Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Welcome.
David: And, uh, we are very excited to be diving into the book of Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Where nothing matters.
David: Where nothing matters. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: We, we've done an introduction episode where we've covered, like, really broad strokes of, like, what is wisdom literature, what is wisdom itself, uh, what are some of the big conceptual categories we should be talking about.
Seth: How does Ecclesiastes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... function within the wisdom literature?
David: Yes, yes.
David: And then we've dipped our toes in the water of hevel, the author.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, like, and by hevel, I mean the word vanity or meaninglessness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or to- or, uh, futility, however your Bible translates it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, we've dipped our toe in the water of under the sun, and of eat and drink, for tomorrow we die, and all that kinda stuff. But, like-
Seth: We have-
David: ... it's time to-
Seth: It's time to get in the weeds
David: ... it's time to get in the weeds.
Seth: It's time to get in the weeds.
David: So, yeah.
Seth: Uh, and I'm really excited about this book-
David: Yes
Seth: ... uh, for a lot of reasons. It's one of the most difficult books I've ever had to-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, wrestle with. And I'm also excited for the way that you'll experience me and David in this podcast-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, because we said last time that the two mistakes that people make when they come to the Book of Ecclesiastes is they either wanna read Qohelet, the author of Ecclesiastes, either as a pessimist or a nihilist, just everything's terrible all the time, always. There's nothing good to do except to eat, drink, and tomorrow we die.
David: Yep.
Seth: Or they wanna read it too optimistically and naively, and say, "Everything's great."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Eat, drink, ju-
David: See, look, yeah, like, he found a way to just eat-
Seth: And-
David: ... and drink and be merry in the midst of all this meaninglessness he saw. So you, no matter any of the bad stuff you see in the world, just be like-
Seth: No matter how bad-
David: ... Snoop on the run
Seth: ... your senioritis is, just-
David: That's right. Just enjoy it
Seth: ... enjoy that last French class.
David: Carpe diem, baby.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: So those are the two mistakes.
David: Right.
Seth: And so what Ecclesiastes wants you to do is wrestle with the promises of God, the goodness of God, and the meaninglessness and the chaos of this life.
David: That's right. And the other thing it wants you to do is it's wanting, it's wanting to take the rigid, seemingly rigid promises of Proverbs-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and wisdom literature as a whole, which says, "If you do good, you'll be blessed. If you do bad, you'll be cursed."
Seth: Right.
David: And it wants to take that and just shove it out into the world and say, like, "Does it work under the sun?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, does this really work in real life? Do good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people, or does that break down?
Seth: Yes.
David: And it, it does. It breaks down.
Seth: And it-
David: We all know it breaks down.
Seth: We all know it breaks down.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what I lo- what I'm really excited about is you'll ex- David and I kinda land on either side of the nihilistic, optimistic spectrum.
David: We ki- yeah, well, we're kind of in the middle. We're both in the middle, but I lean more pessimistically.
Seth: And I lean a little bit more optimistically.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think we're, we're not gonna try to solve that tension-
David: Nope
Seth: ... by saying, "No, no, you need to see it my way," which is sometimes something we do, but we're just gonna let you experience our differing perspectives, 'cause I think that's what Ecclesiastes is inviting you to do. Like, how do you engage faithfully in a world of hevel?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Of a world of smoke.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, so that's... We'll s- get there in a second.
David: Yes.
Seth: So before we s- say that, who wrote Ecclesiastes, and why is it important?
David: Yeah, so, I mean, there, there's a couple, there's a couple traditions broadly speaking. I'm gonna speak as broadly as possible. There is the, I would call it, the extremely conservative position, of which I am not far from-
Seth: Right
David: ... I would say-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that says Solomon wrote it. It makes a lot of sense that Solomon would write this book. I mean, uh, he's a wise man who asked for wisdom and got it. Uh, in-
Seth: He calls himself the son of David, a king in Jerusalem.
David: Yeah, so he's a son of David, yeah, in, in, uh, in, in chapter 1, verse 12, "I, the preacher, have been king over Israel in Jerusalem." It's like, well-
Seth: The-
David: ... he's a son of David, who's wise, who's a king.
Seth: The life he narrates seems awfully similar.
David: Seems very similar to some of the things Solomon did.
Seth: Yep.
David: So, like, there is... If you wanna believe that Solomon wrote this book, which I kind of do-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I'll just show my cards, uh, then that's great. But it would just be ir- I just, I, me and Seth were talking, and I was like, "It would be irresponsible of us to just say that's who wrote it." Because, one, he's not actually named in the book.
Seth: Nope.
David: Uh, and two, there are just too many scholars out there that we trust that don't endorse that view. And s- and, and three, and more importantly than all of those, is that's not the name that the book-
Seth: Yes
David: ... itself gives us, that it wants us to attach meaning to.
Seth: Right. So e- even at the end of Ecclesiastes, in 12:9, uh, you have this, like, third party that comes in and says, "Besides being wise, the preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing, and studying, and arranging many proverbs with great care." So it could be Solomon.
David: Yep.
Seth: Or it could be somebody looking at all of Solomon's writings or the wisdom literature in general-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and combining them at a much later date.
David: Right.
Seth: But the important part is, is the author never identifies himself purposely. He doesn't call himself Solomon. He calls himself Qohelet.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Or the preacher or the teacher, and that's significant because, like we said back in the introduction, that has these really imp- in the biblical story, at important points in Israel's history, very specific people are called the Qohelet.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they're normally the leaders of Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: Kingly, priestly leaders, judges, people within Israel at specific mo- moments of rescue and salvation.
David: Yes.
Seth: So Israel, oh, sorry, uh, Moses was a Qohelet as he led them out-
David: Mm
Seth: ... led them out of Egypt.
David: Jacob, the son of Abraham, bir- or, you know, the grandson of Abraham-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... birthed the qahal of Israel, the community, the gathered ones of Israel.
Seth: Qohelet means-
David: David was-
Seth: We should probably say that again.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like, means the convener or the gatherer-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the, a qahal is the gathered people.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh-
David: And so David was a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Qohelet.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He gathered the qahal of Israel.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, so, like, again and again and again. And so, so there's this, there's this-Paradigm of a kingly leader who gathers together and instructs the people of God-
Seth: In wisdom
David: ... in wisdom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, whether that's Moses giving the Torah or this person here. [laughs]
Seth: Or even the pastor of your church. So eccl- ecclesi, uh, an-
David: An ecclesiology
Seth: ... an ecclesiology means the study of the church. An ecclesia is a church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: An Ecclesiastes is the preacher of the church.
David: Yes.
Seth: So there's-
David: That's where the, this name comes from.
Seth: That's the, that's where the, and it's the Greek translation of kahal.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or koheleth.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's a ga- the gather, the gathering.
Seth: Yeah, the gatherer-
David: The gathering one. Yeah
Seth: ... and the gatherer, and the wise one-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who is dispensing wisdom.
David: Exactly. So that's, so like, that's what we need to know. A-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, and immediately it should set up an expectation for us.
Seth: Right. The, and the expectation is that this wisdom isn't just for the people of Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as o- one more kahaler in a long string of kahalers. This is like messianic kahaling.
David: Mm.
Seth: Messianic gathered wisdom for-
David: Which is, yeah
Seth: ... more people than just its original audience.
David: And I would say we, we know that because of the anonymity.
Seth: Yes.
David: I would say the anonymity of the author identifying h- himself conceptually as the kahaler, who no one does in all of scripture except him.
Seth: Right.
