Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us. Seth, how are you today?
Seth: Well, I'm surviving.
David: You're surviving. We're both surviving.
Seth: We're both surviving.
David: [laughs]
Seth: This is from deep within the quarantine bubble.
David: This is... We are alone in the office right now.
Seth: Yeah, we are.
David: Because Seth and I both tested positive [laughs] for COVID.
Seth: COVID.
David: Even though we were vaccinated, we both had a breakthrough case, which was super fun.
Seth: On the same day.
David: On the same day.
Seth: I blame you.
David: I mean, I blame you.
Seth: Okay.
David: So, you know. [laughs]
Seth: I see how it is. [laughs]
David: I feel like there's somebody else to blame here.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: No. It's only the person sitting across from me. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Uh, so anyway, uh, we are both on... This is the last day of our quarantine, thank goodness.
Seth: Yes, thank goodness.
David: So, um, but our office mates here at Spoken Gospel have been kind enough to evacuate and-
Seth: Leave us
David: ... leave us [laughs] a whole bunch of Lysol.
Seth: Lysol. [laughs]
David: [laughs] So we're, we're coming to you guys fresh out of quarantine, uh-
Seth: Unable to smell
David: ... s- mine's just coming back
Seth: And ready to talk about the testimony of God.
David: That's right.
Seth: In the water and the blood.
David: Here we go. So yeah, we're at the end of 1 John. Um, it's been really, really cool going through this letter. Um, we just talked about the famous passage, God is love, and how, uh, we overcome the world through our faith in Jesus. Um, and now he's going to talk about where that faith came from, like what it's grounded in, and it's grounded in three testimonies.
Seth: Yeah. If you've ever wondered about the passage in scripture where like Jesus came by water and blood-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... if you thought of... if you've heard about the, uh, there's a sin that leads to death.
David: Oh, yeah, the sin that leads to death.
Seth: Um, that's all in this little section of scripture, and the first thing he talks about is what David just said, is this testimony, uh, that God himself gives.
David: Yeah. It says this in, uh, chapter five of 1 John, verse six. "This is he," uh, talking about Jesus, "who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ. Not by the water only, but by the water and the blood." And then we'll stop there for, for now-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... before we get to the... there's a third witness-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the, the Spirit, but we'll get there.
Seth: Well, what's... first thing that is interesting here is that he feels the need to double down on the fact that he comes by both water and blood.
David: Right.
Seth: So apparently, part of the message of the Antichrist was that they were okay with Jesus coming by water-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but not okay with him coming by blood.
David: Definitely.
Seth: So that's interesting.
David: Yes.
Seth: So, okay, well, fi- what is water and blood?
David: Yes.
Seth: [laughs] That's a-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... thorough question.
David: So, I mean, w- shall we talk about the alternative views? Uh, we haven't even discussed what we each believe. I assume-
Seth: I-
David: ... based on what you said especially that we think the same thing.
Seth: [laughs] My thought here is that this is referring to Jesus's two baptisms.
David: Okay.
Seth: So you have the baptism by water-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that happened at the Jordan River where the Holy Spirit came down, and God himself spoke from heaven.
David: Yes.
Seth: Three witnesses, which we're about to get to-
David: That's right
Seth: ... three witnesses right here. And then you have the baptism by blood that happened at the cross.
David: Right.
Seth: And Jesus himself refers to th- his cross as a baptism of blood-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in Mark 10:38, when James and John are saying, "Can I sit to your right hand and left hand?"
David: "Can you be baptized with the baptism with which I'll be baptized?" [laughs]
Seth: Yes, that's what Jesus said.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He used baptism, baptism three times to describe his crucifixion. So I think he's referring to Jesus's two baptisms.
David: Yes. I-
Seth: Um
David: ... completely agree.
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... okay. Well, great. We're-
David: Yeah.
Seth: We are agreed. [laughs]
David: We are agreed. And the reason why the antichrists did not believe that Jesus came, that Jesus, the Christ, came by water and by blood is really important for their heresy. Um, so apparently, they believed th- uh, it's, it's likely, we can't ac- actually prove this-
Seth: Mm
David: ... 'cause we don't have their documents.
Seth: Right.
David: But we have other, like, uh, similar heresies that came about soon after this period of time that carried this idea that Jesus, the person in the flesh, the human being, was intermixed with the Christ, the Messiah from heaven, at his baptism. That at-
Seth: Ah
David: ... his baptism, when God the Father showed up and said, "This is my Son with whom I'm well pleased," you know-
Seth: Like-
David: "... listen to him"
Seth: ... mingled with...
David: Yes, the Christ inhabited, indwelt Jesus, the person. And then f-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... from that moment to the cross, but not through the cross-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not past the cross, but up to the moment of the cross, Jesus was the Christ.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: But then the heresy is... Well, I mean, that's already super heresy-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... that he-
Seth: Super heresy. [laughs]
David: Super... But then they believe that the Christ left the person-
Seth: Hm
David: ... of Jesus-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... before the cross and did not endure death.
Seth: Interesting.
David: Uh, and so for John to say that he, he was, he, he was the... Jesus was the Christ through water-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not at water-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not in water, through, that means he was before.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Uh, and then and blood, that he ma- that Jesus was-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... the Christ all the way through his death.
Seth: Interesting. I had a different, like... s- so that makes a ton of sense.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, as we, like, mirror read what wa- what-
David: That's right
Seth: ... what was it the antichrists were teaching, I had a, like a different set of symbols in my head-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as I was reading this. I kept thinking about the Exodus narrative-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where you have blood, water, and spirit as the three signs of God's salvation of his people. You have the Nile turning to blood. You have the waters being parted, and IsraelGoing i-into the wilderness, and then you have, uh, the Spirit guiding Israel through-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the wilderness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And these were the witnesses-
David: Right
Seth: ... of God's salvation to the people of Israel, and so you have here those same three witnesses again, water, blood, and Spirit.
David: Mm.
Seth: And they are the evidence that Jesus has come and saved his people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so these pe- and so these antichrists are denying part of the salvation of God for his people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that he's come by blood. And I wonder, too, if mixed in with that, there's also a sense it's like, "Oh, the Messiah can't be bloody."
David: Oh, totally.
Seth: The-
David: Yes
Seth: ... God can't bleed. It's-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it's, it's inappropriate or offensive to ha- God can come by water. There's something holy and pure about water.
David: Yes.
Seth: He can speak in a divine voice from heaven.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: The Spirit can land on him, but he can't be bloodied.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, there, you can't have that much human in the divine, which is actually w-what John says earlier, too.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, they deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
David: Right.
Seth: So I was, I was thinking about that, too.
David: Yeah, and it's... Yeah, it's both sides. It's how he came into this world and how he left this world both-
Seth: Mm
David: ... bother the antichrists.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That he could have been born the Christ.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Right, right.
David: "Unto us a child is born, and his name will be Immanuel" is offensive because it's too fleshly for God to have been an embryo.
Seth: Yes.
David: For God to have been-
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes
David: ... born. Uh, and so they needed something more spectacular and set apart. He manifests himself and indwells the person of Jesus at the water.
Seth: Something more transcendent than that.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, no, the good news that John is telling us to believe is that God became flesh, and, like, they... He was a personal witness to that, that he was born, that he, like, was confirmed as Jesus the Christ, Jesus the Messiah at his baptism.
Seth: Yes.
David: But that's not where he became Jesus the Messiah, and then he remained all the way through, and God in the flesh died. He was baptized in blood. He, like, suffered, and, like, that's important for... That is the gospel.
Seth: Right.
