Spoken Gospel podcast with a photo of David and Seth

1 John 2:28-3:24: Are You a Son of the Devil?

About This Episode

There is an ancient battle between children of God and children of Satan that stretches back to the garden of Eden. And John uses this ancient battle to encourage a community under threat. Seth and David talk about what it means to be a child of God and why being righteous and loving one another is good news for people afraid, persecuted, and unsure if they belong to God.

Listen Now Read Show Notes

Listen On

Apple Podcasts Youtube Spotify

Are You a Son of the Devil? — 1 John 2:28–3:24

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart open this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast by jumping into one of the most provocative questions in 1 John: How do you know if you belong to God or to Satan? The passage under discussion, 1 John 2:28–3:24, pushes into themes of assurance, righteousness, and identity that have been building throughout the letter. What follows is a rich exploration of what it means to be called a child of God — and what that identity looks like in the face of persecution, doubt, and the daily struggle to love well.

Confidence When Jesus Returns

The passage begins with a tender address — "little children" — which carries a double meaning. It is both a term of affection from a spiritual father to his congregation and a theological cue pointing to the reality of being born into God's family. This idea of being "born of God" is significant because it represents something new that John is describing in light of what Jesus has accomplished. While the Old Testament speaks of belonging to God's family, the language of being born of God signals a new creative act.

The stakes of this identity become clear in verse 28, where John urges his readers to abide in Jesus so that "when he appears, we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming." Throughout 1 John, the language of Jesus' "appearing" has mostly referred to the incarnation — his first coming. But here, John pivots to the future, using the Greek word parousia, the term used almost exclusively in the New Testament for the second coming of Jesus. The two options on that day are confidence or shame. That framework echoes the Old Testament vision of the day of the Lord, where people either stand firm or beg the mountains to fall on them. John's encouragement is that those who are God's children need not fear that day, because when Jesus appears, they will be made like him (1 John 3:2). The reason for confidence is not personal merit — it is that God himself will complete the transformation he started.

This future hope is not escapism. It is meant to fuel present endurance. The New Testament consistently teaches that knowing Jesus is coming again does something to believers right now. It builds confidence for life in the present, not just in the age to come. And that matters especially because John's original audience was likely facing real physical danger — not just intellectual doubts about their faith, but the threat of imprisonment, persecution, and death under forces hostile to the Gospel.

Children of God and Children of the Devil

At the heart of this passage is a stark binary: there are children of God and children of the devil. The phrase "children of the devil" might sound like something out of a fantasy novel or a horror film, but John grounds it in the most ancient conflict in Scripture — the battle between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, first announced in Genesis 3:15. This cosmic war finds its earliest human expression in the story of Cain and Abel, where a righteous son is murdered by his brother out of hatred for his obedience to God.

John is not introducing a new category. He is giving a new name to the same reality he has been describing throughout the letter. The antichrists who went out from the church, the false teachers undermining the community's faith — they are children of the devil in the same way the Pharisees were when Jesus called them that in John 8. To be a child of the devil is to stand on the wrong side of God's purposes, whether that opposition looks overtly violent or deceptively religious. The secessionists from the church are simply the latest expression of a Satanic pattern that has existed since the garden — a hatred of righteousness and an attempt to crush those who pursue it.

The word "lawlessness" in verse 4 deepens this picture dramatically. In English, "sin is lawlessness" can sound like a bland tautology — of course breaking the law is sinful. But in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint), the word anomia carries far more weight. It is used not only for human disobedience but for demonic forces, Satanic powers, and even as a title for the pagan god Belial. By the time John writes, anomia has become a word loaded with associations to the powers of darkness. So when John says "sin is lawlessness," he is not merely defining a word. He is saying that habitual sin is a demonically empowered reality — that to make a practice of sinning is to be under Satan's influence.

The Seed of God and the Practice of Righteousness

John introduces a striking metaphor to explain how transformation works in the life of a believer: God's seed is in us. This is not abstract theology. It is a picture of something organic and alive, planted by God himself, that grows over time. When someone trusts in Jesus, they do not receive an instantly mature faith. They receive a seed — and like any seed buried in soil, it takes time to sprout. A new believer might look at their life and think nothing has changed, but God's seed is already at work beneath the surface.

This is the theological reality traditionally called sanctification — the process of being made more like Jesus over time. The seed grows, and as it does, it bears fruit in the form of righteousness. The repeated phrase "everyone who" (the Greek word pas) appears seven times in this section, echoing the rhythms of creation. Just as God made all things good in seven days, he is building a new creation in his people — a new reality marked by righteousness and love rather than rebellion and hatred.

This growth is what John means when he says, "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning" (1 John 3:6). This is not a claim that believers never sin — John already addressed that in 1 John 1, where he said anyone who claims to be without sin is self-deceived. Rather, the idea is that a believer's controlling influence has changed. Before Jesus, the governing power over a person's life was the world, the flesh, and the devil. Capital-S Sin was a master that held people captive, preventing them from ever truly doing good on their own. But when Jesus appeared, he destroyed the devil's work (1 John 3:8) and broke Sin's enslaving power. Now, with God's Spirit as the new ruling presence, believers can do righteousness for the first time. Their intuitions shift. God's law is written on their hearts. The practice of righteousness is not a burden to earn favor — it is the natural fruit of a new nature.

Love as the Litmus Test

After discussing righteousness and sin in broad theological terms, John brings the conversation to ground level: "Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10). All the cosmic language about God's seed, Satan's influence, and the children of the devil comes down to something profoundly concrete — how you treat other people.

John uses Cain and Abel as the archetypal illustration. Cain hated his brother because Abel's deeds were righteous, and that hatred led to the first murder in Scripture. The pattern repeats throughout history: those who pursue God's ways are hated by those who do not. But John flips the script by pointing to Jesus as the "anti-Cain." The Greek word for "he" in verse 16 — "by this we know love, that he laid down his life for us" — is ekeinos, which phonetically echoes the name Cain. Where Cain brought death into the world by killing his righteous brother, Jesus brought life into the world by dying for his unrighteous enemies. Where Cain's story is one of hatred leading to murder, Jesus' story is one of love leading to sacrifice.

This reframes what it means to love in the context of persecution. Loving your brother does not only mean loving fellow believers who are easy to love. In the Cain and Abel paradigm, the righteous one loves even the brother who hates him. This is what Jesus modeled — dying for those who put him on the cross. The persecuted have an opportunity the persecutors never have: to display the self-giving love of Jesus by loving those who would destroy them. John says this love — sacrificial, enemy-embracing, generous — is how "we know that we have passed out of death and into life" (1 John 3:14).

John then makes it impossibly practical in verse 17: if you see someone in material need and you have the means to help but refuse, how can the love of God be in you? Love is not merely a feeling or a theological concept. It is action — giving your resources, your time, your comfort for the sake of another.

When Your Heart Condemns You

One of the most pastorally rich moments in the passage comes in verses 19–20: "By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." This is not a blanket reassurance that guilt does not matter. It is a reminder that when believers feel the sting of their own lack of generosity or love, they can look to a God who is more generous than they could ever be. God knows every deficiency in our hearts, and yet he has already shown his generosity toward us through Jesus. The proper response to a condemning heart is not to wallow in guilt or to frantically do good works to earn favor. It is to look at God's greater generosity and let it propel us toward love.

This is where John's audience becomes critically important. He is not writing to people who are trying to earn their way into God's family by performing acts of charity. He is writing to believers who are beaten down by persecution, who wonder whether they can endure, who need someone to remind them that their changed lives are proof that God's seed is growing in them. John's message to them is tender and direct: Have you been generous? Have you loved your enemies? Have you prayed for your persecutors? Then you are a child of God — because children of the devil do not act that way.

Confidence to Stand Before God

The passage closes with a breathtaking invitation to confidence. John writes, "If our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God" (1 John 3:21). He then summarizes the whole of the law and the prophets in one command: "Believe in the name of his Son, Jesus, and love one another, just as he commanded us" (1 John 3:23). The assurance John offers is not rooted in perfection but in identity. If you trust Jesus and you love others, you are abiding in God — and God is abiding in you.

This challenges a deeply ingrained instinct in many believers — the reflex to always identify primarily as a sinner in need of forgiveness. While repentance is essential, John is pushing his readers to see themselves as something more: sons and daughters of God, with new natures and new capacities for righteousness. Mature faith is not only about confessing sin, though confession remains vital. It is also about recognizing the fruit that God's Spirit is producing and allowing that recognition to build confidence rather than guilt. John invites believers to look at the ways Jesus is changing them — less anger, more generosity, deeper love — and to say, without pride but with genuine joy, "God's seed is bearing fruit in me." That is not arrogance. That is the Gospel doing what the Gospel does.

