David: [mellow music] ... "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."
Seth: Mm.
David: He's like, "Why am I limiting myself? Because I'm imitating Christ."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And I'm not asking you to do anything that I'm not-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "willing to do, just like Jesus didn't ask me to do anything he wasn't willing to do."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Jesus limited himself for my salvation. I've limited myself for your salvation. Now, brothers, limit yourselves for your brother's salvation- [chuckles]"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Because we're just following-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "our head."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We're just-
Seth: That's cool
David: ... doing what Jesus does.
Seth: That's cool.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [mellow music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are starting a quick little series in 1 Corinthians, diving into three, what we might call, confusing passages in 1 Corinthians to talk about even some hot button issues, but ultimately, to understand what was the context in Corinth, and how do we see the gospel in these kind of controversial issues? So Seth, how you feeling about that today?
Seth: I'm feeling great about it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I love the book of 1 Corinthians.
David: It's a good one.
Seth: Uh, I re- remembering back to our intro podcast-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... uh, that we did a while ago, and, uh, the church in Corinth needed some help, man.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I remember in the intro podcast how we were looking at, yeah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all the different issues happening in Corinth, all the immorality, and yet he starts off by just talking about how much grace they've been given, how much mercy they have-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, how much God loves them, and I was like, "Oh, that's the gospel right there?" [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Just right on the very beginning?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: I, I forgot about that.
David: That's good.
Seth: So good.
David: Um, maybe it would be helpful for our audience to, to remind them the occasion-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of why we're doing these podcasts. Um, me and Christine, one of our other writers here, are working our way through 1 Corinthians, writing the devotionals for it now, and we've just kind of had our minds blown, or, uh, have really struggled with [chuckles]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, the three passages we're gonna talk through in these three episodes.
Seth: And we're doing, uh, food sacrificed to idols.
David: Food sacrificed to idols, which is 8 to 10.
Seth: Okay.
David: We're gonna do head coverings for women in chapter 11.
Seth: I mean, that's, th- that's the- [chuckles]
David: That's a-
Seth: ... that's the hard one. [chuckles]
David: That's a hard one.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and then, uh, chapter 14, there's several things that are, um, difficult in that. There's, uh, prophecy, there's tongues-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and there's the phrase, "Women must remain silent in the church."
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: And so what all is happening in there? And we've had to wrestle those things to the ground. So we're gonna start off with this food sacrificed to idols issue.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, but I guess to begin, we should probably just set a little context-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for Corinth in general.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, a fairly wealthy, pagan Greek city.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, lots of pagan worship, lots of idols to, or and, uh, temples to gods.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and it's really important to understand, like, in a lot of, uh, Paul's other letters, he's writing to a primarily Jewish audience, and he's trying to help them transition, or, you know, like, from their maybe even wrong views about how to be Jewish into how to follow the Messiah, who is Jewish, and how he fulfills the Jewish laws-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and how he fulfills-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, the most Jewish thing to do is-
Seth: Yes
David: ... follow Jesus.
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: And he has to deal with a lot of their past lives. Like, "You've misunderstood circumcision or the law or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... kosher food, or it actually is pointing to Jesus."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And here, he's kind of doing something similar but with a completely different audience.
Seth: Yep.
David: He's talking to a Greek pagan audience and saying, "How do we get the, the pagan practices out of you, the pagan worldview out of you, and help you become a follower of Jesus?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Because a lot of the things you're doing in the worship of your pagan gods is radically inappropriate [chuckles]--"
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: "... for, for the worship of a holy, good, kind, benevolent God."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and one of those practices was food sacrificed to idols.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, um, I mean, what do you know? Let me just ask that question.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: What do you know about the ancient practice in, like, a pagan context [chuckles] of food being sacrificed to idols?
Seth: I mean, I know... Well, I- when I think sacrifice, I think, like, biblical sacrifice-
David: Yep
Seth: ... so I've got the category. Like, you know, I've read Leviticus. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, right?
Seth: And so I know that, like, there's this, a system where you bring an animal sacrifice to God, and I know that the pagan way of approaching their gods was very different, actually, than the way the Bible-
David: Mm
Seth: ... talks about it. In, [sighs] essentially, from my basic understanding, is that you're trying to convince the gods to act on your behalf-
David: Mm
Seth: ... through the sacrifice of something costly to you. It's like you want the gods to answer your prayer or to bring water to your crops.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you bring an animal to them, and then you sacrifice the animal. You want them to... gods to tell you your future, you, you, you give up something costly-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so that the gods can eat it-
David: Right
Seth: ... and be satisfied, and maybe they'll look kindly upon you.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, so that's kind of like what I-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's what I would assume based off, you know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what I've seen and heard and-
David: Yeah, I think that's a fair background.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: Um, what's interesting, too, about Corinth and the way they sacrificed to their gods is it was a very, we would call it, an immoral city.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They wouldn't have that category, [chuckles] obviously.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um-
Seth: Corinthiazos.
David: Yeah!
Seth: So, yeah.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, what was that?
Seth: It w- well, it's, it was a city so known for its immorality, like, to Corinthiazo was to, uh, like, have illicit sex. [chuckles]
David: I forgot about that!
Seth: Yeah, remember that? [laughs]
David: Oh, my gosh.... Oh, man, it's like-
Seth: Uh.
David: I mean, what, what's another, like-
Seth: Sin City, like-
David: Sin City.
Seth: Vegas, like-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Or like, it, it doesn't have the same implication, but it's like, "Oh, that person's Texan."
Seth: Yeah, yeah. [laughing]
David: [laughing] Like, that's not a bad thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: But it does bring up certain connotations.
Seth: Like, "Okay, I understand what you're trying to say."
David: I think I know what you mean by that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, somebody could be from Dallas, but you wouldn't be like, "They're Texan."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? Like, that means something.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, "Oh, that guy is New York."
Seth: Yes.
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "That's the most British person I've ever met." None of these are bad things-
Seth: Right
David: ... they're just stereotypes [chuckles] a little bit.
Seth: That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: It's like-
Seth: And the stereotype of Corinth was that it was-
David: Was that it was sexually ex-
Seth: Wild.
David: Yeah, wild.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: Okay, well, then that's helpful background-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... because they were definitely Corinthiadzoing- [chuckles]
Seth: Yes
David: ... their, their, um, feasts with their gods. So, um, a lot of times they would come in to these pagan temples, and they would have these, um, feasts, where they would offer food, uh, to the gods, have a feast, and that feast was often combined with, um, like, s- I'm trying to use a- [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a PC word here, but, um, I mean, well, we'll just put a little warning on the front of this one maybe.
Seth: Okay.
David: But, uh, like orgies.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? Um, or drunkenness, just getting-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... absolutely drunk on wine.
Seth: That happens in Cor- in the church in Corinth, right? Like-
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: So yeah, we'll get there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and then also just so much gluttony,
Seth: Mm.
David: like they're eating so much food that they end up, um, vomiting-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that they can eat more.
Seth: That happened in the capital.
David: Oh, in, in The Hunger Games.
Seth: In The Hunger Games, yeah. [laughing]
David: Yes. So it's so funny, whenever Christine was sharing that with me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I was like, "This is The Hunger Games." [laughing]
Seth: Yeah, yeah. [laughing] I thought the same thing.
David: [laughing] Yeah, but there, there's a word for it, a vomitorium.
Seth: Oh, yeah, I've heard that word before.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't know why I've heard that word before. [laughing]
David: Yeah, me neither, Seth. What have you been up to, man? But yeah, so it's just this, like, utter inhibited or uninhibited-
Seth: What was, like, the purpose of those feasts? Like, are-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... are, is it just, like, an excuse to, to have a party or with a religious facade, or is it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... more like you're doing something in that feast that's inciting the gods to, to... Are the gods watching the orgy and being like, "Oh, yes"?!
David: Yeah, so there's a lot there.
Seth: Okay.
David: I mean, I think at the basic human level, you could be like, "I think all of this is just an excuse to sin."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You know, but that's not the category they would bring to it, but there's definitely that underlying drive.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: Um, from a religious stand- standpoint... I think there's a religious standpoint and a philosophical standpoint.
