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1 Corinthians Overview: A Wrong View of the Body

About This Episode

Underneath almost every command Paul gives the Corinthian church is a summons to remember that Jesus is coming back soon. Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of all people are the motivation for almost everything he calls his church to do. Seth and David talk about bodies, Jesus' resurrection, and why resurrection bodies were so important to Paul.

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The Resurrection of the Body: Why Paul's Vision for Our Physical Future Changes Everything

Show Notes

In this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, hosts David and Seth continue their exploration of 1 Corinthians by diving deep into what may be the most central and underappreciated theme of the entire letter: the bodily resurrection of believers. Building on their previous episode's introduction to the cultural context of Corinth—a city marked by philosophical sophistication, religious diversity, and moral permissiveness—the hosts unpack how the Corinthians' denial of the future resurrection of their bodies was creating theological and ethical chaos in the church.

The Bodily Resurrection as the Heart of 1 Corinthians

The resurrection of believers' bodies when Jesus returns is not merely one topic among many in 1 Corinthians; it is the theological foundation that underlies nearly every command and ethical instruction Paul gives. While the letter dedicates an entire sustained chapter to this single theological idea in 1 Corinthians 15, the concept of embodiedness and future resurrection permeates the whole letter, shaping Paul's arguments about everything from sexual ethics to church unity.

An important distinction must be made between Jesus's resurrection and the future resurrection Paul addresses. While Christ's resurrection is the "first fruits"—the foundational event that guarantees and patterns what is to come—Paul's primary concern in 1 Corinthians is the future bodily resurrection of every believer. This means that the physical bodies of those who trust in Jesus will not simply disappear or be discarded. God intends to do something transformative and redemptive with our material existence. Paul is emphatic: believers will have bodies when Jesus returns, and it was this very truth that had been eroded in the Corinthian congregation.

The Consequences of Denying the Bodily Resurrection

When believers stop believing that their bodies have a future, they automatically diminish the importance of their bodies in the present. This principle extends beyond personal ethics to how people treat the entire physical world. The logic of "it's all going to burn anyway" leads to treating both bodies and creation with disregard rather than stewardship.

In Corinth, this low view of the body manifested in several ways. The congregation became enamored with speaking in tongues—what they called "the tongues of angels"—prioritizing what seemed most spiritual over what was most earthly and practical. Paul repeatedly encouraged them to pursue embodied expressions of love that encouraged and built up others in their physical, lived experiences rather than getting lost in the language of heaven. When believers deny a future for their bodies, they develop an over-realized view of spiritual existence and begin to imagine themselves as divided beings—a soul trapped in a body rather than an integrated, embodied soul.

The creation account in Genesis illustrates this unity: God formed humanity from the ground and breathed into them, and they became a "living nephesh"—a living soul. This Hebrew term is holistic, not separating spirit from body but describing an integrated, living creature. Paul actually quotes this very passage in 1 Corinthians 15:45, using it to establish that humans are fundamentally embodied, soulish beings. The denial of this unity creates the kind of dualism that plagued Greek philosophy and continues to shape modern thinking, from popular culture's "Freaky Friday" body-swapping narratives to the assumption that the ultimate Christian hope is merely "going to heaven when you die" as a disembodied spirit singing in the clouds with a harp.

The Body, Sexual Ethics, and the Indwelling of God

Paul's argument about the body reaches its most pointed expression in 1 Corinthians 6, where he addresses sexual immorality. The Corinthians had developed a slogan: "Food is meant for the stomach, and the stomach for food, and God will destroy both one and the other." Their reasoning was clear—since the body will eventually be destroyed anyway, sexual activity is merely an appetite to be satisfied without moral consequence. Paul's response is emphatic and theologically rich.

The body is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. This remarkable statement suggests that human bodies are designed to be the dwelling place of God, temples of the Holy Spirit. Paul offers five exalted ways to understand the physical body: it belongs to the Lord, it is Christ's body expressed on earth, it has been purchased with Jesus's blood, it will be raised on the last day, and it is the home of God's eternal Spirit. This represents a staggeringly high view of physical existence that exceeds most religious and philosophical perspectives, including much of how Christianity is popularly practiced and understood.

The logic of Paul's argument about sexual purity depends on understanding the profound unity between God's Spirit and the believer's body. When someone trusts in Jesus, God's Spirit does not merely inhabit their body as a shell but becomes unified with them in a way analogous to the "one flesh" union described in Genesis. This is why Paul can argue that joining oneself to a prostitute means joining Christ's body to her—the believer has been woven together with God's presence so intimately that their physical actions implicate Christ himself. Sexual immorality is thus uniquely described as a sin against one's own body, a category that only makes sense if the body possesses inherent dignity and goodness that can be violated.

The Church as One Body in Christ

The same theological logic that shapes Paul's sexual ethics also undergirds his understanding of the church community in 1 Corinthians 12. Just as individuals are members of Christ, believers together form one body with Christ as the head. The metaphor of hands, feet, ears, and eyes working together is more than mere illustration—it reflects an actual spiritual reality about the interconnectedness of believers. When someone has a low view of the body, they inevitably develop a low view of the people they worship with, because the church is Christ's body expressed on earth.

This understanding explains why Paul addresses divisions in the church with such urgency. In 1 Corinthians 1, he asks rhetorically, "Is Christ divided?" The question reveals that factional splits within the congregation are not merely social problems but attempts to do something ontologically impossible—dividing Jesus's body. Those who try to separate into camps based on their favorite teachers are living in unreality, practicing a kind of insanity because Christ is fundamentally whole and cannot be torn apart. Throughout the letter, nearly every use of "you" is in the plural form, emphasizing that Paul's instructions address the community as a unified whole rather than isolated individuals.

The implications extend to how believers value one another. If what matters most is not people's lived physical experiences but only their knowledge or spiritual attainments, the church will inevitably become a place of judgment rather than love. Paul addresses this directly in 1 Corinthians 8, warning that knowledge puffs up while love builds up. A diminished view of bodies leads to diminished care for embodied people who are suffering, hurting, or in need of practical encouragement.

The Goodness and Glory of the Resurrection Body

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul moves from arguing for the necessity of believing in bodily resurrection to demonstrating its goodness. Some in Corinth raised skeptical questions: "How are the dead raised? What kind of body do they come with?" Behind these questions lurked the assumption that bodily resurrection would be disgusting—a reanimation of corpses in whatever broken, diseased, or mutilated state they died. Paul calls such questioning foolish, not because the questions themselves lack validity but because the questioners failed to observe the obvious lessons of agriculture.

When a seed is planted, what grows is not a larger version of the seed but something entirely different—a stalk, a tree, a flower. There is continuity between seed and plant, but also radical transformation. Paul applies this analogy directly: "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." The crucial phrase "spiritual body" maintains the emphasis on embodiment while indicating a transformation beyond current physical limitations. Believers will not become disembodied spirits; they will possess glorified, imperishable bodies animated fully by God's Spirit.

Paul then returns to the Genesis creation narrative, contrasting Adam and Christ as two representative humans. Adam became a living being but brought death; Christ, the last Adam, became a life-giving Spirit who brings resurrection. Just as all who are in Adam bear his image of dust and death, all who are in Christ will bear his image of heaven and life. The connection point between these two realities is death itself—the grave is transformed from an ending into a beginning, from a place of destruction into farmland where glorified bodies will grow. This is why Paul can quote the prophets mockingly: "O Death, where is your sting? O Grave, where is your victory?" Death has lost its power because Jesus has turned graves into gardens.

