Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us. Seth, how are you today?
Seth: Right across the Jordan River.
David: [laughs] Right across the Jordan River.
Seth: Do you know my bapti- am I baptized? [laughs] My dad-
David: My, my baptized was-
Seth: [laughs] My dad was baptized in the Jordan River.
David: For like, his first baptism?
Seth: For his first baptism.
David: Oh.
Seth: Isn't that crazy?
David: 'Cause I know a lot of people, like, when I went to Israel, a lot of people were getting, like, re-baptized-
Seth: Oh
David: ... in the Jordan River. It's like a, a thing.
Seth: It's a thing.
David: And like you- yeah. It's like an industry.
Seth: It's... There's an... [laughs]
David: [laughs] Of course there is.
Seth: Of course there is. There's a Christian-
David: There's a-
Seth: [laughs]
David: There's an industry there. Yeah.
Seth: Uh, that's hilarious.
David: Yes.
Seth: No, my, my dad got legit first time baptized-
David: That's crazy
Seth: ... at the Jordan River.
David: That's awesome.
Seth: Uh, which is really cool.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like a really... [laughs]
David: It was a very surreal experience when I was at the Jordan River 'cause I was on the, um, Israeli side-
Seth: Okay
David: ... of the Jordan River, and the part of the river I was on was probably only, I don't know, 15 feet wide.
Seth: Okay.
David: Really narrow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Uh, and on the other side, the Palestine side, right?
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: I c- I could just see Palestinian arm- army people with automatic rifles-
Seth: That's-
David: ... sitting there-
Seth: ... crazy
David: ... in case anybody tried to cross the Jordan. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Which, which is pretty on the nose. [laughs]
David: Pretty on the nose for this story here.
Seth: That's crazy.
David: But it was very surreal being like-
Seth: Did you get re-baptized at the Jordan?
David: I did not. I did get in, but I did not-
Seth: Did you-
David: ... get re-baptized
Seth: ... did you just, like, just dunk yourself just to, just to-
David: I didn't. I don't even think I went... No, I didn't even go under 'cause I didn't have a change of clothes.
Seth: I bet Jesus did this, too. [laughs]
David: But I did, like, wade in it.
Seth: That's pretty cool.
David: And that was, that was pretty cool. It was... Yeah, it was very surreal. It was super neat. But yeah, the, the Palestinian soldiers definitely added a pall over the-
Seth: That's so crazy. Like, like, just like-
David: Just like
Seth: ... the fortress of Jericho stood over the border of the Jordan.
David: That's right.
Seth: So did the Palestinian [laughs] soldiers. We're not trying to make a political point.
David: We're really not.
Seth: We're really not.
David: It's just-
Seth: It's just what's happening
David: ... a parallel, interesting parallel.
Seth: It's just what's happening [laughs] in this moment.
David: [laughs] Um.
Seth: That was unscripted. [laughs]
David: So before we jump in to Joshua three to five, uh, I just wanna make a note that we've decided for the first time ever with this, um, book that we wanna open it up to you guys, our audience-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to ask us questions about Joshua as we go through it. So as you're listening to us talk about this book, especially the Book of Joshua, it, it can just be really confusing, and people can have a lot of questions about it, so we thought it would be a great place to start doing some question and answer. Um, so if you have a question about anything in the Book of Joshua, um-
Seth: Send it
David: ... just send an email to us at [email protected].
Seth: Yep.
David: That's [email protected]. You can send it in a text format, and we'll read it, or better yet, record yourself in a voice message on your phone and send that as an email attachment, and we can play your voice on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the podcast, and-
Seth: Which would be super fun
David: ... people can hear your beautiful voice. So keep your, uh, questions short and to the point. That'll make 'em more likely to get aired, and we're really excited to dialogue with those, uh, at the e- after we finish the Book of Joshua.
Seth: After we finish. Yeah.
David: We'll record a Q and, a Q&A. So anyway.
Seth: I'm e- I'm excited about that.
David: That'll be good.
Seth: I forgot that we were gonna do that.
David: I know.
Seth: So I'm excited-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that you remembered. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: That, that we're actually doing it.
David: Yes. So anyway, um, and we are, uh, coming up on our... We're getting very close to our 100th episode.
Seth: Next week will be our 100th episode.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh-
David: Which is, like, our strictly 100th episode-
Seth: Yes, if you count-
David: ... including specials and everything
Seth: ... and, like, everything. But yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: Our 100th episode is next week.
David: Which has been exciting.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So anyway. All right.
Seth: Celebrate with us. Cool.
David: Joshua.
Seth: Joshua three to five.
David: Um, what has been going on up to this point?
Seth: Well, basically, uh, we, we had the incident with Rahab.
David: Yes.
Seth: Rahab hides the spies.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Uh, Joshua sends a couple men over the border, border of the Jordan River to spy out the land to see what's happening. And Rahab, a prostitute, uh, confesses faith in Yahweh-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... hides the spies from the king, Jericho's Gestapo, and makes sh- and, uh, has this really interesting phrase where she says, "The hearts of the people melt-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "before you."
David: Right.
Seth: And it's-
David: Because they heard that all, all that Yahweh did to the people in Egypt-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and, like, how he parted the Red Sea.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it was this crazy thing.
Seth: And we talked about how her heart melts in repentance-
David: Yes
Seth: ... while the other people's hearts melt in, into, like, hardening. [laughs]
David: Yeah. Also-
Seth: Melt, melted to hardening
David: ... Jericho's Gestapo- [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... is something you just said.
Seth: I just wanna... [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Any bad guy in the story will just be called... There, there are... Their, their, their, their, their, their jackbooted stormtroopers will be called Gestapo.
David: Gestapo. [laughs]
Seth: Um, and then before that, uh, Joshua assumes command of the army-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and nation of Israel.
David: He takes Moses' place.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so what really ends up happening here in chapter three is that we're, we're concerned that Joshua is a worthy successor-
David: Right
Seth: ... to Moses.
David: Yes.
Seth: So you have Moses, who saw God face to face-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who received the Ten Commandments, who, like, spoke with God on a mountain for 40 days, who-
David: Wrote the Torah. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. Wrote the Torah. Like, you have this pretty impressive figure who led them through the wilderness, who struck water from a rock, who, like, prayed to the Lord, and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... armies were defeated. Like, and-
David: Yeah, let alone everything he did in Egypt-
Seth: Yes
David: ... at, at the Exodus. C- like, calling down plagues, and confronting Pharaoh, and freeing God's people from slavery in Egypt. He's done a lot.
Seth: He's done a-A lot.
David: Those are big sandals to fill.
Seth: [laughs] Very large, very large sandals to fill.
David: Size 14 sandals.
Seth: Um, so [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I just, I just kept thinking in my mind of, like, how you can call, like, sandals thongs.
David: Oh.
Seth: But, uh [laughs]
David: Don't say that
Seth: ... I'm just like [laughs] Anyway.
David: We'll let, we'll let the listener complete that-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... sentence in their own mind.
