Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We are glad to be with you. We hope you're glad to be with us. Seth, how you doing?
Seth: I'm doing, I'm doing well. I'm hoping people are glad to be with us as well. [laughs]
David: You don't-
Seth: [laughs]
David: You think most people are just, like, downloading and, and, and streaming-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... this podcast begrudgingly?
Seth: Well, lot, like, lots of regret in their heads-
David: They're just loathsomely-
Seth: ... while they listen to us again
David: ... hitting play. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] I could be doing so many other things with my life, and here I am-
David: Here I am
Seth: ... with this podcast again.
David: Listen to an introduction to Ecclesiastes, the most inspiring book of the Bible. So, uh, cat's out of the bag with the title that you clicked on, you already know.
Seth: Or maybe-
David: We're talking about Ecclesiastes
Seth: ... they just streamed it and didn't even look at it-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and it auto-played. We're-
David: Auto-played. Surprise. [laughs]
Seth: Surprise. [laughs]
David: Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Ecclesiastes. [laughs]
David: They're like, "Oh, no. How do I unlock my phone and get out of here?" No. Um, so yeah, we're gonna be talking about our first wisdom book, um, that we've, we- we've talked about a- aside from a few psalms. Um-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and that's very exciting.
Seth: Wisdom. Yeah. Uh, maybe people don't know that Ecclesiastes is part of the, the wisdom tradition within scripture.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So we have the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... book of Proverbs.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The br- um, this book, Ecclesiastes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The Book of Job.
David: Right.
Seth: And then Lamentations. Is Lamentations considered wisdom literature as well?
David: I don't know.
Seth: Uh-
David: Wait, w- in which ordering? In the Tanakh? Like, in the original Hebrew-
Seth: Uh
David: ... ordering?
Seth: Or even just, like, by content. I was... Not so much order.
David: Oh.
Seth: But, um, regardless, the big three are Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, and the Book of Job.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the big three piece of wisdom literature. So-
David: Is the s- are the Psalms not in that?
Seth: There are some Psalms that are considered wisdom literature.
David: Wisdom Psalms. Yeah.
Seth: And even we've talked about how Genesis 1 is in some ways a wisdom text, because it talks about the good and the bad life, uh, the good and the blessed life, or the blessed and the evil life, or foolish life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But really, these three books stand out above all others as the wisdom text of scripture.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So if we were, if I was gonna give you, flat-footed, what is wisdom, and what is wisdom literature, how would you start to answer that question?
David: Oh, gosh. I think-
Seth: Well, maybe, maybe not wisdom literature. What is wisdom? So we have-
David: What is- oh
Seth: ... wisdom literature-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... but, like, what is wisdom?
David: Okay, okay, okay.
Seth: What is wisdom?
David: Wisdom... Okay, [laughs] man. Okay. So this is, this is off the cuff. Uh, wisdom is God's... Uh, okay, hold on, hold on. Wisdom is God's knowledge of right and wrong played out in real life.
Seth: Okay.
David: Eh?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Eh?
Seth: Yeah, I like that.
David: I'm trying to use, like, some biblical categories, like, with the-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... knowledge of right, of good and evil, like at the tree-
Seth: Right
David: ... right, in Genesis 1. And wisdom in Genesis 1 would've been trusting God's word of what is right and wrong-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... over finding it for yourself.
Seth: Right.
David: And playing that out in real life by not going to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and grabbing it for yourself. So wisdom is God's revealed knowledge-
Seth: Yes
David: ... acted out in real life.
Seth: And I would even s-
David: So it's not just abstract knowledge, like of-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... I know this is good and this is bad, or this is smart and this is stupid. It's how do those categories-
Seth: Do you spell smart with an O of your voice? [laughs]
David: Smart.
Seth: I heard smort.
David: It's smort.
Seth: Smort.
David: It's, yeah, it's smort.
Seth: Yeah. Um-
David: Um, it's, it's those categories entered into real life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and encountering real scenarios. Yeah?
Seth: I think that's helpful. Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think it is. But it's, I think it's... So wisdom's used a lot of different ways within scripture.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: And so I think another, like, aspect to wisdom that the Bible names is even just observing the world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and acting in accordance with its properties. So, like, the, the, the, um, the example I have in my mind is, like, the tailors who made the priests' clothes-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the metalworkers who carved the decorations for the tabernacle-
David: They did it with wisdom
Seth: ... in Exodus. They did it with wisdom.
David: Yeah, you're right.
Seth: Yeah. So like-
David: What does that mean? [laughs]
Seth: So what I think... Uh, so, like, they talk about, uh, Oholiab and Bezalel being filled with the Holy Spirit.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: So it could mean just being filled with the Holy Spirit. But I actually think it means something, like, more fundamental. They were able to see wood-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for what it was, and they were able to manipulate it into something beautiful.
David: Is that like-
Seth: Like, if you don't under-
David: I- is, is that like when you hear a sculptor saying, like, when they look at a marble slab, they can see the statue inside of it, and then they're just getting rid of everything that's not the statue? Is that what [laughs] you're saying?
Seth: I think so.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: Like, there's like, there's an... [laughs] Like, they, they understand how a material works-
David: Okay, yep
Seth: ... so they know how to manipulate it to build and use it for some other end. Does that make sense?
David: And wouldn't you say... Well, manipula- and manipulate's a very pejorative term.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Is, you're not meaning it to be pejorative, are you?
Seth: No, just like, they can, like, form it. They can fashion it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They can use it.
David: Work with it. They can work with it.
Seth: Work with it.
David: I like that.
Seth: Um-
David: Work with it I think is helpful for j- for wisdom, 'cause I think what you're, the, the illustration you're getting at is that God has built a wise world, which we need to talk about him creating-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with wisdom. But, like, he's built a world, and there's wisdom within it, and if you work in a certain way using wisdom, you will get good things out of it. Like, good things will-
Seth: Yes
David: ... come out of this world that God's built if you kind of go with the grain of the universe.Yeah?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.
David: Great.
Seth: And I think that works with, like, um, nations. Like, a, a people, uh... In Deuteronomy 34, Moses is said to lead with wisdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So he's leading a nation with wisdom.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I think there it's like he knows how people work, and we just finished the Book of Deuteronomy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he knows they're going to go and sin again. And so knowing the proclivity b- of his people, he's leading them with an eye to their future problems and their-
David: Mm
Seth: ... current situation, and he's leading them well because he understands how Israel works, how his people work.
