Seth: [calm music] almost kind of makes them look the same, short hair, right?
David: [chuckles] Short, yeah.
Seth: But, like, this focuses the church gathered-
David: On the glory of God alone.
Seth: On the glory of God alone-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and not on the pomp of religious circuit, like, religious, like, activity by covering your head-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the men, or the excitement of-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the gods, and-
David: That's right
Seth: ... letting your hair flow.
David: Yeah.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of Scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of Scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our quick series looking at some of the difficult passages in 1 Corinthians, and today we're looking at 1 Corinthians chapter 11, and head coverings for men and women. Seth, what is your, like, background-
Seth: Mm
David: ... with this concept?
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, when you think about 1 Corinthians 11, head coverings, what comes to mind?
Seth: I don't look good in hats.
David: You don't look good in hats?
Seth: That's, like, the-
David: You never wear hats!
Seth: I never- [laughs]
David: That's kind of true.
Seth: I never wear hats.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I remember I was wearing hats as a kid, and I always thought my ears looked too big, so I stopped wearing hats. [laughing]
David: I did- I, I've known you for almost 20 years, and I've never known that.
Seth: [laughing] I'm like, "So I don't wear hats."
David: That's really funny.
Seth: I'll wear a beanie because it covers your ears a little bit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that's about it.
David: But only when it's cold.
Seth: But only when it's cold.
David: Yeah, you're running outside or something.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so-
David: Okay, so you're very obedient to the no head coverings for men.
Seth: I'm... Yeah, I'm, like-
David: [chuckles] You're-
Seth: ... an absolutist. [laughing] Like a no-hat absolutist. [laughing] [laughing]
David: Fantastic.
Seth: Uh-
David: What else comes to mind? [laughing]
Seth: That's it. [laughing]
David: That's it. Okay, great.
Seth: No, I, I mean, I think, uh, this is just... It's always in my mind as a problem passage.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I come to it, like, on edge-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... every time I come to it, and, like, I've got some cultural awareness that head coverings are common in a lot of other parts of the world currently-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and have been so for thousands of years.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh, so, like, wearing, um, uh, especially for women.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so it's like I, I know that.
David: Yep.
Seth: I know the Bible was written at a time when that was common.
David: A very normal thing, yep.
Seth: A normal thing. Uh, and even in when it comes to 1 Corinthians, there might even be a sense that, like, a head covering kind of functioned like, like a wedding ring would today.
David: Mm.
Seth: That was-
David: Sure
Seth: ... kind of what I've heard.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's like, you know, it's like it's a symbol that a woman has been taken, and so, like, the veil was a sign of her unavailability in the same way a-
David: Her veil-ability.
Seth: Uh [laughing] oh, wow.
David: [laughing]
Seth: I did not even catch that. [laughing]
David: Could not help myself.
Seth: [laughing] Uh, yeah, and so in the same way a wedding ring would do, do today. It's like-
David: Yeah, sure. Yeah
Seth: ... you know, so that's why Paul is saying, "Wives, you should wear a head covering-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because you, you know, you, you belong to your husband, and stop advertising yourself as available when you're not."
David: There you go.
Seth: So I've heard that.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then I know this passage gets weird and thorny because it talks about men's relationship to women and God's relationship to himself-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, and maps those two things next to each other-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... in ways that feel complicated. Um, so that's what-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... and I haven't studied this passage deeply-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, in a long time.
David: Well, I'm excited to talk about the head coverings.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm most excited to talk about what you just said about God and Jesus's relationship-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and man and woman's, and how those map onto each other.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause that has become the most beautiful part of this passage to me. [chuckles]
Seth: Well, that feels like the one that's most controversial to everybody.
David: It won't be by the end of it.
Seth: So-
David: I think we'll all be worshiping. [chuckles]
Seth: I'm so excited.
David: It's gonna be great. So, okay, so again, we kinda set this up, uh, in the last episode, um, about Corinth-
Seth: Mm
David: ... being this pagan Greek city, and a lot of the pagan Greek practices were making their way into the church. So we talked about how, uh, food sacrificed to idols, they were being... They were having communion with demons in the temple-
Seth: Right
David: ... and then going to church and having communion with Jesus and the Lord's Supper.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, let's figure out what the relationship between these two meals is for you guys.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, after, uh, the passage here on head coverings, he's gonna talk about another practice that's made it into the Christian church from the pagan temples, and it's that the rich would go to the pagan temples. They would overeat to the point of vomiting-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... and they would overdrink to the point of getting drunk.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, now they're using the Lord's Supper for that.
Seth: Okay.
David: And they're having- they're turning communion into a vomitorium-
Seth: Awesome
David: ... drunk fest.
Seth: Wow!
David: So that's not good.
Seth: I have always wanted a little bit more wine during communion.
David: It's, it's very small. [chuckles]
Seth: It's pretty small.
David: It's very, it's very small.
Seth: I want a little more bread-
David: But not that much
Seth: ... a little bit more wine-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but not that much. [chuckles]
David: Just, just enough.
Seth: Just enough.
David: Yeah. I think it's very helpful to know that that is the context right now for this, this whole diatribe that Paul is on, is he's trying to get the pagan out of the Corinthian Christians-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and get Christ into them.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, and so one of the-
Seth: The things that the Corinthians would have assumed were normal when it relates to worshiping God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is like, "Oh, these things are not helpful [chuckles] in worshiping Jesus."
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Or in fact, they could be exactly counter to-
Seth: Okay
David: ... worshiping Jesus. So one of the things that would happen, uh, in a pagan temple were head coverings would be used.
Seth: Okay.
David: So you're absolutely right, and I think it's extremely helpful to talk about the ubiquity, the nor-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the normalcy of head coverings-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Roman society, Greek society, Jewish society [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, all throughout this time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, especially for women, it was very, very common, and you can find it all throughout, um, ancient writings. Women would cover their, their heads, both just as a sign of modesty, and we'll talk about that in a little bit-
Seth: Mm
David: ... about why that was modest.... but also, yes, as like a wedding ring.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like, "I'm taken, I'm not available."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And maybe even the type of veil would change-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... based on if you were being modest as a, as an-
Seth: Right
David: ... unmarried woman.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, or if you were completely covered as a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as a married woman. You're taken.
Seth: And even now, there's something like, of that kind of like, divide between like, availability and unavailability in like, Muslim cultures.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, I understand this from just-
David: Yep
Seth: ... my, from, from Muslim folks.
David: Great.
Seth: It's like, when you hit puberty, that's when you put on the hijab.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, there's something that happens.
David: Yep.
Seth: There's something sexual-ish-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about, and the, a modesty is like, you know?
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, absolutely. So it's, it's, it's a very... I just think, can we, can we commonize this just a little bit here-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and not be like, "What are these head coverings?" [chuckles]
Seth: Can I ask a question about why it's common? Is it just cultural practice-
David: Okay
Seth: ... or is it, um, like, religiously motivated? 'Cause this is, isn't this a passage where he said, "Because of the angels?"
David: Yes, we'll get there.
Seth: Okay, but so, uh, the reason I ask-
David: Yes
Seth: ... I'm just, like, pushing this here, is like, is this just like, "Hey, we've been doing this for thousands of years?"
David: Okay, great.
Seth: Or is it like, "No, the gods demand-
David: Ah, okay
Seth: ... this type of thing?"
David: We could have a whole episode about cultural head coverings through the ages-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that I would be very bad at leading. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Okay.
David: I don't know.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I know what's happening in Corinth-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in the first century, so I can only talk about that.
Seth: Then let me ask this question.
David: Yep.
Seth: Would the average woman in Corinth been doing this, like, "This is what everybody does." Is that what she would think?
David: Yes.
Seth: Or it's like, "I'm doing this because the gods want me to."
David: Okay, good. Yes. So, uh, the average woman in Corinth would, in public, be wearing a head covering-
Seth: Okay
David: ... because, yes, that is the normal thing to do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, I don't think that they would typically actually tie deity to it.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and let me just, let me just explain a little bit about what's going on here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, uh, a- and what's, what's funny-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is I did, I did way too much reading around this idea. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Okay.