Seth: Um, so Joshua has very big sandals-
David: Sandals
Seth: ... [laughs] to fill.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so really, it's like, it's a question of legitimacy in one sense.
David: Right.
Seth: Can he actually do the job? Like, does-
David: Right
Seth: ... he have God's blessing?
David: Well, especially if you think about the end of Deuteronomy, and I don't know how much of the very end of Deuteronomy would, uh, w- would've been communicated to Israel, but they had to be feeling it, which is, uh, and to that day, no prophet had arisen like Moses-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who spoke with God face-to-face. And so it's like that kind of thing is ringing in their ears, whether or not it was written at that point or not isn't, isn't important. W- that's the haunting nature that we should be feeling as listeners when we step into Joshua-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is like, "Well, who's gonna lead God's people?" [laughs]
Seth: Or, and you've experienced that when you have a... Like, I had this terrible manager at Starbucks.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: She was just the worst.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And everyone hated it. And then she was quitting-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and a new manager was coming in, and everybody, like, automatically hated the new guy.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Based on our experience with the old manager, we're super skeptical, really kinda angry, and we're just waiting to see what this guy will do. It's like, "Is he gonna be better than what we had before?" Like, we've, we've had that moment-
David: Right
Seth: ... where a new leader comes in after a leader we know, whether a good one or a bad one, and we're like, "Are you gonna be like the one before?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "Or are you gonna be better?"
David: Right.
Seth: And so this moment in Joshua three to five, we're kinda getting an answer to that question.
David: Right.
Seth: Is Joshua a worthy successor to Moses?
David: 'Cause it's not even about necessarily Joshua's character, although that's tied up into it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The bigger issue is, has God chosen Joshua, and will God be with Joshua? Will he be Yahweh to Joshua, I am to Joshua, the way he was with Moses? Like, will Joshua's leadership be accompanied with great power-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and signs and miracles? Like, because that's the only way gonna- they're gonna be able to take this land of Canaan-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is if the powerful Yahweh is on their side.
Seth: Yeah, which is why it's really important to notice in the very first verses, chapter three, verse three, uh, you see Joshua organizing for the Ark of the Covenant to be the center of them going into the land.
David: Right.
Seth: So before the Ark of the Covenant was built in the Book of Exodus and, in the Book of Exodus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... God's presence was communicated by a pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire.
David: Right.
Seth: So think back to the, uh, story of the parting of the Red Sea.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You have a pillar of fire blocking Pharaoh's armies from attacking the Israelites until the sea is parted.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then they walk past when the sea is parted when Moses holds out his hand.
David: Mm.
Seth: So there's no place for the presence of God to dwell. It's as Moses stretches out his hand, it's this g- giant pillar of fire, it's cloud, it's like these crazy symbols.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and that s- happens all throughout Moses' leadership. So here, God's presence, though, is communicated through the Ark of the Covenant.
David: Right.
Seth: And so Joshua is centering his conquest of the land, them crossing the Jordan River, around the presence of the Lord, as he should be. And this is what, uh, j- God says in, uh, Joshua 3:7. He says, "Today I will begin to exalt you in the sight of all Israel, so that you may know, they may know that as I was with Moses, so I will be with you."
David: Right. That's like the thesis statement for chapters three to five-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is, I'm gonna, God is gonna prove to Israel that he will be with Joshua in the same way that he was with Moses.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yeah. I also love talking about... I just, I never connected the pillar of fire with the Ark of the Covenant here.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: But it is. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if you were reading the story, and even if you saw the crossing of the Jordan as an analog or a repeat-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of what Moses did at the Red Sea, which you should-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uh, y- i- you would automatically be thinking like, "Okay, I see the deli- the chosen deliverer of God, uh, who will part the, the water. I see the body of water. I see the people of Israel. I see, uh, a land they're leaving and a land they're coming into. All the elements are here. Oh, wait, where's God?" [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Where's the presence of God? And it, with Moses, it was the f- the pillar of fire-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but here, it's-
Seth: The Ark
David: ... the Ark of the Covenant.
Seth: Yep.
David: I just didn't see that. And I love how they double down on that in verse 13, uh, "When the soles of the feet of the priests bearing the Ark of Yahweh, the Lord of all the earth." [laughs]
Seth: And think about that, not the Lord of Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: The Lord of all the earth.
David: All the earth.
Seth: They're leaving the place that it had, had been before.
David: And going into the nations.
Seth: Into the nations, yep.
David: Yep. Interesting.
Seth: Yes.
David: So yes, we have a repeat here. I think it would be helpful, um... Is, is it helpful now to lay out kind of the pattern that Joshua is about to be walked through as a fulfillment of Moses here?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: So here's... So what's... So just let me make sure that I'm clear on what we just said.
David: Yes.
Seth: What we just said was that this, we're concerned with Joshua being a worthy successor to Moses, um, and then God is also interested in the same thing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God wants to prove to Israel that he will be with Joshua just like he has been with, uh, Moses. And you can see this even in the pattern-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the way Joshua's narrative arc is structured in light of Moses' narrative arc-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and leadership in Israel.
David: That's right. So while I think it will be helpful for us to dig into each of these moments, 'cause there's-Awesome stuff in all of them. Just as a way of overview, let me tell you the order of things that Joshua does
Seth: Mm
David: ... and then reflect on the order of things that Moses did.
Seth: Yep.
David: And we'll see something really cool. So Joshua, we hear in, uh, chapter three, verse five, uh, "Then Joshua said to the people, 'Consecrate yourselves, for tomorrow Yahweh will do wonders among you.'" This is the same thing that was said in Exodus 19 by Moses. He s- uh, where Moses said, "Consecrate yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will come and be among us."
Seth: So that's like-
David: And that's-
Seth: ... that's on Mount Sinai, right?
David: That's, uh, they're, they're camped around Mount Sinai, waiting for God's presence to come, and so we kinda have this similar moment here where-
Seth: God's presence.
David: Yep
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: Jo- uh, Joshua is commissioning the people of Israel to consecrate themselves for the Lord. Then right after that, he goes and crosses the Jordan River, and then after that, they celebrate the Passover, and after that, Joshua has an encounter with a physical theophany, like, which is a, like, a physical manifestation of God's presence.
Seth: The angel of the Lord.
David: The angel of the Lord, who says to him, "Take off your shoes, for this is holy ground."
Seth: Right.
David: Okay, the exact same thing happens in Moses's life, but backwards.
Seth: Okay. [laughs]
David: Which is a common Hebrew literary device called a chiasm.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it follows-
Seth: We love a chiasm.
David: We love a good chiasm. So-
Seth: Looks like a big X.
David: It's a big X.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And if you, if you did... I have it here sitting in front of me, and I have Moses's X going from bottom left to top right, and I have Joshua's X going from top left to bottom right, forming an X.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I just walked from the top left down to the bottom right with new Sinai, Red Sea, Passover, commander of the Lord's army.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Now we're gonna go from-
Seth: Jordan River
David: ... Jordan R- uh-
Seth: Jordan River.
