Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm not gonna ask how Seth is today. Yeah, because we just—
Seth: ignore that question, David.
David: I— if this is your first episode somehow, I usually start the episode by asking how Seth is, but we have just been contemplating and meditating on today's passage about how God is love, and we're both a bit of a wreck right now.
Seth: Yes. And if you haven't listened to Chris Renzema's song God is Love.
David: Yes.
Seth: Do so immediately.
David: I'm actually— I'm just going to say this. I'm going to put it at the end of the episode. Oh, the song. I think I can.
Seth: I think I can. If not, we'll put in the show notes.
David: Yes. Either in the show notes at the end of the episode. I'm gonna put the song there because it's amazing. Chris Rinzema's God is Love. We listened to it. We just both looked up after it was over and we were crying.
Seth: We were crying.
David: It's fine. So we're totally ready for a podcast.
Seth: We're totally ready for— we're emotionally stable and ready for a podcast about one of the most famous passages in scripture.
David: Yes. God is love. 1 John 4, what is it?
Seth: It's 4:8, and then he says it again in 4:15 or 4:14.
David: Okay.
Seth: He says it twice.
David: Oh, there it is. 16.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yeah.
Seth: One of the most famous passages in scripture. God is love.
David: Totally.
Seth: Also probably one of the most easily misunderstood.
David: What? It's so simple.
Seth: It's so simple.
David: How could someone misunderstand it?
Seth: And so I was trying to figure out like, why is it so difficult? Why is it so countercultural? So I was like, how can I just cut off our misunderstanding of this text at the knees. Okay. And I was like, well, I think we need to say up front that love is not a feeling as far as John is concerned in this passage. Yeah. At least not primarily. Not as John is concerned. Like when he writes the phrase, God is love, I don't think he's saying God has the capacity to feel affection.
David: Although he does.
Seth: Although he does.
David: But that's not what he's exactly saying.
Seth: Right. And I think what helpful for us in naming that. It's like, I guess I'm exaggerating a little bit. Sure. But it's like, I think we use love to define almost everything. I just typed in love into news today and it was like, why we need to learn to love GMOs, why pregnant so-and-so loves her new body, why Ella, whoever is like, I was like, I think love is just this affection or even a willingness to buy and consume something.
David: Totally. Oh, I mean, and, and love, I mean, it's love is a word, right? It exists within language and like all language, it evolves.
Seth: Yeah. Right.
David: So love being an English word, you know, that at one time had one meaning 600 years ago and now it has a new meaning.
Seth: Yes.
David: It evolves with the culture that that word lives within. And so love, when we say that as Americans, you know, at least for Seth and I today or for wherever you're listening to this.
Seth: I mean, I like to think of myself as a European.
David: You do. You grew up over there. I grew up over there. But there's a Western even idea of love. That might mean tolerance.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or kindness. Kindness or being a good person or not being a jerk.
Seth: Yeah. And I think the thing that we keep learning the longer we do this project is that the closer we can come to understand what our author means in that particular moment in time as he's writing that thing, the broader our understanding of Scripture and God is. And I think here is like Man, we should all be for love. God is love. Like, let's not miss that. Like, God is love. But like, I think when we limit love to being an emotive thing, we actually limit the different ways that we can meditate on God as love. Yeah. And like, we can widen our definition of what love means by paying closer attention to scripture and what John says here.
David: That's great. Well then, let's do that.
Seth: Yes, please.
David: So is the best way to do that by going through chapter 4?
Seth: Yes, we could do that.
David: Um, or do you have another plan?
Seth: I have no plans. I've been trying to figure out— so we, so we've talked a couple different times with the way John structures his argument.
David: Yes.
Seth: Some— one of our commentators thinks of it as like a DNA strand. He has like point A and point B, like God is love and we obey God's commandments. Those are the two main themes that like spiral—
David: a double helix.
Seth: A double helix. Yeah. And it spirals through the whole book and has all these connecting lines where it's like light and darkness, life and death, uh, Love your brother, don't hate that, you know, truth in that.
David: And then it's basic reading, like looking at a DNA strand, a double helix. It seems repetitive and simplistic.
Seth: Yes.
David: You read through it. Even the, even the Greek itself is very simple Greek. This is the, this is the book you translate in elementary Greek. It's in most elementary Greek classes. It's simple. But then as you dive deeper into a DNA strand, you know, the whole human body is encoded. Exactly. It's like, oh, this is so intense, you know? And it's like, and we're not trying to make mountains out of molehills here. It's just that John is packing really deep theology in simple words, which makes him a great theologian.
Seth: And I was thinking about this, like he self-identifies as the disciple Jesus loved in his gospel. Yeah. And now we're getting the disciple that experienced and defined himself as the one that Jesus loved specially is now writing about the love of Jesus. Yeah, that's pretty awesome for his people. I'm like, man, I, I don't think I am old enough, wise enough, ready enough to tread these waters.
David: But we gonna try.
Seth: We're gonna try. So, so what is love, David?
David: Oh wait, in this text?
Seth: Baby, don't hurt me.
David: Baby, don't hurt me no more. Um, do you want me to answer that in this text?
Seth: Yeah. What is love? How does John define love? Okay.
David: I can answer that question. I think. So let's look at verse 7 if we can. Okay. It also is funny. There's a— in the Greek here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Verse 7. It sounds almost repetitive because it's beloved, love.
Seth: So yeah.
David: Yeah. So it's like agape, agape.
Seth: Did you know the word love is used 27 times in this passage? So it's just these like 12 verses.
David: So much love.
Seth: And beloved is another 2, right? So love.
