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Joshua Introduction

About This Episode

The book of Joshua details how God worked through Joshua to fulfill his promises. As God's chosen successor to Moses, Joshua goes where Moses didn't. He enters into the land that God promised Abraham. Seth and David talk about how Joshua points us to Jesus, how the land of Canaan should make us hope for the new heavens and the earth, and offer some initial thoughts on how to understand God's command to "devote to destruction" the land of Canaan.

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How the Book of Joshua Points Us to Jesus: Leadership, Land, and the Promise of Rest

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart open this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast by diving into the Book of Joshua, a text they both admit feeling intimidated by. The holy war commands, the military language, and the question of whether God is guilty of genocide all present real challenges. But so does the opposite problem: the overly simplistic ways Joshua is often taught, reduced to "be strong and courageous" motivational slogans and isolated hero stories. What follows is a rich, theological introduction to the book that traces its themes from Eden to Jesus.

Joshua's Place in the Story of Scripture

The Book of Joshua is the sixth book of the Bible, and it reads almost like a continuation of the Torah. Moses dies in the final chapter of Deuteronomy, and Joshua 1 picks up right where that story left off. By the end of Joshua, the long narrative arc stretching all the way back to Genesis reaches a kind of resolution. Loose ends are tied up — the bones of Joseph, the priestly line of Aaron through Eleazar and Phinehas — and the people of Israel are finally in the land. You simply cannot read Joshua without the Torah behind it.

The backstory is essential. God and humanity lived together in the Garden of Eden, but rebellion brought a curse and exile. God chose Abraham's family out of all the nations, and that family grew until it was enslaved in Egypt. God judged Egypt, redeemed Israel, and led them through the wilderness toward the land of Canaan. But at the border of that land, in Numbers 13 and 14, the people failed. They sent spies into Canaan, and when most of them came back terrified by giants, Israel rebelled and refused to enter. God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness. Only two spies trusted God's promise — Joshua and Caleb. Now, a generation later, Joshua leads the new generation back to the border of Canaan, and the question is whether they will finally enter the land God promised.

Who Is Joshua?

Joshua is not a figure who appears out of nowhere. He is woven throughout the Torah as Moses' close assistant and a man of extraordinary faithfulness. In Exodus 17, while Moses held up his staff and interceded for Israel's victory over the Amalekites, Joshua was the general fighting on the ground. In Exodus 24, Joshua accompanied Moses up Mount Sinai, a place no ordinary Israelite was allowed to go, meaning Joshua had seen the presence of God alongside Moses. Perhaps most remarkably, Exodus 33:11 tells us that after Moses would leave the tent of meeting, "his young aide, Joshua, the son of Nun, did not leave the tent." Joshua was a man gifted in battle, intimate with God's presence, devoted to prayer, and faithful in his witness — the spy who trusted God's promise when everyone else melted in fear.

When Moses died, Deuteronomy 34:9 records a crucial detail: "Now Joshua, the son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him." The same spirit that rested on Moses was transferred to Joshua, validating and deputizing him as the true leader of Israel. Throughout the early chapters of Joshua, the same stories that attended Moses' leadership repeat under Joshua's — a sea is parted, a Passover feast is held, laws are obeyed. This repetition is not coincidence. It is the biblical author's way of demonstrating that God is still faithful, still acting on behalf of His people, still providing a leader through whom His purposes go forward.

Why Leadership Matters — and Why Jesus Is the Point

The emphasis on Joshua as the "new Moses" raises a deeper question: why does the Bible care so much about Israel having a leader? The answer goes back to Eden. God created Adam and Eve as kings and queens, deputized to exercise authority over the earth under God's rule. The picture of what God wants for His world has always included a human leader representing God to His people. Israel was not a democracy or a monarchy at this point — it was a theocracy, God's people under God's rule in God's place. But because the people could not all enter the tent of meeting and hear from God directly, they needed a mediator. Moses was that person. Joshua needed to be shown as that person too.

This is why the Bible's "fascination" with leadership matters. It is not about pulling out management principles. It is about the fact that God's invisible rule requires a visible, Spirit-filled representative to communicate His will, carry out His law, and lead His people into the promises. Moses did this but ultimately failed at the rock in the wilderness. Joshua is shown to be faithful where Moses was not — he enters the land and leads God's people as God's representative.