Transcript

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, Seth Stewart, how are you, my friend?

Seth: Ready to slay.

David: Ready to slay? [laughs]

Seth: Right.

David: What are you slaying?

Seth: Dragons.

David: Slay-

Seth: Antichrist. No.

David: You're just slaying, slaying life.

Seth: Slaying life, slaying this wardrobe. Just slaying. [laughs]

David: Slaying wardrobe? [laughs]

Seth: Well, you just ... My ... I look good today.

David: Oh, you just, you're just slaying.

Seth: I just slaying.

David: Is that, is that, is that, uh, is that what the kids say these days?

Seth: I think so. I mean, as a 30-year-old man, I am very up on what the kids say.

David: So when you go out and you're looking good, you're slaying.

Seth: I'm slaying.

David: We are-

Seth: So cool right now

David: ... we are really cool.

Seth: I did see that a top podcast on Apple has the word slay in it.

David: Oh.

Seth: So I think, I think we're, I think I'm still cool.

David: You're so cool.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You s- you s- slay, slay boy.

Seth: Just like-

David: I don't know

Seth: ... Cain slayed Abel.

David: Hey, there we go. Now we're in the text.

Seth: Now we're in the text.

David: So we are still in 1 John.

Seth: Still in 1 John.

David: And we are moving into chapter three, and, um, we're gonna be talking about how do you know if you belong to God or Satan?

Seth: Yep. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: That's re- really, really simple. Um, and the first two, last two verses of chapter two kinda set up all the main themes that we're gonna talk about in John 3.

David: Okay.

Seth: Um, and here's what it says, "And now little children, abide in him," Jesus, "so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him at his coming." So again, we already have this idea of coming, like Jesus coming again.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We have the idea of confidence and assurance when Jesus comes.

David: Yep.

Seth: Now, next verse. "Now if you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him."

David: Mm.

Seth: Some important words here is the word righteousness. Outside of this section of 1 John, righteousness is not talked about.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: And the idea of being born of God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's a super interesting phrasing, which I don't believe is ever used of Israel in all the Old Testament. I was reading one commentator, there's this idea about being in God's family-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... throughout the Old Testament, but the idea of being born of God-

David: Interesting

Seth: ... is a new type of thing John is describing because of Jesus.

David: Huh.

Seth: So we have something new happening here, uh, a new creative thing happening, um, in which we are trying to get confidence as Jesus returns.

David: Wow. And, like, it's also interesting, we've talked about how John just loves this congregation.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so when I first read th- this passage, you know, verse 28-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... it's, he says, "Children."

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: You know, I was like-

Seth: Yep

David: ... oh, another technia or whatever, you know, the Greek word is.

Seth: Familiar old thing.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, but it's also, like, a double entendre in a sense where it's like, children.

Seth: Yes.

David: Not my, just my spiritual children.

Seth: Right.

David: Children of God.

Seth: Children of God.

David: It's cuing us into that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, that's interesting.

Seth: And one thing I wanted to flag here, we've talked a couple different times about, through this podcast series, about the idea of assurance of salvation.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: How do I know if I'm saved?

David: Right.

Seth: And I think we've talked about it kind of on a, a fairly psychological level. How do I know if I'm saved when people tell me things about my Christian faith that I can't answer?

David: Mm.

Seth: When somebody gives me an objection to the resurrection, how do I know I'm okay in my faith?

David: Mm.

Seth: I think that's kind of the terms we've set it on. I also wanted to add, like, there's probably an intensity here that we haven't, like, flagged. We did a little bit. We talked about Nero, like... [laughs]

David: Oh, right. Yeah, all his-

Seth: And the craziness

David: ... crazy persecution.

Seth: So I was, I was kinda thinking if the, we frame the question not how do I know I'm saved-

David: Right

Seth: ... in kind of a-

David: Psychological way

Seth: ... psychological way, like, well, what if, if I'm killed by somebody tomorrow for my faith-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... how do I know I'm gonna be in heaven?

David: Right.

Seth: If I'm murdered in my sleep, will I be with God?

David: Right.

Seth: Like, I felt like that did something for me as I was reading this. Like, I think John, he kinda amps up his language a little bit here.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: He starts referring to Cain and murderers and-

David: Right

Seth: ... I'm wondering if, like, it would be helpful for us as we're, as, as our audience, as we are listening to up the stakes a little bit.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's like if we die tomorrow, how do we know we'll be with God?

David: Right.

Seth: If we died in the next second, what kind of assurance could we have-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that we would be in God's family?

David: 'Cause you're saying some of John's original audience might be facing some of these, um-

Seth: Right

David: ... threats against their lives.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Either by these antichrists or other external persecutive forces.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: So there's, like, an immediacy and an urgency-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to their need for confidence and assurance. 'Cause I think I was confused. Like, why does he keep harping on assurance and confidence? Like, hasn't he solved that issue for them?

David: Oh, sure.

Seth: If it's a psychological issue, but it's like-

David: Yeah. I mean, maybe. I also don't wanna belittle the psychological-

Seth: Right

David: ... where it's like that question plagues Christians-

Seth: It does

David: ... their whole lives. You know, how do I know I'm actually saved? I just don't feel saved. I don't-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... feel like a Christian. So, like, I definitely don't wanna belittle that.

Seth: No.

David: Um-

Seth: What I wanna do is elevate.

David: Also up the stakes. Yeah.

Seth: Right, because I, I mean, our podcast is increasingly listened to around the world in places that are persecuted.

David: That's right.

Seth: So it's like there are people right now listening-

David: Mm-hmm... who might actually be facing physical persecution.

Seth: Right. And so how do you know if you're sent to prison tomorrow, you'll make it-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... through that sentence?

David: Right.

Seth: John is talking to you.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I wanted to frame that-

David: That's good

Seth: ... as we c- keep going forward.

David: Okay.

Seth: But for now, children of God.

David: Children of God. Uh, continue in him so when he appears, we may be confident and unashamed before his coming. So he's, he's talking, he's talked a lot about the, the one that we've known from the beginning has appeared. He's talked about the appearance of Jesus a lot lately.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, but so far in John's, on John, in John's letter, for the most part, it's been about the incarnation, Jesus' earthly ministry in the past.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Now he's talking about when he appears in the future.

Seth:Yeah

David: In the coming day of the Lord when Jesus returns, he's gonna come, and there's two options whenever he comes for how we will feel and respond to him when he comes. We'll either be confident, which is, like, what he's been aiming at-

Seth: Mm

David: ... or we'll be asha- ashamed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Or we'll shrink.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, and, like, those are our... Those are... And those have really always been the options if you read about the day of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, you either are gonna stand, or you're gonna ask the mountains to fall on top of you so you can hide. [laughs] Like, those are your two options. And so it's like I, I think it's also a, a way to elevate the stakes is to think about, like, imagine perfect God in all his might coming, being seen fully. He knows your ins and outs, and you actually see him seeing you-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... as completely imperfect. And you see him as fully perfect, and he knows you, and he looks at you. How will you feel in that moment?

Seth: Yes.

David: How can you feel confident before a God like that? How can you have... Isn't... Wouldn't that be, like, the wrong emotion to have, you know? How do you but shrink?

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: How do you but feel ashamed?

Seth: Yes.

David: And John is saying, "If you're God's child, that day can be a day of confidence for you." And it's like if you can bank and, like, understand in what the gospel has done for you in such a way that you know that when Jesus appears, you'll stand before him in confidence, you're on the right footing.

Seth: Yes.

David: And, like, nothing else is gonna shake you.

Seth: It's... Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's exactly right, and then he tells us in verse 29 how we know we're God's child. "If you know that he is righteous, you may, ah, be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him." John does something interesting that I'm a little uncomfort- that I'm c- often uncomfortable with-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is he links our assurance of salvation, our confidence in our salvation, our confidence at Christ coming to our righteousness-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to our obedience to God's commands, to our, like, to walking and loving our brother as he'll c- continue to develop.

David: Right.

Seth: And I'm often get kind of uncomfortable by that idea because I'm so used to thinking of, like, our works or our righteousness as something that Jesus has done and atoned for on the cross, and he's even talked about it-

David: Yes

Seth: ... already. But to think about our works, our righteousness, our obedience as an assurance-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is different, and it, it's taken me a second to, like, make that shift in my mind.