David: It's not just important for the gospel. It is the gospel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that we have propitiation, like, which he's talked about earlier.
Seth: Mm.
David: Um, and you can't have that.
Seth: That God has come and done this thing.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the reason why this is important, again, so it's a why is John going all the way back and saying, "Remember-"
David: Mm.
Seth: "... you have witnesses to the fact that Jesus is who he said he is."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Jesus claimed to be divine," and he's actually, in this last section, is gonna have his strongest claim of Jesus's divinity. He's gonna say, "Jesus is the true God."
David: Mm.
Seth: It's the strongest way he's put it since the beginning of this letter, um, is because antichrists, if you're joining us for the first time-
David: Mm
Seth: ... are like, "Why are you throwing around the word antichrist so liberally?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: Antichrist is anyone who denies that Jesus-
David: Is the anointed one
Seth: ... is the anointed one-
David: The Messiah
Seth: ... that Jesus came in the flesh, that Jesus died on the cross, uh, that the Son of God died on the cross, that the Son of God came.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's-
David: That's it
Seth: ... all an antichrist is-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to John.
David: And there's lots of them.
Seth: And there's lots of them. They're everywhere.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what he's doing here then, um, is again confirming to people who are tempted to believe what the antichrists are teaching-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or at least confused by what the antichrists-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are t-t-teaching. He said, "Okay, let's set it up like a court case for you-"
David: Mm
Seth: "... for a second. How do you know something's true in a court? When you have witnesses."
David: Right, and for a Jew-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, or even for anybody who has the Old Testament, it was important that it was two or three witnesses.
Seth: Yes. It couldn't be less than two.
David: Right, and so it's interesting. You know, that, that's an Old Testament law that you could not convict somebody without two or three witnesses, and, like, uh, Jesus picks up this language himself whenever he says, like, "Where two or three are gathered in my name-"
Seth: Ah
David: "... I'm with them," meaning when two or three people witness, like, something, pray for something together, I, I'm confirming that.
Seth: He also does it in the Book of John-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when he's confirming to the Pharisees who he is. It's like, "If you didn't believe me, believe the voice-"
David: Oh
Seth: "... you heard from heaven, and if you didn't believe the voice that you heard from heaven, believe my works." Three witnesses.
David: Right, three witnesses.
Seth: Oh, and then he mentions Moses.
David: Moses.
Seth: Too, yeah, yeah.
David: But it's interesting even the way that f- that John here structures the argument, is he starts with two, and then he gives a third.
Seth: Mm.
David: So that way we see that it's two or three. It's water and the blood, and it's both. It's water and blood.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: And the Spirit.
Seth: Mm.
David: So if two wasn't enough, here's a third.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's, like, clear that he's saying, like, "I am trying to bolster my case against the antichrists-"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... using Old Testament law as the grounding, that two or three witnesses, I'm gonna destroy the case of the antichrists.
Seth: Yep, and that's what he... It's, his... And that's what he means by testimony, testify, witnesses.
David: Yep.
Seth: That, that word group, testimony, testify, witness, is all concentrated right here in this l- these verses that we're reading. So, like, that idea, the idea of a testimony of, like, a legal witness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is the central point you're meant to get out of this little section.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So here, here's, here's the whole context. "This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ." Now, unlike what those antichrists are saying, "Not by water only, but by the water and the blood, and the Spirit is the one who testifies, who gives witness, because the Spirit is the truth, because there are three that testify, the spirit and the water and the blood, and these three all agree." There are three witnesses.
David: And they al- and they all are saying the same thing.
Seth: That Jesus is the God who has died, who has come, and who has died to give you eternal life.
David: Right, yeah. I mean, that's a strong case, that if you had three witnesses to an event that are all saying the exact same thing happened, that happened.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, [laughs] that is a, is a-
Seth: And-
David: That is a slam dunk case, open and shut.
Seth: And what's crazy... So, so think about it. If you're in this imaginary court case hearing all the lies of the antichrist, the, their court case they're prosecuting or they're-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and they're trying to, like, gin up the best witnesses possible.
David: Yep.
Seth: So you got God.
David: [laughs]
Seth: You've got the Holy Spirit.
David: And we got a killer witness.
Seth: You've got the blood of Jesus and the empty tomb.
David: Yep.
Seth: You have the water where God spoke from heaven-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and a dove landed on him. What?What more, what better qualified witnesses do you need?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he says this, "If we receive the testimony of men," meaning we trust men-
David: Right
Seth: ... to get things right.
David: Whenever, like, the, our Old Testament law says, "Where two or three are gathered," like, "where two or three give witness, believe them." We believe the word of man when two or three do it.
Seth: Right.
David: How much more so God?
Seth: Yes. "The testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that He has born concerning His Son."
David: Mm.
Seth: What's the testimony? "Whoever does not... Oh, whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself, and whoever does not believe..." It gets confusing, 'cause he, I thought he was gonna, I thought he was gonna reveal right there.
David: Oh. [laughs]
Seth: So I was reading like he was gonna reveal.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, let's just pause before we get-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to the reveal.
David: Okay.
Seth: So did that make sense-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so far?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like he's building this court case, he's presenting the evidences, here's all the witnesses, you must believe them. You trust men, why wouldn't you trust God?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Anything you wanna add to that?
David: I don't think so. Makes sense.
Seth: Okay. Well then I guess I'll keep reading.
David: Okay.
Seth: Never mind.
David: Go for it.
Seth: So verse 10 says, uh, this: "Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself." So I think what this means-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... it means whoever believes in Jesus-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... in the Son of God, knows or has that or has internalized the truth of the divinity of Jesus inside of them, the fact that God has come for, for us.
David: Yeah. I mean, it's-
Seth: That's what it means
David: ... the Spirit.
Seth: The Spirit.
David: Yeah. It's like we, He said earlier that no one can believe that Jesus is the Son of God unless they have the Spirit.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so you have three witnesses, two of which are external, the water and the blood, one of which is internal-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the Holy Spirit. And so whoever believes in the Son of God has the witness of the Spirit inside of them. Like, that's how they believe.
Seth: Got it.
David: That's what he's saying.
Seth: Okay. And then it goes on, "But whoever does not believe God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... whoever does not believe God has made Him a liar, because He's not believed in the testimony that God's made, uh, has born concerning His Son."
David: That's right. The, God's on the witness stand-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... right? And He's saying, "This is my Son. Here's the evidence." And then people who get up and say, "That's not Jesus"-
Seth: What is the-
David: It, it's like, it's like a prosecuting attorney, you know, standing up to, you know, a witness on the stand saying, "Liar"-
Seth: Right
David: ... "you're under oath. Tell the truth."
Seth: Right.
David: You know? And it's like you either believe God or you don't.
Seth: That's right.
David: [laughs] God is either truth or He's a liar.
Seth: And anyone who claims that Jesus Christ has not come in the flesh-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who has not been baptized by both water and blood, is calling God a liar.
David: That's right.
Seth: Is, he- that person that calls God a liar is an antichrist.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which is the same thing we've said, that John's been saying since the beginning.
David: Yep.
Seth: "And this is the testimony," which it was like, wait, haven't we already had the testimony that Jesus is God?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But here's a further deepening. What does it mean for Jesus to be God? What does it mean for the Son of God to come to earth-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to die for our sins? What does all that mean? "This is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Whoever has the Son has life, and whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." So we've added something here.
David: Mm.
Seth: This isn't just a witness about a historical fact.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's also a witness about what that historical fact accomplishes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes.
Seth: And what I think is really interesting is whenever I hear the words eternal life, I think extended lifespan.
David: Right.
