Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Seth, how are you today?
Seth: I'm doing great.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, we are officially in our new podcast studio.
David: We are. Yeah, we just moved offices. We're in the same little office park that we have been in, which is, like, a center for non-profits.
Seth: Yep.
David: So we have a super discounted rent here, which is amazing, but we moved to a bigger-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... suite, which has its own room for the podcast.
Seth: Last time, our podcast room was our conference room, which was also our devo set room, which was also our meeting room.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, and we couldn't run the AC while we were podcasting.
David: Yep. Yeah, the AC was really loud in that room, and so-
Seth: We are
David: ... we had to turn it off.
Seth: We-
David: But now you're wearing a jacket-
Seth: I'm wearing a jacket
David: ... and it's 90 degrees outside.
Seth: I am [laughs] I'm reborn.
David: Reborn-
Seth: Reborn
David: ... to podcasting.
Seth: The podcast is so reborn.
David: That's true. Um, but we are stepping into the shortest book we've ever podcasted.
Seth: 2 John.
David: 2 John. [laughs]
Seth: 2 John.
David: 2, 2 John. [laughs]
Seth: 2 John.
David: Uh, yes.
Seth: The second letter of John to his community.
David: Yes, um, that we have.
Seth: That we have.
David: Yes.
Seth: 'Cause there's probably a fourth-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... floating around
David: At least, yeah, at least one other that-
Seth: Uh
David: ... we'll talk about probably in-
Seth: In 3 John
David: ... 3 John.
Seth: In 3 John.
David: Yeah. But yes, 2 John is really interesting. We'll talk about all the details of it, but maybe a reason why you should care-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... about listening-
Seth: Why should I care about 2 John, David?
David: ... to this podcast, uh, is he talks about, um, like, the truth of Christianity.
Seth: Mm.
David: And sometimes, despite, I think even my own, like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... predilections and, uh, is, like, sometimes truth must be defended by hard boundaries.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, so much so that, like, you shouldn't even be hospitable to certain people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... based on their, um, uh, relationship with the truth of, about Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'm like, that's very offensive-
Seth: And-
David: ... today especially
Seth: ... really kind of uniquely, like, John calls that loving.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, we're supposed to walk in truth and love-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... something that Jesus talked about, but, like, policing boundaries is also a way to love.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and so that's what's kinda on the line in the Book of John.
David: Yeah. So that's really interesting.
Seth: In 2 John.
David: Yeah. So, um, h- uh, I mean, so we, we've, we've kind of come from 1 John. Let's set the stage here.
Seth: Uh, I, the best way I thought about 2 John, well, so 1 John-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... was written to, like, John's entire apostolic community, it feels like. It's wr- definitely written to churches with similar issues-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but there's a universality to it.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, there's no introduction. There's no calling to a specific church-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or the mention of particular names, and there was no official greeting. It just began.
David: Right.
Seth: He was-
David: And there was no, and there was no ending.
Seth: And there was no ending.
David: It was just like, "Keep yourself from idols."
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, it's like there, there is, like, a universality or a, a generality to John's first letter-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that John breaks with here in 2 John and becomes more specific. And he says, "To the elder, to the elect lady and her children."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he ends his letter by saying, "And this elect lady greets you."
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's seen, elect lady is just John's way of referring to a church.
David: A church.
Seth: It's like this is the elect lady, the elect-
David: The bride of Christ
Seth: ... the bride of Christ and her children, the members of that church.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and I think that's really interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He, like, he grows in specificity in the second letter.
David: Yeah, and he also uses, he, I mean, so he kinda uses a, a, a Christian-y code word for the church, the elect lady, and then he use, he uses one for himself, too. He doesn't say, "John to the church in"-
Seth: Right
David: ... "so and so, Ephesus."
Seth: He calls himself the elder.
David: He calls him- the elder.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which is, um, not just a reference maybe to his age, but also to his position in the church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That he is positionally, a- a- apostolically-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, you know-
Seth: Well, and I was gonna-
David: ... over this church
Seth: ... and I was gonna say, interestingly, he pulls on his apostolic authority in the first letter.
David: Mm.
Seth: But now he's pulling on his authority as an elder here.
David: Right.
Seth: Maybe s- this is a significant enough difference that some scholars think it's written by a different person.
David: A different person.
Seth: I don't think so.
David: No.
Seth: However, it is interesting that he refers to himself differently and the church he's addressing differently than he did in the first letter.
David: Yes.
Seth: And in 3 John, he'll get even more specific, and it's directed to an individual person.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and which I think is, the way that I always think about 2 John is, like, it's like a booster shot.