David: Yeah. Well, and it's gotta be a both and. I mean, he even does the both and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in, in, in, in this letter, that he, he wants every weapon we can wield against our unconfidence, [laughs] you know-

Seth: Yes

David: ... our lack of confidence. Um, and yeah, I think, one is if we do sin, we have an advocate before the Father, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So, like, what you do can't condemn you.

Seth: Yep.

David: But then there's this other side where it's like, yeah, but don't forget, when you are acting righteously in places that you used to be unrighteous, when you are loving your brother and loving people who don't love you in ways that the world around you fails to, let that also-

Seth: Yes

David: ... build confidence in you.

Seth: Because the people who are against you are living differently.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So... And this is gets to the central conceit of these passages-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is that there are two types of people in the world.

David: Mm. Those who like Neil Diamond and those who don't.

Seth: [laughs] Is that a quote from something?

David: From Saving Silverman.

Seth: [laughs]

David: This old terrible comedy. Anyway, carry on. Sorry.

Seth: Uh, no, there's those that are the children of God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... like we are set up, and those that are the children of the devil.

David: Right.

Seth: The children of God act one way. The children of the devil act another way.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The children of God are righteous. The children of the devil are unrighteous.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And a really clear way to give yourself confidence is to know that you act righteously.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Um, and I don't best know how to develop that idea except just going through the text line upon line, unless you have something you wanna add to that.

David: Um, I mean, there... I mean, we could, we could do that. I... Yeah, let's do that. I think there's... We could talk about it more meta, but I think going through line by line might be, might, might be best. Um, it's interesting, though, because he kind of does this parenthetical in verses one to three of chapter three, uh, where he's, like, talking about how will you know, how will you be confident, are you ashamed, or are you confident, and then he talks about the final day of the Lord. Then he comes back to-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... like, knowing who you are based on what you do, you know, in, in verse four.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: So anyway, um-

Seth: Can I ask you this question?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Do you think that shame at his coming-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... is his final day of the Lord, or is it, as we talked about last week, 1870, when there was a day of the Lord-

David: Mm

Seth: ... against Jerusalem and the temple, and it was ransacked, and it was destroyed? And he's talking about, like, this upcoming-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... moment of persecution that will be really, really intense, and they're gonna have this moment where they're like, "Am I... Are we okay? Is God..."

David: Right.

Seth: "Like, God's destroyed his temple. Like, we're used to the temple being where God did business with the world-

David: Right

Seth: ... and now it's not." Do you think it's both? Do you think it's only one? I don't know if that changes our understanding of the text a ton, but I-

David: Yeah, I, I, I, I have trouble believing it's, it's the destruction of the temple or both because of chapter three, verse two. Uh, he says that, "We are God's children now-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but what we will be has not yet made, been made known to us, but we know that when Christ appears-"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Now, that's not when the Antichrist does his thing-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, and the temple's destroyed. Uh, "When Christ appears," and then this is the real problem, "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." That did not happen in 1870.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um, that did not happen when the temple was destroyed. We did not see Jesus and be transformed into his, in, like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... be transformed into his likeness. That didn't happen, and so that's why I think he is talking about a future to the Lord. It's also the only time that John uses the Greek word parousia-

Seth: Coming

David: Uh, which is, uh, the New Testament word that's almost exclusively used-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... for the second coming of Jesus.

Seth: Interesting.

David: Um, so that's my answer.

Seth: That's interesting. And I was, I was like, I wanted to flag that 'cause I thought it was interesting and the, the theme of persecution we've been playing with-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the immediacy that John seems to have in this whole section. Uh, but I think the important thing is right. I think you're right. There is something, a piece of confidence that comes from being made like God.

David: Yes.

Seth: Being righteous like God, being purified like God is pure, which he, which he's getting at.

David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's also, um, a part of the Christian's confidence that the New Testament picks up constantly, and really it's a theme from the Old Testament too, but it's the idea that future hope is, like, salvific. It's, it's saving. It's confidence-building. Like, knowing and believing that God is coming again does something to us. It doesn't make us s- uh, what's the, what's the, what's the phrase? Like, uh, our, our... We're so full of heaven that we're of no earthly good or whatever-

Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... [laughs] that saying is. That's not what it does. It actually makes us be able to live on this earth, to be heavenly-minded-

Seth: Right

David: ... to know that heaven is coming.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so that's what he's, he, I think he's getting at here, is that you can have confidence, uh, in your Christian life right now. Why? Because Christ is coming. And it's like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... how can I... How does something that hasn't happened yet-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... gonna give me confidence now? And it's like, that's not-

Seth: Because we know-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when He appears-

David: Right

Seth: ... we'll be like Him and we shall see Him as He is.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And so again, he's going back to, like, how do you know right now in this moment that you'll be confi- that you can be confident on that day? Well, if you practice righteousness.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So know that, and then know on that day, when... If you're practicing righteousness now-

David: Right

Seth: ... you will be fully righteous when He returns.

David: Right.

Seth: You will be like Him. You'll see Him as He is.

David: Yes.

Seth: And the way that He is light and He is purity, He will make you like light and you pure.

David: Exactly. I, I'm like, okay, 'cause let, let's go back to that, that, that imaginary space I wanted people to get their heads in-

Seth: Wow

David: ... where this holy, perfect God, Jesus, comes back to Earth and we stand before Him. Will we be confident or will we be ashamed, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, how can you be ashamed if He makes you exactly like Him? The, the reason-

Seth: Right

David: ... you'll be confident before Him is that you will be like Him. You're not gonna stand before Him on your own merits.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You're not gonna stand before Him with your own righteousness.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's going to give you His righteousness when you see Him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so you will not be ashamed on that day because you will look just like Him.

Seth: And if you are already called children of God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... how will He not also make you like His child, Jesus?

David: That's right.

Seth: Like, there's no sense in which you need to be un-af- a- afraid of that day, of the day of persecution, the day of death, the final day-

David: That's right

Seth: ... because you are already a child of God, and you will become like Jesus, the final child of God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... on that day as well.

David: Yes. So that, that, th- let's go ahead and talk about something then because-

Seth: Okay

David: ... and then we can, then we can jump to-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... let's finish talking about being children of God-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and then we can talk about being children of the devil. Uh, because what, what we're talking about here is the theological term sanctification, right? That-

Seth: Being made more like Jesus bit by bit over time.

David: That's right. Becoming more and more like Jesus. And so, uh, John is gonna say in this passage that God's seed is in us, right? He-

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We're, we're... Yeah.

David: His-

Seth: Like, in the really physical, like, Abrahamic-

David: In the really physical-

Seth: ... sense.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, yeah.

David: Yeah. He has impregnated us, in a sense-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... with Himself, and that seed, like it does in soil-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... it grows.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it grows and it grows and it grows, and it takes a long... It takes time to grow, you know? [laughs] Like, people are like, "Why?" Like, here, here's a great question for the people struggling with psychological questions like, "How can I know I'm saved?"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Is it's like y- you think whenever you become a Christian, you magically have a full Christian tree in your body, you know?

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: It's like, that's not what happens.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You get a seed, and that seed is buried under soil. You don't even see it sprout right away, and you're like, "I guess nothing changed."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, no, God's seed is in you now-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and it will start growing. And so it's like, that's what's gonna happen. It's gonna grow. You're gonna start being righteous. You're gonna start loving your brother as Jesus loved us.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You're gonna start doing these things.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's necessary because God's seed is growing in you, and then that tree, that seed comes to fruition, you know, when the final rain shower of Jesus' presence comes down on Earth-

Seth: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, like-

David: ... and we become what the seed was intended to be.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We've, we are the full tree at that moment. You will not be the full tree until that moment, but it's gonna start gr-

Seth: Growing

David: ... sprouting and growing, and you should have some of those early sprouting, seedling evidence of what the final tree will be. Will you be a perfect Christian? No. Should you start to have some of those sprouts that indicate that the future tree is coming? Yes.

Seth: There's other clues in this text that, that what you're talking about is so, so important.

David: Mm.

Seth: So we're called the seed of God. We're called children of God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We're called born of God, and there's this phrase here called... It, it's just everyone who. Pasa.

David: Oh, pasa, yeah.

Seth: Pasa. That's all it is. But it, it's used seven times in this little section-

David: Mm. Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to refer to the new work of creation God is doing in His people. And, like, there is a... What, what do, what does His new creation do? It doesn't sin. It practices righteousness. It says no to the things of the devil. It's, it's a hint that God is building and renewing and creating in us a new reality that will one day be finished.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Just like in creation-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... there was seven days of creation, and it was good on the last day. There's just everyone who practices righteousness-

David: Right

Seth: ... says no to sin will one day-

David: Some of those everyone whos are about bad things.