Seth: Okay.
David: So from a religious pagan standpoint, yes, um, the gods watch the revelry, and it excites them to action, 'cause they are just as promiscuous as these bodily humans.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And so they get enticed-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... by the revelry of the humans and might be incensed to act-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or get involved. It arouses the gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Okay.
David: Um, and so the more explicit you could make your pagan festival, the more attention you might get from these evil gods-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to be like, "Oh, I wanna join in on that," or, like, "Oh, I like that."
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "I'll award them for the show."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Um-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and so, but then from a philosophical standpoint, the Greek side of them, uh, was very Platonic in a sense, right? Where, where they had this dichotomous view of body and spirit.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And so the spirit, the, the knowledge, the, the virtue, the, the, like, the who you are on the inside-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, is what matters.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what you do with your body just doesn't. And so these feasts would be a way to almost put into practice-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... the philosophical divide between body and spirit.
Seth: Interesting.
David: And you could just let your body go-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... in these experiences, knowing that it doesn't actually matter.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It has no bearing on who you are as a person.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Because, oh, my inner self-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the sophisticated-
Seth: Mm-hmm, yeah
David: ... um, knowledgeable, um, reasonable-
Seth: Yes
David: ... person, and so... And let me degrade my flesh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause it really doesn't matter.
Seth: This is why Paul, later on, will talk about, like, uh, with, with, with, like, sleeping with a prostitute.
David: That's right.
Seth: And he's like, "Don't, don't you know-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like, what's happening here?"
David: Exactly.
Seth: "That you're joining your body, which is Christ's body, to, into the, to the body of a prostitute."
David: That's right.
Seth: He's like, "Your body is, like, extremely important-
David: Yes
Seth: ... uh, to, to God." Yeah.
David: Yeah, and he does that throughout Corinthians.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And so really, I, I say all these things to say, so much of First Corinthians can be mapped on to th- all these ideas I've talked about.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you've mentioned a few already, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like, Paul does a lot of work highlighting the importance of the body-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the, um, the sin of sexual, like, sexual sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, why? Well, 'cause he's trying to show that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you are not a body and a spirit separately-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but that you are one created being and made in the image of God, and you're meant to house the glory of God. Um, he talks about how to eat in the church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Don't overeat, and don't get drunk on the Lord's Supper.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's what you do in the pagan temples-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... right? And, and now he's talking about food sacrificed to idols. And i- it's, it's again-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's just this, "How do we get the pagan world out of you [chuckles]-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the, and Christ into you?"
Seth: Okay.
David: And he's un-paganizing them, uh, you know, as he-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... tries to disciple them into the way of Christ.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so in food sacrificed to idols, you have kind of two groups inside the church reacting differently to this old pagan practice, because-
Seth: Okay
David: ... um, hypothetically, none of them are still going to the temples, or they at least they shouldn't be going-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the temples to, to do this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But what's their relationship now to food sacrificed to idols? Because it's not just that, um, "Oh, once a year, there's a feast at this temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and I'm just not gonna go to it anymore."
Seth: Yeah.
David: The food sacrificed to idols trickles down throughout the entire Corinthian economy of food.
Seth: Right. So it's not like you come... It's not every time you offer food, you don't automatically have a feast.
David: That's right, yeah.
Seth: That's not happening every single time you go there.
David: Right.
Seth: It's a lot of time you just bring food and hope the gods-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... look well on you, and then the, the pagan priests-... take it, and then bring it to the marketplace and sell it.
David: That's it, yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: So most, if not all, of the meat that you would buy in the Corinthian market would've been sacrificed at the temple.
Seth: Correct.
David: Because the temple, just like in Israel-
Seth: Right
David: ... you know, was the butcher shop.
Seth: That's right.
David: And you're not supposed to, like, kill an animal without bringing the gods into the equation.
Seth: And that's how it kind of functioned in Old Testament Israel-
David: Mm-hmm, that's right
Seth: ... too, like you had a priest presiding over, uh, the sacrifices, and that meat would be given back to the people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so you have an offering made to God, a priestly blessing, and then you would eat the meat.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so, but what do you do when you're the minority religious group? You're not allowed to have access to the meat that you wanna sacrifice to your God, and-
David: Well, that's the question.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Are you allowed to have access?
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the question-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... is, what does this meat in the marketplace-
Seth: Mean
David: ... mean to me now? Because isn't... I'm not-- I know I shouldn't go to the pagan temple-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and sacrifice a, an animal to a god that I know is not the ultimate God now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I, I worship Christ alone.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, He is the God of all gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So I shouldn't do that, but that food has been sacrificed to that god, so can I eat it?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so that's the question, and not only that, but what kind of animals are being sacrificed and eaten in the market-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is also interesting because a lot of times it'd be pigs-
Seth: Okay
David: ... 'cause they, they provide a lot of meat.
Seth: Right.
David: They, they, they breed quickly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They grow fast, and so, um, but now you have these Greeks who are learning about Old Testament Jewish laws and things, and they're like: "Is it okay for me to eat-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... pigs still?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Let alone pigs sacrificed to pagan gods? There's a lot of questions about food.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so you have two groups of people that... And, and I'm sure Paul is kind of [chuckles] speaking in broad-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... categories here, but you have two groups of people who are trying to figure out how to react.
Seth: Okay.
David: And one group is, is, is saying, "That food is nothing, like, because the gods behind it are nothing."
Seth: Right, these gods are just figments of the Greeks' imaginations-
David: Or-
Seth: ... or demons or-
David: Yeah
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think probably, or for, for a, for a 1st-century person, they wouldn't have gone so far as to say, like, "Oh, the gods aren't real."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: They'd be like, "They are subordinate and evil."
Seth: God, Jesus has defeated them-
David: Yes
Seth: ... by resurrecting and defeat, like, by the cross and defeating them.
David: Yeah, they're nothing.
Seth: They're n- they're nothing.
David: Yeah, they're nothing.
Seth: Isn't it?
David: My King rules over them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I can eat food that's been sacrificed to them because I know in my conscience-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and in my heart that I'm not worshiping those gods.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's just meat now, so who cares?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just meat. But another group is, is like, when they see other Christians in their church eating food sacrificed to idols-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... they might intuit that those free Corinthians, who feel at liberty to eat, are actually still worshiping or participating-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or giving some kind of credence to these pagan gods, and they're-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... still struggling-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with this plural, l- like, pluralistic might be the wrong word, but polytheistic.
Seth: Yeah. Well, I'm reading verse seven: "Some, through their former association with idols, um, see it as food as really offered to an idol."
David: That's right.
Seth: "And their conscience, being weak, is defiled."
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, there's a sense that they feel like they're participating in something that they walked away from.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, ima- I mean, using the word triggered here is actually really helpful.
Seth: Oh.
David: Because imagine growing up in this society, and every time you had a meal-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it was like, it was a spiritual thing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... where you knew that this was in worship of a certain-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... god or goddess.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so to then go to a meal where you know the food was sacrificed to an idol, and your Christian friends are going like, "Hey, don't worry about it. Like, just eat."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, you're like, "I'm so triggered right now" [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "I can't disassociate this meal from the worship of those gods."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Like, that's really hard for me."
Seth: It's silly in that it's, it's not like... it doesn't have the same religious weight, but I, I, I notice the same tension with, like, alcohol-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... among, among Christian folks.
David: Totally, yes.
Seth: It's like, "I used to be an alcoholic. I, I don't, I don't go near-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... this stuff, but I just saw my pastor drinking a beer."
David: I'm, yeah.
Seth: "And like, I'm deeply confused, and I don't know what to do about that."
David: Yes.
Seth: You know?
