Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] All right. Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We are glad to be back in the Book of Ecclesiastes with you. Seth, good morning.
Seth: Good morning, David. How are you?
David: Oh, I usually ask you that question.
Seth: I know.
David: Um, I am... I'm tr- I'm tired this mor- it's, it's 6:46 AM.
Seth: It's a great time.
David: The sun is rising out my eastern window, um-
Seth: An eastern window
David: ... at, at the Spoken, at the Spoken Gospel office, and I'm tired. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'm tired. I don't know why. I got... I, like, went to bed-
Seth: Lots of light
David: ... on time. It's... No.
Seth: So-
David: I, I hate that.
Seth: [laughs] There's a thing at Spoken Gospel offices where you can't blame-
David: The day of the week
Seth: ... your emotion [laughs] on the day of the week. [laughs]
David: It's like, "Man, you're, you're kinda just dragging today, huh? Monday, right?" No.
Seth: No, no.
David: It-
Seth: That doesn't exist.
David: It's like, "I'm just feeling really unmotivated, 'cause it's Friday."
Seth: Ah, that's-
David: It's hevil.
Seth: It's hevil.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And there's the segue.
David: And there's the segue.
Seth: And there's the segue.
David: We always find one.
Seth: We should also point out something fun about what's happening right now, is that these podcasts are now done with me full time on staff at Spoken Gospel.
David: Wow, you just dropped that-
Seth: Should I not?
David: ... so casually.
Seth: [laughs]
David: That was so casual. So yes, the... We have three m- we have this one and two more episodes to record remotely while Seth transitions from Kansas City back to Oklahoma City.
Seth: In a crazy turn of events.
David: In a crazy turn of events, but because of the generous support of some of our supporters, Seth and his family are being able to move back to Oklahoma and to join Spoken Gospel full time.
Seth: Full time. I'm so excited.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm already excited.
David: So-
Seth: I have been excited.
David: Yeah, so he is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... gonna be mainly focusing on, um, content that we're making and, uh, helping us especially with our devotionals, because we're trying to do a devotional on every single literary unit of scripture.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, he has his-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... handfuls, his hands full with that, so.
Seth: There's only, like, 600 of those, maybe.
David: Yeah, no big deal.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah. So yes, so drop a, drop a comment welcoming-
Seth: Somewhere
David: ... Seth somewhere-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... to Spoken Gospel. Uh, anyway, um, so let me set up what's gonna happen today. So we spent a lot of time, uh-
Seth: Talking about time
David: ... talking about time last time. There we go. Uh, we, we kinda went through Ecclesiastes 3:1-15 last time, uh, and we talked about this famous, um, poetic s- uh, like s- what, what's the word I'm looking for? Section.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There we go. Um-
Seth: Time to weep and a time to laugh.
David: Yes.
Seth: A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones, and sometimes just to pick up a bunch of stones.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I remember when I was growing up, my dad would literally... He's like, "Move all that mulch from that corner of the yard to that corner of the yard." And then, like, a week passes, like, "Actually, we need it in the other cor- back where you found it." I'm like-
David: Hevil
Seth: ... "Dad." [laughs]
David: Smoke.
Seth: Smoke. [laughs]
David: Um-
Seth: I learned hevil-
David: Yeah, you did
Seth: ... early on from household chores. [laughs]
David: You really did. And, um-
Seth: One time I dug a hole-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and then I was told to fill it back in again. [laughs]
David: No.
Seth: I dug this giant, like, five-foot across, three-foot deep hole, and then my dad was like, "Oh, we're not gonna put anything in there, so fill it back in."
David: Sisyphus. That's Sisyphus.
Seth: Dad, what are you doing to me? Anyway...
David: Oh, no. Well-
Seth: I've experienced it firsthand, guys. [laughs]
David: So that is actually not what this text is about.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, the, the... As we, as we discussed at length last episode, [laughs] this text was, is all about the unknowability of God's plan, that there is a plan that God has been working from eternity past to eternity future, and we can't know it. And it seems like any time we try to get, line ourselves up with it, we're always just a minute late, or we chose the, the wrong activity, and we just can't sync up with God's time.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah. And so we hear this, um, this line here, if I can find it, is... Yeah, in, uh, 3:15: "Whatever is, whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before, and God will call the past to account." So it's this little, like, turn of a phrase that's kinda like, "There's nothing new under the sun," is kind of what it's saying.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And God has planned the future, and we can't do anything about it, is, like, this idea. And we hear that same, um, kind of line repeated at the end of chapter six in Ecclesiastes. And in between the two are a bunch of seemingly loose sayings.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and they weave in and out of two genres. So we kind of go into what sound like the book of Proverbs every now and then, or these, these short, um, dichotomized-
Seth: Ki-
David: ... pithy sayings. Um, but then it-
Seth: Here's an example in-
David: Okay, yeah
Seth: ... 4:5. Uh, "The fool folds his hand and eats his own flesh," meaning, like, the fool is lazy and ends up just destroying himself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Better, then, is a handful of quietness than two hand..." But then, [laughs] then it's, it goes crazy. "Better is a handful of quietness than two hands full of toil and striving after the wind." So he says it's better to do... It, it's foolishness to do nothing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... 'cause you're gonna eat your own flesh. But at the same time, it's also better to have a quiet life-Than two hands full of toil and striving after the wind. So don't not work, and don't work too hard.
David: Right.
Seth: Strive for quietness somewhere in the middle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the proverb. So anyway.
David: Yeah, exactly. So he, he has these, these very familiar sounding proverbs, but kind of with a Qohelet bent to them.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, but then it slips right back into old Qohelet that we're used to after three chapters, who just sounds like he's making observations again. I saw or I observed-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or I concluded, and he makes a, an observation about something. And it's like, oh, this is back to the regular Ecclesiastes, uh, like my regular-
Seth: Yeah, like so-
David: ... scheduled programming
Seth: ... fi- uh, Ecclesiastes 5:10, "He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, uh, nor he who loves wealth with his income. This also is vanity. When goods increase, they increase who eat them." When-
David: Yep
Seth: ... supply increases, so does demand. It's a-
David: Yep
Seth: ... endless cycle.
David: There's only-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... there's only folly. He's only-
Seth: Yes
David: ... showing folly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, but it seems like it's a good thing, but nope, it's hevel, and it's smoke.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and then so we get through all of those, and then we get to the end of chapter six, which repeats kind of what we read earlier in 6:10, "Whatever exists has already been named, and what humanity is has been known. No one can contend with someone who is stronger." And so it's like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the same thing. Um, what exists has already been named. God has already said what was going to happen, and now it's going to happen, and we can't know it. Humanity ha- uh, cannot be know- uh, cannot know it. And then, um, who can contend with God's will is, like, this whole-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... thing that's happening.
Seth: God, God judges what's right-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and what's wrong. He determines the times and the seasons. We need to deal with the life that we're given-
David: Right
Seth: ... not hope that this life can bring about the eternity or the, um, the Eden. That we, we-
David: Yeah. Yeah, the Eden
Seth: ... have to, like, give up hope-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that this life can bring us the satisfaction that we want it to, want it to give us.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, 'cause that's not in our hands. It's in God's.
David: Exactly. And so what, what happens in between these two sections, using these two different mediums of, um, like Proverbs and Qohelet observations, um, i- is kind of like Qohelet proving his point that, um, you can't quite use time correctly. Um, and, and really, I, I think a good way to think about everything that happens within these sections is under the heading of unfulfilled expectations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You think something is going to yield a certain result, and it always lets you down. And so we're-
Seth: Yes
David: ... gonna go through some of those, but I think there's some other ways you wanted to talk about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... understanding these.
Seth: So I think unmet expectations is a really helpful way to look at most of the Book of Ecclesiastes.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, we look at, to something, wealth, power, money, sex, uh, to satisfy us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I mean, he even says it here at the end of chapter six. Um, he says, "All the toil of man is for his mouth, yet his appetite is not satisfied." Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we, we work, and we work, and we work to do what? To eat.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then in the morning, we're always hungry.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's like, that's just the way life works. So, like, unmet expectations is a really helpful way to, like, uncover the wisdom in the Book of Ecclesiastes. But another kind of like secondary context to what's happening in the Book of Ecclesiastes is fatherly wisdom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to a son. So if we go back to the Book of Proverbs, the book, the whole Book of Proverbs, or much of the Book of Proverbs, is cast as, like, fatherly, kingly wisdom to his successor son.
David: Mm.