Living Now in Light of What Will Be

The incarnation itself stands as the ultimate proof of God's love for the body. If embodiment were inherently degraded or evil, why would the eternal God take on human flesh? The early church wrestled with heresies that denied Christ's true humanity precisely because cultural assumptions undervalued physical existence. Yet God looked at creation and declared it "very good," then became a human being himself so that he could live with humanity in physical space forever.

This reality has profound implications for how believers live in the present. If bodies have eternal futures, then bodily ethics matter eternally. If the church is truly Christ's body on earth, then treating fellow believers with dignity and pursuing unity become acts of reverence toward Christ himself. The entire ethical framework of 1 Corinthians depends on the resurrection—without it, as Paul argues, there is no point in being a Christian at all. This is not rhetorical overstatement but a recognition that everything Christians believe and practice is tied to the hope that death is not final and that bodies will be raised.

The letter itself emerged from genuinely sinful situations—divisions, sexual immorality, misbelief, and chaos within the Corinthian church. Yet out of that death and dysfunction grew this profound theological reflection that has blessed believers for two thousand years. In this way, the letter embodies its own message: what tends toward death, destruction, and grossness can become the soil from which resurrection life grows. Jesus has joined himself to human bodies and will remain joined to them forever. Therefore, believers are called to live differently—honoring the bodies God has given, loving one another as members of the same body, and holding fast to the hope that the seed planted in the ground will one day burst forth into glorious, eternal life.

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Transcript

David: [mellow music] This is the part where he says, like, "If Jesus isn't raised, all of our belief is pointless."

Seth: That's right. Yes, he says that.

David: Resur- if we don't have the hope of a resurrection-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... there's no point in being a Christian.

Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our look at the book of First Corinthians.

Seth: That's right, First Corinthians.

David: Well, last episode, we kinda did the introduction, we looked at the background, we looked at what it meant to Korinthiatzo someone.

Seth: Mm-hmm. That's right.

David: Uh, to live as a Corinthian-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... which was just-

Seth: If you know, you know. [chuckles]

David: If you know, you know. You gotta go back and listen. Uh, and we got the setting, that basically Corinth was this very diverse, uh, rich, uh, city. You could kinda think, like, Great Gatsby, New York-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... mixed with Sin City, Vegas, mixed with Beverly Hills.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it was this melting pot of religion and ideas, and they were very philosophical and wise in their own eyes, and they brought all of that into this new baby church that Paul started.

Seth: Yes.

David: And three years have gone by since it was planted, and they start this, like, correspondence chain of letters.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And Paul's writing to them about some bad things he's hearing, and the Corinthians clap back with their own letter.

Seth: That's right.

David: And they're like, "No, we can do whatever we want, 'cause we're free in Christ."

Seth: "You're wrong, Paul. We're right."

David: And then we get First Corinthians, where Paul says, "All right, I'm gonna lean in here and get a little hot-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and tell you why you should be ashamed of all the shameful things you're doing."

Seth: Yeah. [laughing]

David: "But I'm also going to fill it with the gospel, and with love-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and forgiveness-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and I'm gonna call you saints." And we reflected on that for a while, and then we ended-

Seth: Yes

David: ... talking about the resurrection of our physical bodies.

Seth: Yes.

David: And how the Corinthians stopped believing in that, and you promised that we'd get to talk about that more today.

Seth: Yes, that's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: The resurrection of believers' bodies when Jesus returns seems to be the driving... the, the most important thing in the book of First Corinthians.

David: Mm.

Seth: Not only do we have a sustained full chapter on just this one theological idea, but the idea of a future resurrection and the idea of embodiedness-

David: Mm

Seth: ... underlines almost every single command or ethical imperative or instruction that Paul gives to the Corinthians.

David: Okay, I'm excited to look at that, but to- I wanna, I wanna, like, clear one thing up.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause for me, I have to do, like, mental gymnastics-

Seth: Yes

David: ... every time you say the word resurrection.

Seth: Okay.

David: Where it's like, "The resurrection of the body." I just think, "Yeah, when Jesus was raised from the dead." [chuckles]

Seth: Right.

David: And that's not what we're talking about.

Seth: No.

David: Although, that underlies it. It's the first fruits. It's the, the-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the one that undergirds the whole resurrection-

Seth: Yes

David: ... pattern, but you're talking about a future-

Seth: Right

David: ... resurrection of my body.

Seth: That's right.

David: Like, David Bowden's body- [chuckles]

Seth: That's right

David: ... being raised, and-

Seth: That's right

David: ... Seth's, and Christine, and you listening.

Seth: Yes.

David: That there's a future resurrection of the body, that, um, we don't just disappear. These ph- these physical bodies don't just go away.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That God's gonna do something with them materially.

Seth: That's right.

David: And that-

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Okay.

Seth: Paul is very emphatic that we will have bodies-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when Jesus returns.

David: Right.

Seth: And it's that truth that has been eroded in Corinth. And I think just even your confusion over the term just sh- proves, like, how much like Corinth we still are.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, we talked about how Freaky Friday is, like, an example of, like, a dualism in our culture.

David: Yeah, that my mind can just go into another body-

Seth: We're-

David: ... 'cause the mind's what really matters.

Seth: Yeah, the mind is what really matters. Like, if you ever heard somebody just say, like, like, "The, the point of being a Christian is just going to heaven when you die..."

David: Mm.

Seth: If you've thought about being in heaven as this, like, this disembodied, like, singing in the clouds, like, with a harp, like-

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: Like, all these are functions of a insufficient imagination about what happens when Jesus comes back-

David: Right

Seth: ... and what's gonna happen to us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, and Paul wants to make sure we understand, no, no, we will be bodily raised. Some form of this-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... will come back.

David: Right.

Seth: And that impacts how we live right now.

David: Yeah. I remember talking to my five-year-old about this often.

Seth: Yeah?

David: Uh, and he, for the longest time, was really scared of, like, the whole idea of death, obviously, and, like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... once he started to wrap his head around that, he was, he was just like, "Uh... oh, that's scary." Well, then we started talking about heaven, and then he started to get really sad when we'd talk about heaven.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, because even he, even though I didn't give this to him-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... he just imported this idea that he'd be going somewhere else, and he would lose all the stuff in this world that he really likes-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and that's good. And he's like, "Well, where are my toys gonna be?" And, um, like, "Am I gonna be able to jump on a trampoline?" And you know, [chuckles] and all those-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and, like, "Can I-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... hang out with my little brother?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we had to, like, help him, like, develop-

Seth: Yes

David: ... a view

David: that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... after death, when Jesus comes back, all, like, all the things you love in this physical world are actually still gonna be there and be perfected.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, um, I think that still, for some reason, feels, like, scandalous to say-

Seth: Mm, mm-hmm

David: ... in our context.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Because I think we are so mind-centered-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that it's, we only have this spiritual reality ahead of us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But I think what we're gonna talk about today is there's a physical reality ahead of us-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... even after death, when Jesus returns.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, but then what I'm really interested to see you unpack is-... how does that undergird everything Paul's doing in his letter?