David: A booster shot. [laughs]
Seth: He, like, in 1 John, he spends five chapters-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... unpacking this, this very similar concept, the deceivers, the antichrist, truth, love, being born of God, teaching the truth-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... living in the truth, obeying the commandments. Take five chapters to unpack that in 1 John. In 2 John, it is in 13 verses.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's, I, I was like, this is kind of, feels like a booster shot.
David: Yeah, he even uses a lot of the same themes.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he just throws them all in right next to each other. So to help us get in this then, you mentioned, um, he's kind of building on 1 John.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And this is the booster shot, so it has similar, um-
Seth: Yep
David: ... RNA particles in it.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: But, [laughs] but it's-
Seth: RNA
David: ... it's a new, it's a new, there's a new variant threat.
Seth: There is.
David: There's a, the delta variant. [laughs]
Seth: The delta variant of 2 John is-
David: We're dating this podcast.
Seth: Uh-
David: But yes, uh, so set up for me just really quickly, as quick as you can, the problem of 1 John that is going to lead into some of these other problems that is, that are addressed in 2 John.
Seth: Yeah, so 1 John has kind, as part of its main concern, this group of people John calls the deceivers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the false prophets, or the antichrist. They are a group of people within the church, uh-Potentially other pastors who were teaching a gospel contrary to the apostolic one.
David: Namely what?
Seth: That Jesus did not come in the flesh-
David: Right
Seth: ... and that Jesus did not die on the cross.
David: Right.
Seth: He did not come by water and blood.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, so, like, that's kind of the central concern. And-
David: That Jesus is not God and man.
Seth: That's, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's, that was a main concern of it.
David: Totally.
Seth: And what that ended up doing to John's church was it eroded their confidence in both their position in God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and God's view of them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So a lot of the letter of 1 John is written with the assurance of his people in mind. How can I comfort and encourage my people who feel attacked by these people and are unsure of where they stand with God? But also as, like, giving them a litmus test to know how to deal and when they come into contact with an antichrist.
David: Right. It's like a, it's a, it's, it's, it's like a five chapter test, where it's like you can give yourself this test and any other teacher who comes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to your church, you can give them this test.
Seth: Yep.
David: And you'll know whether they are in Christ or if they are antichrist.
Seth: That's right.
David: And, um, and so yeah, that, that's really interesting. So we're dealing with false teachers who were denying the divinity of Jesus, and w- and how to identify them and what to do with them.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and so w- that, that really sets up an interesting thing here for 2 John, which I think we have to get into a little bit of the first century mindset to understand-
Seth: Okay
David: ... what's happening. Because, uh, because of the, the system of Roman roads that have been built in this time, and because of the widespread peace that was across the land because of the Pax Romana, and because of a common language of Koine Greek, there was this widespread travel boom. Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we, we take travel for granted today.
Seth: Right.
David: We can hop in a car and drive across the country.
Seth: I don't even have to leave to be communicate. I, I can go on Zoom, and I can be in New York-
David: Right
Seth: ... and Seattle at the same time.
David: Exactly right. Not only that, not only is travel easier, there's, there's ro- there's, like, paved roads and automobiles and planes and trains, you know? Like-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... there's also, uh, like, travel industry, right?
Seth: Yep.
David: There are hotels.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Airbnb, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Like, there are places to stay when you travel.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um, there is common currency, right? You can just grab your Amex card-
Seth: And then go wherever
David: ... and go for it. No foreign transaction fees, you know? It's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... there, there is v- there's a whole industry now built around making travel easier and making it an independent exercise.
Seth: And my guess is that was not true [laughs] in the first-
David: That was not true of that day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So as travel is booming and becoming easy, uh, there are a whole new set of societal issues that come up-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as people from other cities come, are coming through your city, and what do you do with those people? Because there we- there were not hotels.
Seth: Right.
David: There were, there were these things called inns.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But they were houses of ill repute.
Seth: Yeah. And you also have an interesting, I think what you're driving at here, too, is that you have such an emphasis on hospitality throughout Jewish culture.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and-
David: And yeah, and just hospitality was a big deal in those days.
Seth: And-
David: It was honor, shame
Seth: ... honor, shame, and even within scripture.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Hospitality, uh, being kind to your neighbor, loving your neighbor as yourself, is one of Jesus' most famous, uh, parables-
David: Right
Seth: ... about the Samaritan who's traveling on a road from one place to another. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, the idea of helping travelers is kind of like part and parcel of the Christian message.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so I think that what, that what you're driving at here is the central tension is, like, what happens when an antichrist comes to town?
David: Right.
Seth: What happens when you have somebody who walks into town, who claims to be a part of the apostolic community, who you would generally be inclined by both your culture and by your new faith to invite them into your church and life? How do you know when to say no to people like that?
