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Ecclesiastes 9:11-12: Qohelet's Last Words

About This Episode

The final portion of Ecclesiastes is a collection of miscellaneous proverbs and Qohelet's conculsion. Seth and David work through some of their favorites and finish up their study in the book of Ecclesiastes.

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Qohelet's Last Words: How Ecclesiastes Points Us to Jesus

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart wrap up their series on Ecclesiastes in this final episode, covering chapters 9:11 through the end of the book. Before diving into the text, they reflect on the various ways they've learned to read Ecclesiastes over the course of the series — and then walk through some of the most striking proverbs and passages in these closing chapters, showing how each one finds its surprising fulfillment in Jesus.

Learning to Read Ecclesiastes

One of the most valuable takeaways from studying Ecclesiastes is that it resists simple formulas. The book can be read thematically, tracing threads like hevel (smoke or vapor), the unknowability of the future, and the need to look "above the sun" for a foundation for life. It can also be read as fatherly wisdom passed down to a son, or as kingly counsel offered from a ruler to his people. Another lens sees it as Messianic wisdom — guidance for living faithfully in a world still under the curse, where our best efforts often produce the opposite of what we expect. And perhaps most profoundly, it can be approached as Jewish meditation literature, meant to be read slowly, circled back to, and allowed to reshape your thinking over time.

This last approach proved especially fruitful throughout the series. The more the hosts sat with a single phrase or image — like "one handful of rest and one handful of toil" — the more meaning it yielded. Passages they discussed early on took on new significance in light of later chapters, illustrating what scholars call the hermeneutical spiral: allowing what you've read before to inform what you read next, and vice versa. The encouragement here is not to rush through Ecclesiastes. It rewards patience and reflection in ways that a quick read simply cannot.

The Poor Wise Man and the Wisdom of the Cross

Ecclesiastes 9:11–12 sets the stage for the final stretch of the book with a bracing observation: the race does not always go to the swift, the battle does not always go to the strong, and bread does not always go to the wise. Time and chance overtake everyone. People are caught in evil times the way fish are caught in a net — suddenly and without warning (Ecclesiastes 9:11–12).

But then Qohelet tells a small parable that he finds deeply compelling: a little city with few people in it is besieged by a great king. A poor, wise man is found in the city, and by his wisdom he delivers it. Yet afterward, no one remembers his name (Ecclesiastes 9:13–16). The parable is chastened — wisdom saves the city, but it is quickly forgotten. One sinner, Qohelet adds, can destroy much good (Ecclesiastes 9:18). A dead fly ruins a perfumer's ointment (Ecclesiastes 10:1). Wisdom is powerful, but it is also fragile in a world where folly spreads so easily.

The connections to Jesus are striking. Israel was always one of the smallest people groups on earth, and faithful Israel was smaller still — a tiny city constantly besieged by Babylon, Assyria, and Rome. Into that tiny, besieged city, God sent a poor, wise man. Jesus did not deliver the city by military force or by summoning legions of angels. He delivered it by dying — by what Paul calls "the wisdom of the cross" (1 Corinthians 1:18–25). His wisdom was greater than any weapon of war. And the fact that the race does not go to the swift or the battle to the strong turns out to be good news, because it means God can subvert the powerful through what the world considers weak and foolish. At the same time, the parable's warning — that one sinner destroys much good — highlights why no ordinary wise person could ultimately save us. A little sin spoils the whole batch. We needed someone perfect to embody this wisdom on our behalf, someone whose work would not be undone by the leaven of human folly.

Princes in the Place of Slaves

Ecclesiastes 10:5–7 identifies a particular evil under the sun: people placed in positions they are unsuited for, where fools occupy high places and the competent are overlooked. It is a reality everyone has encountered — leaders who lack the skill or character their role demands, and capable people languishing without influence.

The Gospel turns this observation inside out. Jesus held the highest position of all — King of kings, Prince of Peace — and yet He willingly took the position of a slave and servant (Philippians 2:5–8). What Qohelet would call a great evil, Jesus performed voluntarily in order to reverse our situation. He left His place of authority to enter a place of servitude, and in doing so, He took slaves to sin and made them co-heirs and co-rulers with Him (Romans 8:17). The exchange sounds scandalous — and it is. The idea that an innocent person can bear the penalty for the guilty strikes many as unjust. But the God against whom all sin is ultimately committed is the same God who chose not to press charges and instead bore the cost of forgiveness Himself. The cross is where justice and mercy meet: God acts as both the offended party and the one who absorbs the offense. And the categories for understanding this come not from a Western courtroom but from Leviticus — the sacrificial system God designed precisely to make atonement intelligible.

Jesus also echoes this theme directly in His teaching. He tells the Pharisees that when you come to a feast, take the lowest seat so that the host of the party can invite you higher (Luke 14:7–11). The wisdom is the same: do not presume upon your position. Let the one with authority place you where you belong. In Jesus, the one with ultimate authority has placed those who trust Him at His own table.

The Irony of Work and the One Who Broke It

Ecclesiastes 10:8–11 describes the strange irony embedded in all labor under the curse. The pit digger falls into his own pit. The wall breaker gets bitten by a snake hiding inside. The stone quarrier is injured by falling stones. Work, under the curse of Genesis 3, has a way of turning back on the worker — the very thing you labor with becomes the thing that harms you. Thorns and thistles spring up from the ground you are trying to cultivate.

But then Qohelet offers a practical piece of wisdom: if the ax is dull, sharpen it. A little wisdom can reduce the curse's bite, at least partially (Ecclesiastes 10:10). You can work smarter, not just harder, and undo a small portion of the frustration that plagues human effort.

Jesus, however, works with full wisdom. He does not merely soften the curse — He cuts it off at the root. And He does so through the very irony Qohelet describes. Jesus went to the cross, and death did its work on Him. But in trying to consume the Author of life, death destroyed itself. Satan, the accuser, brought his accusations against the only person who had no sin to accuse — and all the rocks fell back on the accuser. The irony of the curse was broken from the inside out. The whole book of Ecclesiastes, in fact, is structured around irony: you work expecting one result and get its opposite. Jesus is the one who finally breaks that cycle. He builds a life, goes to death, and comes out the other side alive. He does not simply point out the irony or laugh at it — He shatters it. And because He does, our work can now have a solid foundation. We can build things with permanence, sending the fruits of our labor ahead into eternity, because we are joined to someone whose work does not collapse back in on itself.

Money, Bread on the Waters, and the Rhythm of Work and Rest

Ecclesiastes 10:19 offers a blunt proverb: "A feast is made for laughter, wine makes life merry, and money is the answer for everything." The statement is jarring after chapters of warnings about the emptiness of wealth. But Ecclesiastes 7:12 provides a helpful parallel: wisdom and money both serve as a kind of buffer against life's hardships. Money does not buy happiness, but it does make difficulties less difficult. That is simply an honest observation about life under the sun.

The advice that follows in chapter 11 reinforces the point. "Cast your bread on the waters" is not mystical language — it means send your goods out to trade across the sea, because after many days your investment will return (Ecclesiastes 11:1). Diversify your efforts. Do not plant only in the morning; plant in the evening too, because you do not know which venture will succeed (Ecclesiastes 11:6). This is not the greedy grasping with both hands that Qohelet warned against earlier. It is the wise use of one hand on work — laboring diligently and strategically — while keeping the other hand on rest and trust in God. The difference between grabbing toil with one hand and grabbing it with two is a heart condition. One hand on work means diligence. The second hand on work means placing all your hope and identity there. The wise person works hard but rests in the confidence that God approves of their labor and will judge every work in its proper time.

This rhythm mirrors the pattern God established from the very beginning. For six days God worked with extraordinary precision and wisdom, and on the seventh He rested. The Sabbath was never meant to suggest that work is bad, but to remind us that work is not the ultimate thing. Jesus deepened this further. He pointed out that the priests work on the Sabbath and that God Himself is always working (John 5:17). In the new covenant, every day becomes both work and rest simultaneously — Edenic activity, where labor is restful and rest is productive. The Hebrew verbs used to describe Adam's work in Eden are the same ones used for the priests' service in the tabernacle. To work on the Sabbath in the tabernacle was to work as if you were back in the Garden. Jesus restores that possibility. In Him, we can work every day with the peace of mind that our effort is not smoke — it has a future in His Kingdom.

Remember Your Creator and the End of the Matter

The final movement of Ecclesiastes begins with an urgent word to the young: "You who are young, be happy while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth" (Ecclesiastes 11:9). The word translated "vanity" here may simply mean "brief" — youth and the dawn of life pass quickly, like a breath. And so the command is not a graduation speech about traveling the world before you get old. It is something far more serious: "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth" (Ecclesiastes 12:1).

What follows is a haunting, almost disorienting poem about old age. The imagery shifts rapidly — a storm destroying a city, grinders falling silent, a bird's song waking a light sleeper, a golden bowl being shattered, a bucket breaking at the bottom of a well (Ecclesiastes 12:2–6). One commentator noted that the metaphors are deliberately inconsistent, jumping from one image to the next without a single line of thought being maintained, mirroring the way the aging mind itself struggles to hold ideas together. The text becomes an image of the very thing it describes.

The urgency behind all of this is pastoral. Qohelet is not simply saying that old age is unpleasant. He is warning that the longer you wait, the harder it becomes to turn your heart toward God. A lifetime of disappointment, cynicism, and hardness can make repentance feel impossible. And what gives this warning its weight is the person delivering it. This is not a youth pastor who has barely lived. This is a man who tried everything — pleasure, wealth, wisdom, accomplishment — and concluded that all of it is smoke apart from God. If someone with that resume says the one thing on your bucket list should be remembering your Creator, it is worth taking seriously.

The book's conclusion comes not from Qohelet himself but from the editor who gathered his words and passed them on. He affirms that Qohelet chose his words carefully — what he wrote was upright and true (Ecclesiastes 12:9–10). The words of the wise, he says, are like goads and firmly fixed nails given by one Shepherd (Ecclesiastes 12:11). The identity of this Shepherd echoes throughout Scripture: God is the Shepherd of Israel, and Jesus takes that title upon Himself (John 10:11). Ecclesiastes and Proverbs, though they seem to pull in opposite directions, function like goads on either side of the path, keeping the reader from veering too far in any direction. They share one divine Author, and they point toward the same narrow way.

