Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right. Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, good morning.
Seth: Good morning, good morrow-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Good evening, from wherever you are hailing. [laughs]
David: [laughs] You... That is some intense, uh, Old English or something.
Seth: Well, I wanna make sure, ugh, I wanna make sure that everybody who is listening across time zones and is familiar with-
David: All included
Seth: ... Old English, all included.
David: It's a very-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... broad, yet specific audience.
Seth: [laughs]
David: There, there's a, there's a time to talk to, to the Old English people, and a time to talk to, I, I don't know-
Seth: Everybody in all time zones ever
David: ... everybody in all time zones ever
Seth: And that moment was then.
David: That was it.
Seth: That was it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Well-
David: That, that was my lame attempt to try to quote or co-opt-
Seth: Ecclesiastes [laughs]
David: ... Ecclesiastes 3, which is where, where we are today.
Seth: Where we are headed, and potentially one of the most famous passages in all of scripture.
David: Yes. This is, this is definitely one of the most famous passages in scripture. Ecclesiastes 3 has been used in classical musical compositions. Um-
Seth: What? I didn't know that.
David: Yeah, yeah. It's, there's like this whole, um, he, he-
Seth: I thought you were gonna, like, quote Leonard Cohen or something, [laughs] but, uh, like classical music compositions.
David: Yeah. There's, like, some... I'll have to f- I'll have to find it. Um, but it was even mentioned in a few of the commentaries I read, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, I've heard that song before." I think we sang it in ch- in choir back in college or something.
Seth: Oh, cool.
David: But, um, yeah. Uh, people know this verse. Um, uh, I don't think it's read at weddings.
Seth: No.
David: Is it?
Seth: Uh, [laughs] I wouldn't put it-
David: We... I wouldn't put it past them.
Seth: "A time to kill and a time to heal."
David: [laughs] Okay, maybe not.
Seth: "A time to break down and a time to build up."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "A time to cry and a time to laugh."
David: But yes, that is the text we're in. You, you-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... you're probably familiar with it. If you're not, it, it, it, it's one of those things that even w- if you read it unfamiliar, it sounds familiar-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause it's just so famous and well-written. So Ecclesiastes 3, "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens. A time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build." And then jump- jumping to the end, "A time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace." So there it is.
Seth: Famous, famous poem.
David: Yes. And-
Seth: What's it mean?
David: Yeah, go ahead.
Seth: What's it mean?
David: [laughs] What's it mean, David?
Seth: I didn't know we were gonna talk about that today.
David: Um-
Seth: 'Cause what it sounds like is fatalism. What it sounds like is-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... whatever happens is gonna happen. We die, we're born, life's a jumble of opposites.
David: Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Suck it, life. Like, [laughs] you know, like it's like it feels really... And I mean, we talk about the pessimism, nihilistic versus optimistic reading of this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... th- of the Book of Ecclesiastes.
David: Oh, right. In this-
Seth: And this definitely feels like one of those moments where it's like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "See? Life's a jumble of opposites."
David: Right.
Seth: There's no redeemable pattern except people die sometimes and people live sometimes.
David: Yep. And it, and-
Seth: People are killed and people are healed
David: ... yeah, and if you're reading it with the whole of Ecclesiastes so far ringing in your head, you're probably like, "And it probably just gets doled out randomly."
Seth: Yep.
David: Yep.
Seth: Everything's capricious. The people that-
David: Yep
Seth: ... die shouldn't have. The people that live shouldn't have. [laughs] Like-
David: No, yeah, totally
Seth: ... the people that die should keep living.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And speaking of how we, we, we've talked about this in the introduction in the last episode and now we can talk about it here, is, you know, you either, a lot of people either read Ecclesiastes optimistically or pessimistically, like you were saying.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And so that's the pessimistic reading. I've also heard this optimistically, like, where it's like-
Seth: Okay
David: ... you know, "There was a, there's a time for peace, but now is the time for war." Like-
Seth: [laughs] Optimistically, a time for David to go to war. [laughs]
David: You know what I mean? It's like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... well, like, um, I've, I've heard this, I've heard this used at, at funerals. That's what I was thinking. Not weddings, but, but funerals.
Seth: So the opposite of a wedding. [laughs]
David: The opposite of a wedding, where it's, you know, there was a, there's a time to be born and there's a time to die. Like, this person's death-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that we're here commemorating, um, has come to its proper end, and, you know, it's the circle of life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it, it's a way to think about it. You know, there-
Seth: Which is kinda like what we had back in the beginning.
David: Mm.
Seth: We had, um, the, like con- the stream-
David: Yep
Seth: ... goes from its spring all the way down to the ocean, yet the ocean is never filled up. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... yeah.
David: That's right. And so, um, but I, I don't think either of those, uh, views give quite enough, um, like, credit to the context, [laughs] uh, because the, uh, the author of this poem then explains the poem-
Seth: He does
David: ... after the poem. [laughs]
Seth: He does.
David: And we just kind of, like, skip that part.
Seth: Verse 9.
David: Yep.
Seth: "What gain has the worker from his toil?" So it's the same question he's al- he's been asking before him.
David: From the beginning. It's his thesis statement.