Seth: I get to live forever.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: That's the witness that God is telling me.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's says something, he's, he says something a little bit different. This life, this eternal life is in His Son-
David: Right
Seth: ... and whoever has the Son has that eternal life.
David: That's right.
Seth: So what I'm, what it makes me think about is that I have too small of a view of eternal life.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Because eternal life generally to me means I get to live forever.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But really, he's defining it more as almost relational-
David: That's right
Seth: ... or an abiding. Like, to live forever means to be with Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be intimate with Jesus, be one with Jesus, to have Jesus. Um, and I think that's more important.
David: Yeah, totally. It's like I, I think it's, it's often thought about that we get eternal life to have an eternal amount of time to spend with Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to put it in the best possible light.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? But what John is saying here, and I think what you just said, is we get the Son, we get Jesus-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... and in, or, and like, as we get Jesus in that relationship, being with Him is eternal.
Seth: Or eternal life is Jesus.
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like we wanna divorce the eternality of the afterlife, it, you know-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... to put it that way-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... from the relationship.
Seth: Yes.
David: That it's like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... I wanna, like, it's like you can live forever so that you can have a, you know, a relationship with Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is different than saying your relationship with Jesus itself is eternal life.
Seth: Right.
David: That's different.
Seth: That is different.
David: Okay.
Seth: And like, and it kinda changes, too, what's... It changes for me how I see or think about the antichrists.
David: Okay.
Seth: Whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. They are rejecting, they aren't rejecting the idea that they wanna live forever.
David: Right.
Seth: They're rejecting what it means to live forever.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Being with Jesus is the point of eternal life.
David: Yes.
Seth: Or it is-
David: Is itself
Seth: ... synonymous-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with eternal life. And so to reject Jesus is to reject all final hope of immortality. Like-
David: And the reason this is confusing to us is because we have a different gloss for eternal life, a different understanding of it based on, you know, a, centuries of progressing Christian thought.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know, it's just like eternal life is this thing that we get that allows us to live forever. By the way, neither Seth and I are saying we won't live forever with Jesus. I just want to make sure-
Seth: Yeah, it has to be at least that
David: ... I just, I just-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... wanna make sure no one thinks we're, we're saying that we don't believe that. Um, but w- it makes so much sense inside of 1 John itself, because he has already identified-... life itself as Jesus. He did it at the beginning-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of his letter. And eternal life itself is Jesus. It was with the Son. Jesus has always had eternal life in himself. He has always been eternal life in himself. He is God. In the beginning, God is his purview, you know? [laughs] It's, it's who he is, is life. And so when you get God, when you get Jesus, you get the life that he has always had inside himself.
Seth: Right. And think about it even maybe from the other, this side of eternity, like how has John consistently talked about what it means to be saved?
David: Mm.
Seth: God being in us.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the Antichrist don't have God in them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So when you have eternal life in you now-
David: Right now
Seth: ... it does, uh, that, that, that is the beginning of what it will look like forever.
David: That's right.
Seth: And the Antichrist have already said, "We hate that. We don't want that."
David: Mm.
Seth: "We don't want that Christ in us because we prefer something, we prefer something else." So I think it's, and I think that's important to have this sense that, like, union with Christ, being in Christ, abiding in God, God abiding in us, is the central factor of what eternal life is, especially as we go on.
David: Mm.
Seth: But also, as we just think about heaven.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So maybe just the question that I keep asking is why is it better to think about heaven as intimacy or being with or being one with Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... over and above being alive forever in a place where Jesus is?
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: It does. Um-
Seth: And I, I wanna, I want that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to land for me personally-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... 'cause I feel like I'm trying to talk myself into it. I don't know, know if I have it yet, but.
David: Yeah, I mean, it's like y- y- you think about, you know, you live in this eternal city where Jesus is, and it's like every now and then you go visit him, you know? [laughs] It's like, is that the, is that the-
Seth: Right
David: ... is that the version of heaven that we're kind of like-
Seth: I, I play football with him sometimes.
David: Right. Yeah
Seth: You know, we like, we play catch. [laughs]
David: He comes out to my rock concert. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it feels so esoteric. I think I'm having trouble, like, grabbing onto this idea, and I don't know if we've elevated it too high or something, where it's like... 'Cause John's such a practical book. I'm just like, is, uh, like, uh, what does it mean? It means that, like, to get Jesus is to get life, and I think a lot of us wanna divorce the two.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's like we want life, and, you know, I'm okay with what John Piper says when he says that if you got heaven without God, it would be hell.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I, I get that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm glad God's there.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's the, he's the best good.
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: And I wanna enjoy the best good, and I'm glad that He's there, so heaven will be full of God. I'm really happy about that.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, that, that's still different than I think what John and, and you were getting at here, which is like it's about having Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's about being with Jesus and Jesus being with you, in you, you in Him, you know, which is super Johannine, uh, which is, s- sorry, a fancy way of saying, like-
Seth: John's
David: ... John's.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, you know, you read the high priestly prayer, you read, uh, you know, the last things that Jesus said, John 15 through 17. He talks all about this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, I, I really wanna land what you're driving at-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause I think it's important. Any way forward that you can see?
Seth: No, I mean, I c- it kinda goes even, I guess it goes back to, like, what even we talked about last week. God is love.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There is a, um, not a primacy within the way that we describe God, about God's more loving than-
David: Yes
Seth: ... he is anything else.
David: Yes, yes.
Seth: But there i- I think John seems to be emphasizing for the sake of his audience, and at least for us, that relational, intimate, indwelling facet of our experience of God, that shouldn't go unaddressed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so maybe that's all we need to say is, like, when he says eternal life, don't just think-
David: Live forever
Seth: ... live forever-
David: Right
Seth: ... expend- extending your lifespan indefinitely. Think about, like, the reason why you were saved, the reason there are three witnesses is to prove to you, to remind you, that you will be with Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that's the, and maybe that's it.
David: That's it.
Seth: You'll be with J- 'cause what's the, the, been on the line the whole time? Am I in him or am I not?
David: Right.
Seth: Am I-
David: When he comes, am I going to shrink back from him in shame, or will I stand before him in confidence?
Seth: Right. The whole, the whole crisis of faith that these people have been having is am I with God or am I not?
David: Right.
Seth: And he's saying-
David: There's three witnesses that said, "You will be."
Seth: And think about it this way. Maybe, maybe-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... it's historical fiction for a second.
David: Okay.
Seth: The, uh, people John was writing to had the same problem we have. Eternal life just means an extended lifespan.
David: Sure.
Seth: And he's saying, "Okay, you've..." But, like, does that really help you? Extended lifespan help you under to know if you're with God or not?
David: Mm.
Seth: Let me expand for you what eternal life actually is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You have eternal life based on the witness of God. Can you overturn that? You don't call God a liar. He's God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And God says eternal life is being with Jesus.
David: Yeah. I mean, imagine this existential fear of are me and God really okay?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, am I really in Jesus? Is Jesus really in me? Like, I quest- I think that often.
Seth: Right.
David: And imagine that existential dread and fear being stretched out over an eternal life.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's bad news.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Like, that is bad news to think about, like, yeah, you live forever, and Jesus is there, but you still don't know if you're in him or not, you know? It's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you, there's still no confidence is bad news.
Seth: It's bad news.
David: But to know that you're in him forever is good news. [laughs] It's like that's the, I think that's the core difference.
Seth: I mean, he even says in the very next verse, 13, "I write these things to you," and I think he's referring to the re- the all the previous parts of his letter that he's written.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: "To you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that, the whole, that, that's the whole point of the letter.
David: Right.