David: Yeah, e- exactly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I, I don't think that's a bad parallel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... at all. And an- another thing that is, is on the line for those, uh, you know, the, those with the, what was it? The weak conscience-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... uh, is they might see those maybe with a stronger conscience when-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who feel free to eat, as saying like, "Yeah, we, we eat the blood and body of Jesus on Sundays-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... but we also eat food sacrificed to idols on Wednesday."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And so they're all the same."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And, you know, we, we're polytheistic, and Jesus is the same as Athena or Zeus or whatever."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, "Or it's not that big of a deal," you know, and that's not-
Seth: It could be seen by... Like, people's like, what you're functionally saying is, that all these gods are worthy of worship.
David: That's right.
Seth: And like, that's-
David: Otherwise, why are you eating both their meals?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, and so that's what's on the line, and it's kind of like a lot of things in Corinth-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is creating division, tearing apart the church, like, making a lot of issues for the people. And so Paul instructs them in chapter 8, for the, the stronger, you know, those with, those with the freedom to eat-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... who probably are seeing it somewhat correctly, that, yeah-
Seth: That's right
David: ... food sacrificed to idols is just food.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's okay... Like, it's, at the end of the day, you, you actually do have liberty to eat that food.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, you're free to eat it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You have that, that freedom, and that freedom is a good thing.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, when Jesus disarms the powers and shows them for what they are, we're given a liberty-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... eat something that we might have been barred from, and we have, like, a power no one else has.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he tells them to limit their freedom-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and not use it, and instead, for the sake of those with the weaker conscience, abstain from eating that, that, that meat for the sake of their weaker brothers.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um-
Seth: Yes
David: ... which, which might be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay, that makes sense," but that's a huge cost.... to the stronger, conscience-free brothers.
Seth: Right, because I know that this doesn't mean anything. The Apostle Paul agrees with me that this doesn't mean anything.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I really enjoy the taste of bacon.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: There's like, there's no reason- there, there's no compelling reason for me to do something that I'm allowed to do-
David: Right
Seth: ... I have apostolic permission to do, and that Jesus has defeated.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, why, why should I give up what I know I can freely enjoy?
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And to further strong-man this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, not only that, but the cost of it.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, so the, like, tons of liberty to do it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The cost of it is, is m- has several prongs. Like- [chuckles]
Seth: Oh.
David: Like, yeah, I like the taste of bacon.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, sure, but, like, do I f- am I functionally a vegetarian now?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, I can't get any meat now.
Seth: Yeah. Wait, what you're asking me borders on ridiculous.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I can only eat vegetables, and I can never have a meal with my mother-in-law again?
David: That's right, yep.
Seth: Like, my mother, like-
David: I-
Seth: ... how can I be missional in the city-
David: There
Seth: ... and share the gospel with people if I can't eat with my non-believing ne- neighbors and friends?
David: Yes, so dietary.
Seth: Okay.
David: S- and then you just hit social.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Huge social! I can't do anything now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, am I just supposed to hang out with the Christians? [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, what do I do? Or am I gonna embarrass myself when I go to a friend's house, and they have meat, and I'm like, "Oh, sorry, I can't." And they're like, "What, you got a problem with my food?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And then there's also, I think, one that's, like, psychographic.
Seth: Okay.
David: For a Corinthian, this idea of, of boundless freedom-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and that knowledge creates a hierarchy, that the more I know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the more I commune with the gods, I can have superiority over others, is, like, the way a Greek mind-
Seth: Mm
David: ... would work.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so I've now been granted a freedom that no one else has.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And it gives me liberty to do something no one else can do. I'm actually-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, psychographically superior now-
Seth: Right
David: ... when I can act on it.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And you're asking me to be, basically not be Greek. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like, to lay down something that I've discovered-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... and act like it doesn't exist, like some kind of truth that I've discovered-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... act like it doesn't exist, for the sake of being a vegan who can't go to parties?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, man!
Seth: Ba- based off your wrong perception of what I, of what-
David: Yes
Seth: ... o- of Scripture?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's essentially what, it's like-
David: Yeah, and you could... Yeah, you could word it that way, like a, like a Christian would.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But even, like, thinking like a Greek, oh, because somebody has lesser knowledge, like, in that mystic kind of way-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... like, some weaker spirit, you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like, I have to subordinate to somebody who has less-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... knowledge than I do? That's not the Greek way.
Seth: Right. Well, I mean, I'm not Greek, but, like, I feel the force of Paul's argument here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the, in that sense. It, even as a Christian, it's like I have certain freedoms based off my reading of Scripture, and when I see other people trying to impinge on that freedom out of some sense of mor- like, a moral conviction they have that I don't, it's like, "Oh, how quaint."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "How quaint that you don't watch R-rated movies like I do."
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: Like, "Oh, how quaint. Oh, that's, that's cute." I'm, I'm really g- it's like it would be easy for me to assume a position of superiority-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... based on my sense of Christian freedom, when others' consciences are so weak that they can't eat-
David: Mm
Seth: ... a certain type of food.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They can't watch certain type of movies.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, I was like, "Well-
David: Yep
Seth: ... how cosmopolitan of me."
David: Right.
Seth: "I'll wait for you to catch up, friend."
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know, like, there's that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... easy sense of, like, superiority that comes in.
David: Yeah, it's like, "Hey, Seth, I know you have the freedom to have a glass of wine-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but I actually want you to limit yourself, not only to never have it outside, but actually just get rid of all of it in your house."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, hold on, just because some people-
Seth: Mm
David: ... are struggling with that? Really?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, you want me to limit my freedom in that way?
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, there is something there that's like-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... you can feel the weight of the argument.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that's what I want us to feel.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because Paul is then going to go into several, um, apologetics, like, reasons why they should limit their freedoms.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and, and, and this is, this is what was helpful for, for me because when I... I've read these three chapters so many times throughout my life, and I could never follow the train of thought.
Seth: Okay.
David: It felt kind of, like, random.
Seth: Okay.
David: Why is he talking about this now?
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it k- again, it goes, food sacrificed to idols-
Seth: Setting up the problem.
David: [clears throat] Setting up the problem, and then Paul starts talking about why he is allowed to take a paycheck from the church.
Seth: Okay.
David: I'm just setting this up-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... in, in my old way of seeing it-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... like, why it was confusing for me. Then he starts talking about runners and athletes who take off every weight to run. Then he starts talking about Israel in the wilderness being baptized in the water and eating the same spiritual drink, only to then finally come back and wrap up the idea of food sacrificed to idols.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I'm like, "What are you doing [chuckles] here, Paul?"
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But here's what's happening. Like, once, once I understood this, I was like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Oh, it all... He's making an argument-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a sustained argument." So he's, like, saying, "You guys need to limit your freedoms for the sake of saving your weaker brothers."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So then he goes into a statement of-
Seth: And he says it really strongly in verse 13, "If food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat-
David: Right
Seth: ... lest I make my brother stumble." He's, he's making a really strong statement here that he's about to back up.
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: So he's going to basically, like I said, give this apologetic for why you should limit yourself.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So he starts talking about how basically, "I'm not asking you Corinthians to do anything I haven't been willing to do first."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he goes into all these liberties he has as an apostle-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but how he has limited himself from, um, taking them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for the sake of the Corinthian church. So, um, he talks about... He, he says, "Am I not free?" In 9:1, "Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus, our Lord?"
Seth: Mm.
David: He's talking about all his credentials-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... all these things, and he's like, "Do I not have the right to eat and drink? Do I not have the right to take along a beloved wife?"
Seth: Mm.
David: So yeah, so he starts in 9:1, and he says, "Am I not free?"... Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus, our Lord?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he starts just saying like, "Look, I'm free. I have these, I have these-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... these rights as an apostle. I have these rights and liberties as someone who has beheld Jesus."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Um, and yet I'm not using any of them. I'm not-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... taking advantage of any of them." He, he mentions a few. He's like, "Don't I have the right to eat and drink? And that could, that could mean whatever I want. Don't I have the same liberties you have-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... oh, strong Corinthians?" Or he could mean, "Don't I have the right to be fed?"
Seth: Oh, like receive, like-
David: Like-
Seth: ... compensation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the form of, of wine and-
David: Like, like, "Hey, I preached a-
Seth: Yeah [chuckles]
David: ... sermon. Can I have some bread?"