But every human leader dies, and when Joshua dies at the end of his book, the period of the Judges begins and everything falls apart. This is what makes Jesus such profoundly good news. His name — Yeshua in Hebrew — is literally "Joshua." He is the new Joshua, the new Moses, the leader who repeats all the same redemptive patterns: He crosses through water at His baptism, goes into the wilderness for 40 days, speaks God's law from a mountainside, and obeys God perfectly. Yet Jesus is qualitatively different from every leader before Him. He is not merely God's representative — He is God Himself. In Him, the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. And unlike Joshua, Jesus is the king who dies and rises again, meaning His rule never ends and His Kingdom can never fall apart. He fills all who trust in Him with the same Holy Spirit that empowered Joshua, making every one of His followers a priest and king in His Kingdom.

The Land as a New Eden

The reason crossing the Jordan River and entering Canaan is so important is not primarily military or political — it is theological. The land of Canaan was meant to be a new Eden, a physical place on earth where God and His people could dwell together again. Since Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, God's people had effectively been homeless. Abraham was called out of his homeland and told to go to a land God would show him. His descendants spent 400 years in slavery in Egypt. Even after the exodus, they wandered the wilderness for a generation. Their entire national identity was built around the knowledge that they were promised a home they did not yet possess.

What was at stake as Israel stood on the banks of the Jordan was nothing less than whether God's word could be trusted. He promised Abraham in Genesis 12 that He would give his descendants a land, make them fruitful, and bless all nations through them. The promise was specific — the land of Canaan, beyond the Jordan River. And Genesis 15:16 adds an important timing detail: the Israelites would return "when the iniquity of the Amorites is complete." The conquest was not a political land grab. It was God using Israel to judge the accumulated rebellion of Canaan, just as He used the flood to judge the earth in Genesis — only this time with a scalpel rather than a hammer.

This pattern mirrors the Christian experience today. The New Testament calls those who trust Jesus sojourners and strangers on the earth. Like Israel before the conquest, we know we are promised a home we do not yet possess. Jesus told His disciples He was going to His Father's house to prepare a place for them (John 14). But that place is not a commune in Kansas or a Christian political project. When Jesus returns, He will not make one part of the world new — He will make all things new. The whole earth will become the promised land, and everything built on the foundation of His word will remain. The prophets envisioned this: swords turned into plowshares, weapons of destruction repurposed for God's Kingdom. The hope of the land in Joshua is ultimately the hope of the new heavens and the new earth, where every person regardless of citizenship or background will finally feel at rest, at peace, and at home.

Rest — the Goal Behind the Land

The promise God made to Israel was not only about possessing territory but about rest from their enemies. This concept of rest stretches back to creation. God worked for six days and rested on the seventh, and in Eden, humanity worked within that divine rest. Work and rest were not in conflict — they were married together in a beautiful, satisfying rhythm. But outside of Eden, that rhythm shattered. You cannot rest when you have no home. You cannot rest when you are a slave. You cannot rest when enemies surround you on every side.

What makes the conquest of Canaan so remarkable is the completeness of the rest God provided. Joshua 24 describes it vividly: God gave Israel a land on which they had not labored, cities they had not built, and vineyards and orchards they had not planted. It was not a plot of raw land requiring years of development — it was a fully furnished home with food already on the table. And beyond material provision, there was rest from enemies, peace on every border. For us, Jesus promises the same kind of rest but on an infinitely greater scale. He is preparing a place, and when He returns to destroy the enemies of God — Death, Sin, and Chaos — the cities and gardens and justice He has been building imperceptibly within this world will be revealed as the Kingdom of God has been present all along.

Herem, the Cross, and the Good News in Joshua

The Hebrew word herem — often translated as "the ban," "devoted to destruction," or "totally destroyed" — is one of the most difficult concepts in Joshua. But it is not new to Joshua. The first "ban" happens in Genesis 3, when Adam and Eve are banished from the Garden of Eden and devoted to death because of their disobedience. The herem in Canaan operates on the same logic: evil cannot exist in God's space. Leviticus 18 and Deuteronomy 12 describe the practices of the Canaanites — child sacrifice, sexual immorality, incest — as the natural consequences of the fall in Genesis 3, practices that literally bring death rather than life. These things polluted the land and made it ritually unclean, meaning God could not dwell there. The herem served two purposes: punishment for rebellion and purification of the land so it could be a holy place.