David: That's right, because, um, you know, you, you have the, you have a Christian, you know, a, a professing Christian comes into your town. They are not going to stay at an inn, you know, that's rapacious and flea-infested, according to a quote from a [laughs] historian.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, but instead they're going to look for other Christians. They also don't wanna stay in houses with idols in them. Like, there's all this stuff that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Christians are also trying to abstain from certain parts and sectors of society that are i- uh, that are, you know, full of idolatry or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... sexual immorality. And so they're going to come to and look for other Christians in that city, and they're going to assume upon their hospitality.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yep.
David: And as a Christian, you should help them.
Seth: Yep.
David: Like you talked about, like, it's part-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and parcel of being a Christian is being-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... hospitable. Uh, and so yeah, but, but then what happens when that hospitality is being abused, and the network of hospitable churches around, um, this whole, like, Asia Minor, Asia Minor, Asia Minor area is being exploited by false prophets and false teachers-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to spread their message?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, they're using the hospitality of churches as hubs to spread a false gospel.
Seth: Yeah, here's the way he says it in verse seven. "For many deceivers have gone out into the world." They're traveling using the Appian Way.
David: Yes.
Seth: "Those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is a deceiver and the antichrist." And if you wanna talk more, listen to more about the antichrist and why we believe it's, there's dozens of antichrists who are false pastors, just go listen to our p- previous podcast.
David: Yeah, we talked about that at length.
Seth: At length. "Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward." And I think, I wanna s- pause there 'cause I think what he's saying is, like, the danger in inviting an antichrist into your congregation is that you would accept an anti-gospel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the full reward is eternal life and resurrection with Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: And if you, there is a risk of letting an antichrist into your congregation and leading people astray.To a false gospel. Don't do that.
David: Right.
Seth: Be worried about that.
David: Yes.
Seth: "So everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has... But whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. Now, if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting. Whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."
David: Mm. S- that's interesting.
Seth: The- and that's the... And that's kind of the way he ends it, and he has a, a short greeting.
David: So what you're saying is-
Seth: A farewell
David: ... so there's, there's several things happening here. One, y- if you accept an antichrist and are hospitable to an antichrist, someone who's denying that Jesus was both God and man, but not only denying it, but teaching it. I think we need to talk about that difference.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That there's a difference between somebody who holds a, an antichrist belief and someone who is actively teaching and promoting an antichrist belief.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: And yes, and I think specifically... So this was a, growing up, this was a proof text for me of why you shouldn't talk to a Jehovah's Witness.
David: Right.
Seth: Or not talk to a Mormon if-
David: People use this verse to make that point
Seth: ... if they knock on your door. I don't think that's what it's talking about here.
David: No.
Seth: When-
David: Je- yeah, Jesus was hospitable to people with false beliefs.
Seth: Yes. And I think the hospitality that we're talking about here isn't the type of hospitality that greets somebody into your home, it's the hospitality a church extends to an itinerant pastor or preacher-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... and gives them authority in their congregation.
David: Yes.
Seth: The house that he's talking about is the church.
David: Yeah, the elect lady's house.
Seth: And specifically the elect lady and her children's house.
David: Mm.
Seth: John is using familial household language to refer to the household of God, the church, the body of Christ. Like he's talk- he's using family household language to talk about his church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So the injunction here, the, the, uh, the hospitality principle, the extension from First John that's h- his unique contribution here is that don't put an antichrist in your pulpit.
David: [laughs] Yes.
Seth: That's, that's the, what he's saying.
David: Even itinerantly. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes, absolutely. Uh, because as we were talking about earlier, there are, like, at least three dangers, see if I can remember them all. Uh, one you mentioned was the spreading of false teaching internally at your church, the threat of-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, the, the idea of Jesus not being God-
Seth: Yep. You-
David: ... seeping around your church.
Seth: The, yes. The, so the threat of false teaching.
David: Yes.
Seth: He says in verse seven, "Losing what we have ma- worked for-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that you may win a full reward." So, like, the fidelity of the faithfulness of this people, the apostles-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... worked to create a faithful community, and these people can erode that.
David: Yeah, and then there's the, the one about, like, but n-not, it's not only about eroding faith and spreading false teaching internally, it's also if you are being hospitable-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to an antichrist preacher in your local church-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you are actually taking part-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in that wicked deed.
Seth: Yeah, you become complicit in the antichrist's deceit and wickedness.
David: Yeah. We'll talk about it next week in 3 John, but they talk about how financially supporting good preachers-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... is participating in their good work.
Seth: That's right.
David: In the same way here in 2 John, he's saying that to be hospitable to false teachers is to prop up their work and be a, and be part of disseminating it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, I mean, that's really intense.