David: Yeah, Red Sea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I said, yeah, I said Red Sea. Jordan River. Uh, Moses plays out the same thing in reverse. Instead of it ending on the commander of the Lord's army, it starts at the burning bush-
Seth: Where-
David: ... where he's also told, "Take off your shoes. This is holy ground."
Seth: Okay.
David: Just as Joshua was commissioned, so was Moses.
Seth: At Mount Sinai the first time? Is that what you mean?
David: Uh-
Seth: Oh, with the, uh-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with the, with the, that moment at the, the burning bush.
David: At the burning bush.
Seth: Got it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And then after that, he goes into Egypt, does all those things, and the next thing we see that Joshua did, that Moses did, was Passover.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Same order, but in reverse. And then after Passover, they went and crossed the Red Sea, just like Joshua crossed the Jordan.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then they went to Sinai, where they consecrated themselves for the presence of the Lord.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, literally, there is this very clear literary connection that God has orchestrated sovereignly in the life of Joshua to repeat the pattern that he set with Moses to build confidence-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the people, um-
Seth: Even-
David: ... that are following him
Seth: ... even to think about, and the, the way that the reversed order makes different points. So in Joshua's narrative, the fact that the commander of the Lord's army comes to visit him before he goes into battle-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... proves h- the legitimacy of his leadership, the fact that the Lord is with him, and that he's about to take on the enemies of the Lord.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the fact that in Moses's narrative, you have him consecrating himself before he gives the law proves of himself as the lawgiver towards-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israel.
David: That's right.
Seth: It, like, it shows you the unique ways that those characters play out.
David: Yes. I also think it's very interesting, the, the backwards nature of Joshua's fulfillment of Moses-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is interesting because as Moses took the people out of the land, Joshua is bringing them-
Seth: Mm
David: ... into a new land.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so Moses went out, Joshua is going in. Uh, and then what we should see is aft- is kind of like, as this fulfillment is playing out, um, in chapter four, verse 23, it seems that what God said he would do in chapter three, which you just read, is proving that Joshua is a new Moses-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... happens.
Seth: Yep.
David: It says, "For the Lord your God dried up the waters of the Jordan, for until you passed over, um, as the Lord your God did at the Red Sea." So, like, we're not making up this connection.
Seth: Right.
David: God has it here, [laughs] "Which he dried up until we passed over, so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the hand of the Lord is mighty, and that you may fear the Lord your God forever." So it's like, he's doing it. He's repeating, uh, these things. And then the last thing I want-
Seth: He's repeating it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in order to legitimate Joshua as-
David: That's right
Seth: ... the new Moses-
David: That's right
Seth: ... as God's chosen-
David: Yep
Seth: ... deliverer.
David: And to, um, cast, um, or to show publicly his power, uh, to all the people. And then the last thing I, I would, I would say i- in just connecting to Moses, um, is there's a bookend here that happens. So when Moses steps out into the wilderness after they cross the Red Sea, God starts to feed his people with manna.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then here, once the people cross over the Red Sea and have their Passover, the manna stops.
Seth: Because they're eating from the bounty of the land-
David: Of the land
Seth: ... the Lord promised to give them.
David: So just... And i- it's, like, an interesting, um, final period.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? Full stop at the end of Moses's ministry, where it's like, as, as his ministry started with manna, that manna's now ended. So it's just, like, an interesting little bookend there.
Seth: It's... And let's just go ahead and jump to s- say how Jesus actually fulfills all these same patterns in his own life.
David: That's right.
Seth: So, like, we have these literary, crossing literary structures-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in Joshua and Moses's life, but we, and w- we don't have, like, the same, uh-
David: Order
Seth: ... order, but we have all the same events-
David: Yes
Seth: ... happening in Jesus's life because he-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is a deliverer who's better than Joshua and a lawgiver who's better than Moses.
David: Yeah, and part of the reason why there's not the right order is because they happen so many times.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, God, like, Jesus's life stacks a lot of these elements on top of each other and, um, just, like, ratchets them up-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to crazy degrees.
Seth: So just for example-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so we have Jesus when he crosses the Jordan River, and John the Baptist sees him and says, "Behold, the Lamb of God," [laughs]
David: Takes away-
Seth: "Who takes away the sin of the world." So what do we have conflating on it? We have the Lamb of God as, like, the Passover lamb.
David: The Passover lamb.
Seth: We have the crossing of the Jordan River-
David: Yep
Seth: ... happening at the same time. We have God descending from heaven saying, "This is my Son"-
David: "With whom I'm well pleased"-
Seth: "With whom I'm well"-
David: ... like he did at Mount Sinai-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and commissioning Jesus to go, like he did at the burning bush. Like-
Seth: Yes. [laughs] And then you im- after that, Jesus spends 40 days in the wilderness-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like Israel spent 40 years-
David: Years
Seth: ... in the wilderness, and Moses spent 40 days in God's presence. He's ministered to by angels in the wilderness, just as Moses experienced the Lord's presence at the burning bush, and Joshua is greeted by an angel. [laughs]
David: And w- and we're told in the New Testament that-Uh, angels ministered the giving of the law between God and Moses.
Seth: Yes.
David: So angels ministered to Moses on top of Mount Sinai too.
Seth: And then when Jesus comes off of his commissioning-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and from his time in the wilderness with the Lord's presence, he gives the law on the Sermon on the Mount.
David: That's right.
Seth: Just like Moses gave the law there, or you could say he's coming in to conquer the land.
David: Which he does right after the giving of the law as he drives out the, uh, his enemies.
Seth: Yes.
David: His spiritual enemies, sickness, death, and d- and demons.
Seth: Luke doesn't begin with the Sermon on the Mount.
David: Nope.
Seth: He begins with the prophecy from Isaiah, "I've come to, to-
David: Proclaim good news to the poor
Seth: ... good news to the poor, liberty to the captives, and bind up the brokenhearted."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, Jesus repeats all these same patterns, even the manna one.
David: Yes.
Seth: Jesus doesn't c- part a Red Sea. He walks on top-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of the Sea of Galilee right after he does what? Produces food for 5,000 people to eat bread. [laughs]
David: Yep.
Seth: Jesus is, like, doing all the work-
David: Yes
Seth: ... here. [laughs]
David: I love that one because the, the wa- Jesus walking on water is such a common story.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, uh, it's so easy to miss, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the literary pattern that's being fulfilled is Jes- this is his new crossing of the Red Sea to show that he doesn't even have to part the waters to do it.
Seth: Just-
David: He can just walk on top of them-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... as if, as if the top of the wet water was dry ground.
Seth: It's-
David: Which is amazing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, 'cause that's the... that language is repeated in Joshua. They walked on dry ground. They walked on dry ground.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's what happened in Exodus. Jesus walks on water as if it is dry.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's amazing.