Seth: Is for him to know that these-Beleaguered, doubting, unsure Christians would know that they know that they know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that they are in God, Jesus is with them, and they have that type and that quality of eternal life.
David: Right. And to, for John at this point in his letter, for him to say, "So that you may know you have eternal life," is synonymous with him saying, "So that you may know you have the Son."
Seth: Yes.
David: It's the same thing.
Seth: It's the same thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I was even thinking-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I was wondering if, like, light helps us, 'cause the, the first way that he talks about-
David: Right
Seth: ... God is light.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And in Him there is no darkness at all. I was wondering if, like, that you may know that you are in the light-
David: Right
Seth: ... helps us understand what it means to be with... Light and life are those con- are connected terms.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: Eternal life and eternal light-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... feel different to me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Eternal life automatically makes me think of the extension of my existence.
David: Mm.
Seth: Eternal light makes me think of the quality of my existence-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or the experience of it, like the purity, the brilliance of it, the enlightenment of it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I, I wonder if there's a connection there between what it means to be with Jesus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and to be with light-
David: Mm
Seth: ... forever that might be worth reflecting on-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... audience. [laughs]
David: Yeah, go for that.
Seth: Go for that.
David: That's true. I mean, and it's very... John is painting us into that corner to think about that.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: So, yeah.
Seth: He, he's done all the interlocking work for us to like-
David: Yeah, it's one of those things for you to now go meditate on. [laughs]
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah. And then he says, "And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us."
Seth: So he's moving to talking about prayer now.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Based on this confidence we have in eternal life, now we get to move on to how do we approach God and talk to Him and ask things of Him.
David: Yeah. It's, it feels like a strange move. Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... 'cause, like, he hasn't really talked about prayer the whole book, right? Like-
Seth: Nope, nope.
David: So for him to just be like, "And now we have this confidence to go-"
Seth: Well, what do you do to people that you're with?
David: Talk to them. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] I mean, talking to God is probably too anemic of a way to talk about what prayer is.
David: Sure.
Seth: But at, on a very basic level, w-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there's that. And then what, why would you wanna be near God in the first place?
David: Mm.
Seth: These people are being attacked and possibly even murdered. I'm assuming they want God to rescue. They want Him to come near. They want comfort. They want-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... assurance.
David: Assurance, yeah.
Seth: All the things, all the things we've been talking about, they say come from their letter, they're probably asking of God in, in their quiet times.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, but not, not that it, it literarily doesn't, it comes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... out of nowhere, but I wonder humanly if it makes a lot of sense.
David: Yeah, definitely. Where it's just like, "Okay, fine, I, I believe this logically now. You've built-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... an airtight argument. The witnesses have taken the stand. I believe that Jesus is the Christ, and I have confidence that I have eternal life in Him. Now what do I do?" You know? It-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... and it's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... well, you be in that relationship. If you're in Him, and it's like, well then, okay, if I'm in Him and I am supposed to have this relationship, on what grounds do I talk to Him?
Seth: Mm.
David: On what g- what, on what grounds do I have a relationship with the living God, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, oh, on the same grounds, and you can approach Him with confidence. Um, which I think that word confidence is really interesting. Um, John Stott, who I think we've mentioned before, uh, he says that the, uh, the Greek word parrhesia-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... the literal translation, and it's translated, it's glossed similarly to this throughout, uh, some other texts, but it means free speech.
Seth: The word confidence means free speech?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it's like to speak freely. And it's like to think about prayer as an exercise in free speech with God-
Seth: That's interesting
David: ... and, like, that's how He wants you to come to Him is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... kinda crazy.
Seth: Yeah, 'cause I think, um, even the people I'm closest with, like my wife, I'm always finding that I have to adjust my speech-
David: Right
Seth: ... because I'm a-afraid of offending, because I'm afraid of X, because I know last time I brought this up-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I did it poorly. Like I'm always-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... afraid. I'm always-
David: I can't breach that subject. If I'm gonna ask for this, I have to give these caveats.
Seth: Yeah, I'm always unfree in my speech.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the idea of being totally free before anyone is p- actually fairly foreign-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to my entire [laughs] existence as a human.
David: Totally. Yeah.
Seth: But that's an amazing promise.
David: Yeah. And so, like, to, to come to con- uh, like, to come with Him with free speech, with confidence, and to ask anything, but it's not just to ask anything, right? It's to ask anything in accordance with His will.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Then we know that He hears whatever we ask because we've asked it in accordance with His will.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So this is one of those, again, these kind of connected dyads that John has done throughout, right? So he said, like, "How do we know that we're in Him if we love our brother?" Now he's saying, "How do we know He hears us if we ask things according to His will?"
Seth: Ah.
David: He's doing the same thing he's always done. Um, and I just was like, "Okay, but how do I know I'm asking something in accordance [laughs] with His will?" You know? Um, and I think it's interesting that, uh, like an interesting question to ask of, like, how much of my prayer life, my relationship with Jesus, goes into, like, knowing His will. You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, yeah.
Seth: And let, let's talk about will then.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: So, like, I think, okay, we can, we can speak freely before God. Awesome.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we can ask anything we want according to His will, and we're confident that He will hear us and answer us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We will h- we know we have the request that we have asked of Him.
David: Right.
Seth: This is, like, guaranteed promise.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If we ask according to His will, we will get.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I have one question behind the question is, like, how do we get, how do we know that?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But the sec- the question you're asking is, well, what is according to His will?
David: Yeah, how do we know that we're praying according to His will?
Seth: I think it's probably helpful to talk about two different ways people talk about God's will.
David: Okay.
Seth: Sometimes we ta-- there's, like, this idea of a secret will of God or-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the decreed will of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's the timeline.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like-
David: The sacred timeline. [laughs]
Seth: The sacred timeline. Let's-
David: Any Loki fans out there?
Seth: [laughs] It's whatever happens in the course of every event in every person's life.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh-
David: I just w- I, I wanna know if what I'm gonna do is in God's will or not.
Seth: Yeah, should I marry this person? Should I move to that city? Should I eat at that restaurant? Should I put those socks on?
David: Right.
Seth: Those are all-
David: I don't wanna create a branch from the sacred timeline. [laughs]
Seth: Right, I don't wanna create a branch from the sacred timeline. God, please make sure I choose the right socks today.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I've actually prayed that prayer before.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I don't know.
David: That doesn't surprise me. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Have you not?
David: No.
Seth: I w- like, I, I usually have, like, a lot of anxieties as a kid about not wearing the right clothes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when I went out.
David: No.
Seth: And so I would pray to ask anyway. So there's that version-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... of trying to know God's will and asking for that thing. And, and, and maybe less pedantically, but, like, um, God, I want this person to be healed. I want-
David: Right
Seth: ... this job interview to go right.
David: If it's your will.
Seth: If it's your will.
David: Right.
Seth: Or I want to get this job, or I want this side of the war to win, or I wanna be able-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to go to Paris someday. Like, there's those types of prayers.
David: I want the Cubs to win the pennant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Whatever it is. And, like, how do we know... And we are hoping that if we pray it the right way, God's will will be moved in that direction.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I just wanna name... That's called, like, the secret will of God, the timeline will of God. Like, that's-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... one version.
David: Okay.
Seth: But there's a differ- another type of will of God theologians talk about called, like, um, the, the decretive-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... will of God or-
David: Or the revealed
Seth: ... the revealed will of God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is simply God's-
David: What-
Seth: ... promises in Scripture.
David: Yeah, what God says he wants and does.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so-
David: Is it, is it God's will that you murder someone? No.
Seth: No.