Critically, this was not ethnic cleansing. The very first story in Joshua's conquest is the story of Rahab, a Canaanite prostitute who professed trust in Yahweh and was not only spared but incorporated into the people of God and the genealogical line of Jesus. Conversely, when Achan — an Israelite soldier — kept what was devoted to destruction for himself, God declared that Israel itself would be devoted to destruction. The herem was about worship and obedience, not ethnicity.

The Gospel turn in all of this is stunning. Jesus is the one who was "heremed" for us. He devoted Himself to destruction on the cross so that we would not have to face the coming judgment. God's justice does not demand of the world something He was not willing to demand of Himself. The Jesus who will one day return as a warrior to judge does not carry a sword in His hand — it comes from His mouth. It is His word, not violence, that brings the final herem. And before that day of judgment, He came first to save. Like Rahab, anyone who professes trust in Yahweh — in Jesus — can escape the coming ban and be grafted into the people of God. The Book of Joshua, for all its difficulty, is an invitation to wrestle honestly with the reality of God's holiness and to discover that the good news of Jesus is even better than we thought — and His justice even more serious than we imagined.

Transcript

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We are glad you are joining us as we start a new book today. Seth, how you feeling?

Seth: Feeling great.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We are studying the Book of Joshua.

David: We are studying the Book of Joshua. It's going to be-

Seth: Which, at first, I was intimidated by.

David: Y- I'm still pretty intimidated. [laughs]

Seth: I still feel intimidated by it.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And, um, let's, let's do this.

David: What were you intimidated about?

Seth: Well, one, like, the holy war-

David: Yep

Seth: ... uh, commands and, like, the pretty standard, like, is God guilty of genocide-

David: Yep

Seth: ... question, but also just, uh, a ton of military language, which it's not something necessarily I'm always comfortable with, especially when it's at the hands of God, which is connected to the genocide-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and all those questions. But also, Joshua is just one of those books that I feel like I grew up hearing a lot about in really, like, simplistic ways.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, it's like, "Be like Joshua. Be strong and courageous, and go get 'em, Seth."

David: [laughs] Go-

Seth: And, uh, g- [laughs] and so I was like, I felt like there was, like, a burden on me to, like, undo some of the simplistic re-

David: Mm

Seth: ... like, simplistic understandings of Joshua. Um...

David: Yeah. That's interesting.

Seth: A- yeah.

David: I mean, there's a lot of int- there's a lot of, like, big one-liners or, or one-off stories that people pull out of this book, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, "Be strong and courageous," and then the story of Rahab, and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the marching around Jericho, and-

Seth: And the Gibeonite deception

David: ... and the Gibeonite deception, and the sun standing still.

Seth: I d- have I ever told you about my... I shouldn't... Should I save this Gibeonite story for the Gibeonite podcast?

David: Oh, I mean, probably.

Seth: Or should I drop it right now?

David: And, and no, you should, you should also save it, 'cause now people will have to come back-

Seth: Yes, yes, yes

David: ... to hear the Gibeonite story.

Seth: If you wanna hear a story about how the Gibeonite deception relates to my first date.

David: Oh my g- [laughs]

Seth: You should wa-

David: Now I don't wanna wait.

Seth: You most certainly should tune in.

David: Oh, it's gonna be like weeks until I hear this now. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Oh, my goodness. Well, there you go. I've dug my own grave.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay. Um, so I think it'd be helpful to just kind of position Joshua in the canon of scripture.

Seth: Yes.

David: So, um, Joshua, if you read it straight... If you're reading the Bible straight through, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua-

Seth: Joshua, the sixth book.

David: It's the sixth book. It almost feels like, um, the end of the Torah. Like, even though the Torah is the first-

Seth: Right

David: ... five books of the Bible, um, the Pentateuch, um-

Seth: It feels like it should be included in-

David: It almost feels like it should be-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a sixth because it picks right up where Deuteronomy left off.

Seth: Moses dies in the final chapter of Deuteronomy.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Joshua takes over. Uh, Moses' death is referenced in Joshua 1. Joshua takes over and then does everything that God promised-

David: Right

Seth: ... Moses would happen.

David: Yes, and then the way Joshua ends is, like, a more wrapped up, you know, put a bow on it kind of ending for the story of the people of Israel that has been going on since Genesis. Uh, so I-

Seth: Yeah, and, like, even ties up the loose ends of, like, the bones of Joseph-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that we heard all the way back in Genesis.