David: So he's like, my beloved. Beloved. It just sounds kind of funny. Anyway, so beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. I mean, already, like, the floodgates are open in terms of the depth that we can get to here. But what I want to push toward is the God is love moment. So he says anyone who does not love does not know God. We'll come back to all this because God is love. And in this, the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. And then here's where I was trying to get. Verse 10: This is love. So he defines it for us. We don't have to define it. We don't have to go searching. We don't look to culture. We just— if you want to know what John thought about love, his definition, this is love, comma, not that we have loved God. So, okay, it's not that. Love is not what I do for God, the feelings I have towards God, my devotion to God. But this is it: that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. He died for us.
Seth: The atoning sacrifice.
David: The atoning sacrifice for our sins. So that's love. So I think what's interesting is, is what is love? Love is Jesus coming to us and dying as our atoning sacrifice. That is love.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's interesting too, when we start to think about the broader scope of 1 John being written toward these cessationists, these antichrists who have left the church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And were false teachers. And one of their false teachings was that Jesus is not God.
Seth: He didn't come in the flesh.
David: He didn't come in the flesh. He didn't die for your sin. You know, he's not the propitiation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then for him to say God is love and love is defined as Jesus dying for your sins. In a sense, what John is saying is God is love could be translated God is Jesus. What is love? It's Jesus. This could be— I mean, this is like a Trinitarian text where it's like proving the divinity of Jesus.
Seth: Yes.
David: What is love? It's Jesus. So in the simplest terms, to explain what John is saying here is God is Jesus.
Seth: Yes.
David: Means God is love.
Seth: Yes. And what I think is super interesting about that is one of the critiques that John consistently has the Antichrist is that they hate their their brother, which I've always thought is like probably too strong, right? Nobody goes around like boasting, bragging, or teaching that they should hate their brother, right?
David: And if they do, they don't— they're not like wolves in sheep's clothing, right? They stand out too much.
Seth: Yeah, people don't follow them, right? But if what he means is that true love is the love that God had for us when he sent his Son to cover our sins, So when you deny that Jesus came in the flesh, you're denying the greatest act of love. That's right. That existed.
David: The worst way to hate your brother, the strongest way to hate your brother, is by denying them Jesus.
Seth: Which made it— me really, really— I think I wrote it this way in our, in our devotional, but like, so that means like to be anti— like Antichrist could be cruel and violent, like how we normally picture them, but they could also be kind and inclusive, like being against love, being hateful is first about your relationship to the self-definition of love in Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: Not that it can't be the way that you treat other people.
David: Yes. We also— kindness is also a fruit of the Spirit. We're not demonizing kindness here, but like the way that John's talking about it, like, yes, you could have a kind antichrist.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the Antichrist hates his brother. Who hates his brother?
David: Because why? Because he's denying that God is Jesus, that God is love. He's denying the true source of love, which is Jesus dying for our sins. So what now? We could talk about the Antichrist some more if you want. You have another path you want to take?
Seth: I could talk about the ant— I could always talk about it. I did not get my fill from last week's podcast. We could continue, but there's so much that we haven't said already that I'm like nervous to move Deeper into the Antichrist.
David: I know.
Seth: Can we move back?
David: Let's go back.
Seth: Um, what John ends up focusing on throughout this is the ethical imperative to love your brother.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's like maybe even more so than God is love, although that grounds our love for one another. It's our love for others that he is continually hammering home to his people. Right. Beloved, let us love one another because love is from God. And whoever loves has been born of God and known God.
David: Yes.
Seth: Whoever does not love does not know God because God is love.
David: Yes.
Seth: Shown primarily in Jesus's death for us. Yes. To give us life. Yeah. Um, our love for one another. Mm-hmm. What does that mean? Mm. If we are defined— if John is defining love as like an atoning work.
David: Yes.
Seth: For all of humanity. I can't atone for the sins of somebody else.
David: Right.
Seth: Right. What does that mean practically? And if it's not primarily an emotion of kindness or tolerance towards somebody, what is it?
David: Yeah. So, uh, there, there's a flow of argument that's happening. That goes from God to Jesus and then from Jesus to us. So think about this. So you had God had a son who proved what love is by dying for us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right. And then those of us who, like, believe that, who put our trust in that, who love Jesus and are loved by Jesus and have our sins propitiated, you know, we then enter into a new relationship. Which he says here, we've now been born of God because we've been born of love.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Those of us who trust Jesus for our salvation are born of love, and now we become children of God. Who else was a child of God?
Seth: Jesus.
David: Jesus.
Seth: He just said that, right? Right.
David: His only son was Jesus. But now we are God's sons too. Well, God sent Jesus on a mission to be love to the world in his unique way. So now, as God's children, he's sending us into the world to be love in any— in his unique way. Now that doesn't mean that we go around, you know, we don't— we're not perfect. We can't be a propitiation, right?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: But we can love as Jesus loved only like if and only if we are filled with his spirit.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the, that's the difference.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And like, right. There's more to say about that.
Seth: I think the way that you framed it too, it's like propitiation. We talked a lot about this in our second— it's a covering over of our sins. And it just struck me like, One of the ways that Paul talks about love is like, it does not keep a record of wrongs.
David: Oh, totally.
Seth: It's a covering over of wrongs. Like, one of the way— one basic analogy is a covering over of wrongs. Another way I think we've talked about atonement is like taking responsibility for sins that are not your fault, that you didn't commit. It's easy to absorb the cost of somebody else's foolishness and somebody else's sins. And I think like, if anybody's married or, you know, has a deep friendship.
David: You have to do that.
Seth: You have to do that all the time. There are analogies in our life where that is rather obvious.
David: Yeah. While you can't atone for the sins of the whole world or be a perfect mediator between God and man, you can in your own life cover over the sins of others by forgiving, by not harboring grudges.
Seth: Yes.