David: Uh, so I have more information to share than I need to, [chuckles] but there's some... a few things that came to the surface for me. One is it became such a big deal in the Roman Empire that women should cover their heads-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and we're gonna get into why.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, that they would actually, Rome employed as part of their official, like, part of their army, or like-
Seth: Okay
David: ... their government. Uh, like, I, I can't remember the name of it. There's a Latin name, kind of-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... or a Greek name for it, but it's, [chuckles] it was basically like the morality pol- police, or like the modesty police.
Seth: Oh, hilarious.
David: And if you walked around with your head uncovered, you would get in trouble.
Seth: By, like, Roman law.
David: By Roman law.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Yeah, and they had em- people on their employ that were the-
Seth: So it was just-
David: ... modesty police.
Seth: So it was just called... It was considered immodest?
David: It was... Yeah, definitely.
Seth: Okay.
David: And let me explain a little bit of why.
Seth: Okay.
David: I'll try to be sensitive here.
Seth: Okay. Oh, gosh. [chuckles]
David: Uh, but no, it's, it, it is, it's a little strange.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, so, um-
Seth: 'Cause like, when I think, when you say modesty-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I'm just thinking, like, um, cultural values around what is considered appropriate. "Oh, it's not appropriate to cover your head," it, in the same way that it's not appropriate to show your ankles, or it's not appropriate-
David: Sure
Seth: ... to wear a bikini. Like, there's just different-
David: Yeah.
Seth: But you... When you say sensitive, it makes me think- [chuckles]
David: There's something else on the line here.
Seth: There's something else on the line other than-
David: So-
Seth: ... cultural
David: ... so there's something biological and medical on the line here-
Seth: Okay
David: ... with head coverings for women in this time. So, um, the hair of a woman-
Seth: Okay
David: ... was seen, in this time, as a sign of her fertility.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and if you read, um, Hippocrates-
Seth: The like-
David: ... like the father of modern medicine-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... kind of guy, like the Hippocratic Oath-
Seth: Yes, yeah
David: ... that guy?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Um, he, he wrote and talked about how the hair of woman was hollow.
Seth: Okay. [chuckles]
David: And-
Seth: Is that true? That's not true, is it?
David: No.
Seth: Okay. [laughing] I was like, "None of this is-" [laughing]
David: Medically accurate.
Seth: [laughing] Like, I don't know women's hair, but like, my hair is not hollow, I don't think.
David: And the more hair she had-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the bigger and more volumous-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it was-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, she had more room to receive the seed of a man.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so she had the-
Seth: Okay
David: ... capacity to receive-
Seth: Okay
David: ... um, fer- fer- fertilization.
Seth: Yeah, like, uh, the other... It's like, wide hips would be the other one.
David: Oh, yes!
Seth: Or large breasts.
David: That's right.
Seth: These would be the other-
David: Signs of fertility.
Seth: Signs of fertility.
David: Yeah, there you go.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah. Um, and so hair became this sign of being able to receive seed. So much so, that they actually had these practices where they would, um, have like a suppository-
Seth: Oh
David: ... given to a woman.
Seth: Okay.
David: And then, and it would be scented-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and they would smell her hair to see if the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... connection was made.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And if the smell was in her hair, they would say, "Oh yeah, she is fertile."
Seth: Okay.
David: And so there's this-
Seth: Wild
David: ... I'm just saying there's this-
Seth: Wild, wild, wild
David: ... deep connection-
Seth: Between fertility and hair
David: ... between fertility and hair.
Seth: Got it.
David: Okay. Um, in the same way, men would not want long hair.
Seth: Oh.
David: And you can understand why-
Seth: Because you-
David: ... without me connecting the dots? [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's because it would, I mean, yeah.
David: You don't wanna show that you're receiving the, that-
Seth: Right
David: ... that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Although homosexual practice was common-
David: It was
Seth: ... in ancient Greece.
David: Yeah, and if you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if you had long hair, maybe it was a sign-
Seth: Ah
David: ... that you were ready for that.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay.
Seth: Fascinating. Okay.
David: That's the background here.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay. And it's, yeah-
Seth: I mean, Hippocrates was a couple hundred years before, uh, this-
David: Yes
Seth: ... letter.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But like, that, that culture remained-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to that day.
David: Yep.
Seth: Which is why maybe the... So the head covering thing is in the same way. It's like, "This is why we wear f- flowy dresses, and uh- [chuckles]
David: Yeah
Seth: ... whatever else."
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, now, that's the outside the temple Greek/Roman thing.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay? Now, in order to understand what's happening in this passage, we have... 'Cause all that would be totally fine, I think, for the common practice of the church.
Seth: Yep.
David: It's like, "Yeah, just keep wearing your head coverings and be normal."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, the problem was-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these, these things got twisted inside the pagan temples.
Seth: Okay.
David: So when people would go to worship inside these Greek pagan temples, the roles would reverse, in a sense. Men would start covering their heads, and women would uncover their heads.
Seth: Okay.
David: And we're, we'll get into why.
Seth: Okay. Uh, I can guess why women would uncover their heads.
David: Why? What's your guess?
Seth: My guess is like, "This is, this is a time for revelry and partying-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and I'm, I'm ready."
David: That's right.
Seth: And for men, I don't understand why they would cover their heads.
David: Yes. Okay, so yeah, let me, let me double-click on the one that's a little easier.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The, the women one. Yes, um, in these temple cults-... um, fertility, sexual exploration, um, revelry was, like we talked about in our last episode-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a way to, um,
David: un-inhibit the flesh-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and, uh, elevate the spirit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... while at the same time, gaining the attention of the gods, because they're nasty, too. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so, and, and if I f- if I, if I fertilize-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a cult prostitute, like a woman in a temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... perhaps the gods will fertilize my land with rain.
Seth: Yep. Yep.
David: So there's this connection with sex and the land-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that they had.
Seth: There was something, I mean, just to say, there was something, like, voyeuristic about what was happening, happening in the temple for the gods, and it was- it functioned like some sort of, like, pornography-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for the gods.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if you could sufficiently excite the gods-
David: Yeah, okay.
Seth: They would give you what you want.
David: I, I'll pay, I'll pay for that service.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. Um, so that's kinda what's happening there. And the women with the, with, like, long hair, who would do this, they were-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they were kind of upper echelon, kind of in the temple.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, there was also another group of women in the temple who had the exact opposite of this. They had shorn hair.
Seth: Okay.
David: They had shaved their heads.
Seth: Okay.
David: This was a sign that they were available for sexual exploitation without the risk of fertilization.
Seth: Okay.
David: So you could sleep with them, and they wouldn't get pregnant. How do you know that? They have no hair.
Seth: Okay.
David: They can't receive your fertilization.
Seth: Okay.
David: So that's why we cut their hair off, 'cause they can't get pregnant now.
Seth: So-
David: And so women who were sold into sexual slavery or who were full-time cult prostitutes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the temples, would often have shaved heads.
Seth: Okay, so the women who went there voluntarily would be the ones with the, the, the wild hair, taking their, their veils off, and then there would be
Seth: sex slaves, essentially, in the temple, or perhaps it was voluntary. I don't, I don't know-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... how that worked.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But they would be, "Uh, this is my job here."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so that was, like, a sign of almost, like, prostitution would be-
David: Yep
Seth: ... a shaved head.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, and there is gray area here. We're, we're, h- we're historically reconstructing.
Seth: Okay.
David: We don't have detailed accounts of all of this in antiquity, but we have enough information to piece together some things. I just wanna say, like, don't concretize this as, "This is exactly how it worked histor- historically."
Seth: But these are the types of things that were happening-
David: Yes
Seth: ... around this time.
David: Yeah, it's enough context to understand what's happening in Paul, not enough to historically and accurately reconstruct-
Seth: What happened-
David: ... what happened
Seth: -when Paul was look around and-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... maybe, whatever.
David: Yeah, and, like, and so historians disagree about the particulars, but the context remains the same.
Seth: Okay.
David: So, like, some people say that women with long hair in the temples, uh, who unveiled themselves were the high priestesses, that they had great power in the temples.
Seth: Fascinating. Okay.
David: Not... But others say, "No, these were just men's wives, and they wanted to impregnate them in the temples so that they would- the gods would see and then impregnate their land."