David: Um-
Seth: He's tapping into-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a Hebrew-
David: A tradition
Seth: ... an, a tradition in the Hebrew imagination, who knows, like, kahalers are important people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're wise, important people. They speak to the whole nation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and they ch- instruct us on the right way to see the world and act in the world.
David: Yes. So yeah, so we should be expecting that with all the questions left unanswered in Ecclesiastes, that there would be a new final kahaler to bring the people of God, the kahal, the ecclesia of God together, and m- and answer these questions.
Seth: Yes.
David: And Ecclesiastes expects that person to come.
Seth: Yes.
David: He expects the justice of God to come, which we'll talk about in a later episode.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So-
Seth: That's exactly right
David: ... that's all, all we can, that's maybe not all we should say, but it's all we can say, really.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, about this.
Seth: At, at least we feel comfortable saying. [laughs]
David: That we feel comfortable saying. So that's, that's very good.
Seth: So that's the author.
David: That's the author.
Seth: And his main point-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the book is that the world-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is hevel. It's vanity, it's futile, futile, it's meaningless.
David: And I think, I think we can, we can sharpen the knife on that a little bit.
Seth: Okay.
David: We can, we can narrow the point. He, he asked the question, he, he sets out his thesis statement.
Seth: Okay.
David: Like his, uh, abstract at the top of a paper.
Seth: Okay.
David: What are you gonna write about ka- ka- kahal?
Seth: Right.
David: And he says in verse three, "What does man gain by all the toil at which he toils under the sun?" That's his, that's the question-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Ecclesiastes is trying to answer, and before it is the answer itself. So he says, "Vanity, vanity, hevel hevelim." Right? Which is a superlative.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Best of the best is what this is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Hevel hevelim, vanity of vanities.
Seth: All is.
David: Futil- futility of futilities.
Seth: All is-
David: Smoke of smoke
Seth: ... futility.
David: Everything is futile, right?
Seth: And let's talk about that three for a second.
David: Okay. Yes, yes.
Seth: So the, another reason why, besides the fact that it's the thesis statement, is remember, we have a very wise, intelligent person writing this. So-
David: Very much so
Seth: ... there's actually 200, precisely 222 verses in Ecclesiastes, and it is divided into two parts-
David: And-
Seth: ... of 111.
David: And before, before people go, "The verses were added later-"
Seth: Right
David: ... you have to, th- this was Hebrew poetry that actually did have structure to it.
Seth: Yes. So there's like-
David: So, so yes, you're right that normally you wouldn't wanna be even thinking about verses-
Seth: Right
David: ... because they were added much later. This is different.
Seth: But there's 222 poetic couplets.
David: There you go.
Seth: And right in the middle at 111, you have a s- significant break in topic between the two sections.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what's fascinating-
David: Right in the middle.
Seth: Right [laughs] right in the middle, you have a repetition-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of this phrase, "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity." And even more fascinatingly, the word hevel in Hebrew has a numerical value.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I forget what the name is. Gematria? What's the name of-
David: Yeah, yeah, Gematria.
Seth: Gematria. Essentially-
David: Hebrew num- Hebrew numerology.
Seth: Right. So every letter in Hebrew is also a number.
David: Yes.
Seth: So e- like, we, we like, yeah, we just did the escape room where-
David: Yes
Seth: ... there's like every letter is also a number.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So A is one.
David: A is one.
Seth: B is two.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, C is three.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway, the numerical value of the word hevel is 37, and twice, actually three times in the book, you have the same phrase repeated, "Hevel of hevel, everything is hevel." 37 times three-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... is 111. Which is like, okay, that sounds a little strange, but it's not. 37 is the numerical value of hevel times three-
David: Which is-
Seth: ... which we're told three times, to multiply it by three, gets us halfway. And the word hevel is used exactly 37 times-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the entire book.
David: That is what, that's the clincher.
Seth: That's the clincher.
David: 37 times, he uses a 37 numerical value word to total up to the number of y- of couplets in the, in the book.
Seth: Yes. It's-
David: It's, it's ridiculous
Seth: ... it's crazy how brilliant this mind was.
David: Yes. A- and, and there's a point to this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This isn't just to go like-
Seth: It's not
David: ... "Isn't that dope?"
Seth: It's not, yeah.
David: Like, "The Da Vinci Code, y'all." Like, no.
Seth: Right.
David: The point is that there's a literary point being made-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with this, that inside a book of smoke and misunderstanding, and a lack of structure, and a lack of reliability-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... there's structure.
Seth: There's a solidity.
David: And intentionality, and solidity.
Seth: There's a solidity inside-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the hevel itself.
David: Which I believe bucks against people who wanna say that this, that Ecclesiastes are just the, um, sad musings-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of an old man-
Seth: Right
David: ... who just is rambling, and he's sad. No, he's calculated and careful, and he crafted this book over-
Seth: He's used math, guys. [laughs]
David: He's used math. Now, and, and, like, and we should not be surprised, like, that would take a brilliant literary mind to do that. Well, we're told if this is Solomon, that there was never a man wiser.
Seth: Right.
David: He asked for divine wisdom and got it from Yahweh.
Seth: Yes.
David: So like, yeah, he was super smart. [laughs]
Seth: He was really smart.
David: So yeah.
Seth: I try to think of, like, ways to make a book, like, doing something similar in English.
David: Yes.
Seth: I'm like, I have no, I don't even know how to start.
David: How am I gonna do that? Yeah.
Seth: Like, if the main point of my book was... fruit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't even know how to, like, make fruit so integral to the thing-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that it's, like, also secret and hidden. Like, I was like, "I have no idea how to do this thing." Anyway, it's brilliant.
David: Yes.
Seth: And there's ins- so what is hevel? So if hevel is that central-
David: Yes, if hevel is that central, we should understand what it is.
Seth: So I think we said in the introduction that the prime, two primary metaphors that is used, uh, in Ecclesiastes-
David: Wind
Seth: ... is wind, striving after wind.
David: Like, y- yeah, can you chase after wind? Can you grab wind?
Seth: Can you put wind in a bottle?
David: No.
Seth: No.
David: Do you know where it comes from, or where it's going, or why it's here? No.
Seth: No. And it, and the other one is smoke, which is not in the text itself.
David: I was like, yeah, that's not in the text.
Seth: But it's what the word literally means. So if you have-
David: Sometimes
Seth: ... sometimes.
David: I'm gonna push against you on that a little bit.
Seth: But-
David: It's not in the text, and it's not what the word always literally means.
Seth: But it's helpful in the sense-
David: It's a helpful image
Seth: ... that smoke-
David: I wouldn't put it on the same plane as wind
Seth: ... smoke and wind-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... are both things that are there and are not there.
David: And are not there. [laughs]
Seth: Smoke looks solid.
David: And you can reach out, I can reach out and grab it, and as soon as you do, it's gone. Slips through your fingers.
Seth: Wind can tear off roofs.
David: Yes.
Seth: It can decimate homes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It can destroy beaches, but you cannot catch it in a bottle.
David: Nope.
Seth: Wind is there-
David: And not there
Seth: ... and it is not there.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like, so some, the, our friends at the Bible Project, they call it a, an enigma.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's a puzzle. It's an expectation that's constantly unmet.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and what Qoheleth is saying is that the wisdom that he, the central point that he wants to make is that life on this earth is like that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's a series of unmet expectations. It looks like one thing, but always turns out to be another.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That no matter what we work to achieve, it always underperforms for us.
David: Yes. Now-
Seth: It never gives us what we desire.
David: Now, without, and we're gonna do this throughout the, the rest of this series. I'm not gonna say that I don't agree with Seth. I do.
Seth: Mm.