David: By not dwelling on past mistakes, but by bringing fresh love and acceptance to people. And not deserve it, right?
Seth: Or not taking revenge, not retaliating.
David: Yes.
Seth: I've talked to many a teenager who, once they've been slighted, want to just get even as quickly as possible. And it's like, justice is the Lord's. He will repay. And that— the willingness to wait for God to judge rather than you to enact it yourself and to punish them either with your words or your silence is an act of God's sacrificial love towards us.
David: It's what Jesus did.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right. He, he, he, he did not come to condemn the world, but to save the world. John says in his gospel, right, he, he left former sins unpunished. Right. He, he was waiting for the day of the Lord, which he says, I don't know when it's going to be while he was on earth. And so instead he bore the punishment now and like, yeah, waiting for God to take revenge later.
Seth: I was thinking, I was just thinking in this moment about Like 1 Corinthians 13, love is patient and kind. Yeah, it does not end.
David: Other love is statements.
Seth: Love. And I was like, I wonder if it would probably be a really fruitful exercise for all of us to think about God's death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead as a type of patience.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God, or Paul says it, he's like, he bore sins for— how does he say it in Romans 1? The law was a tutor and he passed over former sins. Yeah. Until the fullness of time.
David: Yes. He left former sins unpunished.
Seth: That's right. So his love was patient. Yeah.
David: Very patient.
Seth: Yeah. And then so what does that mean for us as we wait for our brothers, our sisters, our moms, our spouses? Yeah. It's like, it's not— yeah.
David: It's like, oh, I'm feeling impatient. Why aren't they here yet? You know what? They're standing out and it's like, well, you know, God didn't just strike me dead the first time I sinned. He was patient with me until I was 16 and finally repented. You know, like you would—
Seth: 16 years. I can wait 5 minutes.
David: Yeah. You know, it's It's like a really boots-on-the-ground way to look at the entire history of Israel until— yeah.
Seth: And so I was just thinking, man, that would probably be a really powerful exercise for me personally. For you, it was like reread Paul's love is kind, does not envy, does not boast. How does that define Jesus's work on the cross?
David: Yeah, that's interesting.
Seth: And how does Jesus's unboasting and humble death inform how we should love our our neighbor anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That just got me thinking.
David: No, it's really good.
Seth: You could probably spend the whole podcast just doing that one thing.
David: Meditating on that.
Seth: Yeah. But, um, yeah.
David: So the, another thing that's really interesting is that, um, it kind of, I hinted at it earlier that it's, it's like we can only love if we're loving through Jesus. Like if we're indwelt by Jesus and we're loving the way he loved, only that is love.
Seth: Um, like Say that in a way that doesn't sound so much like John. Very confusing.
David: What other people call love is not love.
Seth: When I show me as a non-Christian spouse, show love towards my other non-Christian spouse, that isn't love.
David: It can't be what the love John's talking about. It can't be. It can be. You can call it by another name if you want. Kindness, compassion, empathy, loyalty. Sincerity, devotion. If you want to go bad, lust, you know, but like those are all a lot of, except for lust, those are all good things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's not what John's driving at.
Seth: Lust is fine. Lust is fine. When it's towards your wife. Right, right.
David: We are not getting into that. No one sound clip this, but whatever it is, a lot riding on that. Whatever it is, I'm moving on. It can't be the love that John is talking about here. And I say that because the love that, that John defines here is very narrow and specific, and it can only be done by a person who has experienced the love of Jesus, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and is then loving with the same intention and motivation that Jesus had on the cross, which is a high order.
Seth: Maybe this will help us get there because I'm still like, really? I can't say my non-Christian friends love each other. Like, I can't say that.
David: I mean, you could say it, but I, but I think to get to—
Seth: right. Help me even say. Verse 8: Anyone who does not love God does not know God, because God is love. Right. And so the Apostle Paul will do this, and even John does it. He's like, well, because God loved us this way, you should love that way. But this is a different statement. He's saying God in his own being is definitively love. Right.
David: Love is one thing.
Seth: It is God.
David: And it's—
Seth: no, no, love is not God.
David: No, love is not— no, God is love. That's right. But it's defined by God. He's the keeper of the keys when it comes to the definition of what love is.
Seth: Right. And so it would be impossible to, to your point, to be loving if God did not abide in you.
David: Yes.
Seth: If the definition of love, if love incarnate, right, does not live in you, you can't love others.
David: Let me, I can get boots on the ground.
Seth: Okay.
David: I think.
Seth: Okay.
David: It'll take a little bit of time, but I can get there. I promise.
Seth: Can I ask one question before you do that? Yeah. Why doesn't John say that?
David: Uh, he wasn't inspired to do so.
Seth: Well, I saw it was like my mind immediately went to like, well then what's the inverse of it? It's like, well, if God's love isn't in you, you can't love. He never says that.
David: Right.
Seth: He says because God's love is in you, you can love. He's always like—
David: I mean, he kind of does go there though, because he says that if God is not in you, then you hate your brother.
Seth: Verse 20: If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, who he has seen. Interesting.
David: There's a connection between— yes, if you don't know God, you can't love your brother.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Like, I mean, at least not, not the way that John is talking about, the Jesus-inspired self-sacrificial—
David: totally.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so what— one way to describe describe this is to think about it in the way that like a Christian has a relationship with sin. So like, you have to indulge me just for a second. I think it's worth it.
Seth: Okay.
David: But if you will see, when Adam and Eve were in the garden— this is old Augustine— when Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were able to sin and able to not sin.
Seth: Meaning that they had a choice, they had a choice, a real choice to sin or not sin.
David: That's right. But after the fall, death entered the world and sin became our ruler, we only had one choice, which was no choice at all. We were not able not to sin.