Seth: Okay.
David: "Or that they might have a higher chance for fertilization in the temple than outside the temple."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: So again-
Seth: Okay
David: ... v-
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: There's so many different reconstructions, but you can see the point-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of, like, where Paul's gonna land with this stuff.
Seth: Hair equals fertility.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Shorn hair equals, like, ex- like, sexual opportunity without ex- without the possibility of fertility.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, so then men would never cover their heads in public, um, you know, like, as a sign of modesty.
Seth: Just like me.
David: Just like you. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: If they, uh, if they ever covered their heads-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, it was a sign of authority.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so they would take part of the bo- the bottom to- part of their toga-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and they would lift it up over their head. What's interesting is, in Corinth-
Seth: Like, like, like, what, the, while they were wearing it?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Okay.
David: There was enough extra fabric.
Seth: Okay.
David: They weren't, they weren't flashing. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: Yeah, no, there was enough extra fabric.
Seth: This is a weird flex, man, but okay. [laughing]
David: [laughing] But they would take-
Seth: Like-
David: ... extra fabric-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, and wrap it over their heads-
Seth: Okay
David: ... as a temporary head covering, and it, they usually did that as a sign of, of authority.
Seth: Okay.
David: Now, in Corinth, there is a statue that we actually know was there-
Seth: Oh, fascinating
David: ... around this time, and it was of s- a Caesar.
Seth: Okay.
David: And, um-
Seth: He's doing this?
David: ... and Caesar is doing this, k- this work.
Seth: Can I see a photo of this?
David: Christine's holding it up over here. [chuckles]
Seth: Fascinating! Okay.
David: So you can look it up. Yeah, he's a high priest of Rome. Pontifex Maximus is what Christine just said. She pulled it up.
Seth: Okay.
David: So yeah, so you can Google that-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and you can see the statue.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and so he does this.
Seth: Okay.
David: He pulls up his to- his toga over his head to show it's this blended role of authority and o- of, like, political and religious authority. So he is Pontifex Maximus, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, but he's also, uh, over the religious institutions, too. So there's this head covering that men would do in the temples that showed a religious authority inside of it. So-
Seth: Okay
David: ... often what this would look like is, when they would pray or prophesy in their, in their temples-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or lead temple worship in these pagan temples-
Seth: Ah
David: ... men would, would cover their heads to show, "Hey, I am now hearing from the gods, and I am operating-
Seth: In my priestly f-
David: ... in my priestly function as an, as a pagan authority-
Seth: Okay
David: ... here in this pagan temple." And so that's what, that's what they would do. Now, a few things are happening there. One, some people think, again, historical reconstructions abound.
Seth: Sure, sure. I'm just learning a whole bunch about the different ways people covered their heads.
David: Oh, I know it, man. Welcome to my last month. [laughing]
Seth: The difference between baseball hats and cowboy hats in ancient Greece. [laughing]
David: This is it. [laughing] And so-
Seth: And the pointy hats that-
David: The pointy hats
Seth: ... they're like the, you know-
David: Adonce?
Seth: Like the, the pope wears.
David: Oh, that one. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, like we, we, we have religious...
David: We have religious hats.
Seth: We have religious hats.
David: Yes, we do.
Seth: That's all I'm saying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: I wear many religious hats. [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: No, okay. Um, so, uh, one reason the men would cover their heads is as a sign of authority.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so a lot of times, people think that it was only the wealthy or the socially influential who would perform this sign in the temple, and so not only was it a sign of religious authority, but social authority.
Seth: Right.
David: And so it was usually the wealthy, the well-off, those with a lot of-
Seth: And presumably because when you go in the temple, you're functioning... This is a religious space.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so I'm taking on a religious role here. I'm take- whether I'm a woman, I'm taking on the role of the fertile one-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in hopes of fertility, and as a man, I'm taking on the role of-... uh, uh, f-
David: Oh, I'm glad you're searching for it, 'cause we- we're about to talk about it.
Seth: Of, like, priestly authority or, like, the, the presider over the feast or something like that.
David: So, or-
Seth: Okay.
David: Here's the other idea, is they're covering up their humanity to stand in for the gods. They're veiling their humanity-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to show that there's actually another power at play, and this- Paul's gonna pick up on this. This is why I'm double-clicking on it.
Seth: So say it, say, say it again.
David: So they are covering up their heads to veil their humanness, their bodies. Again, remember Plato-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this Platonic Greek view, body bad, spirit good, and so they're covering up their bodies, so you can't see them.
Seth: But who can't... I mean, I could s- but the-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the... It's a symbol, right? You cover up your head to veil the humanity.
Seth: Just, like, to, like, shroud your shape.
David: To shroud your shape.
Seth: Okay.
David: And as a sign that, "Now I'm not David anymore."
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: "I'm a th- I'm the god-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... that's in this temple, and I'm representing them, or I'm hearing from them." Or sometimes, some people say they would wrap the shroud around their heads as a way to say that they, their ears-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... were covered from the prayers and the noise around them, and they could only hear the voice of their gods.
Seth: Okay.
David: So there's all of this, like, suppression of the mortal, of the physical, to elevate the supernatural.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so there's authority, priesthood, the degradation of the body for the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... elevation of the spirit.
Seth: Okay.
David: All of that is kind of happening-
Seth: Okay
David: ... when a man covers his head in a religious service.
Seth: Would men always cover their head in religious service?
David: No.
Seth: Okay.
David: Only those who were acting in authority.
Seth: Okay, so not if you went into one of these Corinthian events-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in the temple, not all the men around the table would be doing this, but-
David: Again, historical reconstruction's difficult, but most sources I s- I found.
Seth: There would be at least one or two men-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who function as, like, the high priest in that moment or something.
David: In that moment, and then it might shift, and somebody else might take over.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: Or, and some people said that this is what all men did.
Seth: Okay.
David: But-
Seth: In- interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: But that's what men di- the point here is in pagan temples, women unveiled their heads, and men veiled their heads.
Seth: Okay.
David: So you come in then to 1 Corinthians 11, and like it's happening all throughout Paul's letter-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to the, to the church in Corinth, they are bringing pagan practices into the Christian Church.
Seth: Mm.
David: Well, they're doing this now. They're coming into a Christian church like, "Oh, I know what to do in a religious service." So the women take their veils off-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the men cover their heads.
Seth: Okay, makes sense.
David: It's like, "You're being pagan!"
Seth: It, it would be equ- I mean, this is a dumb example, but, like, I've been, visited mosques before-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where, like, I have to take my shoes off.
David: Yes.
Seth: And if I'm with women, they have to cover their heads.
David: Yep.
Seth: So that's what you do when you enter a mosque.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so if you're a tradit- you're used to coming to mosque, and you show up at my church on Sunday morning, and you take your shoes off, I'm like, "Oh, you don't have to-
David: You don't have to do that here. [chuckles]
Seth: You don't have to do that here. [chuckles]
David: Yeah, sure.
Seth: Yeah, okay.
David: Right, so they're bringing a different religious practice-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... into the Christian church.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so they're being pagan. So at the very, very least, [chuckles] this passage is talking to us about how not to bring syncretistic pagan practices into the Christian Church, at the very least.
Seth: Okay.
David: There's a lot more going on, but at the very least.
Seth: Okay.
David: So let's kinda... This is short enough. This is 16 verses.
Seth: Okay.
David: So let's just read through it.
Seth: Okay.
David: Now that we have... We just needed all this context. [chuckles]
Seth: Can I interrupt, as I have questions?
David: Absolutely.
Seth: Okay.
David: Please.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yes, so, uh, verse two of chapter 11: "Now, I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain, uh, the traditions even as I delivered them to you." So he's like, "You're doing a good job."
Seth: Okay.
David: Kind of. [chuckles]
Seth: He's like, he's buttering him up.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: He's like, "We're, we're on the right road, guys." [chuckles]
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: He goes, "But," verse three [chuckles]...
Seth: Okay.
David: "I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, or the head of woman is man."
Seth: Okay.
David: That's a translation choice.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and the head of Christ is God.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay?
Seth: Uh, why h- husband and wife here?