Seth: Um, "I have seen the business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with." And just side note there, so this is the same question that we were asking from the beginning, and that phrase also comes back from the circularity of life passage at the very beginning. But he says there, "It's an unhappy business that the Lord has given." Anyway, just flag it. It's like an-
David: Yep. It- things are being repeated.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then verse 11, "God has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart, yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so he's saying, we, we need to understand what he means by the word time here, but before we jump into that, w- what we need to understand is that this is, you know, Ecclesiastes as a whole, but especially this here and the section we're about to go into, is wisdom literature. And-
Seth: Right
David: ... a big concept of wisdom literature is just doing the right thing at the right timeIt's wh- do you know when to be just and when to show mercy? Do you know when to give counsel or when to keep your opinions to yourself? You know, do you know when to seek help or when to do something yourself? Like-
Seth: Yeah, I'm thinking that there's like a word given in se- season is one of the proverbs
David: Yes, a word given in its season is like balm to the soul-
Seth: I've-
David: Or something like that. [laughs]
Seth: I've tried, I've tr- Proverbs 15:23.
David: Yeah, I think that's 15.
Seth: Okay. I think I found it.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Uh, "A person finds joy in giving an apt or a timely reply."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And how good a timely word it is." Uh, I think, my, I actually remember this phra- my dad used to quote, like, um, pray Proverbs over me every night-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... before I went to bed.
David: That's nice.
Seth: Um, and this is the one he would always quote to me, "A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth, and a word spoken in due season, how good it is." That's-
David: How good it is.
Seth: How good it is.
David: I like how like, is that, is that King James?
Seth: That's King James, yeah.
David: Yeah, King James sometimes sounds like Yoda, especially the Proverbs.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And that's awesome.
Seth: [laughs] It sounds so good.
David: Spoken in due season.
Seth: A word spoken in season, how good it is. [laughs]
David: That's a bad Yoda, but there you go.
Seth: That was, uh, mine was equally bad.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um-
David: But anyway, so what we need to understand here is that, um, he's talking about, um, he's been on this quest, Qohelet has been on this quest to find profit in his labor, right? To, to find gain in this life, to find satisfaction and meaning that will hold. Um, and yet he seems to always be missing it. It seems like he's about to grab onto something that will finally work through whatever avenue he's tried-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
David: ... and he reaches out to grab it, and as soon as his fingers are almost wrapped around it, it turns into smoke.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It seems like he's always in the wrong place at the wrong time. He's almost about to have profit and meaning, but it eludes his grasp. He, he's not quite able to be the wise man he wants to be.
Seth: Are you saying, are you saying that like, so he, in his autobiography where he just-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... runs the experiment-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and tries all his pleasure, are you saying if he would've just tried it two minutes later, it would've satisfied him?
David: Uh, hypothetically, yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, that's the hypothetical problem that we're running up against, but he would've never known if it was supposed to be two minutes or two and a half minutes.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's also not just about, quote unquote, time, but it's also about, like, method and, you know, so it's not only like, um, oh, if I would've done this exact same thing two minutes later. It's also like if I would've done this instead of that at the same time.
Seth: So it's not, like, so what he's highlighting here is the fact that time, doing things in the right time is like a product of true divine wisdom.
David: That's right.
Seth: And one of the, one of the reasons why his life, uh, was hevel, why his life felt like chasing after the wind, was even the good and right things that he did were done out of step with the timing that the Lord had allotted.
David: That's right.
Seth: Is that right?
David: And, yes, and I think his point is that, uh, at least, we'll, well, we'll get there. Uh, I think his, his overall, his point is that everything we do is out of step because, like, a- anytime we're trying to find meaning under the sun, we're trying to find it apart from what's above the sun.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, God is doing something, and we can't quite sync up with it. Um, before we get there, um, I, I wanna, I just wanna make a few notes about the, the poem itself.
Seth: Okay. Yeah.
David: Um, so it uses a couple of literary devices that we just need to be familiar with, so put on your nerd hats, everyone. But, um, it uses, um, merisms-
Seth: This would be my regular, my regular hat.
David: Your regular hat.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: It's just your regular hat.
Seth: Merisms.
David: So merisms are like, uh, head to toe. It uses two extremes to talk about the whole. And so, uh, when I say, "Oh, man, that guy's corrupt head to toe," it means every single part of him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, not only his physical attributes, but also his, the way his mind works and his intents-
Seth: From stem to stern, the whole boat.
David: Yeah. [laughs] The whole boat.
Seth: [laughs] The whole boat.
David: Yeah. Uh, heav- from Heaven to Earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it's, it's all of creation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, like, the, that's what he uses. There's a time to be born and die. Plant and uproot is like you sow your seed, and then you harvest it, right? Uh-
Seth: So is he talking about, like, whole categories of things?
David: Yes.
Seth: So it's like a whole life.
David: That's right.
Seth: A whole s- calendar year.
David: All of food. Yeah, or all of, all of food.
Seth: All of food.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A time to kill and a time to heal, a time for, uh, medicine?
David: Tearing down and-
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, yeah, like we get sick, and we get better. Sometimes we inflict sickness on others. You know, like, uh-
Seth: Right
David: ... I, I think that's a lot of that. Uh, yeah, tearing down and building is all about, like, um, razing cities in war, but also we, sometimes we build cities. It's weird. Like, we go and tear cities down-
Seth: Mm-hmm, yeah
David: ... and then we build them up. So it's all about, like, civilization and politics. And so he's, he's taking-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these big categories, and he's saying that, that, that there's a time, there's a season for all of them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And what he means by that is that there is, above the sun, God has an intended purpose for every single action that happens in every single category that we experience on Earth.
Seth: He has made everything beautiful-
David: God is doing something
Seth: ... in its time.
David: Yes.
Seth: So-
David: God has made everything beautiful in its time.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Not only is it good, I just think it's amazing. He didn't just make it good. He made it beautiful.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and he talks about war and, and, like, and killing, and, like, there is a way g- like, Qohelet is saying that thing-
Seth: Weeping and mourning.