David: Yep.
Seth: So wisdom isn't simply... It is God's revealed wisdom, his revealed, uh, will or his, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... plan for a particular circum- circumstance, but it is also, I think, working with the way that God has designed people-
David: Right. Yeah
Seth: ... and the way that w- the world as it is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think that's like-
David: And I think that goes... And that's found- that's founded on not only observations for how we see the word wisdom as it appears in the Bible work out in different situations like you've named, with Eliab and Bezalel and Moses, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We also know that because the Bible tells us that God formed the world with wisdom, and wisdom-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is... Is this in Job? This is in Job, right?
Seth: What are you talking about?
David: Where he's like, uh, he, like, with wisdom, he created everything, and wisdom is this second chief creation of his, and, like, there's like-
Seth: That's, that's Proverbs. Proverbs 3.
David: Oh, Proverbs. Proverbs. Okay.
Seth: "By the wisdom, the Lord laid the Earth's foundations."
David: Yeah. That's it.
Seth: "By understanding, he set the heavens in place."
David: So good. So there's this principle that God has this character within him that is wisdom, and he used that character within him of wisdom to create everything. And so every part of the world, um, atoms and stars and atmosphere and gravity all have fingerprints of wise working on them.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: And not only that, but also, like, um, intangible categories, right? Like morality and our sense of justice and consciousness, right? And the mind and the id. Like, all these things also have these indelible imprints of-
Seth: Yes
David: ... God's wise creation upon them.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so when we live in a way with wisdom, we are acting in agreement with the way God built these things, and the promise of wisdom is that things tend to go well for you when you live within the grain of the universe.
Seth: Yes. I mean-
David: Okay
Seth: ... a really simple example is, like, gravity is an example of God's wisdom.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: The law of gravity, the constant law of gravity, is an example of God's wisdom. You can actually create energy by using the law of gravity in a mill and a river.
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: So you have this river pushing, like, the, the bottom of the mill-
David: Of the... Yep. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... up, and then gravity bringing the water back down, and that creates, um, a big millstone in the middle of-
David: Oh
Seth: ... I don't know why I went to a mill, but, like, you have these natural forces-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a river and gravity, that actually make your work easier.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You're able to produce more, uh, do more-
David: 'Cause you're, 'cause you're working with the wisdom of God that he's built into the universe.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay. Okay.
Seth: So one of the ways I th- like, uh, in the Proverbs devos that I wrote, I think, like, um, is it's the ability to understand how life or people or nations or objects or, uh, nature itself work, and then use that wisdom and understanding to respond appropriately, justly, or skillfully, and even morally.
David: Mm-hmm. And so, like-
Seth: So I think-
David: Like... Go ahead. Go ahead.
Seth: No, no, that's... So that's kind of like... That's, that's the broadest category of wisdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we can draw.
David: Right. So I'm thinking of like-
Seth: It's not one thing. It's multiple things
David: ... like a, like a concrete example i- from, like, Proverbs, like a proverbial view of wisdom is like, um, you know, b- Say you have a big decision coming up in your life. Proverbs says that it's wise to seek out many counselors, and it's-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and, like, it's wisdom to have lots of people speak into w- the decision you're making, and what will tend to happen is you'll tend to make a better choice, and probably the right choice, if you have more counselors speaking in to what you do. It would be foolish and unwise of you to just make flippant decisions without counsel- consulting anybody.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that, it, that's, like, that's in Proverbs, and that's a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a, an example of wisdom, that, like, God has made it so that we make better decisions whenever we consult other people, and we bring community to bear on personal decisions.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And there's even some really, like, fun, like, uh, fun, like, [laughs] funny ones. Uh, like, when the... Uh, this is Proverbs 14:4, "Where there are no oxen-"
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "... the manger is empty, but from the str- the strength of an ox, abundant harvest comes." So [laughs] the idea is, like, where there are no oxen-
David: It's like a riddle
Seth: ... It's like a riddle, but, like, the, it's wisdom. Where there are no oxen, the manger's clean. You don't have to clean up anything.
David: Oh, oh, oh.
Seth: But when you have-
David: So if you don't, so if you don't have any oxen, you don't have any chores.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay. Okay. I got it.
Seth: But when you add the strength of an ox and all the mess that comes with it, your harvest abounds.
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: So there's like-
David: So, so you, you have no chores, but you also have no food. [laughs]
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Okay. Okay.
Seth: So there's wisdom in making sure you have, like, you use the resources that you have to create a harvest for yourself, but there's also the wisdom of, like, that also comes with chores. [laughs] Yeah.
David: Yeah. Right. Interesting.
Seth: Uh-
David: Okay. Okay. That's starting-
Seth: So it's kind of all over the place.
David: That's starting to make sense.
Seth: What wisdom could be.
David: Wisdom's not one thing is what you were saying.
Seth: It's not one thing.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think this is wh- I think w- this is why when Solomon, in the Book of Proverbs, talks about, like, the heart of true wisdom, like, what is, like, what is the burning center of wisdom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he says, in Proverbs 1:7, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge."
David: Mm.
Seth: I think that's because, like, um, wisdom is both understanding and responding to the way the world works.
David: Right.
Seth: And you can't be truly wise without understanding and responding to the one who made the world and who designed-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... how it works. Like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... true wisdom has to take i- into account the creator and the wisdom that he used.
David: Right.
Seth: So-What is true, like, so what is wisdom generally, but what is true wisdom? What is biblical wisdom? It's not just acting with the way the world seems to act or within the laws of physics, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... without reference to God, but it's doing those things with reference to God, thinking of him constantly, fearing and choosing him above other alternatives.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What's that making you think?
David: Oh, my goodness. It's making me think that, like, o- at least that last thing you said makes me think that, like, what the world would call wisdom is unwise, because I think when we think about wisdom, we think about acting wisely, making good, informed decisions, maybe, maybe noble, full-of-character-and-integrity decisions, um, mor- moral decisions, ethical decisions, right? Like-
Seth: Yeah. That's part of it
David: ... that was, that was wise. But, but what you're saying is sometimes God's wisdom operates counterintuitively to man's wisdom, and we must go to him to see what true wisdom is because it might not seem like it's just the apparent case in the world in which we, we live and the water in which we swim. Like, there might be something-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... bigger happening that we need to consult a, um-
Seth: I think-
David: ... a higher power
Seth: ... you can say generally-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the world works, like the way, like, living in accordance with the way the world works is wisdom.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that'll get you pretty far.