Seth: So if you go, just l- go back to the Book of Proverbs, all over the place it'll be something like, "My son, my son, my son, do this."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Don't do this. My son, don't do this, don't do this." Which is another reason why in the Book of Proverbs, uh, Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly are women-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is because a father's talking to his son, who will one day choose a wife, choose a spouse.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's saying, "Choose the wife of wisdom, not the wife of folly. Marry yourself to wisdom and right living and obeying the commands of God, because otherwise-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it leads to death." So, like, there's this theme within wisdom literature of a father speaking to his son. In Qohelet, it's not as pronounced, but it is there. The very end of the book, uh, in Ecclesiastes 9, or sorry, not 9.
David: Uh, 12.
Seth: 12. Uh, 12 ver- oh, sorry, actually, the first reference is in Ecclesiastes 11:9.
David: Oh.
Seth: "Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth." So apparently, Qohelet or the author or the compiler of Ecclesiastes imagines the Book of Ecclesiastes being picked up by y- a young man and reading it as a way to live his life.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then in verse 12 of chapter 12, it says, "My son, beware of anything beyond these," referring to, um, the wisdom of Qohelet.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and so part of the point is what we also have happening here is not just unmet expectations kinda, like, laid out in the ether. Potentially, you even have a father communicating to his son how he should live the rest of his life, and in particular, a kingly so- a kingly father to a son who will one day take the throne.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, uh, the, the son is, um, the prince who's one da- they gonna take the throne. The idea is that this wisdom is supposed to help him rule better, to rule with less folly and more wisdom than his father did.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's another way to think about it, and it kinda makes sense most particularly of that cultivated fields reference I made earlier. If you see in your province, the, in your province, in a province, the oppression of the poor and the violation of justice because there's somebody who owns a lot tire, well, what's to do? What are you supposed to do? A king committed to cultivated fields. If you just concentrate on cultivated fields, not only will you be provided for, my son, but the poor in the land will also have a place to work. So, like, that's a sub-theme or even just-
David: Mm
Seth: ... a way to understand wisdom literature in general that I think is also helpful here, a father speaking to his son.
David: Yeah. What, like how does that help us, or like why do you think he was writing this way or picking up on this tradition of a kingly father writing to a princely son in the context of some of the smokish sayings of Ecclesiastes? Like, how is that helpful? Like, "Hey, son. Let's sit down and have a conversation." [laughs]
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: "Everything's terrible." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like, uh, why do you think... Like does that, does that, does that, to you, help? Does the father-son dynamic like fit that or help explain that?
Seth: Well, I think it's like we both have sons.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I know there's already been times with my four-year-old where I've had to just sit down and explain to him, "Hey, bud, the, this is not the way life works."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Just because you say you want something-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and throw a tantrum about it, doesn't mean you're gonna get it."
David: Wait, what?
Seth: "In fact, you could work really hard and not get that thing." So like I've had to have like those like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "This is what the world's really like, Shiloh. Like, you need to kind of set, adjust your expectations." I've had those conversations with my daughter as well. So in one sense, it just helps me make sense of what's happening here. This book is really hard to understand. Why would somebody always just be harping on the same point, unmet expectations, unmet expectations, unmet expectation, don't put your hope in wealth-
David: Mm
Seth: ... don't put your hope in sex, don't put your hope in women, don't put your hope in this? Well, that's what a good father would do.
David: Mm.
Seth: And if this father is also a king, that also has ripple effects for the whole country or the whole kingdom that the-
David: Right
Seth: ... king is a part of. And if this father is a king speaking to his son, we also have a picture of what Jesus would say to us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as we rule in His kingdom as well. So I'm thinking, I was thinking, like even verse 6:7, chapter six, verse seven, "All the toil of man is for his mouth, yet his appetite is not satisfied."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What does Jesus say? Uh, "Man shall not live-
David: Shall not live on bread alone
Seth: ... by bread alone, but every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Why does, uh, Qohelet or the author here in verse five tell hi- his audience, whether it's a son or somebody else, to fear the Lord and to obey his commandments? Well, because man shall not live off the hevel of life alone, but every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's the final verse of, uh, Ecclesiastes, "For God will bring every deed into judgment, whether, with every secret thing, whether good or evil. Fear God and keep his commandments."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "This is the whole duty of man." So I think it's also a way to see this book as straight from the mouth of Jesus, Jesus the king speaking to us about how bread will not satisfy. We can only be satisfied in His law and in His kingdom. I think that's part of like all like the-
David: Mm
Seth: ... threads I'm pulling together.
David: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. And I think it's helpful, especially when I think about these seemingly disconnected sayings in this section-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where we move from one subject to the next, and it seems like there wasn't really a good logical handoff between the two. It does feel like I'm reading Proverbs again.
Seth: Right.
David: Um, and uh, and so I think that's helpful. It's like, uh, a, you know, a father, like who would like write down a saying i- in his kingly court, and then go be distracted by some kind of thing to do, or rem- "Oh, oh, I also wanted to tell my son this," and then write the next thing. Um, but you know, we also have mentioned how well-crafted Ecclesiastes is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from a literary standpoint, that it's very intentional. And so I think the, I think the logical conclusion has to be that, um, Qohelet is intentionally creating a counter Proverbs-
Seth: Mm. Yes
David: ... you know, stylistically. Because it even says, um, that-
Seth: And what you mean by that is that the disjointed nature of the proverbs, the reason why you go from the vanity of wealth to fearing God to how to cultivate lands, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the reason why that's disjointed is to point you to the fact that life is full of unmet expectations. Life is hevel. Life is confusing. Life doesn't work out the way that you're supposed to. It's, it proves the point of Qohelet.
David: Yes. I think so, literarily s- speaking, like I think the disjointed structure, um, helps prove Qohelet's point.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Just, yeah. But I also think that he is intentionally, um, mimicking or mirroring the Book of Proverbs.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We know he's very familiar with it. He might even be the same author. Um, but Ecclesiastes 12 says, "Not only was the teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs."
Seth: Mm.
David: So like he's a proverbs genius.
Seth: Right.
David: You know? And uh, and so like I think-
Seth: It's-
David: Yeah, I think that he's, he's creating these counter proverbs where it's like, "This sounds like the Book of Proverbs, doesn't it? But I'm not gonna let, but it's not gonna end the way you think it's gonna end."
Seth: Right. The wisdom's always gonna have a slant to it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This like pessimistic-ish slant to it. And what's fascinating, I think, what about, about what you just said, is that the Book of Proverbs will all... Like scholars on the Book of Proverbs will say the disjointed nature of Proverbs itself-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... actually points to the way wisdom normally functions. Like the way that we gain wisdom is not by sitting down in the space of six months, learning all that we can about wealth.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then in the next six months, learning all the wisdom there is about proper relationships with your spouse.
David: Right.
Seth: And then in the next six months, learning all about proper relationships with your k- children. Normally, the way wisdom is gathered is by you live your life, and in one moment you're disciplining your child, and then you're having a fight with your wife, and then you have to budget something, uh, and then, then, um, your boss screws you over at work, and you ha- don't have a job anymore. And you gather wisdom from all these different places simultaneously.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the Book of Proverbs presents to you wisdom as it happens in your life, in bits and pieces, in random moments, because that's the way wisdom works.
David: Yeah, that's helpful.
Seth: So-
David: That's really helpful
Seth: ... and so in Qohelet, fas- like, in a really interesting twist, is doing the same thing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is the way wisdom works
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's not-
David: Because this is the way life works. [laughs]
Seth: Because this is the way life-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... works. And in Proverbs, it's so do this in order to, uh, be wise.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Qohelet says, "Avoid this."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, is that... I know, trying to, like, get it, like, to the heart of the difference between Proverbs and Qohelet. Like, Proverbs is a moral, like, thing to do.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, do this to be wise, and Qohelet's is avoid this if you wanna be wise. Are those... How do I-
David: I mean, I think there's a lot of avoidance text in Proverbs.
Seth: That's true.
David: Like, a ton of them.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
David: Uh, avoid Lady Folly, flee from her, all those kinds of things. Um, you know, don't hang out with fools, don't keep company with misers, yada, yada, yada.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: So I don't think that's the difference. I think the difference is their conclusions and how they believe that wisdom is something solid that can be jumped upon, or something smoky that you run through. And so Proverbs says, "Wisdom always prevails."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, and Ecclesiastes says, "Let me test that." And he's like, "I tested it. I know the Proverbs. See, look, I even wrote some. And let me tell you something, it doesn't always work out the way you want it to."
Seth: Right.
David: You know, he's just, he's throwing Proverbs up against the wall in a fallen world and seeing what sticks. And what he finds out is that nothing actually always sticks.
Seth: Right.
David: And that's, that's the problem that Ecclesiastes is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is showing. He's, he's showing that, like, yes, Proverbs is showing the way of Eden, but we don't live in Eden anymore. [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... and so he's like, every now and then you stumble into it, and you can create little Edens, uh, but, like, it just doesn't work that way sometimes.