Seth: Yes.

David: 'Cause I don't know, I don't have a sense of that.

Seth: Yes.

David: So I'm very excited.

Seth: Well, let's talk about what, whether you intend it or not, what happens when you don't believe that there's a future for our bodies?

David: Well, that's a good question. Yeah.

Seth: And so we talked a lot in the last episode about how, like, a pagan dualism-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... kinda underlies a lot of, like, the divisions and conflict that's happening in Corinth and, like, that's kind of a, an assumption our culture has, and Greek culture has. But that does feel a little more, like, hypothetical or theoretical.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's like, ma- how would those two things talk to each other? Paul is really explicit.

David: Mm.

Seth: He said, "It's your denial of the bodily resurrection that's ca- causing your failure to have an appropriate view of your body." When you deny that our bodies have a future, we automatically diminish the importance of our bodies right now.

David: Yes.

Seth: Right?

David: We do the same thing to the world.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah. "Oh, it's all gonna burn, so-

Seth: It's all gonna burn, so-

David: ... Just go ahead and treat the world like crap."

Seth: That's right.

David: Right.

Seth: If we don't believe that our bodies have a future, we'll have a low view of our bodies now. If we believe our f- eternal existence is spiritual, we're gonna prioritize spiritual things right now.

David: Yes.

Seth: The way that looked in Corinth was, they were really into speaking in tongues.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: They were... They called them the tongues of angels.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so they were just into what seemed most spiritual-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and not most earthly, which Paul keeps encouraging them to do. Do stuff that encourages other people. Like, the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... right? Instead of getting, like, lost in the [chuckles] language of heaven-

David: Just, like, be nice to each other. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, like, encourage one another where you're hurting.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Where they're suffering, talk to them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, yeah. So you don't- when you deny a future b- body for believers-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... you have a low view of your own body, a h- high- an over-realized view of what spiritual existence-

David: It seems really spiritual.

Seth: Right. And then

Seth: obviously, uh, you kind of begin to imagine yourself as, like, two things.

David: Mm.

Seth: I'm a... There's a division within me between my soul and my body.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: And like, I'm not... I don't have... Like, I think most people think they have a body.

David: But they're not a body.

Seth: Like-

David: I, I have a body, but I'm not a body.

Seth: That's right.

David: Is that what you're saying?

Seth: I have a soul. Like, I'm a soul with-

David: I am a sp- a soul or a spirit

Seth: ... With a body.

David: With a body.

Seth: But Paul-

David: Oh!

Seth: But Paul's like, "No, no, no, no, no, you are an embodied soul."

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, that's what... You are that thing.

David: I mean, yeah, you look at the creation story-

Seth: You are a body.

David: Yeah, you look at the creation-

Seth: Yes

David: ... story, and God formed man-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and breathed on him, and he became a living nephesh.

Seth: Yes.

David: A living soul, and that word nephesh, that soul, is a holistic term.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's not separating the ruach, the breath of God, the spirit of God, from the, the, the creature on the ground.

Seth: That's right.

David: It is this holistic being, a living creature.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that's who you are. You are an integrated, living creature.

Seth: Yes. He actually quotes that passage.

David: Oh, oh, my gosh [chuckles]-

Seth: And, uh-

David: ... I actually did not do that on purpose

Seth: ... In, in 1 Corinthians 15:44 and on, I will start in verse 45, "Thus, it is written, the first man, Adam, became a living being." Yes, he's quoting the exact same passage as you to kind of get at this idea that we are an embodied, soulish thing.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he'll actually go on to, like, actually contrast the type of reality that we live in because of Adam, and the type of reality that we are in now because of Christ.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: And so he- what he's saying is... And he'll, he has this... It's a long argument. We will get to it today.

David: Okay.

Seth: The pur- purpose of today.

David: Okay.

Seth: But what he's doing right here is he's simply saying, like, "Hey, Adam came, and we died."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "Our bodies died. Jesus come, and His body raised-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and so will ours." And so, and like, our-

David: Mm

Seth: ... our embodied soul will rise. Does that, does that, does that make sense?

David: It makes too much sense-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... and now I have too many questions.

Seth: Okay, great. Great. You can keep going with your questions.

David: Are you sure? [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah, that's fine. That's what we're here for.

David: Okay. [chuckles]

Seth: Help David read his Bible. [laughing]

David: Uh, what I, what I, what I thought you might have just said, which is, uh, it is like, okay, so we're, we're bodies.

Seth: Yes.

David: And we're this, you know, and but, and there's more to a body than just flesh-

Seth: Yes

David: ... but it's this one thing, and in Adam, we are bodies who die.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, and that's it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, uh, but I, I, I've-

Seth: Yes, yes

David: ... kind of always... But that kind of breaks things in my brain-

Seth: Yes, yes

David: ... 'cause it's like, didn't Abraham or, like, his spirit go somewhere, or-

Seth: You know what's funny?

David: Uh, and, and then did e- everything change when Jesus raised... I'm so... Uh, now I'm confused. [chuckles]

Seth: You know what's really funny?

David: What? [chuckles]

Seth: Is that that unanswered question by Paul in 1 Corinthians-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... is picked up in 2 Corinthians.

David: What?

Seth: Yeah, Paul will talk about, like, "Let me clear up a miscommunication."

David: Oh, my soul.

Seth: So he'll, he'll answer, answer that question- [chuckles]

David: I love it

Seth: ... in 2 Corinthians. [chuckles]

David: I love that 1 Corinthians made me confused.

Seth: Right.

David: And then he tells me that, "Oh, yeah-

Seth: That's right

David: ... I know you got confused by that. Let me clear it up."

Seth: It means you're reading 1 Corinthians right, though.

David: Oh, good. [chuckles]

Seth: You're, you're reading it as Paul intends you to write it, and the gap- the question that he didn't answer, he's like, "Oh, yeah, I didn't answer that. Let me talk about it now." [chuckles]

David: That's hilarious.

Seth: [laughs]

David: So do I have to wait till the 2 Corinthians podcast to get the answer?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Oh, man!

Seth: But- [laughing]

David: Come on. Give me a teaser.

Seth: He says, "To be away from the body is to be with Jesus."

David: Yes.

Seth: And so there is some sort of spiritual existence-

David: Right

Seth: ... but it is not our ultimate existence.

David: Yes.

Seth: And he'll go on to say, like, that mo- however, whatever it means to be with Jesus, eventually we will be unifi- like, our bodies-

David: Yes

Seth: ... will be restored to the way they're meant to be.

David: Right.

Seth: So-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... anyway.

David: That makes sense.

Seth: Yes.

David: It just, like, my last stab there would be, like, it's wh- it's one of the reasons why, um, in the courts of Heaven in Revelation, you have people crying out for Jesus to open the scroll and, like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... come back to Earth and do-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the resurrection thing.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, yes, because those, like, martyrs want justice-

Seth: Yes

David: ... but also because-... like, this is not where we-

Seth: Yes

David: ... are ending up-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in this spiritual state.

Seth: To be only a spirit-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is not ideal.

David: That's right.

Seth: That God intends us to be bodies forever.

David: That's right. I want taste buds forever.

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: Uh, yes. [chuckles]

Seth: So here's something else that happens-

David: Okay

Seth: ... when you deny the bodily resurrection. You ultimately will have a low view of other people.