The final verdict is direct: "Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13–14). After eleven chapters of wrestling with injustice, unmet expectations, and the apparent meaninglessness of life under the sun, the answer is breathtakingly simple. And the reason it works is that God's judgment is perfect. In a world of hevel, justice never quite arrives — evil people prosper and good people suffer. But God promises to judge every deed rightly. In the cross, evil was punished and sin was defeated. Through the death of Jesus, those who trust Him escape the judgment they deserve. And the good works done in His name are not lost to the smoke — they will be rewarded. That is the good news of Ecclesiastes: in a world where everything seems to collapse back into nothing, there is a way to build something that lasts, and it is found in the one Shepherd who speaks through every page of this strange and beautiful book.

Transcript

Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.

David: [upbeat music] All right, well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is, uh, our last episode on Ecclesiastes, and-

Seth: Our last episode remotely.

David: Yes, I was about to say, this is, this is our last episode for Seth and I to do over the internet-

Seth: The internet

David: ... because he is moving from Kansas City to Oklahoma City to join us full-time at Spoken Gospel.

Seth: It's such an exciting, exciting month.

David: It's very exciting, very stressful.

Seth: Not without first going to Florida, though. [laughs]

David: Yeah. Yep, he's gonna, he's gonna go on a little vacay. Um, and, uh, so yeah, this is, this is the la-

Seth: Although Florida is, like, now a hotspot for COVID.

David: Yeah, good luck with that.

Seth: And I feel, I feel very s- I feel legitimately a little, a little worried for myself-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and my, like, sense of being a good citizen. [laughs]

David: Are you, are you driving?

Seth: We're flying. [laughs]

David: Oh, goodness.

Seth: So it's like everything, I'm like, "I don't know if this is..." This is not safe.

David: Yeah, we-

Seth: This is not the safest thing I could do.

David: We were supposed to go to Florida I- at the beginning of August.

Seth: To Disney?

David: Here, here in two weeks. Yeah, to Disney. Here, or here in, like, a month, I guess. Yeah, to Disney. And, uh, yeah, no, we canceled it.

Seth: Disney, is Disney closed?

David: No, they're, they're, they're open, and they're doing, like, a lot of good things about, like, you know, keeping things clean, but it's just too risky.

Seth: It's risky.

David: So we just, we just canceled. So anyway.

Seth: Well.

David: Um-

Seth: Just thrill-seeking Seth, just going on COVID planes.

David: It's true. You know-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... speaking of, speaking of the decisions that you're, you're making-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... versus decisions I'm making, let's talk about the fool and the wise one here.

Seth: Ah, yes.

David: We always-

Seth: Perfect

David: ... we always find a segue. [laughs]

Seth: Perfect segue. Um, uh-

David: No, so, uh, so let me, let me, let me tee up real quick. So we are, uh, wrapping up chapter nine, um, of Ecclesiastes and going through the end of the book to, through chapter 12, and, um, I think we teed this up a little bit last week, but basically, uh, there aren't a lot of strong connective tissues between, um, the different-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... sections in this, uh, these, these chapters. Um, and so it's really hard to build a narrative out of-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... these kind of disconnected, uh, sections. So we are going to make some observations about, um, different sections. Uh, a lot of these are proverbs here at the end, uh, but before we did that, we thought it would be helpful to walk through kind of different ways over these last several episodes that we've learned to digest Ecclesiastes. Um, I think for me, uh, I, I've just, I've learned a lot about how to read Ecclesiastes as we've read Ecclesiastes together.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so it's, it's interesting.

Seth: Most certainly.

David: I'm, I think, like, I think present-day David would go back and rebuke past David-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... on his interpretations, um, or points.

Seth: It's-

David: But not, I mean, but then again, not really, and I think that's the point of Ecclesiastes.

Seth: I, I-

David: It's just, it's so funny

Seth: ... think you, I think I agree with you. I, it's funny, I've l- been listening back to the podcast, and I've found us, like, contradicting, not each other, but, like, our past selves a couple different [laughs] times-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, throughout the, throughout the thing. But I think, also think you're right. It, the Book of Ecclesiastes invites us to interrogate both sides of the wisdom equation. Like, if I put in output X, will I get output Y? But when I don't get output Y, will I get output X?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then it, that doesn't just apply to random proverbs like, "The Lord will make his path straight if he is wise."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It also applies to the method by which we're trying to ascertain wisdom and gain wisdom-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... because wisdom itself doesn't function according to formulas.

David: Right.

Seth: [laughs] Like, anyway. So the question is, how should we be reading... How have we read the Book of Ecclesiastes?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So we've read it a couple different ways. One, we've w- read it thematically, so we've tried to pull themes that are frequent in, throughout. So, like, the idea of a, um, an experiment-

David: Yes

Seth: ... or experimenter trying to show us that life is hevel, and our, the baseline for our life must come from above the sun.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We've, uh, even in this section, there's a really strong theme of, like, not knowing what's gonna happen in the future.

David: Yes, big theme.

Seth: So over and over and over again, like, we don't know what's gonna happen in the future, we don't know what's gonna happen in the future, so act wisely as if you don't know what's gonna happen in the future.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Uh, so you can read it thematically, which I think is helpful.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um, and that's w- the way I've written the d- devotionals, the, the YouTube devotionals for-

David: Mm

Seth: ... um, Ecclesiastes thematically. You could also read it as fatherly wisdom to a son. So we have references to, that see, like, directive statements like, "You should do this, you should do this, you should do this," and at the very end, we have a father speaking to a son or calling-

David: Mm

Seth: ... his audience a son. So you can think about it that way, as fatherly wisdom to a son. You could think about the collected proverbs as, um, kingly wisdom, uh, either from a king, from a king to a prince, um, which is really helpful 'cause there's a lot of psalms about, a lot of proverbs about kingship.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Or you could think about it as a king to his citizens in a proper way to live it.

David: Oh, right. Yeah.

Seth: Proper way to live. And, and, like, that makes sense because Jesus, Paul, um, Prover- uh, uh, David, and S- Saul- Solomon in the Book of Proverbs will refer to Israel as sons-

David: Right

Seth: ... or, like, as, like, brothers or sisters. Like, familial language is also a way to, like, refer to everybody.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh-

David: Israel is o- often called the, like, the son of God.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's exactly right. You could also read it as, like, Messianic wisdom in a fallen world. If, like, one of the ways that Ecclesiastes functions differently than the Book of Proverbs is that it's kinda giving full flower to life under the curse. It's like full flowered all of our on me- met expectations, full ex- descriptions of-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the way that the crooked lines that we try to draw the world with, but we hold on to, like frustratingly. And it's Messianic wisdom on how to draw a straight line with a crooked stick.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Or how to make your crooked stick straight again so that you can live in harmony with the will of God and His judgments.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You could also read it as like we- world-weary concessions in a cursed world.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's like this is the best we can do. Um, and then this one, uh, David and I both admit, this is not something that we're s- experts in, but have been really benefited by, is The Bible Project's, um, couple videos and podcasts about the Bible as Jewish meditation literature.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So I'm just gonna encourage you, just go and listen to some of their content on that.

David: Yep.

Seth: Because it's been really profound. They, they said like the Bible is often meant for you to read more than once.

David: Yes.

Seth: And to think about a phrase, and just keep thinking about it.

David: Yep.

Seth: And to run through-

David: And then as you read... Yeah, and as you read through it, to then go back and allow what you've read to inform what you read again, which is, is just a Biblical interpretation practice called har- a hermeneutical cycle.

Seth: Yes.

David: Or the her- hermeneutical spiral is what that's called.

Seth: Yeah, like allow-

David: Where you're allowing... Yeah, allow what you read in the future to go, or, uh, you know, what you've read in the past to inform what you read in the future.

Seth: Yes.

David: Or, yeah, so.

Seth: And it's the... I mean, they're brilliant at it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think we've like, we even me- mentioned it here, like the more we read of Ecclesiastes, the more it chastens our previous versions of ourselves.

David: Yes. [laughs]

Seth: And the more we just think about the, the wise and poor man, the more it means to us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, like one, another way to just... I, we would encourage you to read it is listen to their li- their videos, and then just spend time in one passage, and then read the next three passages, and then read that one again, and then read the next two chapters-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and read that one again. It's like-

David: Well, it's like, just thinking about, um, uh, the, the crooked and straight path that we spent a lot of time talking about, um, last week, on last week's episode, I was like, "How did we not talk about Proverbs 3, like, 'Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Uh, in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight'"?

Seth: [laughs]

David: How did we not talk, how did we not talk about the broad way versus the narrow way? Like, how did... And it's just like-

Seth: But-

David: ... oh, man.

Seth: Meditative literature.

David: It's meditative literature.

Seth: So, as you go through-

David: The more I meditated on it... [laughs]

Seth: As you go through this last section of seemingly disconnected proverbs, um, and probably intentionally disconnected proverbs-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... I think most certainly disconnected proverbs-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... uh, intentionally disconnected proverbs-

David: Yes

Seth: ... treat it in all those different ways, and you should get a lot of benefit from it.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, take it slowly, meditate on it, consider all the different perspectives, and see Jesus-

David: There you go

Seth: ... which is what we're gonna try to do.

David: We're gonna try to do that too. Okay. So I'll, I'll, I just, I'll throw one out right at, right off the bat.

Seth: Do it.

David: You, you ready for this?

Seth: I'm ready for it.

David: Okay. So, um, let's see. Uh, wait, where is it? I should've written a verse reference. [laughs]

Seth: You're-

David: Let's see

Seth: ... you're failing us.

David: I'm not failing. Don't-

Seth: I can st- I can start us, if that makes-

David: But, but, but-

Seth: ... better sense.

David: Okay, go ahead.

Seth: Okay. So it's actually the very first little thing. So the very first verse in 9:11, it says, "Under the sun, the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge. But time and chance happen to them all."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "Like fish that are taken in an evil net and like birds caught in a snare, so the children of man are snared in an evil time, and it suddenly falls upon them."

David: Mm.