David: In Genesis.

Seth: Uh, we hear about A- Aaron and Elea- Azar again-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and Phinehas from, like, all these stories.

David: It's just pulling on all these threads and tying them together-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and being like, "And they were in the land." So that's just, you know, interesting.

Seth: Yes.

David: You, you can't... So I say all that to say you can't read Joshua without the Torah.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: It will not make sense.

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh, and you won't get out of it what you're supposed to.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it might be helpful to give, like, a really brief synopsis of, like-

Seth: The book of Joshua?

David: Like, or like-

Seth: Or the Torah?

David: ... the Torah-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... up to this point.

Seth: Okay.

David: So you have God and man living together in the Garden of Eden, and they get kicked out because of their sin, and a curse falls on the whole world, and-

Seth: So this, even already right there.

David: Yep.

Seth: They were in a land-

David: They were in a land with God

Seth: ... that belonged to the Lord, and they were kicked out of the land because of their sin.

David: Yes. Extremely important.

Seth: Extremely important. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Yes.

Seth: Uh, they build a civilization and a society and families, and God chooses from among those nations of the earth, Abraham.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Abraham's family grows and grows and grows, um, until at one point in time they're enslaved-

David: Yep

Seth: ... to Egypt.

David: Yep.

Seth: Egypt is judged for their oppression of Israel and their, um, like, refusal to bow to Yahweh-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and His plans for His people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He judges them. He kicks Israel out of the Egypt-

David: Of Egypt, yeah

Seth: ... of Egypt, and He-

David: Delivers them, redeems them

Seth: ... rede- redeems them and throws them into the wilderness-

David: Yes

Seth: ... on their way to the Promised Land-

David: Yes

Seth: ... which is the land of Canaan.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, and on the border of the land of Canaan, right before they're about to enter all the land we're about to read out in the Book of Joshua, uh, we, um... They fail.

David: They fail.

Seth: They fail.

David: This is the, this is Numbers 12, 13, and 13 and 14.

Seth: 13 and 14.

David: Yep.

Seth: And they don't enter the land.

David: Right.

Seth: They send spies in. The spies bring back a poor report saying they're, "We're gonna melt in front of them, that, that we look like grasshoppers to them. They're gonna step on us. There's giants over there. We're all gonna fail." The people rebel against Moses' leadership-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... refuse to enter into the land, and as a punishment for their sin, God kicks them out of the land of Canaan-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and into the wilderness-

David: Right

Seth: ... for a period of time.

David: Until, until that, that generation that failed to enter the land all dies in the wilderness, except the two people who, uh, were among the spies who went into Canaan, who said, "Hey, regardless of the fact that there are giants in the land-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... we can take them because God's on our side."

Seth: Yes.

David: And these were Joshua-

Seth: Joshua

David: ... and Caleb.

Seth: And Caleb.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So Josh- that same Joshua-

David: That is, that is this Joshua that we're reading about

Seth: ... is this Joshua. So the Joshua who first spied out the land, said it was good and the Lord was on their side, is now the same one who's taking over after Moses.

David: Right. So the old generation that failed to enter the land dies in the wilderness. Throughout Numbers, you read about this. The new generation takes over, and, um, m- and i- kind of Deuteronomy is Moses' farewell speech, and then the reins pass from Moses and the old generation to Joshua and the new generation.

Seth: Yes.

David: And they're back at the border of Canaan-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and they're about to, hopefully, we think, take the land this time.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: And all of this promise that God would have a people in His place under His rule would come true.

Seth: Yeah, so-

David: And they would be kind of back in a Garden of Eden.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yes.

Seth: Be b- yes. Ex- exactly right.

David: Yeah. So obviously there's some problems. There, uh, is a bunch of evil people living in the land. Um-

Seth: Yeah, and so all the way back in Abraham, the covenant God makes with Abraham-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in Genesis 15, He promises Abraham that his people will live in God's place again.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, they'll live in the Garden of Eden again, but they have to wait for all that period between Genesis 15 and the end of Deuteronomy. And it says this in Genesis 15:16, that the Israelites will return when the iniquity of the Amorites is complete.

David: Yes.