David: It's amazing. Uh, yeah, then you have other things. Uh, Jesus, uh, not only, uh, took the Passover with his t- like, 12 tribes of Israel, which, which Joshua does-
Seth: 12 disciples
David: ... his twel- his 12 disciples, he reinstitutes it as a new covenant, uh, and says, "You know what? That wine and this bread is no longer, um, what you thought it was. Instead, it's all about me and my death on the cross."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he, like, reinstitutes the Lord's Supper, ratcheting it up. Uh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... he even has a, um, a Mount Sinai moment, um, on-
Seth: Oh, with the Mount of Transfiguration
David: ... the Mount of Transfiguration. But instead of Moses-
Seth: Where Moses is there.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: But instead of him seeing a r- a shining, bright, blazing representative of God in a theophany, he becomes the shining, bright representation of God as the theophany himself. He is God in the flesh dwelling on the mountain.
Seth: That's cool.
David: So it's just amazing. Like-
Seth: It's really cool
David: ... so many of the things that we, are set up for us here in Moses and Joshua are completed and intensified in Jesus. And I think the question we have to ask is, why does that matter? Other than, I think, I think we shouldn't belittle this fact, other than just the beauty, uh, and sovereignty that is on display in the way that God has written this collection-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of letters and scrolls th- that we know as the Bible. It's beautiful.
Seth: Yeah. Why does it matter that it's beautiful? Well, one-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or why does it matter that all those s-
David: Yes
Seth: ... rep- repetitions are like... Well, one, it matters because it is beautiful.
David: Yes.
Seth: And when the Word is beautiful, we can celebrate the God who is beautiful.
David: Who has made the beauty.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, so one way... It's like, it's one way to worship, when you're just, like, caught up in the narrative details of the text. We've been talking about this-
David: We have
Seth: ... off the air. It's like we s- celebrate the God who is beautiful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and who created beautiful literature.
David: Yeah. A note on that, uh, just to get it on the record, 'cause I just think it's been really helpful for me to think about, I used to separate the enjoyment of God from the enjoyment of His Word. And while I don't wanna, like, deify the text or anything like that-
Seth: What do you mean by that? It's like you would, like... Uh, it's like, well, loving God is what I do during a worship service or like-
David: Or, like, prayer or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, and, and Scripture was the jumping-off point to get there, right?
Seth: Got it, got it, got it.
David: It was a means to an end. Um, and I was really con- confronted by Psalm 1 the other day when, uh, it says that the man who's, who, uh, like the wise man who's planted by a stream of water, his delight is in the law of the Lord.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, it's okay to take delight-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in God's Word, which is like-
Seth: Did you, did you, like-
David: ... what we don't find ourselves doing so often.
Seth: Right. And did you find yourself, like, afraid to take delight or-
David: Yeah, kind of.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause, like, I think, um-
Seth: That it was somehow secondary or not as good or just-
David: Yeah, part. I think, uh, I, I think it's also, like, uh, maybe even just growing up, or not growing up, but, like, uh, my theological training in seminary and in everything, um, there's been, like, there's this stereotype, uh, around being, like, a bibliophile-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who worships the text instead of the author, and I didn't-
Seth: Right
David: ... wanna be guilty of that.
Seth: Right.
David: And God's like, "I wrote it." [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: "And it's living and active, and it's God-breathed. And, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... at some point, you can't separate me from my, my book that much."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so anyway.
Seth: Yeah, so w- w-
David: It's good to, to see the beauty.
Seth: Yeah, seeing the beauty is an end in itself, and it's awesome.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's really clever. It's really beautiful. That should make you worship the God who wrote clever and beautiful things.
David: And who, like, orchestrates history to sovereignly line things up. Like-
Seth: Yeah, 'cause it's not just-
David: ... His power
Seth: ... 'cause this isn't just a story. These are people's lives-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that are intersecting in these crazy ways.
David: So many historical things had to line up for all of this to, like, to happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's, like, the most elaborate, I don't wanna say prank, but it's like [laughs] like, the most elaborate sermon illustration you could ever have. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, and, uh, and so it would be like a preacher being like, "So I have a sermon illustration for you, and I've been working on it for 50 years. And there's these four families in South Korea-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... that I've been talk..." And it's like, wait, what?
Seth: What did you do? [laughs]
David: This is a big sermon illustration.
Seth: Okay.
David: Anyway, so but why does it matter theologically, Christologically, that Jesus is the new Moses and the new Joshua, that he actually fulfills this line? Because the, the question I think that people are asking, especially at the point right before Jesus came, is, who is going to be our new deliverer? We're back under Roman oppression. Uh, the law and the temple aren't quite being fulfilled as we wanted them to. You have, you have a lot of Zealot groups, and you had the Essenes, and the Pharisees, and the Zealots, and they're all trying to, like, gin up a revolution and retake the land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they need a new deliverer. And so J- they've had lots of different people come and claim to be that new deliverer, and none of them have been.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So Jesus comes, and the same question is of him. Are you the one we've been waiting for?
Seth: Yeah. Are you a worthy successor to Moses?
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, yes it's a great- the re- yes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It matters because up to this point, you've had a failure of leadership and a failure of law so like in the, in the, in the, the narrative of the Bible, in the Old Testament, you have leader after leader failing to secure a homeland for God's people.
David: Right.
Seth: And you have the law, instead of bringing the shalom and peace and unity between God's people and the world, you see people just breaking it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... all the time. So you have in Israel, 1,000, 2,000 years of failure of, of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of law givers and, um, deliverers-
David: Right
Seth: ... failing to do that task. You see hints of success-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the giving of law, and even hints of success in Joshua, as he actually takes part of the land and secures it for them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But they're really still waiting for somebody th- to do it perfectly.
David: Yes.
Seth: To do it better. And so the reason why it's important all these patterns are being repeated and then amplified and then ratcheted up is that no, no, no, Jesus is a better law giver than Moses, whose law will bring the peace promised, and Jesus is a better deliverer than Joshua, who will conquer our enemies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and give us peace in a homeland.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the reason why it's important that he p- repeats the patterns is so that we would be clued in on the fact that he's doing what Israel has not yet experienced, and he's leading us into it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That he's a worthy, trustworthy leader.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, all that anxiety that we feel about, "Is this new leader gonna be good enough for us?" is like, all that anxiety is taken away when we see the narrative played out and Jesus being better.
David: Yes. I, I think you're absolutely right, and I think, I, I wonder how m- how much of this literary pattern played out in synagogues across the Roman Empire and in Macedonia as Paul traveled and convinced people from the scriptures-
Seth: Right
David: ... that Jesus was the promised one. I'm just curious at like how much of this was part of the way he proved that, that like how can you say to, that, that the law has been fulfilled? Who's this new Moses you're talking about? He's like, "I'm glad you asked."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jesus did all these things-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, and f- fits the, the model laid out for us. I mean, it's a, it w- it's an early church apologetic-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the authenticity of Jesus as the Messiah, which I think is very interesting.
Seth: Yeah, and for all of, all you have who have Jewish friends, like this is a great way to talk about [laughs]
David: Yes
Seth: ... the Messi- like why Jesus fulfills the hopes of the Old Testament-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and why Christianity is, is, is an, an, is the continuation-
David: Continuation
Seth: ... of what our Jewish brothers and sisters believe.