David: Um, so, uh, the, uh, based on context, you can usually know if he's talking about man or woman, husband and wife. A lot of times, those are the same Greek word.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so you, you-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... the interpreters here have to take a guess. Does he mean man and woman, or does he mean husband and wife?
Seth: Oh, I guess I meant why the relational dynamic here. It's like, why is he talking about the relationship between man and woman?
David: Oh, why is he bringing that up?
Seth: 'Cause we've been talking about the relationship between the gods and humans. Like, women open up their hair to, like, express fertility, and when men cover it, to express, like, divine power in some sense.
David: Mm.
Seth: But, like, when they did that in the temple, like, how did men and wo- I guess maybe just draw the lines for me a little bit.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Well, let's remember, you and I were having a conversation about context and background.
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: We're now jumping into Paul's argument.
Seth: Okay.
David: So that's not on the line yet.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right, he hasn't brought this up yet.
Seth: Okay, okay.
David: So he hasn't breached the topic yet.
Seth: Okay.
David: So he's just starting here, and so I think he's starting here with, "Let's talk about the right relationship between men and women."
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, I think that's... He's like, "We're... That's, that's the next thing we're gonna talk about."
Seth: Okay.
David: "I want you to understand that there's an, a right ordering in relationships-
Seth: Okay
David: ... between men and women."
Seth: Okay.
David: And so he starts to lay that out. "I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
Seth: Okay.
David: So he's talking about this, this ordering of relationship between man, woman, Jesus, God-
Seth: Okay
David: ... or woman, man, Jesus, God.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and we can come back to this, or you can double-click now.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: What do you wanna do? You wanna keep-
Seth: Well, I th- I think, i, on the broadest level, all we're saying is, like, there's a right way to relate to God and to one another.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and the... I'm assuming the word head is loaded here-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because we've been talking about head coverings.
David: Yeah, he's a- or he's about to talk about head coverings.
Seth: Or he's about, he's about to talk about head coverings.
David: Yes, he's about to talk about head coverings.
Seth: Okay.
David: So I think... I'm not... I, I promise I'm not jumping over this.
Seth: Yes.
David: We'll come back to it.
Seth: Okay.
David: I just think it's more beautiful to kinda end on.
Seth: Okay, great.
David: Uh, okay.
Seth: Great, great.
David: So we will come back to this, 'cause I wanna unpack what that means. Um, "Every man," so this is verse four, "Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head."
Seth: ... so he dishonors God.
David: Oh, interesting! I actually hadn't put that together.
Seth: Oh, fas- well, I mean, he just said, "The head of every man-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right
Seth: ... is Christ or God."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: You're absolutely right. I guess I did put it together, just not in those words. So yes, the idea here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, um, if a man covers his head, and he's gonna get into it here in a second. Hold-
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: We'll jump to it. If a man covers his head, he's dishonoring Christ-
Seth: Okay
David: ... because Christ is his head.
Seth: That's right.
David: And he's gonna go on to say... Let's just jump to it here. It is verse seven: "For a man ought not cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God."
Seth: Okay.
David: So whereas-
Seth: Wow
David: ... the priests in the temple-
Seth: Would hide their image
David: ... would hide their image to elevate a, an invisible or idol god.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "No, no, no, men, humans, I made you in my image."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "You already bear my glory.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Don't cover it up."
Seth: Okay.
David: "You preach a sermon-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... by just not covering up your head."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, "You are my image and glory."
Seth: "Don't hide the fact that you're my representatives out here."
David: Yeah! Display it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay?
Seth: Okay.
David: And so he's pushing against the Plato brain stuff of, you know, body bad, spirit good.
Seth: And even just the cultural practice-
David: That's right
Seth: ... of covering your head and all that that means.
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: He's like, "No, humans are good. I made them. I love them. I died for them. I became like them."
Seth: Okay.
David: "And so don't dishonor the incarnation of Jesus [chuckles]-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... who became human, by covering up your head as a shameful thing."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Don't put shame on the incarnated Christ."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay? That's fascinating.
Seth: It is fascinating, and it's, I mean, it's like... He says it really starkly. Like, when you do that, you dishonor God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The God who made you, the God who formed you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the God who's placed you in this position of presumably church authority.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, you're praying and prophesying-
David: Yep
Seth: ... over the church. Like, you're dishonoring God when you cover yourself in that way.
David: That's right.
David: 'Cause you are, you are preaching a pagan sermon.
Seth: Fascinating.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Because the pa- you're saying like, "Oh, I'm not made in the image of God."
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: On the... Yes, you are!
Seth: Fascinating. Okay.
David: And Jesus was made in the image of man. Isn't that crazy?
Seth: That is crazy.
David: Jesus became man, so that connection again, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you know-
Seth: Yeah, I-
David: Jesus is the head of man.
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, Jesus became like us, so we could become like Him. Like, there's this deep connection-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... between who we are as humans and who God is. He became human, so don't sh- shamefully cover that up, but expose it. So going back now-
Seth: Okay
David: ... um, verse five: "But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven."
Seth: Okay.
David: Thoughts here?
Seth: Okay, okay, so every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered as a sign of fertility and openness to the gods dishonors her husband, or presumably, uh, be, and...
David: Or even Christ himself, 'cause there's, there's a chain.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Right? Or even her own head, her own physical head.
Seth: Yeah. Well, yeah, well, the on- well, the only head mentioned, the head of a wife is her husband. So just like my thinking-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... correct me when I'm wrong. So if a wife, like, displays her fertility publicly, she is dishonoring-
David: Her husband
Seth: ... husband, and it's expressing a sexual availability similar to cult prostitution.
David: Sure. Let- let's, let's, let's drill down there.
Seth: Okay.
David: I think there's more-
Seth: Okay
David: ... but that's really good. So, um, if you had this married woman-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who everywhere else in life would cover her head to show she's not available-
Seth: Yes
David: ... then comes into church and just takes off her veil and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uncovers her fertility hair-
Seth: Yes
David: ... her husband's gonna be ashamed of that.
Seth: Mm, mm.
David: Like, are you telling the whole church that you're available? Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in our context, that wouldn't make as much sense.
Seth: Right.
David: But in this one, it would-
Seth: Right
David: ... it would be very shameful for-
Seth: Yes
David: ... her husband or for all the men present. [chuckles]
Seth: Or if the couple is used to the, the, the, the Greek context-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it would be communicating a type of, like, sexual availability that is endearing the gods to us-
David: There we go
Seth: ... in some way.
David: So I think this is the m... I think this is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... more of, like, the, like-
Seth: Okay
David: ... white-hot center-
Seth: Okay, okay, okay
David: ... of the passage here, is, is in, in unveiling herself, she is saying that Jesus is like the pagan gods-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and that she can worship him the way that she has worshipped the pagan gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That Jesus wants to be incited by sexual availability.
Seth: Mm. Okay.
David: What a, what a horrific idea!
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What a shameful thing to put on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the head of Jesus.
Seth: And Paul literally says that earlier, right, when he talks-
David: Mm
Seth: ... about when you, when you have sex with a prostitute.
David: Yep.
Seth: This is, you're, you're-
David: You're uniting Jesus with that prostitute.
Seth: That, uh, that's right. He, like, he connects those two things earlier.
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, and it's like, do not do that. And he, and then he says, whenever a woman does this and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and unveils her hair in church, it's... He's saying it's the same as if sh- her head were shaven. What's he saying there?
Seth: He's saying it would be as if she's... Well, you said that people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they were sexual- they were prostitutes-
David: Yes
Seth: ... cult prostitutes.
David: That's right.
Seth: So it's like, to express that type of, like, fertil- I don't know, that, that-
David: Fertility in a religious culture
Seth: ... uh, and, and it, you, you would be making yourself like one of these cult prostitutes.
David: Exactly right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep. So you're bringing this horrific pagan practice-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into the body of Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that is-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... disgusting.
Seth: Yes.
David: This is not... The church, we do not practice this sexual worship the way the-
Seth: Right
David: ... pagans do. So keep your head covered-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because-
Seth: That's right
David: ... this is not where we do that.
Seth: This is not how we communicate to our God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... nor how we relate to our spouse.