Seth: We could only sin.
David: We could only sin. Okay, we had no choice. Yeah, I think in that same moment you could say we were not able to love. But whenever Jesus like enters into us and we actually experience his love, we now become what Augustine called posse peccare, posse non peccare, which is the Latin for again, going back to the Edenic state, able to sin, but also finally able to not sin. And in the same way, I think as Christians, we have the ability non-Christians don't have. We are able to love, but we're able— we're also able to not love.
Seth: It's interesting, you did a couple things there. You basically equated sin with love. Oh, not loving.
David: Yeah, I was saying, yeah.
Seth: But he says in verse 20, and this is the commandment we have from God. 'Whoever loves God must also love his brother.' John feels really comfortable conflating the commands of God to loving God and loving your brother.
David: Which is the command.
Seth: The command.
David: You know, Jesus was asked this question: what's the central, most important command in the Old Testament? Love God, love your brother.
Seth: After the fall, we were unable—
David: yes—
Seth: to love God and love our brother. We had no choice but to do those things, right? Here's what I'm also thinking. What if we added a word to our English word love to help us get closer to what John is saying here? Redemptive love, right? Yes. Without Christ, we can't redemptively love our friend.
David: That's absolutely right. We can't either because we aren't redeemed and we can't love them in a redeemed way. Yeah. Or in a redeeming way.
Seth: Yes.
David: That— and this is where I think you're absolutely right to go here. This is where I was trying to get. Where it's like, because you could say, you know, the, the whole Augustine, you're not able not to sin, you can only sin. It's like, okay, so you're saying that a non-Christian, when they give to a charity or when they help an old lady across the street or when they tuck their kids into bed, they're sinning, you know?
Seth: Right, right.
David: And it's like, it's very controversial, but yes, you know, it's— I mean, even the Bible backs this up. Anything that does not come from faith is sin. Like, this is a biblical idea, and the reason is because your motivations are always polluted, you know? Like, your motivations are always self-preservation or comfort or care, even care for another person, but they are not maybe another way into God.
Seth: Well, another way to say it is like, like John is simplifying. So what are we doing here? God is love. God is redemptive love. He, his son dies that way, and that God lives in you and you're supposed to live that way. And people who don't have that Son, that God living in them, can't love redemptively, right? That means for all that love is outside of the gospel community, outside of Christian community, it's never redemptive.
David: It's not that.
Seth: It's not that. It can't redeem. It can't save. It's good.
David: It's good. Yeah, there's common grace.
Seth: Yeah, but it's not redemptive. Um, and I'm wondering too, like how much like that redemptive aspect makes something sin or not sin. Like the ability to, or the propensity to, or the inclination towards redemption, right, is the difference between sinning and not sinning. Or even doing the right thing with the wrong motive and doing the right thing with the right motive, right? It's because doing the right thing with the right motive ultimately is redemptive. That's right. It brings God's kingdom one step further in the world. Yeah. While the other one, while might be a neutral good, can never be actively redemptive.
David: That's right.
Seth: Because it doesn't have the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, right, indwelling that action.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yes, I can. Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I'm driving at. Yep.
Seth: Which is interesting. Verse 12, he— so this forms a little inclusio. So it's a section.
David: Inclusio is a bookend.
Seth: A bookend.
David: Yeah. You have something on the front that matches something on the back. And the in-between parts prove the bookends. Yes. That is how to define it. Okay.
Seth: No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God abides in us and this love is perfected in us. And then he goes on at the very bottom. He says, we love because he first loved us. If anyone says, I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love the God who he has not seen. So there's something about love that makes visible the invisible God.
David: Yes. The gospel.
Seth: The gospel. Right. Well, this is another point, which is if you go rewind all the way back to the beginning of the double helix.
David: What we have seen, what we have heard, what we have touched with our hands. John, 1 John 1.
Seth: John opens the gospel by talking about the Jesus he has seen. Yes. And is communicating to people who have not seen that Jesus. That he has seen that Jesus. And the functional message, the way that they know he existed and he becomes visible is through John's love. John's love towards him and his testimony of them. And then the way the world will know of that redemptive love is the same way that John showed it, but also Jesus.
David: Yep.
Seth: God's love for eons of history was invisible until Jesus came in the flesh. Right. Now, for the rest of human history, Jesus has died and risen, and he, he's not coming back until he comes back. Right. So how is the invisible love of the resurrected Jesus, even God or God himself, God himself, going to be shown in the world when you, filled with the redemptive love of God, go into the world and make it known?
David: Yep.
Seth: Which is—
David: I was like, yeah, it's a hot— it elevates the idea of like being a Christian or even like doing good or obeying God's laws, or even loving your neighbor, right? To say your job, Christian, is to make the invisible God visible is like, ooh, that's exciting.
Seth: And I mean, even the word choice that John uses to describe God's love—
David: God—
Seth: in this, in this, the love of God was made manifest. It appeared. It was shown. It was like it appeared in time, in history. That God sent his son to the world so we might live.
David: Yeah, there's something which goes back to kind of what we're talking about with like, what is love? It can't just be an emotion.
Seth: Why?
David: Because emotions aren't— emotions are invisible. Ah, actions make them visible, you know. But if love is made manifest and it's made manifest in Jesus appearing, dying for our sins, obviously love must not just be an emotion, right? It must be action.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, which is really interesting. Uh, now obviously it's motivated by also what we consider the emotion of love, but the Bible has other words for that. Like, like the Hebrew hesed, you know, like covenant love, steadfast love, faithful, loyal love.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, God wants, wants us in his family and wants to keep promises he's made to us. That's a feeling God has that makes him action love us, right?