Seth: Yeah, yeah. [chuckles]
David: Like, uh, or, "Don't I have the right to get married and bring along a faithful, believing wife with me?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, don't I have the right to, yeah, be compensated? And he goes into that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And yet, I have limited myself from all of those freedoms-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for your sake." And so he-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he's saying, like, "I... When I came and preached to you in Corinth, I didn't charge you anything.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I didn't try to get my room and board from you. I came completely self-supported-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that no one would be able to question my motives, that I was only doing it for the money or, or anything like that. I, I did it completely on my own expense, so that nothing would prohibit the gospel from going forth-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that no one could bring an accusation against me." Um, and, and, and so it's fascinating. Then he- and he goes on to explain, like, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a lot of examples-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... of how justified he would be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to receive compensation-
Seth: Right
David: ... from the Corinthians-
Seth: Yes
David: ... for his service and ministry to them.
Seth: Okay.
David: He gives several examples. One he gives is a soldier.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "Uh, would a soldier serve at his own expense?" Like, s- like, no, absolutely not.
Seth: Right, right.
David: If you enlist-
Seth: A soldier's not paying for the battle himself.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, it's like, "Hey, I'm here to serve." "Okay, cool. Did you bring your own gun?"
Seth: Yeah. That's right, yeah.
David: It's like, "Did you bring your own rations? Did you bring your own uniform?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "No, that's your job-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... General," [chuckles] like, person who runs the army. That's a silly thing to think. Then he talks about the law of Moses, and he quotes, um, this, this law in verse nine: "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain."
Seth: Meaning, doesn't an ox have the right to eat while it's working?
David: Yep.
Seth: And so do, so do I.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Whenever an ox is, is, is treading out the grain, don't muzzle it so it can't open its mouth and eat.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Feed it while it's working.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It has the right to do that, and so I do, too, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I'm working. Don't I have the right to eat?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Am I, am I less than an ox here? [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, uh... And then he talks about the Levitical system. He talks about how the priests of the temple, they work in the temple, and they get to eat the food in the temple.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, don't I-
Seth: That's right
David: ... get to do the same thing?
Seth: Yep.
David: And yet he has made up his mind... This is verse 15: "I have, uh, I have made no use of any of these rights, any of these liberties, any of these freedoms, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision. I'm also not trying to say, 'Hey, pay me now-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause I've been limiting myself.'
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "For I would rather die [chuckles] than have anyone deprive me of my ground for boasting. For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting, for necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!" And so he's saying here, "I wanted to make sure you knew-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the only reason I was doing this-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is that you might know Christ-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not for any selfish gain."
Seth: My own, yeah, be- my own benefit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So what's the r- what's his reason then why a Christian should give up his freedom? Like, what's the motivation then? So he's like, "Hey, I've given up a whole bunch of things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so that the gospel might go, go forward." But between Christians-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what's, what's the motivation then for-
David: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think, uh, back in verse 11, yes, of chapter 8, he kind of mentions something similar. So when he's talking about food sacrificed to idols, he says, "And so by your knowledge..." Then he's talking about the people who feel like they have superior knowledge and are free to eat food-
Seth: Yes
David: ... sacrificed to idols. "And so by your knowledge, this weak person is destroyed-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the brother for whom Christ died."
Seth: Mm.
David: So he's saying that, "You do have these people in your midst who are struggling to see Jesus as supreme above all gods and who has defeated all the other gods."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Now, some of you know that he is supreme above all gods-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and that's giving you freedom to eat this food sacrificed to idols.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But you are actually limiting the gospel from going-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... forth to these weaker brothers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... by not reinforcing that idea that Jesus is King of all kings to them.
Seth: Right.
David: And so you need to limit yourself-
Seth: Okay
David: ... so that they might-
Seth: I understand
David: ... finally believe the gospel and see that these pagan gods-
Seth: It's like-
David: ... really are nothing."
Seth: As a stronger believer, you have a responsibility to your weaker brother or sister to raise them in the faith and, like, increase their faith in the one true God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what you're doing is counterintuitive.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it's actually destroying that faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Me... And which is why he goes on to m- mention all of these ministerial accomplishments that he has and why he'll say things like, "But though I'm free, I made myself a servant of all, that I might win more of them all."
David: That's right.
Seth: "In my apostolic th- mission, mission, I'm giving up a whole bunch of freedom so people might hear about Jesus for the first time."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Now, in your, like, brotherly and sisterly mission, the Body of Christ mission to one another, your call is to disciple one another into deeper, like, uh, love and appreciation for the supremacy of Jesus.
David: That's right.
Seth: And your misuse of your freedom is, i- is causing other Christians to not, to not experience that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The reason he limits himself-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is to save people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is so people might know the gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because he doesn't want any charge to come against him w- for-
Seth: Mm
David: ... any ulterior motive-
Seth: Mm
David: ... other than boasting in Christ alone.
Seth: And the reason why Christians should give up their freedoms with one another is so that they might know Jesus more deeply.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: That's good.
David: And so, um, he, he then goes on to... Well, let me, let me go ahead and say this here. We're in... I was gonna save it for the end-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but I'll just, I'll say it here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Another reason you do it, um, is to be like Christ. [chuckles]... like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Jesus had every liberty- [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: -and freedom. He's God Himself.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And yet He limited Himself so that we might know Him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Like-
Seth: That's right.
David: He emptied Himself. He became a slave to all so that we might know Him-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and so that He might save us, and He might bring His gospel to us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so whenever he, He's giving these brothers in Corinth with knowledge-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... He's giving them the greatest gift of all. He's giving them a pathway to be like Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's saying, "I know it might be hard to limit your freedom in this way, but guess who you're being like?" [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is the pathway to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... conformity with Christ, and what happened with Jesus whenever he conformed to the image of a slave and limited his freedom? He was given a name above every name.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You think that holding onto your knowledge will elevate you? Nothing will elevate you more than humility and limiting.
Seth: That's cool.
David: And so you get to be-
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that's what he's... So Paul-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... has been doing that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "I've been like Jesus to you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I, I've preached the gospel to you, not just with my, my lips, but with my life."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's just a beautiful picture of the gospel.
Seth: Yeah, and it, it makes sense that us Christians, we should follow the path o- of our Savior. [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. People who follow Jesus should act like Jesus, yeah.
David: Yeah. In fact, at the very end of his whole argument, um, after he'll come back to food sacrificed to idols, at the very end, he actually says just that. He says in 11:1, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."
Seth: Mm.
David: He's like, "Why am I limiting myself? Because I'm imitating Christ."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And I'm not asking you to do anything that I'm not-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "willing to do, just like Jesus didn't ask me to do anything He wasn't willing to do."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Jesus limited Himself for my salvation. I've limited myself for your salvation. Now, brothers-
Seth: Mm
David: ... limit yourselves for your brother's salvation- [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because we're just following our head."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "We're just-
Seth: That's cool
David: ... doing what Jesus does."
Seth: That's cool. [calm music]
David: Okay, the next thing he talks about, he's like, "I limit myself, even though I'm free to do it." Now he gets kind of like, I don't know, more logical-
Seth: Okay
David: ... or just, "Okay."
Seth: Yes.
David: "This is just a normal thing, guys."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Think about it this way: think about an athlete. An athlete, if they want to succeed, if they wanna do great, they limit their freedoms.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So is a runner free to eat chocolate cake?
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes, but I remember seeing an interview with, like, Michael Phelps.
Seth: Yes.
David: Who's not a runner, swimmer.
Seth: He's not, a swimmer. [chuckles]
David: Um, and-
Seth: Do swimmers eat chocolate cake? [chuckles]
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is it wrong for-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... an Olympic swimmer to eat chocolate cake?
Seth: Yeah.
David: No! They have the absolute liberty to do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I saw an interview with Michael Phelps after he won all those-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... gold medals, and, and, and someone asked him, "What's the difference between a great swimmer, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that the world's full of, and you?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "I haven't had dessert in 25 years," or, or something like that, like-
Seth: That's wild
David: ... or 12 years, or whatever. You know?