Seth: And w- what this does for me... So, I mean, this is a pretty imminently practical thing.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's speaking presumably to the church at large, but also the leaders of this community. They wanna practice hospitality towards these itinerant p-preachers who are claiming to be a part of the apostolic tradition, but have, like, you know, a new spin on the gospel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that they wanna t- wanna, wanna share. And they're like, "Sure, come on. We'll extend h-hospitality to you." Um, this doesn't feel... But at the, and as soon as that person though gets up on stage and says something ab- aberrant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he says, "I don't believe Jesus came in the flesh."
David: [laughs]
Seth: I feel like it's pretty obvious.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, okay, that person can't preach anymore.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Like, so I'm like, I'm trying to have a, I'm having a hard time, like, understanding the need to write this or, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the urgency behind it. Like, isn't it obvious when an antichrist comes preaching a false gospel, or is it not? It was, was there s- you know what I mean? Like, what's the urgency here? What's the, besides cultural, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... forces that would wanna p- make you put a pastor on a pulpit, what's happening here?
David: Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is, I think you're right, they probably did not come in peddling bold-faced lies, you know, where they were just like, "Jesus did not, is not God." They didn't say that.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: You know? But, um, as 1 John talked about, um, these are, like, children of the devil who have been lying from the beginning.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They are expert deceivers, you know? And as you're hospitable to them over time, it's not, uh, that they drop the hammer all at once, but there's a slow-
Seth: Mm
David: ... almost imperceptible erosion.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so I think it's, we need to-
Seth: It's like sheep among wolves.
David: Yeah, exactly right.
Seth: It's like wolves disguise themselves as sheep.
David: This moment of false teachers using the Appian Way to go spread false doctrine about Jesus all around the early church was predicted multiple times by Jesus, by Peter, by Paul-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in their letters. Like, this was meant to happen, and Paul, I think it was Paul who called them, "Watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing." That's exactly what's happening here. This was expected to happen. Um, and so I, I think we have to understand that it's probably a little bit more nuanced than that. Uh, one way to th- to, like s-
Seth: Nuanced than what I, what I said, like-
David: Yeah, that we're just like, "Jesus is not God."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, just kinda, like, drops the hammer. An interesting way to kinda get a peek at this is, like, this was, like, a huge problem in the early church, so much so that there is an, a manual for early church life, uh, that was probably written by the end of the first century called the-
Seth: The Didache?
David: ... the Didache.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and let me read you, I think it's four verses from-
Seth: Okay
David: ... the Didache. So this is, uh, chapter 11 verse four through seven. This is not scripture, [laughs] everybody.
Seth: It's just like a-
David: This is just like a manual that early church leaders wrote.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.Let every apostle who cometh unto you be received as the Lord. So it's like when you have a traveling apostle come-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... receive him as you would Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Like, treat him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because whatever you do to the least of these, you've done to him.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, verse five, "He will remain one day, and if necessary, a second, but if he remains three days, he is a false prophet."
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs] So, uh, verse six, "And let the apostle when departing take nothing but bread until he arrive at his resting place, but if he asks for money, he is a false prophet." Verse seven-
Seth: So
David: ... "And ye shall not tempt or dispute with any prophet who speaketh in the spirit, for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven." He even references the unforgivable sin that both Jesus-
Seth: Wow
David: ... and 1 John referenced about traveling, like, well, for at least-
Seth: Wow
David: ... 1 John, about traveling preachers.
Seth: That definitely sounds like some, like, sort of like original denominational rules-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about itinerant pastors. Like-
David: That's, that's how people see the Didache, yeah
Seth: ... in this, in this denomination, we don't send apostles out who will stay there for more than two days.
David: That's right.
Seth: Third person, they're not from us.
David: They're not from us.
Seth: Ask for money, not from us.
David: Exactly, 'cause they couldn't call you-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... and go like, "Hey, is this person from you?" It's like, "Oh, you should know because our kind of people stay for two days max."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "They don't ask for any money, and they only take bread with them when they leave."
Seth: Interesting.
David: And then it's like, what's also just intense is just this idea, we're obviously not unpacking this.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: But it is just interesting where it's like if they start speaking false words, claiming it's from the Spirit, don't even argue with them be- like, 'cause they've committed the unforgivable sin. [laughs] It's just like-
Seth: Oh, just, just [laughs]
David: ... just kick them out. It's like, whoa, dude.
Seth: Just walk up on stage, silent, with your security guards and push them out.
David: Bye. [laughs] It's so intense.
Seth: One of the things that, the idea th- th- that adds some color to this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... um, it's like, you know, Paul and Jesus were not the first people to talk about wolves in sheep's clothing.