Seth: They are about bad things.

David: Okay.

Seth: But He is doing it in opposition to the everyone who-

David: Okay

Seth: ... does good things, right? Like, there's, like, there's everyone who does this, but there's all these other people who make a practice of sinning. That's not who we are.

David: Yeah. It's also interesting we're talking about you're either one type of person or the other.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's either everyone or everyone.

Seth: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: You know, it's either everyone of the new creation who has God's seed and are God's children and will bear fruit and will be like Jesus when he returns, or there's everyone else who is the seed of the devil and is going to bear right- uh, or destruction-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... unrighteousness, lawlessness.

Seth: Yeah, and it's really interesting. Like so we keep, we keep hinting at the idea that there's children of God, seed of God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and then the other family, and it... We're lit- literally children of the devil is the other phrase used-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... by John here. Um.

David: It's really interesting to... Like and it... I don't know if it sounds like... I think it either sounds so fantastic, and I mean that in like a genre term-

Seth: Like-

David: ... like fantasy.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Or so, um, modern day Exorcist movie-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... that it's hard to relate to. The phrase-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... children of the devil, it's like-

Seth: Right

David: ... okay, are we talking about like the new Annabelle movie?

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: Or are we talking about like Lord of the Rings, the son of the devil, and like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... it's so strange.

Seth: I think-

David: How can you describe it in a way that makes me as a 21st century person go like, "Oh, a child of the devil. That makes sense"?

Seth: I think it, the... I think John does a good job of grounding it for us.

David: Okay. Okay.

Seth: And I think it's because, again, like and it's an a, an ancient, eternal battle-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... John is describing here-

David: Yes

Seth: ... between the seed of God, Genesis 3:16. There's gonna be someone who comes who's gonna crush the head of the devil, of the serpent, and there's the seed of the serpent that began in Cain that killed Abel.

David: Mm.

Seth: You have this ancient battle where you have these two representative people, someone who's born of God, who loves God, who does righteousness, and somebody who hates that person because of their righteousness.

David: Right.

Seth: And the ancient story is that the seed of the devil, the person who hates righteousness, kills the other one.

David: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Seth: That's the ancient story, and that's prototypical. Like that happens-

David: Right

Seth: ... in Adam, in Cain and Abel, but it's just the history of humanity.

David: Right.

Seth: Like whenever there are people who do good and follow God's laws, there are those who wanna crush them because they hate them for it. And like that itself is what it means to be a child of the devil.

David: Mm.

Seth: An antichrist is to be a child of the devil. It's to be against God's plans and against God's savior-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and against God's people. And like that's all it means. It's like I think we can build a, a child of the devil, but like Jesus calls the, the Pharisees-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the chi- children of the devil-

David: Right, in John 8

Seth: ... in John 8.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because they are putting burdens on people with God's law that were-

David: Mm

Seth: ... outside of what God intended.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like there's ways to be against God's people that are actually fairly religious looking as well. So I don't... Does that help? Have I done what you wanted me to do there?

David: Yeah, I think that does help. Um, so what you're saying is to be a son of the devil is to be in this great conflict that's been happening from the beginning where we are against like the plans of God or the, the world God's trying to build. Uh, it means we're on the-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... wrong side of the battle.

Seth: Kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: It's like, I mean, we've already have the, the, the, the categories of Christ and antichrist.

David: Tot- totally.

Seth: So this is just a new way to talk about the same reality.

David: I see.

Seth: You know?

David: So it's like, i- it's kind of like a way to like go like, uh, we've talked about you, you're either in Christ or you're an antichrist kind of thing.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that's like happening in your own backyard, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like now let me show you this cosmic thing-

Seth: Yes

David: ... where it's like it's God and Satan, and it's this big story, and it's the same old thing. Y- you know, it's like the, the, the, the secessionists from your church, the antichrists who have gone out from you, are nothing more than another form of those who have allowed the Satanic influence to pit them against God and his children.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: I think, I... It's, yeah, the children of the devil are that. Exactly right.

David: Yeah. Um, there's something interesting. So there, there's this really strange verse, uh, that doesn't quite come across as strange in verse four. Uh, it, it, it kind of... Rather than it coming across as strange, it come, it comes across as a boring sentence.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, everyone who sins breaks the law. In fact, sin is lawlessness. It's like duh.

Seth: That makes sense.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right.

David: It's like in English it sounds really boring or like why did you need to tell me that? Of course sinning is breaking the law. Of... Then of course that means that sin is not having the law.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, and in fact, those two words are the same.

Seth: In Greek-

David: Law and lawlessness are the same

Seth: Oh, the word, uh, the practice of sinning is lawlessness? Or sorry, the word sin there means law?

David: No, the, the word law and lawlessness in the NIV or the word... Sorry, I gotta pull it up in the E... What's it, what is it, verse four in the EI- in the ESV?

Seth: It says, "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... also practices lawlessness."

David: Okay, got it.

Seth: Sin is lawlessness.

David: Right. So poieō is the practice part, so I'm not talking about that word.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: I'm talking about there's everyone who, who hamartias, which is everyone who sins.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: Uh, then that mean, then they, uh, hamartia is they lawless.

Seth: They are. Yeah.

David: They, they lawless.

Seth: They lawless.

David: They... It's poieō, uh-

Seth: Practice lawlessness

David: ... law- yeah, they, they do lawlessness.

Seth: Interesting.

David: And, and then he says, "In fact, hamartia is hamartia."

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: And you know, yeah, yeah, sin is lawlessness.

Seth: Yeah. They're the same thing.

David: Uh, and it's like the... But it kinda gets lost in English because we don't have this long history-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... that the Jewish people have had with this word, uh, uh, an- an- anomia, which is against the law.

Seth: The word lawless.

David: Yeah, 'cause-

Seth: Anomia, yeah

David: ... yeah, a- a- anomia is like against the law, but that's, that's like a very wooden translation.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Kind of in a, in a sense it would kind of be like, uh, butterfly is a flying stick of butter.

Seth: Right. Right, right, right.

David: You know, uh, that's just taking the parts of the word and saying like, "Oh, it must mean against the law."

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause the prefix against is in there. The word law is in there. Must be it. And they actually have... There's this theologian, de la Poterie. [laughs] French theologian.

Seth: So French.

David: And, uh, he argues, uh, that, um, the Greek interpretation, or sorry, the Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint, um, it translates, um, like sinUh, the word sin that shows up in the Bible a lot of times as anomia.

Seth: Okay.

David: But it also will end up translating, like demonic forces and the powers behind the powers-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... and the work of Satan also as anomia.

Seth: Interesting.

David: But then even twice in the Old Testament, it ends up translating the god Belial, like the pagan false god, Belial. Instead of giving him that name or calling him false god or-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... anything like that, it calls him anomia.

Seth: Capital A Anomia kind of thing.

David: Yeah, it's like he is lawlessness.

Seth: Interesting.

David: And like the powers of lawlessness and, and then exclusively, except for like one in the New Testament when, when this word is used, it's talking about Satanic forces, and a lot of times it's talking about the last days.

Seth: Interesting.

David: So this word for the Jewish mind has become like common parlance to talk about Satanic powers.

Seth: Interesting.

David: And so what he's saying here is much different than, "If you sin, you broke the law." That's, which is just like almost pointless to say.

Seth: Right, right, right, right.

David: What he's saying is, "If you make a practice of sinning, you are Satan. You are of Satan."

Seth: Interesting.

David: That is a demonically empowered thing that you are doing. In fact, sin is Satanic.

Seth: Right.

David: And that's a bigger thing that he's saying there.

Seth: Yeah. He continues to develop that theme. My... When I read that sentence, I went in a slightly different direction, but got to the same place.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness. And so when I think of sin, I think of like breaking a command-

David: Right

Seth: ... like you've said.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But lawlessness is like there are no commands.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like I define my commands. I do what I want, and God isn't gonna tell me what I want, which is actually what Satan tempted with Adam and Eve-

David: Right

Seth: ... in the first place.

David: Yes. [laughs]

Seth: God didn't say that. Do whatever you want and you can know good and evil for yourself.

David: Right.

Seth: You can define the commands all on your own. You can define good and evil for yourself. So lawlessness was the first temptation.

David: [laughs] Yeah, right.

Seth: It was, it was what the devil, the snake did in the garden.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: Like there's been a battle between the children of God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the children of the devil, and their relationship to the law-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to God's commands that have been existing since the beginning of time.

David: Which is what he gets at in verse eight, right? He, he talks about that the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

Seth: Yes, that's exactly right.