David: Yeah, weeping and mourning. He's saying there's a way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to look at this, that if you could look at this through God's eyes and the intent and purpose that he has for everything that happens under the sun, you would actually go, "Oh, that, that's, that thing I thought that was terrible is actually beautiful."
Seth: Hmm.
David: A- and so that's, that's what the merisms are doing there. They're, they're taking the whole of life, um-
Seth: The whole of life and saying the whole of life-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is not in God's blind spot.
David: It is-
Seth: There's no part of the life that you experience, as much as it seems like smoke-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... seems like grabbing after wind, none of it actually is. There is a beautiful timing placed by God above the sun-
David: That's right
Seth: ... for everything that happens under the sun.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, and it-
David: But, yep.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But-
David: But the, but, but it's still smoke, right?
Seth: Okay.
David: Because-Yes, everything is beautiful in its own timing, but he says we can't know what that timing is.
Seth: Mm.
David: We are frustrated.
Seth: He-
David: We don't know-
Seth: He's put eternity into man's heart.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Yet so, so, so in such a way [laughs] that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
David: That's right. We know that every th- that, like, or you, well, you can hypothetically know that God is doing something good and beautiful, but you can't see how that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... bad thing that happened in your life is actually good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, and that is hevel.
Seth: Or how it will eventually turn to-
David: That's right
Seth: ... a benefit for you.
David: Yep.
Seth: There's a whole section in, later on, on in the Book of Ecclesiastes that talks about you can't know the future.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, the, it's an, un- you're unable to know what comes next, and so this is kinda, it's like you're unable to interpret what's happening right now.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so there's, there, that's one aspect of it, is that, um, that God is doing something and you can't understand it, and that's frustrating. Like, that is a frustrating way to live life, to know that there is a master plan-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but not knowing what that master plan is.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, the other side of that hevel is that you can never sync up with it.
Seth: Mm.
David: And that you're trying to find purpose in life, you're trying to do the right thing, you're trying to live wisely, but you're always out of season. You're always out of time. You were supposed to, like, God was doing B at a given moment, and you were s- and you're doing A.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you're just a little off.
Seth: Right.
David: And you don't quite sync up, and so life doesn't quite go like it's supposed to because, like, I think what he's doing is he's kinda playing with proverbs here, and he's like, "You wanna know why when y- like, a proverb says input A and output will be B, right?"
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "If you do A, B will happen." He's like, "Ah, yeah-
Seth: If you speak a wise word in the right season-
David: Mm-hmm. Right
Seth: ... outcome positive will happen."
David: Right.
Seth: But what he's saying is, "No, you speak the right word, and the outcome doesn't happen 'cause you said it the wrong time." [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yep. Exactly.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Yeah. Yeah, there was just-
Seth: And it-
David: ... this wrong season to it.
Seth: So-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in verse 12, he gives his solution to a life lived out of time or out of step-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... with proper season, and he says, "I perceived that there's nothing better for them than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live. Also, that everyone should eat and drink and take pleasure in all of his work or his toil. This is God's gift to man."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So it's the same advice we've heard already, but in response to the hevel of time-
David: Right
Seth: ... the, the, the frustration of being out of season with the way the Lord has designed the world to work.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um-
David: And then, and so I think there's more clarity that's, that is added in verses 14 and 15 to this conversation.
Seth: Okay.
David: So he says, "I know that everything God does will endure forever. Nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear Him." And so he's saying that, um, God, from the beginning of time, and he'll talk about this again later in the book, that God from the beginning of time had purposes for every single thing that would happen on the earth, and we can't add to those purposes, and we can't take away from those purposes, and that can be frustrating. Like, i- it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it can almost feel like, um, some kind of divine, mechanistic, robotic universe that we have no control over. You know, we want to be free to make the world for ourselves, you know, especially us in the West. We wanna be frontiersmen, you know, that go out and create our own future. And he's saying, "Oh, you actually can't do that. You can't add to or take away from what God has been doing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... from the beginning." And, uh, and so, and, and he says, "But He does that not to frustrate you or stifle you or make you unhappy. He does it so that you will fear Him-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that you will relent and yield and name God as God and not-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you. You're trying to create the world for yourself, but God has set up the seasons."
Seth: So one, our normal response to, uh, a life that seems like a jumble of office, it's a life-
David: Yep
Seth: ... full of doing the right thing at the wrong time-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or being in the right place at the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time. [laughs]
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, a life full [laughs] of that.
David: Yes.
Seth: The r- response that should create in people who live on the Earth is a f- the fear-
David: The fear of God
Seth: ... of God who is eternal.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The fear of God who is eternal. And so assuming then, in that phrase eternal, is the right relationship to time. Not so much eternal life at this moment, but, like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we should fear the God who has a perfect relationship to time.
David: Yes.
Seth: And who can give us a right relationship to time as well.
David: That is, that is so well said, I think. I think that is a really good way to understand his use of the word eternity here, that he's placed eternity, meaning the proper relationship to time-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which is God's relationship to time, right? He has placed that-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... in our hearts, and yet he's not given us the ability to understand it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's like we know that there is, um, a purpose and a, an end and meaning to everything in this world that happens, but we can't put our finger on it.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Have you, uh-
David: And so... Yeah, anyway.
Seth: Yeah. Have you read, so, um, A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken?
David: Yes. Yeah, about this guy. He was like, he's like this, uh, he's like this waxing eloquent poet who listens to vinyl records and quotes Wagner and-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... spends his time at Oxford and ends up becoming friends with C.S. Lewis.