Seth: That's helpful.
David: And so, um, we've kind of framed this section. Uh, I think we can wrap up this section and dive into a couple other, or, or kind of, uh, a couple of the unmet expectation texts within these, these two bookends. Before we do, I wanna jump back to something you said about king- like, the kingly Jesus being this, like, saying these texts to us.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And I would just, uh, I would just, like, wanna tap against that a little bit, and, and, and be like, there are a lot of things in here that Jesus wouldn't say. [laughs]
Seth: S- give me an example.
David: Well, I, I don't think Jesus would say some of the things we read, uh, in chapter-
Seth: "This is an evil under the sun." [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah. "This is an, this is an evil thing God has given to man." I'm like, uh, I don't know if Jesus would say it exactly like that. I also don't know if Jesus would say things like we're going to read here very soon, in Ecclesiastes 3, uh, 18. "I said to myself, as, as for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like animals."
Seth: [laughs]
David: "Surely the fate of human beings is like that of animals, and both await the same fate." And I'm like, Jesus talked about eternal life and resurrection.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And I just don't think they have the same fatherly advice to give, because he came from above the sun and didn't limit himself to under the sun. And so I think that's the good news Jesus brings, is that into a life that's fixed on hevel and can't see past it, Jesus comes and says, "Let me show you what is beyond the grave. Let me show you what is a meaningful life. Let me show you how to die to yourself, to live to me." Like, Jesus came and brought a, um, a perfect blending of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, because he, he brought the justice of God and the wisdom of God, and said, "Follow me like you would follow Lady Folly." But he did that inside a fallen world that required his death. Like, he had to taste the fruit of the fall in order to bring us the, the tree of life, of wisdom. And, and so I think, I think Jesus comes as, like, the perfect embodiment of both Qohelet and the author of Proverbs. [gentle music] Okay, so the very first thing we come up- we come upon, the first topic we come upon after the, uh, bookended statement of whatever i- is, has already been, uh, and God will cause all things to come into account, um, we get this saying in 16 of, uh, chapter three. "And I saw something else under the sun." What is it, Qohelet? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: He says, "In the place-"
Seth: More hevel. [laughs]
David: More hevel. "In the place of judgment, wickedness was there. In the place of justice, wickedness was there." And so he's saying, "I, I looked at the place where there was supposed to be good judgment." So, like, a court.
Seth: Yes.
David: "I looked at a place where justice was supposed to be doled out in good sentence." Um, you know, like a police-
Seth: And there wasn't
David: ... a police station.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or, like, uh, y- yeah, any, I mean, even, like, at a, like, from a parent to a child. Anywhere where judgment and justice were supposed to be done, i- whether the high places of the land or the low, I looked, and it's not that injustice or a lack of judgment were there.
Seth: Yeah, he doesn't say that.
David: It's wickedness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Wickedness was there in those places. And, um, man, I'm just like, it's, it's what? It's July 1st, 2020, and we are in the middle of the Black Lives Matter movement resurgence because of so much police brutality.
Seth: Yep.
David: And this is such a, um, I mean, a moment of, of... It'd be like, I, I l- we look to these places-
Seth: We look to these places of justice
David: ... of justice and judgment, and what do we see?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Wickedness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, that's depressing. [laughs]
Seth: That's depressing.
David: Yeah. And it's like you-
Seth: And it's like d-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, and that's not the way it should be.
David: No.
Seth: And, but that's the way that it always is.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's, always has been.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and that's what Ho- Qohelet's pointing out. Like, this is the way, on the earth, outside of Eden, justice works. Where there's supposed to be justice, wickedness reigns.
David: Yeah. Now, is he saying that there has never been a good judge or never been a good ruler? No.
Seth: No.
David: Or that there's never any good cops? No, of course not.His dad, if this is Solomon, was David, or if not, he at least comes from the line of David-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and knows that David did good, and even Solomon had, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... had some moments of wise rulership. But like-
Seth: But the, like, the arc of history-
David: Yes, there we go
Seth: ... does not bend towards justice-
David: No
Seth: ... as Martin Luther King, like, said.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, Dr. Martin Luther King said.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like it bends towards injustice.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, it bends towards wickedness.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then he says another thing, verse 17.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I said in my heart, 'God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and every work.'" So I, I th- so one thing that he's doing is he, he brings up this idea of judgment-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... throughout the Book of Ecclesiastes. You just said it. God will bring to account the past.
David: Yes.
Seth: He says it again here. "I said in my heart, 'God will judge the righteous and the wicked.'" The concluding verse of the Book of Ecclesiastes is, "God will judge and bring every secret thing to account." Like, that's the hope and good news of Ecclesiastes.
David: That is the hope, yes.
Seth: That God will judge injustice and reward righteousness. That's the hope of Ecclesiastes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But here, for there's a time and matter for every work, is what he's saying is, like, there's a time for injustice to reign and for justice to reign, and that we're in a, currently watching a time that God has allotted for injustice? Like, what is that? Is that basically-
David: Oh, no, I think he's pulling on everything he just set up in 1 to 15. He's us- he- he's, he's using this language of, "There's a time for this and a time for that," to, to remind us of this whole point he just made that God has set times in place-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we don't know when they are. So what he's pulling on here, he's like, "I know that there are places of judgment and justice that are full of wickedness, but God will call all things into account."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "However, we don't know when that will be."
Seth: So it's just like-
David: "There's a time for it, but we don't know when it is."
Seth: So it's like there is a day of justice coming-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where wickedness will be overturned, but we don't know when the Lord is coming back.
David: Yes. Even Jesus himself while he was on Earth, you know, the, uh-
Seth: Yep
David: ... he was asked about when his return would happen, and he's like, "Only God knows. I don't know the day or the hour." You know, and so, like, this is very similar. We- he just doesn't know. Um-
Seth: So the next verse then, so I-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so I don't know when that day of ju- justice and wickedness will be overturned. "So I said in my heart with regard to the children of men that God is testing them, that they may see that they themselves are but beasts, animals." [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: What happens-
David: Yeah, and then he talks about how the same fate, uh, like, uh, waits for them both, because, like, you know, dogs die and grandmas die, you know, [laughs] like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like-
Seth: They all, they all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts because everything is vanity. Everything is hevel.
David: Yes.
Seth: Everything is wind.
David: And so the wrong thing to do here is what a lot of people do, which is say, "So does he just not believe in an afterlife or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... an immortal soul or a final resurrection?" And it's like, no.
Seth: And just to drive-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that point home, verse 21, "Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upwards-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth? So what I saw, there is nothing better than that man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot."
David: Right.
Seth: "Because who can see what will be after him?"
David: Right. So what he's saying, he, he's, he's not saying that he believes-
Seth: Doesn't
David: ... that there is no afterlife. That's not what he's saying. He's saying, "I can't prove to you that there is an afterlife."
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? If you just look, everything dies, and, like, and that's just the point.
Seth: The destination for all bodies-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all breathing things, is death.
David: That's right.
Seth: And you don't know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... whether there's an afterlife or not. You-
David: That's right
Seth: ... I can't prove it to you. Right.
David: Yep. He just has, he, he just, he's... And, and in classic Qohelet style, he is chastening his own statement of faith. He's like, "I know that God will bring to judgment the righteous and the wicked."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "But let me go back under the sun."
Seth: I can't prove it to you.
David: "Everyone dies and goes to the same place. I can't prove it to you."
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. Exactly.
Seth: So why? Why does he do that?
David: I think it's because that, like, I, I think he's, I think he, I think throughout the Book of Ecclesiastes, he is trying to uphold his initial experiment, which is to, um, see if he can find what would profit man if he only limited his experiment to the things that he could observe under the sun. And, and yet every now and then, he's a God-fearing man, and so he has to let the light shine in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and give you a little hope, or else this would not be a helpful book, [laughs] you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he, he lets that come in, but then always chastens it, because he is, he's trying to prove a point that I kn- I know that it's true because I've read the Torah, like, that God will judge the righteous and the wicked. But when I look-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... out in the world, it doesn't seem like that. Because if he didn't, if he-
Seth: As unbiased of an experimenter as he's trying to be, like, he can't-
David: Yes
Seth: ... really be one, because he loves Yahweh.
David: Yes.
Seth: He fears the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He knows that God will come and judge, and he... But what he's trying to do is to... Here's, this might be helpful. Uh, so I've been a youth pastor for almost a decade.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I meet a lot of teenagers who inherit their faith from their parents uncritically. They, and they go through life really optimistic, never face any real challenges to their faith, and just accept everything as given. "Well, God will judge. It's gonna be fine." And there's this kind of naivety, naïveté-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... that comes with that type of faith that I find myself embodying Qohelet with. "No, no, no, don't you... Like, okay then, you believe that God is real. Prove it to me."