Seth: Wild!
David: He's like, "I haven't had a single piece of dessert in decades." And I was like, "Oh-
Seth: That's-
David: ... that's the difference."
Seth: That's the difference, yeah.
David: And it's like, you limit yourself. He... Is he free to eat chocolate cake? Absolutely.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Would he add a second to his lap time if he ate one piece? Probably not. [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he limits his freedoms-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that he might win.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's what Paul says.
Seth: And then he started smoking weed, so... [chuckles]
David: And then he- [chuckles] And then he did.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: [laughs] He was like, "I'm done with these limits."
Seth: "I'm done, I'm done with these limits!"
David: "I'm done with the limits." [laughs]
Seth: "I'm gonna start doing something else now."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "I got my gold medals."
David: Yep, but that's what he says in, um, in... But Paul says in 9:24, "Do you not know that in a race all runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we, an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly. I do not box as one beating the air, but I discipline my body and keep it-
Seth: Mm
David: ... under control, lest after preaching to others, I myself-
Seth: Mm
David: ... should be disqualified." So he's saying-
Seth: Mm
David: ... runners, athletes, they limit themselves from chocolate cake-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... whatever, bad sleep. Um, in fact, like, they, they throw off every weight.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In the Greek games, they would do it naked. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, so-
Seth: They would. [chuckles]
David: ... this idea that they just throw it all off, so they're unencumbered-
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... was a, a vi- very vivid image [chuckles] for, for this group of people.
Seth: My, my children learned a rhyme in school-
David: Okay
Seth: ... uh, about they, like, their Greek project, right?
David: Oh, boy.
Seth: And they sung a song about the Greeks, and they have this so... The one of the lines of the song is, "One of the facts that history shows," and they whisper to the crowd, "None of the athletes wore any clothes!" And they go, "Oh!" [chuckles] And then-
David: One-
Seth: It's like-
David: ... of the what?
Seth: None of the athletes wore any clothes.
David: None of the athletes [chuckles] wore any clothes.
Seth: And then they're like, "Oh!" And then it's like, it's really cute, and a whole bunch of second graders doing it.
David: "Oh!"
Seth: "Oh!" [chuckles] Anyway. [laughs]
David: They're scandalized.
Seth: They're scandalized. [chuckles]
David: That's really funny. So yes, this idea of throwing off everything that encumbers, they've seen that happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And so, um, but they do it to win a prize.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Now, Paul says they, they do it to win a perishable wreath, you know, like one of those-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... crowns.
Seth: Like a medal.
David: Uh, yep.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, anything-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... any kind of trophy. [sniffs] Uh, they would've gotten, like, those laurel kind of-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... wreath crowns, and, like, those fade, and they-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they perish. He's like, "But we do it to get an imperishable prize."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So I think this has been taken out of context a lot in his-
Seth: Okay
David: ... flow of argument. You know, it's a beautiful passage-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but it's been applied to a whole bunch of things.
Seth: Right, right.
David: But just trying to focus on the passage here, he's talking about the freedoms we have, even if they're correct freedoms, like to take a paycheck as a preacher.
Seth: Right.
David: That's not a bad thing.
Seth: That's right.
David: You're actually... That's a good thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you're like, just like seeing that meat sacrificed to idols is nothing, that's a good thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if it's limiting the spread of the gospel-
Seth: Mm
David: ... I'd rather limit myself.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why? To win the prize. Well, in this situation, what's the prize?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The people you're trying to reach.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the people you're trying to reach, they're your prize.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the gospel going forth is their prize.
Seth: Is there any limit on this?
David: What do you mean?
Seth: Like, the way that we're talking about this, it would say that-... then essentially I should always, uh, limit myself.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, there shouldn't be an o- like, Paul, Paul begins by saying, "I have the right to do these things."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's like, "The stronger person is the person who can eat meat." But, like, the way that we're talking about it seems like functionally-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Christians should really never indulge in their liberties.
David: Oh, interesting.
Seth: So-
David: I, I would say that if you get to that point-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you're missing the reason.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because then we've just made a, a law out of-
Seth: Right
David: ... limiting liberties.
Seth: Right.
David: When the purpose of it is, is my exercise of this liberty limiting the spread of the gospel in my community?
Seth: And I guess, like, wouldn't that always be the case?
David: I don't, I don't think so.
Seth: Like-
David: Uh
Seth: ... so if I... It's like, well, it's like the, the dessert example.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like if I, like, stop spending so- if I stop having $75 of fun money every month-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and I, like, gave it to missionaries, like, that would be more gospel, gospel opportunity. If I stopped buying... If I stopped shopping at Target and started going to Wal- if I started... You know, I could, I could... There's a whole bunch of things I do in my life budgetarily or with my time. It's like, "Oh, I could, I could spend that time, like, you know, exercising-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or I could go and do that mission, mission opportunity that my, that my church is hosting."
David: Mm.
Seth: You know, it's like there's always a sense that, like, I have a whole bunch of liberties and time in my life that could be leveraged more effectively for the spread of the gospel.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: It's such a good question. Um, I think we need to, at least in this context, understand the difference between opportunistically spreading the gospel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by limiting our freedoms.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, which is pretty much every example you gave.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And limiting the effectiveness of the gospel that is being spread by damaging its witness.
Seth: Mm, yeah.
David: That's the difference.
Seth: That's helpful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. Right, because-
David: It's, I don't wanna damage the witness of the gospel that's already here-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not, "Oh, I could have told the gospel to three more people today if I didn't go to the gym or something."
Seth: Yeah. Well, that's helpful because I think that's kind of the other side of this coin that I normally hear-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that when we talk about limiting freedoms, it's like there's just n- like, we have to live radically all the time.
David: Right.
Seth: Never waste our life. Like, there's this sense that I live in a chronic sense of guilt because I could-
David: Oh
Seth: ... always be limiting more freedoms.
David: That's good, yeah.
Seth: That's probably an overreach of-
David: I think so
Seth: ... what Paul's saying right here.
David: Yep. I think so.
Seth: 'Cause like, man, like, m- m- more to the point, when you live in a relationship with other people, you... There will be a moment when you have a choice to make. You can either continue in the freedoms that you have or reach the person in front of you, reach your brother or sister in front of you.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So I think we need to make sure we're understanding that his point here is damaging the witness of the gospel.
Seth: Mm.
David: So he's like, "I know you in Corinth have a wealth problem. You got some-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... money idols-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in here. So I'm gonna not bring money into the equation of me bringing the gospel to you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "So I'm gonna go get my support somewhere else, so that that way I preach it for free."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "That way you don't question any of my motives."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So it wasn't, "Let me go get money elsewhere so that I may be more free to preach the gospel."
Seth: Yeah.
David: He was gonna do it anyway.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it was w- would, would exercising that liberty-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... that he might have exercised and did exercise in other communities-
Seth: Yes. Yes
David: ... he knew that it would inhibit or prohibit-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the spread of the gospel here. It would damage its witness because of the idols of money-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in Corinth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so he's limiting that freedom so he doesn't damage the witness of the gospel. So I think that's r-
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: ... that's really, and, and that's what the food sacrificed to idols was doing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It was damaging the witness of the gospel because in their freedom in Christ, they looked to be worshiping idols.
Seth: So, so answer this question for me. Are we talking about how the ch- the outside world views what's happening in the church?
David: Mm.
Seth: "Oh, my pagan neighbor, when they see me eat- eating meat sacrificed to idol, thinks I'm also worshiping God." Or are we talking about, "When my Christian who sits across from me in the pews sees me eating meat sacrificed to idols, they're tempted to go back to something else?" [chuckles] Uh...