David: That's definitely true.

Seth: Because if what's most important is not other people's lived experiences, but what they know-

David: Mm

Seth: ... you are automatically gonna start judging them for their lack of wisdom, knowledge, or spirituality, and you'll negate their physical experience, and this actually happens in the Book of First Corinthians.

David: Mm.

Seth: In the Book of First Corinthians, chapter 8, um, he says this: "Now concerning food offered to idols: All of us possess knowledge, but this knowledge puffs up. But love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought.

David: Mm.

Seth: But if anyone loves, uh, God, he is known by God."

David: Wow.

Seth: And so what he's doing here is say, "Hey, your low view of the body has diminished your view of other people, and all you care about is your knowledge compared to their knowledge."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "And you've failed to love them as people." Does that, does that make sense?

David: Yeah, yes.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Yes, yes.

Seth: And so he- so and throughout the letter, he's gonna continue to emphasize that when believers get together, they are one body.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he has this really complicated analogy of, like, Jesus being the head of a body, and we being his hands, and his feet, and his ears, and his eyes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that we can't just dismiss one part of the body, like we don't need it, but we're all together. If my toe hurts, my whole body actually hurts. Like, Paul's whole understanding... Like, he says, like, when you deny the bodily resurrection, you're actually diminishing the reality of your connectedness-

David: With one another

Seth: ... with one another.

David: Mm.

Seth: So a lot's on the line for Paul in how we understand the future of our bodies.

David: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm thinking, too, about this is also so appropriate for our cultural moment, where I think a lot of churches, even ones I've gone to, and, uh, like, I think we're all guilty of it at some s- in some sense, we are- we overemphasize what we want people to believe and know-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and underemphasize how we are, are to love one another-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and be together as-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... reformed humans.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, and, and it's just fascinating. Like, uh, like the most extreme version I can think of, and it's really graphic, but- [chuckles]

Seth: Go for it. [laughing]

David: ... is, is, uh, Charlemagne. Like-

Seth: Oh, gosh, [chuckles] that's not what I was expecting.

David: Right, yeah. But, you know, he was Roman, right?

Seth: French?

David: French, I don't know. Charlemagne. [laughing]

Seth: [laughing]

David: I, I actually don't know. Um, but all I remember is-

Seth: Good analogy. Keep going. [chuckles]

David: ... it's, it's the story, though, of he would for... He, like, he would, he would go on these, you know, big military campaigns, and he would conquer, like, an, an army.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then he would take them down to water, and under threat of death, he would say, "Be baptized-"

Seth: Oh

David: ... "into Jesus or die."

Seth: Wow.

David: Because he, he was only focused, and he thought he was doing the will of God. He was only focused on what they believed.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And their bodies didn't matter.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so if they were baptized, "Cool, you get to live-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and now you can be a prisoner of war. [chuckles] Or if you don't, I'm just gonna kill you." And he had the lowest view of the body and the highest-

Seth: Mm

David: ... view of the mind.

Seth: That's fascinating.

David: And what does it lead to? It leads to

David: ev- evangelism by execution.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is not a [chuckles] great way to be human or a Christian.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So...

Seth: It's a- in, like, a more modern example, it's also the logic that underlies, like, a lot of, like, plastic surgery or body modification-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or, like, gender reassignment surgery.

David: Mm.

Seth: There's, like, something underneath it that says, "My body is not good-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and my mind should shape my bodily reality."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, like, it's, it's fascinating 'cause, like, we talk about dualism as if it's an Ancient Greek thing, but it feels like-

David: Very modern

Seth: ... more modern and, like, far more basic. It's a, it's, it's a denial of what the hope of the gospel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like it's, it's more of a, a human problem than it seems like a cultural problem. It's like humans just don't like the bodies they were born into.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And-

David: And God loves them.

Seth: And God loves them.

David: And wants to redeem them and raise them forever, and be with the body He gave you forever.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, He loves your body.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He loves the way He made you.

Seth: Yes.

David: Well, that's actually... We've stumbled onto something very powerful, [chuckles] actually.

Seth: R- can we just read Romans 6?

David: Sure. [chuckles]

Seth: Uh, or not Romans 6.

David: Romans 6. [chuckles]

Seth: First Corinthians 6.

David: Yes.

Seth: He's, um, talking about the reasons why, uh, the Corinthians shouldn't be Corinthiazowing. [chuckles]

David: [chuckles]

Seth: Uh, they shouldn't be, uh, committing sexual immorality, and he says this in verse, uh, 14, or I'll start in verse 13. He's quoting to them one of their slogans.

David: Yes.

Seth: "One of your slogans is, 'Food is meant for the stomach, and the stomach for food. And God will destroy both one and the other.'" So he's saying the body doesn't matter, 'cause God's gonna burn it up.

David: That's right.

Seth: Right?

David: Yep.

Seth: Uh, sex is just an appetite, so it doesn't matter-

David: Yep

Seth: ... if I-

David: Just feed the beast, doesn't matter.

Seth: Yeah, it's gonna die anyway. But then his response is, "No, the body's not meant for sexual immor- immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lo-" And which is a, we-

David: Yes

Seth: ... like, a crazy... What does it mean by, "My body is-"

David: Is meant for the Lord?

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles] I think he talks about this a little, but I think it's meant to be the dwelling place of God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We are the, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Anyway, uh, "And the Lord for the body, and God raised the Lord, and will raise us up by His power."

David: Mm.

Seth: "Our bodies will actually last forever. They won't burn up. Do you not know that your..." So it's like, "Your bodies won't burn up. Your bodies are for the Lord," and then he says, "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?"

David: Mm.

Seth: He's like, he's giving dignif- like, this is the third reason why our body is a dignified and good thing.

David: Mm.

Seth: It is the invisible Christ who is reigning in Heaven-... it's his physical manifestation on the earth. You are the hands and feet of Jesus, literally.

David: Yeah, lit- li- literally.

Seth: Literally. Um, and then he goes on to say in verse, uh, 19, "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own. You were bought with a price. Your bodies were bought with a price."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So you have these five really exalted ways to think about your physical body. It's the Lord's, it is Christ's body on earth, it has been bought by Jesus's blood, it will be raised on the last day, it is the home of God's eternal spirit.

David: Gosh, yeah.

Seth: Like, that's what your body is.

David: Yeah. Man, [laughs] yeah. Paul or the Bible or God-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... like, has such a higher view of the body than pretty much any religion-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and any philosophy, and even Christianity as it's often practiced and understood.

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh, that is fascinating. What I can't get away from is that what, what... Like, that thing you quoted about the body is for the Lord, and the Lord-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... for the body, and I'm just thinking about the, the incarnation-

Seth: Okay

David: ... and everything that means. That-

Seth: Mm, mm

David: ... um, we'll have an eternal incarnation, that, you know, Jesus was raised incarnated-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and embodied, we'll be raised embodied, and we'll live with him forever in bodies.

Seth: Yes.