David: But I'm gonna highlight the other side-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of what hevel means. So when you look at the question, what does man gain by all his toil at which he toils under the sun? And like, smoke would be a really good answer to that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I feel like I had a house, and a family, and I, you know, had a promotion, and m- you know, made a legacy for myself. No, it's smoke. You thought it was there, and it's really not. You know, but another way to look at it, which is how your Bibles are probably translating it, is vanity or meaninglessness or fu- I, my favorite's futility, that it's just, it's futile. It has no bottom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it do- it can't hold, you know? You're pouring water into a bucket without a bottom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just futile. Like, what's the point? And it, it is supposed to be that, like, a- and you'll see this. You'll see this cumulative argument build multiple times throughout the book, and then come crashing down. He'll go, "I compared wisdom and folly," and we're gonna read that here in a little bit. "I compare wisdom and folly, and I realized that, you know, it's probably better to be wise. But in the end, both the wise and the fool both die." Hevel.
Seth: Hevel.
David: It's, that's, so what was the point of my wisdom? It was meaningless. It was futile, wasn't it?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like-
Seth: There's no, there was no real, it was-
David: Benefit
Seth: ... benefit to it.
David: So, so the word, so like, yeah, so y- y- so toil, toil there is a, um-
Seth: You mean in verse three?
David: In verse three.
Seth: What does man... So if you're, you're, 'cause you're saying one of the central questions of the book of Ecclesiastes, "Well, what do we do with our life on this earth?" What does man gain-
David: What does man gain?
Seth: ... by all the toil-
David: Yes
Seth: ... at which he toils under the sun?
David: So this question is, is using, uh, economic language. So gain is this idea of profit.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, like, what, at the end of the day, what could I put on my ledger sheet at the end of my life that I said, "I did something with my life"?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, what could I gain? Nothing.
Seth: Futility.
David: You can spend your whole life doing everything you want, and at the end, it's a net zero.
Seth: And it should point you back to the Garden of Eden from the word toil.
David: Correct.
Seth: So this, this is what God cursed man with.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's like, "You will toil on the ground." And so he's like, he's going, like, he's describing the cursed world.
David: This is the cursed world he is describing, yeah.
Seth: That outside the Garden of Eden, all of our efforts dissolve.
David: Net zero. Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, and think about it. What does God say i- in that same curse? "From the ground you came, to the dirt you will return. From the dirt you came, to the dirt you will return."
Seth: And that's repeated here in Ecclesiastes-
David: That's exactly right
Seth: ... from dust to dust.
David: It's, it's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... vanity.
Seth: It's vanity.
David: You came from the dust, you'll return to the dust. You're gonna toil, it's gonna get you right back where you came from. Deal with it.
Seth: That's his conclusion.
David: Yep.
Seth: Of-
David: He's observing the curse.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's really interesting.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that's helpful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that, that, and we talked a little bit about the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in our introduction.
Seth: Yep.
David: I think it's interesting that Ecclesiastes is observing life under the f- under the curse-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but giving us a glimpse of what life could look like back in Eden.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right. And, like, even, uh, kind of like the, the promised land kind of idea. It's like this is what your life could look like in the middle of a cursed world-
David: That's right
Seth: ... as well.
David: Yes.
Seth: Not just what it will look like when the Lord-
David: When he comes
Seth: ... returns, but what does the good life look like in the middle of a cursed world? What does the, part, the kingdom come-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but not yet.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, what ha-
David: Already, not yet.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: So we got his question and his conclusion.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But let's actually s- figure out how he actually got there. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we've heard Qohelet's initial question that, that he's gonna try to answer in this book, which is, what does man gain by all his toil, which he toils under the sun? And we've heard his answer to that question. It's like, book over. No. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And he gives a question, "Vanity of vanities, everything is vanity. It's all smoke. It's all chasing after the wind." Okay. Uh, how does he then introduce us to, like, get on board with his argument-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and his conclusion?
Seth: What he does is he kinda makes you take stock of what you already know about the natural world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and how it behaves.
David: He's like, "Look around. I'm gonna prove it to you that just by the observable way the world works, that everything is meaningless." So, like, let's look at some of them.
Seth: A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the Earth remains forever. Basically, human legacies all die, but the ground is still there.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, the sun rises and the sun goes down. It hastens to the place where it rises. So it's like, it goes up, it comes down-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and it comes back right around again. Like-
David: It's just a cycle
Seth: ... cycle, over, over. Nothing ever moves. Nothing rotates. Nothing m- moves forward. It's the same thing-
David: Over and over
Seth: ... every time. Nothing.
David: Yep.
Seth: The wind blows to the south, and then comes around to the north, and around and around goes the wind, and on its circuits, the wind returns.
David: It j- it's just a cycle.
Seth: It's a cycle.
David: Yep.
Seth: Everything's the same. All streams run to the sea, but the sea is never full. I think this is one of my favorite ones-
David: It's a good one
Seth: ... because it gets to, like, the point he makes a little bit later-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but nothing's satisfying-
David: Right
Seth: ... nothing gives you what you want. All streams run to the sea, and have you noticed? The sea never fills up-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to the place where the streams flow, and if you go all the way back up to the source of the streams, they just all start flowing. They never stop.
David: Right.
Seth: What-
David: Everything's this cyclical pattern of incessant repetition.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like you're trapped in Groundhog Day.
Seth: It's-
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah. Groundhog Day.
David: Yeah, it's just like everything's the same over and over and over again, and if everything's the same, and it can't change, and it can't fill up, and it can't alter, then it's vanity. It's futile and pointless.
Seth: And he says it this way. I l- I love this line, too. "And all things are full of weariness."
David: Yes.
Seth: "A man cannot utter it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear satisfied with hearing." It's l- like, the world is weary.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, could you imagine doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over-
David: Right
Seth: ... and over and over again?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Of course you can't. It's exhausting.
David: It's exhausting. It's beyond our comprehension.
Seth: And that's the way we live.
David: Yep. Now-
Seth: Aren't you tired-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... all the time?
David: Aren't you tired all the time?
Seth: Isn't it when somebody asks you how you're doing, you say you're busy and you're tired, and those two answers never change? [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like... [laughs]
David: Yes. [laughs] Um, what's interesting here is how Qohelet goes out of his way to use images and the way he talks about those images to counteract probably his dad, David-
Seth: Oh, fascinating
David: ... and how he wrote about them in the Psalms.
Seth: Oh.
David: It's very interesting, so li- listen to some of these.
Seth: So this is Solomon. He's, like, rebuking his father.
David: If this is Solomon, he's rebuking his own father's literature.
Seth: Wow, okay. Okay.
David: This is very interesting.
Seth: Okay.
David: Psalm 19:5, "The sun is a strong man running its race with vigor."
Seth: Hmm.
David: Right? It's like it's got a point. It's a strong man. It sets out in the sky. He, like, he-
Seth: He's conquering something every day
David: ... and it causes, it causes David to rejoice in God and see him in his handiwork and his purposes all throughout Psalm 19.
Seth: Hmm.
David: And he says, no, it's just this weary... It ta- it, it wearily pants, is the, is another translation. It wearily pants toward a pointless cycle.
Seth: Wow.
David: Okay, Psalm 104:3-4, "God directs the wind as his messenger to accomplish his purposes." Ecclesiastes 1:6, 6, "The wind goes around and around in monotonous repetition with no purpose stated."
Seth: Right.
David: Psalm 104:10-11, "Rivers are sent to give animals drinks and grow grass, and they're sent by God." Ecclesiastes 1:7, "Rivers don't accomplish anything." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] So everything that David saw purpose, intention, life in, his son is saying, "Dad, it's, Dad, Dad, come on, Dad."