David: Okay.
Seth: There are a lot of non-believers, a lo- not, a lot of people that are not Christians, that can use the material world, the laws of nature, to create amazing technologies.
David: Right.
Seth: They're using a category of biblical wisdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But that only gets you so far.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because as you said at the beginning, wisdom is not just working with the w- woof and warp of the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It is also God's revelation.
David: Right.
Seth: And so there are some things that don't make intuitive sense on the surface if you're just going according to some principles of the way the world seems to operate. Does that make sense?
David: Yes, it does make sense, and I mean, that is the on-ramp into Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Y- [laughs] yes, it is-
David: I mean, it is
Seth: ... the on-ramp into Ecclesiastes.
David: This was unplanned. This was unplanned.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But that is the on-ramp into Ecclesiastes. Um, a- and, like, why, why, I think people listening to this being like, "I logged on to this episode to get a beat on what Ecclesiastes is about, and you guys won't shut up about Proverbs." [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: But, but why did we spend so much time talking about Proverbs, and why does that set up a good category for how to understand what Ecclesiastes is trying to do?
Seth: So, like, what Proverbs is doing, it's trying to give you wisdom. Like, it's telling you wisdom. The heart of true wisdom is fear of the Lord. It's obeying his commandments. It's following hi- like, not just the design of the universe, but his will and his word as well. It's-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... one of the ways you can think about it, it's like Proverbs is the way the world should work.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's the way the world, like God, the, it's wa- the way the world, uh, it's the [laughs] way the world... What am I trying to say?
David: I don't know.
Seth: It's the-
David: The way the world works.
Seth: The Book of-
David: [laughs]
Seth: The Book of Proverbs explains the way the world as God has designed it to work.
David: Yes, right.
Seth: It describes the, the ideal pattern for life-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in, in our fallen world.
David: Yes.
Seth: Ecclesiastes kinda takes all those assumptions and says, "Okay, you've read the Book of Proverbs. You've seen what true wisdom really is."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "You've seen the way the world should work. Let me show you the way the world actually works."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's wisdom literature in the sense that it kind of correctly describes the way the world actually works-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like the way the world actually comes about. But it's different from Proverbs because it doesn't explain the wa- way the worl- world should work in the same way.
David: Right. So, so to dip back into some of our-
Seth: It kinds all the exceptions to the rules.
David: Right. So to di-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to dip back in some of our examples, um, we said that, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... if you have an ox, yeah, you have a bunch of chores, but at least you have a full belly, you know?
Seth: Yes. Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, the, uh, Ecclesiastes would come in and be like, "Uh, yeah, except for the guy who has a, you know, no chores, and he's sitting on a trust fund and hasn't lifted a finger in his whole life, and-
Seth: That's exactly right
David: ... he's a little twerp. What about that guy, Mr. Proverbs?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that's, and like Ecclesiastes-
Seth: Yes
David: ... would come along and, like, correct those things.
Seth: Proverbs says there's good, there's good things to be gained from hard work and cleaning out a manger. Ecclesiastes comes along and says, actually, most people, many people don't work at all and are still rich.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why is that so?
David: And those who work, and those who work the hardest have the least.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, that's what Ecclesiastes would come along and say, and you'd be like, "Ah, dang it."
Seth: Yes.
David: Ecclesiastes. [laughs]
Seth: So it's wisdom in the sense that it's correctly describing-
David: Describing the way the world works, yep
Seth: ... but not the way the world should work.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so that's kind of the, the big difference between, like, what Proverbs is and what Ecclesiastes is. But at the same time, they're both wisdom because they're both-
David: Mm
Seth: ... explaining the way the world works-
David: I see
Seth: ... just from two different perspectives. Does that make sense?
David: Oh, okay. Uh, uh, and when you used wisdom just then, you're using it as a genre category.
Seth: Yes.
David: Not as-
Seth: Yes
David: ... a, like, a descriptive theological noun. Like-
Seth: Y-
David: To say that, like-
Seth: Yes. Did I? [laughs]
David: I think, I think so. I think so 'cause you're saying that Ecclesiastes is wisdom, and I think-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what you mean by that, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think what you mean by that is it fits the biblical category for wisdom literature because it's describing the way the world works, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: But it's not the same kind of wisdom that is maybe, if you wanna call it capital W wisdom, that is the way God designed it to work.
Seth: Mm. Well, uh, potentially.
David: Okay.
Seth: Potentially. I, I think it could go both ways. I think you could say, like, there is a special type of wisdom in the Book of Proverbs that, um, communicates God's heart in a way that the Book of Ecclesiastes doesn't.
David: Yes, yep.
Seth: But, uh, I think Ecclesiastes is also wisdom in the lowercase W sense of the word, the fact that it accurately describes the world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... not because God designed it that way, but potentially because God cursed it that way.Does that makes it-
David: It does make sense. Yeah.
Seth: So, like, Ecclesiastes is showing us, like-
David: Oh
Seth: ... the world outside of the garden, like wisdom outside of the garden. And so we'll get to this in a moment, but there's all these hints that we should get back to the garden in the Book of Ecclesiastes.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: You should eat, and you should drink, and you should be merry. I think he's calling us away from the wisdom that would say that there's nothing in this life to be enjoyed. It's all pointless, and he's calling us back to the garden.
David: Okay. Okay. That's so good. Okay.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Because, uh, the last couple of weeks, uh, uh, uh, this, uh... I, I can't remember when this will air, actually, so I can't remember if our introduction on Proverbs will be out yet or not. But regardless, I've been working on the Proverbs introduction for Spoken Gospel and just reflecting on how much tree of life language is in Proverbs. Like, it's everywhere.
Seth: Yes.
David: And-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, the tree of life, the way to the tree of life is the Book of Proverbs, and it's like, "Be wise, and you will get back to the Garden of Eden." And so what you're saying is that Ecclesiastes and Proverbs have the same goal in mind-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is to get us back into the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Yes.
David: One is by saying, "Here's the way of life." The other is by saying, "Everything that you think is a way to life here on Earth is actually death." [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: And like, there's more. There's more.
Seth: It's like the positive-
David: Lift, lift up your eyes
Seth: ... and negative cases for getting-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... back to the Garden of Eden.
David: Two sides of the same coin, as the saying goes.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: I'm very interested in that. That's very interesting. Okay. Um, what else do we need to say about wisdom literature be- before we dive into some of the-
Seth: Um
David: ... the specifics of Ecclesiastes?