Seth: Well, and this goes back to like a conversation we were having off air. Like, it's not illegitimate to talk about the emotion of love.
David: Definitely not.
Seth: And like he, John, even says it. He says, uh, in this is love, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son. So from that love, sent his son. Like, there was like a divine emotive thing that moved him towards action to send his son.
David: And man, I need that. I need both of those so badly, because I think that as I was in the early stages of becoming a Christian, especially later in life, like, I went— I was moved, radically moved by the self-sacrificial death of Jesus on my behalf, right? And I mean, obviously so, it's amazing.
Seth: It's the gospel.
David: It's the gospel. But if that is the only thing that I have, it can quickly become like, well, I better, like, do good for others or whatever because Jesus died for me. You know, like, I feel almost guilty that Jesus died for me because it's not anchored in a father looking at me, his son, and saying, I love you. I'm going to die for you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, if I don't have that first, I love you, I'm going to— I'm going to die for you. And I just have the I died for you. I can develop like a guilt complex, like, and I— this is like, this is just me personally. I'm not really exegeting 1 John here, but this is like, I need God to love me, you know, so badly because I don't always feel very lovable.
Seth: I'm sure that the disciple that Jesus loved did not think when he wrote that, well, I'm the disciple that Jesus died for.
David: Totally.
Seth: He meant something more than that.
David: Yep.
Seth: And although it includes that for sure, but, um, there is an emotive abiding sense. I mean, like a characteristic of God, like one of his attributes, like that's like the theological word for it. It was like, is love. Like, that's profound, right?
David: And then he bends that attribute toward me.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, it is. And this is why you should go and listen to the Chris Franzima song, God Is Love. If you don't—
David: second plug—
Seth: second play—
David: if you don't cry while you're listening to it, my old pastor, what he would say is, your wood's wet.
Seth: Your wood's wet?
David: Like, you're fine, like a fireplace, you know, you can't light it. He's like, if that song doesn't stir you up, your wood's wet. That's what the old pastor I had would say. Come off, come back on stage after a worship set. He's like, well, that didn't light a fire in your woods.
Seth: That's such a great pastor.
David: It's such a great pastor. Okay, this is all really interesting. One thing we haven't talked about that is worth just backpedaling to for just a second is God is love, but nowhere is 1 John insinuating that God is only love. No, like people have tried to build a hierarchy of the attributes of God. That one attribute of God controls the other. So in, so in a similar structure, Hebrews says God is a consuming fire. Yeah, it's who he is. Yeah, it's an attribute, you know. And it's like, those are both true at the same time. It's not our job to say, well, God is supremely controllingly love, and his consuming fire comes under that, right? And so therefore, his consuming fire cannot be XYZ, because that would not be loving.
Seth: Yes.
David: But on the flip side, what we can say is, since they go side by side, when God is acting like a consuming fire, it is love.
Seth: Yes.
David: So I know that sounds semantic.
Seth: No, no, no, it isn't. I think, I think the doctrine is called the simplicity of God.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it basically means that all of God's— none of God's attributes fight each other.
David: That's right.
Seth: They all define one another. His wisdom— God is wise.
David: Yes.
Seth: But it's a loving wisdom, and his love is wise, and his anger is a loving anger. And it's like those things don't compete with one another, right? And I think on both sides of the aisle, this gets weird fast.
David: Fast.
Seth: And what's one of the things I've loved continually about working on this project is that it's allowed me to stop and just think and not try to fix one version of God against the other version of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God says God is love. Let me just camp out there and go crazy with it for a second. Yeah. And I'll save God is angry for another day.
David: For when the Bible talks about it.
Seth: When the Bible talks about it, I'm going to go all in on that. And I don't need to feel that for one to compete with another because then I'm going to actually limit. I think people think that they'll expand on the nature and character of God when they define— let one attribute control the others. But it ends up just limiting them. It makes them totally less complex.
David: It makes them one-dimensional.
Seth: It makes them far more one-dimensional. I mean, by definition, one-dimensional.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think we've all been in traditions that either like celebrate the wrath of God and control and talk about the wrath of God as the defining way that we talk about his love.
David: Yes. You know, he was wrathful against you. And boy, you're sure lucky, right, that Jesus loved you.
Seth: Jesus got through, got thrown in the way. Otherwise he was coming.
David: He was coming for you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you better watch out because he's, you know, you step out of line, right?
Seth: Yeah. Or even— yes. So, and then on the other side, love makes— to the extent that God can never be angry at injustice.
David: That's right.
Seth: So anyway, we are off topic, but I thought that was worth backpedaling to. It is.
David: So, yes. Okay, I think we need to move forward into this whole, uh, confidence, like, proof idea, because there's a doctrine— God is love, right? That it's who he is, and he died for our sins. That's what we're talking about. But then there's a— there's the test, the ethical command of love your brother. Like, that's the test, and the command is like, if you do that, then we— that's how you know that you are in the one who is love if you love your brother. So again, we've come to this idea in John, I don't know, every episode. Yeah. Is this idea of how do you know you're saved?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's usually something that is based on how you're behaving.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And this time it's do you love your brother?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And especially how we've now defined it. Do you redemptively love your brother?
Seth: Yes.
David: Do you love your brother the way Jesus loved him?
Seth: Yes. That's good. Here's what— here's how this section begins. It's, by this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us his Spirit. So he starts off with the Holy Spirit.
David: Really important.
Seth: And then he goes on and says, and we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God's abide in him— God abides in him and he in God. Now, I think John says it more clearly in the Gospel of John. John 16— sorry, 15:26. He says, when the Holy Spirit comes, whom I will send from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. So John goes all the way back when he— he's like, the Holy Spirit, when he lives in you, is proof that God is in you. What does the Holy Spirit do when he's inside you? He tells other people that he's inside. He tells about the love that we've just been talking about.