David: Yes. Uh, Jesus himself, um, addresses the fact that this, um, question is being asked and that he is in the line of succession from Moses to Joshua as Israel's leaders. In John 5:46, the, the people are just disbelieving him-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... even though he's performing miracles and speaking with authority and all these things. And he says, "If you had believed Moses, you would have believed me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because Moses wrote about me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and so he's seeing himself as this spiritual, um, ances- or, uh-
Seth: Successor
David: ... successor, thank you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... ah, to Moses and to Joshua. And he says, "Look, if you, if you believed Moses and then you believed Joshua, you would see that I fit the pattern and that I'm next."
Seth: Mm.
David: "And like you would believe me if you read your, your Old Testament correctly." Um, and I just, I made like three observations about Jesus being the new Moses that I thought were really interesting, uh, based off this statement a- and some other verses in John, uh, 'cause I think John develops this theme really, really well. Uh, one, Jesus is talking about how he's next in line. Two, it was the miracles of Moses and Joshua that proved their position as God's chosen deliverer, and Jesus makes the same argument in John 10:38 and John 14:11. He says, "If you don't believe my words, at least believe the miracles and the works that I'm performing like Moses did."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, "I'm giving you everything I can here." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like, "I'm showing you that I am who I say that I am, so at least believe the miracles if you can't believe my words, if that's too much for you."
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, but then the, the crazy thing is that even though Jesus fulfilled the patterns, spoke the same way, did the miracles, authenticated his ministry, all these things, unlike the two moments in Exodus and in Joshua where the people affirm these new leaders-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and they say, "Yes, everything Moses says we will do. You are God's mouthpiece. Yep, we'll follow you, Joshua, into battle. You tell us where to go, and we'll pounce"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They don't do the same thing for Jesus. Instead, they deny him, distance, uh, themselves from him, and crucify him.
Seth: Instead, the prostitutes are the ones that trust in him.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So it's just like the new Moses and the new Joshua aren't accepted and loved-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and lifted up. They, he is killed and rejected and villainized. Um, yeah.
Seth: And that's a theme that will get de- developed in the prophets-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as Israel continues its downward traject- tra- trajectory. They end up killing the new versions of Moses and Joshua that aren't present in the Old Testament.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then Jesus picks up on that as well. It's like, "You, your fathers killed the prophets-
David: Right
Seth: ... and now you're killing me."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Whatever.
David: So why does all that matter for us today? We kinda talked about why it matters for the original audience.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, but what about today for us? How is this good news for me today?
Seth: Well, because we're in the same story as Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We need a leader who will give us peace from our enemies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... give us a homeland with, with rest. We need a law that can pr- provide shalom and justice and righteousness, and Jesus repeating this pattern offers us the same thing. Do you want a kingdom where righteousness rolls like a river?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Do you want peace from your enemies, especially the ones that nobody has ever beaten-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... like sin and death?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm that leader. Like, so do you want freedom from death? Do you want freedom from sin? Do you want justice to rule? Enter into my kingdom.
David: Yeah, that's really good. That is good news. I think the other thing I, um, i- I'm reflecting on, the purpose for which God acted in this way with Moses and Joshua, uh, and the, it's the two things he says here that is a repeated refrain in, um, Joshua 4:24. We've read it already. Uh, God is doing these miraculous works like drying up the Jordan River or the Red Sea so that all the people of the earth may know that the hand of the Lord is mighty, one, and two, that you may fear the Lord your God forever. So it's for the nations, and it's for us personally.
Seth: Mm.
David: And when I think about all the things that Jesus did to repeat the story of Moses and Joshua, all of them were also not only pointing backwards to what they did, they were pointing forward to His death. Jesus's baptism was a picture of Him going into the grave and rising out of it, and so that whenever we're baptized, we do the same thing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We join Him in His death and join Him in His resurrection. Um, when Jesus defeated the temptation of Satan in the wilderness and was able to bring life out of a situation that could have caused death, we see His cross there and His defeat of evil. Uh, when we see Him being transfigured and lifted up high, we see that even though He came down on this earth, He will be, uh, re- restored with the glory of God that He had since the foundations of the earth. I'm just like all this is pointing forward to the gospel, um, of Jesus, and I just think it's interesting for us and really helpful for us to reflect on the resurrection of Jesus and the miracles of Jesus as a manifestation of His power, His great power.
Seth: His presence.
David: And His presence.
Seth: Yeah.
David: To show, to do the two things that God operated here to do, to, um, to show the nations that He is mighty, that God is not weak. God is not inept or inable. He is powerful-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to overturn anything, including death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we should let our hearts melt within us to fear the Lord and to put our faith in Him, to follow Him as a commander and say, "Wherever you go, I will go," like, to consecrate ourselves to Him. And I just, I-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I've, I don't, I don't often reflects, reflect on the miracles of Jesus as-
Seth: Mm
David: ... fear producing in a really good, clean fear way.
Seth: In like, in the, the trusting type of way.
David: The trusting kind of way.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Where I'm like, "You are mighty-
Seth: Right
David: ... and I will follow you because you have proven to be the deliverer that I need and want."
Seth: [gentle music] Okay, we wanna talk about a couple th- things-
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] In three to five that we kinda glossed over in our overview-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that we wanna dive into before we talk about the commander of the Lord's army.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh-
David: 'Cause, like, we do wanna get there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause it's a fun story.
Seth: So fun.
David: Yep. Uh, yeah. So I just, I mean, I kinda wanna take, we have these three moments. We have the crossing of the Jordan, Passover, and circumcision. So, like, let's just talk about each of them and what we wanna see in those.
Seth: All right.
David: So we've talked a lot about the crossing of the Jordan already as it pointed back to Moses, pointed forward to Jesus. We don't need to rehash that. Um, but what I do want us to think about, since Jesus used the crossing of the Jordan, uh, for His baptism as a picture of that, I think we also should meditate on how the crossing of the Jordan is an analog or a picture of our own baptism, right? I just think that's really interesting-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that baptism, um, where, i- is the time where we join Jesus in His death and resurrection, and surely as we w- He, we were buried with Him in baptism, we'll be raised with Him as He was raised from the dead. Like, that's Romans 6 if you wanna go read that. Um, there's also... I, I love the memorial nature of this act. Um, so after they cross the Jordan River-
Seth: There's a whole chapter-
David: Yes
Seth: ... devoted to setting up memorials-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for the fact that they have-
David: Yes
Seth: ... crossed the Jordan River.
David: Stones of remembrance, if you will.
Seth: Ebenezers-
David: Yes
Seth: ... if you really will.
David: If you really will.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which, uh, I think is first mentioned in 1 Samuel.
Seth: An ebenezer?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then the hymn.
David: Yes.
Seth: Here I raise my ebenezer.
David: Here I raise my ebenezer.
Seth: Yes. It's from this passage. Anyway, continue.
David: Anyway, uh, and so, um, they set up two different, um, memorials.
Seth: Memorials, so that one of each of the leaders from the 12 tribes of Israel was supposed to take a stone out of the middle of the Jordan River.
David: And they must've been big stones, 'cause he said to hoist them up on their shoulders.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So these are like-
Seth: Boulders.