David: His revealed will has said, "Don't murder."
Seth: Yes.
David: So you always know murder is against-
Seth: Is, is-
David: ... his will.
Seth: Yes.
David: So that's just [laughs] that's the revealed will of God.
Seth: And we know it's always in his will, will to reveal his love for us-
David: That's right
Seth: ... his love towards us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because of what John says here-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and how it's operate.
David: So it's like when people are like, "I just wanna know if it's God's will for me to, like, share my faith with this person," it's like, yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: It is because he d- he revealed to you the Great Commission to go into all the nations.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? And so, like, we know that's his will.
Seth: And so what I love about... So, so that- that's the background information. So with this-
David: The secret will of God and the revealed will of God.
Seth: And so y- John's not talking about the secret timeline will of God. He's talking about the revealed will of God in his word.
David: Right.
Seth: And to John's audience, that would've been his Old Te- the Old Testament.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what that means is-
David: And we... And sorry, we know that because of everything else John has said.
Seth: Yes.
David: To obey his commandments, to keep his commandments.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, like, that's, that... To love your brother. Like, he's harped on that so much that that's the only category in your head for, like, well, what does God want from me? Keep your commandments. Believe in the Son. It's like, okay, so what does it mean to keep his will? To keep his commandments.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: To believe the Son. [laughs] Like, that would be very-
Seth: So if w- if we pray God's promises-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they will come to pra- pass.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's the promise.
David: What's an example of, of praying God's promises, like, that he's revealed? Can you think of, like, just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... any kind of example? 'Cause it's like I pray that I would... I mean, okay, to be fair, I was gonna, like, make fun of this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's like I pray that I wouldn't murder that person today, you know?
Seth: I mean, that's a decent prayer. [laughs]
David: And it's like he said, I... And I was, like, gonna, like, make fun of that, but it's like lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from the evil one, is part of the Lord's Prayer. I mean-
Seth: I mean, 1 John 5:5, "Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What is a promise of God? I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, so I expect to overw- overcome the world today.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like-
David: Did you say sun god or Son of God?
Seth: Son of God.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I don't know what I said. I blame COVID. [laughs] Um, but that's-
David: But yes, right
Seth: ... like what has God revealed-
David: Mm-hmm, yep
Seth: ... as a promise-
David: Right, that we will overcome the evil one
Seth: ... we will overcome the evil one.
David: Right.
Seth: And I can pray that and expect it-
David: True
Seth: ... to happen.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Now, how do we know that it'll happen is an interesting one.
David: Oh, that's the question behind the question that we talked about earlier.
Seth: Because it's like... 'Cause one way I think is like, okay, I'm gonna pray-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that I will overcome the evil one. God's gonna hear that prayer, and then he's gonna send his angels out, and then a few days later, maybe I'll overcome the evil one. You know, like, there's, like, a step between my prayer-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and then God's action, right?
David: Okay.
Seth: Well, that doesn't make any kinda sense with how John has been talking about where God resides.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God lives in us.
David: In, yeah.
Seth: So the reason why we have confidence when we pray according to God's will, that he hears us, and that he will do it, is because the, the God who hears is in us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The Jesus who has br- made us confident to speak freely, who has atoned for our sins, is inside of us. There's no distance-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in authority or listening between our prayer according to God's will and God's will being done because God and us, to some degree, are synonymous beings.
David: We're one.
Seth: We're one.
David: I mean, yeah, the Bible says that multiple places.
Seth: We are one.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We are new creations with God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So why can we be confident God's will will come to pass in our life when we pray it? Because he's in us.
David: Right.
Seth: How could it not come?
David: How could it not?
Seth: And I mean, he'll even say that, like, "Those who believe in Jesus do not go on sinning."
David: Mm.
Seth: Because how could it n- how could we?
David: How could, how could we?
Seth: How could we?
David: Jesus is in us.
Seth: Jesus is in us.
David: Jesus doesn't sin.
Seth: I... So I wanted to stress, like, I think that's what John means here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's an immediacy and a confidence that our prayers will be answered because the God who answers prayers is in us.
David: Mm-hmm. That's really good.
Seth: And we are him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In him.
David: That's very good. Uh, I wanted, I didn't wanna move on from this subject without quoting this line from John Stott's commentary, his Tyndale Commentary on the Letters of John. Um, he says that the con- uh, the condition of answered prayer is whether... Oh, sorry, back in 3:22.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, he says, "The condition of answered prayer is whether our behavior accords with God's commands, but here, uh, the condition is whether our requests accord with his will."Now, this is where I want you, everybody to start paying attention. "Prayer is not a convenient device for imposing our will upon God or for bending His will to ours, but it is the prescribed way of subordinating our will to His. It is by prayer that we seek God's will, embrace it, and align ourselves with it." And then this is the line that blew me away. "Every true prayer is a variation on the theme 'Your will be done.'"
Seth: Hmm.
David: Our master taught us to say this in his pattern, in the, in the pattern prayer He gave us, the Lord's Prayer, and He added the supreme example of it in Gethsemane.
Seth: Hmm.
David: And I was like, I don't think I've ever thought about the exercise of prayer as some variation of the theme, "Your will be done."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is a daily, hourly-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... minute-by-minute subordination to the will of God who is in me. God is in me saying, like, "Let's go." Like, "I want, I wanna manifest my will and commands and love in your life, David." And my prayers are variations on the theme of, "Yes, help me get out of the way."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, "Help me subordinate to your design, your commands, your will." And it's like, of course those, uh, those prayers get answered.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, uh, to your point-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... where it's like God is wanting to manifest himself-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in your life, and obedience in your life, and sinlessness in your life, and love for brother in your life, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and being in the light, all these things John's talked about, and it's like, man, prayer is the way that we subordinate ourselves to that will. Your will be done.
Seth: I like that a lot.
David: John Stott.
Seth: I like that a lot.
David: [laughs]
Seth: John Stott, he's a master.
David: He's a master.
Seth: He's a master.
David: [laughs] He knows what he's doing.
Seth: Uh-
David: Knew what he was doing
Seth: ... knew what he was doing.
David: RIP.
Seth: Um, yeah, I like that. All prayers are a, a riff on the theme of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "Your will be done."
David: Anyway, I just-
Seth: Um
David: ... was blown away by that. Didn't wanna move on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... without that.
Seth: And then also, the co- uh, yeah, yeah, that's, we got nothing else to say on that one.
David: Yeah, it's great.
Seth: That's it. And he, but John continues to talk about prayer.
David: Yes.
Seth: So we can be confident in our prayers, including this prayer he's about to talk about.
David: Okay.
Seth: Verse 16, "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life. To those who commit sins that do not lead to death, to," yeah, "to those who do, commit sins-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that do not lead to death. Now, there is a sin that leads to death, and I don't say that you should pray for that."
David: Mm.
Seth: "All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin that does not lead to death."
David: This is a highly debated passage.
Seth: Super debated passage, and in the three commentaries, I think we-
David: That we read, all of them disagreed with each other. [laughs]
Seth: Yes, and I think they even mentioned, like, nine in to-
David: Nine interpretations. [laughs]
Seth: Nine possible total inter- interpretations. So-
David: So we've solved it.
Seth: We've solved it.
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: The important things to keep in mind that are, are clear here. One, we can have confidence that our prayers are answered.
David: Yes. Important takeaway.
Seth: Including prayers for people who are committing certain types of sins.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Not all prayers should be prayed for people who are committing sins. Certain kinds of sins.
David: Mm.