Seth: So we don't quite know what that phrase means, but what we do know is that the reason, uh, part of the reason, uh, why, uh, they are about to conquer this land isn't simply, is not a, a, a political play.

David: Right.

Seth: It's because God is using Israel to judge the sin of Canaan and the Amorites.

David: Right. Much like back in Genesis, the flood was used to judge the whole earth.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The, the armies of Israel are, are more of like the scalpel to the flood's hammer, [laughs] and they are-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... they are cutting out this tiny portion of sin out of the land.

Seth: Right. Yeah, and so it's just really important to ground yourself in Genesis 15 language because it's about sin-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... disobedience to the Lord. It's not about political battles.

David: Right.

Seth: It's not about-

David: Land lust

Seth: ... land lust. It's not about militarism. It's about the Lord protecting His land-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... from sin.

David: Yeah.

Seth: In the same way that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for their sin.

David: Exactly, right.

Seth: The same way that Israel was kicked out of the garden for their disbelief, the Amorites, because of their sin, are gonna be kicked out of God's land.

David: Yes.

Seth: Evil cannot exist in God's space.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's, that's kind of the Book of Joshua in the, the most meta-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... theological level.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, there is evil in the land, and Joshua is coming to bring God's presence and His justice to that land.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So there's a ton of things we wanna jump into here-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, to unpack everything we just said, uh, and then we're gonna go through the book like we always do-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... as well. So I'm excited to talk about this. The first thing we need to ask is, who is Joshua, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Joshua is actually mentioned all throughout-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the Book of Exodus and Numbers and Deuteronomy.

David: Yes.

Seth: He is... Really, he's known as, like, uh, Moses' assistant.

David: Assistant, yeah.

Seth: Assistant is the word that's consistently used. But, like, he r- a really close assistant. Uh, so, like, remember the story where Moses holds up his staff-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and he's, defeats the Amorite, or the Amalekites.

David: As long as his s- hands are up, the battle-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is won.

Seth: So Joshua-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... was the general in that battle.

David: Right.

Seth: So he's on the ground fighting while Moses is in the, is on the-

David: Is interceding

Seth: ... is interceding-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and praying. Uh, that's in Exodus 17.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Exodus 24, when Moses goes up to Mount Sinai to speak-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to the Lord, Joshua goes with him.

David: Right.

Seth: So Joshua has seen the face of the Lord-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... along with Moses.

David: This is a place no one was allowed to go, and it's like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... wait, Joshua got to go up on Mount Sinai and see God?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Crazy.

Seth: And even in Exodus 33, where we talk, or they talk about how Moses' face is shining when he goes into the glory of the Lord.

David: Yes.

Seth: Says this in verse 11, "The Lord would speak to Moses face to face as one speaks to a friend, and then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide, Joshua, the son of Nun, did not leave the tent."

David: Mm.

Seth: So while Moses would go out and lead, Joshua would stay and pray in the tent.

David: Whoa.

Seth: So he's a man who's gifted in battle, who has seen the presence of the Lord in the giving of the law. He is a man who also intercedes and prays on with Moses. And then as we've already said in the Book of N- Numbers, he is the faithful spy-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that goes into the land and believes the Lord's promises, and says, "No, guys, we can take the land. The G- God is on our side."

David: Yep. Yeah.

Seth: That's-

David: I think he also brought the news, uh, or, like, uh, like, of, of Israel's idol worship.

Seth: Oh.

David: Um-

Seth: In, uh-

David: In Exodus 30 or whatever. Anyway.

Seth: When they were-

David: That's in my notes at least

Seth: ... when they were, like, worshiping at the golden calf.

David: Yes.

Seth: He's the one who informs.

David: Yeah. Well, God originally told him-

Seth: Right

David: ... but I think that as he was going down, Joshua is singled out as not being a part of it, and he's instead one who's bringing the report, so he's not inculcated-

Seth: Right. Right, right, right

David: ... with all the sin of Israel. So anyway-

Seth: That should clue you in as a reader. It's like the author of the Pentateuch knew-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the Book of Judges was-

David: Joshua

Seth: ... uh, the Book of Joshua was coming.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, and they knew Joshua would be Moses' successor. So as you read back-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... through Exodus and Numbers, they do their homework to make sure you know that Joshua has consistently been portrayed as a faithful man.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um, and then as Moses dies, we're told a really important thing about Joshua-

David: Mm

Seth: ... in Joshua, in, uh, Deuteronomy 34:9. "Now Joshua, the son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the Lord had commanded Moses."