David: Mm.
Seth: The first wolf in sheep's clothing was the serpent in the garden.
David: Totally.
Seth: And you had an elect lady, Eve-
David: Yes, Eve
Seth: ... being deceived-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by somebody who had a different gospel.
David: Mm.
Seth: "You won't surely die."
David: Right.
Seth: "There's another way to eternal life. You can know both good and evil." And Adam, the supposed elder, you know, like, the, the, the leadership figure or whatever, the husband, the loving husband, did not protect his bride from the deception of the evil one.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so I, I'm also just thinking about the way that cosmically, or like, um, since the beginning of human history, the idea of a wolf in sheep's clothing coming to the chosen women of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and them being unprotected by their spouse is the con- is a constant threat throughout scripture. And even John, in his revelation, will describe the entire history of God's people as a woman trying to give birth with a dragon, like, crouched at her hips, ready to devour the child.
David: Right.
Seth: The idea of a deceiver robbing the elect lady of truth and life is the story of scripture.
David: That's right. Yep.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah, and I, I'm, and, I mean, it's really good. And I'm like, I think one of the things that we have to understand here that is so important to 2 John is the only way to identify, um, a antichrist, at least if we're gonna use 2 John's-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... tests, 'cause 1 John also has, like, moral tests.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, do they love their brother?
Seth: Yep.
David: You know, which is really interesting. Uh, but here it's like, if we know the truth, it's like we have to n- hold fast to the truth that we've had from the beginning-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in order to identify antichrists. Um, and um, I'm just... I'll get a little real here.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, uh, it's a little, it's personal to me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: After, you know, luckily I don't really have to do it anymore, but after 10 years of traveling and speaking for a living-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... I was, I was an itinerant preacher.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, this was my job, was to travel-
Seth: Did you ever stay for three days?
David: I did [laughs] and I, and I got money for it.
Seth: False. [laughs]
David: No, and I got money for it. And so, you know what I mean? Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... I've been, like, wrestling with this.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: I, um, now we'll learn in 3 John that it's right to pay and provide for true teachers.
Seth: As you said, the Didache is not scripture-
David: Right
Seth: ... but it was a denomination's rules for their people.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, uh, I do think it's interesting to put the tests of 2 John and the warnings of 2 John up against much of the modern way that itinerant, the, the, the industry of itinerant preachers-
Seth: Mm
David: ... operates.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, there are countless Christian authors, Christian speakers who come in and they bring words that sound-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... really good, but there is a deception underneath them. And if you, and you, you hear them when they're, like, cornered on podcasts or in Q&As-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to answer really simple doctrinal questions about who is Jesus, what did he accomplish on the cross, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they will not answer them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... faithfully.
Seth: Mm.
David: They won't hold up the truth that we've had from the beginning.
Seth: Mm.
David: And I think that we might be committing some of the sins and falling prey to some of these-
Seth: Ah
David: ... these issues that 2 John's trying to warn us of because the highest level of hospitality is given to some of these false teachers.
Seth: Interesting.
David: And so it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's, it's really intense. I'm not, I, I-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... and, and this is what, I think this is why it's important too, is I wanted to say, I almost said this. I was like, I wanted to say, "I'm not trying to sound judgmental."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But I am.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And I think 2 John is calling us to be not judgmental in this, in the pejorative sense, where you're just-
Seth: Discerning
David: ... but discerning.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We must be discerning.
Seth: Too much is on the line. We could find ourselves being party to the wicked deeds-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of the antichrists.
David: And I think to your, to, to your broader point here, the idea of greeting somebody or giving somebody teaching authority in your church-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we've just outsourced as a culture to things like podcasts and YouTube channels-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which of we are one of [laughs]
Seth: We are one of those. [laughs]
David: But, like, I think there is... I think we should go back and talk about the way this relates to pastors and their congregations.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But broadly, for the general person, like, you can greet and grant authority in your house to false teachers very easily, uh, because of the way the internet works.
Seth: Oh, yeah. Totally.
David: Like, like you can do that.
Seth: The new Appian Way.
David: The new Appian Way of the internet. Like, we even talk about the way we wanna subvert that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as, as an organization. But, um, yeah, so, like, there's, there is a warning here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to be discerning.
Seth: And I think it's helpful to modernize the Appian Way a little bit here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Where it's like, okay, think about it when it comes to traveling celebrity preachers and authors, um, that you see at a conference-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... put on by a church or denomination. Like, are they a false teacher?
David: Yeah.
Seth: How much hospitality has been shown them? You know, like, I made my living for many years off of that hospitality.
David: Right.
Seth: I don't think I was wrong to do that.
David: Mm-mm.