Seth: Yeah, like, they're pen pals. They write letters to each other.
David: Yeah, they become pen pals, yeah.
Seth: And eventually he-
David: He was, like, an agnostic at the beginning.
Seth: He was.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he would describe himself as a hedonist.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he said that he spent his life searching for, and I think he called them eternal moments.
David: Eternal moments, yeah.
Seth: Moments that felt like eternity. Uh, and he describes this one scene with he and his girlfriend, or maybe it was his wife.
David: I think, I, I don't know if they were married at the time. They got married.
Seth: They're on a sailboat-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in, off some tropical beach.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, and, like, they, they're in the sailboat, and they're having sex, and they jump into the water, and they're naked, and they're ju- and they're bathing in starlight. Like, the stars are perfectly reflected in the water, and they just sit there, and he said, I [laughs] think he says something like, um-We must have spent hours, but it felt like minutes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And like, and he said, "At that moment, I started searching for that feeling over and over and over again." Like, that was the moment. I was searching for eternal moments, moments that seem to contain within them all of eternity.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what C.S. Lewis pointed out, and what his own life attested to, was like he could never get them when he thought he was, and as soon as he was aware that he was about to grab one, it would escape him, and he could never contain that moment where hours pass, but only mi- it feels like minutes.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, they just never came. Like, he was experiencing what Qohelet said, like, "I had all those great things-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but I could never catch that moment in a bottle."
David: That's right.
Seth: Um, I could never catch... It was like striving after wind.
David: Right.
Seth: It always seemed like, be it-
David: It- another way to think about it, not, not talking about it using like time, like linear time, is like I, I feel this. I love food. You and I both have that in common.
Seth: We do love food.
David: Like, we, we both are the cooks in our homes.
Seth: On the ba- Yep.
David: We love, we, we love going to great restaurants in cities-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, like, that's our thing, and I-
Seth: Our one thing. [laughs]
David: It's our one thing. No, but we do love, love, love food, and, um, I, I think about this whenever I have, like, a really great meal, and you get full, and then it's over. You know?
Seth: Mm.
David: And it's like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... I was like, "I, I wish I could eat more of these tacos."
Seth: Right. Yeah, yeah.
David: But I'm just full. I have no more capacity to enjoy them, and in fact, another taco sounds disgusting to me.
Seth: I always think about it mo- as moments that where food makes me laugh, it's so good.
David: Oh, yeah. I've, I've had those.
Seth: Have you had those?
David: Oh, I've definitely had those.
Seth: It's like where you eat something and be like, "Oh, my gosh." [laughs]
David: This is stupid, how good this is.
Seth: "This is amazing."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you're like, the only response to the delicious of the food is to, like, laugh.
David: Yep.
Seth: And no matter how much I try, I've never been able to laugh at my own food at home.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And like, you know what I mean? Like, I can't recreate that moment, and then when I go to restaurants, like, expecting it to blow my mind-
David: It's like, it's like, "Meh"
Seth: ... expecting to laugh, it never happens.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I'm always taken off guard by it.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um-
David: But it is, it's just... Uh, there, there's something about that, you know, and that's like a very pedestrian-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... kind of example.
Seth: But-
David: You know, there's ob- there's obviously much bigger ones, but, like, the idea here is that there is a way to live in right relationship with time and with the, the, the warp and woof of the world, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: There, there's a way to do that, but we can't, because we're always-
Seth: C.S. Lewis-
David: ... out of step with what God's doing
Seth: ... in his response to Sheldon Vanauken says-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... like, that, that moment where you experienced hours passing in mere moments is proof that you have a broken relationship with time.
David: Yes.
Seth: The fact that a- like, hours can go by in moments, or the opposite when you're doing something really, really boring.
David: Yeah, time drags.
Seth: You ever notice that when you're doing something really boring and just time just seems to drag? Have you ever s- s- caught yourself think, saying things like, "Well, I'm just running behind the time," or like, "We're trying-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to be on the right side of history," or, like, there's al- [laughs] or, uh, we can never-
David: Or like, "Man, time really flew by," or-
Seth: Time flew by or-
David: ... "Man, this is really dragging on."
Seth: Or I'm trying to catch up. He's like, maybe the fact that we can ne- we always run out of time, or we don't-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... have enough time, or time seems gets away from us, or that we experience hours as moments and moments as hours, shows us that our t- we are broken-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in our relationship to time.
David: Yes. Severely.
Seth: Severely broken.
David: Yeah. Yes.
Seth: And we need eternity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to fix it.
David: Yeah, and so l- I think what's amazing then is, is, uh, and, and what we're not trying to do here necessarily, we'll, we'll get there, but what we're not trying to do here is pit temporality versus eternality right now.
Seth: Mm. Right, right, right, right.
David: We'll get there. Uh, that's a solution that the New Testament brings. Right now, what we're trying to get y- you, our listeners-
Seth: We-
David: ... to, to understand is that there is... God has intention to everything that happens in the world, purpose, uh, in his sovereign plan for every single part of life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but we don't know what it is, and so we can't sync up with it.
Seth: Yes. Right. We, what we, eternity equals a right relationship with time.
David: Right.
Seth: If we're always running out of time, we're looking for those eternal moments, but not getting them, or we're trying to laugh at our food, but it's not happening-
David: Yep
Seth: ... what you need is a proper relationship to food. You need a pro... And what, the, what Ecclesiastes is talking about, a proper relationship with time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the proper relationship with time comes from fearing the Lord.
David: Right. Knowing that God has purposes for everything, and, but the frustrating thing is, the why, the why this is hevel, why this is smoke, is that Qohelet says we can't know it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we can't do anything to change it.