David: And it just, like, stuck in my head, this idea that one of the reasons God made us in bodies, and one of the reasons why he came in a body, was to live with us bodily.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, he just wants to be with us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, he loves us so much. Like, I was, I was just-

Seth: Mm

David: ... I was just, uh, texting a friend, uh, this morning, uh, Taylor.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, and I was... I sent him a video message, 'cause he lives in California now, and I just-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, I was just missing him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I just, like, missed him like crazy.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I just sent him a video message, 'cause I didn't wanna text him words. I didn't wanna just send my voice. I want him to see my face.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And all I could express to him was how badly I wanted him to come to Oklahoma, or how badly I wanted to go out to see him in California.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause I was just like, "I love you"-

Seth: Yes

David: ... "and, like, I wanna be with you. I wanna be incarnated with you."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, like, that deep love and friendship-

Seth: Mm

David: ... like, compelled God to be made a human-

Seth: Yeah. Good

David: ... so he could live with us in a physical space.

Seth: If you, if you doubt our... God's love for the body, I mean, why on earth would he ha- put on one?

David: Right. [laughs]

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yes.

David: Which, I mean, really messed with the early church. Like, a lot of heresies came up around this idea that, well, was God-

Seth: Oh, yes

David: ... actually incarnated?

Seth: Yes.

David: Was he really human?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Because, like, that just breaks so many theological sensitivities-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that God become human, because we just don't value our bodies enough, and say, "Well, God can't become human-

Seth: Right

David: ... because to be human is to be terrible."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And God's like, "No, remember what I said when I made humans? I said, it's really stinking good." [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: "This is very good."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, "I made a human body, and I was like, I nailed it!"

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... "And then I became one myself, so we could all live in that good place together as good creatures."

Seth: Really good.

David: Oh, man.

Seth: I like that.

David: Oh!

Seth: Yeah.

David: This is a lot.

Seth: It's a lot. [laughs]

David: I'm spinning.

Seth: It's, it's a lot. I, I mean... And I don't think it's... This is the right, this is the right thing to be thinking about.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's most apparent in his conversation about sexual morality, but the second place that the theme of the body is most apparent is als- is in 1 Corinthians 12.

David: Oh. Before we leave-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... 6.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I was just thinking, we, we've been kinda riffing on the, how good the body is-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and how we need to elevate our view of it.

Seth: Yes.

David: But he's using that to talk about being sexually pure.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: And so I just wanna, like-

Seth: That's right

David: ... zoom in there for a second.

Seth: Yes. Okay, go for it.

David: Uh, so, like, how, how does that go together?

Seth: Mm, mm, mm.

David: 'Cause, uh, the body's so good, so, uh, flee from sexual immorality. Like, put those together for us.

Seth: Yes. Um, here's the logic. Here's how he says it. Um, "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?" So your, your, your body is one [chuckles] is Jesus's body on Earth. "Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute?"

David: Mm.

Seth: "Never! Or don't you know..." That's that phrase that we talked about before.

David: Oh, right. Yeah. "Don't you... You're supposed to know this."

Seth: Uh, "That he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her?"

David: Mm.

Seth: "For as it is written, 'The two become one flesh.'" And so he's ma- he's appealing to the Book of Genesis-

David: Yep

Seth: ... again. He's like, "Say, hey, when Adam and Eve came together, God said they became one flesh."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And that spiritual, physical un- unity, and those are... It's a, a dual thing, right? We're not

Seth: spirits or just bodies.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's a spiritual, physical unity.

David: Unity, yep.

Seth: There's something metaphysical about that physical union. You're also metaphysically joining God's body to a prostitute's body.

David: Mm.

Seth: Verse, uh, 17, or I'll re-read. "For as it is written, the two will become one flesh, but he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him." So flee from sexual immorality.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, you don't want to be doing... mixing [chuckles] God's

Seth: holy presence with unholy union-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is kind of his more broad point, and the prostitute example is a particularly powerful example.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But it, it, it broadens to anything that you do with your body, and which is what he does next. He says, "Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

David: Mm.

Seth: Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?"

David: Wow. Yeah.

Seth: So he's like, "Hey, greed and, uh, violence, all that's outside of you."

David: Mm.

Seth: "But this is, has to do with your low view of the body."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "And don't you know that sexual impropriety-... is a sin against your own body.

David: Which is just fan-

Seth: Yeah

David: - fascinating that he even has that category, that you can sin against your body.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That the body must be so good that it can be sinned against.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and to even bring in temple imagery here?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: The temple is this holy place-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, where you've gotta make sure everything's clean, and right, and perfect-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and ordered, and God's presence lives in it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's this good thing, and you can sin against the temple.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And the ramifications for that are, like, fire coming out-

Seth: Yeah [laughs]

David: ... and consuming you. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it's pretty intense.

Seth: It's a pretty g-

David: Because it's such a holy-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's such a good thing. Why? 'Cause it's God's house.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And he's like, "That's you!

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's your body. Yeah, whenever you use that good thing in bad ways, especially sexually-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, you're sinning against its purpose.

Seth: Yes.

David: But when you y- when you-

Seth: And what it will become.

David: And what it will become.

Seth: Yes, but yeah.

David: But, but then he's like, "But if you join with God"-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... which that's just a whole different-

Seth: Yes

David: ... thing. [laughs] But there's this-

Seth: If you are God's house, if he lives inside of you, yeah. [laughs]

David: That there's this, yeah, spiritual indwelling of God in your body, that that is this two becoming one intimacy-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that we're actually made for.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, uh, and that's just making me think that y- y- you've been, you've been trying to-

Seth: Yes

David: ... you've been trying to-

Seth: Yes

David: ... like, squish this dualism into a-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... unity.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so we have, like, this spirit-body dualism.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um-

Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm

David: ... that you're like, "No, there's a unity and a oneness there, that we're body-spirits, and we're like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... they're, they're both valuable." So then to say that if God's spirit moves in with me and becomes one flesh with me, that there's a deep union-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that's created there?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That I'm not, um, some shell that the spirit-

Seth: That's right

David: ... comes and fills.

Seth: That's right.

David: That there's now a unity there-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that I become one with God, in a way.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's why Paul can say, "When you sleep with a prostitute-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you're uniting Jesus's flesh with her flesh."

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's how intimately you've been woven-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and unified with God-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in the indwelling.

David: This is really messing with me. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: I'm like, I didn't realize how much of a dualist I still was. [laughs]

David: [laughs] It's like...

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: Oh!

Seth: Uh...

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: And so, uh-

David: All right, what else you wanna b-

Seth: Well-

David: ... blow my mind with, Seth?

Seth: Well, and this kind of under... So this same logic that is underneath Paul's commands in 1 Corinthians 12, or his understanding of the Church as a body, so as individuals-

David: [exhales] Yeah

Seth: ... we are

Seth: the members of Christ.

David: Yep.

Seth: But Christ has many members, because he's a complicated body, like all bodies. All of our bodies have 10 fingers, and 10 toes, and-

David: Not all of them

Seth: ... two legs. Well, I mean, [laughs] you know.

David: Yeah, you're right. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] Yeah. Potentially.

David: Potentially.

Seth: Y- but you know-

David: Yes

Seth: ... like, we're made up of a whole bunch of distinct-

David: That's right

Seth: ... parts.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so he's saying, "Hey, we're one temple as God's people."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "And now we are one body as God's people."

David: Yep.