Seth: Paul says that, you know, uh, those who, uh, preach the gospel should make their living by the gospel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know, we're gonna learn in 3 John that it's okay to support those kinds of people.
David: The Appian Way isn't a bad thing. That's how we got Paul's letters.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: But if they're a false teacher, something is happening-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that, that's wrong. So I think it's helpful to modernize it there. I think it's helpful to modernize it with the internet.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And thinking about the fact that there is a new Appian Way straight onto our phones, and we, almost as individuals, as elect ladies, [laughs] as, you know, children of the elect lady, we need to be careful-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who we allow to have a voice-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on the pulpit of our phones.
David: Yes. That's exactly right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think... And then obvi- the, the obvious parallel is to leaders of churches-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who are, have an opportunity frequently to pedestal anybody, whether they show their video in, in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... during service-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or they invite that person to come speak. Like, they are-
Seth: Or put their book in the bookstore
David: ... or put their book in the bookstore. There are ways that we can give authority-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to people that don't, that preach against the gospel of Jesus. Um, okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why is that good news?
Seth: Yeah, I was gonna ask you the same question. [laughs]
David: [laughs] You got to, beat me.
Seth: Uh, why is it good news-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that there are boundaries on what we should listen to and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who we should platform?
David: Well, I think there's a simple answer, and then we'll, we'll try to get to the more complex one.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause there, there's a... The simple answer is because it's protecting the good news.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That, that we believe the news that Jesus is God in the flesh, who died for our sins as a propitiation, to use-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 1 John's language-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is such good news that it deserves to be protected.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, why, why is 2 John good news? It's because it protects the good news.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, I think, I think we can often think that w- m- uh, refusing to show hospitality to a false teacher, or putting up a wall and saying-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, "No, you may not speak here."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "You are not of us."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, I think can feel hateful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And intolerant.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But John, uh, here actually calls it loving. And so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, it's good news because we're actually loving our congregation, our family, ourself, our community-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and anyone else whom that false teacher might damage better because we are protecting the purity of the good news that Jesus is God who died in the flesh for our sins.
Seth: Right. It's the way we obeyed the commandment in, that 1 John ended with. "Little children, keep yourself from idols."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Keep yourself from false conceptions of the good news.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: False ways to attain eternal life. There is only one way, and he wants to give that to you. He wants to give you your full reward, um, and every other way will not provide it.
David: Yeah. And, uh, Alfred Plummer, a commentarian, he said this, that I thought was really interesting. Uh, and it's kind of why-
Seth: Is that the way you say it, commentarian?
David: A commentarian?
Seth: What is it?
David: A commentator.
Seth: Commentator?
David: Yeah, I don't know.
Seth: I don't know. [laughs]
David: Uh, but he said, "Charity has its limits. It must not be shown to one man in such a way as to do grievous harm to others."
Seth: Mm.
David: Showing hospitality, charity, to one false teacher does grievous harm to others. So how do you love your neighbor? How do you love those others?
Seth: Ah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You don't show charity to the one man who wants to harm them through false teaching.
Seth: And that's good. That's the way, actually, John rolls into this whole conversation about false, false teachers in-
David: Mm
Seth: ... 2 John 5. "And now I ask you, dear lady, not as though I was writing you a new commandment, but the one that we've had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments. And this is the commandments, just as you heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it, because many deceivers have gone out in the world." John front loads his whole conversation about barring positions of authority in your church with the command to love one another and to obey Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, this is a direct, there is a direct line between protecting your flock-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... protecting your own soul from false teachers, and obeying the commands to love yourself and to love your neighbors.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, it's why elders were also called shepherds.
Seth: That's right.
David: Shepherds protect their flock from wolves.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, that's just what they do.
Seth: Right. Yep.
David: Um, there's also... I mean, there's also some, some good news, too, in, um, the idea here he mentions, "so that you might have your full reward."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it's like, there is a full reward in just believing the simple truth of the gospel, you know? And, like, that is something to hold fast to. Like, to protect.
Seth: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
David: Um, I'm just, now I'm just going through my notes here and just noticing interesting things.
Seth: Well, yeah, well, the full reward, what is that?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the gift of the Father's power-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the Son's presence. That's, that's only given to people who embrace the true apostolic gospel. It-... doing what it commands.
David: Oh.
Seth: Well, like we talked so at length about the fact that Jesus lives inside of us, empowering us. Whatever we pray according to God's will will happen-
David: Right
Seth: ... and we will receive it from God. All that is part of the full reward of being in Christ, not to mention resurrection from the spiritual dead-
David: Mm
Seth: ... resurrection from the physical dead, and then life with God on Earth forever. Like, all that's on the line.