Seth: Yes.
David: And like, so we can't participate in it, because we, we don't know what it is, and I can't add to it, I can't take away from it, so I'm just, like, crushed under the wheel of God's sovereignty that's just spinning, it feels like. But what's, what the good news is is that when Jesus comes, he has the perfect relationship with the times and seasons of God's sovereignty.
Seth: Okay, hold on.
David: Right?
Seth: Hold on.
David: Yep.
Seth: So hold on. Before we jump, so, [laughs] man, that's a, it's a, such a profound way [laughs] to like, Jesus is the perfect time traveler. He's the perfect one who, like, experiences time.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So like, the pr- like, if o- if the, our problem is this broken relationship to time, and our perception of God's relationship with time is also broken. Like, when we look up and look at God's sovereignty, we just experience it wrongly. Is that what you j- just kinda said?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, we, like, we don't perceive it rightly. We see it as capricious, we see it as fatalistic. We don't see it properly.
David: Yeah, or we, we just have no clue what it is. It's just obscured.
Seth: And so what Qohelet says is the good news is to fear God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and to fear God's relationship with time, fear his eternity, and when we fear his eternity, our pleasures are put in the right place. That's what he says, to, to-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... do good as long as you live, eat, drink, and take pleasure in your toil, because when you have a fear God in his right relationship with time, it re-centersThe way that you experience time on the earth. You're less crushed when you don't get that eternal moment. You're less, uh, desirous and lustful for the more of them. Like, that's what... That's the, his version of, like, the good news, right?
David: Uh-
Seth: It's like if you fear God-
David: Yeah, I, I... But it's a concession
Seth: ... you get-
David: Right? It's a concession
Seth: ... it's a concession? What do you mean?
David: Yeah, it's not good news yet. It's just a concession.
Seth: Well, he's saying it's the wise life. The wise life is to-
David: I, I-
Seth: ... fear God, which is the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the pers- the beginning of wisdom and knowledge, Proverbs 1:1.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, fear God.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he's... And if you do that, your relationship with time will begin to be mended, right?
David: No. I mean, he doesn't say that. [laughs] I mean, he just, he, he... I mean, he, he doesn't say if then. I don't think those are connected as an if then. If you fear God, then your relationship with time will be mended. I also think we're importing the temporality versus eternality thing here, which is not what's happening.
Seth: I'm not trying to. I think-
David: Okay
Seth: ... I, what I'm-
David: I'm just... Yeah, what I'm saying is I, I think first off, the concession comes in the middle of this explanation of the poem, and he says there's nothing better. And what he's... W- this, his nothing better is not this is the best thing that there-
Seth: Mm
David: ... could possibly be. Like a, like a, um, the best of the best. There's nothing better than a dip-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the ocean. You know, he's, he's not saying that. He's saying, "Well, I mean, literally there's just nothing better." It's a concession language.
Seth: And this goes to the heart of your and my disagreement over the Book of Ecclesiastes-
David: Yes
Seth: ... I think. But-
David: Yes
Seth: ... continue with what you're saying-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then I'll just add my spin on it and we'll move on.
David: Right. So what I'm saying is, and I'm just trying to use time a little bit differently than you right now-
Seth: Okay
David: ... i- is that what he, what he's saying is that I can't quite understand what God is up to in this exact moment. I, a- and I feel like I keep missing it.
Seth: Mm.
David: I keep trying to do A and I was supposed to do B. Dang it. And so since I can't quite sync up with what God is doing in any given moment, and I always end up not having the right amount of joy and satisfaction in it, here's what I can do. There's n- there's nothing better than this. Here's what I can do. I, uh, wine tastes good at any, you know, uh, on any day, [laughs] you know? Like, I enjoy the company of my wife every day. I can-
Seth: Right
David: ... enjoy a good meal, you know, even if it's not ultimately satisfying. And so he's saying, like, you know, I, I had, I, I... The best I can do is not try to-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like solve the world's problems and, and, and fill this eternal hole in my heart. Uh, the least I can do is just enjoy something for what it is-
Seth: Right
David: ... even if it's not the ultimate s- source of enjoyment. So it's a concession-
Seth: Yes. It's a concession
David: ... but I would not call that good news.
Seth: So here's what, here's the d-
David: [laughs]
Seth: So, so any podcast listener cluing into the tension between m- me and David in this moment-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... this is, like, actually the heart of our disagreement.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like we say, we, like, we're both in the middle, but one tends positively and one tends neg- negatively.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so a lot of scholarship will talk about this phrase, what does it mean nothing better to do under the sun? David tend, tends to see that as a concession, and I tend to see that as, like, gospel in seed form, and not untethered to the verse after it. So I'm just gonna reread it again. Uh, "So I perceive that there's nothing better for them to do than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live. Also, that everyone should eat and drink, and take pleasure in his... all to his toil. This is God's gift to man."
David: Yes.
Seth: "And I perceive that whatever God does endures forever. Nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken away from it. God has done it so that people will fear him." So I think there is a connection between eating, and drinking, and doing good, and enjoying it as a gift from God, and fearing him.
David: Yes.
Seth: I do not believe that you can enjoy the food that we eat, the eternal moments that we do seem to g- able to catch in a bottle for a brief moment, without fearing the Lord.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so when we fear the Lord, we are freed to ex- laugh at our food and never need to do it again. We're freed to have an eternal moment on a boat and not feel like we have to make our life's mission to do it, and then it feels like it always comes up short. If we want a proper relationship with time and the pleasures of this world, it comes first by fearing God, and then our re- our relationship with time will begin to be mended. There's n- nothing better to do, you're right, is, like, a concession until we get to eternity.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But I think that begins when we fear the Lord, and it starts on this earth. Not fully, but in part. And that kinda gets to the heart of our, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... tone differences.