Seth: So I read that, and it's another example of how hevel works. There's no formula f- for life. The people that shouldn't get ahead, get ahead, and the people that should get ahead, don't.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And that's fine, but what w- but that's the context for, like, the opposite, and I love this little par- proverb. "I have also seen this example of wisdom under the sun, and it seemed great to me." So this is the one Solomon loves too, uh, or the Kohelet loves. "There was a little city with a few men in it, and a great king came against it and besieged it, building great siegeworks against it. But there was found in it a poor wise man, and he, by wisdom, delivered the city, yet no one remembered his name."

David: Mm.

Seth: "But I say that wisdom is better than might, though the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard. The wi- words the wise he-" [laughs] "The words of the wise heard in quiet are bedding, better than the shouting of rulers among fools. Wisdom is better than weapons of war."

David: Yeah.

Seth: I love, I love-

David: I love that too

Seth: ... I love-

David: I also love that we got a little parable.

Seth: I do. I loved it too. And I couldn't help but think about Jesus-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the entire time I was reading it.

David: Right.

Seth: You have faithful Israel, who's always described as one of the smallest people groups ever, and even within Israel, faithful Israel is an even smaller, tiny city within that.

David: Mm.

Seth: But in, and into this tiny city that's constantly being besieged by Babylon-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... Assyria, the kings of the north, the kings of the south, Rome-

David: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm

Seth: ... God sends into tiny Israel a poor, wise man.

David: Yes.

Seth: Jesus.

David: Yes.

Seth: Who, not by armies, and he says, "If my... If, if I w- ha- ruled a kingdom," Pilate-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... "I would, my soldiers would be out there fighting," but they're not. Not by sending 10,000 legions of angels, like he told us he could, but by death saves the city of Israel. Save-

David: By the wis- by the wisdom of the cross, 1 Corinthians says

Seth: ... by the wisdom of the cross.

David: By wisdom.

Seth: How... Uh, by wisdom.

David: He-

Seth: It's so good

David: ... his, his wisdom is greater than a weapon of war. The cross was a weapon of war, right?

Seth: And th- that's exactly right. The cross was a weapon, was better than a weapon of war, and then it goes back and makes me think, oh, wow, praise the Lord that the race is not to the swift. Praise the Lord the battle doesn't belong to the strong. I don't... [laughs] Like, I-

David: Oh, yeah, I see what you're saying

Seth: ... because, [laughs] because-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... I'm normally not the fastest.

David: Right. The, the, the race-

Seth: And I'm normally not the strongest. [laughs]

David: The race should have gone- To Caesar and Herod-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and Pilate. They were the swiftest-

Seth: And Pharaoh

David: ... and strongest. Yeah, and Pharaoh. Like, the race should go to them, but it doesn't always, and that's because into... God can work inside the hevel of life in order to subvert the strong with wisdom, and He can do that by being poor and going to death, and the world thinks that's folly, but it's his greatest wisdom. And-

Seth: And it's our greatest hope-

David: Ah, so cool

Seth: ... because we are poor and not the wisest-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and not the strongest. But if we trust in the Wise One, we become wiser than great armies.

David: Yes.

Seth: And we overpo- like, we overpower them by the wisdom of the cross, and we're saved.

David: Yeah. That's cool. I, yeah, I was excited about that, too, about that connection. I was really impressed by that story, though, um, like, in its context here with just, like, wi- like, uh, 'cause it's, it's chastened a little bit. It's not a, it's not an all-out wisdom is the number one best thing-

Seth: Right

David: ... parable, right? It's chastened. So it's like, you, you know, this, this big king comes and is gonna take over the city with all these great siege works. There's one poor man in the city, and he, you know, beats the king with his wisdom.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so it's like wisdom is better than strength, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I thought of, like, rock, paper, scissors, and I was like, wisdom beats strength like rock beats-

Seth: [laughs] Yeah, yeah

David: ... scissors.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: You know? Like, it's better. But then-

Seth: One sinner

David: ... like, later on, his wisdom is, his wisdom is forgotten, and no one heeds his warnings.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So whatever he did and instructed the people to do to save the city, people stopped following it after he was gone.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's like wisdom faded away and, you know. And so it's just interesting. It's like-

Seth: Well, and even at the end, like, but one sinner destroys much good.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, wisdom is better than weapons of war, but a little, a little leaven-

David: Yep

Seth: ... raises the whole lump.

David: Right.

Seth: One bad apple spoils the whole barrel.

David: Right.

Seth: And, like, what does Jesus t- say about the Pharisees? The Pharisees sp- spread rumors, and he says, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."

David: Yeah, that's right.

Seth: He's using, uh, and he says the same thing in the next one, "Dead flies make the perfumes for perfumers' ointment give off a stench."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "So a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor."

David: Right.

Seth: He, like, Jesus pu- I'm, I don't know. He's not quoting this exactly.

David: He's pulling on wisdom.

Seth: But he's using-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... wisdom to say, "My wisdom will overtake the Roman Empire."

David: Yeah.

Seth: But there's a leaven. There's a rotten apple. There's a fly in the ointment-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that's called the Pharisees-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and they are going to r- subvert it-

David: Right

Seth: ... if you listen to it.

David: Which is just interesting to think about, like, even in this great parable of the strength of a one wise man, we realize that no one on Earth is wise enough to ultimately provide the salvation and hope from the onsetting siege of sin and death that we needed.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David: Like, because we have a little bit of sin in us, and so it spoils the whole batch.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we needed someone who was perfect to do this wisdom, um, and to be this poor person for us. Anyway, I just thought that was interesting how-

Seth: It is, like, in the same way that one f-

David: Even, yeah

Seth: ... one, the same way that one fool can overturn a wise man, a little bit of sin overturns the wi- like, our salvation. Like, it's like, there's, like, this... Yeah. I don't know. Um-

David: Oh, I see what you're saying

Seth: ... right

David: ... kinda like what Paul, what Paul said, where it's like, you know, if you break one part of the law, you're guilty of all of it.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: A little bit of sin, you know, just completely ruins-

Seth: Right

David: ... everything. But-

Seth: It's like that-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... classic youth pastor. It's like, "If you put a little bit of poop in the cake-"

David: Oh, yeah. Well, you, you did it?

Seth: "... would you still want the cake?" [laughs]

David: [laughs] No. No, I would not.

Seth: That's the way God views your sin, man.

David: Oh.

Seth: The-

David: Dang it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Youth pastor, you got me again.

Seth: You got me again. [laughs] Classic youth pastor.

David: Just don't pass that rose around.

Seth: Oh, gosh.

David: That's the worst.

Seth: We've, have we ever talked about that on the podcast, the rose?

David: I think we have, actually.

Seth: Wow.

David: But anyway, let's, let's-

Seth: Let's not. We need to do it again.

David: Not right now. [laughs]

Seth: Not right now. [laughs]

David: Okay. Next, uh, oh, no, I remember the one I was gonna start with.

Seth: Okay.

David: It was that, um, uh, verse 12 in chapter 9, "A fish, uh, is caught in a cruel net, and birds are taken by a snare, so people are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly on them." Um, uh, that, I mean, that's Jesus. Like, except He-

Seth: Oh

David: ... He knew that His hour was coming. These evil times fell upon Him, but He was like, "My, it's not yet. I know when it is. The, my hour's not yet come. My hour's not yet come. The time is not yet." But then He said, "Behold, my hour has come," and He walks out to meet the evil that was going to befall Him in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, it's just interesting that, like, it's just once again showing that Jesus knows the times, and Jesus did not-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... fall into a trap at Gethsemane like a fish or a bird.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He set it up himself and, like, create, in w- in his wisdom, created a trap for sin and death. I just thought that was interesting.

Seth: It is interesting. And, like, another way to read this passage is, like, so Jesus was the swift one who did not run the race, win the race.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: He was the strong one who did not win the battle. He was the wise one who was not given bread. He was the intelligent one who was not rewarded with riches.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He was trapped by, even though he was God, he was trapped by Roman guards. Like-

David: Yeah, and the-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and the, and in the cruel net of death.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. Crazy.

Seth: But in the cruel net of death, there was wisdom, and-

David: There was

Seth: ... the poor man takes over the city. Oh, my gosh.

David: [laughs]

Seth: It's so good. [laughs]

David: All right. Let's take a break, and we'll hop back in with more little observations. [laughs] [gentle music]

Seth: Okay, David. Give us more-

David: Okay, Seth

Seth: ... bits of your meditation on the random bits of Proverbs that we get throughout-

David: Okay

Seth: ... and Ecclesiastes.

David: Well, thanks for that setup there, Seth.

Seth: You're welcome. [laughs] Go, David.

David: Uh, 10:7, or 10:5 to 7 I really like. "There is an evil I have seen under the sun, the sort of error that arises from a ruler. Fools are put in many high positions while the rich occupy the low ones. I have seen slaves on horseback while princes go on foot like slaves." Um, this is just talking about

Seth: Uh, there, there's a great evil, and it's when people are put in the wrong positions for them, that you have, um, inept leaders or unskilled bosses or ill-informed preachers. You know, like, like you have people who shouldn't be in high positions in high positions, and you have people who are very well qualified for high positions in low, low, low positions.

David: Mm.

Seth: And it's just like people are unsuited for the place that they, in, for their place in the world, and that's-

David: Mm

Seth: ... a great evil. And it's like I think everyone has that experience where they're like, "God-"

David: Right

Seth: ... "my boss is so stupid." And-

David: Right. [laughs] Yeah, yeah

Seth: ... it's like, I don't know, Ecclesiastes might agree with you. Maybe-

David: Yeah [laughs]

Seth: ... maybe he is. Uh-

David: You know, or it's like if you're frustrated with your, you know, political leaders, it's like, yeah, I mean, you know, we, it's a great evil that you-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... have someone who has the, um, the-

Seth: It's un-

David: ... bearing of a slave in the-

Seth: Mm

David: ... place of a prince. And-

Seth: I always got tripped up by just the slave language. I was like, is, is he saying it's wrong for a slave to have a little bit of power? Like, what's it [laughs] like, uh, yeah.

David: Oh, no, he's just using extremes, uh, you know, in order to talk about an, a, a, a people-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in wrong positions. And I just think it's amazing that that Jesus being in the highest position of all, the Prince of Peace, the King of Kings, a mighty God, that He became a slave and a servant to us.

Seth: Mm.