David: Mm.

Seth: So the same spirit that rested on in Moses-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is transferred to Joshua, and it, um, leads him, guides him, and, like, um, vindicates him or, like, a f- like-

David: Validates him

Seth: ... validates and-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... deputizes him-

David: Yes

Seth: ... as the true leader of Israel, the spirit and the presence of the Lord-

David: Mm

Seth: ... guiding him.

David: Okay.

Seth: So that's Joshua-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the narrative so far.

David: Uh, having thought about, know- knowing we were gonna have this conversation-

Seth: Yes

David: ... uh, and also we're not, I don't wanna go into this because we'll steal from future episodes-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to talk about all the ways that Joshua 1 through 5 repeats Moses' story-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: As Joshua-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to further validate the fact-

Seth: Yeah, so-

David: ... that Joshua is the new Moses.

Seth: So what you're saying is after... We have all these hints throughout Exodus-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and Deu- Deuteronomy and Numbers that Joshua is a worthy successor to Moses.

David: A worthy successor.

Seth: And then in the opening chapters of the Book of Joshua, we see is the same stories that are repe- that Moses experienced happen under Joshua's leadership.

David: Yes. Yep.

Seth: A sea is parted.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, all the same stuff that happens.

David: Right.

Seth: There's a Passover feast.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, it all happens.

David: Yeah. And, like, and beyond that, like, there's all the laws Moses received from God Jo- J- uh, Joshua fulfills.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: And so here's my question that I'm just like, why is this so important?

Seth: That Joshua is-

David: That Joshua's the new Moses.

Seth: Is... Ah. Oh.

David: Like, why... Like, yeah, that's true-

Seth: Right

David: ... and it's good to see, but why is it important?

Seth: Uh, because they're... Like, part of the Biblical story is this Messianic line.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, there is a faithful remnant within the world population-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that will provide salvation, rescue, and the fulfillment of God's promises.

David: Okay.

Seth: Right?

David: So, so, like, uh, as in, like, Israel out of the nations-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but even within Israel, like in the spy story we talked about-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... Joshua and Caleb out of the other 10 spies.

Seth: Yes.

David: There's a faithful remnant inside of the people of God-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that are going to bring about the promises of God.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay. Okay.

Seth: Like, God is always choosing Abraham.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: He's choosing Judah. He's choosing, uh-

David: Jacob over Esau

Seth: ... Jacob over Esau, to continue His promises to bring His people into His land and to give them rest.

David: And he seems to be doing it by choosing specific people and leaders-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... um, deputized with His Spirit-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in this case-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... to lead and accomplish, like, His purposes for the world.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay. Okay.

Seth: And the, the, the function of the repetition-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... is to show you that God's plans and purposes are continuing in the life of the faithful saints, uh, throughout the story.

David: Okay.

Seth: So this is why we always go back into the stories of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and see all the repetitions. All the same sin patterns are there, but also the same stories of redemption and rescue are there as well.

David: Yes.

Seth: So God's always doing the same type of thing with His people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He's always providing rescue. He's always providing leadership. He's always providing His Spirit. And the, uh, plagues that come, like, that, that at- attend Moses also attend Joshua.

David: Right.

Seth: What does that tell us? That God's doing the same thing.

David: Right.

Seth: He's prot- rescuing His people out of slavery, delivering them into freedom, and giving them the land He promised to do. So, like, the repetition of the story should clue you in to the fact that God is still acting on behalf of His people.

David: Mm.

Seth: He's still providing a leader on behalf of His people. He's still doing-

David: Okay

Seth: ... He's being faithful.

David: So maybe there's... Okay, so I don't... I, I'll say it like this, but-

Seth: Okay

David: ... I don't mean it.

Seth: Fair. Fair. Fair.

David: So it's like, it's not so much about the leader and more about the repetition of the story to show God's faithfulness.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the other side of that is, uh, I think there's something about leadership or headship or like-

Seth: Mm

David: ... couldn't Israel have just done this and, like, we didn't need to know about the general? Or like... You know, there s- but there-

Seth: Ah

David: ... seems to be this focus, and then moving into Judges-

Seth: Right

David: ... the issue is there is no leader, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, like, the judges are bad leaders.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, and then it's not until King David sits on the throne that we have some semblance of what was supposed to happen under Moses and Joshua being repeated.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: And so it's like, what is it about the Bible's fascination with an, a leader for Israel?