Seth: And so this goes back to the idea of, like, if you have a low view of the body, you have a low view of the people you go to church with.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Because that's the body of Christ expressed on the Earth. You're a part of a wider body.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: And the whole

Seth: 1 Corinthians 12 and on is all about this. "For just as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Jesus. For in one spirit we were all baptized into one body, Jews and Greeks and slaves and free, and all were made to drink of one spirit." It's like we are all,

Seth: as a church, as united with one another as my body and soul is united within us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: [laughs]

David: That's what I was just thinking, and was trying to grapple with, then you had to say it out loud. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Seth, but I'm an individual. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Fun fact: I think there are only five times that the

Seth: second person singular-

David: Singular

Seth: ... is used in all of 1 Corinthians.

David: Whoa!

Seth: When it says, "You are a temple of the Holy Spirit," it's-

David: That's the plural.

Seth: It's plural.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's, like, almost every time, he's talking to the whole people.

David: There, there is a level of unity there

David: from brother to sister, like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... inside the church, that

David: is just... I gotta th- I just need to meditate on for-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... much longer than I have. Um-

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Ca- uh, I think it's because it's not, it's not a metaphor. Like, it's not just a metaphor-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I think is what's blowing my mind.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Is it's not a metaphor. Like, it's... this, 1 Corinthians 12 has been really helpful for me in understanding the diversity of the body, and understanding the need for the whole body.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That, like, man, we, we need, we need hands and we need feet.

Seth: Mm.

David: We need legs, and we, and we need hair.

Seth: We need preachers and admin people.

David: Exactly.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yes, a- and, and, and the dignity of every part of the body.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? Like, the-

Seth: Mm

David: ... all of these things-

Seth: Yes

David: ... I feel like I've spent a lot of time thinking about and valuing.

Seth: Yes.

David: What, uh, what is blowing my mind here is the same thing, where it's this actual unity between God's spirit and my body-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that there's a oneness there-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that I'm not just indwelt, I'm actually incarnated-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in a sense there.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Which just feels, like, super mystical and crazy-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and insane. But that same thing is happening with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Seth: Yes.

David: That there's a oneness there, an actual oneness there-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that I

David: don't give enough dignity and weight to-

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yes

David: ... because it's so outside-

Seth: Mm

David: ... of my worldview. Like, and-

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and-

Seth: Yes

David: ... my lived experience and my grid for being a person.

Seth: Yeah, I mean, Paul thinks of it this way. Go all the way back to the beginning of the book-

David: Mm

Seth: ... 1 Corinthians 1, um, when he's talking about divisions, their favorite preachers. And he says, "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no division among you."... but that you be united in the same mind and the same spirit.

David: Mm.

Seth: And then he goes on and describes, "Hey, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas." And then in verse 13, he says this: "Is Christ divided?"

David: Oh, right.

Seth: It's like when you're start to do what you're doing, you're not just dividing into factions.

David: Yes.

Seth: You are dividing Jesus's body.

David: Well-

Seth: Or-

David: No, no, you- you're, you're living in an unreality.

Seth: Right! You c- that's impossible.

David: You're doing... You're trying to do something outside of reality, contrary to reality.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You're, you're practicing insanity-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because you're trying to divide, but Christ is a whole.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And-

Seth: That's right

David: ... you're trying to act like your left and right hand aren't a part of the same body.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So you're going to go insane-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... because that's not what's actually true.

Seth: Yeah, or you're gonna mutilate something.

David: Yeah, well, I don't think you can mutilate-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... Jesus's body, right? Like-

Seth: Well, that's a threat. It's like, I mean, because people... I mean, they have to cut somebody out of the church-

David: Right

Seth: ... in 1 Corinthians 5. So it's like there is a way that, like, you can harm the body of Christ.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's not that it's impervious to harm. I mean, to be embodied is to die-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, which is what Jesus did.

David: I see.

Seth: Right, but like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... I think you're, I think you're, like, sniffing at something important here.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: But what he's saying here is that, "Hey, it's impossible for Christ to, to be divided, so you shouldn't be divided."

David: Mm, mm.

Seth: "And if you were successful, you would, you wouldn't just be dividing among camps-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... you'd be splitting Christ's body in half-

David: Mm

Seth: ... which is what he died on the cross. He's already done that."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, and you don't want to be party to the people who put him on the cross. Like, you know?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, it, it ups the stakes-

David: Yeah, it does

Seth: ... of whatever's happening. You wanna hear how he ends the book?

David: Sure.

Seth: So in the first part of 1 Corinthians 15, he kind of just argues for the necessity, the theological necessity of believing in the resurrection of the body.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, this is what's gonna happen, and he does that basically all the way through verse 34-

David: Mm

Seth: ... where he says, "Some of you are teaching contrary to this, and I teach that to your shame. Hey, you can't d- deviate from this message."

David: This is the part where he says, like, "If Jesus isn't raised, all of our belief is pointless."

Seth: That's right. Yes, he says that.

David: Resur- if we don't have the hope of a resurrection-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... there's no point in being a Christian.

Seth: That's right.

David: Which, like, to our argument here-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... is a huge

David: overstatement,

Seth: [laughs]

David: or we've so underestimated the value of the bodily resurrection-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that it's not only then... Now I understand. I've, I've really only ever thought of

David: 1 Corinthians 15 and that statement-

Seth: Mm

David: ... about the necessity of the resurrection-

Seth: Mm

David: ... to be Jesus's resurrection. Like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... if Jesus isn't raised, which is what he says-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... then our, our faith is pointless.

Seth: Yes.

David: But that's because that undergirds, and he's about to talk about,

Seth: Mm.

David: it's all looped into a bodily resurrection.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so if they're... If we're not gonna be raised from the dead, why are we doing this?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I'm like, "I don't know if I've put all my eggs in that basket."

Seth: Yeah. He's like-

David: And he has

Seth: ... "There's no reason for us to risk our lives-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or anything if we're just gonna die. There's no reason for us to-

David: Keep our bodies chaste.

Seth: Right, there's, there's no, it's-

David: To treat one another with love and dignity.

Seth: Like, all that's severely undermined.

David: It's interesting to talk about the moral arguments. Like, uh, you know, I, I like listening-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to, like, apologetic-

Seth: Yes

David: ... arguments-

Seth: Yes, yes

David: ... about, well, where do we get our sense of ethics from? How do we ascertain what's right and wrong? Does it come from social Darwinism-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and the need to keep some kind of-

Seth: Yes

David: ... social contract?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Or is there an, uh, you know, an objective power behind the power good-

Seth: That we should be aspiring to

David: ... you know, like a deontology-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... ethic, you know, behind it all? And it's interesting here that you could almost extrapolate Paul's argument to say that the reason why we have ethics and right and wrong in the world-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is because we will live in this world together forever.

Seth: Yeah. There's something... Yeah, there's something very-

David: There's something interesting there

Seth: ... there's something very interesting-

David: Anyway

Seth: ... about that. And even within Paul's argument, it seems to be his thing. It's like, "Hey-

David: Deep ethical grounding

Seth: ... Jesus is coming back."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "And that means a bodily resurrection."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, "So, hey, don't, [laughs] don't do that. Do this instead." [laughs]

David: Yeah, it's like, so therefore, moral imperative.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, it's like Jesus is coming back, all bodies will be raised, therefore moral imperative.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so he's building a system of ethics-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... on the principle of resurrection.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's fascinating.