David: What do you, what do you mean he's been sinning from the beginning? I mean, he's been leading you into lawlessness.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's been leading you to oppose God, to break His commands, to not follow what He said. He's been doing that since day one-

Seth: Right

David: ... or day eight.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

David: [laughs] And so, um, although, like this is... Can, get... Can, can you indulge me for 90 seconds on a-

Seth: Of course

David: ... weird theological tangent?

Seth: Of course.

David: I'm just thinking here. In a sense, like I think you have to go with the Jewish understanding of anomia-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... as the Satanic power. Otherwise, 1 John, what, what John's saying here in 1 John 3:4 and what Paul develops in Romans 7 kind of clash, 'cause Paul goes to great lengths to make sure we understand that sin, that, that we were breaking the law without sin, or like we were sinning without breaking the law, and that breaking the law isn't the same thing as sin, but it brings alive sin. Anyway, I don't wanna get into it.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: I'm trying to do this as quick as possible.

Seth: Yeah.

David: My point is that it's like I think that, I think Poulterri is right [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah

David: ... in that, like-

Seth: To link sin to demonic powers

David: ... to, to demonic powers-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is, is, is his point here.

Seth: Well, and even like, um, what is God... So Cain and Abel get brought up, so I think-

David: Yes

Seth: ... it's super interesting. You have like sinning from the beginning.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So you have this lawless figure from the beginning say, "Reject God's commands. Do what you want."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And the very next story in our scriptures is the story of Cain and Abel-

David: Right

Seth: ... where you have a righteous son, Abel-

David: Right

Seth: ... being hated by his brother, and John says, "Because he saw that his deeds were righteous-"

David: Mm

Seth: ... and didn't... Wanted law, preferred lawlessness-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and killed him. So you have these r- ancient connections to this theme, and then what does God tell Cain? "Sin is crouching at the door-

David: Yeah, it-

Seth: ... and his desire is to have you."

David: It wants you.

Seth: Right. And so like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the w- the first mentions of sin and lawlessness have been like personified as like this creeping animal, this serpent, this snake-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... since the beginning of the Bible. John is just doing the work of a good Bible reader-

David: Right

Seth: ... in bringing all this up to us, again, in a new context when you're being persecuted and whatever else is happening.

David: Okay. Let me lay out what we've said, and then I need to ask a question.

Seth: Okay.

David: 'Cause we've said if you're a Christian and you want confidence, you need to know that God has planted a seed in you that will grow to completion on the day that Jesus returns.

Seth: You are a child of God.

David: You're a child of God. That's where your confidence lies.

Seth: God's family.

David: If you're a child of the devil, there is this Satanic power that wants you and is pursuing you, and he is overtaking you, and in fact, he's your father.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You're either a son of God or a son of the devil. Um, what is John doing here with the larger, his larger goals in the, in the letter, right? His larger goal is to like root out the antichrists' heresies and to, uh, separate those who are true Christian believers from those who have gone out from them who aren't. Like i- is the, is this whole thing like, "I want you to know that the antichrists that are, are, that have gone out from you are sons of the devil." Like he's just another nail in the coffin. While at the same time shoring up their confidence by telling them they're children of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I mean, I mean, it can definitely be as simple as that.

Seth: Right.

David: Do you think that's what he's doing?

Seth: What's the other option?

David: I don't know.

Seth: I mean, I, I think that is the main function of what he's doing.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I mean, verse 10, "By this it is evident who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil."

David: Mm.

Seth: "Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." He's like, what he's doing is he's saying, "Maybe it's confusing who's an antichrist and who's not. Here's a s-

David: Oh

Seth: ... here's a simple, simple litmus test. Maybe you're-... feeling unsure that if you died tomorrow, you would be with God and that you're actually part of His family. Yes. But also, how do you know that they're false teachers at all?

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: It all boils down to, like, how do we know anybody is on anybody's side? Like, that's kind of like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... another way to say it. How do we know thousands of years separated from the Adam and Eve story-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... who's on which side? Who's-

David: Like Cain or Abel.

Seth: Yes. Like, how do we know that?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he boils it down to really simply what we kinda hinted at the beginning about ri- doing righteousness, loving our brother or not.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Being lawless or being righteous, those are our two options.

David: Right, and that's because i- we will do righteousness and be just, as he says here, too, as evidence and almost necessitated, not almost, absolutely necessitated by the fact that God's seed is in us.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That's the stuff that it grows.

Seth: Yep.

David: And then we know that we have Satan's seed in us if we're doing unrighteousness and acting unjustly.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, I get that. I, I think I'm coming back around to the quandary you brought up at the beginning of the episode, which is like, it sounds like w- w- like my works are what's justifying me, or my works-

Seth: Yes, yes

David: ... are what's bringing me confidence, and I'm having to remind myself of everything else John has said in his letter that tells me that, "Look, if you're trying to be justified your works, you won't be because you also keep sinning-

Seth: Right

David: ... and you need the blood of Christ, and you need to confess."

Seth: Well, I think you're asking the right questions.

David: Okay, good [laughs] because-

Seth: Because verse five and six, "You know that He," Jesus, "appeared," for the first time-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... "in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin."

David: Yeah.

Seth: He said something like this already. "Now, no one who abides in Him keeps on sinning."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "No one who keeps on sin- sinning has either seen Him or known Him." N- now, why this is confusing is because just a few verses before, he has said kind of the opposite thing, right?

David: Right.

Seth: Where he says, "Anyone who claims to not have sin-

David: Right

Seth: ... the truth of God is not in him." So he's, he's developing his argument-

David: Oh

Seth: ... using the same words and getting at the exact conflict we're feeling. So what do works do again? Do they save me? Do they not?

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Do they assure me of sal... Like, in what way do they assure me of my salvation?

David: Right.

Seth: In what way should I be sinful, and what way should I not be sinful?

David: [laughs]

Seth: Uh, like, all that's live, and he's actually answering it right now.

David: Okay.

Seth: So I think here's what's happening.

David: Okay.

Seth: Verse five, "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin."

David: Okay.

Seth: He's already said this once before. Jesus Christ is our propitiation-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who ta- takes away our sins. But I think he's talking about taking away our sins in two different senses.

David: Mm.

Seth: He takes away our sins as an atoning sacrifice-

David: Yes

Seth: ... making us pure before God, and he's talking about taking our sins away in the seed-like form that you're talking about.

David: Yes.

Seth: He's taking away our propensity to do evil. He's taking out of us the works of the devil-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... so that we can do the works of the righteousness, o- of the righteous- of righteousness.

David: Right, right. I mean, that's, in verse eight, that's why Jesus showed up.

Seth: Yep.

David: The reason the Son of Go- I'm quoting here, "The reason the Son of God appeared," which is the same word he used to take away sin, appeared, "was to destroy the devil's work."

Seth: Yeah, to take away sins and destroy the devil's work in this place, in this section of text, are synonymous. J- Jesus has come to take the works of the devil out of us-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... so that we can be righteous and so that we can know who is of God and who is not.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: That's why righteousness is u- unique in its emphasis here because, like, if God has taken the works of the devil out of you, what happens now? Well, you do right.

David: Right.

Seth: You little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous as He is righteous.

David: Right, because His seed is in you. He's your daddy.

Seth: He's your d- He's our dad.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Whoever makes a practice of sinning-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is of the devil. Like, we have new nature. We have new hearts given to us by His Spirit. Something new has happened to-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... we are new creations.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, so let me put some theological skin on what you've just said 'cause I think this is worth the explanation because of most people's m- m- conceptions of what is sin and, uh, and, and Poulter, he, like, even brings us up at what John is driving at here, is that we th- when we hear the word sin, we think of usually an external-

Seth: Uh, breaking a rule

David: ... yeah, but an evil action.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We don't think of it as an indwelling power.

Seth: Ah.

David: Right? Uh, but there are two things that we need to have, that we need to understand here as we talk about being God's children or being Satan's children. God's children stop sinning mo- more and more as the seed grows in them-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it overtakes their lives.

Seth: It's really important that we nail it, practice of sinning-

David: The practice of sinning

Seth: ... practice of righteousness.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, these are continued patterns-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... over time, not if you sin once, you're obviously not God's child.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, but more than that, he's gonna talk about how because you've received the Spirit-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... you have the controlling influence of God in you, right? That's what happens to a Christian, is you have a new controlling influence. It used to be the world, the flesh, and the devil, right? It used to be a satanic-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... influence that governed your life. Uh, and so to be a child of Satan means not only that you do evil things, that you break laws, that you sin, right, but it's that you're controlled by sin. That S- capital S sin-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is a power that Satan wields over you-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that you cannot ever, ever, ever, ever, by no means ever break free from on your own. But when Christ appeared, He conquered the devil and broke S- capital S sin's power-

Seth: Right

David: ... over us, which restrained us from ever doing anything good, from ever being able to do something other than sin.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And now that Jesus is in us, that His Spirit is now our new controller, our new master, and God is our new Father, we now can finally do good for the first time, right? We are now controlled by something else. We now have a new-

Seth: We can do right

David: ... heritage.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.