David: He bears fruit.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: So the reason I wanted to bring that up was before we get into— like, there's like, maybe it's a— there's a one— was a test, but there's a two-part answer. Okay, so the test is, do you love your brother? And the answer is, well, by the— we know that You're in God because you're filled with the Holy Spirit and you say that Jesus came. Oh, it's like, it's like you have to affirm the first thing that God is love before you can do the second thing, which is actually love.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which goes back to what we said about the Antichrist. So it's like, why are the Antichrists against— why is claiming that Jesus didn't come in the flesh such a big deal? Because that's anti-love, right? That's against love. It's like, if you want to love your brother, the first thing you have to do is be filled with the Spirit that allows you to testify that Jesus came in the flesh. Oh, right.
David: Because he says earlier that you can't— no one says that Jesus is Son of God except by the Spirit. Right?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He does say that.
David: So it's like, do you confess that Jesus is the Son of God? Good. If that's true, then the Spirit is in you. Step 1.
Seth: Step 1.
David: Step 2. Since the Spirit is in you, he will lead you to love others. Therefore, if you find yourself loving your brother, that is just proof positive of your original confession that you believe Jesus is the Son of God, that the Spirit made you say, that is now leading you to love. It is a cycle, a circle of confirmation.
Seth: Yes, I have a circular relationship in my margins. There you go. But here is how John says it in 1 John 4:16. So, based on the fact that we have the Spirit and testify that Jesus came in the flesh in love to save us from our sin, We have come to know and to believe that the love that God has for us— God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. That's the circle. Yes, that's the circle.
David: Yes.
Seth: And by this love— I'm gonna actually stop reading from this translation because it's way more easy to understand in a different translation, the NIV. So this is 1 John 4:16. Searching, searching, pulling things up. I'm too busy on the Chris Renzi lyrics.
David: All the lyrics are there. You're like, that's the third plug.
Seth: That's the third plug. Okay. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment. In this world, we are like Jesus, which I thought was Really clear.
David: Very clear.
Seth: Um, and it goes back to the circle again. So how do we, how do we pass the test? Well, in order to love your brother, redemptively love your brother, you have to be filled with a God who is redemptive love.
David: Yes.
Seth: You have to confess that he actually came in order to fill you with that redemptive love. And then how do you have confidence on that day? By being like Jesus, by redemptively loving those around you. Yeah, that's how you know.
David: Something that you read, it was in the other translation, but something you read was just like, it really struck me. That's like, uh, the Spirit, like, oh, what? I got to find it now because it was so good. What verse did you read?
Seth: I read—
David: oh, wait, here it is. 16. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has had for us, or has for us. And I'm like, it's, it's so strange, but I feel this so uniquely. That I have to be moved by an omnipotent, all-powerful being, the Holy Spirit, in order to know God loves me, to know and believe that God loves me, you know? And I'm just like, ah, that's true, because I quickly slip into not believing that God loves me.
Seth: And so what Paul prays is, I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation. Yes. So that your eyes would be be opened to know the riches of his love towards us. Like, Paul prays the same thing for us, right?
David: We need the Holy Spirit.
Seth: I like how you said it. Since we need the omnipotent God to speak to us, to convince us that he loves us, that he loves us.
David: And I'm like, yeah, I really do. Like, even now I need the Holy Spirit to move on my heart to convince me that God loves me. You know, it's like that, and it's like that's the mark of confidence, is when you can actually believe that God loves you even though you have stood in the light as 1 John 1 told you to do and confess your sins, and you know how messed up you are, and then you know that Jesus looks at you as your propitiation, and God— and through him, God loves you. I'm just like, that's how you know and can have confidence on that day.
Seth: Well, right. What's— that's what he says next. Like, there's no fear in love, right? Because perfect love casts out fear. Yeah. Perfect. The perfect redemptive love of Jesus has paved over all the ways that you've been unloving, unkind, sinful, undeserving of his mercy. It's all gone.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Perfect love has cast out fear because what's fear? It's the fear of punishment.
David: It's the fear of punishment.
Seth: It's the fear of being left out. It's the fear of not being on the inside. With God. It's the fear of not him not being in you, right? All that's gone. Why? Because the omnipotent God became flesh in love and died for you. Yeah. And he covered over the sins that would have separated you from him so that he can be in you. And that's that holy— and then he is in you by his Holy Spirit, which helps you confess it and to know that he actually loves you. He's got you covered all ends of the circle.
David: It's him throughout, and it's Trinitarian, you know, like God loves you, sent his son to die for you, and then put his spirit in you to make you believe it all, you know, like it's amazing. Um, I'm— we've said it now several times, verses like 17 and 18, 16, 17, 18, talk about, um, the day of the Lord again, the day that Jesus will come. We talked about this in the last podcast when we'll see him and become like him and all that stuff. But it said in 1 John 2:28 that he's writing to you and is asking you to abide in God's love so that you might have confidence on that day, so that you won't shrink back from him in shame when he comes. And I've been— as I've been reading this and meditating on it, I've just been like, I have a really— I don't know if it's unique to me. I'm sure it's not. But I feel like every time I come to God in prayer, you know, like in the morning when I want to get up and pray, I feel like I have to spend a certain amount of time fearful and apologetic and like I have to jump through 10 hoops before I'm allowed to just sit and be a son.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it makes it really exhausting. It makes me not want to do it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And then there was this line in John Stott's commentary today on 1 John. I think it's the Tyndale Commentary series, if anybody's wanting to look for it. But he said that—
Seth: John Stott, whatever he says.
David: Yeah, just go. Yeah, it's fine. Is that love, perfect love, flings open the doors of fear and lets you just enter into God's presence. And for some reason, for me, That's what I needed to hear.