David: Okay, boomer. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Uh, that's funny.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what is, like, what a, what, like, a classic son response.
David: Isn't it?
Seth: But also really true at the same time.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, where his dad saw purpose, he's saying, but the other side of that coin is-
David: There's another side of the coin
Seth: ... is it really purposeful if it happens every day on repeat?
David: Yes.
Seth: What-
David: This, this is biblical wisdom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Because you need both sides, or you're not wise.
Seth: Hmm.
David: Like, you need-
Seth: Right
David: ... to be able to look at a sun, you know, not directly-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs] And, and see the power and purpose of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and provision and that it's just the right distance away. Like, you need-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to know those things, but you also need to see that, like, the sun's decaying, and it's cyclical, and we're, we're heading towards a terminus, and everything has entropy. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you need both to be wise.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's... You need David and Solomon, if you will.
Seth: That's interesting.
David: Heads and tails.
Seth: I like that.
David: So anyway.
Seth: I like that.
David: And then with the, the, you know, you have the speech, eyes, and ears pointed out-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in 1:8. Uh, and he says, "The mouth can't say enough. The eyes can't see enough. The ears can't hear enough." It seems that the very grounding for this whole book is said to be wearisome and futile from the outset because what does he use to write? He's using his speech, right?
Seth: Right.
David: To say what his eyes have seen and his ears have heard, and he's like, "Even this very book is not going to be able to accomplish the purpose of what I feel because-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... they're weary already, and I can't even tell you how empty I am because my mouth can never say enough to express it." Like, so it's like after verse 8, you're like, "Just close the book," right? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like, what's the point? But it is, it's just very, and everything is rushing towards changeless oblivion. Like-That's a great way to start a book.
Seth: That is a great way to start the book. And what's fascinating, even like scientific methodology or scientific like theories, up until this, I think the '50s-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the 40 or 50s, was that the universe was eternal.
David: Right.
Seth: It was, it like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, the fact that it had a beginning felt like a concession to theists who say, "If it has a beginning, God must have started it."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the, the reigning theory for a long time was like, the universe is just eternal.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's static, unmoving, or if it is moving, it's just slowly moving in one direction and never changing anything around us.
David: Right. And now we have all these concepts of entropy and everything like that.
Seth: Right. Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah. So, uh, wh- why is this important? And, and more, more importantly, I think we know why it's important for Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's setting up his theme. He's saying, he's about to tell us his own experience.
Seth: Yeah, he-
David: He's about to walk us through his own pragmatic experience and say, "I discovered this for myself, but you should know this just by looking through the world."
Seth: Right. You can look at the world and see the futility, see like the judgment-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the fact that, not just God's purposes, but his judgment on your weary life.
David: Yeah. But why is it important for the gospel?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like why is this important for the gospel? Like immediately what comes to my mind is good news, 'cause like I'm just like, "I need some good news here."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Is like, when I think about everything's a cycle, nothing accomplishes anything, everything gets old and dies, and it starts again, but it's, you, you don't get to be a part of it. You know, it's like everything's heading towards entropy, and it's meaningless and pointless. I just think of several things.
Seth: Mm.
David: One, I think about the storyline of the Bible itself-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and how it is cyclical. The Old Testament is cyclical, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It keeps repeating the same story of like God's grace, and he is, he tries to work with his people, they fall away, so he punishes them and then brings them back, and it's just over, it's the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... over and over and over and over again. It's the Exodus over and over. And then this man Jesus comes, and he fulfills all the cycles, and the cycles stop. Like, they find their peace in him. All the promises of God find their yes and amen in Christ. Like, he stops the meaningless, whirring wheels-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of like the, the trap we've set for ourself that we can't get out of.
Seth: I like the way, I th- when I read this, I thought about Romans 8.
David: Mm.
Seth: We know the whole world has been groaning.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's tired.
David: It's, it's a weary world.
Seth: It's exhausted at the cyclical labor pains that happen.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what Qohelet's pointing at, like what Qo- I think maybe another way to say what Qohelet's doing is like this groaning-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... should point us to the ul- the what we need.
David: Yes.
Seth: The sun.
David: The sun.
Seth: Like the sun, uh, the, the s- God coming.
David: Yes.
Seth: But like I think like, this is what I thought of, like the world is weary, the world is groaning, and it's waiting for the redemption, the adoption of the sons of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's waiting for the Lord to be revealed-
David: Mm
Seth: ... on the Earth.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The whole world is smoke. We need something solid.
David: Solid. Yeah.
Seth: That's what we need. Um, and I think you're primed for that. If the world is pointless, we n- if the world is smoke, if the world is all wind, we need something that can't be moved.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We need a rock. We need something solid.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's what he, that's what I think Ecclesiastes is calling us to want.
David: Yes.
Seth: I've, I've heard people make that point before, and I'm not found it compelling, but I think it's true, like Ecclesiastes w- is, wants to make us want something.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I think that's it, solidity in a world of chaos.
David: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Seth: Stabili- like a telos, like an end point-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in a world that's always cyclical.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh-
David: Which I think is, is what's amazing about the gospel story, is Jesus comes, and he goes to this place that is the great equalizer of Ecclesiastes, that everything's headed towards entropy. He goes to entropy's utter end. He goes to the grave.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he raises to life and breaks the cycle.
Seth: Yes.
David: But then points us forward to a future, and when that future comes, what's disrupted? All throughout Jesus' ministry when he talks apocalyptically, i- what's in the prophets, what's in Revelation, what's in 2 Thessalonians, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the natural order, this cycle of the natural order that is incessantly grinding to a halt, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is just interrupted, and there's no longer any moon, and there's no longer any star-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like any sun.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: The sun goes away, and we don't need lamps or light or anything like that. We don't need the sea anymore, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... the, which is this chaos monster that the Old Testament loves to talk about represented as the sea. Anyway, Jesus comes, and he is our light every second of every day, and this cycle that never goes anywhere finally finds shalom and peace and rest-
Seth: And light, yeah
David: ... in just the presence of Jesus with us in the new heavens and the new Earth.
Seth: And what's funny about that, and we'll get here in just a moment, is like, uh, s- the s- the author, Qohelet, Solomon, talks about the futility, the circularity of life as meaningless, but like eternity-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like living forever, well, isn't that just an endless cycle of things?
David: It's not. But it's not, right? It wouldn't be-
Seth: Isn't eternal life a s- endless cycle? 'Cause-
David: And that's why people don't wanna be a part of it.
Seth: Right, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so many people don't wanna be a part of eternal life. They're like, "Well, if it's just this all over again."
David: Because people can only conceive of eternity as a circularity.
Seth: Hm.
David: Right? Which would seem futile.
Seth: Right.
David: But it's like in Jesus, it's one holy moment. Like [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or it's some concept of-
Seth: It's like it's-
David: ... linearness that we can. And we're gonna talk about our broken relationship with time when we get to Ecclesiastes 3.
Seth: Oh, I'm so excited.
David: It's so, it is so good.
Seth: Okay. We, I think we've covered this section.
David: We've covered this. Let's move on.
Seth: Let's move on. [gentle music] Okay, so after Qohelet invites us to see the vanity, the futility, the hevel-
David: To s- to see the world through his eyes. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, he, he invites us then to look at his own life-
David: Yep
Seth: ... as further proof-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that the world is fully hevel, and the way that he does that isn't by just showing you a sad story. It's by running a series of experiments.
David: Yes.