David: We can do righteousness. Um-Does that make tons of sense? 'Cause I-

Seth: No

David: ... if it doesn't, I think it might be helpful-

Seth: No

David: ... to go through the posse peccari, posse non-peccari thing.

Seth: No, I think that makes-

David: Okay

Seth: ... uh, makes a ton of sense.

David: Okay.

Seth: Like we ha- I think we've talked about it in the Deuteronomy podcast-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... about, like, we're given new intuitions-

David: Yes

Seth: ... on how to obey God. Like, before God abides in us-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... our intuitions are against God and His law.

David: That's right.

Seth: Now that God abides in us, that part of what is cut away from us in a really powerful way, and we tend to in- intuit what God wants us to do in all the situations that we-

David: His word is written on our heart.

Seth: That's-

David: His law is written on our heart

Seth: ... that's exactly right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So that's what's happening here.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And wh- which is why he can be so blatant when he says, "That's why people who belong to God don't keep on sinning."

David: Right.

Seth: So wait, wait, wait. But I sin all the time. That's not what he's talking about.

David: Right.

Seth: He's talking about, like, that internal motivation, that internal intuition to do what God desires, to do righteousness, as opposed to doing satanic evil or-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... hatred.

David: Let me make that really simple-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... 'cause I, uh, you've just kinda cracked it for me. It's like, uh, the, the... I can't hear the practice of sinning thing-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... and just accept it, 'cause I know the Greek doesn't have the word practice in it.

Seth: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

David: It's just doing sin-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... is the... It's poieo hamartia.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: It's just doing sin, and so it's like, eh, the, the... I feel like that's an overreading of the text.

Seth: Greek nerd.

David: Uh, [laughs] but listen to what John said earlier i- i- in the letter, and that just makes, this makes so much sense to me, where it's like, what does it look like for someone to not do sin in the way he's talking about, to make a practice of sinning, as the ESV translates it, right? It's to do what he said in 1 John 1. We confess our sin. We come, we lay it before Jesus-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and then His blood renews us by, by His righteousness, by His justice, and then we go back out. And we-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... try again, and we come back to Jesus, and we try again, and we come back to Jesus. It's like, [laughs] if you're confessing your sin, you know, and feeling like you need Jesus and throwing yourself into the light, running to Him, like owning up to what you've done, you're not making a practice of sinning. You're making a practice of righteousness.

Seth: That's right.

David: 'Cause you're pursuing righteousness. You want the seed to grow.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So you're we- you're getting rid of the weeds that are choking it out.

Seth: Right.

David: Right?

Seth: It's, it's another reason why you shouldn't be afraid.

David: Yeah, you should not be afraid to run into the light.

Seth: To confess-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and name your sin because it's another way in which we're showing-

David: That we're God's children

Seth: ... I, I think it-

David: Oh

Seth: ... somebody, uh, I think it's Tim Keller who said it. It's like we like to think as we become bigger and better and longer-lasting, lifelong Christians, we would sin less and less.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But the truth of the matter is as we know Jesus as light more and more, the more we'll confess and fe- confess and confess. Mature Christians are the ones that confess the most.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Mature Christians are the, bring more of their stuff into the light of Jesus because that's the practice of righteousness.

David: Yep.

Seth: Giving over our sin to God, asking Him to change our heart, and watching Him do so over time.

David: Yeah, definitely. Ah, that's so good. Um, that's really helpful for me 'cause I think I wanted to create a different dichotomy of, like, okay, um, our works don't save us. Jesus does. But is John saying our works give us assurance? Is that how I'm supposed to under- understand these two things? I'm like, I don't think that's exactly what he's getting here. I think-

Seth: Mm

David: ... it's too simplistic. I think what he's getting at here is that Jesus is making you do less evil things, but because... There's a step before that. Because He's ruling you-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and broken the power of evil.

Seth: Right. We-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... He's anointed us-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the previous passage, and at the end of chapter three, His, uh, His spirit lives within us. Like, there's an indwelling power that has replaced the power of s- sin, the power of anomia, and now because of that indwelling power, we practice, we do righteousness-

David: Mm

Seth: ... over time.

David: Okay. So what, what else is on the agenda for this episode?

Seth: Well-

David: 'Cause I know there... It talks a lot about loving your brother in this, a- and I think we are gonna save most of that for next week when we talk about the famous "God is love" passage and talk about, like, what is love and...

Seth: There are unique emphases here in this love passage which I think are worth exploring.

David: Okay.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yep. Good.

Seth: Um-

David: What else?

Seth: So what, what, what's really interesting is, like, we talked about righteousness and sin in the abstract.

David: Okay, yep.

Seth: Verse 10.

David: Mm.

Seth: Um, "Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." John, like... So we talk about sin and the, the eternal story of-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... s- those who are against God and who are of the devil, and he's like, "Okay, let's boil it down to its barest simple." It's actually about loving your brother.

David: Yeah.

Seth: What does righteousness look like in your life? We could name 100 sins. Let's boil it down. Loving your brother.

David: 'Cause, I mean, it's the opposite of Cain and Abel.

Seth: It's the opposite of Cain and Abel, and I think it's really interesting that he goes on, then, in this story of persecution, 'cause I think God is love is gonna focus on God being love.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And here, it's talking about, what does it look like to love in such a way that gives us assurance-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in comparison to those that hate us because of our righteousness? You have the story of Cain and Abel where you have two brothers, and the evil brother, the brother of the devil-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is attacking the brother of the Lord.

David: Right.

Seth: And what it looks like to be a children, a, a child of God is to love the brother that's trying to kill you.

David: Mm.

Seth: 'Cause I think I've... Most of the time I've been reading this, like, love for the brothers has meant love for the Christian community, love for those of us who are like us, right?

David: Mm. Yeah.

Seth: But throughout Jesus' ministry, love for those that hate us is the mark of a Christian. When Go- somebody comes and asks Jesus, "What's the... How do you fulfill the commands?" Love God and love neighbor. What does He continue to say? "You heard it said, love your neighbor, but I say, love your enemy."

David: Right.

Seth: Like, there's actually-I think it's really powerful that he chooses Cain and Abel because you have this-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... you actually a, a kinship between per- the persecutors and the persecuted.

David: Right.

Seth: And while the persecutors hate the persecuted, the persecuted love their persecutors.

David: Mm.

Seth: And in that, Christ's love is shown. That is righteousness, because how did Jesus die for us?

David: Yep. Verse 16, "This is how we know what love even is, Jesus Christ laid down His life for us." We were His... While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. While we were His enemies, while we hated Him-

Seth: That's right

David: ... He loved us.

Seth: That's right.

David: We were His persecutors literally by putting Him on a cross.

Seth: Right.

David: And He loved us to the end.

Seth: That's something that persecutors can never do.

David: Mm.

Seth: The persecutors can only hate the persecuted.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The persecuted have the opportunity to love the per- persecutors, and in that, righteousness is displayed. And it's actually really funny that he talks about Cain being the, like, the, the prototype for this.

David: Mm.

Seth: Because he says this, "By this we know love, that He laid down His life for us." In Greek, the word he is ekkaines.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Jesus is the anti-Cain.

David: Interesting.

Seth: You have the anti-Christ who are Cain-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... being defeated by the love of the anti-Cain, Christ.

David: Mm. Wow.

Seth: [laughs] Like, undoing that and showing us what righteousness is.

David: The anti... And, like, as Cain brought death into the world, right? The first murder. Cain brought death into the world. Jesus, the anti-Cain, the ekkaines [laughs]

Seth: Yes

David: ... He brings life into the world.

Seth: "We know that we have passed out of death and into life because we love our brothers"

David: Mm

Seth: ... is what verse 14 says.

David: Wow.

Seth: "Whoever does not love abides in death."

David: I mean, and that's interesting then to talk about life and death situations in, in those terms, that it's like it is an act of sacrificial love toward a persecutor-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that brings life into the world and rescues it from death. Like, that is the Christian story.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, okay, that's awesome. And then you, you were talking about getting, like, coming from the abstract and the-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... grandiose and the atmospheric down, boots on the ground. It doesn't get any more boots on the ground than verse 17.