David: And I'm, and we're not gonna, and w- we made this promise early on in our-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Ecclesiastes. We're not gonna solve that tension. I, I, uh, yeah, I, I think it's a concession, and it's like, well, there's nothing better to do. He thinks it's pretty good news. And we're gonna leave it there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because honestly, that's what Ecclesiastes feels like, and it should-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... feel like that. Because you're like, "I want an answer. I wanna grab onto what Ecclesiastes is, is all about," and it's smoke. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, and so, okay.
Seth: Turn off the podcast. [laughs]
David: Turn off the podcast. No. Okay, so but we, we have to talk about Jesus' proper relationship with time.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because this-
Seth: So regardless of how you read this phrase, the good news here is we have a broken relationship with time-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and we need someone to fix our broken relationship with time.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that person is Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: How?
David: So Jesus, Jesus comes to earth, the, the, [laughs] the Bible says at the fullness of time.At the fullness of time
Seth: In his due season
David: In, yeah, in this new season, he, he co- in, in, in the exact right season, Jesus comes. And so, like, R- Romans 3 says that he had left former sins unpunished, and that he came at the right exact moment. Um, Acts 2 in, in, in Peter's first gospel sermon talks about how God had been working through history up until this exact moment whenever he had predestined Jesus to die. Like, there was this fullness of time that has taken place, and Jesus himself mentioned it over and over and over again throughout his earthly ministry. Uh, people would talk about, um... You know, he'd be, like, sitting at a wedding in Cana, and, um, you know, like, uh, Mary would be telling him that, that, that the, the wedding's run out of wine, and he's just sitting there thinking about the time that he will-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... have to shed his own blood to provide eternal wine for his eternal bride.
Seth: Mm.
David: And, you know, Mary comes in and says, "Hey, we ran out of wine. Can you provide wine?" He, his response-
Seth: Oof
David: ... is, "My time has not yet come."
Seth: [laughs]
David: And it's like, wait, what does that mean? It means that he's thinking about the time of his death. Like, and so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "My hour has not yet come. My time has not yet come." But then when he gets to Jerusalem, the hour is here.
Seth: My hour.
David: The time has come.
Seth: The hour is here. Mm.
David: And, like, he, Jesus, knew the times and seasons of God. He knew exactly what God was doing in every single given moment. It's why in John he can say that he only ever did what he saw the Father doing. So, like, he could see-
Seth: Mm. Okay
David: ... the intention and purpose of God. He could see the intention and purpose of God, see exactly what he wanted to happen in every single moment, and sync up with it, and he could do what God wanted to be done in that moment.
Seth: Mm.
David: God had a purpose, and Jesus was able to know the mind of God, know that purpose, and be the agent of it. And so n- He lived the wise, joyful, satisfied life because he did what God was doing in every-
Seth: In-
David: ... single hour, in every single moment
Seth: ... in its right time.
David: In its right time.
Seth: And you keep s- mentioning, "in that hour," "in the hour." All throughout the Book of John, the hour-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is a reference to Jesus's death. And I think about that, like, Go- the God of eternity-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who, like, where, who endures forever, and nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken in front of it, like, that God has an hour.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A-
David: An hour to die
Seth: ... and an hour to die in which he grants us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the r- the ability, by the power of his Holy Spirit, to live in right relationship with time.
David: Yes.
Seth: To, like-
David: So that's, yeah, that's the amazing thing. Like, 1 Corinthians talks about, like, who, who can know the mind of God? You know, like, Hi- like, his counsels are unsearchable, you know? Like, you can never understand what God is doing. But it says that because the Holy Spirit goes and searches the innermost parts of God and then comes and dwells with us, it says we have the mind of Christ.
Seth: Mm.
David: So that same mind that was able to know what the Father wanted and do what the Father did, right, and sync up with God's purposes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and seasons and times now lives within us. And so whenever the Bible talks about walking by the Spirit and walking in step with the Spirit, it means that when God wants us to do A at this hour, we're able to know that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and do that. We become synced up-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with God's purposes for this world.
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: That's amazing.
Seth: That's amazing.
David: Yeah. Okay, so then what's... So that, that's, like, the good news for, like, right now-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is we're able-
Seth: And just to-
David: ... to break through, we're able to break through, like, what Qohelet was unable to break through. He couldn't know what God was up to, but the Holy Spirit's starting to give us these little peeks into what God is up to.
Seth: Yes, and it frees us to do the advice that he gives us. There's nothing better to do than be joyful and to do good as long as they live. It frees us to do good, to enjoy our drink, and take pleasure in our work while we're on the earth of Hevel. Like, because we have the mind of God, because we've been given it by the one who had a perfect relationship with time, we can begin to have right relationship with, to time in our work, in our pleasure, in our food.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Does that make sense, right? Like-
David: It does. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think, I think I would, just to state the other side of it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but without correcting you, 'cause I think you're absolutely right, I think to state the other side of it is what was a concession for Qohelet to, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... well, I don't know what God is up to. I don't know how to join in with it, so I guess I'll just enjoy my food, uh, 'cause at least that's a good gift from God. That's the least I can do right now, 'cause I just don't know what God's up to. The good news that we see all throughout the New Testament, especially if you read, like, Acts, you see that, like, the disciples knew what God was doing, and they were compelled by the Spirit to go to-
Seth: Mm
David: ... this place or that place.