David: That's right.
Seth: Um, like, this is not, that's not, like, that, tho- the, the rules of the, the, the Greek system-
David: Yep
Seth: ... don't apply here.
David: We are not pagan worshippers, and our God is not a pagan god. [chuckles]
Seth: Okay.
David: He is holy and good and pure. [chuckles]
Seth: Okay.
David: And you're communicating that He is nasty and vile.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right
David: ... do not do that.
Seth: That's right.
David: And also, that's not what He wants for your body.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, He wants to honor your body. You are His glory. [chuckles] Like, you bear His image.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So like, what are you doing? [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: So l- we can keep going here.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, verse six: "For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short." Basically saying the same thing, like-... Hey, it's, it, it's basically if you're gonna act like a cult prostitute, might as well look like one.
Seth: Okay.
David: But since it is disgraceful [chuckles] for a wife to cut her hair short or shave her head, just let her cover her head. So it's like, since you don't want your wife to look like a cult prostitute, just keep your head covering on.
Seth: Since you don't wanna look like a cult prostitute. [laughs]
David: Yeah, exactly! [laughs] Yeah, so just maybe-
Seth: Since you don't want to, like... That's a- you, you, woman, your relationship with not, with God is not based off your fertility.
David: That's right.
Seth: Um-
David: That's- which is really good news. [chuckles]
Seth: Um, or your availability to his voyeuristic gaze.
David: That's right. Cover your... Like, just-
Seth: Cover your head.
David: We don't need to do, we don't need to do this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jesus loves you all the same. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
David: You don't need to do anything. Um, yes, exactly. And then we already talked about, um, man covering their head in verse seven.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and it says-
Seth: And yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... since, uh, he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. So it's an interesting passage here. Um, so m- man shouldn't cover their head-
Seth: 'Cause he's-
David: ... because he's the glory of God, right?
Seth: He's been made in God's image.
David: Don't cover that up!
Seth: Yes.
David: Preach the sermon with your-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... face. Like-
Seth: Pray and prophesy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, but woman is made in the, in the image of man, is the glory of man. And that's a good thing. Like, w- like, I, I think about this as a, as a man-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and I'm like, if I think about a beautiful human, I'm thinking a woman. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: They are more glorious than we are, Seth.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You know what I mean? [chuckles] Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they, like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... they are the glory of man.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's why you hide them. Like, right? Like, that's the idea. Like-
Seth: We hide our wives? [laughs]
David: No, no, no, but that's the idea behind head coverings.
Seth: Oh, I understand. [chuckles]
David: Is they're so beautiful-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... you cover, you cover it up.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: A- and he's gonna... He talk about later in, in chapter 12, when he talks about the spiritual gifts and how we're, we're different parts of the body.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "Think about the most sensitive, most beautiful parts of your body. Don't you cover them up?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, your private parts.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, you don't show those to everybody.
Seth: Mm.
David: The most beautiful things get covered, and so-
Seth: Yes
David: ... woman is the glory of man.
Seth: Yes.
David: But what's the purpose of the church, the gathered church service? Is it to glory in man or God?
Seth: Right. It's glory in God.
David: It's to glory in God!
Seth: Yeah.
David: So keep the worship of God central in the church.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: That's a, an extra bonus of the head covering-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... is let's not focus on what the pagans focus on in their worship. They focus on the beautiful women and having sex with them.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Let's focus on the beauty of God-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... and, and communing with him through his-
Seth: Okay
David: ... his-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... ordained ways.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay?
Seth: L- let me re- read that again, make sure I understood you.
David: Okay. [chuckles]
Seth: So for a man ought not to cover his head since he's the image of the glory of God. You don't need to pr- shroud your humanity-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because you are God's representative on the earth. Uh, be bold about that.
David: Yep.
Seth: Represent your God well.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, represent your God well.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and woman is the glory of man, meaning that she is a glorious part of this creation, and there's s... And maybe may- let me say it maybe a little more scandalously, and maybe the Greeks are onto something, in the sense that
Seth: she is a beautiful thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Sh- she is fertile. She creates life.
David: Right, yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: Like, men do not create life- [chuckles]
David: Right, in the same way. [chuckles]
Seth: ... on the, i- uh, uh, in the same way on this earth. Um, however, there's h- a humility to covering our head, and we wanna focus on the image of Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so in this particular context, let's not bring in the baggage of fertility. [chuckles]
David: Yes.
Seth: Let's not talk about human's capability-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to create life.
David: Right.
Seth: Let's focus on God, the image of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, and he's gonna talk about this-
Seth: Oh, and then maybe, maybe-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a- and just to... 'Cause I w- I immediately started thinking, like, well, man, men and women, he created them-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the image of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: Together in the image of God.
David: Oh, yes!
Seth: So it would be almost as if the hair is a distraction from the image. The, the hair has taken on such a life of its own-
David: Sure, yes. Yeah, good, yeah
Seth: ... that to keep the man's head uncovered and the woman's head covered almost kind of makes them look the same, short hair, right?
David: Short, yeah.
Seth: But, like, this focuses the church gathered-
David: On the glory of God alone.
Seth: On the glory of God alone-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and not on the pomp of religious circ- like, religious, like, activity by covering your head-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the men, or the, the excitement of-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the gods-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and letting your hair flow.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, I think you're onto it.
Seth: Okay, okay. Okay, okay, okay.
David: And so then he kind of, he, he talks a little bit about, um... He unpacks verse eight a little bit more in verse nine, um, or eight and nine, sorry. "Man was not made from woman, but woman from man." So that he's, like, he's talking about why is man the glory of God and woman the glory of man?
Seth: Mm.
David: Well, God made man in His image-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and then He made woman from man, so-
Seth: So woman literally is the glory of man-
David: Glory of man!
Seth: ... in the sense that she, only women birth men. [chuckles]
David: Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] He's gonna talk about that later, too-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is, yeah, really fascinating.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and then neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. Like, uh, you know, "Hey, I've given you this helper-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in the Garden of Eden," right?
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
David: Like, "You are alone and in need of-
Seth: Yes
David: ... a companion.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I made you woman for you to glory in."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and again, just if, if anybody needs this, like, the only other character in the Bible who's called a helper, like woman is, is God Himself.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: So this is not a bad title.
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: It's a very, very good title. [chuckles] And, and, and, and, like, and a man glories in his wife, you know?
Seth: Yes.
David: Adam gloried in Eve. "Oh, at last! Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he gloried in her.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, she's a good creation. I just, like, wanna-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... dispel any bad readings of this.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, okay, so then, "That is why," verse 10, "That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels."
Seth: Okay.
David: Here we go.
Seth: Okay, okay, okay. [gentle music]
Seth: So symbol of authority-
David: Okay, let's talk about that
Seth: ... feels foreign.
David: Yes, it sh- and it should 'cause I don't think it's a good translation. [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, based off of everything we've been talking about.
David: Exactly right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yep. So this word of... The, the word translated here, authority, isn't usually translated authority in this way.
Seth: Okay.
David: It is the same word used for, to talk about the spiritual realm, the authorities.
Seth: Oh, like the, the principalities-
David: The principalities
Seth: ... and powers.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And which makes sense that he says, "because of the angels," so let's just keep in-
Seth: Uh
David: ... the same semantic universe here.
Seth: Okay. So this is why a wife ought to have a symbol of-... uh, t- I don't know what to- what would, what would a good translation be here?
David: Yeah, I don't know-
Seth: Um-
David: ... which is maybe why they've had trouble glossing this, but this is why a s- a, a, a wife might, uh, should have a symbol for the authorities, like, for the angels, or a symbol of-
Seth: Well, let me ask this question.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is the authorities good authorities or bad authorities? Is it, like, demons, and are, are an- is this angels in the good context-
David: Ah
Seth: ... or are we talking about, like-
David: We're, we're gonna talk about that.
Seth: Okay.
David: I, I don't know which one he specifically has in mind for that.
Seth: 'Cause it, it makes it a little more... Like, I think I could understand it quicker if it was negative spiritual powers.
David: Yeah, which I think is maybe an okay way to think about this, because he is hyperlinking us to a kind of negative spiritual story. So this, he is referencing here the story of the Nephilim-
Seth: Oh
David: ... in Genesis.