Seth: There's a sin that leads to death, and you shouldn't pray for those-
David: Right
Seth: ... is what John says.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Why? Because maybe they'll get de- maybe it'll happen? [laughs]
David: [laughs] Well, I think it's because it's not God's will.
Seth: It wouldn't be God's will.
David: Right.
Seth: Right.
David: That, I mean, that's the only thing we've t- been told not to pray-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... are things that aren't in accord with God's will. So to not pray for something, it would be synonymous with-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that must not be God's will.
Seth: So the con- versation we've been having about prayer-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... more generally, and confidence in prayer, is bleeding now into a more practical situation that's happening with regards to sin inside John's church.
David: Oh, right, okay, yes, because, I mean, this would make a lot of sense for people in John's church, because they had these antichrists, these, like, traveling missionaries who came to their church, were proven to not be genuine disciples, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They hated their brother. They did-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They didn't obey the commands, everything we've talked about. Now they've been kicked out, and not only were they not Christians, they're anti-Christians, antichrists.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay, now as we turn our direction and our attention back to the church, to my brothers, my neighbors, the people I share my life with, uh, they kinda sin too.
Seth: Right.
David: They, they ha- they mess up. They kinda-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think I remember the antichrists-
Seth: Said the same thing
David: ... said the same thing about their brother.
Seth: They quoted the same author.
David: Yeah, and it's like, uh, do we kick them out too? Should they go join the antichrists? What do we do with people in our church, people in our lives, our, our s- our brothers, our sisters, both genealogically and spiritually, who are sinning?
Seth: Um, s-
David: What do we do?
Seth: We, we pray for them.
David: Okay.
Seth: I- d- if anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, um, and I'm, uh, I think, I think we've already defined it, but just, like, a sin that's not the same sin as the antichrists.
David: Yeah, I don't think we have defined it. I, so, so I think he talks about the sin that leads to death. What is it? I think it's important for us to just name it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's very clear throughout the whole letter that it must be the denial that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh and died for our sins.
Seth: Who are those that are in darkness?
David: Right.
Seth: The antichrists. Who do those that hate, contrary to the love of God? The antichrists.
David: Yeah. And it's really important, death here doesn't just come out of nowhere, right? It's not like he just, the sin that leads to death just, whoa, death. Where'd that come from?
Seth: Yeah, they've denied the life that could've lived inside them.
David: Right. We just got done talking about eternal life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what do you, how do you get eternal life? Being in Jesus. How do you get death? By not being in Jesus. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's clear that the sin that leads to death is not being in Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is denying Jesus, being an antichrist.
Seth: Refusing to believe that He came by the water and the blood.
David: Right.
Seth: Refusing to believe that He came in the flesh, refusing that He came as a, an atoning sacrifice for our sin.
David: Yep.
Seth: All of these things are the sin-
David: The sins that lead, the sin that leads to death. S- but there are sins that do not lead to death, which is pretty much every other sin.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: And so when you see a brother sinning, you know, not denying Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but sinning.
Seth: Right.
David: What do you do? You pray for them.
Seth: He shall ask, and God will give him life.
David: Here's good news then. If we've said that, if he said that when we pray, we do so according with God's will, and it will be heard, and it will be done, then we know that those who sin but don't deny Jesus, it is God's will-That they be given eternal life.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that they be saved.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that's just good news that it's like, man, that person in my life that just, they're sinning and-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... I don't know what to do. Is it God's wi- You know, it's like-
Seth: It's God's wi-
David: ... it's God's will to save them.
Seth: It's God's will to save them, and if they're already saved, to make them holier.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and can I do a little Greek thing here, which is interesting?
David: Oh, you can always do a Greek thing.
Seth: So verse 16 in, I think, most versions of your Bible read it this way, "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will give him life."
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: But in the Greek, it actually just says, "He."
David: Yes.
Seth: And the reason that's confusing is because just four words before, it says, "He shall ask and he will give him life."
David: Right.
Seth: So it almost makes it sound like, one way to read the Greek is that the person who prays to God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is also the one who will give life to his brother.
David: Right.
Seth: But like, only God can give life, but where does God live?
David: In the brother.
Seth: In the brother.
David: [laughs] That's right.
Seth: So when you pray God's will for your brother who is sinning-
David: You're being Jesus to that person
Seth: ... you're being Je-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Redemptively-
David: Yes
Seth: ... loving that person and is bringing them back into God's light.
David: Which goes back to earlier in John where we talked about, like, when we love our brother, we're being Jesus to them. You know?
Seth: Yes.
David: Like-
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes
David: ... like, it's that... And, and then when you pray for your brother l- that they might be lovingly restored, and you're praying that life would be given to them, that, according to the rest of 1 John, should bolster your confidence that you are in Jesus because you're acting like Jesus trying to redeem your brother. [laughs] Like, it's just this awesome circle.
Seth: It's an awesome circle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So then I, I loved that too, just I felt like that one was more concrete for me-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... than the confidence in p- for the free speech in front of God to pray-
David: Oh, yes, yes
Seth: ... whatever I want. I was like, there's an immediacy to, like, I see a sin in my brother.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I wanna call that out. I don't know what to do. I'm gonna pray about that first, and because Go- the life of God that lives in me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it-
David: I'm gonna pray that that life goes to them
Seth: ... and it will.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That feels really concrete and really exciting in a way that, like, praying just general prayers, that didn't.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So anyway, I was like, I think the more specific you can get there, the better, um.
David: That's really good.
Seth: Uh, so yeah, so that's fun.
David: That is really fun. A- and I think it's, like, really practical too, where it's like, what is your response when you see someone in your, in your life, in your church exposed for sinning?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Judge them? Hold it against them? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or is it to pray for them?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: It should be pray for them
David: ... it is.
Seth: And I don't know if I think about giving myself... It, it's like, do I give myself permission to pray for people? Yes, yes, yes, I do.
David: Right.
Seth: Of course. I just don't think to.
David: Right.
Seth: I just don't think to pray for them first.
David: Yeah, but it's like, that's what Jesus did, right? He saw us sinning, right? And what did he do? Judge us? Hold it against us? No. He came and forgave us-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and gave us his life, literally, by dying on the cross.
Seth: We become the advocate before the Father-
David: That's right
Seth: ... that, um-
David: Jesus is for us
Seth: ... Jesus is for us. And what was so interesting, we have an advocate f- f- if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. In this case-
David: This is what 1 John said earlier, yep
Seth: ... in this case, like, now our brother has an advocate in us.
David: Right.
Seth: I am righteous because of God's l-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... in me, so I can pray as an advocate for him if he sins-
David: Right
Seth: ... and h- and see his confession or repentance.
David: Yeah. You're, we're, we're not saying that you're his savior or anything, but you are acting like Christ.
Seth: You're acting like Christ, and by God in you-
David: In you, there is something powerful that takes place
Seth: ... and, and it's an odd enough union between you and Christ-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that John has intentionally obscured the language.
David: That's right.
Seth: He coulda said-
David: God
Seth: ... God will do it.
David: Right.
Seth: He said, "He will do it."
David: Right.
Seth: And there's double references in the sentence structure.
David: Yep.
Seth: He's intentionally am- making it ambiguous so that you remember that God is in you, and you and him are synonymous in such a sense that when you pray according to God's will, he, you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God, brings life.
David: It's powerful.
Seth: Really-
David: So then, what about the people who commit the sin that leads to death?
Seth: Well, there is a s- now, there is a sin that leads to death.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I do not say that you should pray for that. Now, I wanna say something here.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: He actually doesn't say, "Don't pray for antichrists."
David: Right.
Seth: He says, "Don't pray for the sin that leads to death."