David: And like-

Seth: That He enters into the foolishness.

David: That's right. And He, yeah, He was put into the wrong position, uh, but He did so willfully, um, in order then to do what sounds like to Qohelet is a great evil, in order to take a slave and put us in the place of a prince.

Seth: Mm.

David: That w- that not only did Jesus leave his place of power to come into a place of slavery, He came and bought slaves, like us-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... us slaves to sin, and made us, uh, like inheritors with Him, like co-rulers.

Seth: That is interesting.

David: And so it's like, it sounds like almost like if, if you told Qohelet the Gospel, he'd be like, "That sounds evil." [laughs]

Seth: That sounds evil. Well, I mean, I've heard, uh, secular people make that same statement about Christianity.

David: Mm.

Seth: The idea that somebody else can pay for my sins-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... vicarious atonement, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... it's, that's an injustice. If just anybody can pay for somebody else's murder, rape-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... genocide, that's not true justice. If that, if s- one of the leaders of the Rwandan genocide doesn't die for his crimes, but-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... I can instead, that's a great injustice because-

David: Right

Seth: ... a murderer walks free while an innocent man dies. How is that justice?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Um.

David: Yes.

Seth: And I've, I've now-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... just lost myself in the bevel of that. [laughs]

David: Oh. [laughs] That's amazing.

Seth: I was just, I was like, uh, I don't, I don't know. I was just... I'm, I'm just meditating with you-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... [laughs] on this.

David: Yeah. Well, I mean-

Seth: Why is it, though, that, like, that t- that becomes good news?

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: And why is it that that foolishness also becomes wisdom-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... when Qohelet seems to cl- clearly lay out, like, that's folly.

David: Yeah. Well, I mean, a couple of things. So one, especially when it comes to vicarious atonement, um, you, we have to remember that, uh, there is the, there's the legal right of the offended party to press charges or not, right?

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Like, um, you know, and you have these beautiful stories of, um, you know, m- m- murder victims and th- their, and their families coming into the courtroom to, uh, face their husband's murderer, and you have these, you have, like, the wife coming in and forgiving that person.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, and being like, "Hey, I forgive you." Or like, you know, whenever you had, like, these church shootings, you'd have the congregation show up and start ministering to the shooter. Like-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and it's like the offended party is the one who has the right to absolve.

Seth: Right. Right, right, right, right, right.

David: Right? And to forgive. Um, but there's still justice left undone, right? Forgiveness doesn't make things better, right? It doesn't, like-

Seth: It doesn't

David: ... bring people back.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it doesn't, and it doesn't ex- it doesn't, it doesn't, like, right the scales either. And so in the cross, what we see is we see Jesus, um, you know, the, who is the offended party p- uh, you know, the Psalms say, "Against you and you alone have I sinned."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so we've sinned against God alone, and so He comes to us as the offended party and says, "I'm not pressing charges."

Seth: Mm.

David: But then His own character demands justice. And so-

Seth: And so He comes Himself

David: ... He comes Himself as the offended party to bear the justice. I think it's Tim Keller who talks about how, uh, forgiveness always costs something, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it, you know, you have to, "Okay, I guess I'll just swallow that and bear it myself-"

Seth: Yeah

David: "... 'cause I'm just gonna let them go." And, but, you know, the, the cost of, of, um, of our, of our forgiveness was death-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, for, for Jesus on Himself. Um, and so anyway, uh, I think, you know, you get that, you get that, the g- I, I guess it's a theological question that comes up when you ask how-

Seth: Right

David: ... the king could become a slave and a slave could become a king. It's-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... vicarious atonement in a sense.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, and it does sound like hebbel to the world. Um, and, uh, I think we also have to remember that, like, while, um, occasionally atonement is talked about in terms of a court case or our justice is, uh, or God's justice is talked about in terms of a court case throughout the Bible, um, you know, we don't have a perfect one-for-one for this, you know? Like, I think we-

Seth: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... we try to, we try to figure out, like, well, this just doesn't make sense in court.

Seth: Right.

David: And I'm like, it's not a court that is in the Old Testament that was meant to set up these categories. It was-

Seth: Mm

David: ... Leviticus. Like, Leviticus was the system-

Seth: Oh

David: ... that was made to set up our categories for atonement.

Seth: Right.

David: A- anyway, we're getting, I'm getting way off track here.

Seth: No, that's really interesting.

David: But-

Seth: I have, like, it's, like, yeah, it's like so-

David: I have a lot of opinions about this. [laughs]

Seth: It's so far away from, uh, [laughs] Ecclesiastes 10, but it's fascinating. Uh, it's like the courtroom analogy for what happens with God when the wise one becomes a fool, like a fool and dies on the cross for-

David: Yes

Seth: ... somebody else's sins. I've always heard that, like, primarily as, like, legal.

David: Right.

Seth: And then I translate legal to court- courtroom.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: And, like, I import with that a whole bunch of unhelpful ... concepts of Western justice that are not indigenous or native to Leviticus, which is what it's actually referring to.

David: Yes.

Seth: Fascinating.

David: Yes.

Seth: We should just pause that there-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and then come back to that later. That's super fascinating.

David: Well, great. [laughs]

Seth: Um, but I was also thinking in this, more, more to the point, "There's an evil that I've seen under the sun, as it were, an error proceeding from the ruler. Folly is set in many high places, and the rich sit in the low place." Jesus commends that action to rich people and to wise people.

David: Mm.

Seth: "When you come to a table, take your seat at the lowest place." But the reason he does that is so that you will be properly placed by the leader of the feast, by the-

David: Mm

Seth: ... host of the party. It's like-

David: Right

Seth: ... "No, no, go sit in the low place so that you might be brought high and sat in-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the proper place."

David: Interesting.

Seth: So I w-

David: Yeah, that's right

Seth: ... I mean, so it's like now that I'm thinking about it, it's like, "Well, that actually makes a lot of sense." He's like, "There's a folly in the world where people misunderstand their place-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... misunderstand their authority. They are given authority they shouldn't have. They are in positions of power beyond their competence, and therefore, their, all their employees are suffering because of it. The wise thing to do is if you know that you're outmatched by your context in your job, you should ask for a demotion."

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, like, that's like-

David: Yep, yep

Seth: ... that would be part of the wisdom that's coming from here. If you find yourself at a fancy cocktail party and everybody's going up to say hello to the new s- the, the CEO in waiting, maybe you shouldn't. You don't need to do that unless-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... and then have somebody else in, bring you in.

David: Invite you over. Yeah.

Seth: Invite you over, and then you'd be honored not by just your, [tsks] I don't know, your networking-

David: Yes

Seth: ... capabilities-

David: Right

Seth: ... but by the, by the, the, uh, the, the... W- what are we saying?

David: The, the, the liaison or the, or the CEO's choice of you to bring you up.

Seth: Right. That's exactly right.

David: The host's choice to bring you up. Yep. That's very interesting.

Seth: So that's, so-

David: Jesus does pull on that thread

Seth: ... so now, now that I'm thinking about that, that's actually good wisdom. Um-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and then Jesus, like, ratifies it in all-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... those, um, [tsks] uh, his parables w- all his talks with the Pharisees. Anyway.

David: Yep, that's very true. That's very true. Um, there's, uh, 8 to 11 kind of goes through, like, the irony of work.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Chapter 10, verse 8 through 11 talks about how, like, if you are a pit digger, you're gonna fall into your own pit. [laughs] You know? If you are, like, the, someone who, like, is doing, I guess, like, demolition or something, and you break through a wall, you're gonna get bit by a snake that's hiding in there.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: You know? And it's like, if you are a courier of stones, o- one day you're gonna get injured by stones.

Seth: The rock's gonna fall on you.

David: And it's like-

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: ... the rock's gonna fall on you. And so it's like, it's just this irony of work that, uh, at the end of the day, you'll be consumed by that which you are trying to, um, uh, like, put things to consume on your table. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: You'll be eaten by the thing that earns your bread. It's-

Seth: Well, well, that's the curse, right?

David: Yes.

Seth: That's the curse from-

David: That's right

Seth: ... it's like the, you're gonna work the land, and the land-

David: Yep

Seth: ... is gonna be hard to work on. You're gonna-

David: Yep

Seth: ... try to bring forth fruit, and it's gonna-

David: And it's gonna-

Seth: ... bring forth-

David: Thorns

Seth: ... thorns and thistles. You're gonna-

David: Yep

Seth: ... try to break down a wall, and a snake's gonna bite you. You're gonna try to-

David: Yes. [laughs]

Seth: ... chop some wood, some wood's gonna get in your eye. Like, that's [laughs] like-

David: Yes. And so-

Seth: And then I love-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the next one then. "If the iron is blunt and one does not sharpen the edge, you're gonna have to use more strength, but wisdom helps one succeed." So you could work harder. You could just toil the land harder. You could just-

David: With a blunt, with a blunt ax. [laughs]

Seth: With... Yeah. Or you could sharpen the ax and not work harder but smarter.

David: Yep.

Seth: I love that little piece. I thought about that piece of advice all day. Like, if you use a little bit of wisdom, you could undercut the curse just a little bit.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, right? Like, I think-

David: Yeah, yeah, definitely

Seth: ... that's part of what he's getting at, right?

David: I think so. I think so.

Seth: It's like the curse brings forth thorns and thistles. It brings out-

David: Yep

Seth: ... snakes out of rocks. Rocks gonna fall on you.

David: So work a little smarter.

Seth: Work a little bit smarter, and you can undo a little bit [laughs] of the curse.

David: Yep. So then what's amazing is that Jesus works with full wisdom in the world. His work, that he comes into the world, is full of wisdom, and he doesn't just get rid of some of the curse for those who follow him. He gets rid of all of the curse.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, he cuts it off at the root, and he does so through an ironic work, right?

Seth: Right.

David: So, like, just as, you know, he's like, "If you quarry stones, a stone's gonna fall on you," he went and did his work on the cross to death, and yet ironically, he undid death.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So death did its work on Jesus, right?

Seth: Oh.

David: And it's like death comes and does its work on Jesus, and in, in trying to kill the author of life-

Seth: Mm

David: ... death kills itself. It's, it's kind of the irony here.