Seth: Is he?
David: Yes. So what's the-
Seth: Can I, can I say what I thought [chuckles] you were gonna say?
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: 'Cause I was like... Okay, I was like, "If we're thinking about negative spiritual powers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so it's like, this is why women should have a hair co- covering, because she is not worshiping the pagan gods anymore."
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh-
David: Absolutely correct. Yep.
Seth: She's not worshiping the pagan gods anymore. Uh, and then because of the angels, uh, would just be a way to continue to explain that.
David: Yep.
Seth: Why should a woman have a symbol of authority? What a- a symbol that express-
David: It's a, it's a, it's a symbol to the authorities-
Seth: Yes
David: ... about her modesty. She's not sexually available to the spiritual beings.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is what she would... She would do the opposite-
Seth: That's right
David: ... in the pagan temple. She'd take off her veil in the pagan temples to say that she is available for demonized sexuality.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so she's saying, "No, I'm not here for that." [chuckles]
Seth: Fascinating.
David: I do not want spiritual communion through sex in church. [chuckles]
Seth: Which is why this goes back to the story of-
David: Of the Nephilim
Seth: ... the Nephilim, and-
David: Yes, because what happened? The, these an- these spiritual beings-
Seth: Mm
David: ... found the, the, the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the daughters of man, women, attractive-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and wanted to sleep with them.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, and that's exactly the kind of stories that would happen in pagan temples, and what they were trying to even recreate.
Seth: Right.
David: And so they're saying, like, "No-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... we wanna commune with Jesus alone, and not sexually." [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: "That's not how we commune with the divine."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And so I'm- and I don't wanna commune with anybody except Jesus."
Seth: And so that's why maybe authority is a helpful translation, the fact that it's like, "This symbolizes my authority to Christ alone-
David: That's right, yep
Seth: ... and my monogamy to my husband alone."
David: Yes. I just wanted to get there.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I was like, I think it's a good translation, but-
Seth: But
David: we have to understand, what do we mean? 'Cause I think we, as Western 21st century people, can read this and be like, "A symbol of male domination on her head."
Seth: Ah, I understand.
David: Right? Like, authority.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, "I'll submit." It's like, no, no, no, a symbol of-
Seth: Of the right relationship between God and man.
David: Yes. It's like my head-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... belongs to Christ alone. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I, he is my authority alone.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And I do not want anything to do with those nasty pagan practices.
Seth: Yes, and the word head, like, implies that type of authority.
David: That's right.
Seth: So probably, if you're a, if you're a Greek speaker, you're like, "Oh, head implies authority. Head..." or we're talking about the same thing.
David: Well, uh, we're gonna get to that. We're gonna get to that. Um, okay. Uh, let's see. What verse were we in here? Oh-
Seth: Verse
David: ... 10. So now we're in 11.
Seth: 10.
David: "Nevertheless, in the Lord, a woman is not independent of man, nor man of woman. For as woman was made from man, so now man is born of woman."
Seth: Okay, that's what I said.
David: "All things are from God." You said this earlier.
Seth: This, uh, this is like, this is why women are the glory of man.
David: It's one reason, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, one, one reason.
David: But I think another thing that's happening here, is he's rounding out the picture of the relationship between men and women.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "Hey, women came from men, but now men come from women."
Seth: Okay.
David: So if you try to do some kind of, like, "Oh yes, women came from me, I've... I'm superior over her."
Seth: Like Adam, like God, like God pulled-
David: Pulled the rib of Adam
Seth: ... pulled this. Yeah, yeah, okay.
David: It's like, "Well, yeah, man, but now you come from woman, so is she superior?" No.
Seth: Right.
David: All things are from God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, all things are from God. This is the point. And so I think here is where I wanna come into talk about headship.
Seth: Okay.
David: This all things are from God. He's rounding out this picture of like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... yes, women came from men when Eve came from Adam.
Seth: Yes.
David: But now men come from women in childbirth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's rounding out this picture, and all things come from God. So let's go back to the beginning of this chapter and talk about this headship language.
Seth: Okay, okay, okay.
David: Okay. So, uh, he said, "I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of, of a wife is her husband, or the head of w- woman is man-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and the head of Christ is God."
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay, so this word head-
Seth: Yes
David: ... actually, in the first century, did not communicate authority.
Seth: Pause.
David: Okay.
Seth: I deeply disagree with this point.
David: Oh, cool!
Seth: So just, just to like-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to, to, like, just, like, let's maybe talk about this a little.
David: Can we just talk about it on air?
Seth: We can talk about-
David: Yeah, let's just talk about it on air.
Seth: I just wanna, like... Uh, but here's the problem: I'm not educated enough to do, to talk about it today.
David: Well, just, just round out the point. Let me make my point-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... and just add, add other context.
Seth: Okay.
David: So let's just talk about it on air.
Seth: Okay, okay,
David: yeah. Yeah. Okay, so, um, uh, so yeah, uh, and the head of Christ is God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So what I find really interesting here, is there's a lot of scholarship-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... around this idea, that talks about that the, the, the primary definition-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for head in the first century wasn't authority.
Seth: Okay.
David: But there is another primary meaning to this word.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I think it fits the context better.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it's the idea of source.
Seth: Yes.
David: So the idea that, like, the, the head of a river... uh, head of a lake is a river or something like that, right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: That they feed into one another.
Seth: That's right, that's right, that's right.
David: And so this whole idea of, uh, man comes from Christ, and Christ comes from-
Seth: Yes
David: ... God, and woman comes from man, and all things come from God-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... is his point here is unity and oneness.
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: And that he's trying to, to say, in the pagan world, and even in our world today, [chuckles] like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... there's a lot of division around male-female. There's a lot of subordination-
Seth: Uh-huh, uh-huh
David: ... there's a lot of mistreatment.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, but can we just... Can I just show you, even biologically, like, in the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Mm-hmm, there's an interdependency
David: ... there's an interdependency between-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... man and woman. And man comes from Christ-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and woman-... uh, is, is from man, but we're all in God.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And so I think one of the, one of the points he's making here-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in, in how do we understand the right relationship between men and women-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is that we are independently connected to God through Christ.
Seth: Yes.
David: And 'cause a huge point he's trying to make throughout First Corinthians-
Seth: Independently or interdependently?
David: Interdependently.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So sorry, thank you.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Interdependently connected to God through Christ.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, uh, one of the points he's trying to make throughout First Corinthians-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is about unity.
Seth: Yes.
David: There's all this division, and he's like, "Look, we're just one in Christ." So I know out there in the pagan temples, men cover their heads-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to say, "I have the authority."
Seth: Ah.
David: And then women uncover their heads to have sexual authority over men.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There's all this broken relationship.
Seth: Interesting.
David: He's like, "Guys, we're one in Christ." Now, there's, uh, there's another school of thought that talks about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the head as authority.
Seth: Yeah, and I- this is what I'm, I think, more familiar with. I think, um, Preston Sprinkle-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... does a long, I think it's like a four-hour podcast that I listened to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it where he reads every instance of the word head in scripture and in Greek literature-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on a hundred years either side-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of this particular text.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which is fascinating.
David: That is so fascinating.
Seth: Did you, did you hear about... Did you hear about this?
David: I did, yeah, and I... He was actually one that I read a lot for this study.
Seth: Man, so I was like, I was super, super helped by him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I would recommend that podcast.
David: Very good.
Seth: Podcast.
David: Yes.
Seth: If you want four hours of [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: ... somebody talking about... It's, it's not interest- not interesting.
David: It's not interesting. [laughing]
Seth: It's not interesting. What I took away from that podcast was, like, it seems like, while, yes, there are occasions when the word kephale, which is the word head-
David: Mm-hmm. Yep
Seth: ... is used metaphorically-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as it's used here, that it, it can mean source. It seems as if it leans towards-
David: Mm
Seth: ... implying some level of authority.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the reason I bring it up is because I don't believe that authority necessarily implies division.
David: No, and it shouldn't.
Seth: And it shouldn't.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: And so which is why I bring it up here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is like, I think-
David: And I didn't mean to paint that dichotomy.