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like, "Give me evidence that God is real." And what happens? They've never been asked that question before, 'cause all their friends are Christians. Their parents wanna protect them from doubt and disbelief, so they never teach them about, like, objections to Christianity.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so I just push on them a little bit and say, "Hey, hey, why, how can God be good and suffering exist?"
David: Right.
Seth: And they fall over.
David: Right.
Seth: And so, like, what I found my job often was to, like, be Qohelet to my naive students-
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
Seth: ... and push on all their expectations that everything's gonna turn up roses, that their life is always gonna be the pro- Book of Proverbs always, and say, "No, no, no, no. Well, how do you know that there's an afterlife? Prove it to me."
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: "By this book? Well, I don't believe that book."To, to, like, so, so tell me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, tell, I, I do believe that book, but like-
David: Right, but you're playing devil's advocate
Seth: ... embodying skeptical Seth for a second. Like, well, like, I don't believe that book. Why would I believe that there's an eternal, like, an afterlife? And they can't answer.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's like I found... And so maybe another way to think about Qohelet is he's doing that. Like, there's these na- like, there's a naivety to the faith of Israel or to the faith of his son, or just to the faith of his audience, and he's saying, "Let me push on that for a second and show you that you need answers to these things."
David: Yeah. I think that's helpful. I think another, uh, I think that's absolutely happening. I think the other side of what's happening is that he is try- he, he would lose all credibility, um, for his, uh, for, like, who he is and what he's set out to do if he did not chasten, or, or if he, like, if he made such a big statement about God's final justice and didn't immediately chasten it with a pragmatic, cynical view of the world. Like, the, the, he, he is trying to show the world that they cannot find meaning only under the sun.
Seth: Mm.
David: And if he just all of a sudden was like, "But God will judge it all," and then moving on-
Seth: Right, right, right, right
David: ... he would lose credibility as the cynic.
Seth: That's fascinating. So it's like-
David: And so he has to go back and say, like, now, I know observationally it looks like everyone's gonna die and no one is held into account, that, you know, Hitler killed, you know, killed himself in a bunker, and he escaped jus- justice. Like, I know that's what it looks like, but I promise there is a day coming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he's, like, he's stating the observable and the faith.
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's, that's, 'cause without doing that, he can't speak both to the world-weary and the naive.
David: Right.
Seth: So we talked about, like, the two, like, poles that you can read Ecclesiastes to is either, like, optimism or nihilism.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the, you wanna read them either way. But Qohelet's structured in such a way that, like, no, no, no, the naive's assumptions about the way that life should be are constantly being pressed down.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the world-weary are saying, "No, no, no, there's something better above the sun."
David: Right.
Seth: Like, "I see your pain, and there's something better above the sun."
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's super fascinating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if he wrote it any other way, he couldn't speak to both those audiences.
David: That's right. Yep, he would alienate one. Yep.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: It's interesting. So kind of keeping up with the theme of justice here, um, he talks about how, you know, if, if you look out into the world and you see that the poor are oppressed and that there's wicked people in places of power, he doesn't say, like, "That's a novel thing." [laughs]
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: He says, "Don't be surprised when you see this."
Seth: That's true.
David: Which, like, is such-
Seth: Verse, uh, 5:8
David: ... for me, is such good news. 5:8.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: 5:8, yeah, yeah.
David: So, like, that's such good news to me because, like, every day I feel like I come home and my wife says, like, "Did you see, you know, what, you know, X world leader did?" You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or, "Have you heard about what bill a local governor passed?" You know, and it's something horrendous that oppresses people and favors the people in power at, at the expense of those who are marginalized.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and I just find myself being like, "Yep, that sounds about right." Like, [laughs] that-
Seth: Right
David: ... that sounds like the wicked world we live in. I'm not like, "Wait, he did what?" [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? Like, the news is not surprising to me right now. Um, and I think a big part of that is because of this book. Like, I've just, I just know-
Seth: Right
David: ... that the world leaders are by and large going to be wicked. And so I think, like, one, that shouldn't surprise me, and thus end my, my hope in the world or my hope in God, and be like, "Oh, never mind. We're going to hell-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a hand basket. Give up hope. Abandon ship."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not, and I think it should also breed a healthy skepticism of worldly leadership, that we sh- that we should not implicitly trust the justice systems that the world is able to contrive, but to frame our view of justice through the, through the lens of scripture-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and let God be the judge.
Seth: Yes. No, that's good. I think that's good.
David: So justice.
Seth: Justice. Uh-
David: So I, I think we have to talk about then is how does Jesus bring better justice than Qohelet was able to see here in this moment, or that he w- or than the wor- than the justice that we experience by and large in the world, right?
Seth: I keep rereading a line, and this is Ecclesiastes 4, "Again, I saw the oppressions that are done under the sun, and behold the tears of the oppressed, and they had no one to comfort them."
David: Oh, man.
Seth: I know. The tears of the oppressed. And so I, I mean, the very basic turn here is that Jesus sees the tears of the oppressed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus comforts those that are oppressed by the broken systems of our world. I mean, it's really sim- it's really simple-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but it's also true. Jesus is close to the brokenhearted.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's bi- he, he is near to and binds up the brokenhearted. Where, where is that in the Bible? I forget. [laughs]
David: [laughs] You can Google it. Um, yeah, absolutely right. And, like, n- I mean, we're gonna go out of order here of the Biblical narrative, but I mean, we're told that when Jesus returns, in Revelation 21, we're told when he returns, he will wipe away the tears from our eyes, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And [laughs] like, we won't cry anymore.
Seth: Yes.
David: The, the tears of the oppressed will turn into shouts of joy in the presence of Jesus when he returns. And, like, that return of Jesus will be the time that Qohelet is talking about, that he doesn't know when it's going to be. It will be the time when we see that animals and humans are not the same. It's the time that we're going to see that the righteous and the wicked are judged perfectly. And what Jesus will do is two things. He will, on the one hand, um, look at those who have put their faith in him and have hidden themselves in him, alle- uh, given him their allegiance and trust. And w- he will look at them, and they will know that they deserve death, that they deserve judgment and justice. And in that moment when Jesus looks at me, I often think about this day. I will immediately rehearse every sin I've ever committed-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whether cognizant or subconscious. I will see the, the ways I accidentally hurt people. I'll see the ways that my buying decisions in stores hurt, hurt people through the, our complicated world economy, and sweatshops, and, you know, uh, like, um, mines in Africa where they mine our technology equipment. And, like, I'll, I'll realize the sin of my iPhone was worse than I thought it was. All these things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'll know that I deserve death and separation from him, and I will look at him, and I'll know that it would be good for him to give it to me, 'cause I'm like, "Yes, enact justice, Lord. You deserve that. Please bring that. It would be good for you to do it." Yet in that moment, he will show me the cross, and he will be like, "All of that that you need to be put on you and that you know you deserve, I already dealt with fully and perfectly on the cross for you. Full justice was enacted on me."
Seth: Yes
David: But then there's another group of people who have not put their trust in Jesus and have committed all the same atrocities I've committed and, you know, and others.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and their justice will be dealt upon their own heads because it was not, they did not trust Jesus to take that judgment on himself.
Seth: Um, Jesus, "I will bind up the broken-hearted," is-
David: Oh, you found it
Seth: ... Psalm 34.
David: Psalm 34.
Seth: And it's actually, it's a Psalm of David.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I mean, again, like this-
David: There you go
Seth: ... could be a Sol- a Solomonic rebuke or a addendum to his father.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he says, "I sought the Lord and He answered me. He delivered me from all my fears. Those who look to Him are radiant and their faces are never covered in shame. The poor man called, the poor man called, and the Lord heard him and He saved him out of his troubles. The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and He delivers them. Taste and see that the Lord is good. Blessed is he who takes refuge in Him."
David: Mm.
Seth: And he goes on to talk about, uh, binding up the brokenhearted, and then, uh, he says this, uh, at the very end, "Evil will slay the wicked. The foes of the righteous will be condemned. The Lord will rescue His servants. No one who takes refuge in Him will be condemned."
David: Mm.
Seth: It's both sides of the same coin you're talking about.
David: Yes.
Seth: "The Lord hears the tears, sees the tears of the brokenhearted. He will bring justice. He will comfort them and bring justice for them. He will allow them to taste and see that the Lord is good." Which I think is fascinating that David talks about tasting and seeing far more often than right here.
David: Mm.