David: Yeah. Um, yeah. That's really good. It's worth protecting.
Seth: It's worth protecting.
David: Yeah. Um, other just little things that I noticed here, uh, is there's a dif- like, it's like I think it's easy to read this and talk about it and think about the antichrists, uh, the deceivers as an anomaly. But the language of 2 John suggests that they are prevalent.
Seth: Mm.
David: Uh, so you have, "I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth."
Seth: Mm.
David: Some. You get to the antichrists, verse 7, "For many deceivers have gone out."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like it's the some versus the many.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, this, J- Jesus taught a parable like this, you know, that like it's, it's a narrow road-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that few find themselves on. Uh, and it's just like, I think we need... I'm not saying that every... So I, I mean, there must be an antichrist behind every door, you know? That's not what I'm necessarily saying.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: What I am saying is the problem is more prevalent than we want to admit.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Um-
David: And so I found that interesting.
Seth: Here's... I wanna go back. I f- I think that's interesting as well. I wanna go back to something, the, the idea of the historic battle, the cosmic battle-
David: Oh, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... of antichrist stretching all the way back to the garden.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, and how j- how does, how will Jesus do it for us?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, we can do it by protecting our borders. All the way back in the garden, over a meal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... over hospitality, over eating fruit, the, the serpent offer- the deceiver, the antichrist offers the woman a different gospel.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, they share that food, and the rest of history is defined by being deceived and led away and led astray by idols.
David: Yeah.
Seth: All of Israel's history.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Other gods.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Other idols, other nations, other political parties, whatever it was-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like there's always something that drew people away from the true, the truth of God's salvation found in God himself and his coming Son and coming King.
David: Yes, always.
Seth: As soon as the coming King comes-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus, there are new idols, new teachers, new deceivers, new antichrists repeating the Garden of Eden narrative.
David: Ah.
Seth: We're still in that same moment. We're still in a moment that Israel's always experienced. False idols are everywhere-
David: Yep
Seth: ... trying to get us to not believe the truth, that God has come, He is King, He is ruling, and He will save.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And at the end of history, the dragon is still crouching at the hips-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the pregnant elect lady.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what will God do? He will crush the head of the serpent.
David: Right.
Seth: He will-
David: He will slay the dragon.
Seth: He will slay the dragon.
David: And save the woman.
Seth: The end of history is that the antichrists lose.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The deception is gone, and all that is left is truth.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is how John opens his letter here. Like w- um, who, I love you in truth, and not only I but also everybody else who knows the truth-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Truth will abide forever.
David: Yeah. That's really good news-
Seth: It is
David: ... is that there will, there will come a time when Jesus defeats the deceiver, uh, so much so that there is no more deception. There's only truth. I'm, I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 13 where it says, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then we shall see face to face."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like now it's, it's hard to mine out what's absolutely right, absolute truth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, it can be difficult-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in a world of grays and deception and lies-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to be like, what's actually true, you know? Ethicists, [laughs] you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like philosophers scratch their heads forever trying to think about... So do theologians for that matter. And it's good news to think that there will come a day when we will see plainly what is true.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we will know if anything is false.
Seth: Yeah.
David: With... And it, it can, it could not possibly deceive us.
Seth: There will be no lies-
David: Right
Seth: ... when Jesus comes.
David: That is amazing.
Seth: Which it's like so much of my general day is spent, how much of this is true?
David: Mm.
Seth: Is that true? Is that a trustworthy news source? Is that?
David: Right.
Seth: Can I trust his motives? C- can I trust her motives? Does my wife really understand me?
David: Yeah. Can I even trust my own motives when reading 2 John-
Seth: Right
David: ... to read it plainly without my own lenses on it?
Seth: Right. Can I trust this podcast? Uh, does Seth and David really know what they're talking about?
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Like, I won't have to worry about that one day.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, because truth will win.
David: Yeah. It's really, it's really interesting to think about the gospel turn of, um, Jesus beating the lies-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of the serpent.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That, that's been the problem from the beginning. It was the first sin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was believing a lie.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like that's still happening in 2 John. It's still happening today.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? But there, there will come a time where I won't have to go to Barnes & Noble and be like, "Which books are antichrist-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and which books are cr- Christ centered?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, everything will be Christ centered, [laughs] you know? Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... nothing will be anti-Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh, that's really good news. Um-
Seth: I've got one last final-
David: Okay. Yeah
Seth: ... mini thing here. Um-
David: Good luck beating that last one, but yeah.
Seth: Uh, it won't beat that last one.
David: We're gonna, we're gonna end on a down note. [laughs]
Seth: Uh, 2 John 12.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Though I have much to write to you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I would rather not use p- paper and ink. Instead, I hope to come to you and talk face to face."