Seth: So here's what he says in verse 13. Uh, "And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom... everything that is done under heaven. So he's using all this divine wisdom to figure out the world underneath him, and then he concludes, "It is an unhappy business that the, that God has given to his children of man to be busy with. I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, it's all hevel, a striving after the wind."
David: Yes. So he's going, yeah, so he's inviting us into this experiment that he's going to do.
Seth: It's like, "Here's all the things I did under the sun."
David: Yeah. So he's about to in, we- we're about to enter into basically what is his autobiography. He's gonna tell us about different things he went and did, but one thing that we need to talk about before we jump in there, because this is, like, a really intense statement for h- for him to say, that it is an unhappy business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. Like, I thought God was, like, good and wanted to-
Seth: Right
David: ... give us good things. And like, we'll get there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... obviously, but it's like, this seems to be his conclusion. Um, and here's why this conclusion is bleak, but also not as bleak as it seems. It's because he set his wisdom to search out what happens under heaven, or under the sun.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which is, it, this is a huge statement.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we, we, how many times was hevel used? 30-
Seth: 37.
David: 37? Under the sun, um, is used 29 times, not counting its parallels, like under heaven.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's, like, almost used just as much.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So under the sun is this ver- or upon the earth, under heaven, is used constantly throughout the book to point to a limiting factor that Qohelet has put on his experiment. So if you go watch our spoken gospel introduction video-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... on this, you'll see this kind of professor walk up to a chalkboard and draw a line through the middle of the chalkboard, and it's like he's limiting his vision to what only happens under the sun.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what I mean by that is we have to understand, uh, uh, the, the Hebrew mind and how it viewed cosmology, like the heavens and the earth. Like, this is-
Seth: It's like, it's useful meta- it's like a metaphor-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for how he's actually functioning. So really there was the heavens-
David: There was the heavens
Seth: ... and the earth.
David: Yes. And there was the, yeah, that's right. There was the heavens, which was, like, where the stars are.
Seth: Which they, which a lot of people believe to be divine beings-
David: Right
Seth: ... or gods.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's where God lives.
David: That's where Go- that's where the gods live.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then there's the highest heavens-
Seth: Which is-
David: ... which is where Yahweh lived, right? So there's three layers.
Seth: Yeah. And then on the earth-
David: On the earth, yeah
Seth: ... is everything else.
David: Is where we are. And he goes, "I'm going to just look down."
Seth: Right.
David: "And I'm going to see, can this make sense? Can I make sense of this world without looking up to heaven?"
Seth: Which is actually really fascinating because in our worldview, that's so common.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's, uh, I think, uh, we c- talk about, like, uh, somebody said, like, there's a brass dome over the heavens.
David: Hmm.
Seth: For like, a modern mind, all there ever is is what's on the earth.
David: Right.
Seth: And there's no divine intervention ever. But for the ancient mind, that brass dome never existed.
David: No.
Seth: Like, there is, was a, a-
David: Permeability
Seth: ... a permeability. Like, every physical action was tied by a puppet string to some spiritual force in the heavens, and everything on the earth had a spiritual counterpart in the heavens.
David: Yes. So for Qohelet to come along and sever those strings with a knife-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and to just say, "Nope, I'm just gonna look at under heaven."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, wait, what?
Seth: It's actually a pretty radical-
David: A radical viewpoint
Seth: ... type o- ty- like, type of piece of literature-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for the time period at all.
David: Yes.
Seth: One nuance I'll add to that, it's not like he forgets there's a God.
David: No.
Seth: It's, th- we mentioned this in the introduction, like, what that can make it sound like is that, well, we have now an ancient secularist who refuses to acknowledge God. No. He's taking the evidence at hand without reference to God and then says, "This is why this doesn't make sense without God."
David: Right.
Seth: And he says it over and over again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, heaven must break down for this to make sense.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Heaven must break down for this to make sense.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, yeah.
David: And he'll give us those little peeks up into heaven, be like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "You know, but God is going to do this." But then what he never does is he never brings God down under heaven or un- onto the earth to solve the problem.
Seth: Not until the last verse.
David: Uh, w- with-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the epilogue.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Which isn't him, which isn't Qohelet.
Seth: Oh, the, the editor.
David: That, that's the editor.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Which is, so my s- my point stands.
Seth: Right. Well, the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... point of the book-
David: But the point of the book.
Seth: Yes.
David: But I'm saying Qohelet as a character-
Seth: Yes, yes, yes
David: ... he, he has this constant goal, and I think it's a good goal, to show us that, like, unless you allow God to actually come in and affect the way you view life, it's, everything's gonna be meaningless.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so the first experiment he does-
David: The first experiment
Seth: ... is wisdom specifically, wisdom in and of itself.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, and he says, uh, "I applied," verse 17, "I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly."
David: Yes.
Seth: "And I perceived that this also is but a striving after wind."
David: Such a strange statement, because if you, if you were approaching this from the mindset of, say, the authors of Proverbs-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's pursue wisdom, love wisdom, be intimate with wisdom, walk with wisdom, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, stay away from folly. Don't think about it. Don't look at it. Don't touch it with a 10-foot pole.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: And what Qohelet's saying is-
David: I'm gonna run after both of them
Seth: ... "And I'm gonna do both with wisdom. I'm gonna pursue wisdom with wisdom, and I'm gonna analyze folly with wisdom."
David: He's not, no, no, no. He's not just gonna analyze. He's going to entwine himself with folly wisely.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause he does. He's about to tell us how he does that.
Seth: And I wanna qualify that word wisely, 'cause if we are talking about-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... Solomon-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as the wisest person-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... what we mean by wisely is almost, like, exhaustively. Because think about Solomon's life. He, like, we, he, we're about to describe s- his self-indulgent lifestyle.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's ha- has 100,000 concubines.
David: Yep. 700 or something.
Seth: Se- like, dozens and dozens of wives. And so p- to pursue that many women with wisdom is c- is actually counter to what the Bible calls wisdom.
David: Right.
Seth: Because wisdom would be to have one wife. [laughs]
David: Yeah. Well, yeah, but there's a difference between a holy wisdom that i-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that, that shares God's mind-
Seth: Yes
David: ... right, and an earthly craftiness-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that understands how to, uh, short the stock market.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? Like, that's like-That's, that's some wisdom-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but it's not holy. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's almost if, if he's taking the gift that God has given him-
David: And using it for folly
Seth: ... and using it for folly.
David: Correct.
Seth: And so what that means is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is that he is uniquely positioned to examine folly, entwine himself with folly, and see its brokenness and its, and its blessings, if there are any.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So most objectively.
David: Well, and I think another thing to say is if, if he was going to pursue folly wisely, he is going to do it better than anyone. I feel like people would be like, you know, like, "Oh, sure, money doesn't satisfy, but you don't know how to spend money right."
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: It's like, "If I had the money, I would buy better wine," and, uh, or, or, or like-
Seth: It's like, "I'd invest it smarter."
David: Yes.
Seth: "I'd build better."
David: Right.
Seth: "My legacy would be longer."
David: It's like, no, no, no, no, no.
Seth: "I'd have foundations."
David: No one... Yeah.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: No one pursued folly better than Qohelet. Like-
Seth: That's the point he's making
David: ... that's the point he's making. He's like, "Guys, there's the best life you could possibly live. I had more money than anyone, more opulence than anyone, more power than anyone. I could do anything I wanted, and we'll see." As he, we talk about pleasure, I gave it, I gave myself to it fully.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Let's just name-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so, so he said, so wisdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he's like, "I did this with wisdom." And he said, "With much wisdom is much vexation, and he who increases in knowledge increases sorrow."