Seth: In one of the, the pieces of advice from Solomon, or from Qohelet, is to eat and to drink-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like as we are on this earth, and God will also slay the wicked. The foes of the righteous, the foes of the poor will be condemned, and the Lord will rescue his servants from injustice.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that's the hope of the Old Testament.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's fulfilled in Jesus, and Qohelet's kind of throwing it up against the wall and saying, "It's not happening all the time."
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And what it should ha- it should make us do is long for it to happen.
David: Yes.
Seth: It should make us long for Psalm 34 to be true. So let, even, like, less than a rebuke of his father, it's almost as if he wants us to grow, go back-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and see the hope of his father in Psalm 34.
David: Right. By showing us the, the hevel of the other option.
Seth: Yes. Yeah.
David: That if, if the courts are full of wickedness and everyone equally dies, what's the point?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, there is no justice. He's like, "Unless Psalm 34 is true." [laughs]
Seth: Unless Psalm 34. So go read that again-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and worship that Lord. Yeah.
David: Yeah, it's so good.
Seth: Uh, so yeah.
David: Yeah, I mean, I just love that, that picture of Jesus being the ultimate judge who fixes, um, all of this wickedness in, um, in, in the places of judgment and justice. It's just, it's such a great picture, and that he does it at great personal expense to himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That he fixes justice by taking justice on himself, you know? Like, it's just, it's a beautiful... It's my, it's like one of my favorite ways to process the gospel.
Seth: He fixes justice by placing judge- judgment on himself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep. Because I think that's the, the heart of injustice is, um, is, is judging, is like, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... taking it out on those who don't deserve it to preserve yourself, right?
Seth: Like, injustice is judging other people for your selfish desires and motivations.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I wanna get ahead in life-
David: Right
Seth: ... and so I judge you as less worthy than me.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, therefore, I will, I will make your life miserable to make my life better.
David: Yep, and Jesus did the exact opposite of that.
Seth: Jesus does not count, uh, his desires as more significant than others.
David: Mm-hmm. He elevates to-
Seth: He elevates other people's goals, desires, just- hopes for justice and flourishing, and says, "Those are more important. In order for you to achieve that, I will become like the one crushed by injustice-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so that you may experience true justice through my death."
David: Mm, so good. All right. Well, let's move on to one last section and talk about what is probably the most r- talked about theme in these, uh, three chapters, which is, uh, the unmet expectations of wealth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, so we'll jump into that.
Seth: Okay. [gentle music] Okay. So Qohelet kind of s- shifts topics from w- uh, injustice to a related topic, wealth.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, it's al- almost very rarely do you have injustice without money. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: So, like, they're related topics.
David: Yeah, that's true.
Seth: Uh, but the way that he begins talking about the way that wealth and work don't satisfy is found in Ecclesiastes 4:4. "Then I saw that all toil and all skill in work come from a man's envy of his neighbor. This also is a vanity and a striving after wind." He says the underlying motivation for-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the reason we work hard is because we wanna keep up with the Joneses. Like, that's really-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... at the heart of human ambition and progress is, and work-
David: Mm
Seth: ... trying to do better and to have what somebody else has. The grass is greener syndrome-
David: Right
Seth: ... rules the work, the place of work-
David: Mm
Seth: ... income, and money, and that's his, like, opening salvo-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on [laughs] his, like, new section on wealth and money.
David: As a wise man once said-
Seth: He ain't wrong
David: ... he ain't wrong. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] What wise man is that again?
David: I don't know.
Seth: Just some man. [laughs] John Wayne.
David: John Wayne or something. I, [laughs] I don't have a clue. But yeah, it's true. Um, w- and it's, it's, it's sobering, and I think we want to be the exception to this rule, um, that, "No, I'm not motivated by envy, and every decision I've made has been altruistic or self-motivated."
Seth: Right.
David: Or, you know, like, and it's like, no, why do you want what, why do you want to have what everyone else has?
Seth: Why do you got iPhone 12? Why?
David: Why do you want-
Seth: Really?
David: Yeah.Well, 'cause it's newer-
Seth: Are you sure?
David: It's cool and-
Seth: Or is it just 'cause T- Tom Cruise is like... [laughs]
David: I mean, I guess I don't... I guess I, I don't need it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And it's, it's so true. And, um, and a- anyway... And so what then, what, what he then does after that is basically forces you to look at the end of your striving after the wind-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... envy. And he, he tries to get you to see how pointless it is. Like, he's, he gets... He basically is like, "It's, you know, everything's based on envy and it's chasing after the wind. You don't believe me? Let me show you some examples-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of what this looks like."
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: So can we look at some of them?
Seth: Um, he goes on before even... It, it's, it's weird. Qoheleth does that thing where he starts doing disconnected proverbs. So he mo- he so he moves on-
David: What? [laughs]
Seth: ... from, he kind of gives you this hint about envy and work and money, and then he goes on to the fool folds his hands and eats his own flesh, and then he talks about, like, the benefits of partnership with w- somebody else, which I think is interesting. Um, it's worth reading. But really it kicks back up again, this theme, in verse 13. "Better was a poor and wise youth than an old and foolish king who no longer knew how to take advice." Um, I think, I was wondering if he's, like, commenting on his own life. You-
David: Yeah, it's hard not to think that he, he isn't
Seth: He went to prison
David: ... that he is this-
Seth: From prison to a throne. [laughs]
David: Yeah, that he... Or that, well, or that he is this old, foolish king-
Seth: Right
David: ... who can no longer-
Seth: Yes
David: ... heed his own warnings. Like, that he, especially if this was Solomon, that he's this wise man who knows how to articulate everything that's wrong in the world, but can't heed it himself, and he keeps chasing after the wind even though he knows-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's pointless.
Seth: And even at-
David: Yeah. I just, I can't help but think that he is this old, wise king hoping that his young s- wise son will be-
Seth: Right
David: ... better than him.
Seth: I th- I think you're exactly right. I, I mean, it could, I mean, it could be-
David: Which is, which is sad, because if it was Solomon, historically speaking-
Seth: It didn't work out for him
David: ... it didn't work out. [laughs]
Seth: I mean, it could be Joseph. Joseph went from a prison to a throne, and he-
David: Yeah, he could be, or he could be reflecting on Joseph
Seth: ... he could be ref- well, that's what I meant, like refle- he could even be reflecting on his own father.
David: Oh, yeah, okay.
Seth: I mean, his father was in exile in caves and then became a king.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: And then he says this in 15: "I saw all the living who move about under the sun, along with that one youth that was poor and wise who is to stand in the king's place. And there's no end to all the people, all of whom this foolish king led, yet those who come later will not rejoice in him. Surely, this also is vanity and striving after the wind." One of the ways that we can work is by improving the scope of our leadership, the number of people that submit and report to us. A king can look over-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the land and see everybody bows to him, but nobody will remember him. Fool, like no, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... it's, nobody will remember him.
David: Yep. I- I- yeah, as soon as he's gone, they, they bow to the next successor.
Seth: Why do you think the wise and poor boy is highlighted here? Is it because, like, he will be surprised if he's elevated? Is it because he is not going to, like, hope that his leadership as a king will cause him to be remembered? Like, as a king, you're always gonna be frustrated by the fact that you, your legacy won't survive. But if you're poor and wise, you'll be content with-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the lot that you've been given. Like, what's-
David: Well, I think there's two, so I think there's two things happening. Uh, and I think the first is highlighted by some of the stuff we skimmed over to get here, which was, it's all these proverbial dichotomies which talk about, like, there's a poor man who folds his hands.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? So, like, he doesn't work, and he ends up eating his own flesh. So, like, he, you know, he, he ends up, like-
Seth: Yeah, a foolish man, yeah
David: ... starving to death, basically. Right? But then there's, but then there's the other side of that who he fills both his hands with toil, so he's not, he's not folding his hands. He's filling both, both his hands up with as much work as he can possibly do, but he can't even-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... enjoy what he's doing. And so he's like, there is two extremes in this world, either the nihilistic lazy person who ends up-
Seth: Who uses none of his hands
David: ... starving to death, and-
Seth: Or... [laughs]
David: Right. And then, yeah, then the other person who uses everything at their disposal but is so busy running around trying to do everything that they can't even enjoy-
Seth: But better is a-
David: ... what they're doing
Seth: ... handful of quietness-
David: And, yep
Seth: ... and a h- and one handful-
David: One handful
Seth: ... of work.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that middle road is the way to wisdom. Like, there's wisdom in the middle road-
David: Yes
Seth: ... between doing-
David: Right
Seth: ... everything you can to secure for yourself wealth-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or fame or a legacy, and doing nothing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... at all because everything is pointless. There's like... Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so I think, I think he's pulling on that a little bit here, is that he has two, uh, dichotomized people in this-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... king story. You have this old, foolish king who can't heed warnings anymore. He... and you can kind of picture this, like, this happy, you know, king sitting in his throne with all the food he wants and doing everything he wants. He's Qoheleth sitting on the throne, pursuing pleasure all he wants, and he's, he's, he's not happy. And so you have this other humble, uh, you know, like, you know, uh, what's the s-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... salt of the earth kind of guy coming up, and he takes the throne, and people love him. Everyone, everyone who wa- everyone who lived under the sun followed that young man, and he was so popular, but then even he passed away, and no one-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... no one remembered him. And so it's like, it doesn't matter [laughs] is what he's saying. He's like, "If you're an old, foolish king or a young, popular one, eventually-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it just doesn't matter." It, and so I think he's again talking about, so it's probably better to be like a, you know, like a chill surf.