David: I, I just like the picture of-
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... of someone honking down on some ribs-
Seth: [laughing]
David: ... on a, in a, in a church pew-
Seth: [laughing]
David: ... in that moment. But yes, I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to answer your question, I think Paul's near focus-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is brother to brother-
Seth: Okay
David: ... inside the church.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so it is somebody who is believing in Jesus, but is struggling with their pagan past, and when they have somebody else who's believing in Jesus who's not-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and is like, "Oh, guys, this meat's nothing," all they see and all they're triggered to see is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "Wait, so you're worshiping Jesus and the pagans, like, the pagan gods?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "That's what I'm struggling with. So I guess it's okay.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I guess, I guess Zeus and Jesus-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... are basically interchangeable."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Or I can worship both of them," and it's like you're damaging the witness of the gospel to that brother.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, I think you can extrapolate some of those things outside the church-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but Paul's focus is, is right there.
Seth: Sure. Yeah, yeah.
David: So, um, anyway, throwing off every weight, and then he-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he does say one other thing I wa- I wanna mention-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is what is the prize? We've talked about it as the spread and the effectiveness of the gospel to people.
Seth: The-
David: Is, is one of the prize.
Seth: Let me, let me say that-
David: Yep
Seth: ... ca... 'Cause when you say spread and effectiveness of the gospel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I think to non-believers.
David: Sure. Yeah.
Seth: But so is that what you mean?
David: No, I mean here in the church.
Seth: Yeah. Okay, okay.
David: Yeah, here in the church.
Seth: Between brothers-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like increasing our affection and love for Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, and then the other one here is he says, "So that I myself should not be disqualified."
Seth: Mm.
David: Is, I think, another one of the prizes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that he's gonna run in such a way that he doesn't get to the end of the race, crosses the ribbon-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... and they're like, "Oh, you cheated." Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... "You're disqualified from-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... from, from the race because you've done all these things." And I think i- this is a little, uh, hard, and I feel like I might be speculating a little bit here, but I think some of it has to be, "I don't wanna exercise my liberties in such a way that I overexercise them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and end up disqualifying myself." So, like, a, uh, an example of this could be, um, a preacher-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who is totally justified in receiving a salary-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but exercises that liberty to the point of excess.... to where they become greedy-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and they end up disqualifying themselves from ministry.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
David: You know what I mean?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: So there's another side of the coin too.
Seth: Is it- yeah, it's like you start asking questions like, "Is six figures really necessary-
David: Right
Seth: ... for a senior pastor?"
David: Yes.
Seth: You know, and like maybe if you live in San Francisco-
David: Yeah, [chuckles]
Seth: ... the answer is yes. But, uh, yeah.
David: Yeah, so I, I think that, that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'm sure there's a lot more there, but it's-
Seth: That's interesting
David: ... what's the prize? He wants to make sure he gets the prize.
Seth: That's right.
David: I want Jesus.
Seth: That's right.
David: I'm gonna run after this race in such a way, throwing off everything, because I just want Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'm gonna do it in such a way 'cause I want them to have Jesus, too. So I want e- I want everybody in this [chuckles] race-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to get the prize, which is Jesus, and I don't want to miss it either.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so there's also, like, he's running in such a way that he doesn't miss the prize of Jesus either.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So he's like... So maybe he might have limited himself. I do this in my own life. I bet you do, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There are things, and idols, and things I struggle with in my life, that I have imposed limits on my liberties-
Seth: That's right
David: ... so that I don't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... miss the prize.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause I, I, like, money is a struggle for me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I've put things in my life to limit the amount of money I'm allowed to get-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... just so I'm not disqualified.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I just don't wanna have to wrestle with it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so I throw it off.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like, 'cause I want Jesus!
Seth: That's right.
David: Am I, am I justified in taking all the money that I could? Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I- I'd be totally free to do that, but I don't do it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because it would encumber me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it might get me disqualified.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Even though I'm sitting here on a microphone telling people about Jesus, and they might win the race, they might get Jesus, I might myself get disqualified on the way, 'cause I let success, or fame, or money get in the way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I'm like, "Man, I've gotta... I'm gonna limit things in my life so I don't get disqualified."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know, I keep looking, like, backwards, too. He's like, "Thus sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience. You sin against Christ."
David: Mm.
Seth: And right before that, he talks about, "A weak person is destroyed."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, you're all running-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, you get disqualified by just tripping everybody else up.
David: Oh, yes! [chuckles]
Seth: It's like, and that, oh, that was-
David: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah
Seth: ... that was the image I got. It's like you're running the race, and it's like, "I'm just gonna push you down."
David: That's right. Yeah, I got... I, I run the, I won the race at everyone else's expense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, uh, "Hey, I was exercising my liberties. I ran the race. I got Jesus." It's like, yeah, but you ruined a whole bunch of relationships along the way, so actually, you're disqualified.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [inhales] Yeah, that's intense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, cool! So then in chapter 10, Paul jumps to what I've [chuckles] always felt like was another random-
Seth: Okay
David: ... picture. He says this: "For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless-
Seth: Jesus was in the rock?
David: Jesus was, was the rock.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: "Nevertheless, with most of them, God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness."
Seth: Okay.
David: What? Like, Paul, what, [chuckles] where are you going here?
Seth: Mm.
David: And what's interesting is he's showing, um, a, a, an example from Israel's past-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which these Greek pagans have now been grafted into. They're part of the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... story of Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "Let me tell you about your new spiritual ancestors." [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: They had been given so much liberty. They were literally freed from slavery in Egypt-
Seth: Mm. Mm-hmm
David: ... made a free people. They passed through the, the sea. They, they were made God's people, the liberated people of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They were eating free food in the wilderness. They were this one body, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of God's redeemed people.
Seth: Yes.
David: They were at liberty.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet they lost the prize.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: None of them entered into the Promised Land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They didn't get God. Why? Because in the wilderness, they, they compromised everything.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, they didn't limit themselves to... For instance, let's talk about what he talks about here, the, the-
Seth: Verse seven and eight, yeah.
David: Oh, go ahead. What's seven and eight?
Seth: Well, verse seven says, like, "Do not be idolaters-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as some of them were, as was written."
David: That's right.
Seth: "They sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. We must not indulge in sexual immorality, as some of them did, and 23,000 fell in a single day." And so he's like, they had a... They had all this freedom-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and they used that freedom as an excuse to sin-
David: Yes
Seth: ... uh, against their fellow brothers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and against God.
David: And it's interesting-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that he brings up a feast to an idol-
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's right
David: ... at Mount Sinai, the golden calf.
Seth: Yep.
David: And they, they build an idol. They have a feast there. They revel, and they-
Seth: Mm
David: ... probably engage in some kind of ritualistic orgy or some kind of sexual-
Seth: Mm
David: ... ecstatic expression, and, uh, it leads to their destruction in the wilderness.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: They didn't throw off every weight- [chuckles]
Seth: That's right
David: ... to get the prize. Um, and so he's warning them that if you compromise, you don't get the prize.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so he's like, "Just, it's not worth it." [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, all these feasts and everything is not worth it, and he's tiptoeing into another issue here.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, that, yes, there is the issue of food sacrificed to idols in the meat markets.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, that's an issue, and i- if, you, you're free to eat that, uh, but be careful of what that's gonna do to your brother, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There's that whole issue we've been talking about the whole episode. He's tiptoeing into another issue here, where he then is gonna tell them basically not to eat food sacrificed to idols.
Seth: Yeah, I was noticing that in verse 14: "Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry." I was like, "Oh, oh, I didn't know that was the problem."
David: Yes.
Seth: I thought it was like Christian liberty, but now people are... Anyway, tell me more.
David: Yes. So he's going to start talking to them about how dangerous food sacrificed to idols is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he's gonna say, "Think about communion. Whenever you take communion, aren't you participating in the body of Christ? Well, then whenever you eat food sacrificed to idols, aren't you participating in demons?"
Seth: Mm.
David: "Aren't you communing with the demonic whenever you eat food sacrificed to idols?" And it's like, hold on, I thought you just said earlier-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that we're totally free to eat because all food... We didn't talk about this, but-
Seth: Mm
David: ... all food is from God, and if we recognize that He's the giver of food and all-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... all good things come from Him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... then I can receive that with freedom, and I actually am free to eat. And it's those with the weaker conscience that see it as a problem.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, he's tiptoeing into a new issue here, that he's not talking about the meat market food that you would just buy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's now tiptoeing into the-... very cultural, social feasts that would happen at the temples.