Seth: That's what you need to hear.
David: Where I was just like, so I don't know, somebody else out there is like, yeah, I just have a hard time approaching God. When I read in Hebrews, come before the throne of grace with confidence and boldness, right? I'm like, good luck with that.
Seth: Yeah. We keep talking about all the confidence, but it's like, who's this written to? People that don't have confidence.
David: They're afraid.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. And like are ashamed and want to shrink back from God. And it's like, okay, if that's you, God loves you and he died for you in redemptive love. And I was putting his spirit in you to make your hard heart believe it.
Seth: And it's like, I was reading Peter Lightheart on the same idea and he was talking about the different ways you could fear God in scripture. So you have like reverential fear, right?
David: There's a good fear of the Lord.
Seth: And the way that he defined the good fear of the Lord, it was like, it's a fear that draws you closer. It's a fear that, like, it's the fear that you have as you step over the, like, near the edge of a cliff, but you want to look down, right? It's like, whoa, this is cool, this is crazy. I was like, or it's the fear, like, as you're, you're in the stratosphere and you're about to hit zero G, and then you're drawn to the stars. Like, that moment, like, will we make it?
David: Let's go.
Seth: Like, that moment, like, that's, that's reverential fear. It's the fear that draws you closer, like a thrill junkie. Yes.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: And then there's a fear that makes you cower and shrink away. It's like, God can't love me. God would never love me. I don't love anybody redemptively like this.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and according to the Bible, I've never loved anybody redemptively, you know, like, you know, um, yeah.
David: Uh, yeah.
Seth: And that makes you cower, but you don't need to because perfect love, which is Jesus, which is Jesus, is perfect love, casts out that fear.
David: Why? Because he died for the punishment. Because the fear— he says it here— fear comes from punishment. It's a fear that when you draw near to God, ultimately, no matter how good you are, no matter what you do, no matter how much you self-flagellate, no matter how many times you go to church, no matter how much you believe in Jesus, ultimately it's not going to go well for you. He's going to punish you. Or if he doesn't punish you, you'll squeak by by the skin of your teeth. Or he'll like let you in but kind of give you a dirty look, you know? Like, these are all thoughts I've had in my head.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, that's not true. He loves you with perfect love. Why? Because Jesus died to take away the punishment. There is no punishment left. You're just a child of God now. You're a son, you're a daughter of God, and he loves you like a son, like a daughter.
Seth: Uh, yeah, there's another song that I've listened to a few times, and there's— this makes me— the way that I shrink back, it's like the list goes on forever of the ways that I could be better in my mind, as if I could earn God's favor given time, or at least congratulations. Oh, and I was like, that's the, the shrinking back, the unconfidence that I always have. I've got this long list, God. Yeah, of all the ways that I could be better and I know that I'm not. Yeah. I just want you to pat me on the back, you know, like, hey, you marked off half the list.
David: Congratulations.
Seth: And it's like, I'm just afraid that I'll never get that.
David: Totally.
Seth: And I will.
David: Yeah. And it's not about the list.
Seth: It's not about the list. Yeah. I think I said it in our devotional. It's like, I don't need to bring a list of all the things that I've done. Right. To prove that God loves me because you've been covered. Yes, I can bring a list of all my needs and all—
David: yes, all my—
Seth: as John says in the beginning, it's all connected, guys. He's like, Christians love to be in the light because they— when they expose their darkness, it allows the light of God's grace and his love to cover it. Like, we love— like, anyway, yeah.
David: If our beloved— verse 21. Oh yeah, I'm going back. But beloved, if our hearts condemn us, Right. God is greater than our hearts. It just goes back to that. It was just like, he is talking to those who feel condemned. Yeah, clearly. So I'm just— I find comfort in that. I think I have a hard time thinking that audience, like receivers of New Testament letters, struggle with that kind of thing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That like, does God really love me? You know, it feels like such a modern problem.
Seth: Right.
David: And such a psychological one. And it's like, Clearly they felt condemned by their own hearts. Sure sounds like what I just described.
Seth: Anyway, he goes on. Yep. He kind of keeps beating the same drum and he's about to escalate it to not just knowing that you— God loves you, but that you've overcome. And he's come back to this theme a couple of times.
David: Yes, yes, yes.
Seth: 5:1. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.
David: Right.
Seth: Said this already. And everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
David: Your fellow Christians.
Seth: And what's funny here is that the word is the same. And everyone who loves the begetter loves those he begat. Like, it's the same— begotten— it's the same Greek word used to describe both God and his children.
David: Ah, yes.
Seth: Which is the same point he's been making the whole time.
David: It's all about abiding in him. A bunch of people abiding in him.
Seth: Yes. Yep. Um, and so, and then he goes, and now by this we know that we love the children of God.
David: Okay. The begotten.
Seth: So think about that. This whole time we have been concerned with how do we know God loves us, right? Now the question is, well, how do we know—
David: how do I know that I'm loving my brother the right way?
Seth: Exactly.
David: Great question. I'm dying for that answer, right?
Seth: And which goes back to what we said at the beginning. It's like redemptive love doesn't exist outside, right, of those filled with the Holy Spirit.
David: You could imagine our podcast listeners going, okay, Seth and David, you guys have set such a high bar for this kind of love that I apparently never did in my entire life, and I can only do under the compulsion of the Spirit, and it must be redemptive and Christlike and self-sacrificial. Have I ever done that one time?
Seth: Uh, yes. And he's so— it's so— yeah, so the question— so he's like, that's the question. How do I know I have actually genuinely loved my brother.
David: That's good.