Seth: Chill surf. [laughs]
David: You know? A- and just hang out and, and work in the field-
Seth: Well, it goes back to like the-
David: ... is probably what he would say
Seth: ... the good advi- the advice that he gives over and over and over again, which we haven't gotten to yet in this section. But, uh, every, uh, so this is chapter five, verse, uh, uh, 18: "Behold, what I've seen to be good and fitting is to eat and drink and find enjoyment in all the toil-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which one toils under the sun for the few days of his life [laughs] that God has given for him, for hi-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... this is his lot." Uh, and so the i- I think part of the wisdom there is that you could spend your life trying to figure out the way that eating and drinking the best food and the best wine and the best workWill satisfy you, and it won't
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You could do nothing-
David: Nope
Seth: ... and you're just gonna d- you're gonna starve to death. The middle road, the wise road, is to, with one hand, grab a hold of ambition, with one hand, grab a hold of good hard work-
David: Rest
Seth: ... and one hand-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... grab a hold of rest, and live there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That is the Eden, uh, in a fallen world.
David: Yeah. Or, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yeah, th- yes. Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Eden, Eden in a fallen world. Right. So I think that's one-
Seth: Right
David: ... one point he's making here. I think the other way to view it kinda goes back to the beginning with the nature metaphors that Ecclesiastes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... starts with, about just the cyclical pointlessness of life, that you have an, an old king-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who used to be wise and he's become foolish, can no longer heed warnings, which means he used to be able to heed them. So at one time, he was a young, wise king who grew up, was callous-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... misled his people. So that required another young, wise king to rise up, who will take his place and will not be remembered, who will cause another w- wise king to rise up.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and it's just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's pointless. It's this cy- it, the, the river rushes to its place, and yet the lake is never full.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, that's what's happening here, is just, it's like the... And, and, and if we read this especially in the frame of riches and justice, it seems that even the kings of this earth, which would be the highest point of that, uh, to which our envy could take us, are not-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... satisfied. So that's the riches side. And then also, that the kings of this earth that end up ruling end up always having to be deposed because they're not doing justice-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... correctly. And so they're foolish and can't heed warnings, so we need a wise one to take their place, but then that one can't heed warnings, so we need another wise one to take its place, but then that one gets corrupt.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, or assassinated or whatever happens. And it's like, we can't do justice right and we can't pursue wealth right. We just can't do anything right. Even in the, even in the places of power where it seems most prominent and available, even those places, those seats of power, the presidency of the United States, the throne of England, all these places will inevitably fail.
Seth: And even if we were able to grab a hold of wealth, let's just say for the sake... And Qohelet does this. He says, "Let's for the sake of our argument-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... say we can grab a hold of wealth by some means." The verse 13-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of chapter five, "There is a grievous evil that I have seen under the sun. Riches were kept by their owner to his own hurt, and those riches were lost-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... in a bad venture. And he is a father of a son, but he has nothing in his hand." So sometimes we can-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... grab a hold of the wealth, and for a time, and then we lose it in a bad investment and we have nothing to pass on to our son. And then he says, "Let me imagine another scenario." Chapter six, "A man to whom God gives wealth, possessions and honor so that he lacks nothing of all that he desires, and yet G- God does not give him power to enjoy them, but a stranger enjoys them instead." So it's like-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... you have everything you could possibly want, but the only people that enjoy it are not you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I, I-
David: Yep. It, it reminds me of like, uh-
Seth: Tony Stark
David: ... um-
Seth: He's like, he throws-
David: Oh, yep. Yeah, there you go
Seth: ... I, I'm watching Iron Man with my kids [laughs] right now. Like, he has-
David: Yep
Seth: ... all this money, all this wealth, all of this power, and it's not satisfying to him. The-
David: Right. But people, pe- he throws big, big parties that aren't satisfying to him, but people come-
Seth: People are having a great time
David: ... and they're having a good time.
Seth: And he's just getting drunk in his Iron Man suit. [laughs] Like, like that's like, that's-
David: That's the-
Seth: That's the hevel. Like, he has all this wealth-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but he can't enjoy it. Um, he has everything he could ever want, but wealth doesn't deliver what it promised to him, or he hoped it could.
David: Right. Yep. And so, I mean, what... So I mean, l- let's answer this question. What is Qohelet getting at here? And then how, and then what does, like what does the gospel have to say about this, I think are the two questions-
Seth: Yes, mm-hmm
David: ... I want to answer when, when it comes to wealth. So what is Qohelet getting at here? I mean, the simplest answer is that riches are-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not gonna satisfy you, and that it's better to just be a laborer and, like, do hard work, and you can eat a little or much. This is, I'm reading Ecclesiastes 5:12. "The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether they eat little or much. But as for the rich, their abundance permits them no sleep."
Seth: The more you have, the more worried you are about losing it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The more money you have invested in the stock market-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... the more frustrated you are when-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the economy crashes. But if you're just-
David: Right
Seth: ... working paycheck to paycheck, there's actually a lot of peace that comes from that. There is stress, lots of stress.
David: Right. There's stress.
Seth: But there's also a peace-
David: Right
Seth: ... in knowing that your money is in your control and directly related to how much you can work. Yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: I think verse seven-
David: And so I just think, like, yeah
Seth: ... six, seven.
David: Okay.
Seth: "All the toil of man is for his mouth, and yet his appetite is not satisfied." Under the sun-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there, we believe in this formula: I exist to eat, and I eat, and I'm never satisfied. Like, under the sun, like that's all-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there is. I exist to fulfill my desires, and they are never met. That's life under the sun.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um-
David: Right
Seth: ... and I think that's the main point. Like, I ex- like, we believe-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we exist to fulfill our desires, and they're always unmet.
David: Right.
Seth: So what does that tell us-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... about life? And I think Qohelet would tell us that means that's not all there is to life. Jesus would tell us-
David: Right
Seth: ... "Man must not live by bread alone, work alone, wealth alone-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but every word-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Which is why I think in the middle of all this section about the hevel and-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... vanity of wealth and everything, you have chapter 5 verse 1 through 7. And I think this is a little fascinating inclusion because-
David: It's very disjoint... It, it feels very disruptive
Seth: ... it feels dis- more disruptive than the partnership p- proverb or anything else, in part-
David: Yes
Seth: ... because the audience changes. Q-
David: Right, the pronoun that he uses changes
Seth: ... the pronoun. He, he, instead of just describing the world that he sees, he starts making directive you statements. "Guard your steps when you go into the house of God. When you vow a vow to God. When you see a province." It's almost as if, like, the author of Qohelet has this-... audience within an audience in mind. And that's why-
David: In mind, yeah
Seth: ... that's goes back to the son thing. That's why it could potentially be a father. Say, "Okay, you see all the hevel? Let me cut through it all, son, and let me get to the heart of the matter. Fear God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and keep His commandments. That is the whole duty-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of man." Which goes exactly to what Jesus says, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."
David: Mm.
Seth: If you believe life is a formula from, "I exist to ful- fulfill my desires," you will always be-
David: Right
Seth: ... dissatisfied under the sun. The only solution-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to that is to remember that you were meant for more than your appetites. You were meant to live for God. Your duty is to God and to His law. That is what brings-
David: Okay
Seth: ... satisfaction. That is where you find meaning in life.
David: I think... Okay.
Seth: Yes.
David: I think I'm following you. So let me repeat something to you and see if I'm-
Seth: Yes
David: ... if I'm tracking here. Uh, 'cause I think I'm seeing Ecclesiastes 5:1-7, uh, like I've never seen it before. So let me, let me process here. So there's these... It's, it's surrounded by wealth sections.
Seth: Yes.