David: Yes.
Seth: So he says, "The pursuit of wisdom is only ever gonna make you sad."
David: Yes.
Seth: And he actually doesn't pick up this theme for a while.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But, like, it's like, it's like wisdom doesn't deliver the way that you think it is.
David: That's right.
Seth: And I think there's people who, like, idolize intellect, idolize-
David: Philosophy
Seth: ... philosophy.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh, and philosophy just means loving wisdom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Lover of wisdom is a philosopher.
David: Right, but if you love wisdom in and of itself terminally-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it is hevel.
Seth: It's hevel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It just produces-
David: That's right
Seth: ... you think it's gonna bring you s- happiness and enlightenment.
David: Yep.
Seth: It just brings sorrow.
David: Wisdom under the sun-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right, never atta- uh, attaches you back to he who is the wisest.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, wisdom is meant to lead you to intimacy with God, and to just pursue wisdom, to know how to act perfectly in every situation, is still completely futile.
Seth: It's, it's like in The Good Place, the, that, that, AB, NBC, uh-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... comedy. Chidi is a moral philosopher.
David: Right.
Seth: And the joke throughout the entire series is moral philosophers are the worst people to hang out with. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: 'Cause, like, no, like, they spend their whole life studying what to do and what is right, and he's paralyzed.
David: He can't make a decision.
Seth: He can never make his decision because always running through all the possible ways that you could justify one action or another.
David: With more, with more wisdom came maddening folly.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: The smarter he became, the more crippled he became to make any kind of decision whatsoever, which is why they say, "The more you know, the more you know that you don't know."
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: The more I, when, like, which is why, like, we'll read, you know, between the two of us, like, four to eight books-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... before we jump into a podcast, and that's wh- as we go, "Man, there are some diverse opinions on here." But if we read even wider, especially outside of maybe evangelical circles-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, which we'll do occasionally, we realize, like, "Whoa, I didn't even think about that."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And, like, you almost wanna stop because you're like, "I'll never be able to think through this at all if I let every-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... single voice who's ever thought about this speak into it."
Seth: Right.
David: It's just like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it would be maddening folly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like even in Bible study-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if that was my point, was to perfectly know the Bible, I would f- I, it would be-
Seth: Every possible interpretation-
David: It would be maddening folly
Seth: ... of every, yeah.
David: I'd never be able to do it under the sun.
Seth: Under the sun.
David: But if I was using it to connect to God. So, like, anyway, let's-
Seth: Right
David: ... let's think about, like, pursuing wisdom, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And maddening folly, and, like, why, like, how do we see the gospel in this?
Seth: Oh, okay.
David: Like, I mean, we talked in the introduction, which I thought was, like, one of the most helpful times I've ever thought about this, a- um, as pursuing wisdom is pursuing Christ. To get wisdom is to get Christ.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, we, I, I think maybe it's just simplest to say when you're pursuing wisdom, like when you want to know what God wants of you, when you wanna read your Bible, when you want to better yourself or sharpen your mind, what's the, what's the point? What are you aiming at?
Seth: Well, I would say-
David: Right?
Seth: ... log that question away-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because Qohelet gives you an answer to that question at the end of the other two experiments.
David: Cliffhanger.
Seth: Cliffhanger.
David: All right.
Seth: So that's the que- that's the, keep that question in your mind.
David: Okay.
Seth: What are we supposed to do with all this hevel?
David: Yes.
Seth: How are we supposed to pursue, what are we supposed to do in a world of hevel?
David: With, yes.
Seth: Uh, so if wisdom can't do it, well, what about pleasure?
David: Yes, which we've hinted at now a little bit.
Seth: Yeah, and it's a long list-
David: It's a long list
Seth: ... of the accomplishments he was able to do in his lifetime.
David: He's got, you know those, th- the rappers who will, like, go to hotels and r- do, like, crazy hotel bills?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... I've seen, like, stat sheets of, like, how many hotel rooms has this rapper ruined?
Seth: Oh, my gosh. [laughs]
David: Like, how many millions of dollars have they spent on room service? It's like, this is his hotel bill.
Seth: Crazy.
David: This is his stat sheet. [laughs]
Seth: He has completed great works. He has multiple homes, multiple vineyards, gardens, parks, orchards, irrigations, servants to attend his every need, cattle and ranch land, silver, gold, the best singers and songwriters entertain him alone. He has political power, and he's seen as a sex god. Like, this is his-
David: He's the king of Vegas.
Seth: He's the king of Vegas.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, what's his name? Uh, Howard Hughes. Do you know who that is?
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So he, I mean, he broke the land speed record.
David: Yep.
Seth: Was a movie star, millions of dollars, had, like, a beautiful home in LA. He was Qohelet.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He was Solomon, the mo-
David: Uh, you know, like a quarter of him.
Seth: A quarter of him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He was, he was like-
David: He wishes. [laughs]
Seth: He was this epic figure-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the American imagination for a period of time, and what Qohelet says at the very end, "It's all vanity."
David: Yep.
Seth: And W- Howard Hughes was a big TV star, right, or movie star.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the last decade of his life, he became severely depressed, addicted to codeine, and he would just watch his old movies over and over and over again. All that wealth led him to just being comatose watching his old wealth-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and his old status.
David: Yep.
Seth: It was vanity.
David: Yep.
Seth: The real-life picture, I mean, we have a real-life picture here in Qohelet as well.
David: Yes, we do.
Seth: But, like, vanity.
David: Yep.He had the, he had the best food, the best house, the best sex, the best wine, uh, the most prestige. I mean, a lot of these things that are listed are things associated either with kings or gods in the ancient Near East.
Seth: Mm.
David: So, like vineyards, and statues, and temples, and palaces. Like, these are things that were built for gods. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these are things that would be commissioned for the gods.
Seth: And-
David: He lived as a, like a god on Earth
Seth: ... and think about Solomon's story in particular.
David: Yes.
Seth: His own house was more opulent than the temple.
David: Exactly right. He outshone Yahweh on Earth.
Seth: Gosh. [laughs]
David: Yeah. And it was vanity. And so, uh, he, he goes, the, uh, verse 11, "Then I considered all that my hands had done and all the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after the wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun."
Seth: He got it all.
David: He got it all and had nothing.
Seth: And had nothing.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It was like smoke. It was like trying to catch wind in a bottle.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, it was there, and it wasn't there. Unmet expectations.
David: What do you think it is about pleasure, wealth, status in particular that i- that, that, that makes it such a good liar? Because ev- everyone will hear these stories. These are not old stories. Movies are made about this, you know, where it's like, oh, a family man, and he has a, he has three kids, and his life's crazy, and it's a small house, and he wishes it was bigger, but he's got the kids. And then he, like, has a dream, and he's the CEO, and he's single and has all the women.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then all he wants to do is go back to his old life. Like, this is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like a normal story we're used to hearing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: We know, even Hollywood quote unquote knows-
Seth: Right
David: ... that wealth doesn't satisfy, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But why do we all think that we'll be the exception, one, or why do we then pursue it still? Why do I still wanna be famous even though I know fame won't satisfy me? Why do I still want more money even though I know I don't need it? Like, [laughs] it's-
Seth: Right.
David: It... Why is it such a good lie?
Seth: I mean, I think what Kohelet did by choice, we b- do by default. We only ever look below the sun.
David: Mm.