Seth: You did- you didn't.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: But it's like, even if-
David: Yes
Seth: ... kephale implies a level of authority here-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that wouldn't undermine Paul's point-
David: It would not
Seth: ... in the sense that it's like, because-
David: It should not.
Seth: It should not.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, yes, has there been domination-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... by men towards women-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and women towards men-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... and the gods towards, you know?
David: Yes.
Seth: Right.
David: Rightly ordered authority-
Seth: But rightly ordered authority-
David: Is-
Seth: ... is no threat to the unity of the church.
David: In fact, it can increase it.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, a, a, a well, a, a well-designed authority structure that's healthy in an organization creates unity in that organization.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Yes.
David: We, we understand that.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right. So I, I'd say that like, oh, I think there's more to be said there-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but, like, I think we get the gist.
David: Yes.
Seth: Either it's a symbol of, like, men and women are interdependent and are s- come from God equally-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and come from each other equally.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, they are sourced from one another-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and come from God.
David: Yep.
Seth: Or the other way to say it is, God has instituted good hierarchy. I don't like the word hierarchy, but good and right ordering of relationships between God and humanity-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and men and women and Christ, and even Christ and God. There's some sort-
David: Mm. Yes
Seth: ... of ordered relationship between Jesus on the Earth-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in heaven.
David: So let's talk about that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: 'Cause I think there is something really beautiful there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, uh, you, you look at the relationship between Christ and God, [chuckles] right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and that if, uh, he's like, "Jesus' source is God," or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or, or, "God is the authority of Jesus," or however you wanna word that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, his, g- the, the-
Seth: Head
David: ... head-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of Jesus is God.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um,
David: what, what did that relationship look like, right? Well, God gloried in Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "This is my beloved Son, whom I love."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "In Him, I'm well pleased. I wanna share my kingdom and my glory and my fame with Him. I'm gonna, I'm gonna lift Him up so that His name's above every other name."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, God just glories in the Son.
Seth: That's right.
David: And then what does the Son do? The Son submits to the Father.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And in all things, I only do whatever the Father says."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, "I'm only gonna follow his will."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: "Not my will, but your will be done." And you do have this beautiful-
Seth: Yes
David: ... relationship of headship, whatever that means-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that Jesus is getting his source from the Lord-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or that there's an authority there-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or, and then what? And then the, the source comes back to the head in all glory-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... like, getting lifted up above everything.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And he's like, "Okay, men and women, let's mimic that."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Men, glory in women. Like, glory in your wives."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Like, they are the glory of humanity." [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, they're the crowning achievement of humanity. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, like, uh, glory in them. Like, like, you should, you should lift them up. You should praise them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, they should be well-loved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And women, like, what, what's the response here? Is like, "Man, help and, and come alongside the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, your partner." And there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... there can be this beautiful relationship here.
Seth: That's right. Well, it's funny that now that we say all this, the rhetorical question in verse 13 makes r- a lot of sense.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's like, "Now, with all that in your head," verse 13, "Judge for yourself. Is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered?" [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, and it's like, okay, knowing all this, knowing that, like, God is our source-
David: Yes
Seth: ... our authority-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or, like, knowing that we are meant to image God in the church-
David: Yes. Right
Seth: ... together as men and women-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... knowing that husbands and wives are meant for a relationship with one another, solely not with everybody who would come in the temple.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, knowing all this, knowing that we have this beautiful relationship between God and Christ, what do you think we should do?
David: Yeah. Yeah.
Seth: It's like, it, it's like, it's a... It feels like, oh, the answer's so obvious now.
David: The answer's obvious now.
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the answer... Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, are we trying to commun- like, incite the gods with our fertility?
David: Right.
Seth: Uh-
David: Of course not!
Seth: Of course not.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So judge for yourselves.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is this a good idea?
David: Yeah. Yeah, and then he goes on in verse, 'cause you just read verse-... 13.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep, so in 14, he says, "Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is a disgrace for him?" So-
Seth: Uh, [chuckles]
David: ... what was funny, the first time-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I was reading this, uh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uh, and studying it-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I didn't quite know what part of nature he was talking about.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I was like, and I said, "Well, a lion's mane doesn't prove that."
Seth: Right.
David: And I was like, a lion's mane, like a male lion's long hair isn't a disgrace to him.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: So I was like, "What is he talking about?"
Seth: And I was... Okay, if, let me just go with it.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's like... And I've also, you know, vi- visited cultures where long hair is just seen as a symbol of wisdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, I've, like, I've, like, spent a lot, a bit, a bit of time in China.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like, it's just a little bit... It's, there's more gravitas-
David: Yep
Seth: ... towards folks with lo- long hair.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh-
David: A- and in, in Jewish culture, you take, like, the Nazarite vow.
Seth: That's right, that's right.
David: You might have very long hair.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Paul himself, some th- some think, might have had long hair, having taken the Nazarite vow, possibly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he could have had long hair.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he was Jewish, so they would have expected it.
Seth: Okay.
David: He's talking to a specific culture here, and he's saying, "Hey, you guys know what you think just naturally whenever you see a guy with long hair in Corinth," and this is what we talked about earlier.
Seth: Yes. Oh!
David: Right?
Seth: If, if, if it is a scientific fact, as discovered by Hippocrates-
David: Yes [laughing]
Seth: ... that our hair are hollow receptacles-
David: There you go
Seth: ... for the seeds of the gods-
David: Yes
Seth: ... or men.
David: Or men, yes.
Seth: Uh, se- the seed of men, doesn't nature tell us, doesn't science tell us?
David: That if a man has long hair, he's asking for another male relationship.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And he's like, "I- I mean, you know that... And that's disgraceful, like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... in this context here. Like, you know that that's disgraceful. But if a woman has long hair, it's her glory because women are supposed to bear children [chuckles] and be fertile."
Seth: Women are supposed... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "That's a good thing to be fruitful and multiply." So he, he's kind of just making a natural case for the Corinthians specifically.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you, here's what you consider natural-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... right?
David: Yep.
Seth: And like, if based on your conception of what's natural, don't, don't, don't you agree that it, men should keep their hair short?
David: Yeah. So yeah, he's kind of made, like, several, like, logical and-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... religious, spiritual, even, like, Old Testament arguments. Now he's just making an obvious cultural one.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: He's like, "Put it together here. Do you know what you're communicating, men, if you uncover your hair or have long hair?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and he says, "For her hair is given to her for a covering."
Seth: Oh.
David: So he's even... He's doing another very natural, logical thing again. He's like, "Hey, women have l- like, tend to have long hair."
Seth: Yes.
David: "Uh, isn't that a sign that head coverings are a good idea?" It's just another-
Seth: Oh.
David: "Naturally, when men have long hair, you know what you're thinking."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Naturally, when women have long hair, oh, it's kind of like a- another head covering."
Seth: Okay.
David: "So even nature itself is telling you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that this is, this is logically sound."
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, so he's just trying to make a basic point here.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. "And if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God."
David: So here we go. Here's an important thing-
Seth: Okay
David: ... for people coming to this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'm, I'm wondering if people-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... clicked on this podcast episode-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... wondering what our stance would be for this particular verse.
Seth: Okay.
David: "So if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God."
Seth: Meaning, I don't know why that would be contentious. G- given everything we've said up to this point-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the church isn't a pagan temple.
David: Yes.
Seth: We do not conduct ourselves as the pagans do.
David: That's right.
Seth: The image, the images, like, the images we display with our head coverings matter.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They don't communicate, we... And we don't want them to accidentally communicate what you're accustomed to them communicating. Therefore, women are gonna keep their head covered in our cultural context, and men are gonna keep their head cover, uh, uncovered-
David: Uncovered
Seth: ... in our cultural context.
David: Yep.
Seth: Agreed? Agreed.
David: Yeah, and what he's saying here is, "I don't know of any church that's practicing this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... any other way, Cor- Corinth."
Seth: Yes.
David: "So-
Seth: Oh
David: ... what are you doing?"
Seth: Yeah. So then he's like, "You guys are the only ones doing this."
David: Yeah, you guys-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... are being the weirdos. [chuckles]
Seth: Fascinating.