David: Mm, you're right. He j- yeah, it doesn't say, "Do not pray for that person."
Seth: It doesn't say, "Do not pray for that person." It says, "Do not pray for that sin."
David: I mean, it, and it doesn't say, "That sin."
Seth: Or it doesn't say, "Pray for that sin."
David: It just says, "Do not pray for that." Now, that, eki- ekinos-
Seth: Oh
David: ... in the Greek, could be that one.
Seth: Yes.
David: It could be that person.
Seth: That person.
David: It could also be that sin. Uh, so I, I wouldn't wanna make too big of a deal out of this.
Seth: But what I w- what I wanted to say-
David: Mm
Seth: ... John is careful in his language here.
David: Yes.
Seth: He was very careful with his language previously-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to mention the interpersonal connection between our prayers and our brothers. And now he kind of makes it a little bit more ambiguous here.
David: Mm.
Seth: "There's a sin that leads to death, and I don't say you should pray for that." So if we took the hard line stance here, we're supposed to pray for our brothers that we see sinning-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in hopes that they would be reconciled and receive the life of God.
David: Right.
Seth: When we come up against an antichrist, somebody who denies that Jesus is God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... vociferously, continuously, consistently, don't pray for that person.
David: Yeah, and I think it's like, don't pray that that person would be given life. 'Cause I think what we're asking for the s- the sinner-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is, "God, give them life." You know, we're being their advocate, their intercessor, in a sense, right? Where it's like, don't, like, e- either don't take the life away from them, or-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... you know, give them life for the first time. You know, make them more holy or make them holy for the first time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, it would be against God's will to give eternal life to someone who's not in the Son.
Seth: It's impossible.
David: It's impossible.
Seth: Eternal life and Son are synonymous.
David: Exactly right. And so, like, if when you, when you have all that that he just said up in your head, it actually isn't crazy.
Seth: It's, it's kind of a- an impossibility to pray for life for someone who is de- like, to... Man, that's-
David: No, I, it's, it's-
Seth: ... one of the wrong ways to say it too
David: ... it, yeah, it's, but it's... God has said there's eternal life in no one else except the Son. You cannot have eternal life unless you have the Son. You cannot have the Son and not have eternal life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And so to not have the, the Son is to only have death.
Seth: Right.
David: And so to pray that someone who does not have the Son also have eternal life is to pray for something impossibly wrong. You know what I mean?
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, it's kind of like, to put it jokily, it's like the, the old question, like, can God make a stone that He can't... that's so, so big He can't lift it, you know? [laughs] It's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a sense, the, there's only one, and it's to give eternal life to someone who has rejected Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like it's against God's will for that person in that state-
Seth: Right
David: ... to have eternal life.
Seth: And John seems so confident that you can know that.
David: He does, yeah.
Seth: Which, I mean, in one sense makes sense-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... about how clear he's been. Dark, light.
David: Right.
Seth: Hate, love. Obey, disobey.
David: Yep.
Seth: Keep the commandment, doesn't keep the commandment.
David: The whole book has been a test.
Seth: The-
David: Here's the litmus test to know if you're in Christ or not, and if someone's not, and they've, they're an antichrist-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you don't need to pray that that person would have eternal life.
Seth: Yep. Which-
David: Now-
Seth: And-
David: Yeah, go ahead
Seth: ... and I was gonna, I was say, I was gonna... I wanted to add, I don't know if this is helpful, because it's like, okay, do I not pray for my friend that's an atheist?
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And who's just, like, a staunch atheist, like-
David: That's the question I was gonna ask
Seth: ... but I also know, like, a ton of atheists who've been converted, you know?
David: Exactly.
Seth: Like, but I, I wanted to add, like, a little bit more context here. Again, we're also told they're, they're murderers. We're also told that they're teaching. We're also told that they left the church and then came back to infiltrate the church. So it's like there are some lay... This isn't just blanket disbelief in, in the Son of God. It is that, but is it also possible that he's narrowing it down specifically to the antichrist that they're experiencing?
David: I mean, it's, it's definitely possible. I also-
Seth: Especially, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the teaching component-
David: I-
Seth: ... 'cause I feel like the teaching-
David: Yeah. I think we need to figure out what is John telling them to pray for because-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we need to be careful here. He's not saying, "Don't pray that they would come to know Jesus."
Seth: Right.
David: He says, "Don't, don't pray that they would, that God would give them life," right?
Seth: "The sin that leads to death. I did not say that you should pray for death."
David: Verse 16, right, is, "He will ask God-"
Seth: Oh
David: ... "and God will give him life." So if God is giving him life, what did that person ask for? Life. So the... What I'm saying is, like, to pray for this, that God would just de facto give an antichrist life apart from their knowledge of Jesus is to pray for an impossibility. Whoever has the Son has life. Whoever does not have the Son does not have life. You can't pray for that.
Seth: Ah.
David: Don't pray for s- for life to be given outside of Jesus, 'cause it can't be. Instead, what you can pray is that that person would come to know Jesus. There's no need-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to not pray for that.
Seth: So you're saying they'd be considering praying for life outside of Jesus for these people.
David: Yes.
Seth: What would that look like on the ground now? I, I don't know if I've ever considered praying that prayer.
David: It would be, it would be universalism. That's ex- It's, it's, a, a, like, very, like, commonplace that, that, "God, in your compassion, give life to everybody, even those who do not know you," is a very common thing that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... millions of people believe today.
Seth: Hmm.
David: And it's like God says, "Don't pray that prayer. Do not pray that people outside of Jesus would have life, because they are one."
Seth: Because-
David: You can pray that they would come to know Jesus, because in Him is life. But you cannot pray for de facto life outside of Jesus.
Seth: Mm, 'cause life and Jesus are synonymous.
David: Exactly.
Seth: That's right.
David: Which is the point we made earlier.
Seth: Life and Jesus.
David: Yep.
Seth: Interesting. That's, that's a helpful distinction, if not sobering. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's not sobering, but, like, that's helpful, I think, in understanding what he's saying. The temptation consistently has been to separate the good things of God from being with God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like, no, no, the reason you have the good things of God are because you are in God, with God, in God, God is in you.
David: Right.
Seth: You c- there's no hope for life outside of that.
David: Right.
Seth: And the sin that leads to death is denying that it comes from outside Jesus.
David: That's right.
Seth: Outside of God.
David: I can give you eternal life anywhere.
Seth: So you can't pray for life for anyone o- outside of the life of God.
David: Right. You can, you can pray that they would come to know the life source.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That they would come to know Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, I mean, it... 'Cause if you couldn't, it would be inconsistent with other parts of scripture that, like, that God desires all people to be saved.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: It's, uh... So, so do we, even antichrists. But you cannot pray that God would save them without coming to Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That would be to deny Jesus yourself-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... that He is the source of life.
Seth: Okay.
David: Which should be a, I think, a cata- cataclysmic call to us to make sure we are presenting Jesus to the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You cannot give people life or hope without giving them Jesus, without giving them the gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think we wanna do that. There's a benevolent God up there.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And there's many pathways, and it's like, no, there's actually only one.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, it's not a, it's not a turn I was expecting this podcast to take, but, like, I think that's the right one.
David: Hmm.
Seth: It's what John's been encouraging us to meditate on this entire time-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the syn- the synonymity-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of Jesus with light.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus with love.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus with confidence.
David: Confidence, yes.
Seth: Like, Jesus with-
David: Eternal life
Seth: ... eternal life. And those things don't exist apart from Him.
David: That's right.
Seth: And you can't-
David: You can only have them in Jesus, so much so that when you have them, you know you have Jesus. That's been John's whole point.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep. Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: So speaking of knowing, that's the last thing that he does here, right?