Seth: Well, I think we need to talk about why wisdom literature is important as it relates to our study of and worship of Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, [laughs] so, like, the pur- So wisdom can feel, um, philosophical.
David: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Seth: Like, it... Like, the word phil- phil- philosophe means-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... lover of wisdom, right? [laughs]
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: It just means, like, a lover, a philosopher, somebody who loves wisdom.
David: Right.
Seth: And we add this connotation, like the, this kind of dry, arid professor somewhere.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's probably the class you either loved in college or you hated in college.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: But, like, that's, um, that's c- not kind of the context that we, not the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the tone we want to set here.
David: Yeah. I think also-
Seth: Um-
David: ... wisdom, wisdom can come across as a very moralistic category.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? Where it's very easy to fall into a moralism, where it's like, "Cool. Proverbs is just like a guidebook to salvation. If I do X, Y, Z, I get back in the Garden of Eden."
Seth: I'll live this blessed life.
David: And I'll live this blessed life, and everything's great, and I don't need Jesus, you know? [laughs] And so that's not... That's clearly, Jesus came to prove that it's not the kind of wisdom that he's talking about. And so, um, yeah. Sorry, what were you setting up there with-
Seth: No. So what I was setting up was, like, so we can approach the idea of wisdom literature kind of as either kind of this dry, intellectual exercise or this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... moralistic exercise-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where it's like we come to wisdom literature to find out the right formula. If I do this, then Eden pops out of the other side.
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: But, um, like, that's not what wisdom brings us to.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So, like, fascinatingly, all throughout Proverbs, um, wisdom is personified. It's like it's described most concretely not as a formula, but as a woman.
David: As a woman, Lady Wisdom.
Seth: And like, as Lady Wisdom, who's calling out to people to follow her, follow her ways.
David: Yeah, and she, she cries out to people, "If anyone would listen to my voice, I will pour my spirit into them, and they will have life."
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, "Pour my spirit into them so that they might have life."
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, that might as well have been ripped from John 4, when Jesus is talking to the woman at the well.
David: I think it was ripped.
Seth: But we also... [laughs] Like, but we also have, like, really, like, clear, like, indications within the New Testament that they're drawing on the wisdom literature as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So even for the fact that Proverbs 3 tells us that, "The Lord made the world with wisdom," and John 1 tells us that Jesus made the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: So, like, we know that when it says the Lord, Yahweh, Jesus was forming the world with wisdom.
David: Yes.
Seth: The reason the world works according to certain patterns and predictable outcomes is because Jesus designed it that way.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And Colossians 2:3 says that, "In Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
David: Hmm.
Seth: Paul will say in 1 Corinthians that we preach Christ crucified because the power of God and the wisdom of God are hidden within the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So, like, we have really strong, uh, pointers in the New Testament to say that Jesus is definitively Lady Wisdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He is wisdom personified, living on the Earth. He's as if the Book of Proverbs came to life.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and he doesn't make the decisions Ecclesiastes tells him not to make, but yes.
David: Oh, okay. So I think there's two things I'm hearing here. One is the easy thing, which I wish we could just stop there, but there's a deeper thing that I wanna, like, try to plumb with you. So-
Seth: Okay
David: ... so there's the easy thing, which is, like, Jesus lived a life of wisdom, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, he lived in perfect accordance with the world that he had made. Um, I think the strange thing that happened there is that when he did that, it didn't lead to a blessed life for him. It led to death, and that seems very unwise, and that seems like he did something wrong. Um, and yet, like you were, like some of the verses you were quoting, the death of Jesus is ultimate wisdom because those who lose their life actually end up saving it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and, and so, and, like, the wisdom of God from eternity past, like, this brilliant, wise plan that God put in place when he made the world with wisdom, was to die in the world that he wisely made.Like, that is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is the picture. Like, I, I'm trying to- So there's this other layer I'm trying to, like, drill down into, which is why is wisdom inside Jesus? Like, why is it within Jesus, in His death, burial, and resurrection, that all wisdom is contained? Because if we try to just say that wisdom is, like, these moral precepts are living alongside the grain of the world, we're getting to part of it, but the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... reality is Christ. And so, like, what does it mean to say that wisdom is within Jesus? Like, that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's hard. That's blowing my mind.
Seth: Well, 1 Corinthians, again, "The foolishness of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is wiser than men-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the weakness of God is stronger than men." The foolishness of God is wiser than men. So what do you ha- what did you just describe?
David: Mm.
Seth: Doesn't it seem foolish-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Jesus would live a wise life and get nothing from it?
David: Yes.
Seth: It's the Book of Ecclesiastes.
David: It's the Book of Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Like, it's the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... isn't this a foolish life to spend perf- doing all these great things and getting-
David: And then everything just ends in death
Seth: ... no reward from it?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then, so, w- what Paul-
David: And it also, it also counteracts Proverbs. That's like, uh, He did all these things, and where is the blessing?
Seth: And so what Paul is, Paul is, like, putting your... It's like, why is that wi- why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... how could that be wise?
David: How could that be wise?
Seth: How could that be wise?
David: It's foolishness to-
Seth: And-
David: ... the Jews. [laughs]
Seth: It's foolishness to the Jews, and the f- it seems foolish to God. Didn't God design the world this way?
David: Yeah.
Seth: But what seem, what God considers foolish, what we could only see as foolish, God sees as wise.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, he's like, I don't know if that's getting what, to, hitting for you what I want it to, but like-
David: It, it, it's getting close. I think what I'm, what I'm starting to circle around in my own heart is this idea that if wisdom is how to live rightly in the world, and all of wisdom is within Jesus as a person, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And as God revealed, and as God revealed in the act of death and resurrection. He's like, and He's wisely ruling as our King. So if, if wisdom is living rightly in the world, and wisdom is all inside of Jesus, then the best way to live within this world is living it, is living in it with Jesus, is, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... looking for Jesus, communing with Jesus, worshiping Jesus, like, communing with Jesus. Like, that is wisdom. What is wisdom? It's being with Jesus. Like, if He's wisdom, then to have wisdom is to have Him, and the wisest thing we can do is to get Him, to feast on Him, to be with Him, to rejoice in Him. Like, I feel like that is where all wisdom literature is driving me now that I'm looking back at it-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as quickly as I can in my mind, is it's like every wisdom Psalm is telling me to rejoice in Yahweh, fully revealed in Jesus. Like, every Proverb is telling me to l- like, walk alongside Jesus as He is Lady Wisdom, guiding me down the path of life. Ecclesiastes is telling me that no endeavor I find in this world is gonna satisfy me fully unless I have Jesus with me, like, side by side. So it's like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the wisest thing I can do to live in this world is to get Christ. Like- [laughs]
Seth: Right
David: ... that's, I feel like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that's what I'm wanting to land on, and that I-
Seth: Yes
David: ... don't know if I've ever named before, is that's the wisest thing I can do, is to get Jesus.