Seth: Mm.
David: And they could get involved in the mission of God. And so now we do have something better than to just eat and drink. We can do the work of God in this world.
Seth: Mm.
David: We can actually sync up with his purposes and go and share this good news with people. And, like, we can, we can be a part of God's mission in this world. I think it's both sides of Eden that we're talking about here, Seth.
Seth: Yes. That's, yes.
David: One side, one side is enjoying the garden. We are free to enjoy the garden now, and, like, we can do that because we know that any meal I eat, I'm actually feasting on s- I'm trying to feast on something better, which is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Christ, and I'm trying to... I know that this is just a picture and a symbol of something that's far better, which is life with God. But Eden was not only an internal enclave that was meant to stay where it was, right? It was meant to go out.
Seth: Expand, yeah.
David: It was meant to expand. And so now we know that, and we can sync up with the Spirit of God and go do that work with him.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so we can actually know the seasons and know the times-
Seth: And we can-
David: ... and we can s- do them
Seth: ... spread the good news-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of a right relationship with time.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the hope of an eternal time. So we can't-
David: So, yes. So before you jump there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... let's let Jesus t- tee it up.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because Jesus says, "So who knows the times and the seasons," right? What, when will that hour come when Jesus returns?I don't know. Only the Father knows.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Even Jesus himself on Earth-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... kind of repeated Qohelet here. He was like, "Who knows the day and the hour? I don't know. Only the Father knows." He's repe- he's talking about Ecclesiastes-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... 3 here. And now, of course, now he knows, you know?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: But, like, it's amazing that there is a time designated by the Father that Jesus will return, and no one knows when it is. We still live inside of that smoke and hevel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because we w- we, like, we just don't know when it's gonna be. And so how do we live in right relationship with that time, that hour of Jesus' return?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jesus gives us the answer, right? He says, "Live as if it's today. Act as if-"
Seth: Mm
David: ... as if the master is coming back. Act as as, as if it would be this very moment that I would return, and be about your master's business when I return."
Seth: Yes.
David: So how do you live in right relationship with the imminent return of Jesus that we don't know when it's gonna be? Is it gonna be today or 10,000 years from now? The, the only way to live in right relationship with it is to fear God.
Seth: Is to fear God.
David: Which, right, and to act like it's today.
Seth: And to joyfully do good.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: And to eat and drink and take pleasure. Like, it's two sides of Eden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So it's like this could be seen as Eden interrupted, nothing better to do than this. Or it's how Eden will actually feel.
David: Yes.
Seth: We will eat food, and we will drink wine, and we will do our work, and it will be awesome.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It will feel like a succession of nothing but eternal moments, and that's the way C.S. Lewis ends up talking about eternity-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to Sheldon Vanauken. He said, "That moment that you had on the boat with your wife, that's what all of eternity will feel like." You're gonna sit and watch a sunset with a friend, and you're gonna realize what happened in 30 minutes actually was 10,000 years. You have a conversation over good coffee in the morning, and you're gonna realize 45 hours have passed. Like, and that idea of, like, having m- like, hours and hours pass by in moments is actually the perfect picture of heaven. I was like, "What?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs] That blows my mind, 'cause that's what I want. Like, I want time to pass more quickly than it actually does-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and because I'm enjoying it so much.
David: Right.
Seth: And so what C.S. Lewis says is the hope of heaven is that our relationship with time will be so fixed that it will feel like as if time is not passing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm like, [laughs] that's just, it feels-
David: Yeah. It's so good
Seth: ... and that's kind of imag- imaginatory and what, like, imagine, like, this-
David: Well, yeah, we just can't
Seth: ... is the imagination.
David: Like, we have such a broken relationship with time that we, that we even paint eternity incorrectly. People are like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "So eternity is just like life ov- it's, it's Groundhog Day?"
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: "We just keep doing the same thing over and over again forever?" No, no, no, no, no. It's perfect moments that you never wanna end, never-ending.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's a succession of them, and-
Seth: And if you're in, like, in that moment-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... where you're experiencing something amazing, when you're eating food that makes you laugh, when you're, like, it just seems like moments have passed, as soon as you examine that moment, as soon as you try to tear apart the food-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and remake it at home, as soon as you try to recreate it, you never get it back.
David: Right.
Seth: But in heaven, you always will.
David: Yeah, no.
Seth: And you can examine that moment, and your pleasure of that moment will increase-
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: ... rather than decrease. [laughs]
David: Uh, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, so something else that's really, uh, I wanna, I wanna focus in on here is not just, like, the, the linearness or the circularity or the concept of eternity from a time standpoint, but from Qohelet's use of the word time and season-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is God has purposes for the world, and we don't know what they are, and so we can't sync up with them. But the good news of eternity is that God will have purposes in the new heavens and the new Earth. He will be doing things, right? And he will have perfect purposes in the world, and we will reign with him, we're told. We will be his agents in the new heavens and the new Earth, and what we do every single given moment will be exactly what the Father wants. Like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... our eternity and God's eternity will be synced up, not only in terms of, like, how we experience time, but the purpose for our life. We will live of the, the exact purpose for our life in every decision that we make and every thought that we think and every meal that we eat. We'll do the right thing at the right time. And, like, 'cause that's what Ec- Ecclesiastes is hoping for, is like-
Seth: Right
David: ... how do I find satisfaction and purpose and profit in this life? He's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "You won't." Like, the, ultimately, the only time that you'll be able to do that is when we're, whenever we are living in eternity with the Father-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we're able to do in this new heavens and new Earth exactly what he wants us to do at every moment. We'll be synced up with his purposes, and we will-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... know his mind, and then w- we, we will be the agents that carry out the bent of his will.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it will be satisfying.