David: Boulders. [laughs]
Seth: Small boulders, and they carry them out of the middle of the Jordan River and set them on the bank-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the land of Canaan-
David: Right
Seth: ... as a memorial-
David: Yep
Seth: ... for what the Lord had, had done.
David: And almost even like a, uh, planting a flag of ownership on the land.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like whenever we put, like, a f-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... like, a American flag on the moon. It's like-
Seth: It's like this is God's land now
David: ... it's ours. [laughs] God's, God's land now.
Seth: And then Joshua, after they do that, he takes 12 stones from the middle of the Jordan bed, riverbed and then places them where the priests' feet were-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as a memorial to the power of God's presence-
David: Yes
Seth: ... from the place where God's presence dwelt for a period of time-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and provided.
David: And so I just feel like that Joshua is setting up for us, um, like, um, an imaginative world here that we can see the crossing of the Jordan, and therefore by extension our baptism, as a sign of God's promises and provision to us, like, and that they are meant to be memorialized. And that's how we talk about baptism. A lot of denominations will talk about baptism this way-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is that it's a, it's a sign of, uh, outwardly of what God has done inwardly.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, and I just, like, love that i- th- that, that-
Seth: It's a memorial for-
David: A memorial
Seth: ... the w- the, the, the crossing that we have made-
David: Yes
Seth: ... from death to life. Yeah.
David: And in the same way, there's a memorial underneath the water, and there's a memorial, memorial on the banks of the Promised Land, and that we are memorializing in baptism our death to sin, and then when we raise up and walk out of that baptistery, we are memorializing the new ground in the land of life that God has claimed for us. Just think that's interesting.
Seth: It's really cool, and it's like-Really significant. There's a whole chapter devoted to just the idea of memorial stones-
David: Yes
Seth: ... which just kind of blew my mind 'cause I'm just not a memorial type of person.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, I didn't wanna go to my high school graduation.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Like, I just like-
David: No.
Seth: Which I know I'm not-
David: Or high school reunions.
Seth: Uh, yeah, I don't wanna go to those.
David: No.
Seth: Yeah, so it's just like... Or, like, even, like, the first day of school photos, I'm like, "I'm just not into that."
David: I don't care. Yep.
Seth: Sure, it's worth an Instagram story, but, like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that's, like, as much as I go [laughs] for it. Anyway, so, like, the... I- I... It's challenging me, like, on a, yes, theological... Let's talk about baptism.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's where we should land. But even, like, what is the nature of remembrance-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and memor- memorial for the Christian-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that I'm missing out on. Um-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so just expect reflections on that in coming episodes.
David: Yeah, I think we should.
Seth: As I'm just kind of like-
David: I mean, if you think a-
Seth: ... processing
David: ... you think about the beginning of Deuteronomy, and God constantly tells them to remember what He's done-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that they will love Him, and that love will lead to obedience. That's the way we're built as humans-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that when we remember God's love for us, we will be made to love Him, and that's what leads to actions toward Him. And so, like, that is what's happening here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Let's let these stones stand up so we can remember what God did here today, so that we'll remember to trust in His power, so that we- we'll take the land.
Seth: Which is why, like, Peter wants to build that memorial on the Mount of Transfiguration. So-
David: One of many reasons.
Seth: One of many reasons.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, but, like, the good, the good part of that reason is, like, this is-
David: Oh
Seth: ... where the Lord's-
David: Yeah. I ha- I, I think Peter... We're not on that episode.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I do think Peter's intentions were really good.
Seth: So he, "Let's... This is where God's presence was."
David: "Let's set it up."
Seth: "Let's remember this."
David: "Let's go."
Seth: "Let's, like, let's do the thing th- that we-"
David: Yeah
Seth: ... did in the Old Testament." He's recognizing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... all these things are happening.
David: That's right.
Seth: So anyway.
David: Yes. So that's fun. Then we have, after the crossing of the Jordan, then they, uh... What, is it Passover that's next?
Seth: Yeah. On verse 19, "The peopl- the people came out of the Jordan on the 10th day at the first month," which is Passover.
David: Right.
Seth: It's the same day God instituted with Moses the Passover back in Exodus. It's the day, the same day that the angel of death comes-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and death passes over Israel because of the blood that's on their doorpost.
David: Yes.
Seth: Same day.
David: Right.
Seth: Well, actually, four days later, which is what happens here. Anyway.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Yes.
David: Well, it's very interesting, and we're supposed to be clued in on this... There's a link here between, uh... 'Cause the stories in, uh, in Exodus 12 to 14-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... are the Passover and then the Red Sea. They're very closely linked. They kind of flee in haste from Passover, which is why they're supposed to eat unleavened bread, 'cause they're supposed to leave in haste, and then they go right to the Red Sea. Here, it's played out backwards, like we've talked about, and they go th- through the Red Sea, uh, and it's their passage through the Red Sea that is said to be, or the Jordan River, that's said to be in haste, verse 10.
Seth: Oh, it's-
David: It's a different Hebrew word, but it has the same exact meaning.
Seth: So fun.
David: And it's so the people passed o- and it's the people passed over in haste, and that is the same word, not for Passover, but it is the same word in Exodus 12, that it says that God will pass through the land of, of Egypt and kill all the firstborn children. And so... And it's repeated three times.
Seth: Hmm.
David: Uh, the people passed over in haste, and when all the people finished passing over, the Ark of the Lord and the priests passed over. And so it's like we're s- being set up for the Passover here-
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: ... very clearly. Um, and I just think that's super interesting.
Seth: That's amazing. So they come up out... That's amazing.
David: Yep.
Seth: So they come up out of the water on the first day of the Passover feast.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Passover feast was supposed to last four days, so first day of the feast, they come out of the water, and on the last day, uh, of the feast is when they finally eat the lamb.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, it- that's happened in Israel a- both times. Um, but what's interesting here is you have this strange story about circumcision.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, so after, uh, they come up to the land the first day of the Passover-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a new celebration of the Passover, um, Moses explain... not Moses, Joshua tells everyone that all the men need to be circumcised.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the reason for this, and there's a long explanation for why that this has to happen, but essentially, the w- generation that was in the wilderness had all been circumcised.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yet they were disobedient.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and while they were in the wilderness, no child had been circumcised.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, is there a good reason for that?
David: So the reason the text gives is 'cause they were traveling, which-
Seth: Which I guess makes sense. [laughs]
David: I guess, but they're kind of still traveling right here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, I'm wondering if it has to do with... Uh, I have two observations about this. One is, does it have to do about, like, like, connecting with their disobedience? Was their refusal to circumcise their children a reflection of their inward disobedience? Probably. Two, you also have a very similar and strangely cryptic story in Moses's calling in Exodus 4, where he's traveling down to Egypt, and God stands against him to kill him because he has not circumcised his children-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... just like the older generation didn't circumcise the younger generation in the wilderness on their way to the land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Moses obeyed, and then God was with him, but the people of Israel-
Seth: Sephora-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... obeyed on his behalf. [laughs]
David: Oh, yeah, true. Sephora dis- uh, obeyed on his behalf. Uh, but no one obeyed, neither husband or wife.