Seth: Yes. I, yes. That's exactly right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Wisdom is gaining Christ. It's getting wisdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... inside of you. That's exactly right. And I wanna, like, keep pl- I wanna keep pushing from my, the foolishness of God. Like, what, what, what does that mean?
David: Mm.
Seth: And why is that wisdom to us? Um, because I th- I, but I can't, I can't figure it out, 'cause, like, there's something, there's a twist there that we're not expecting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The foolishness of God is to have Jesus die on the cross.
David: Well, maybe it's-
Seth: The foolishness of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is to have Him live a perfect life-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then to get none of the rewards that He-
David: Well-
Seth: ... promised them
David: ... I think we, I think we go back to wisdom, right? Wisdom literature, the key to wisdom literature is how do we get life? If, if Proverbs i- is all about getting us to the tree of life, and, and Ecclesiastes is about pointing to us that, like, without true wisdom, all we get is death. Like, the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what hangs in the balance with wisdom is life and death, and it seems to be-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the bent of wisdom literature to guide us in our lives in a way to which they're bent towards life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet, when God, wisdom in the flesh, He who made the whole world, in His wisdom comes, He chose death after living a wise life? That's stupid. That's foolishness. And yet, in that-
Seth: Right
David: ... is the wisest thing that has ever occurred, because the whole bent of the universe, the whole grain of the universe, was not just bending towards morality or towards a smart way of living or towards making wise decisions. The whole grain of the universe was bent toward the cross of Jesus, for, for the moment when God would reveal that the wisest thing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that has ever been done is the greatest power, dying for His enemies. Is, like, love showing itself on full display for those who don't deserve it. The wisest thing that can be done is laying down your life for another. Like, that is true wisdom. It's the Gospel.
Seth: The greatest wisdom of the world is death and resurrection.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then think about so m- like, Paul does this. A seed goes in the ground, and it dies.
David: Right.
Seth: And it brings forth new fruit. A star implodes, and it creates a black hole, sucking things towards it, but also, like, potentially the beginning of new universes. Like-
David: Right, yeah
Seth: ... we have all these examples within our created order where death brings about new life.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, always. Even, like, crazy ones where, like, praying mantis females eat their husbands.
David: Their young. Oh, their hu- yeah, their husbands.
Seth: Their husbands.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But without that, the young don't survive. Like-
David: Yeah, it's so weird
Seth: ... w- like, there is, the deepest wisdom is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and there are hints of it even in the seasons.
David: Oh, my gosh.
Seth: The death of winter-
David: Yes
Seth: ... brings about spring.
David: And, and think about this. Think ab- oh, okay, so-To, to ta- to finish this thread, the greatest... If wisdom is all about how to get life, how do we get life in Christ? We die.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, we die to sin, we die to self, we die in Christ, we are crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live. Galatians 2:20 is, is wisdom incarnate, like, in a little sentence.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I've been crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live. And so, like, what is... How do we, how do we walk on the path to wisdom today as Christians? We die with Christ, and in that is the greatest wisdom, that in that death, we will live forever. Like, that's it. Like, that is the deep twist of wisdom, in the foolishness of God dying on a cross.
Seth: Those who try to gain their own life will lose it, but those who lose their life for my sake will gain it. And I think if you were gonna, like, put a New Testament gloss on the Book of Ecclesiastes, that's as, probably as close as you're gonna get. Those who try to gain their own life are gonna lose it, but those who lose their life for God's sake will gain it. [gentle music]
David: Hey, friends. David here with a quick reminder: We don't only release podcasts every week. We also release video introductions to books of the Bible every month. Just search Spoken Gospel on YouTube if you haven't watched them yet. And we also release short, three-minute distillations of the conversation Seth and I have in our devotional videos. Three of these come out every week unless we're on a season break, and you can also find those on our YouTube channel as well, youtube.com/spokengospel. All right, back to it. Okay, so we have gone down, for me, what has been mo- one of the most beneficial rabbit holes I think I've ever gone down in quite a while.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, we've talked a lot about Proverbs, we've talked a lot about wisdom literature, we've touched Ecclesiastes, so I wanna double down now for all of our, our friends listening who are like, "When are you gonna talk about Ecclesiastes?" [laughs] Uh, all right.
Seth: 30 minutes later. [laughs]
David: Let's talk, let's talk about it. Um, uh, so Ecclesiastes, it comes to us, and it's v- anyone who's read it knows it is a very unique book of the Bible. Even non-Christians will read it because they, they feel like it's the only book they can relate to because it has this very sober, raw, jaded almost, it seems-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... view of the world where he's like, "You know, no matter how much pleasure you get, you're never satisfied. You know, no matter how much money you get, you're never happy. No matter how fulfilling of a job you have, uh, it never, you know, actually brings you contentment. Uh, you know, no matter how much you-
Seth: And even if you make money-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's gonna all be wasted on your entitled son, so.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And then you'll ruin your son. Uh, and then ultimately, no matter what you do, give it enough generations and they'll forget about you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, yeah, you know, like, we remember George Washington, but do you remember who was the president of a country, you know, 10,000 years ago?
Seth: I know.
David: You know? Give it a few generations.
Seth: I preached through this book not too long ago with my, a s- student ministry, and I was like, "How many of you know your grandparents' names?"
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Everybody raised their hand. Great grandparents' names. A ton of people's hands dropped.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Great-great-grandparents' names. Like, two people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, in a room full of 100-something kids, two people remember their great-great-grandparents' names.
David: Right.
Seth: Anyway, the point is, Ecclesiastes says, "See?"
David: Yep.
Seth: "It's not worth building a name for yourself because not even your own children-
David: Right
Seth: ... will remember you." [laughs]
David: Yep. And, and it's just like, it's like, you know, how many people died right now and no one knows about it? Like, those are the kind of sentiments that Ecclesiastes brings to us, and it's, like, a real downer.