David: How wealth will never satisfy, right? And how justice is fleeting, and it's surrounded by these things, and it, it interrupts them without any kind of connective tissue at all.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just plopped in. And so we're thinking about how I have all these desires that need to be met, and I have hungers that I'm looking to be met under the sun. They're not going to be met, and my whole life, no matter what I do, will be pointless, and I'll, I will be unremembered whether I'm the king of the world or the poorest man who's ever lived. It's all pointless. So where do I turn? Well, I would just be thinking, I... Well, then I won't give my life to those things. I'll give my life-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to God, and I'll run into the temple, and I'm gonna run into the temple and I'm gonna commit-
Seth: Yes
David: ... myself to God. And I say, "God, you can have it all." And then strangely, though, I get corrected by him for this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... assumption, and he says, "Guard your steps when you go into the house of God, and don't make a hasty vow." Like, it's better just to go in and listen than to make a hasty vow that you give everything you have to God and then not be able to fulfill it.
Seth: I will go to church every Sunday-
David: So-
Seth: ... if you just give me what I want, God.
David: Yeah. It's like, "No, no, no, don't do that because..." [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, okay. Oh, that's not how I was... You might be closer to it there. That's better. I was thinking it was this, uh, pious movement.
Seth: Right. It could be. Yeah.
David: But what you're s- it could be, but I think it makes, it makes more sense with the context that it's like, okay, I have a loophole for you here, Qohelet. If I can't work for everything that would bring me satisfaction, you know, and, and finally be satisfied, then God-
Seth: Right
David: ... could give it to me, and that's often what vows would do, especially corrupt ones. They would go in and be like, "God, I will do X, Y, Z for you-
Seth: Right
David: ... if you do this for me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Quid pro quo.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Right? [laughs] Yeah, and he's like, "Don't be an idiot."
Seth: "Don't do that."
David: "Guard... Don't do that. Guard your steps. That's..."
Seth: Yeah, like if you-
David: "God's not one to be trifled with."
Seth: ... you go into the temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... of God and promise him something, he's gonna expect it from you. Uh, which is kind of goes back-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to Leviticus and Deuteronomy, where there's all these commands about rash vows and, like, the proper way to make a vow-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to the Lord. [gasps]
David: Yep, and they always came after really intense moments of, um-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... judgment from God, where it was like, like, "Oh man, I don't want that to happen to me," or like, "I wanna be better than everyone else," or, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "I wanna recover from this horrible situation, so I'll go make a rash vow of something ridiculous and hope God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... meets me on the other side." And it's like, whoa, slow down. Don't do something you're gonna regret because you're gonna overpromise.
Seth: But I like what you said as well about, like, if you're recognizing that all this is hevel, the world around you is hevel, you can run naively to God and just expect-
David: To God. Yeah
Seth: ... your piousness to be what saves you from it. But he's saying, "No, no, no."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Don't do that. Fear the Lord, sit at His feet, and listen." And that ties really well with something we'll get to in Ecclesiastes 7, and this is 7:16. "Do not be overly righteous, and do not make-
David: Right
Seth: ... yourself too wise." The idea is that we can pursue holiness in such a way that it becomes corrupt, like the Pharisees did in the New Testament.
David: Yes.
Seth: You can pursue wisdom in such a way that you're just a dry, arid philosopher, and it becomes too much.
David: Mm.
Seth: Don't do that.
David: Yeah. I mean, you can pursue wisdom in the same way you pursue riches or religion the same way you pursue wealth, right? Um, uh, or, uh, or Chris-
Seth: Yes
David: ... or, like, or religion the same way you, you pursue riches. Um, and, and it, and it also comes from envy.
Seth: Yeah. You can pursue-
David: I wanna be as holy, I wanna be as holy-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as that person, or I, I could-
Seth: Thank God I'm not like that-
David: ... I could live as, as pure of a life
Seth: ... tax collector over there. Right.
David: Right.
Seth: Yes.
David: Envy. Envy.
Seth: So the idea is-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we can use not just money, wealth, and sex to satisfy us. We can use a form of morality to satisfy us, and-
David: That's good
Seth: ... it won't. The solution-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is to fear God and to keep His commandments.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That is the solution to life under the sun. Not to, like, spread yourself too thin, try to fill an appetite, whether with morality, sex, or power, but fear God and to keep His commandments. I think, I think the best way-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to sum this up-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in how Jesus speaks to this moment is in Matthew 6:19-21. Place your treasures in heaven. Don't build for yourself up-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... on Earth, mansions, homes, stockhouses full of wealth. Place your treasures in heaven because there, moths can't get to them, thieves can't destroy them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're not, they're not, um, liable to the stock market. Just- injustice-
David: Right
Seth: ... can't take them. In heaven, when we fear God and keep His commands, our treasures are eternally secure, and we can bank it there.
David: Right. And it's like, you know, Qohelet talks about in these passages how, uh, you know, naked you came into this world and naked you will return. You know, you're gonna go to the grave empty-handed no matter how much you had. You know, how no, no matter how-
Seth: Yeah, yeah [laughs]
David: ... fancy your coffin is. You know, whether it's a, whether it's a wooden casket or one of the, the, the, the Tombs of the Pharaohs in the Great Pyramids, you know, you can't take it with you. And, uh, yeah, I think Jesus is like, "There is... But there is an eternal place-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to bank your treasure." Yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's such good news.
Seth: There's an et- and-
David: I, I love that
Seth: ... so in all this about money and wealth, there's an eternal place to put your treasures-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where you will always be, um, rewarded proportionally to your effort. On the Earth, you're never rewarded-
David: Mm
Seth: ... proportionally to your effort.
David: Oh.
Seth: Right? Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it's always hamstrung-
David: Right, right
Seth: ... by something. Either it's given away to somebody else, or your leadership is forgotten, or your legacy never s- arrives. Like, but in Heaven, your efforts are proportionally rewarded. And-
David: Right
Seth: ... your work is, too. Like, it's not just-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, rewards. Your work is. Think about 1 Corinthians-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... 3:10, where whatever is built, whatever is built apart from the foundation of Jesus Christ, when the fire comes, is all burned up.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So only what's built-
David: Right
Seth: ... on the foundation of fearing God and keeping His commandments lasts until the end. So there's a sense that even our work, too-
David: Mm
Seth: ... lasts through into eternity if we are wise-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in how we pursue it.
David: Yeah. So I think, I think something we need to define then is, how do we build treasure in Heaven, and how do we build upon the foundation of Christ by fearing God and obeying His commandments? Because I think these passages have often been used by, like, televangelists to be like, you know, "Hey, why are you, why do you have that money sitting in a savings account? Get it out, and put, and give it to my ministry, and then it'll be secure in Heaven."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I'll put it up there for you." You know? Like, is, is the only way to build treasure in Heaven giving it to your church or to a televangelist? Like [laughs]
Seth: I think one of the ways that you build treasure in Heaven is to do what Qohelet tells us to do over and over and over and over again. Not only the final command to fear God and keep His commandments, but to eat, drink, and enjoy our toil. This is... I mean, this goes to the heart of the disagreement we have over the Book of Ecclesiastes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But it also plots the middle way. The Lord has given to us a life to be faithful in. Like, He's given us gifts to steward, money to steward, a job to steward, and with those gifts, we can be tempted to go all in and say, "Well, if I just work harder, if I get more money, if I have more pleasure, then I'll be satisfied." No. The middle road is not to grab two hands. The, the, the wise life is not to grab two hands on a gift from God or to withdraw them and say, "Well, I, I better not do anything," and place no hands on your work. It's to place one hand on the gift of God and one hand on rest, and then move forward. To trust in the gift that God has given us and to rest in His promises. Like, that might be, like, over-spiritualizing some of what, what's going on here, but I think, like, it is a form of good news, that we, when we do what God has given us, when we trust in God and the pl- and the, what He's allotted for us in this season of life, and when we rest that He has taken care of what we need to be provided for, we will begin to store up treasures in Heaven. Does that make sense? Is that like a s-
David: So you're talking, you're ta- no, you're not talking about the method by which we store up treasures in Heaven. You're, you're talking about this is how you create a heart that can-
Seth: Yes
David: ... store up treasures in Heaven.
Seth: I think so.
David: Is that what you're saying?
Seth: Like-
David: Okay
Seth: ... what does, what does, what does store up treasures in Heaven mean? It means t- trust Jesus. Trust that Jesus alone can save you. Trust that God alone can save you. Trust that God's law, His word, His commands are good for you. That's how you store up treasures in Heaven, right? Like, you, you believe in Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... His sacrifice for you, and you do what He commands. So what does that mean on the ground? Like, when you live your life-
David: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What does it, what does it mean for-
Seth: What does it mean for my money?
David: ... my money?
