

Seth: Yes.

David: And He's doing it for His own glory, to show people His love-

Seth: Mm

David: ... His power, His mercy, His goodness.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, yeah.

Seth: And then for us, as God shows Himself off in that way-

David: Mm

Seth: ... here's our experience-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of what it feels like. This is the very next verse. "That means we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "We are perplexed, but not driven to despair. We're persecuted, but not forsaken entirely. We're struck down, but not destroyed. We carry in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus can be manifested in our bodies as well."

David: Mm.

Seth: That's why Jesus chooses weakness, that's why He chooses powerlessness, is so w- in our own bodies, we would experience the power of God-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the world, for the benefit of others.

David: Right, so when people see us suffering but not despairing-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... being struck down but not destroyed-... they see death in our lives.

Seth: Yes.

David: But what they actually see is resurrection and life.

Seth: That's right.

David: And like, what's going on here? It's like, this is the power of God.

Seth: That's- yeah.

David: This is Jesus living in me.

Seth: Yes.

David: Come and taste his mercy and love. [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah. The concluding line, "Death is at work in us-

David: Yeah.

Seth: -but life in you."

David: Oh.

Seth: That's the-

David: So when we- so you're saying, like, we- when we obey this cruciform lifestyle, we get to be Jesus to others-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in a sense. We get to die for them-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... showing the life of Jesus-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and his resurrection power, even in our worst-

Seth: That's right

David: ... weak, suffering times.

Seth: That's right.

David: Which is what Paul did for the church in Corinth, continually. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Even though they yelled at him, and maligned him-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and disob- disobeyed him. Wow, that's really cool. Okay, 2 Corinthians.

Seth: 2 Corinthians.

David: Amazing.

Seth: Yes, that's a, a general overview of the book-

David: Yes

Seth: ... of 2 Corinthians. Next time, we want to go deeper into a very special passage in 2 Corinthians, chapter 2 through chapters 4, which kind of form like a heartbeat that, uh, for Spoken Gospel, for our understanding of the Bible, and, like, the hope of transformation in Scripture. So we're gonna go to a slow work-through of those, that little chapter and a half, uh, next time.

David: It's gonna be fun.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So thank you, guys, for listening and joining us. We will see you next time. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]

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Related Resources

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2 Corinthians Overview: What Is an Apostle?

Show Notes

The Tumultuous Relationship Between Paul and Corinth

What Makes an Apostle Different from a Disciple?

Why Did God Choose This Model?

The Cruciform Nature of Apostolic Leadership

Paul: The Untimely Born Thirteenth Apostle

The Crisis Behind 2 Corinthians

Paul's Counterintuitive Defense

Why This Letter Matters for Us

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Related Resources

Introduction to 2 Corinthians

View our devotional on 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:11

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Listen to the 2 Corinthians Overview: What is an Apostle? podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians: The Unveiled Face podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 6: Do Not Be Unequally Yoked podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 8-9: The Economics of Generosity podcast

Listen to the 2 Corinthians 11-12: Paul's Thorn in the Flesh podcast