Seth: Super fascinating.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he bas-

David: You were, you were going somewhere, sorry.

Seth: So he basically argues then that's, for the necessity of the belief in a bodily resurrection.

David: Yes.

Seth: And then in the last part of the chapter, starting with chapter 35, he's just emphas-

David: Chapter 35? [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] Verse 35.

David: [laughs]

Seth: He's talking about the goodness of the resurrection.

David: Mm.

Seth: "Okay, I've convinced you that it's right, but can I teach you that it's good?"

David: Mm.

Seth: He starts with a, a question that either he heard or he was asked directly in his letter that he got from the Corinthians.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "But someone will ask, 'How are the dead raised, Paul? What kind of body do they come with?' You foolish person!" [laughs]

David: [laughs] There's that heat.

Seth: Uh, there's that heat.

David: There's that heat.

Seth: And so the que- uh... What he's saying here is like, "Okay, okay, tell me exactly how that's gonna work out."

David: Right.

Seth: "Am I gonna just be a reanimated corpse forever?"

David: Yes.

Seth: "That's disgusting."

David: Yeah, I... Uh, what about cremation?

Seth: Yeah.

David: I was spread out over an ocean.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, yeah, so how are we gonna get pieced back together, Paul?

David: Right.

Seth: Like, uh, there's something inherently disgusting-

David: Yes

Seth: ... about living in a body forever, which is what these questions are getting at.

David: That's right.

Seth: It's like-

David: Or it's like, "Man, uh, I died in a chariot crash, and my body was all mu..." Have you ever seen Beetlejuice?

Seth: That's right. No, I have not.

David: In the movie Beetlejuice-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... in the afterlife, everyone is living in the body they died in.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so you have, like, a guy, like a big, a big-

Seth: Yes

David: ... obese person.... who choked to death on a big chicken bone.

Seth: And so-

David: And so he's, like, blue, and he still-

Seth: Oh, my gosh

David: ... has his bib on, and he has a big chicken bone stuck in his throat.

Seth: Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Uh, and then you have, like, somebody who was, like, ran over by a car, and they're, like, flat with tire marks.

Seth: Oh, gosh.

David: And they, like, can, like, fit through small areas because-

Seth: Or-

David: ... they're flattened.

Seth: It's like the ghosts in Harry Potter, like, nearly had the stick.

David: Oh, nearly had the stick.

Seth: Yeah. [laughing]

David: Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, "Paul, explain this to us."

Seth: It's like, "Because that doesn't sound good to me."

David: "I don't wanna do that."

Seth: "That sounds bad to me."

David: That's right.

Seth: And it feels self-evidently untrue-

David: Right

Seth: ... uh, a resurrection of the body-

David: Yes

Seth: ... just 'cause it's self-evidently untrue, just considering how disgusting-

David: That's right

Seth: ... our bodies die.

David: They just tend toward-

Seth: Yes

David: ... yuckiness and destruction.

Seth: Um-

David: Or to, to... Before you get to the how, how it's good news-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to maybe take a less funny-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... example, and get real serious f-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... for people, like you said, some people just really hate their bodies.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, and maybe that's, you know, some self-hate. Uh, other people are just born with broken bodies.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, some people, millions and millions of people, can't walk, you know, s- things like spina bifida.

Seth: Right.

David: You know, like, like, they have bodies that, like, I don't wanna live in that body forever.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That would be actually kind of a curse-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to live in this broken, unde- undeveloped body, where I can't walk, I can't talk, I can't hear, I can't see-

Seth: Yes

David: ... forever?

Seth: Yes.

David: No, thank you.

Seth: Yes.

David: I'd rather die.

Seth: I've heard, like... I've heard that.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then I've also heard, like, it's a, it's a different kind of distortion or, like, misunderstanding of, I think, what the Bible's talking about. But they'll talk about how someone's blind or deaf, and they'll say... or, or in a wheelchair, and they'll say, "This is so much a part of who I am-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and how God's made me be, I don't think- I think I'll be blind in heaven."

David: Mm.

Seth: And they'll be like, "This has been, like, my d- this is who... Like, this is part of my identity."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "And so that's who I'll be in heaven. Like, I'll be blind forever."

David: Mm.

Seth: So it's not quite the same.

David: Right, different perspective.

Seth: But, but there is some sort of, like, disconnect between who are, who are we most fundamentally?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Are we our body? Are we something other than our body, and how do those two things come together?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, what things will be transformed, what things will stay the same?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so Paul comes in-

David: These are the questions they're asking.

Seth: Yeah, and then Paul comes in with verse, um,

Seth: 36.

David: 36.

Seth: "You foolish person." [laughing]

David: Oh, sorry. Thanks, Paul.

Seth: [laughing]

David: I'm asking some questions.

Seth: We were asking them far more sympathetically.

David: [laughing]

Seth: Paul has some people who are denying-

David: Oh, okay

Seth: ... that he's an apostle, and, uh-

David: Okay. You're not calling me foolish, necessarily-

Seth: But, um-

David: ... this time

Seth: ... and he said, "Don't you know what you sow does not come to life until it dies? And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel," a seed, "perhaps of wheat or some other kind." So he's like, "Okay-

David: Yep. Think about farming.

Seth: Think about farming. He's like, "When you plant something in the ground, we'll all die."

David: Yep.

Seth: When you plant something in the ground, you don't plant the final thing in the ground.

David: Right.

Seth: You don't plant a cedar, you plant a seed.

David: Right.

Seth: Your body is not so much a body as it is a seed-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of what's to come.

David: And it's like, when I plant a seed, I put it in the ground, what grows isn't a bigger version of the seed.

Seth: That's right.

David: It looks completely different.

Seth: Completely different.

David: But it came from the same material.

Seth: Yeah, it's like there's a continuity between those two.

David: There's a continuity.

Seth: But it is-

David: Yeah, and you can't have one without the other. [laughing]

Seth: But your body right now is not the final form of the thing-

David: Right

Seth: ... that you'll be forever.

David: Yeah, it's like, man, don't... What a silly question. Don't you guys plant stuff all the time?

Seth: Right.

David: When you plant your body in the ground, it grows up into something different.

Seth: Right, and don't you know that death isn't the end-

David: End

Seth: ... of a physical existence?

David: But the beginning of harvest season? [laughing]

Seth: But of, of something more transcendent, the seed, you could ever imagine the seed to be.

David: That's right. It's when the seed goes in the ground.

Seth: Yeah, and so here's what he says next.

David: Mm.

Seth: He says in verse 42, "And so it is with the resurrection of the dead."

David: Mm.

Seth: "So just like seeds become something totally different-

David: Right

Seth: ... and they are more glorious than they were before"

David: The resurrection of the dead is like when harvest comes.

Seth: Just like that. "What is sown is perishable, but what is raised is imperishable.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's sown in dishonor", you're right, our bodies are dishonorable in all sorts of ways, "but it will be raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, um, but it is raised in power."

David: Mm.

Seth: "It's sown a natural body, but it's raised a spiritual body."

David: A spiritual body.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Not a spirit.

Seth: Not a spirit in a body-

David: Yep, but a spiritual body.

Seth: But a spiritual body.

David: Mm.

Seth: And then he goes back to what we talked about at the very beginning.

David: Ah.