Seth: Interesting.
David: And he's like, "Those don't do."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "We're not- uh, y- y- yes, you might be free to eat food sacrificed to idols out in the marketplace-
Seth: Mm.
David: - uh, 'cause it is just meat at that point. But if you go to these meals where there's these rituals and prayers-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and participation at the table of temples with gods, you actually are participating with the demonic.
Seth: So-
David: Don't do it.
Seth: So apparently, then, so the- so this is helpful. So there were some folks like, "We can eat meat sacrificed to idols. Christian freedom, guys."
David: Yep.
Seth: And like, "Hey, you need to be careful the context in which you do that." But some were taking it so far and it says, like, "Well, why not go to the parties?"
David: That's right. Yeah, exactly. They were like, uh, like, "Oh, I'm free to eat the food, I guess I'm free to go to the party."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, no, no, no, no, no [chuckles] there's, there's the other l- ... and I think that, that's like the other-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... line of Christian liberty that we're talking about.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Don't take your Christian liberty so far that you're not disqualifying yourself. [chuckles]
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, that's kind of where they were getting-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is they were like, "Well, I'm free to eat the food, I might as well go to the temple, too."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's saying, "No, no, no, you commune with one God through a meal-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and that is the body of Jesus."
Seth: The, uh, it's, uh, not to bring up the alcohol example again-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but it's, it's one thing to enjoy a glass of wine with dinner.
David: Right.
Seth: It's another thing to get drunk.
David: That's right, yep.
Seth: And he's saying, like, "Yeah, you probably have freedom."
David: Yep.
Seth: "You have freedom to drink a glass of wine."
David: Yep.
Seth: "You don't have freedom to-
David: To get drunk
Seth: ... to commune with the spirits." [chuckles]
David: That's right!
Seth: Right? [laughing]
David: Yeah, yeah, commune with the spirits.
Seth: [laughing]
David: Is that, is that a Christian way of saying, "Get drunk?"
Seth: Yeah. [laughing]
David: Yeah. [laughing] Yeah, anyway, I just thought this has been really interesting to trace his logic, uh, throughout these three chapters, 'cause I've been very confused-
Seth: Yes
David: ... up to this point-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... on what's the line of logic here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... between food sacrificed to idols, and payment of preachers, and athletes running, and Israel in the wilderness? [chuckles]
Seth: Mm.
David: And I'm like, [laughing] "What is going on?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so walking through it was really helpful for me.
Seth: Good.
David: And then it ends in 23, through the end of the chapter, uh, 10, uh, he starts talking about the conscience, and he, and he says, uh, in verse 23, "All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up."
Seth: Mm.
David: "Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the grounds of conscience, for the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." So let me stop there.
Seth: Okay.
David: So he's starting to kind of... he's-
Seth: Okay
David: ... opened a lot of categories.
Seth: Like, he's summarizing.
David: He's summarizing, and he's trying to land the plane.
Seth: Okay.
David: And he's, he's basically saying, like, "Okay, guys, yes, you, you have freedom to do anything," quote, unquote.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Right? Anything within Christian liberty, you have the freedom to do... All things are lawful, but not everything builds up, not everything's helpful.
Seth: Mm.
David: So he's giving them a paradigm here, kind of a philosophical paradigm-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to be like, you might be free to do something, but does it build up the other person? Does it build up the brother?
Seth: Mm.
David: And he's gonna use that language a lot-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when it comes to spiritual gifts in the coming chapters.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: He's like, "The, the gift of prophecy is for building up."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "That's the good stuff."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Love builds up."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: "Like, that's the good stuff." And so he's talking about all these things. So he's like, "Your grid for how to use your freedom is, does my ex- exercise of this freedom build up the people I'm around?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: There you go, there's a grid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So if you're in the market and you wanna buy some ribs, as long as it's not gonna tear someone down, go for it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You're totally free to do that. Why? 'Cause the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. That meat belongs to God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "So eat and drink, whatever you do, to the glory of God," he'll say later.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And but he does give this last little caveat here. He says, um, in verse 27, "If one of the unbelievers..." So now we're bringing in unbelievers, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "... invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever's set before you without raising the question of, on the grounds of conscience." So like you said earlier, like, if your stepmom invites you over-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... and she's not a believer, and she's like, "Here's some meat." You're like, "Cool!"
Seth: "Great, I'll come to dinner."
David: "Thank you."
Seth: "Thank you."
David: "And I'll talk about Jesus while I'm here." Um, but verse 28, "If someone says to you, 'This has been offered in sacrifice,' then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you and for the sake of conscience."
Seth: So the, the, the idea is, you go to your step-mother-in-law's house, and she invites you and your Christian friend.
David: That's right.
Seth: Your other Christian friend.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And then he leans over in the middle of dinner, and he's like, "Hey, man, I think, I think she bought this at the, the Temple of Athena." You, in that moment, instead of, like, placating your mother-in-law, should placate the conscience of your Christian brother.
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: That's right, yeah. So he's kinda helping them very practically-
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... like, get a grid here, and he says, "Also, for the sake of conscience."
Seth: That would be so hard! Just [chuckles] I'm just imagining being at Lynn's house, [chuckles] and like-
David: Your, your mother-in-law
Seth: ... my, my mother-in-law's-
David: Yes
Seth: ... house, and she serves me this great dinner, and then my friend, who's next to me, say, "Hey, I, I can't eat this-
David: Right
Seth: ... because I think, 'cause my conscience is-
David: Right
Seth: ... being..." Or, or, or I-
David: Like, I could, I could-
Seth: I couldn't imagine choosing my friend-
David: Right
Seth: ... over my mother-in-law.
David: Oh, yeah, or, or, or do the-
Seth: Like
David: ... do the wine example again.
Seth: The wine example.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... so, so Lynn, she invites you over.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? And I- let's say I'm there with you, and I have a problem with, with, like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... the alcohol Christian thing really bugs me.
Seth: Okay, yeah.
David: And Lynn is like, "Seth, I'm so glad you're here. I've cooked you this amazing meal, and I know you're a wine connoisseur."
Seth: And he- she-
David: "So I bought a $500 bottle of wine."
Seth: Oh, my gosh, yeah.
David: "It's open, and it's aerating."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And I got it for you." Uh, and she pours you a glass, and you look at me, and I'm so uncomfortable. And you, in that moment, ha- have to deny the glass of wine-
Seth: Ah!
David: ... for my sake. [laughing] Like, that's-
Seth: That'll be hard.
David: That's hard! [laughing]
Seth: That'll be hard.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If you did that for me, I would love you.
David: Thank you.
Seth: I love you anyway.
David: [laughing]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: Oh, that's really funny. So anyway, yeah, so that's... I, I mean, that's kind of the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the j- the gist of the passage here.
Seth: Mm, mm.
David: Where I want us to land, I think we've just kind of unpacked some things. I think we've made some helpful observations for this passage, but this is Spoken Gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where's the gospel? We've said it once, but it's, it just bears repeating-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how beautiful this idea is, 'cause it ends, again, it ends with, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I just love this idea of Jesus being the ultimate free person. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: ... who, and no one has limited themselves more for the sake of another.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, what a beautiful picture-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of how much Jesus loves us. Like, we, we, we cringe at the saying no to a $500 bottle of wine.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: And like, how awkward that would be, how hard.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I really wanted to taste it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Like, it was so good!" Like, and it's like, "Oh, darn it."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, oh, my gosh, like-
Seth: Mm. [chuckles]
David: ... how much does that pale in comparison- [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the eternal God becoming human in a baby?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, spending his whole life serving and loving his creation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... only to be betrayed by them, denied by them-
Seth: Mm
David: ... die for them.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: Like, what self-limiting love, and Jesus won the prize.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He won it for us. Like, he's like, "Come on,"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "children, I'm bringing you with me. I'm not gonna do anything in my-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "entire life that would prohibit you from coming to me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Jesus won the prize for himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He was resurrected.