Seth: Or else even being, like, the accuser of the brethren, like, so-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the a- the a- the accuser, Satan-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... whose job is to accuse of a- us of all the things he does, of we, that we do wrong.

David: Yes.

Seth: He does his job on Jesus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Je- he goes to the quarry of Jesus and tries to accuse it to hell.

David: Yep, that's right.

Seth: [laughs] And all the rocks fall on accusation.

David: [laughs]

Seth: All the rocks fall on the accuser. The wood gets-

David: Yep

Seth: ... stuck in his own eye.

David: It's so good.

Seth: Uh, that's really... I love that. So, like, what does that mean then for our work after Jesus?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So if Jesus undoes the work of accusation, he do- undoes the work of death, um, and then-

David: We're able to work-

Seth: ... he frees us to work wisely.

David: We're, yeah, and we're, well, we're, we're able to work unironically, um, finally, that our work-

Seth: What does it mean to work ironically? [laughs]

David: Well, to work ironically is that we spend... Uh, is the whole point of the Book of Ecclesiastes, that you spend your whole life building something that you lose.

Seth: Mm.

David: Like, that's the whole point, is-

Seth: Right

David: ... all work is ironic. It's all hevel and smoke. But like we've talked about a couple times the last few episodes, is with Jesus, our work has a solid foundation now. It's, it-

Seth: Mm

David: ... like, because we can send the fruits of our labor ahead, uh, you know, in kind of like the treasures in heaven idea. Or even we know what is good work to be done, and so what we make here on Earth can pass through the fires of refinement when the new heavens and new Earth come. And so we can build things that have permanency now.

Seth: Mm.

David: We can build things that will last into eternity because we, uh, w- because we have the wisdom of Christ. We can build things with the grain of the universe so that they'll stay whenever Jesus returns. So I-

Seth: I don't know if we've talked about the irony of the Book of Ecclesiastes with as much-

David: Oh, no

Seth: ... clarity as we just, as you just said, and say, "Oh, the whole book of E- Ecclesiastes is ironic because-

David: Yes

Seth: ... you do one thing. You, you start working expecting one result, but you get its opposite." [laughs]

David: Yes, very ironic.

Seth: Like, oh, that's the definition of irony.

David: Yes.

Seth: You're doing one thing that implies its opposite. That's fascinating. Yeah. Um... I think that's true. And now I'm just, like, stuck on irony. I'm just thinking of all the ways- Oh, no ... that, like, uh, [laughs] our- We've done, we've done a whole episode o- of- Oh ... on irony with Esther. With Esther. I was just, now I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I have a whole new lens through which to see Ecclesiastes." [laughs] Just irony after irony after irony. And it's funny that, like, so much of, like, millennial humor is based around irony. And, like- Oh, yes ... people like make fun of culture now for just being incessantly ironic. Um, and it's like we try to undo the hevel of life by, the irony of life by being- By pointing out irony ... by pointing out how ironic it is, and then pretending- Which is ironic in itself. [laughs] And pretending we're okay with it. [laughs] Like, right. And so it's like- Oh, goodness ... the wisdom of Ecclesiastes would say, like, being ironic about irony doesn't work. Like, being- Right ... okay with the irony and pointing it out doesn't actually bring you peace from the irony. No. You need someone to enter into the irony fully and embody the irony- Mm ... in order to escape it. That's interesting. So I think we, think we can escape the irony of life, we can escape the, the frustration of life, the unmet expectations of life by just kinda laughing at it. Mm. "Oh, see, isn't that ironic? Ha ha ha ha." Ha ha ha. Yep. Like, "I'm so disconnected. I'm a, I'm a disaffected millennial. Look at that." Right. "Ha. Hilarious." But, like, millennials have some of the highest cases of depression, anxiety. Yeah. We're one of the most medicated generations. Like, irony as a solution to irony doesn't work. Right. Like, disinterested irony doesn't work. Yeah. What you need is an embodied... What it, what is it that Jesus does on the cross that's ironic? He dies and rises from the dead. He goes to death expecting death, but comes out of it. Like, we think he break- He, he, what he does is he breaks irony. He doesn't embody irony, he breaks it. Mm. So he, he goes, like, he, he goes to the- That's good ... same ironic end as everyone, that everyone else has built a life and ultimately dies. Jesus builds a life, and it keeps on living through death. Like- Mm ... he does not d- do the ironic. [laughs] Like- He shows us that irony- ... he finally breaks the cycle ... isn't all there is. That's right. There is- Mm-hmm ... sense to the world, and there is a way to have permanency and to have substance and to escape the smoke, and it's through his death and resurrection. To be joined with him is the only way to escape irony because it's the only way to attach yourself to something solid- Mm ... that doesn't fall back in on itself. Yeah. So that's interesting. That is interesting. That's good. Okay. Help me with this one. Okay. Verse nine- verse 19 of chapter 10. Is this the, is this... What is he getting at here? Did he lose his mind for this verse? "A feast is made for laughter, wine makes life merry, and money is the answer for everything." [laughs] W- money is the answer for everything? He says something really similar a few chapters back. Let me see if I can find it. What are your thoughts as I- Oh boy ... try to, to find this. I was just so caught off guard by that verse last night when I was reading it. I was like, "Money's the answer to everything?" I'm like, does he mean that, um, kinda like he did with, uh, with, uh, envy? Envy is the root cause of all- Mm-hmm ... toil. Is he saying that, like, "You wanna know why, you know, things are bad? It's 'cause people want money. Money's the root of all evil"? Is that what he's saying here? But it seems like these are all good things, like the feast helps you laugh, and wine makes you merry. Enjoy those things. We're told constantly throughout Ecclesiastes to enjoy those things. And you know what? If you wanna be wise, get some money, 'cause then he goes on in chapter 11 to talk about investing in a bunch of things. You know, don't make se- Diversifying your portfolio. [laughs] Yeah ... diver- d- don't just make seven investments, make eight. Don't just sell your grain in your local market. Put it on a ship and sell it across the sea, 'cause you don't know which market's gonna dry up. That's what- So- ... cast your bread on the waters means, by the way, guys. Oh. Like, so cast your bread on the waters, for you will find it after many days. Bread doesn't just mean literally bread- Right ... but, like, goods, livelihood, trade, markets. So you throw your- Oh ... throw- I'm reading the NI... I'm, I'm reading a different r- Oh ... a different version, so it doesn't have, it doesn't have it- Bread ... as a metaphor. Oh. It trans- it translates it like- Oh, it translates it. Yeah. [laughs] So yeah, that's exactly what it means. It's like, cast your bread on the water means, like, send your goods out to sea- Yes ... and then after many days it'll return, and you'll receive your reward. You'll receive your... Anyway. Right. Yes. So let's just- So it's just interesting. I'm like, i- so let me, let me lay out my confusion fully- Okay ... before you answer. So there's, like, it just seems like he's, like, celebrating wealth- Mm ... and money when he said that n- it's not good and it doesn't satisfy, and grabbing it with both hands is not a good idea. It seems like this kind of person who diversifies their portfolio and doesn't just plant their seeds in the morning, but also plants their seeds at night, is, like, grabbing toil with both hands again. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I'm just like, as we're ending the book, it just seems like he's collapsing back in on himself and saying, like, "Go work hard," and- Yeah, yeah ... which... So anyway, what, what, what's going on here? Well, one... Things that are going through my mind. So this is what Jewish meditation literature does. [laughs] This is, like, why I've been so helped by it. Say, "Okay, let's, let's play out the scenario. What if it's positive? Like, what if he's just saying money's good and actually answers all our problems?" Well, that creates a whole bunch of contradictions with what, what we've seen in Ecclesiastes beforehand. What else could be going on? Well, maybe it's entirely negative. Money answers everything is, um, the root of all evil. Money's the root of all evil. Right. Maybe that's what he's saying, and it's, like, an antonym. Yep. Bread is made for laughter. Wine gladdens the heart. Money ruins everything. Maybe it means that. But that's not always the way he talks about money. He just seems to say, like, it also has positive effects. So what's he talking about? Here's what he says in Ecclesiastes 7:12. "For the protection of wisdom is like the protection of money, and the advantage of knowledge is that wisdom preserves the life of him who has it." And so what he compares, he compares wisdom to money, and he says The same way that money can p- insulate you or buffer you from life's hardships, wisdom does that too. Wisdom c- makes the curse a little bit more bearable. Wisdom secures a little bit more reward for you in the afterlife. Um, and the money does the same thing on Earth. Money kinda makes hardships less hard.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And that's kinda just truth. Like, money makes hardships less hard. So I wonder if what he's saying here is bread is made for laughter, wine gladdens, gladdens life-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and money makes things easier.

David: Money is the answer for everything.

Seth: It's, um, the... Yeah. So it's kinda blunt, but it's also a pretty honest ass- assessment of how-

David: Of life under the sun

Seth: ... of life under the sun. Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... money does not buy happiness, but it does have an answer.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um-

David: Or as Jack Donaghy in 30 Rock says-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... "Mo- money can't buy happiness. Money is happiness."

Seth: [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: That's so great.

David: Oh, man.

Seth: The other thing I kept thinking of is what if we allow Ecclesiastes t- to chase an Ecclesiastes, and what if he means-

David: Yeah, that's what I was thinking

Seth: ... money in one hand, not in both hands-

David: Yeah. Mm-hmm

Seth: ... answers everything.

David: Yes.

Seth: And this idea of putting your goods out to sale, diversifying your portfolio, making sure that your crops are in season with the weather, that's actually what you should do with your money in one hand.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, it's wisely using your money, not obsessing over your money-

David: Right

Seth: ... but wisely using your money. Not like I do-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... with my mortgage payments and all my overdrafts I talked [laughs] about last week.

David: Yes.

Seth: But just, like, this is a wi- I've, I've been wise with my money, I made a mistake, I can absorb the overdraft fee.

David: Right.

Seth: Diversify your portfolio.

David: Right.

Seth: Grab a ho- be wise with your money.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Make investments, plant your seeds.

David: To say it another way, like, I think it would be easy to read Ecclesiastes and come to the conclusion that holding rest in one hand and toil in another makes you kind of lazy-ish.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, it's like not lazy completely, but like, you know, I'll work just hard enough to get by.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that is wisdom. That if I just go in and I punch the clock, and I come back home, and I rest and don't do anything, then, like, I'm being wise, and I know a lot of people who live that way.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I think what he's saying is like, "No, when I say grab toil with one hand, I mean do it with wisdom," and it means working really hard.