Seth: We only ever look down.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, it's like we, we have a s- looking up w- is painful. It's painful to look at the sun, and so we don't.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We look at the life on the ground and say, "This, there's gotta be something here. This is what I can see. I can touch it, I can feel it, I can see it."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It must be able to provide. And he, and what he's saying is, "What I did by choice, you do by nature, and haven't you noticed yet that it's not working out?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: Everything that's actually solid turns into smoke. And maybe the reason sex, money, and power are so power- like, are such, like, such great traps is because they're the most solid.
David: Oh, they're very solid.
Seth: It's like sex-
David: They're the least like smoke.
Seth: The least like smoke.
David: They're the best mirage.
Seth: They're the, uh, because, and really, they are the most pleasurable, the most exotic, the most rewarding.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And yet they're nothing.
David: Yep. Yeah.
Seth: Nothing.
David: I think maybe-
Seth: That's, that's helpful. Yeah.
David: So, where, did you have a different answer?
Seth: No, I don't have an answer. [laughs] I think, uh, I think what I'd wanna say here is just, like, isn't, like, I think it's funny. We, we kind of let Solomon come and rebuke David. We should let David come and rebuke Solomon with, like, Psalm, like, Psalm-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is it 16? Yeah, Psalm 16:11.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? "In Yahweh's presence is fullness of joy. At his right hand are pleasures forevermore."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, where, then if this won't satisfy me, what will? Looking not at, not at the face of the most beautiful woman or at the plate of the best steak or, you know, whatever.
David: Right, right, right, right.
Seth: It's looking at the face of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in Jesus Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: God's face has been shown to us in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 2, or 2 Corinthians 4 says.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's-
David: That's it
Seth: ... that's pleasure. Like, that's satisfaction. That's joy. And, like, I think we believe then, David, what are you asking me? You're saying that my sexual desires, my hunger, my desire to be seen, and respected, and loved, and honored, all of those I have to spiritualize and take some kind of Buddhist retreat and self-sacrifice and beat myself and-
David: No
Seth: ... get some lesser spiritual, mythical version of this? No.
David: No.
Seth: I'm saying you are now taking the fake, mythical, ethereal version of it. It's smoke.
David: Right.
Seth: What, what you think is-
David: The best thing
Seth: ... the best thing is the fake thing.
David: Is the fake thing.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And well, we, this is jumping ahead a little bit.
Seth: Yeah, it's so good though.
David: But, like, what he's, what he ends up saying, "So what do you want me to do? Not pursue these things? What, what am I supposed to do with all these desires?"
Seth: Right.
David: "What am I supposed to do with all this stuff?" He says, "Well, there's nothing," verse 24 of verse 2, "There's nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment in his work and his toil. This also I saw is from the hand of God, because apart from God, who can eat, or who can have enjoyment?" And so, what he says is, what, what, the tension we feel is, like, well, God's with- the, the pers- the, um, the thing we believe most readily is that God's holding out on us. There's a brass dome over the sky. Mm-hmm.
Seth: And all that there is is this, and if I don't grind to get everything I can out of this life, it won't matter.
David: Right.
Seth: And I have to suck it, suck the marrow dry-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order to gain anything.
David: I gotta carpe diem.
Seth: I gotta carpe diem, because otherwise I'm, my life is pointless.
David: Yep.
Seth: And what he's pointing out is, like, well, if you, the more you carpe the diem-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... the more your life will feel empty.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And actually, the only way to enjoy sex, money, and power is to remember that those things are gifts from God. And, uh, well, so, so that's part of it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's part of it, that if you actually wanna enjoy those things, you actually have to start, stop looking down and start looking up.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's more to the world than what's under the sun.
David: Right.
Seth: That's at least part of the answer.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's part of the answer.
David: Yeah. That's good. That's really good. I, and I think, uh, I mean, let's, let's, like, keep tracing pleasure, since we don't really come back to a lot of pleasure.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How does the gospel fulfill our desire for pleasure and break the lie of pleasure? Like, I mean, does Jesus really, as our husband, bring us more sexual fulfillment? [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that's an interesting question.
Seth: Well, it's, and it's kind of like, it feels like a profane or a-
David: It does feel like a profane question
Seth: ... crude question.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But there is a reason why David talks about, um, the law of the Lord tasting sweeter than honey.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The best, sweetest food that-
David: Yep
Seth: ... David asks-
David: And being better than purest gold
Seth: ... better than purest gold. Uh, that his house is the house he wants to live in forever.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That he wants to be in the Garden of Eden again. Everything that David was able to, or Solomon, or the, Kohelet was able to build for himself, we have a really clear picture in scripture where God is better.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, there are-
David: Psalm 119.
Seth: Psalm 119. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, or all the psalms that you, 104, where like, where Dav-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like, Solomon's rebuking him. Well, David was saying, "No, this is good things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from the Lord." It's not insignificant that Jesus is described as a husband, especially for people who are widowed-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or never married.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, [laughs] like, it's important that Jesus is described as a brother when some people in their quest for power might destroy their family members.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, there's actually-
David: Yeah, or a friend.
Seth: Or a friend.
David: When, when, when, when, when you've lost all friends. Yeah. Or, and then God is our Father. W- you know? [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, so then if the ta- like, there's a tangibleness, there's a realness, there's a solidity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... an assumed hevel-like solidity to pursuing pleasure.
David: Yes.
Seth: But, um, then in what way is Jesus better than that?
David: I think that-
Seth: Like, like that's, like, so if that's pleasure-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and that feels good, and, but it turns out to be smoke, how is Jesus fulfilling that? Does that make sense?
David: Oh, 100%.
Seth: I want like, an answer to that question.
David: Yeah. So I, I have two answers.
Seth: Okay.
David: So, uh, one, let me do, uh, I gotta figure, I guess the order doesn't matter.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, so one would be, um, and I, I wrote about this in Rewire Your Heart.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, and it is that we have been wired a certain way by God th- to have desires and affections that we long to be fulfilled, and those things are good. They were God-given. Like, the reason why Eve wanted to eat that fruit in the garden was because she was given hunger by God.
Seth: Mm.
David: The reason she knew it was beautiful, because she was gi- her eyes were given the ability to perceive aesthetics.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Those were given to her by God. That was before the fall.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So we have desires in our hearts that God gave us, and sin comes along, twists those desires, and offers us smoke, and says, "This will satisfy you." And we gulp it down, and it doesn't satisfy those innate desires.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What, what w- what I'm saying here is you have desires from God that can only be fulfilled by God.
Seth: Do you-
David: You have solid desires-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that can't go away, and they can only be fulfilled by a, the solid one who never goes away.
Seth: Our desire for wealth-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... isn't wrong in one sense. Our desire for sex isn't wrong in one sense. Our desire for power is not wrong in one sense. God has given us innate desi- our, our hunger is not wrong, or a desire to taste good food is not wrong-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in one sense, because God has designed us to want to be intimate. He's designed us to see beautiful things-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and see beautiful people. He designed our taste buds to experience beautiful food and listen to beautiful music. But those things are not found under the sun.
David: No, they all were made to be different receptors for us to be infinitely and multifacetedly pleased by God himself.
Seth: Hmm.
David: God gave us eyes that long to see beauty, and Kohelet says they're never full. He gave us eyes to see that because he wants to be the one to satisfy that sight.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He gave us a hunger that no matter the most expensive meal we could eat in the most exotic place, it never satisfies it, and it always comes back because he wants to satiate us. Like-
Seth: And what that, and that... Like, I've heard a phrase like the organ, so like the tongue is an organ.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, our bodies are organs that experience the hevel of the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The things that seem solid, our body's an organ that, that, like, senses them, experiences them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and they all turn out to be smoke. Um, on the earth, everything looks solid but turns out to be smoke-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when we use it with the organ of our body.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But those desires were meant to actually be exercised by, or like the organ of faith.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think it's fascinating that when Paul talks about fa- or author of Hebrews talks about-
David: Yes
Seth: ... faith, he says, "Faith is the substance."