David: We don't have any other way of practicing head, head coverings-
Seth: Ah
David: ... in any church-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... other than men uncovered, women covered.
Seth: Mm.
David: 'Cause it's such a normal cultural practice.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you guys are doing it weird 'cause you're bringing your pagan practices into the church, so stop it.
Seth: And specifically Corinthian, perhaps?
David: Yep.
Seth: Is that like-
David: It could be.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But, like, at least in our New Testament canon-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... right? He, there could have been seven other churches doing this, and this line would still stand.
Seth: Yes, yeah.
David: Uh, he's like, you know, uh, you, you, I, I think of like, a, like a kid on a playground, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Who's, who's throwing rocks. Like, you know, if-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... if one of my kids were throwing rocks on the, on a playground, all the other kids are playing nicely. I'd be like: "Ezra, you're the only one out here throwing rocks."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, there might be other playgrounds around-
Seth: Yes
David: ... where kids are throwing rocks, you know, so [chuckles]
Seth: Well, it's funny, I mean, I, I, I've never read this verse this way. Because when I read it, "If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God." So I've always kind of assumed Paul is, has, has, like, an apostolic-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like, we here.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so he's saying, "I am saying-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we-
David: Yes
Seth: ... uh, the ap- the apostles are not allowing this in the churches of God."
David: Exactly right.
Seth: He's not, he's not saying... He's not necessarily saying that, "You're the only church that's doing this."
David: Right.
Seth: He's saying, "We're saying this is how we're gonna do th- do things."
David: Yes. I think there's, like, a, a jab at, like, "You're outside of the apostolic-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... command I'm giving."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But the... This is what I wanted to say, is, is debate, the, the debate-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is Paul seems to be, like you're saying-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... giving an apostolic command to all the churches of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to, men don't wear head coverings, women wear head coverings.
Seth: Okay.
David: Which is why, to this day, churches practice, some churches, denominations practice-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... women wearing head coverings in church.
Seth: Well, and, and, um, I guess this is, like, kind of like a, a downstream, like, artifact of this, is that when I notice, like, we have prayer, men will frequently remove their hats.
David: Remove their hats.
Seth: Men still wear hats at church-
David: Yep
Seth: ... frequently.
David: But when they pray or prophesy [chuckles]
Seth: ... But, but, but like, like or even people in the congregation-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like, they'll just take it off.
David: That's right. Yep.
Seth: Or so yeah, I've noticed that.
David: Yeah. So this is the question then.... is this a law for our church practice today?
Seth: Oh, I understand.
David: This is the, this is the-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... controversy here.
Seth: Well, I would, I mean, my answer to that is, like, well, it's immense- it doesn't mean anything close to what it meant-
David: Sure
Seth: ... back then.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the reason it was a command
Seth: was to guard against and to properly communicate the relationship with God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and men and women.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah. I mean, I would completely agree.
Seth: Yes.
David: But, um, I mean, I've had this conversation with many people, and the immediate response I get from that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... answer is, "Well, then where does it stop?"
Seth: Okay.
David: "Who are you to decide when culture changes enough to void an apostolic command?"
Seth: Okay.
David: That's-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... a pretty good argument.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: So, like, what, what would you, what would you say to that? Like, where does- when does culture dictate or not dictate when a command is culturally conditioned or just-
Seth: I mean-
David: ... biblically, um, authoritative?
Seth: Didn't we just have this conversation in our last podcast?
David: Very good. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, so good. [laughs]
David: Like, I love that.
Seth: Where we, we said, like, the disposition of Christians should be towards self... Like, limiting our sense of freedom out of love for neighbor.
David: That's right. Were women free to have their heads uncovered?
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: There's nothing against it.
David: And scientifically, it's not hollow. [laughs]
Seth: Like, yeah.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And also, Hippocrates was wrong.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, w- unpack that. Keep going about food sacrificed to idols and what we talked about-
Seth: Yeah, no, so
David: ... applies to this.
Seth: So it's like Paul... And Paul has already made something of a contextual argument above. He's like, "Depending on the situation you're in-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... if you get invited over for dinner, you can eat-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the food sacrificed to idols, but if your friend tells you that that causes him to misunderstand his relationship with God, you should abstain."
David: Right.
Seth: And so presumably, that same logic of wisdom would apply. I don't know if it answers that question, but it seems as if what Paul would say is that there is a sense that wisdom has to govern-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... these things.
David: Or, or, or, or as he says it, conscience.
Seth: A conscience has to govern-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... these things, and, like, that's inherently going to change, depending whether you're a, a Jewish context, a Gentile context or, or, or whatever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that's what-
David: That's a good answer. I, I think-
Seth: And I would also just-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... say slippery slope is, is-
David: Is a fallacy
Seth: ... it's a fallacy.
David: It's a fallacy.
Seth: It... Just because it can happen-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and it has happened-
David: Yes
Seth: ... doesn't mean that it's necessarily going to happen.
David: Very good answer as well. [laughs]
David: Yes, the, this, that is a slippery slope fallacy to say, "Well, when does it stop?" It stopped right here. What are you talking about?
Seth: Right.
David: I've only talked about it right here.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: What do you, what do you, what do you want from me? [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I, I think my, my favorite answer to this question is, um, this is just good exegesis.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is when we read this, if we didn't do the work to understand the culture like we've done the last hour-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we would be like, "Uh, we need to be wearing head coverings," and we would have a lot of weird ideas about why Paul said this, what the extent of it was.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But when we understand, oh, they're bringing in pagan practices, and you can actually-
Seth: Yes
David: ... understand the context of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Bible, which is the job of a Bible reader-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... then you understand, like, oh, well, when I bring my wife to the church, number one, we don't do head coverings in our culture.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, so that would be weird.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Number two, no one would think that I was saying she was available-
Seth: Right
David: ... for either, like, marriage-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... or communion with the demons-
Seth: Yes
David: ... if she walked in the church with her head covered. So it seems like what Paul's saying here doesn't actually directly, with regards to head coverings, apply-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to my current cultural situation.
Seth: Yes.
David: So I think that's just good exegesis.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Not... And so I think it's also a red herring fallacy-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to say, "Well, you're letting culture dictate what's biblically authoritative or not." I'm like, "No, I'm not."
Seth: Right.
David: "I'm doing good exegesis."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: This is just understanding the text on its own terms. If you wanna say that to blindly read any biblical passage and apply it today-
Seth: Mm
David: ... without cultural knowledge-
Seth: Mm
David: ... I would actually say that's bad exegesis and hermeneutics.
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: You actually need to understand the context.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I would say that it's just a bad question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: There, so there you go.
David: Yeah, anyway.
Seth: So take that. [laughs]
David: So take... [laughs] No, no, no, don't take that!
Seth: [laughs]
David: No, no, no. If you're listening, don't just take that. No, I say that in love. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah, I... And I just also wanna, as we meditate on the gospel, just one last time here, I think it's so amazing when we, when we think about the, the head coverings, and we think about the glory of God in the image of man.
Seth: Mm.
David: I just, I, again, I just find the beauty in, uh, that Jesus is God. [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, he is God, and yet he clothed himself, covered himself in the veil of man. Like, he became man.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He actually became human-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... and shared our glory. Like, Jesus became like man and was covered in his image so that man could become like God and be-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... covered in his image.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God's like, "So take off the veil and show that image."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I'm making you like me." Isn't that good news?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, that God would become man so that we could become like God?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, what a beautiful thing. Don't cover that up.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I've made you and am making you into my image. You are my glory. I love you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Oh, I just think it's so beautiful.
Seth: It is. No, it is beautiful.
David: So-
Seth: It is beautiful.
David: Okay, 1 Corinthians 11.
Seth: That's amazing. That w- that was amazing.
David: It was good.
Seth: I was, I was really, uh... I learned a lot today.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I learned a lot today. [laughs]
David: Yeah, we've been on a journey with this one. Well, thank you all so much for joining us. We will have one last probably [chuckles] episode, um, on the hard parts of 1 Corinthians. Uh, next time we're gonna look at chapter 14, where Paul talks about the gift of tongues, the gift of prophecy, and a phrase, "A woman should remain silent in the church." So I hope you join us for that episode. We'll see you then. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]