Seth: Yes.
David: Or is it? You know, like, that's my-
Seth: Or is it? Yeah.
David: So that's my question to you, Seth, is, is Ecclesiastes just this pessimistic, dark cloud that doesn't really belong in the Bible? [laughs] Like, what's, what's going on with this book?
Seth: [laughs]
David: Is it pessimistic? Is it, is it a sad book that we should just, like-
Seth: It's, like, honestly one of the things that I, I... So I, I've studied this, I don't know how many hours I've spent studying Ecclesiastes. Um, and I've honestly had no more difficult time trying to nail down what a book means or the tone of the book than I have with Ecclesiastes.
David: Yep.
Seth: So I kinda say that to s- uh, up front to say, like, there's actually a lot of different ways people have historically-
David: Yes
Seth: ... um, read Ecclesiastes.
David: Interpreted, yeah. Yeah.
Seth: Interpreted, interpreted Ecclesiastes.
David: Yeah, and full dis- full disclaimer to our dear friends and listeners out there who have grown fond of the bond between Seth and I.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You should know we're still best friends.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But also, no book has caused longer arguments-
Seth: [laughs] Yeah
David: ... off-air between Seth and I. All very well-spirited.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, but we have talked for probably accumulated almost 10 hours of discussion over this book.
Seth: D- debating whether or not-
David: Debating. Now we've come down on something we agree on.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, uh, but you might get hints of that discussion here and there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we come, we came down on the same side, and I was... It was fruitful. But to, I just say that to say, like, people have wrestled with how to understand this book. It's not evident of i- if it's like, so is the author of Ecclesiastes, like, is it wisdom to listen to him and his pessimism? Like, do I need to adopt a pessimism into my life?
Seth: So maybe-
David: Or-
Seth: ... this is a helpful place to also talk about, like, how is Ecclesiastes structured a little bit too. So, like, there's a really clear introduction to the Book of Ecclesiastes in Ecclesiastes 1 through 11, the first 11 verses, and there's a really clear conclusion in 12, uh, 9 through 14.
David: Right.
Seth: And the rest is told from a different perspective than the two, the intro and the conclusion. So some people will read the book and say, "We have a father introducing his son to the collected writings of this man named Kohelet."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the idea is that you have, like, this secularist in the Bible who's saying, "Look at how pointless everything is," and he's giving this alternate vision of reality, and this father is inviting his son to read it and then critique it on his own. That's one way to read the book. Another wa- way to read the book is, uh-Which is, I th- which I was compelled by for a long time. I thought it was a really interesting way to frame the book. You actually have within scripture a non-Christian, non-Yahweh-fearing point of view that we're being asked to wrestle with.
David: Mm.
Seth: But I don't think that actually does justice to what's actually happening in the book of Ecclesiastes.
David: Right.
Seth: Over and over again, within that supposedly secularist frame, God jumps in the middle of it. Qohelet tells us... Qohelet's the name of the author. I don't know if we've said that.
David: Yeah, the preacher. The preacher.
Seth: The preacher, the teacher. Uh-
David: Qohelet is just the, the Hebrew conjugation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the word.
Seth: And, uh, but he just jumps in and talks about how we should fear God and praise God and worship God and remember God, and what God has done for us. So it's like I don't think that's the way to read it. Um, the other way to read it is profoundly optimistically, that in line with wisdom literature, there is, um, [lips smack] He is telling us the way we should act in a world that seems off.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the advice is to eat and drink and be merry, uh, because tomorrow we die, basically. That's kind of like-
David: Yeah [laughs]
Seth: ... the short version of it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, eat, drink, and be merry because w- w- like, enjoy your wife, enjoy your kids, enjoy your wine.
David: Yeah. It's like the parable, it's like the parable of this, this, uh, businessman who comes to the fisherman, and he's a great fisherman, and every day the fisherman goes out on the lake, and he fishes for a couple hours, catches what he needs for the day, comes in, takes a long siesta with his wife, and then has dinner with his family.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, and, and then the f- the, this businessman comes and he's like, "Hey, you're a great fisherman. Why don't you start a fishing enterprise, and you can work and grow this great big fishing enterprise, and then whenever you have all the money in the world, you'll be able to just go out on your boat and fish for a little bit, come in, take a siesta with your wife, and then have dinner with your family."
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "I have that now."
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, some people think that the wisdom of Ecclesiastes is just enjoy the small bit of goodness you have now instead of trying to get a bunch, 'cause it, uh, ultimately won't satisfy.
Seth: Yes. And I think there's good... I mean, there, there is good wisdom there. I've talked to a lot of people who are just totally dissatisfied with what's going on. Like, so the wisdom of enjoying what you have because tomorrow it could be gone is good wisdom, and it's an optimistic type of wisdom. Like, it could be g- Like, enjoy what you have. God's given it to you. Just enjoy it. So there's a, the optimistic way to read it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And there's a, this really negative way to read it, where it's like everything is... So the word they use is hevel or smoke or, like, wind. You spend your-
David: Vanity of vanities. Everything is vanity.
Seth: Vanity of vanities. Like, you spend your whole life trying to pursue things that never end up working out for you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You pursue wealth, it falls away, or your e- entitled son steals it all. Like, it just doesn't work, so might as well just eat the food you can, drink the wine you can, uh-
David: And be kind of mildly depressed
Seth: ... and be mildly depressed, because what, what better life is there? [laughs]
David: Yeah, it's a ni- it's a ni- a nihilistic view of Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: Yeah. Nothing matters, so just, you know, sit in your swimming pool all day and get drunk.
Seth: And the difference between the nihilistic view and the p- optimistic view is actually really close. [laughs] Like-
David: Very close
Seth: [laughs] So it's like-
David: They're very close
Seth: ... everything is smoke and will go away, so eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you die. Or everything is hevel and smoke-
David: It's just the tone of voice
Seth: ... and eat, or eat and drink tomorrow for you die. It's, like, literally just the tone of voice.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So, like, it's really hard. [laughs] It felt, felt really difficult for us to, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... me at least-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... land on what I felt was the, the, the right reading of it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So here's where, where I landed.
David: Okay.