Seth: Yep.

David: [laughs] "If anyone has material possessions [laughs] and sees a brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with actions and in truth." That you see someone who has a ma- physical material need-

Seth: Mm

David: ... you have the means to meet it and you don't meet it, how can you say that Jesus's love is in you?

Seth: That's right.

David: Harsh words.

Seth: Harsh words.

David: But, like, true words.

Seth: And it's building on the same thing. If you have been born of God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... you do righteousness. If you have been saved by the ekkaines, the anti-Cain, who has loved his enemies-

David: Yep

Seth: ... you love your enemies. If you see those in need, you serve those in need.

David: Right.

Seth: By this, by that type of love, we know, verse 19, that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before Him.

David: Another way to say that is to say that if you help somebody in need, you are proving that Jesus's seed is in you.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, 'cause you're doing the ki- same kind of thing He did.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He loved those, like, who persecuted Him. He gave to those who were in need.

Seth: Mm.

David: So when you do that, you're not, like, being a super Christian, you know, or anything. It's like you're just like, "Oh, look, Jesus is in me," you know? Like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that's his point in the most simple terms.

Seth: Right. That's exactly right.

David: Yeah, that's cool.

Seth: And then a- he goes on and says, "But when our hearts condemn us-

David: Yes

Seth: ... God is greater than our hearts and He knows everything."

David: Yeah, so, like, I think this is speaking to those of, those of you, and maybe myself right now, who are thinking about yesterday when you were driving and you stopped at a stoplight and there was a homeless person next to you asking for money, and you were like, "I've got $2. Uh, maybe not," and you drove off.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Uh, and then you felt guilty, and you're like-

Seth: Oh

David: ... "Maybe I'm not a Christian," or may- you know, like-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... maybe Christ isn't in me.

Seth: Yeah, and I think the way I've traditionally read this-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... and the way I've even talked about it, I think episode one, was like, "Don't worry, God's greater than our heart, and He's assuaging your guilt." I think it's, works the opposite way here.

David: Okay.

Seth: He says when our heart condemns us in that way for not having a generous heart towards our brother, God is the more generous soul.

David: Mm.

Seth: He's the more generous heart, and He knows the deficiencies in your own generosity. I, I think that's what he's saying.

David: God is great, and when he says that God is greater than our condemning hearts, he's... You're saying that-

Seth: Right

David: ... like, when we refuse to show generosity to others-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... God is greater and shows generosity to us who don't deserve it.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right.

David: That makes sense.

Seth: Yeah, and so, so beloved, if our hearts don't condemn us, we have confidence g- with God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, so what is he after? He's, he's after us being generous.

David: Right.

Seth: So if your hearts are condemning you from your lack of generosity, look to the God who's been generous towards you-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and who knows how poor, ungenerous you've been in your past, and be generous. How could the love of Christ abide in you if you are not generous, you gather?

David: Mm.

Seth: Be generous. A- show yourself to be a child of God.

David: Yeah. Um, talk, talk to me or talk to our audience about, uh, those who might be thinking or have struggled with the impulse to want to give to the homeless person on the street corner in order to build their confidence. Like, "Oh, if I just... If I give every time I see somebody, then I know I'm safe." You know what I mean? Like-

Seth: Yes.

David: What would you say to that person who's just like, "Uh, yeah, I totally agree with this. Um, every time I see a homeless person, I give, uh, because every time I do, I just know that I'm, like, the... I, I... It just gives me confidence that I, I know me and God are okay." And it's, it just seems like a different motivation.

Seth: It is a mo- well, it's is a different motivation 'cause that's a different person than who John's writing to.

David: Okay.

Seth: So you have one type of person who's saying, "I'm looking for a way to make sure that I get into God's family."

David: Mm.

Seth: "And so I'm gonna give to every homeless person I see-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... so that I can... So that I..."

David: I can prove

Seth: That I can prove I'm, I'm the worthy type of person to be in God's family.

David: Okay.

Seth: The other type of person is wondering whether or not they could be in God's family because their persecution against them is so great.

David: Mm.

Seth: They've been part of God's community for a while. They don't know if they can stand up against the pressures around them, and John's saying, "Okay, let me come to you, little child. Have you been generous to people? You're fine." [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: You know, it's like, "Have you been loving your enemies? Are you praying for your persecutors?" Do, do you know people, people of the devil don't pray for their persecutors?

David: Mm-mm.

Seth: Do you know people who don't give up their cloaks for that person? They don't go the second mile who are of the devil.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And if you're doing those things, you are a child of God. Like, the difference between a assurance and ...

David: Earning

Seth: ... earning-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is, is thin there.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think the idea of a heart condemning in that moment is actually a pretty intelligent way to talk about these dynamics. It's like what's happening behind the scenes in someone's heart-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is all the difference in the world between doing an action to prove that you're worthy of God's love and reflecting on your past actions to know that God has loved you-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and you're a part of His family.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Is that clarifying it?

David: It, what it does is it, it makes me wanna congratulate you for being a good exegete because you've done something good here. You've refused to mirror read-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... to put us in the story. And-

Seth: Right

David: ... and, 'cause I, I've, I've gone, here's, here's a modern-day person who is trying to earn their salvation by being generous to prove that they are the type of person that God would be pleased to call His child, right? And I'm trying to put them in the text and be like, "What does this text say to them?" And you've done the good thing of saying, "That's not who we're talking about."

Seth: Yeah.

David: John's not addressing the person who's trying to earn their salvation.

Seth: Right.

David: So you're trying to put a, put a square peg in a round hole.

Seth: Right.

David: So I just wanted to pause and say, like, everyone listening-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... this has been a good object lesson from Seth of a, um, of, of a tactic we take with scripture pretty regularly where we try to get scripture to address something it's not trying to address.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And we end up making problems that don't exist and solutions that aren't well-grounded. What, what Seth is saying is, um, these are people who just, they need assurance because they're so beat down.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's who we're talking to. We're not talking about-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... people trying to earn their salvation or quest- or even that are questioning, like, if they're good enough. They're just being persecuted. They've been told that maybe what they believed, maybe, maybe Jesus isn't who He said He was, you know, and all these things. They need to know if they're okay.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And He's rooting them, uh-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and giving them assurance based on the fact that their lives have been changed by their encounter with Jesus.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And they're starting to love their brothers in different ways.

Seth: It's the difference between, like, the hypothetical persecuted Chinese Christian who's in a house church right now.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he doesn't know if he can go to church next week because the people might come and get him and put him in prison. And he's wondering, "If that happens and I die in prison, how do I know what's gonna happen in that moment?"

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, "What's gonna happen then?" And then John comes to that person and says, "Okay. What has your life looked like up to this point?" A- and you, he lists his generosity and say, "Okay. You're okay. You are a child of God because children of the devil don't act that way." That's a very different audience-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... than what I think I'm n- I'm used to thinking about when I come to the Book of 1 John.

David: Definitely. So that, that, that is helpful then.

Seth: Um-

David: Any, any closing, any- anything else as we kinda wind chapter three down?

Seth: Well, I mean, I'll wind it down the way that John winds it down.

David: Do it.

Seth: He says, "Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God." We don't need to condemn ourselves because our generosity kinda speaks for itself.

David: Mm.

Seth: Our love for our brothers and our persecutors speaks for itself. "And whatever we ask we receive from God because we keep His commandments and do what pleases Him. And this is the commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as He commanded us." What's all this about?

David: Yeah.

Seth: What's, what is the sum total of the law and the prophets? Love God-

David: Yep, love others

Seth: ... and love others.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

David: The best way to love God.

Seth: And love others.

David: Yeah. [laughs] That's good.

Seth: That's it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: How do you know... How do, how do I know I'm saved, right? Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... what is my confidence rooted in? Do you believe in Jesus? Are you loving your brother? It's as simple as John makes it. "Whoever keeps His commands abides in God, and God abides in him."

David: Yeah. And I love, too, that he also ends it with, uh, "And this is how we know that He lives in us," you know, 'cause he talked about abiding in Him, the seed of Christ dwelling in you, all these kinda mystical things, you know? He's like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... "And this is how we know He lives in us. We know it by the Spirit He gave us." It's like, well, how do I know that I'm going to love my brother? How do I know that I'm gonna, like, be like Jesus in the world? It's like, well, because you have the Spirit in you. You're not ruled by Satan anymore.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You are, you're no longer Cain. You're Abel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, y- you're able to not sin.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: I'm just-

Seth: Oh, gosh. [laughs]

David: ... a play on words. [laughs] This is, like, a, that's, like, a classic, like, Southern Baptist preacher moment. That was-

Seth: That was good.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That was good.