Seth: Interesting.
David: So no children were circumcised, so God was not with them, or, you know, was against them.
Seth: The other thought that I had was that p- it could even be a sym- not, um, a willful-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the act of disobedience, but a symbolic, um, judgment.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like because we're not in the land, because we know we will be in the land for 40 years, we will not s- circumcise this generation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because it's a symbol of God's judgment against us. This is the uncircumcised generation-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who will not be a part of God's land. So anyway-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all that in the background.
David: All of that.
Seth: Uh, Moses says, "Because you are now in God's land as we were promised, because we've already crossed over the Jordan River, because we've already been set here, we will circumcise ourselves in obedienceTo the law.
David: And not only that, but also in fulfillment of the promise to Abraham-
Seth: Yes
David: ... where circumcision started-
Seth: Yes
David: ... was God promised that he would be a great nation, so it would come from his reproductive organ, a great nation. And so he circumcised his reproductive organ to show that, that promise visibly. And so now th- his great nation is in the land that was promised to him, and they all join him in that visible sign of the covenant. And so this is a, this is a sign to link us back all the way to Genesis 15, that what God promised to Abraham so long ago is finally coming true.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I, I, I don't know if this is a legitimate connection, but even just, like, the bloodiness of circumcision-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... um, compared to the, the bloodiness of the sacrifice of the Passover lamb and spread on the doorposts of the house-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is a symbol of passing over-
David: Right
Seth: ... of God's ra- of G- of the angel of death. So here we have, they've passed over the Jordan, and there's now th- new symbol of blood that kind of d- proves the same thing.
David: Right.
Seth: The r- and he says it this way, "The reproach of Egypt has been rolled away from you."
David: Yes.
Seth: So the reproach of Egypt that came towards them and then killed Egyptians was rolled over, uh, the doorpost, um-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of, of, of the Jewish home that had sacrificed the lamb. And so here you have people obeying bloodily, and the r- reproach of Egypt is being rolled off of them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... both as a symbolic picture of what the Egyptians', uh, disobedience, but also their disobedience in the wilderness.
David: Very interesting. Yeah.
Seth: So.
David: So I wanna say something about that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... reproach-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... language. I think this line is very interesting. So they, the whole nation is circumcised, and once they finished being healed from this very bloody operation, the Lord says to Joshua what you've just said, "Today I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." Um, this word reproach, uh, means shame or taunt. Um, and it's this idea that, uh, gets repeated all throughout the wilderness that, um, Moses brings it up, the people of Israel bring it up. When they are about to die in the wilderness, they say, "Oh, that we would've died in Egypt," or, "What will the Egyptians think of us if we die out here, that our God is fake, and that, like, the, the gods of Pharaoh ultimately prevailed because he led us out into the wilderness to just let us die, that Yahweh brought us out here just so we can die?" And there's this taunt and shame, um, and like, uh, coming from Egypt to the people of Israel. Um, that's one level of it. The other level of it is their past, like, sin and, um, all of the predilections that they got from Egypt of building the golden calf-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and being Egyptian.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, the condemnation and shame and separatedness that that brings between them and Yahweh, and God is saying, "In circumcising you, I'm rolling all of that back. I'm gonna prove that I am a God who is with you and is more powerful than the god of Pharaoh. I've proved that at the Red Sea, and now again at the Jordan River, and I'm cutting out your Egyptness."
Seth: Mm.
David: "I'm cutting out your Pharaohness, I, and I'm-"
Seth: Sweet
David: ... "removing his shame and his rebuke and his reproach and his taunts from you." I, uh-
Seth: That's pretty cool
David: ... I think it's beautiful. And so it makes me think about how then later, actually not even later, Moses talked about circumcision of the heart.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's u- used all throughout the Bible. And I'm just, like, wondering, is, is this a helpful way for us to think about circumcision of the heart, that when the Holy Spirit circumcises our heart, he cuts out our reproach.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He cuts off our shame, all the taunts that the enemy levels against us.
Seth: Yeah, those connections to Egypt and terror.
David: Those connections to Babylon and our own fallen nations that we live in right now, and he's cutting, carving that stuff off of us. Like, I just think it's a beautiful picture that when we put our faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit comes and carves out our shame and our reproach and the taunts that stand against us and is carving out all that is evil in us. I just think it's beautiful.
Seth: Beautiful. It is a, it's, it's really beautiful. And just to even think about how, like, persistent that shame and comparison always was for Israel. It's like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it's this just persistent fact of their wilderness wanderings was, like, they, one, they always wanted to go back to their abusers.
David: [laughs] Yes.
Seth: And two, they were always afraid of being shamed by their pr- their oppressors.
David: Exactly right.
Seth: So I'm like, well, one, that sounds, like, really human.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, that we return to our abusers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and we want our oppressors to feel proud of us strangely.
David: Yeah, it's so weird.
Seth: Like, that, that's such a strange thing in, in, like, in our own hearts, and the Lord's like, "I'll take away all that shame."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I'll destroy your oppressors, and I'll take away the shame. I'll give you new hearts."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's really powerful.
David: And ultimately, this was able to happen, um, not because we're circumcised, and we have something cut off of us, you know, as a payment of blood or whatever. Um, you know, a bridegroom of blood is what [laughs] Zipporah says-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... back in Exodus 4, but because Jesus bore our shame and our reproach. He was taunted for us. Like [laughs] you know, I, I'm just, I'm so blown away by that.
Seth: Beautiful.
David: He was cut off for us. Like, insults and, and derision was hurled at him so that we could just have it cut off of us. I just think it's beautiful.
Seth: It's gorgeous.
David: So then we have this-
Seth: And then fun fact-
David: Fun, oh, oh, yes
Seth: ... before he ro- rolled away the reproach in Hebrew is Gilgal.So that's, so that's what-
David: Oh, that's what it means
Seth: ... that's just, the Gilgal just means rolled away.
David: Well, there we go.
Seth: So anyway, fun fact.
David: Name my, my next child Gilgal.
Seth: I would love that.
David: If it's a, if it's a, if it's a girl, "Hey, Gilgal."
Seth: Gilgal.
David: It's, she's my Gilgal.
Seth: I like it.
David: [laughs] That's terrible.
Seth: I love it.
David: Only a father can make that kind of a joke.
Seth: Um, we'll make it happen. If we get to what? A million subscribers in the next 10 weeks-
David: There we go
Seth: ... we'll name David's child [laughs] Gilgal.
David: Gilgal.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I don't think that's enough impetus for-
Seth: Oh
David: ... this kind of wildfire to spread.
Seth: I think it is.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think it is.
David: [laughs] Who believe-
Seth: Naming rights to a, another human. That's pretty powerful-
David: Pretty powerful
Seth: ... motivation. [laughs]
David: Anyway.
Seth: Anyway, then they celebrate the Passover-
David: Yes
Seth: ... on the day that they were supposed to in on the plains of Jericho-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... foreshadowing, um-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the future battle, and they eat from the land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They eat from the land of milk and honey, and so on the day they eat from the land of milk and honey-
David: Right
Seth: ... the manna stops.