Seth: We won't just experience eternal life. We won't just experience-
David: Yes, right
Seth: ... perfect eternity. We will-
David: Be agents of it
Seth: ... be [laughs] so crazy. Like, we will, like, yes, we will be obedient and perfectly in tune with the one who creates and designs and orchestrates and plans time. And that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... will change not just our experience of time itself, but our actual lives that we live when eternity comes. Like-
David: Yes. Yes
Seth: ... it's that.
David: And so, yeah, and so, like, I mean, there's just so many, there's so many things here-
Seth: There's-
David: ... that I just wanna, like, name.
Seth: I wanna keep going.
David: So, like, uh, [laughs] well, we, like, like, so one is just, like, how good is this news that God is, that, like, 'cause w- when- whenever we think about God being in control, 'cause we think, you know, you read verse, like, 14, "I know that everything God does will endure forever. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken from it." It's like people read that, and it's like a mechanistic view of God's sovereignty, that, like, God just set, programmed the world from beginning to end, and there's nothing you can do to add to it or take away from it. You know, it's fatalistic. It's, it's all-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... it's all ordained. And it's like, uh, but look at, like, that's, one, that's an oversimplification and the wrong way to, to think about it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But look at what he built.God built a world and told a story and worked within history to take his eternal self and put it on a temporal cross to die for the sins of people trapped in time. I'm just like, if that's the good, if that's like how good God is that he could program a world to die in-
Seth: Mm
David: ... so that he can bring us out of temporality into his eternality, like imagine the eternity he's built for us. If this is the story he's telling o- over a, a couple 10,000 years or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, a billion years, however you wanna think about it, in time. If this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the story he's telling in time, imagine the story, the narrative, and the goodness of himself he can reveal to us when time is limitless. Like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it's just amazing to think about how good that news is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know?
Seth: Think about just the death of Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the death of God himself, and just reread the same line. "I perceive that whatever God does endures forever."
David: Mm.
Seth: Nothing can be added to the cross of Christ.
David: That's good.
Seth: Nothing can be taken away from it. God has done it so that we will fear him.
David: Mm. That's so good. There's nothing we can do to add to it or take away from it. Like, I, yeah, it's, oh, it's so good. Well, um, it's, uh, we, we've come to the end of this episode.
Seth: We have to end that, yeah.
David: Time.
Seth: We, [laughs] we were gonna do-
David: Time
Seth: ... like 14 different things in this episode and get to chapter six, but apparently not.
David: Nope. It's not gonna happen.
Seth: Uh, the only other thing I'm disappointed that we didn't talk about was how, like, so many, um, cartoons, movies, pop culture references, myths, legends talk about i- the fountain of youth.
David: Oh, yeah, it's so interesting.
Seth: Immortality.
David: Yep.
Seth: And how so many people are searching after this one thing. Um, but I mean, it's all, um, a version on a theme. Like, it's the same thing. Like, the Pirates of the Caribbean go out and they l- they gain eternal life, only to find out it doesn't deliver what it promises them. They become skeletons and can't enjoy the wine they wanted to have. They can't enjoy the plunder that they thought they would love.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like it doesn't satisfy, and the fountain of y- like the search for immortality, even the Harry Potter series is, like, seen as a wicked thing.
David: Yep.
Seth: Do, to do it the wrong way.
David: Yeah, you split yourself seven times and put your soul in horcruxes-
Seth: Yes, like, like
David: ... so you can live forever.
Seth: Like, the search for-
David: Or Sauron binding himself to the fate of the ring.
Seth: It's, yeah, it's exactly the, it's the point. Like, the search for immortality under the sun-
David: Is evil
Seth: ... splits you, is evil.
David: It splits you. Yeah, I mean, I think of, I, my wife and I were in Puerto Rico in February, and, um, we went to, uh, the cathedral there, and they have the burial, I think, at least a statue of Ponce de Leon, who was-
Seth: Oh
David: ... the man who went in search for the fountain of youth, and it's like, I, the irony just struck me that in a way he's immortalized here in this statue-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... but always in search of something he didn't find.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: It's like his, he, he's immortalized for his failure to find that which would have-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like fixed the thing that is now making him immortalized, which is death. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's just, it's so weird.
Seth: That's, and he is immortal because his statue still reigns, but he's-
David: Right
Seth: ... immortal.
David: But it's immortalized for his failure to find-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because he died.
Seth: [laughs] That's, yeah.
David: So yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We long for a, a right relationship with time, and like a huge-
Seth: And u- under the sun, it doesn't exist
David: ... Yep, it's right, and just a huge good news, like, is, like, John 3:16, right? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Seth: Mm.
David: And God has put that in the heart of men. We long for that, and yet we're frustrated that we can't find it. But the good news is that God gave His Son Jesus and died on a cross at the right hour so that we could finally have the desire of our heart, which is eternal life with the eternally good God, who plans everything perfectly in its season.
Seth: Nothing can be added to the cross of Jesus, and nothing can be taken away from it.
David: Amen to that. That's so good. Well, guys, thank you for listening. Um, it's been fun to, uh, ironically spend too much time-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... on this passage.
Seth: Or too little time. [laughs]
David: Or too little time. We probably didn't spend enough time. We'll never know.
Seth: [laughs]
David: No, uh, no, it's really good. So we'll, we'll keep going with Ecclesiastes next week, but until then, we just hope you guys have a great week, and we'll see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