Seth: What does it mean for justice? It means you grab-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with one hand all that the Lord has given you, and you enjoy it. You eat it. You work hard at it. And with the other hand, you rest in what everything Jesus already accomplished. He will bring justice to bear. You will have h- you are co-heir with Christ, and you will have all of His riches. So you can rest and not try to work so hard y- or, like, earn more money. You can fight for, against injustice and also rest in a world of injustice, knowing that Jesus will come and bring final justice. Does that make sense? I think that's where I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm landing.
David: It d- it does make sense. Yeah. It does make... I'm landing somewhere else.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I'll do mine side.
Seth: So I think the good news there is that-
David: So-
Seth: ... trust God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... fear His commands, enjoy the Lord's gifts, and then rest when they come to an end. And, like, when we do that-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we build up treasures in Heaven. Our work that h- is here on the Earth lasts into eternity, and we will see it on the other side, and we can enjoy the life we have while we're on the Earth. I think that's the wisdom of Qohelet.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think, I think it, I- I, uh, the other side of it I'll, I'll just present, whi- which would be, um, that I think Qohelet is trying to show us the vanity of building up treasure-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... on Earth and showing that it will never satisfy. And so it allows us to treat money differently and to treat work differently. So he's showing that, you know, everyone wants to work for themselves, but when we realize that that won't ever satisfy, um, we realize that we can work for others.
Seth: Right.
David: And we can toil on behalf of the justice of others, and the good of others, and the well-being of others. Whenever we realize that an accumulation of wealth will never satisfy, we realize that we don't need to ask the question how much should I give, but how much should I keep?And we can change the way we view our resources, knowing that, like, I just need to provide for my needs.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I don't need to provide for some kind of intangible fulfillment that I'll never actually reach. And so we can start to give our money to others or use our money as a tool to fight injustice and to relieve the oppressed, and we can start to do things with our money. And, um, those are actions that we can take that Jesus, I think, whenever he talks about money, he, he's talking about action. He's like, "Don't store up your treasures here on earth where these bad things can happen to it. Instead, store up your treasures in heaven." I think he's talking about tangible treasures in both places, and it's like, but it, it's what we do with it. Do you hoard it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or do you use it? And I, I think about the parable, you know, the talents, and I think about the way the early church viewed money by sharing things in common and using it to relieve the poor in other cities.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.
David: Um, and how, how Paul would, would work with his hands to make tents in cities so he didn't have to, um, burden a local community. Like, he understood these principles, like, that, that he didn't need a bunch of money, and so he didn't... You know, he just... I, I just think it frees us up to treat money differently than everyone else treats money. When we know that it's pointless and we know that it will never satisfy us, we get to have a relationship with money as Christians that no one else can have because we know it's a tool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's not an end, and we know that it will never buy us here on earth what we actually want.
Seth: I think-
David: And so we can use it differently.
Seth: I think this is a helpful way to kind of sum up what you're saying, and also kind of like, some of what you're saying, also something that Qohelet brings out. We are not free from the hevel of money. We are not free from the hevel of toil.
David: Right.
Seth: We are not free from the smokiness of injustice until we realize we don't need that thing in order to be satisfied.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that is part of what Qohelet wants us to see. We are r- we are like animals. We are ruled by our desires under the sun, and if we want to escape that animal-like existence where we just eat and eat to be filled and then are empty again, then eat and then are filled and to be empty again, we need to realize-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that we do not need that appetite fulfilled on the earth. We need that appetite fulfilled by the Lord. And once we do that-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we are free from, like, the enslavement of hunger. We are freed from the enslavement of money.
David: Right.
Seth: We're free from the enslavement-
David: Right
Seth: ... of, uh, workaholism. Like, we're free from the enslavement of morality. Like, we, we can be free to love God and do what we want. Like, kind of like, uh-
David: Mm-hmm. Right. To actually... We can be free to enjoy something as a gift from God instead of the end that we desire to finally fill-
Seth: Yes
David: ... all the holes that we have in our heart.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're always trying to fill up some ache, some dissatisfaction, some appetite.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it can be filled up, but not under the sun.
David: Mm-hmm. Yep. I think there's one more little bit of the gospel I just wanna explore here, um, and that is, um, that, you know, Jesus, I think it's amazing, has the proper understanding of riches and how to store up treasures-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in heaven, if you will. That He owns everything. He h- has the cattle on a thousand hills. He created everything, uh, and even everything uncreated i- is His. He owns untold power and dominion and vision and knowledge. Like, He has it all, and yet He s- He, He knew that, like, that, uh... And He was self-satisfied. Like, He was fully satisfied in Himself, and yet, like, He gave of Himself and limited Himself and gave up His riches-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, like, became a human to, to do something that a, a rich king should never have to do, to die for His servants.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? And what's amazing is that, uh... And then, and, you know, and then what's amazing is obviously He got treasures in heaven.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He was, you know, seated at the right hand of God forever enthroned, uh, and, and God set everything under His feet. Like, that's treasure in heaven, if you, you know, if you want to think about it like that, that Jesus received the ultimate crown-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... over everything. Um, and when He did that, this is the other side for us that I think is amazing, that I think we need to talk about, is how Jesus breaks sin's power.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because Qohelet is fatalistic in his determining of the impetus, the motivating drive that is behind every human action.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it's all envy, that we only ever do things out of selfish ambition-
Seth: Right
David: ... and vain conceit, that we only ever do it because we wanna keep up with the Joneses.
Seth: After the curse, that's, that's our pr-
David: And, yeah
Seth: ... that's our predominant mo- motivation.
David: That's all we can do.
Seth: That's why it's in the, part of the Ten Commandments.
David: That's right.
Seth: That's why the last command is do not covet. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... yeah.
David: That's right, yep. And so, uh, and so I think what's amazing is that we have to remember is that Jesus supernaturally-
Seth: Yes
David: ... breaks that in us-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and can break that in you, that, like, He actually can take over the stronghold of sin and Satan in your heart and make you not envious anymore. He gives y- He can give you a different motivation, which would be you can become envious for His glory.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like [laughs] and that is what can be the motivating factor of your life, is I want Jesus to be glorified. And so, yeah, you'll be ambitious. Yeah, you'll use money-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in very strategic ways, but you'll do it for a different end, namely the glory of Jesus.
Seth: Think about, think about this. Like, the whole of Qohelet's wisdom is like, "What you desire is not gonna satisfy. What you desire is not gonna satisfy. What you desire is not gonna satisfy." But the way that you find satisfaction is by satisfying yourself in the Lord, by...
David: Yes.
Seth: So Psalm 37:4.
David: Yes.
Seth: "Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you-"
David: And
Seth: "... the desires of your heart." Psalm 21:2.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Psalm 1:45, "Delight yourself in the Lord, and all that you've been searching for-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "will be found."But it's not found.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, you must-
David: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you," Jesus said.
Seth: This is why in, uh, Matthew 7, "Ask for whatever you want in my name, and I will give it to you."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is Luke 11, Mark 11:22, "Ask for that mountain to be thrown in the sea. It'll be done." Why?
David: Yep.
Seth: Because when you delight yourself in the Lord, everything that you want is satisfied.
David: Your desires sync up with God's desires.
Seth: Yes.
David: You- your time is fixed.
Seth: Yes.
David: You [laughs] like, this is what we talked about, how, like, God is doing things in the world, and we don't know what he's doing. When we delight ourselves in God, and his desires become our desires, we sync up with his will, and so we start asking for him to do the things that he was about to do anyway.
Seth: Yes.
David: And [laughs] like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and mountains move.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, it's cool.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yep. That's fun.
Seth: We think-
David: Well, great
Seth: ... we've, we, we needed that. [laughs]
David: We, we needed it. Yeah.
Seth: I've been-
David: We needed, we needed that. That was good
Seth: ... I've been, like, diagnosing all our episodes on this, and I keep thinking, like, "Man," like, "these feel like those philosophy classes I was in, in h-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in college and high school," where it's like we're tr-
David: Where they're 90% frustrating
Seth: ... we're 90% frustrating, and, like, "Why are we so talking about this?" "Well, that's an interesting perspective." "Well, that st- seems to contradict that," and, "Well, that's different," and, "Well, I, I, that it, life is pointless, isn't it?" "Well, maybe there's good news."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I feel like our whole episodes-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... on Ecclesiastes have felt like that, and maybe that's just the way you're-
David: Yep
Seth: ... supposed to [laughs] like, engage with Ecclesiastes.
David: Yeah, it probably is.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yep. I think if you're not spending the whole time, you're probably not engaging it the right way.
Seth: So be encouraged if you feel that way, and you're like, "I can't make heads or tails of this." Like, uh, we, we bare- we, we barely can either, [laughs] like, but, like, delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. If the book of Qohelet is always trying to point out when you delight in other things, they fail you, delight yourself in the Lord, and you will have what Qohelet says never exists under the sun. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