Seth: Resurrected-
David: Yep
Seth: ... imperishable-
David: That's right, imperishable
Seth: ... undefiled.
David: And he got-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he got a name above every other names.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That the name of Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... every knee should bow.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, what a beautiful picture of the gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The self-limiting love of Jesus saves the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we can participate with him in that-
Seth: Yeah. Yeah
David: ... in limiting ourselves for the sake of others.
Seth: Yeah. That's great. I mean-
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's beautiful. It's... Yeah, and it's a really powerful call to limit ourselves-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in love. I was gonna ask, what do you think, like, a good... There's no good parallel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to, like, meat sacrificed to idols in our... You know, it's like we'd mentioned alcohol.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I'm just trying to think of, like, this is clearly a pretty live issue. It's, like, it implicated almost every meal you ate, or maybe a m- you know, a small... A large minority of meals you ate.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, I'm just trying to think, like, what, what else exists? [chuckles]
David: Yeah, it's a good question.
Seth: Uh-
David: I mean, I think it's helpful that he does mention the conscience here at the end.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's l- uh, uh, I think it's, it's less a matter... And, you know, you're not trying to do this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's less a matter of you and I tr- trying to figure out a taxonomy-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... list of everything that could be possible. It's... He's given a grid here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? To, like, you might be free to do something, but is that damaging your witness of the gospel or somebody else's understanding of it?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, just bear that in your conscience as you live your life-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I think, is, like, the principle to take away.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think of things like money-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is one that, I mean, he even talks about money here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think is, is one that's interesting. So man, if you're a pastor, and you're like, "I really wanna drive an Escalade"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you're free to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But man, you might not want to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because that would probably damage your witness.
Seth: Well, and it's interesting, like, my... It requires me to know the conscience of somebody else-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which is actually-
David: That's good
Seth: ... like, a pretty wild request-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to know the, the hangups of the folks around me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: To know them well enough, to know their hangups.
David: It requires deep community.
Seth: But, I mean, it's, it's pretty, actually a pretty wild level of other- like, knowledge of others.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then once you know that and have that knowledge of others, to actually act differently because of it is actually pretty-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... pretty deeply wild.
David: Yeah. I mean, I think that's... We skipped this part, but it's a very famous part of this passage. I think that's kinda what he's getting at here, in a sense, in, uh, chapter 9, verse 19. Uh, some of you, some of our listeners might be familiar with this: "For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews, I became as a Jew, in order to win the Jews. To those under the law, I became as one under the law, though myself not being under the law, that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law, I became like those outside the law-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... though, uh, not being outside the law of God, but under the law of Christ, that I might win those outside the law. To the weak, I became weak, to, to win the weak. I become all things to all people, that by any means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so in order for... So, so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... take him to, take him... Take Paul to Corinth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, he's gonna eat differently there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... based on the, his knowledge of the consciences of the believers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, and he, he, so he might eat food sacrificed to idols there if he's in the right company.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's like, "Yeah, we're free in Christ. Like, let's, let's eat in our celebration of the defeat of the powers."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, isn't that awesome?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Christ has humiliated the gods. But then he might go over to, to Jerusalem, and he might limit himself from eating-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... any, any unkosher food-
Seth: Right. That's right
David: ... to not damage his witness. He's like, "No, I'm a, I'm a responsible-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Torah expert."
Seth: C- let's speak, let's speak about that.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because, like, damaging the witness makes me think, again, of unbelievers-
David: Okay
Seth: ... not fellow Christians.
David: Yeah. Sure.
Seth: So I guess we, we talked about, like, there's two planes, there's two levels that this applies. Like, one, I am bound to my brother in Christ.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jesus died for both of us, so I have a special responsibility in how I relate to you as Christ related to me.
David: Yes, you do. Yeah.
Seth: I have a different responsibility to unbelievers.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, and Paul is using his conduct with unbelievers as an example to how Christians should act with each other.
David: Mm.
Seth: And when I asked earlier, I was like: Well, shouldn't I limit myself in all possible situations in order to reach other non-believers? Like, I feel like I'm backing myself into that same corner-
David: Mm
Seth: ... again. It's like, if I can limit myself for the sake of the gospel, shouldn't I m- take every opportunity to do so?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, is there no opportunity for enjoyment of good gifts-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if that's the call?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right, so d- do you see why, like, I keep, like, coming back to that?
David: I do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, so I don't think the dichotomy is between believer, unbeliever.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that's a, that's a, um, a more deepening understanding.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the near context is believer-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but then you can extrapolate things to unbelievers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I, I think what's happening here-... is maybe a false dichotomy between limiting every possible thing for the spread of the gospel-
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: -and limiting that which might damage the gospel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Again, is I think-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... a false dichotomy that keeps coming up.
Seth: Yes. Yes.
David: It's not- I don't, and, and I wanna talk, I wanna put a star on this-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... and come back to it. It's not limit everything possible, every freedom, every good thing, to reach one more soul.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? So, like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... never go on vacation.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because if you didn't, you could fund a missionary for one more month.
Seth: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, I don't think that's the point of this passage. Um, it's-
Seth: It's about damaging.
David: It's about damaging the witness of the gospel. Um, so like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, don't go vacation there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, yeah, if Seth went to Vegas-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and went to s- the unsavory part of Vegas-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and posted it on Instagram-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you would damage the witness of the gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Also, you're not really free to do that, but anyway [laughs]
Seth: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
David: But anyway-
Seth: But-
David: ... limiting yourself from things that damage the witness of the gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and so, um, s-
Seth: I'm probably pressing it for too much.
David: Sure.
Seth: The, this passage for too much, 'cause it's like, I'm sure if Jesus posted to Instagram with the tax collectors, people would've gotten mad.
David: That's right.
Seth: Could've gotten mad at that, too.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like there's wi- there... This is an invitation for wisdom here.
David: It is.
Seth: Which is kind of probably Paul's meta note. It's like, be aware of the conscience of others. Be aware of the culture that you're in.
David: Yes.
Seth: Be aware of like... He's like, "Love should cover the thing."
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, the- what we're talking about here is a general attitude of, like, a disposition to self-limit-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... out of love for others.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: That might look differently in a lot of different contexts.
David: It will look differently in every context. [chuckles]
Seth: But that's the, that's the heart of the believer-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is like, self-limiting, like, a disposition to self-limit-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... out of love for one, one else. That doesn't mean ultimate limiting or a limitation of everything.
David: That's right.
Seth: But like, that's the posture of a Christian-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in general.
David: Yep, and I think the asterisk...
Seth: Yeah.
David: I, I completely agree.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think the asterisk I put next to mine is, I think there is an invitation, though-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to meditate on the self-limiting of Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the throwing off of every limit. Um, that it's like, man, the race is real.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And there are things that, um, you, that do encumber you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know?
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and should those be thrown off for the sake of your own salvation? [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And your, and that, that, that, that of those around you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, I, I do wanna mention one thing, since we've talked about liberty-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and then kind of pushed that into the good things of the earth.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I wanna name that, like, even g- even Paul says here, like, "Man, eat and drink to the glory of God."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, the good gifts are from Him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Give glory to God for those.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think there's an equal encumbrance we could put on ourselves for not receiving our Christian liberties.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: Where it's like-
Seth: Yeah, I-
David: ... if you just beat yourself to a pulp-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... over and over again, and never take care of yourself-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like-
Seth: Or even just enjoy, like-
David: Yeah.
Seth: If you don't enjoy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the good things God has-
David: The liberties that-
Seth: Yeah [chuckles]
David: ... Jesus has given you, it's... You're not gonna finish the race, either. It-
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Paul isn't encouraging, like, asceticism or-
David: That's right
Seth: ... or monkishness.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Exactly. Well, there we go.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Fun conversation, Seth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: All right, we're gonna continue, um, our look at some of the, uh, difficult parts of First Corinthians in our next episode. We're gonna look at First Corinthians 11, and head coverings for men and women.
Seth: Ooh!
David: Which will be interesting. So thank you all for joining us, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]