David: Yes, faith is substance.
Seth: It's the-
David: You think faith is smoke.
Seth: You think faith is nothing.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's invisible and ma- it's like, it's just blind.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Nothing.
David: But it's substantive.
Seth: But it's substantive.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And it gains for you the most solid thing possible, eternal life in Christ.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A life that doesn't end, that where you eat good food and drink good wine and have perfect intimacy with each other and with the Lord. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when you have, you reign over angels. [laughs] Like, don't you know you'll rule over angels?
David: That's just desire for power that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is purely met in God's plan for us. So that's my first answer, is that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we have solid desires that are only able to be solidly met by God.
Seth: Okay.
David: My other answer is in the gospel.
Seth: Okay.
David: So Jesus enters into our cycle of entropy. He dies, right? And we think that's the terminal end. Everything he gained for himself in his righteous living only ended in death, so we thought.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But when he rose to life, he rose in a new glorified body in which he is still living and reigning perfectly and will forever, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He fi- he left his body of smoke to enter into a body of substance.
Seth: Mm.
David: Right?
Seth: Right.
David: He, we think that this physical world is the real one.
Seth: We think-
David: This is the smoke world.
Seth: Right.
David: We're living in the smoke world right now, and when Jesus comes and remakes everything, he will remake it into the substance of what he is now.
Seth: Mm.
David: What we, the, this world and these bodies, Paul in 1 Corinthians calls a seed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And when it's planted, it grows into something far bigger and different.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, that's the real substantive thing. And so-
Seth: I think about, uh, The Chronicles of Narnia.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: The, the last battle.
David: Okay.
Seth: When they enter through the door into Narnia's version of heaven.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the, it's this beautiful place that's bigger and brighter and more solid than anything they've experienced before, and they trust that, like, um, because they trust in Aslan.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And there's a certain group of people... Or is this in The Great Divorce? I can't remember.
David: Just keep, just keep going.
Seth: But there's this, this moment when these people that don't want, don't trust that Aslan's kingdom is the better kingdom experience it, and they step on the grass.
David: That's Great Divorce.
Seth: It's Great Divorce.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It hurts them.
David: Yes.
Seth: Because it's-
David: The gr- the grass is, like, sharp needles and shards of glass.
Seth: It's too solid.
David: It's too solid for their smoky bodies to handle.
Seth: They've so consumed smoke in their lifetime, that when they finally meet the real thing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it's painful to them.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so what faith does-
David: The, the, like, the, in that same world, like, it starts to rain, and it's like bullets shooting from the sky.
Seth: Whoa.
David: It's just too solid.
Seth: I forgot about that part.
David: And, like, the people who live in this world in The Great Divorce, the, the, like, the citizens of heaven, it's like a refreshing dew.
Seth: Mm.
David: But everyone else has to take shelter from a barrage of bullets [laughs] 'cause it's too substantive. It's too real. Which is why Paul says that we are preparing for ourselves an eternal weight of glory. What's coming is not some cloud in the sky. It is this heavy, real, final, substantive, im- i- immutable thing.
Seth: We live in a world of smoke.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God wants to bring us a, to a world of solidity.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the way that he does that is he sends into a world of smoke his incarnate, solid son-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in the world of smoke, he does something that seems smoke-like.
David: Mm.
Seth: He dies.
David: He dies.
Seth: Just like everybody else, but because death itself is smoke-
David: And he is substance
Seth: ... is solid. [laughs] He rises from the smoke.
David: He passes through it like smoke.
Seth: He passes through it.
David: Oh, it's so good.
Seth: Ascends to the heavens, and then promise all who have faith, all who have substance, who, all who trust the solidity-
David: In the substance of who he is past the smoke of the world
Seth: ... will experience that on the last day.
David: Yes. That is good. And so to circle back around, then the only way to enjoy the pleasures of this world is to know that they are not your ultimate satisfaction. Like, if you go-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to a meal being like, "Yeah, this is it. That's what's up. I'm gonna finally..." You know, like, no.
Seth: Right.
David: You're not gonna ever be able to enjoy it if, if that's what you think will bring you pleasure. If you think that the best sex of your life with the hottest woman, uh, you know, in the world, if you're a guy, you know, [laughs] like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, that will be what ultimately satisfies your libido, it won't.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But, like, if you can enter into those things knowing-
Seth: Or even the, the, the-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... the Christian version of it.
David: Okay.
Seth: If you can just get a, a wife-
David: Oh
Seth: ... or a husband-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and have just-
David: Yes
Seth: ... normal Bible sex-
David: Yes
Seth: ... then I'll be totally satisfied. You won't be.
David: You won't be, if that's where you think it ends, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if you know that you're a pilgrim and that this is temporary-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and that life is hevel and vapor-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right, the good news of Ecclesiastes is that you actually can circle back around with your eye to faith in the world of substance. You're able to come back into a world of smoke and enjoy it like no one else can.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.
David: Where you're able to create a tiny Garden of Eden-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and make good things happen in a world of smoke.
Seth: That's fascinating because, like, yeah, it's like everybody else is gonna taste the best steak in the world, and it's not gonna satisfy them.
David: Right.
Seth: But the fir- person who's placed their trust in Jesus can eat the best steak in the world, and it be the best steak in the world.
David: That's right.
Seth: It can be its own end.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It can be beautiful to taste, beautiful to enjoy, and you're never hungry for it again-
David: Right
Seth: ... because you're satisfied in something else. What is, uh, um, that C- Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis again. He, uh, talk, he's training this demon.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he says, "Never allow your patient"-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the person he's tormenting, "to enjoy something for the sake of itself."
David: Right. Always.
Seth: "Always make sure that it's for some other end."
David: That's right.
Seth: He can't read a book just to enjoy it.
David: Nope.
Seth: He must do it to appear smart.
David: Smarter. Mm-hmm.
Seth: He can't just eat something. It has to be to prove that he's a cultured type of man.
David: That's right.
Seth: And what the, Ecclesiastes is promising is a, a gift that God will give people who acknowledge the solidity above the sun, is that that thing itself will be finally enjoyable.
David: That's right.
Seth: You don't have to strive after the wind anymore.
David: That's good news.
Seth: It's great news. How far... We are a ways into this podcast. [laughs]
David: We are a ways into this podcast. We're gonna have to wrap it up here, I think.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that's, but that's good. We're at the very end of chapter two.
Seth: Yep. We didn't-
David: And we'll start with-
Seth: ... really talk about toil, work, but everything we said applies to-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the workaholic just as much-
David: Oh, definitely
Seth: ... as it does to the pleasure seeker.
David: Yeah, well, how come as much as I work it doesn't satisfy?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, same kind of stuff.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep. Um, yeah, absolutely right. And so, um, yeah, we'll end here, and we'll jump back in with chapter three next time-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and talk about our broken relationship with time-
Seth: That's always fun
David: ... which is gonna be good. So guys, thank you so much for listening and, uh, w- you know, live with your eyes to the world of substance. [laughs]
Seth: And leave us a really solid-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... digital review, uh, on iTunes-
David: My favorite podcast app
Seth: ... or your favorite podcast app.
David: Oh, my goodness.
Seth: That would be excellent.
David: That's vanity, Seth.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Hevel Heveline.
Seth: Hevel Heveline of all the Hevelines.
David: Oh, my gosh. All right. Bye, guys. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a non-profit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