Seth: Ultimately, Ecclesiastes is giving us a realistic, if brutal, picture of the way the world as it actually is.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The world is full of disappointments, contradictions, and, uh, exemptions or exceptions to the rules-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as God has laid out in his wisdom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the good news in a world that is full of vanity and meaninglessness and smoke is that God kind of sits above the world and makes sure that no good deed or bad deed goes unpunished or unrewarded. God is watching even when it looks like nobody is. Qohelet kind of presents this picture, like, the world's just gone amok. Nothing's going according to plan. But the very last bit of the book of Ecclesiastes kind of gives us the good news-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, in the book of Ecclesiastes, and it, and he says in verse, um, [clears throat] 14, the very, very last verse of Ecclesiastes, "Because, uh, God will bring every deed into judgment with every sec- secret thing, whether good or evil." So the idea is you have this world that kind of does not operate according to the wisdom the way that we thought it should.
David: Mm.
Seth: The world does not operate the way it should. Good people are taken advantage of. Bad people get ahead. Good people die young. Evil people live long. Why is that? And the good news is, do not worry. God will judge. He will make sure that all these things shake out in the end.
David: Mm.
Seth: So if that's the good news of the book, you're supposed to re- I think you're supposed to read the rest of the book in light of that. All of this does look like vanity and meaninglessness and smoke, but there is a God who sits above the chaos and smoke of the world, who can give you not just meaning, but a good life in a world of meaninglessness, the blessed life, the Edenic life in a world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where everything is out of control. So how do you have Eden in the middle of chaos? You eat, like you were supposed to in Eden. You drink. You enjoy the things that God has given you, because He is judging, and He will make sure that you, um-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... are with Him on the final day.
David: But you don't... Yeah, but you don't do it from, like, a, "Well, this is all I have, so here we go."You know, carpe diem would be-
Seth: Right
David: ... the opposite of this.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, carpe diem is either the blind optimism or the hopeless pessimism that people want to impose upon Ecclesiastes. But what you're saying is that there's this middle road that embraces the pessimism, but holds out an even better optimism that says that, um, there is wisdom in the contentment Ecclesiastes offers, but it is taking the good gifts that God gives as just that, as gifts to be enjoyed, not as things that you earn to be eaten up before they're gone, or as smoke to be grabbed before it slips between your fingers. Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... these are things that God has actually intended for you to enjoy today. Worship him and enjoy.
Seth: Enjoy.
David: And like those are... Uh, yeah. So I think that's really helpful. I think it's also really helpful... I think the wisest thing I've heard about Ecclesiastes, uh, also pointed out these two poles. Uh, I think it was a professor giving a lecture series at, uh, I can't remember, maybe Reformed Theological Seminary. I think it was RTS. And, uh, he said that most interpreters fail when they think that Ecclesiastes is all pessimistic or all optimistic.
Seth: Okay.
David: And the right way to read it is to embrace the fact that there are some pessimistic things, and those pessimism- those pessimisms help us live in a fallen world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They... A- and like they give-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a divine this is actually okay to just brokenness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like we just name it. And like the, whenever, whenever rich people... Or, or sorry, whenever like evil people get rich and live long, um, you don't have to like think that-
Seth: Solve it
David: ... that, that God's out of control.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, God knows that exception exists and inspired literature for his Bible to let us know that. Like, that's amazing. Uh-
Seth: And I think part of the reason why it's difficult to like read it and figure out what it is, because it kind of, and rather than giving you a straight answer, it kind of invites you to live in the tension between the way the world should be-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the way the world actually is.
David: That's right.
Seth: And the response in the middle can kind of seem like it goes both ways.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it, and it could, unless you have confidence that there's a God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who will bring evil people to justice, and he will reward good people, um, on the last day.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah, definitely. And so I think it, it, as we step into Ecclesiastes then, um, in this series, I, I think it'll be helpful for us to try to soberly assess the pessimism and go, "What is here that's just like true? Like, yeah, we live this. This is real. This is the way the world's actually working."
Seth: Yeah.
David: But then to always look for the, the, the, uh, godly optimism-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and say like, "But what is true about God above it all-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that helps us not just despair in this?" And I think that it'll... it's really helpful here in this moment, and I'll probably bring it up in the next episode when we step into chapter one. 'Cause for me, I know you know this, but for me, this frames the Book of Ecclesiastes for me, and this is the idea that he, he says throughout the whole book, and this is, there's this line between what is above the sun and what is below the sun. Um, and you have to kind of think about how he- how the Hebrew mind viewed the cosmos. There was, you know, above the sun is the heavens, below the sun is the created order. And so he, you know, he says in, in the beginning of Ecclesiastes that he set out to understand the world under the sun-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... basically without God, and none of it makes sense. None of the world makes sense without God. Everything's broken. Good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people, and none of Proverbs comes true. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: But then every now and then he peels back the, the, the divider, you know, between heaven and earth, and he, he looks up into heaven and says, "But I know that God is good," or, and I know... "But I know that God will judge. But I know that good gifts come from God."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, it gives us this little tiny peek into Eden, this little tiny peek into optimism, and I think that's what we're supposed to do, is to see that in a, in a world full of pessimism and hopelessness and contradictions, God's wisdom comes to us and says that there is a solid hope.
Seth: Mm. Yeah.
David: Like, there is peace and a solution and solid ground to stand on in a world that feels shifting and unpredictable and wrong. Like, there is goodness.
Seth: I think another way to say it is you have an e- most people have an expectation of the way the world should be.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: Like, I as a kid had an expectation of the way the world should be, not just from scripture, but from, like, being naive and what my parents told me. Like, a really great example was my parents told me that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And I believed that until I realized some people are just jerks.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, and they're just literally hate me and want to make fun-
David: All these bullies really love me.
Seth: Right, right. [laughs]
David: They just want to mock me? Aw.
Seth: So it's like I expected the world to work one way, and it didn't.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in that moment, I kind of have two choices, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: I can kind of optimistically and naively just dismiss that. "No, no, no, that is flattery."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "They love me."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or I can be tempted to despair in that moment and say like, "Well, nothing matters. I'll never have any friends for the rest of my life." Like, those are, like, my two, like, the two poles.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think Ecclesiastes, we want to read Ecclesiastes in either one of those two poles.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We want to despair that anything in the world can ever be good, or we kind of want to sweep the suffering under the rug and say, "See? There's still goodness here despite it all, and we can just ignore all the bad stuff."
David: Right.
Seth: And I think what Ecclesiastes-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is calling us to is neither optimism nor despair, but fear.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge, that faith and trust that God is above the sun, and he will take, um, into account all that happens and bring it to justice in the final day.