Seth: Right.

David: Um, it doesn't mean only ever working hard and never resting or enjoying the fruits of your labor. That would be Hevel. But-

Seth: I think maybe-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... another way to say what you're saying is grabbing hold of work with one hand or money with one hand is working hard.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Grabbing hold of money or work with two hands is working hard and putting all your hopes in work as well.

David: Yes, that's true.

Seth: Like, like a-

David: It's a heart condition

Seth: ... like the second hand is placing your heart there.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Your first, your f- one hand should be on hard work. The other hand should be on the rest that the Lord provides-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and the confidence that he approves of your work, which is what he talks about back in chapter 10, and that he's made a time for your work [laughs]

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and that he will judge every good work. That's also a theme talked about throughout Ecclesiastes.

David: Yep.

Seth: God will judge every work that is done and give you its proper reward one day.

David: Yes, which is, like, I just think, like, a, a way to think about the rhythm of work and rest that God has sewn all throughout the Bible, that, uh, for six days, God worked in making the world, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, I mean, he didn't just, like, haphazardly throw together the universe-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or the multiverse. [laughs] You know what I mean? [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: The, the, the, the, the tons of different universes is what I mean. Like, the-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... like, universe upon universe upon universe-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, and star upon star upon star and atom upon atom, and, you know, uh, w- uh, and, like, what do, what do you call it? The, the argument, uh, of the apologetic-

Seth: Argument

David: ... for, for how far the Earth is from the sun and-

Seth: Oh, like the fine-tuning

David: ... the fine-tuning. The fine-tuning argument

Seth: ... the fine-tuning argument. Yeah.

David: Yeah, and so it's like, it's a fine-tu- tuned universe. He worked really perfectly and with wisdom, and although God doesn't have to work hard to create in terms of effort, he worked hard, you know? Like, that's kind of... And then on the seventh day, he rested.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so I just think it's interesting-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that, like, that this is a really good rhythm, is like work hard and work wisely and work well, but don't, but, like, the Sabbath comes, and it reminds you that your work is not th- the end in itself.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: God's still in control-

David: Yes

Seth: ... even when you don't work. God's still working even when you don't work. [laughs]

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: God still approves of you even when you don't work.

David: Yes.

Seth: God still will, and God is judging rightly about the work that you did even while you're resting. Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... yeah.

David: And so I, I think it's just cool to see that, and then now in the new covenant, to know that Je- that, like, that in Jesus, we, like, He, first off, He did His work perfectly. He came to Earth and worked perfectly. He worked with wisdom. He sowed his seed at the right time. He, you know, He, He just, He did his ministry perfectly-

Seth: Right

David: ... even unto death.

Seth: Oh.

David: And, oh. [laughs]

Seth: I just had a, I just had a thought.

David: You're gasping.

Seth: Continue. Continue.

David: Okay, even unto death, and, um, and rested in the grave, and God affirmed his work by rising him from the dead, and now we can join in that work with him, you know, and that, and that we now can have a proper orientation towards work, that we can work hard for the Kingdom of God, and we can also rest in the Kingdom of God, that we can have Sabbath work every day-

Seth: Right

David: ... of the week. So anyway, what, what was, what was your epiphany?

Seth: Well, that's exac- well, that's exactly what I was gonna say. It's like when Je- Jesus talks about how the Sabbath regulations were undone, the-

David: Yes

Seth: ... regulations for work were undone by the Pharisees, and he's, and he makes the point, like, "Well, the priests are always working," or, "God is always working-

David: God is always working

Seth: ... so I am always working."

David: Right.

Seth: "And even your priests work on the Sabbath."

David: Right.

Seth: And the idea is that when Jesus comes A particular day is no longer the Sabbath, but every day is the Sabbath, but every day is also work. So every day there's both work and rest simultaneously, which is exactly the wisdom of Ecclesiastes.

David: Eden and Eden

Seth: And Eden.

David: Eden is work-rest bal- it's-

Seth: Eden is the, like the perfect balance between work and rest, where our work is actually restful and our rest actually produces something.

David: Which Eden was the, and Adam, Adam and Eve were, uh, were, are, are, are referenced and described as priests in Eden. They, they work-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the same verbs used to work the land in Eden is the same verbs commanded to the priest to work the tabernacle. And so to work on the Sabbath in the tabernacle is Edenic activity.

Seth: Wow.

David: It's, it's the way to be in Eden is to work on the Sabbath. And so, so Jesus then comes and brings rest to our lives and allows us every single day to work like we are in the Garden of Eden because we can have restful work that doesn't terminate on itself, but works for the kingdom, but does it with the s- like the, the peace of mind that comes from Christ.

Seth: With the one hand on work-

David: Oh, my gosh. [laughs]

Seth: ... and the one hand on rest. My gosh, that ends-

David: Whoa

Seth: ... up being our favorite little line from all of Ecclesiastes. [gentle music]

David: Okay, so we are nearing the end of Ecclesiastes. We have two main sections left. We have the, uh, words to the youth, the young people.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then we have the conclusion of the book. So let's talk about those and then we'll be done with Ecclesiastes. So you have this section here, um, in, that starts in 11:9, and it says, "You who are young, be happy while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the day of your youth." Because it talks about a day, it, once it gets to chapter 12, it talks about there will be a day when everything, like the, the worries of life end up overtaking you and everything becomes terrible.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And you know, you know, what do they say? Uh, but, but youth is wasted on the young. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That is really s- kinda gets pretty close to the heart of the sections in the youth, like enjoy your youth while you have it-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because one day it won't be there.

David: Right.

Seth: He says in verse eight, "If a person lives many years, let him rejoice in them all. But let him remember that the days of darkness will be many. All that comes is vanity." And I actually think maybe the better, so vanity has like a, a range of meanings, and one of the, like the most obvious one is breath.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like that's the way it's used fairly frequently-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is breath. And it, it can just mean brief. So it's like, like life is brief. [laughs]

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like youth and the dawn of life are vanity. Youth and the dawn of life are brief. So if you want to honor the God that gave you this season, enjoy it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Rejoice in what the Lord has given you for this brief period of time.

David: Mm.

Seth: And then he says in 12:1, "Remember also the Creator in the days of your youth."

David: Yes.

Seth: Do you wanna say more about what it means to like, uh, uh, rejoice in our youth?

David: No, I wanna talk about remembering your Creator, because I think that's the point here-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that life is brief, brief. It's breath. It's quick. Um, soon you'll be old and nothing will matter, and you might be so calloused when you're older that your heart is hard and you can't turn to your Creator. You know, like it's easier to raise up a child in the way they should go, 'cause then when they're old they'll walk in it, than it is to, you know, talk to someone who's lived for 70 years-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and has opinions and is hard-hearted and beaten up by life. It's just easier to have your heart bent-

Seth: Mm

David: ... towards God from a young age. And so I-

Seth: So do it before.

David: Yeah, before-

Seth: Before

David: ... before you're all bent out of shape by the world, you know? Like I just think there's a lot of wisdom here in, um, like pastoring youth and like, [laughs] you know? Like-

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's your-

Seth: Which really fascinating.

David: Yeah, yeah.

Seth: Uh, this whole section is, uh, he kinda gives this picture of old age where it's kind of like a, the old age is like a storm-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... destroying a city. It's like a, a sh- I, I, like a shuttered, like, like a ghost town. It's like, um, a, uh, a bowl being smashed or a bucket being destroyed at the bottom of a dry well.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's just these really intense images of what old age must feel like. So I just imagine like old Solomon, like, or just-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... an old king saying like, "This is how I see, feel old age taking over."

David: [laughs]

Seth: And I was even reading one commentator, like a lot of people-

David: [laughs] This is j-

Seth: What?

David: I'm just laughing 'cause it's like this is, this is, this is the wisest man on Earth's way of saying his hip hurts.

Seth: [laughs] Yeah. It's like, like, and it's beautiful.

David: It's just very poetic and beautiful.

Seth: It's beautiful.

David: But really he's just going, "Ah, my, my hip hurts." [laughs]

Seth: It's gonna rain.

David: It's gonna rain.

Seth: My bones feel it. [laughs] I can feel it in my bones.

David: Before we-

Seth: So this-

David: ... go back to being serious about your commentators.

Seth: No, no, no, I mean, this, to your point, "Before the sun and the light of the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain, remember your Creator. In the day when the keepers of the house tremble and the strongmen are bent and the grinders cease because there are few, and those who look through the window are dim and the doors on the street are shut, remember your Creator."

David: Mm.

Seth: "When the sound of the grinding..." Which I guess just meant, just means like labor. Like I-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... think, I think like jackhammers in New York City-

David: Oh, sure

Seth: ... or cop cars, like-

David: It was probably a stone mill.

Seth: Yeah, the stone. "When the sound of the grinders is low and one rises up at the sound of a bird." So two things. One, it's so quiet that you've been woken from your sleep by a bird.

David: Like the tweeting of a bird.

Seth: By a tweeting of a bird. But also one thing I know from all of my older relatives is they don't sleep well at night.

David: Yep.

Seth: Like, it's just like he's describing old age in really metaphorical and vivid language. And the way that the image, I, I read one commentator who said the way that the imagery is stacked up on top of one another, it's not a consistent metaphor.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: One s- one second he's talking about grinding, next second he's talking about birds.

David: Right.

Seth: One second he's talking about a storm, next m- minute he's talking about bowls. And he says old age is pictured, uh, one l- uh, uh, without one line of thought being maintained throughout.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Just in the same way that, like even your mind as you age, like- You, like, you, it's more difficult as your brain decays to string together thoughts.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, um, or even like, I'm sure you've had that experience with, like, an older person. They just keep telling the story and, like, adding details that you-

David: Yes

Seth: ... don't need to, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... necessarily, necessarily move the narrative forward. But, like, that's part, I don't know why that's... I think what he's doing here is, like, the text itself is, like, an image of old age.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, anyway.