David: And it's fore- I have to say it now that you brought it up. It's foreshadowing Passover in the plains of Jericho. It's foreshadowing because Israel will be completely spared, and Jericho will be judged. Just like in Egypt, the Passover-
Seth: Yep
David: ... spared Israel-
Seth: Yep
David: ... but condemned Egypt.
Seth: There you go.
David: Just that's what's happening here-
Seth: There you go
David: ... is the spirit of God is going to move again-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and judge.
Seth: Which is an excellent segue into the final little moment-
David: Oh, true
Seth: ... of the command of the Lord's army.
David: Oh, that is interesting-
Seth: So, so, so-
David: ... to, to think about the God who killed in Egypt-
Seth: So, yeah
David: ... with this person
Seth: ... so think about the, the angel, the, the, uh, the angel of death in, in Israel. You have this angel that will indiscriminately kill the firstborn-
David: Yep
Seth: ... unless there is blood. So that's, that's, that's the background. You're feasting on the fie- fields of Jordan, of Jericho.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You have this in the back of your mind, and all of a sudden, Joshua is greeted by, uh, an angel.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he says to this angel, who's dressed like he's ready for war, "Are you on our side, or are you r- for our adversaries?" And he responds, "No. [laughs] I am the commander of the army of the Lord."
David: "Hey, Seth, is your favorite color red or blue?"
Seth: "No." [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's what happened here.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah. It, it's, it's kind of c- it's kind of confusing 'cause, like, who is this angel of the Lord?
David: Right.
Seth: And I think we've set up good categories. This is his burning bush moment.
David: Yes.
Seth: This is God.
David: This is God.
Seth: This is God. He tells him take his shoe, sandals off. This is holy ground. This is God.
David: Yeah. Angels don't make places holy.
Seth: No.
David: God does.
Seth: Yes. And so then he asks God, "Whose side are you on?" And God says, "Not yours." [laughs]
David: [laughs] And not theirs.
Seth: "And not Canaan's."
David: "I'm on my side."
Seth: "I'm on my side," uh, which should tell us a whole bunch of things-
David: Yes
Seth: ... about the conquest narratives that we're about to read.
David: Yep.
Seth: God isn't for Israel as a nation and against the Canaanites as a nation.
David: Right.
Seth: He's for himself and his obedience in all nations and, like, obedience to himself in all nations, which is why we have Rahab obeying. We have the Gibeonites obeying in a second. Like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... he's for his name and the worship of Yahweh being proclaimed.
David: Right, which is what he said to Moses in the burning bush. "I'm gonna send you in so that my name-"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "... for the sake of my name, so that it will triumph and get glory over Pharaoh."
Seth: Yeah, and that might not do a whole bunch of work for you to make it, you feel better about the conquest narratives. It doesn't have to.
David: It's not what we're trying to do here.
Seth: We're not.
David: Yep.
Seth: But the point is what it's doing is, like, this is primarily about worshiping the true God of heaven and Earth.
David: Mm. Yep.
Seth: So that's, so that's on one level what it's doing. That's what the work that it's doing for us.
David: Yes.
Seth: On the other level, it shows us how God kinda deals with all of humanity.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, there's, it's the angel of death moment. Like, there's judgment coming against all of h- of humanity. There's an angel of death coming against all of humanity.
David: Oh, yeah. When Joshua approaches him, this angel of the Lord has his sword drawn.
Seth: Yes.
David: You don't draw your sword unless you're going to battle.
Seth: Yeah. It's like the world has a sword drawn against it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so we don't need to impute malicious motives on God's part. We just know the sword's drawn against it because we all die.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, we're going to die w- whether by an angel of death or death. Like, the sword is drawn. We will die, and then when we meet God, our question's probably gonna be the same as Joshua's. "Are you on my side or [laughs]..."
David: Or not?
Seth: "... or not?" [laughs] And he says, "No."
David: "No."
Seth: "I'm on my side."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so how do you escape death?
David: Mm. I don't know, Seth.
Seth: [laughs]
David: How do you escape death?
Seth: Well, the, by the blood of a lamb.
David: Yeah. Oh, they're sitting there with lamb between their teeth when all-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this is still happening.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's blood, uh, from circumcision, blood from lambs, and a sword is drawn.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the angel of death has come back, and whose side are you on? Are you here to kill us, or are you here to kill them? No, I'm here to take the life and enact justice against people who don't have the protection of Yahweh over them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So how do you, how do you escape?
David: How do you get the protection of Yahweh? [laughs] How do you escape the drawn sword?
Seth: You eat the Passover lamb.
David: Yes.
Seth: You find protection in his blood.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then what's beautiful then about Jesus is he takes so many of, like, the problems we have with framing the conversation that way, and then a- he, but God himself becomes the Passover lamb-
David: Yes
Seth: ... so that we can eat him and not experience any death. It's profound.
David: It's amazing. When, when Jesus comes as the commander of the Lord's army-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we say, "Who are you here to kill? Who are you here to judge? The enemies, the Gentiles, or Isr-
Seth: Pharisees. [laughs]
David: ... the Pharisees or Israel, the Jews? Who?" And he says, "No, I'm here to judge myself. I'm gonna-
Seth: Yes
David: ... turn my divine sword on myself on the cross, and that's, that's how you will escape my jus- my justice, is that I will bear it for you." Like, wow. [laughs] That's profoundly beautiful. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we eat the Passover lamb. We ingest him with faith, and we put all of our trust and all of our hope on him, and we just come to him like Joshua came to the commander of the Lord's army, right? And we just say-
Seth: He fell on his face-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and worshiped him.
David: Exactly. We fall on our face, we worship, we say, "I'm your servant. What do you want from me?" And, like, that's what-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful.
Seth: That's Joshua 3 to 5.
David: Joshua 3 to 5. Joshua's the new Moses. Jesus is the new Joshua.
Seth: Jesus is the-
David: Jesus is the commander of the army of the Lord
Seth: ... commander of the army of the Lord, uh, who's not on your side.
David: That's right.
Seth: He's kind of against his own side almost. Yeah, he's like-
David: It's crazy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Well, uh, okay. Well, I'll remind you all, um, if you have any questions about what you heard, um, or a past episode of Joshua, a future episode of Joshua, uh, drop us a line at, uh, podcast, podcast singular-
Seth: Singular
David: ... [email protected]. Send us your question, a little short type, or record yourself asking it, and, uh, we'll do a Q&A later on.
Seth: And just to say thank you, we officially passed 100 reviews on iTunes.
David: Yes.
Seth: So we just, we've loved doing this for you guys, with you guys, for our own sake.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're really humbled that you guys are listening. Thank you for engaging on, uh, iTunes, that more people are hearing about it.
David: Yeah, so if you haven't reviewed yet, please do that. It helps a lot of people find us, so it helps us keep growing and sharing this, uh, this information with people. So thank you all for listening, and we will see you next week in Jericho. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [outro music]