Seth: "Thus, it is written, the first man, Adam, became a living being." So God, like, breathed life into Adam, right?

David: Yep.

Seth: "But the last man, Adam, became a life-giving spirit."

David: There's a new creation.

Seth: Yes.

David: Genesis 1 is gonna happen again.

Seth: Well, it has happened again.

David: It has happened again. [laughing]

Seth: In Jesus.

David: Yes.

Seth: And Jesus is not bringing us to die-

David: Mm

Seth: ... he's giving us life.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Adam was a bo- a spiritual body that died.

David: Mm.

Seth: Jesus is a spiritual body that was raised and gives life. So if we believe in the resurrected Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... we will be resurrected with him.

David: Right. Yeah, I'm just still kind of reeling from that present reality.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Yeah, the, kind of in the same moment, my mind was blown thinking about I'm not just a shell that the Holy Spirit is living in-

Seth: Yes

David: ... we're actually this living, unified being together. In the same way, there is a resurrection that has and is progressively happening-

Seth: Yes

David: ... uh, because the, the resurrected one is living in me now.

Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

David: And he's bearing life in my body now-

Seth: Yes

David: ... uh, and, and, and into the future.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So I'm just like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... there's just so much happening there.

Seth: Yeah, he, he develops this idea.

David: Okay.

Seth: He continues to... And, and so, and I think what he's doing here, too, is, like, he's helping a dualist come to grips with this thing.

David: Thanks, Paul.

Seth: Uh, he's like, [laughing] "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust."

David: It's like-

Seth: Like, hey, you're right, like, there is something-... in Adam, there's something, like, broken-

David: Yeah

Seth: -about our bodies.

David: It tends toward dust.

Seth: Yes.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And we recognize that the second man, Jesus, is from Heaven. Like, he's part of that spiritual reality that you so want, right?

David: Mm.

Seth: That goodness. "But as was the man of the dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man [chuckles] of heaven, but so also are those who are of heaven."

David: Ah.

Seth: He's like saying, "And y- you're both of those things now."

David: Yes.

Seth: "You're in Adam, but now you are in the second Adam, Jesus Christ." He, he clarified... Uh, that's kinda confusing, but let me just read the next sentence: "Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven."

David: Mm.

Seth: Hey, we, from the very beginning, have had, like... known that we're a living being, a living body in Adam, but that has died, like your dualism would tell you. However, we've become part of a continuation of that thing that's far better. We are now being resurrected with that same body.

David: Mm.

Seth: Does that make sense? Like, does, does that journey make sense?

David: It, it does, and, and the... And it's interesting that the connection point between them, uh, is the grave.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... Adam tends-

Seth: Yes

David: ... toward dust, but it's there that the seed actually grows to maturation into the stalk.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so it's, that... There is a unity, that we are not just in Adam now.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We are Adams, humans-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in Christ-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... who came from Heaven. So we're not just dustlings.

Seth: Yes.

David: We're having- heavenlings.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, and we're both. We're not either/or or trying to get rid of one to be the other. We're both, and both of those crash into each other-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in the most unexpected way.

Seth: Which is crucifix- In death.

David: In death.

Seth: In death, yes.

David: Yeah, and it's like, okay, well, that used to be the ultimate punishment, the ultimate end, the ultimate-

Seth: Mm

David: ... demise.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's why the prophets could say, "Oh, there's the sting of death."

Seth: That's right.

David: "And that's the ultimate punishment, and now we go to the grave," and he mocks it, and he says-

Seth: Yeah, it's like-

David: ... "Oh, hey, Death, where'd your sting go?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Where'd your victory go there, Grave?"

Seth: That's right.

David: It's gone, because that actually... We've turned a grave into a farm.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And- [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

David: ... like, it's like, that's where-

Seth: Graveyards are farmland.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's where we're just gonna grow a whole bunch of glorified bodies now.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's just really cool.

Seth: And we wouldn't have that-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... go back to the very first thing we said.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: We wouldn't have any of this if some sincere Christians weren't sinning-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... a long time ago. And in response to the sin of some Christians a long time ago, we have something that's blowing our mind 2,000 years later.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Giving us the most beautiful, like, reflection on the resurrection of Jesus possible. And so I think, like, Paul ends this by, "Hey, so live the ethical lives that you should be living-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in light of these things." It still blows my mind that this is a product of, of sinful people-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and this is the grace that we get from it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, two, like, 2,000 years of people thinking about these things-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of grace. Like, it's just... Let alone salvation. Anyway, I'm just-

David: It is

Seth: ... still, like, meditating on that. [chuckles]

David: Yeah, the fact that this letter came from really bad situations-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's kind of a microcosm of the whole point he's making.

Seth: Mm.

David: There was all this death and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... sexual morality and misbelief, and all these terrible things happening, and out of that grew this awesome letter, 1 Corinthians. [chuckles]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, this awesome gospel truth.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's, like, a very, very small version of his overall point.

Seth: Yes.

David: That, like, yeah, ev- like, sometimes our bodies tend towards death, destruction, disease, grossness. Um, they might not be everything we want, but they have so much deep value that Jesus has joined himself to them, and will join himself to them forever.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, and so therefore, let's live life differently in light of that. It's beautiful.

Seth: It's really beautiful.

David: God save us from our dualism.

Seth: Or functional denial of the bodily resurrection.

David: Or functional denial of the bodily resurrection. There you go.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well, we will live forever.

Seth: We will live forever! [chuckles]

David: In bodies. [chuckles]

Seth: In bodies. [chuckles]

David: So that's the gospel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well, thank you, guys, so much for joining us, uh, on this walk through 1 Corinthians. It's been very fun. Go read it. Go read it!

Seth: Yeah.

David: Go meditate on this. I know that's exactly what I'm gonna do the next couple of weeks.

Seth: Just underline every time Paul talks about the Second Coming-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or, yeah, or the... a body.

David: I wanna-

Seth: And you'll be-

David: That's... I wanna do that.

Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]

David: I'm gonna do that. That's very good. Uh, again, Seth, thank you for everything you've put into this.

Seth: Of course.

David: Uh, Christine, thank you for everything you've put into this.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So grateful, uh, for you guys and to get to do this work with you all, and so thankful for everybody here listening, uh, for giving us a place to do this, um, and for supporting us. Uh, we're completely supported by you guys.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, so thank you for, for that.

Seth: Thank you.

David: So, uh, we had fun doing this. Are we going to 2 Corinthians next?

Seth: We will be doing 2 Corinthians eventually.

David: Okay.

Seth: I don't know if it's next.

David: Okay.

Seth: Uh, we will, we will see.

David: We will see. Okay. Well, thank you for joining us, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

Listen to the 1 Corinthians Overview: "New" Corinth, Freaky Friday, and Church Surgery podcast

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The Resurrection of the Body: Why Paul's Vision for Our Physical Future Changes Everything

Show Notes

The Bodily Resurrection as the Heart of 1 Corinthians

The Consequences of Denying the Bodily Resurrection

The Body, Sexual Ethics, and the Indwelling of God

The Church as One Body in Christ

The Goodness and Glory of the Resurrection Body

Living Now in Light of What Will Be

Related Resources

Introduction to 1 Corinthians

View our devotional on 1 Corinthians 1-2

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Listen to the 1 Corinthians 14: Understanding Spiritual Gifts podcast