David: That was-

Seth: I'm glad you channeled that for a moment.

David: [laughs] Um, yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's good.

Seth: I, I think what I, I'm, I've been trying to do, even in my personal devotions here, is just to not try to hedge John.

David: Right.

Seth: 'Cause whenever I hear, when, "Whoever keeps His commandments abides in God and God in him," I'm so used to having to say, "Well, He doesn't mean this."

David: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Seth: "He doesn't mean that. He's not trying to do this." I've been trying to hear that line, "Whoever keeps God's commandments abides in God and God in him," I'm so used to that feeling discouraging that I wanted to do the work to make it feel encouraging for me.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And I think I'm kind of getting there. It's like if I do righteousness-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... if I love my brotherGod is in me.

David: Yeah. I feel like what John is asking me to think about, I've been told e- either, whether explicitly or implicitly, is off limits for Christians to think about, where I'm, I'm not allowed to think about how good Jesus is making me.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? I'm just not allowed to think about it.

Seth: That's the-

David: 'Cause humble people don't do that. People, hu- humble people don't think about the fact that like, "Man, I'm better than I used to be." You know? Like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and like, I just feel like if I'm, if I'm ever like, how am I not like others? How, how am I different? Like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... how did I get to this place where like I actually love my wife, and I love my kids, and I'm not as angry as I used to be, and I don't compare myself to others like I used to. I start looking at my sanctification and I'm like, "Oh, isn't that wrong to do?"

Seth: Right.

David: To be like, "Oh yeah, look how good I am." That doesn't have to be what you're doing in that moment.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: You're actually looking at the fact that the seed of God is bearing fruit.

Seth: I, we, I think we had a f- a similar conversation to this a while ago where it's like I felt like for a period of my life my primary identity was one of the sinner-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in need of forgiveness, in need of God's grace. And there was like a ton of formative works that happened in that season of my life. You're a sinner, you need to be saved. You're a sinner, you need to be saved. Repent.

David: Yeah

Seth: ... repent, repent-

David: Right

Seth: ... repent, repent. But actually, on this side of the cross, I'm a son.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's my primary identity now.

David: Yeah, a child of God.

Seth: A child of God, and that actually changes my total self-perception.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: If I'm primarily a sinner, I'm kinda always gonna feel guilty, and guilt's gonna, always gonna be my problem.

David: Mm.

Seth: And we're always gonna figure out... You know, we're always gonna read John looking for a sa- assuaging from guilt.

David: Right.

Seth: But if I'm a son-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... what does it free me to think about?

David: Yeah.

Seth: It frees me to think about all the ways Jesus is changing me by coming and destroying the works of darkness in my heart.

David: Totally. Yeah, I just feel like John is challenging me to like allow myself to find confidence in something I, I used to try to not think about, where it's like, man, reflect with joy when you do good works. It's like, no, I- I'm supposed to like not think about it.

Seth: I'm a sinner first. [laughs] Yeah.

David: Yeah, or even just like don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: And it's just like-

Seth: Yep

David: ... if you do something good, and you do the right thing, and it was holy, and it was righteous, and it was just, forget about it as quick as possible or you negate it. You know? [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: 'Cause-

Seth: That's right

David: ... it's kind of like... And I just think that's masochistic in a way that-

Seth: And it robs us of-

David: It robs us of joy and confidence.

Seth: That's right.

David: It's just all like-

Seth: Well, like, if w- let's just like imagine for a moment-

David: Mm

Seth: ... we would not shrink in shame at His coming.

David: Yes.

Seth: Let's just put that in a, right now.

David: Okay.

Seth: Jesus is here. He's come.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's right here, but most the time I shrink away from, I shrink in shame.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because I'm always there.

David: Right.

Seth: I'm never allowing myself-

David: To be like, "Oh, I am a son."

Seth: I am.

David: "I have been made holy."

Seth: Yes.

David: "I am good and right in God's eyes."

Seth: Last week I did this awesome thing that I know I wouldn't have done a year ago.

David: [laughs] Yes.

Seth: You know? Like-

David: Right

Seth: ... and I don't, I can be confident-

David: Mm

Seth: ... if God showed up in this room right now, and He is right here. I can be confident-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and say, "I am righteous-"

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in front of God.

David: Yeah, in the light.

Seth: In the light, I'm saying-

David: Not, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but Lord, I'm righteous and I'm pursuing righteousness.

Seth: Which is-

David: I'm making a practice of righteousness.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's good news.

David: That's good news.

Seth: I don't know. I like, I'm actually-

David: It's the good, yeah

Seth: ... imagining Jesus sitting right there next to your hoodie-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and like me looking Jesus in the eye-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... and saying, "I am righteous," next to righteousness incarnate.

David: It, it's hard to, yeah.

Seth: But I'm like, "I'm allowed to say that."

David: You're, you're allowed to say that, yeah, which i- it does feel wrong, but that's how good the gospel is.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's good news that-

Seth: That's how bad my childhood was. [laughs]

David: Dude, yeah, seriously, that's how traumatized we are.

Seth: [laughs]

David: But it's like that's how good the news is, that we can look at the good fruit Jesus is bearing in us through His Spirit and go, "Look what I'm doing in Christ. Look how good He's making me."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it not be, not have to be proud or self-aggrandizing.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's like I, I think I've heard it said another way that's like the good news is so gracious and so big that God does the work and allows us to have the credit.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like I think I'm fine with God doing all the work, but I don't think I've ever in my entire life, maybe even right now, been okay taking the credit.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I'm like, "That's part of the gospel I don't think I've-"

Seth: Yeah

David: ... grabbed onto yet, is that God is coming to me as a son and saying, "David, take the credit."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Have confidence. Have joy in what I'm doing in your life." And I'm just like, "I don't think I'm allowed to," [laughs] you know? And like, I'm like, "Man, this is part of the gospel I just don't think I have latched onto yet."

Seth: Makes me feel like I should start making a list of it because it's like I, it's like I, I don't have a list. Like-

David: Well, and, and it'd be-

Seth: ... I couldn't name it

David: ... I, for our longtime listeners, it'd be the antidote to the lists you used to make.

Seth: Yes.

David: You used to make lists of all the reasons why you are condemned.

Seth: Uh-huh.

David: And God's like, "The opposite of that, the son version of that, is here's all the reasons to prove that you're actually my son."

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's cool.

Seth: That's-

David: Well, anyway, thanks for being here-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... for David and Seth's personal counseling session-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... [laughs] as we struggle to understand how good the good news of the gospel is.

Seth: Just, j- I, I feel wandery as I go through the Book of John.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, I'm like, "What is John saying? And are we getting there? Oh, that's it."

David: Oh, there it is.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: And I feel like John rewards that kind of listening and talking.

Seth: Yeah.

David: One of my commentators refers to the Book of John like a DNA strand.

Seth: Like a, a, he-

David: A helix

Seth: ... helix. Yeah.

David: So you have like two like major lines crisscrossing each other as they spiral upward, and then lines connecting-

Seth: Oh

David: ... one part to the other part. And it's like you're, where am I at the DNA strand? I don't know, but it all kinda sounds similar, and it's complicated-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and it's good, like once I get there.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And like I feel that right this moment.

Seth: Oh, it's so good.

David: Well, um, let's see, next week we'll talk about God is love.

Seth: God is love.

David: So tune in for that. That'll be a super fun, uh, episode.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I'm really excited about that. Uh, until then, thank you guys for listening.

Seth: Thank you all so much.

David: And we will see you next week. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

Free videos sent straight to your inbox.

Are You a Son of the Devil? — 1 John 2:28–3:24

Show Notes

Confidence When Jesus Returns

Children of God and Children of the Devil

The Seed of God and the Practice of Righteousness

Love as the Litmus Test

When Your Heart Condemns You

Confidence to Stand Before God

Related Resources

Introduction to 1, 2, & 3 John

View our devotional on 1 John 1:1-4

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the John's Letters: Introductions and Antichrists podcast

Listen to the 1 John 1:1-9: How Do I Know I'm Saved? podcast

Listen to the 1 John 1:10-2:17: How to Stop Sinning podcast

Listen to the 1 John 2:18-27; 4:1-6: Who Is the Antichrist? podcast

Listen to the 1 John 2:28-3:24: Are You a Son of the Devil? podcast

Listen to the 1 John 4:7-5:5: God Is Love podcast

Listen to the 1 John 5:6-21: The Sin that Leads to Death podcast

Listen to the 2 John: The Elect Lady podcast

Listen to the 3 John: Jesus Our Host podcast