Seth: Yeah. So we've moved o- so he has this section about the testimony. He talks about prayer for a beat, and now we're, he kinda wraps up his letter in three, uh-
David: We knows
Seth: ... we know statements. We know everyone who's been born of God does not keep on sinning.
David: It's like, yeah, he spent a lot of time talking about that. [laughs]
Seth: But he who was born of God, so I think he's referring to Jesus there-
David: Oh, yes. It's, yeah, that's debated, but yeah
Seth: ... protects him, protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
David: Yep.
Seth: So it's like, "Okay, guys, wrap it up now."
David: Wrap it up.
Seth: "What are we gonna talk about? Okay, we've been through this. We know that everybody sins, but we have an advocate with the Father. But he who is born of God, the Son of God, Jesus, or even your brother praying on your behalf, protects you, and the evil one cannot touch you."
David: Harm you.
Seth: Harm you.
David: Yeah. Apparently, touch is a bad translation.
Seth: Oh.
David: I di- I didn't know that until today.
Seth: Sorry, ESV, that I'm reading from today. [laughs]
David: [laughs] But yes.
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: We know that when we're in Jesus, we will not continue in, in our sin. We will s- you know, we will fight sin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... stand in the light, and that Jesus will protect us from the evil one because we've overcome the world by our faith.
Seth: Yep.
David: We know that. Yeah, so it's like you can know that when you're in Christ, you will conquer sin more and more, and that Jesus will protect you more and more from sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We know that.
Seth: Yep.
David: Confidence.
Seth: And the evil one, the world, its powers, the Antichrist coming against you.
David: Yep, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life will not overcome you.
Seth: They won't overcome your kids.
David: Mm.
Seth: This is the one, and I mean, maybe our, your kids aren't believers. I know mine probably aren't, [laughs] you know?
David: [laughs] Very young.
Seth: They're very, very young. But, like, I think that's one thing as a parent I've-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I've thought about a lot. Like, I think there is something, I don't wanna get too Presbyterian, but like-
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: ... um, but I think there's something to be said about the family of God and faithful mothers and fathers who love Jesus, and God's love for their children through their faith when they don't have the capacity to fa- believe in God in that way yet.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Does that make sense? Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's a, a totally different topic.
David: Right.
Seth: However, uh, the evil one does not ultimately win against those who believe in Jesus.
David: Right. We know that.
Seth: We know that.
David: Verse 19, "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
Seth: I think he's just setting up his final one-two punch-
David: Okay
Seth: ... here.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we know that if we're from God, we're born of God, and the whole world belongs to the evil one.
David: There's two kingdoms is what he's saying.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We're children of God. The rest of the world is, are children of the evil one. Now, you can pass from one to the other by putting your faith in Jesus, but we know that we live in the kingdom of God, we are born of God, we are God's children, but we are living in occupied territory.
Seth: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in His Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
David: Mm.
Seth: Little children, keep yourself from false gods.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think that's the best way to translate that last line. It's like there's only one God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's only one mediator between God and man. There's only one advocate. There's only one light.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's only one love. There's only one atoning sacrifice. Little children, keep yourself from all false versions.
David: Right. Yeah, it's, a, a lot of commentators and a lot of people, I think, when they read the end of 1 John, find that last verse, verse 21, surprising.
Seth: Little-
David: Keep yourself from idols?
Seth: Where do idols come from all of a sudden?
David: Keep yourself from false, what in the world? A- and it's not like, "I bid you farewell. I hope, I hope and pray that you will continue on." Like, nope, keep yourself from idols. Bye.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Mic drop. But it's like how could this letter end any other way?
Seth: Right.
David: It's been his point the whole time. The very beginning of the letter was, "This is who we have seen and touched and heard from. It's Jesus. It's no one else. Life is found in no one else. It's only Him." S- and, like, so keep yourself from any version of what people wanna say about Jesus or any other paths to eternal life other than what the testimony of the three witnesses that you've heard from.
Seth: You could probably, you, I mean, that gets to the emotive heart of it. Keep yourself from Antichrists.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's, that's the way it ends.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think it's interesting, he harps so much about loving God and loving your neighbor, which we've talked about is the summary of the Ten Commandments.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And how belief in God is, like, how do we know we're in Him? By believing in God.
David: Right.
Seth: And the very first commandment f- on Mount Sinai is to believe in God and to not keep idols.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I think here it's interesting, like, He is the true God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus is the true God. In Him is eternal life, commandment 1A, commandment 1B, and don't have false idols.
David: Right.
Seth: That's like, it's, it's his way of going all the way back to the beginning of Israel's history.
David: It's so true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, and it's like that was the sin of Israel throughout their entire history, was idolatry. What they struggled with was false gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's what always tanked them, and it's like, it's no different today.
Seth: No. False, false gods are just different ways.
David: Yeah. Any- anybody who says like, "Hey, here's how you can have life. Here's what's true. Here's what's good. Here's what's loving." And it's like, no, only define all of those things one way, Jesus, who was the Christ, who died for us. Like, He defines all that. He's the center of reality.
Seth: And if one of my commentators is convinced that these Secessionists are-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a form of Judaizers-
David: Right
Seth: ... they were people who at one time thought that Jesus might be the Messiah, but then were convinced He's the false Messiah. Um, but think about in that context, if he's reappropriating the Ten Commandments-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... he's saying, "No, the true savior of Israel-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is Jesus."
David: That's right.
Seth: Love Him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Love Jesus. Keep His commands.
David: Right.
Seth: And have no other false gods except Him.
David: Yeah, another way to-
Seth: Or have no other fa- gods except Him
David: ... another way to put that against Judaizers, which is kind of ironic and strange, is, uh, they're, they're monotheists, right?
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: So no one is God but God, which is why they had such a problem of having God as a person, Jesus, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm, that He could come in the flesh.
David: That He come in the flesh and be visible. No, you cannot make a visible representation of God. That's an idol.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, no, to have any image of God other than Jesus is an idol.
Seth: Mm.
David: And it's like, wait, what? Like, you could imagine that just messing with these potential Judaizers' brains-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of just like-
Seth: But like-
David: ... but the problem is Jesus, right?
Seth: Right, right. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs] Uh, the problem is He did come in the flesh. It's like, no, the problem is you don't believe that He came in the flesh, that He doesn't have an image anymore.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's just, like, really interesting. Uh-
Seth: And that's the book of 1 John.
David: Yeah, that's the book of 1 John. Uh, I've loved this book, uh, so much. Um, we will, we will next week jump into 2 John and 3 John-
Seth: Yep
David: ... in one episode.
Seth: That's right.
David: Uh, the two shortest books in the New Testament.
Seth: Which is always g- always great.
David: Always, always great.
Seth: Always great when your Bible reading plan [laughs] comes across second and third John.
David: You're like, "Whoo, crushing it. Of course."
Seth: I read, I read two books of the Bible today.
David: Normally, you have to read, like, all of 1 through 3 John in a day, but in our Bible reading plan, you will only read one-
Seth: There you go
David: ... 14 verse chapter. [laughs] So, uh, we'll, we'll talk about both of those, which are really interesting developments at John's church. You know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it's like, how do you continue to live in a church where itinerant mina- uh, missionaries came through and messed so much up? You know, now what happens when other itinant- itinerant missionaries come through? What do you do with them? Do we just not entertain them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause they messed everything up? That's what John's gonna talk about next, which is really fun. So thank you guys for listening, and, uh-
Seth: Thank you so much
David: ... we will see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