Seth: Um, here's how. But so just as God's love in Jesus makes us confident in his love, it's our love towards God that makes us confident in our love for others.
David: It's the circle.
Seth: It's the circle. It's back.
David: Just focusing on a different arc of the circle. That's amazing.
Seth: God is— we've confessed him. We love him. He's in us and he's at work in us to make the work of loving others a joy and not a burden, which is the exact next thing he says. Like, when we love God and obey his commandments, and his commandments to love aren't burdensome, are not burdensome. God is—
David: it's not too— it's not too much for you. Like, it's not too hard for you.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, my yoke is easy, my burden light, you know?
Seth: Which then makes me think of like our whole moment when we cried off air before we started here. It's like, well, how do I know I'm loving people? My— how do I know I'm loving you, David? Well, and I feel like I'm just failing. Well, do you love God and do you keep his commandments? And I'm like, I do. Yeah, that's enough, right? And you, you're gonna make it. You're gonna figure it out right on that road as you do that thing.
David: That's right. It's like, as you love God and as you obey his commandments, you will love your neighbor. You will love your brother. You will love David, and David will love Seth as we love God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And then, and then it just eats itself again. It's like, and then as I love Seth, I'm building my confidence that I love God and he loves me. It's just like this beautiful little circle. Yeah.
Seth: It's not passive as if like, no, simply by loving God, I automatically redemptively love.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I've checked the box.
David: I must clearly love my brother.
Seth: It's like that obey the commandments part, which is like that active position, but it's also the active position of Jesus as he obeyed the will of the Father to do what? Be sent to die, to give us life. Right.
David: It's not enough to be like, okay, I finally feel like I have good feelings toward Seth, you know, toward my brother. Like, I feel better about him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What are you doing? It should move you into action. Uh, which I think moving into action in redemptive love leads us to our last verse for today.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Verse 5: Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? So given all the context of everything we've just said, how does believing that Jesus is love, that Jesus is the Son of God, how does that make us overcome the world?
Seth: Ah, for a second I was like, wait, what question are we asking here? Well, maybe he answers it in verse 4. Which we skipped over, but everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world.
David: Oh, what is it? What is the— okay, overcome the world sounds really crazy, right? What is it? What does it mean to overcome the world? I want to— I'm Loki and I want to rule the world.
Seth: Yeah. What does that—
David: what does that look like?
Seth: Our faith.
David: Having faith in Jesus.
Seth: Having faith in the Jesus who redemptively loved us, filled us with his Spirit, empowers us to love and to obey his commandments so that we can know there's no fear. Last day.
David: You have overcome planet Earth.
Seth: You've overcome planet Earth. I mean, what— how would he define the world previously?
David: The lust of the flesh, the pride of eyes. Yeah. You know.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those—
David: the flesh, lust of the eyes, the pride of life.
Seth: And the world is the place where the Antichrist lives.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like the things that are most threatening to true love of God is the love of other things. Yeah. And the anti-love of the Antichrists, the ones that deny that Jesus came in the flesh. So what is love? Like, how do you overcome those forces?
David: Mm.
Seth: By trusting. Believe. By trusting, believing in Jesus. Yeah. And who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
David: No one. No one is, no one overcomes the world except those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Yes. You could think of it like a cosmic battle. That you have the world is, is this huge oppressive force run by sin and Satan animating the Antichrist, you know, like, and we're all squished under it. We can't love, we can't have faith, we can't do anything, we can't do good. You know, we're all squished under it. How can you overcome that? How do you break free from the weight of the world when it's trying to squash you? And your access to God. Have faith in Jesus and you overcome.
Seth: Trust Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Love Jesus.
David: That's it.
Seth: I do think it's interesting that the only other time, as far as my memory serves me now, that he's talked about the world is in a context where it's all about love. The loves of the world. Don't love the world. Loves the world offers you, the desires that it can give you, the lust that it—
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: Yeah. Right.
David: It's like it's at least a dominant theme if it's not every time.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. Yeah, the world offers you poultry loves, false loves, right? Some lust of the— this is good for your flesh, this is good for your eyes, this will make you feel like you have a high position in this world that is squishing you. And it's like all fake, and the world tries to sell you fake loves.
Seth: Yeah, it's like the difference between lusty love and redemptive love. Like, you've got— and like, the lusty love of the world peddled by the Antichrist. Yep. That's all they want to sell you is lusty, passing away, diminishing returns love.
David: It'll keep you under the world.
Seth: But you can overcome that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's a redemptive love offered by Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: That grows and doesn't satisfy and doesn't pass away, but lasts beyond life. Yeah. Yeah.
David: That's good news.
Seth: That's good news.
David: Well, friends, that was a fun episode.
Seth: God is love.
David: God is love. There it is. Uh, we will finish 1 John next week.
Seth: We might have 2 episodes left because we have the end of 1 John and then John 2 and John 3, or 1 John 2 and 1 John 3, which I think probably will be their own episode, but we might get it all done in one. Okay, we'll see.
David: We'll see. Okay, so letters of John coming to a, coming to a close. So be with us next week when he tells us why did, why he wrote this letter.
Seth: Oh yeah.
David: That you may know. You want to know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Next week. There's my teaser.
Seth: And then this is he who came by water and blood.
David: Oh yeah. That's a very debated passage. That's a fun one.
Seth: If you're a Bible nerd.
David: Yeah. And fourth plug, go listen to God is Love.
Seth: Just please go do it.
David: By Chris Renzema. I'll look up right now if I'm allowed to post it at the end of the episode. And if not, if so, you'll hear it. If not, it just goes to our If it just goes to our bumper, go to the show notes.
Seth: Yes. Okay.
David: Well, thanks for listening, everybody, and we'll see you next week.
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit SpokenGospel.com. Or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week.