David: Yeah, and he, he ends this and 3 John the same way.
Seth: He does.
David: Right.
Seth: And what I thought was really interesting about that is that's the way that God describes his own coming at the end of time.
David: That I, you'll see me face to face?
Seth: You'll see me face to face.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's the hope, uh, that's the eschatological hope-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of humanity, that one day we'll see truth face to face. We'll see God face to face. It won't be mediated-
David: By pa- by paper and pen
Seth: ... by paper and pen.
David: The Bible. [laughs]
Seth: The, the Bible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But we'll be fulfilled by seeing God face to face-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Jesus.
David: That's, that's good news.
Seth: I thought that was good news too.
David: I like that.
Seth: And even thinking about the way that God being in us in such a way that when we pray, God works through us, and we become the re-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the way God redeems the world, I wonder if, like, John is even like, "When I come, I will bring God to a certain extent with me."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And we will experience some more of God's glory when we're together."
David: Right.
Seth: And I'm like-
David: This idea of, like, making our joy complete.
Seth: Yes.
David: And one of, and each of us bearing the image of Jesus together. Uh, that's why the Church is such good news, the body of Christ is such good news. Yeah. That's really good. I just, I love that idea of, like, I talk all the time about how the Bible, because, like, 2 Corinthians 3 and 4 talk about that the, the Bible has a veil over it that keeps us from seeing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the light of the glory of the face of Jesus Christ and the gospel, and that our whole mission at Spoken Gospel is to get the veil off your Bible-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and get you to see the face of Jesus, to see Jesus-
Seth: Mm
David: ... face to face in paper and ink.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Yep.
David: But it's actually really good news that one day I'll be out of a job.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? That there will no longer be a paper and ink mediator between us and the face of God, but instead, we will behold him face to face without deception. That's, like, really good news.
Seth: I've always imagined, like, there still being writers in heaven, and still-
David: Yes
Seth: ... being, like, preachers in heaven.
David: Yes.
Seth: But, like, instead of it being, like, "And this is true, guys. Don't you... Isn't it gonna be great news?"
David: I'm gonna convince you. [laughs]
Seth: I'm just gonna, one is like, "And that's what he did over there." And then Jesus is gonna kinda like sheepishly wave, like, "Hey, uh-
David: "Hey
Seth: ... it's totally me. I did that." [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: And it's like, we'll still use those gifts-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but we won't have to, like, hope they'll be true or wonder if they're true. They will be true.
David: They will be true.
Seth: And we will see them to be true face to face.
David: Yeah, that's really good. Uh, okay, 2 John.
Seth: That's 2 John.
David: Uh, it's a, it's a chock-full little book.
Seth: It is a little...
David: Uh-
Seth: I wouldn't have thought that at, when I just read it through the first time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, but-
David: Oh, no. Yeah
Seth: ... the more I studied... This, this just goes to show the value of being and loving Bible nerdy things.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, there's just-
David: It pays dividends.
Seth: This pays dividends.
David: Yeah. Um, oh, before we sign off on this, you and I talked off-air a few days ago, so hopefully-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... you can remember-
Seth: Oh, gosh
David: ... um, about how it's interesting to think about 2 John bringing up this idea of itinerant missionaries and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... itinerant travelers, and then 3 John's gonna talk about the same thing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And likely, the Antichrist in 1 John were also itinerant travelers.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: And that all... It, it's interesting to go back and read 1 John-
Seth: Mm
David: ... thinking about the idea of itinerant travelers, and that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all the commands in 1 John about loving your brother and it being a test of whether or not you're in Christ could be about loving other itinerant missionaries who come through your, your doors.
Seth: Right, because then we have a bad itinerant missionary here.
David: Right.
Seth: But in 3 John, we have a good itinerant missionary.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it's like-
David: But you need to love the good ones.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? [laughs] It's, yeah.
Seth: So yeah, we talked about brothers being fellow members of your church. We talked about brothers being even your enemies. But there's also, like, the way that John uses brothers here, in 3 John at least-
David: Yep
Seth: ... will be itinerant missionaries preaching the true gospel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I'll say, oh, yeah, we, we totally missed that.
David: Yeah, it was just interesting to go back after-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... having 2 John fill out more of the world-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to go back and be like, oh, that makes more sense in 1 John.
Seth: Loving your brothers is loving missionaries-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... being hospitable to missionaries.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Super cool. Okay, just wanted to throw that last little nugget in there. Well, guys, thank you so much for listening to our podcast on 2 John.
Seth: Next week-
David: Next week
Seth: ... we'll be in 3 John.
David: 3 John. It'll be super exciting.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we will see you there.
Seth: See you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