David: Yeah. What, what-
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: It does, and what an amazing, um, apologetic. You know, an apologetic is like a, an argument for God, you know? Like, a, what an amazing apologetic, 'cause I think what people do when they bring upTheir problem with a God view, like a God-centered view of reality, or a theistic view of reality, that God, there's a good God that created everything and is all-powerful. They say like, "Well, if God's all-powerful, then bad things wouldn't happen to good people." You know? And I love that our Bibles are unafraid to bring out all of the worst objections people could have to a theistic worldview, and be like, "This is the way the world works, and I believe in God." You know? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like-
Seth: So-
David: ... what a cool thing. [laughs]
Seth: It's really cool, and let's just double down on how cool that is, and talk about Qohelet's name for a second.
David: Okay, sure. Sure, sure, sure.
Seth: Because we don't just have a book of the Bible telling us about the suffering of the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We have this figure called Qohelet. So your Bible probably tr- teaches it, uh, translates it as, like, a-
David: The preacher or the teacher
Seth: ... the preacher or the teacher.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, but the, um, the Hebrew is Qohelet.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the Hebrew name-
David: Yeah. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for it.
David: Yep. Qahal, uh, yep.
Seth: The qahaler, the qahal. He kah- Qohelet qahals things.
David: [laughs] The qohe-
Seth: Uh-
David: The Qohelet qahals people.
Seth: And what's fascinating is all throughout scripture, a qahal-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or a qohelet is present at all these major moments in redemptive history. Moses is called a qohelet or a qahaler, uh-
David: And, and the people of Israel around Moses are the qahal of God.
Seth: The assembled of God. Uh-
David: The assembly of God, yeah.
Seth: You have, uh, King David-
David: Is a qahaler
Seth: ... convenes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He qahals people.
David: Yep.
Seth: He's a qohelet.
David: Even, even, even the, even the founding fathers of the faith, you know, like Isaac, um, gives a blessing to his, uh, to his son, and he prays that his son would increase and be fruitful and multiply into a great qahal. You know?
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, yeah, right.
Seth: So-
David: So it's like-
Seth: So you have this-
David: A qahal is like this chosen people of God, uh, led by... So, like, they are the qahal, and then the, the, the qohelet of the qahal, [laughs] right?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: The assembler of the assembly, the speaker to the assembly is the qohelet, right? And he-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he is, he, at these great moments of redemptive history, he qahals to the people, and he assembles the people and speaks to them and gives them wisdom and direction, blessing and di- you know, and, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and one of those moments that comes to us in the Bible, I think is what you're getting at, is Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Yes.
David: We are qahaled around this book, and the qohelet comes to us, the assembled ones of God, and gives us God's wisdom, and he gives us these pessimistic words. Like [laughs] it's, it's-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this strange thing.
Seth: So we don't just have a book describing the weirdness of life or the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... unfairness of life. I think you have a messianic figure.
David: Mm.
Seth: A pre-Ge- a prefigurement of Jesus delivering to us the way the world actually is on the ground.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so, and he's offering us, "You have two options here. You have pessimism, despair over the futility of life, or you can naively assume everything is fine and brush it all under the rug. Or you can trust the words of the qohelet."
David: Mm.
Seth: "God will judge. God will judge. All good things, both hidden and secret, God will judge." And what's fascinat- so I think in one level, the qohelet is Jesus. The author of Ecclesiastes, I think probably we would say Solomon, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... he's Solomon. But he's also Jesus, who proclaims that in a world where we're tempted to either naivety or despair, there is one coming, he himself, who will be judged for you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to bring about the new Eden in a world that is out of control. He will bring control, he, like, to you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by his own judgment. I think that's where w- I want to go by the time we get-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to the end of the book of-
David: No, it's so good
Seth: ... Ecclesiastes.
David: Well, I think another way to talk about it, when we talk about, like, this optimism or pessimism, you know, like the optimist wants to look at the world and be like, "No, everything's fine. I'm good. You're good. God's good. Everything's fine." And Jesus, as the ultimate qohelet, steps in, he's like, "No, there's a lot of this fall that needs to be dealt with, and it needs to be dealt with in flesh and blood and death." And Jesus enters in and does not allow for blind optimism. The gospel doesn't allow for it. But then the pessimist wants to go like, "Everything's death, and everything ends, and everything's pointless." And Jesus is like, "No, I rose from the dead, and I forgave sins, and I made the end of life its beginning," you know? "And I brought life into eternity." You know, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he doesn't allow for blind optimism or hopeless pessimism. Like, Jesus conquers both in his death and resurrection. And, like, that's why he's wisdom, and that's why he's qohelet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's cool.
Seth: He, he describes the world as it actually is. And I think there's like, that's a common misconception about Christianity, that it's like-
David: Rose-colored
Seth: ... it's rose-colored. People don't know what they're talking about. So I kinda love the fact that we have an Ecclesiastes in our scripture-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... where it doesn't gloss over real p- pain, real suffering, real, um, like, injustice. And it says, and that Jesus himself comes and says, "No, no, I'm going to absorb all of that."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I will be judged for all that, so that all these things that went wrong for good people, people who have feared the Lord, who have trusted in the Lord, will become untrue, will become true."
David: Mm.
Seth: "New Eden will rest."
David: Yeah. Oh, man. Well, I cannot wait to dive into this book chapter by chapter here. Um, I don't know how many episodes we'll do in all. Um-
Seth: I don't know.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I feel like we could be in here forever. It's an awesome book. [laughs]
David: [laughs] We won't put our poor listeners through that. Uh, but we'll, we'll, we'll be in here for a little bit. It's a short, it's a shorter book, so we won't be in here forever, but I'm excited. We'll jump into chapter one, maybe one and two, uh, next week. Uh, I'm l- very much looking forward to talking about the word hevel, vanity of vanities, everything is vanity.
Seth: Mm.
David: Looking at, uh, who, who was this guy who wrote the preface and, you know, like, what was the first experiment that, that the, the preacher went through to prove his thesis. And, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... there's lots of, there's a lot to talk about.
Seth: There's some stuff.
David: So I'm excited. So, uh, man, Seth, thanks for contributing so much today. I just, I felt really blessed by a lot of things you had to say, and, um, really thankful for all you guys for listening. Um, we just, we, it's such a great joy for us to get to do this for you and for ourselves, and we just, uh, we're thankful that you're here with us listening. So, uh, thank you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all for being here with us, and we will see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