David: That's very good. Yeah. Um, yeah, and I think what's happening here then is he's trying to show, i- i- 'cause we've talked about how this is probably something like a parent talking to a child, talk-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... you know, like a father talking to a son, and the last thing he wants to leave his son with is this warning about, um, youth, is to remember your youth and make the most of it. And most of all, turn your heart toward the Creator right now before-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... it's too late, before-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... old age takes over and you're too depressed to turn to God. [laughs] Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or too out of sorts or disconnected or run down or whatever. And so I just think it's a, it's, it's a little haunting, you know?

Seth: It is.

David: But, like, I think w- I d- I think what he, I don't think what he's saying is, um, you know, make the most of your youth. Like, soak up life as much as you can-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... while you're young, because when you're old-

Seth: It's a graduation speech.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, it's not a graduation speech.

David: Because when, yeah, because when you're old, you won't be able to go to Spain and, you know, run with the bulls.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know? Like, so do it when you're young. I don't think that's what he's saying. I'm s- I, I think he's saying that old age will make you callous and will, will rip sanity from your mind.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And you need to decide right now, son, before it's too late, to remember your Creator. Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I just think that is, is really, and, and then he, and he says, "And do it before you die, uh, before your spirit returns to the God who gave it. Do it now. Um, remember Him before you die." Uh, he's like, "There should be one thing on your bucket list, my son-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... and it's remember God." [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: "That's the one thing you need to do before you die." Which-

Seth: Remember the Lord

David: ... he sounds like a crusade evangelist.

Seth: He really does.

David: If you died today-

Seth: It's like, I feel like I've heard a version of th- like, when I was a s- a kid, I feel like I heard a version of this talk by somebody not as qualified as Qohelet to speak about them.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And you know what? It actually, it's like, I've heard this talk, say, "Hey, you're gonna get old one day."

David: Yep.

Seth: "And, like, you don't wanna do a deathbed confession. You're gonna get old one day. You're not gonna be able to do... Remember God now before your heart gets hard." I've heard-

David: Mm

Seth: ... a version of that. But what makes this one so powerful is that, is who's saying it.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's the man who tried everything.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That-

David: Wow

Seth: ... if you had somebody, if you had Tony Stark, like-

David: [laughs]

Seth: Tony Stark is the best example of Co- like-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... Qohelet right now. He's a genius. He's smart, successful. He has all the women, all the money-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... all the pleasure.

David: The best goatee in the world.

Seth: The best, the only goatee that's allowed [laughs] in the world.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Like, he's smart, he's funny.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, but, like, so, like, the only reason, like, if Tony Stark came to the end of his life as Iron Man-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and he said, "Everything I've done is smoke."

David: Yep. He'd say, "If I could leave you with one piece of advice, it would be be a Christian."

Seth: Remember God.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. I was like, oh gosh.

David: Wow.

Seth: Right?

David: Thanks, Tony.

Seth: Tony, I was not expecting that turn.

David: [laughs]

Seth: But I'm gonna s- but f- I'm gonna consider that far.

David: I'm gonna take that very seriously.

Seth: Very seriously. [laughs]

David: Yep.

Seth: Remember God-

David: That, that is good

Seth: ... while you're still young.

David: It's, uh, yeah, it's, that's very good. Um, yeah, I also think it's interesting too, like, why, you know, and I think we don't need to think of it necessarily like, just 'cause it probably wasn't in Qohelet's mind as much as it is in ours, uh, he probably isn't thinking like, "You better turn to God before it's too late and you go to hell." Like, you know?

Seth: Yep.

David: I think he's remembering, he's trying to say, like-

Seth: I've heard that sermon too. [laughs]

David: Yeah. I, I think what he's saying here is, um, he's talking about how to live a life of profit that benefits you and that's good and wise.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And he said the only way to do that is to turn to God and remember your Creator. And so he's like, "If you wanna live a life that's not full of smoke and completely meaningless, remember your Creator in your youth. Start living a life that actually has meaning now-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... before everything you've done is meaningless. The only way to live a life of meaning is to live a life that is remembering your Creator, that is a life lived in the light of Yahweh." Like, I think that's what he's saying.

Seth: This jumps to our conclusion, but he says the same thing-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in verse 13.

David: Well, hold on. Before you say he-

Seth: "The end of the matter-"

David: But hold on, hold on

Seth: ... "all has been heard."

David: Oh.

Seth: Oh.

David: Can, y- h- before you, before you say he says the same thing, this isn't Qohelet-

Seth: Oh

David: ... at the end, because we have a third-

Seth: Yes

David: ... person reference to, to, he says, this is verse nine, "Not only was the teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to people." So let's just remember, this is now an, the editor or the person who, who gathered this, this book from Qohelet-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and gave it to his son. So you have this, you have this book from, from Qohelet w- written from a king to his prince, in a sense.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? Or, or f- from a king to his people, from the qohaler to the qohaled, right?

Seth: Yes.

David: And then, uh, you have this, this father coming along, gathering this father to son language, and giving it to his son, and saying, "Son, listen to this wisdom."

Seth: Yes.

David: So, okay.

Seth: And he kinda sums up Qohelet by saying, "The end of the matter, after all this has been heard, fear God and keep His commandments. This is the whole duty of mankind."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So it goes r- exactly back to what you were saying about how Qohelet ends his section. It's like-

David: Yes

Seth: ... "Remember your Creator, be wise."

David: Mm.

Seth: "Remember your Creator, keep His commandments." And what does Jesus say? "Love God-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... love your neighbor." What, the whole law, all of God's commandments can be summed up by loving God and loving your neighbor, and he says the exact same thing, "Fear God, keep His commandments."

David: Yep.

Seth: That's the whole duty of man. Now, I, I think it's also interesting that he says, "The whole duty of man," 'cause I think it implies that keeping the commandments Isn't just strict adherence to the 613 laws laid out-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in the Torah. It's your whole life is spent embodying the character and nature and the fear of the Lord-

David: Mm

Seth: ... wherever it may, wherever you may end up landing. And he says that is the good life.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The good life is loving God and loving neighbor, fearing the Lord and keeping His commandments.

David: Yeah. That's good. That's really good. I think, um, uh, I wanna go back and talk about the other parts of this conclusion, too, but while we're here, uh, I'll tie this up. I, I think what I love about this final command, "Here's the end of the matter. Here's the whole duty of man," which is, like, great. Finally.

Seth: The meaning of life? [laughs]

David: Yeah, like, could, could we have just put this at the beginning of the book and saved-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... myself the t- the t- turmoil of it all? But, um, but I think what's amazing about this is i- if the, if Qohelet's experiment was this thing that was done under the sun, then there, and he mentions two things that cut through that division of not wanting to bring God into the equation, or trying to just take, um, a, like, the pragmatic pulse of the world around him and figure out how things would work if you took God out of the equation, uh, that he just cuts through it. He says, "Fear God," which is obviously looking above the sun.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? Like, honoring him, revering him above all else.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Not putting toil or work or wealth or women above everything else, but putting God above everything else. And then he says, "And obey his commandments."

Seth: Yeah.

David: The commandments of God are these, um, are these bits of revelation, right? The commandments of God, if you even think about, like, when they came, the commandment, the word "commandment" especially, is Exodus. Like, the Ten Commandments.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, he's like, "Remember Mount Sinai, when He who was above the sun came below and spoke to us, when He actually told us the meaning of life." You wanna know the meaning of life? God has told us what it is-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... whenever He appeared-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to us, and it's that He would be our God, and we would be His people, and that we would live in equity with one another, and that we would do good and fear Him and live in love with Him-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and neighbor. Like, it's just, it's an amazing bit of, of knowledge. It's like we can't figure out how to live in this world under the sun, but we don't-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... have to because He who is above the sun has given us the wisdom we need to live below it.

Seth: And what I love, too, just from a different perspective about this line, is that we've spent 11 chapters, it, like, seeing hevel, seeing a cursed world, and these little glimpses of what life, like, why, like, why you need to look above the, the cursed world, why you need to fear God, why you need to keep His commandments. And he sums up all 11 chapters in one sentence.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "Fear God. [laughs] Keep His commandments."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "This is the whole duty of man." And then the next line is really important, too. "Because God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil." So I think one of the things that Qohelet brings up over and over again is injustice-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... uh, or justice gone wrong, or evil people getting ahead and young people, or good people dying young. Like-

David: Right

Seth: ... there's this inequity everywhere. God, the reason why we can trust that fearing God and keeping His commandments is the wise way to live is because God will bring every deed into perfect judgment.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He will judge good people rightly and evil people wrong, rightly as well.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, the cursed world, the world of hevel never gets that judgment right. But in God, it will be judged right.

David: Yes.

Seth: Evil will be punished, and good people will be rewarded-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... finally.

David: Finally. Yeah, that's the good-

Seth: Finally

David: ... that's the good news, is that, um, is that in the cross, um, evil was punished, sin was killed, death was swallowed up. Like, there was perfect punishment in the cross, and we can live inside of that, that perfect punishment, and that forgiveness now is extended to us, knowing that perfect justice has been done on our behalf. But then we can also know that there will come a day when Jesus will return and execute perfect justice to everything that has gone unpunished.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I, I realized as we were talking about this in a previous episode, we never brought up Romans 3 into this, and how, like, you know, it just seems like bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, and people get away with evil things all the time, and it just seems like all these sins are going unpunished.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like that is exactly what Paul says in Romans 3. He says, "Because He left former sins unpunished until the time of the cross, so that He could be just and justifier on the cross." And it's like God knows a time for everything, and, like, He knows when He will execute justice perfectly.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so yes, He passes over a lot of sin in order to take that sin on Himself in the cross, and yet He's doing it again now until the fullness of sin is racked up in the world, and there will be a day of reckoning when He comes, and He rights the ship, and He holds the world accountable. And it's good news for two reasons. It's good news because we can escape the judgment that we deserve in the death of Jesus, and it's good news that judgment is coming, and that justice and peace-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... will, will reign, and, like, wrongs will be righted. So it's just good news on both sides.

Seth: And good news for a third reason.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: It's not just because, uh, we escape the justice we deserve. It's not just good news because the wicked will be finally punished. It's also good news because our good works will actually be rewarded.

David: Oh, yes. Reward.

Seth: Like, it's also good-

David: Yes

Seth: ... reward. Like, not only are we given Christ's righteousness and good works-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... we are promised that the good works that we do, the treasure we store up in Heaven, will one day actually be returned to us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's, uh, not for nothing. Like, it's-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... not hevel-

David: Right

Seth: ... to do w- wise work in a world where it won't be rewarded.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because there is coming a day when you will be rewarded perfectly because of Jesus.

David: That is so good. Yes, and I think that is the solution to the book.

Seth: Yes. I think that's the, that is the good news of the Book of Ecclesiastes

David: That's the good news of the Book of Ecclesiastes. Yep, that when you get stuck in a world of hevel, you have to know that eventually good works will be rewarded and wrongs will be righted. It's, uh, just such good news, and, like, all that happens so perfectly in Jesus. Um, uh, before we wrap up, which we need to do quickly, um, uh, I just think we should go back just a little bit. We went a little out of order-

Seth: We did go out of order

David: ... but it's fine. But I just, we can't miss nine and 11, uh, of chapter 12. So I just love this. "Not only was the teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. The teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote is upright and true." So, like, this is a good book, he's saying.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This is right, and it's true. And, like, you might think he's being haphazard with some of his conclusions and some of his words, but he searched for the perfect word, like, whenever he wrote it in Ecclesiastes, and, like, he knew exactly what he was writing, and it was good. Um, so I just-

Seth: Then he-

David: I love that.

Seth: I- which I, I, I don't wanna tell, say I, "I told you so." However, this does seem to go against some of your earlier statements, David, where [laughs] you did not agree that all the wisdom found in Ecclesiastes was good. [laughs]

David: Oh, I don't know if I ever said that.

Seth: Maybe, well, how... Okay, I think I said pre- um, what am I trying to say? I think you had mentioned, like, 'cause I said something along the lines of, like, "I think this is, the words of Qohelet would also be the words of Jesus."

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: Like, there'd be Messianic wisdom.

David: Right.

Seth: And I kind of think that's-

David: I still stand by that. I think-

Seth: You still stand by that?

David: Oh, absolutely, because I think he can choose the right words to... He's bringing us wisdom, and he's speaking... You, you can, like, I can, I can help you understand something by painting two extremes to help you get to a middle.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But I can, but, you know, like, I can say an extreme on one side, an extreme on the other, to get you to the truth in the middle.

Seth: Right, right, right, right, right.

David: And so I, I think that he is crafting-

Seth: Yes

David: ... a narrative and crafting-

Seth: Yes

David: ... a worldview in order to bring it crashing down, in a sense.

Seth: I think you're right.

David: And so, um, there are things that Qohelet would say that I just don't see fit wholesale on the, on the lips of Jesus, but I don't, that doesn't mean they're not upright and true.

Seth: Right.

David: And I think the, and I think the overall combined wisdom of, of Ecclesiastes is Messianic and Jesus would say. Um, but yeah. Anyway.

Seth: Which is helpful-

David: I, yeah

Seth: ... because I, I love-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the way, as you said, that, like, he's gives you one s- the left side and the right side of the worldview-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and to bring it crashing down.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Because that's exactly what verse 11 says, "The words of the wise are like-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... goads and like nails firmly fixed." So a goad would be like a sharp stick you would hit an animal, you would s- poke an animal with to keep it going straight.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, down the middle path, down the middle of the road.

David: Right.

Seth: And he's like, "The words of the wise are gonna protect, are like goads protecting you from the ditch on either side, and they are given by a shepherd."

David: Yeah.

Seth: The, or one shepherd.

David: Or one shepherd, yep.

Seth: And so here's the question: Who is the shepherd?

David: Yes.

Seth: Who is the shepherd?

David: I mean, yeah. The, the, I mean, constantly throughout the Old Testament, God himself is referred to as the shepherd of Israel-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the shepherd of his people, and then Jesus takes that title on himself, which is one of the ways that he calls himself divine.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so here it's just, uh, the shepherd of Israel could also be the king, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But, I mean, this is, there's one king or a shepherd, and he's talking about that there are many different proverbs that, and there's a, there's collected sayings. The collected sayings of the wise probably referring to both the book that we're t- we're in right now, the, the writings of Qohelet and Ecclesiastes-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but also its companion, Proverbs-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that we've constantly said are at war with each other.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: He said they are the left and the right goad, that sometimes you're, you're walking down the middle path, and you're straying a little bit to the left, and Qohelet comes and pokes you and gets you back to the center. But then if you start going too far to the right, Proverbs comes around and pokes you on the other side.

Seth: Right.

David: And so you need both in order to not pendulum swing to one side or the other. You need Proverbs on one side and Ecclesiastes on the other to give you a full picture of how the world works to keep you going down the center path.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right. And I think-

David: And I, and I think, and I think what's amazing is, b- and the reason why they can operate like that, though they seem so different, is because they share one common author, who is God-

Seth: The shepherd

David: ... inspiring wise people through the Holy Spirit in order to shepherd his people.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, so there, is a l- little bit of, like, a proof text for divine authorship of scripture here, [laughs] but-

Seth: There is. It's like the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it s- it seems as if Solomon knows that, like, Ecclesiastes and Proverbs isn't just being written by him.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, that there's a divine agent at work as well, which is-

David: Yeah. Super cool

Seth: ... and I think, and I think it's also a helpful way to think about, another way to think, proof text for a Christ-centered reading of scripture.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, Jesus, like, says he's the one shepherd.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we're told right here that the one shepherd is the inspirer behind the Book of Ecclesiastes and the Book of Proverbs.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And Jesus tells us very explicitly that he is the gate and the narrow way.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like [laughs] like, that he is the one who will keep us and hold us on that path. So I could easily see Jesus speaking Ecclesiastes to the people that need it-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the Book of Proverbs to the people that need it, and, like, poking us either way, leading us to, um-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... leading us, us to himself, leading us to the Lord.

David: Yeah. And in that way, you're absolutely right that the words of Ecclesiastes are the words of Jesus because he is the shepherd who wrote this book.

Seth: Right. [laughs]

David: [laughs] So that's so good. Well, Seth-

Seth: That's it

David: ... Ecclesiastes.

Seth: It's done.

David: That was, that was a hard book.

Seth: It, I think-

David: That was a hard book

Seth: ... it's been the hardest book we've-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... studied and tried to talk about.

David: I think so, too, which is probably appropriate.

Seth: It's only about the meaning of life.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] The whole duty of man.

David: How there, how there isn't one until the end.

Seth: Until the end. [laughs]

David: Oh, man. Well, okay. Um, any last general observations about Ecclesiastes that you could sum up in a sentence or two-

Seth: Oh

David: ... that, other than that was hard?

Seth: No, not really. That was hard.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I also really enjoyed it.

David: I did, too.

Seth: I had a good time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, and I, here's what I'll say.

David: Okay.

Seth: I don't think I was wise enough to study the book of th- of Ecclesiastes at this point in my life. [laughs]

David: Nope, I think, I, I think I'm right there with you, that-

Seth: I feel like maybe, like, 10 years from now, we should try it again.

David: We should.

Seth: And then we'll be, like, 10 years out. I think we'll be ready 10 years from now. [laughs]

David: That's right. Yeah. No, it's true. But, uh, you know, I think, I think that's also part of it is, like, there, there is some, some smoke here we're trying to grab, and it's slipping through our fingers, but in doing that, we're kind of showing the point of Ecclesiastes. [laughs] So insofar as we missed it, hopefully that also is the point of Ecclesiastes, too. [laughs]

Seth: Yes.

David: But, uh, it's good. Uh, it makes me long for Jesus. Ecclesiastes really makes me long for Jesus-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because it, it makes me really realize how fleeting, short, unsatisfying the, the way of the world is, and it makes me want Jesus. But it also makes me, like, really enjoy game nights with my wife, like last night, where I was like, we were just having fun and playing Scattergories, and I was like, "Hey, I'm obeying Qohelet."

Seth: Yeah, enjoying the wife of your youth. Yeah.

David: I am.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I was enjoying the wife of my youth. So I was just like, "That's nice." It's like-

Seth: That's nice

David: ... I, I can do, I can be doing the right thing here by resting and playing with my wife. So anyway.

Seth: And I don't think, here's the other thing I'll say about Ecclesiastes, I don't think I would have gained much from Ecclesiastes from trying to read it in three days.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: If I was just like, "Oh, it's 12 chapters, I'll read three or four chapters a day," I don't think I would have gained as much as I should-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... ha- having done that. Like, Ecclesiastes invites us to, to sit, to meditate, to think hard thoughts, to act like a philosopher, [laughs] like a philosophy professor for a season of time, and really dig deep-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... because these are deep questions. And I mean, even w- a, the example with us, we just like that phrase, like grabbing one handful of quietness and one handful of toil.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, how many, we did like two or, we talked about that over the course of two or three podcast episodes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like two or three hours before we were like, "Oh."

David: Oh, it's kind of like Eden-

Seth: That's really good news

David: ... and the priests in the tabernacle.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: That's really good news. It's how I, it's how I should live every day, and oh, my gosh, yeah. So yes, I think so. Meditate on this book. Um, it is good news. Qohelet and Ecclesiastes have good news for you and good news for us, so hopefully we'll continue to meditate on it and continue to be informed in the days of our youth.

Seth: Yes.

David: So anyway, well, thanks for being on this ride with us, guys. We, uh, we love you, and we appreciate you listening, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

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Qohelet's Last Words: How Ecclesiastes Points Us to Jesus

Show Notes

Learning to Read Ecclesiastes

The Poor Wise Man and the Wisdom of the Cross

Princes in the Place of Slaves

The Irony of Work and the One Who Broke It

Money, Bread on the Waters, and the Rhythm of Work and Rest

Remember Your Creator and the End of the Matter

Related Resources

Introduction to Ecclesiastes

View our devotional on Ecclesiastes 1

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Ecclesiastes Introduction podcast

Listen to the Ecclesiastes 1-2: Nothing Matters podcast

Listen to the Ecclesiastes 3:1-16: Eternity in our Hearts podcast

Listen to the Ecclesiastes 3:16-6:11: Unmet Expectations podcast

Listen to the Ecclesiastes 7-9:10: Cursed and Crooked podcast

Listen to the Ecclesiastes 9:11-12: Qohelet's Last Words podcast