Seth: Well, I mean, it's... Like, part of it's like it's all humans' fascination-

David: Mm

Seth: ... with leadership. Like, you don't have an organization, you don't have a group of people, you don't have a nation without a leader.

David: Sure.

Seth: You don't have an organization without a CEO.

David: You don't have a kingdom without a king.

Seth: Right. You... The nature of people and groups is to have a leader who represents them, their values, their concerns-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... their safety, and then fights for it, defends them for it, and tries to lead them forward. Like, that's just the nature of human beings together, and I think that's probably because it's the way that the Lord's structured society. Like, the Lord has created humans to be ruled. Like, He is God, and in the garden, He created Adam and Eve, and they-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... reported to Him. Like, they were His citizens, His servants.

David: He also made Adam and Eve like kings and queens.

Seth: And then He deputized them-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to exercise authority in the earth.

David: Mm.

Seth: So it's like authority, uh, and submission to that authority is woven into the creation account-

David: Okay

Seth: ... and, like, leadership in general. So I think it's, like, a human thing, but it's also divinely orchestrated thing.

David: Yeah, so I'm hearing... Yeah, I'm hearing, like... I'm hearing two things in the Garden of Eden thing that's really interesting. Like, one is that, uh, like, God made, deputized Adam and Eve as kings, rulers over-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the land. He gave them dominion. There's all this kingly language.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And the... As they were fruitful and multiplied, as they should have-

Seth: Mm

David: ... they would have built an Edenic kingdom over which they were kings and queens. And so, like, in the very beginning of the story, the picture of what God wants for His world is that there would be a king and a queen ruling over His people-

Seth: Yes

David: ... on Earth.

Seth: That is the Edenic picture.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's the way it should be.

David: Yeah.

Seth: A good king and a good queen leading the people, representing their interest-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in God's place and at rest-

David: Right

Seth: ... in the land.

David: Yeah. Um, uh, so I, I think also it's like I, I, I don't wanna try to make my math go backwards.

Seth: Okay.

David: You know, I'm trying to, like, follow it straight through, but I kinda have to go forward to maybe go back.

Seth: Okay.

David: So clearly when you think about a leader for God's people who will accomplish His purposes, who will, um, like, do what no one else will do and win for His people what no one else could win, you know, it's Jesus.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it has to be Jesus, and He is our king, our prince, our ruler, our leader who accomplishes for us all the promises of God that we never could accomplish for ourselves.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And He leads us into victory.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, uh-

Seth: And the way-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and one of the ways we know that Jesus is God's appointed king-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: Is because he, in his life, repeats the same stories we read about in Exodus-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in Joshua.

David: Right.

Seth: He is in exile-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or he's not... Like, he's a foreigner in a land. He is both God and man. He crosses the Red Sea w- or he crosses the Jordan River-

David: Yes

Seth: ... like Joshua crossed-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the Jordan River. And then Paul or Peter will even say that when Jesus goes into the, the water and the skies rip apart-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that's like Moses and the seas splitting apart-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to provide for the rescue-

David: Right

Seth: ... of God's people. He's called a son of Moses.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He, um, he goes into the wilderness for 40 days-

David: Yes

Seth: ... like Israel goes into the wilderness for 40 years. Like, he speaks to God. He has a Sermon on the Mount, like God has a Sermon on the Mount, like-

David: Through Moses. Yeah

Seth: ... through Moses. So the, part of the way that we know that Jesus is God's appointed messenger is because God is using the same means-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the same storylines, the same rhyming type of history to show it-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to prove it-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to validate him-

David: Right

Seth: ... as a leader. Yeah.

David: I mean, and his name is Joshua.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] We should-

David: [laughs]

Seth: Like, so Jo- Jesus is actually the name Yeshua in Hebrew, which normally we translate it to Joshua.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, in nor- like, if you go, met somebody, a Hebrew friend of yours, and his name was Yeshua, you would call him, like, his English name is Joshua.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So Jesus is-

David: What's up, Josh?

Seth: Jo- Jesus is a, like, a Greek bastardization of-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, Yeshua.

David: Right.

Seth: And so really-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Jesus' name is Joshua.

David: It's just been back translated.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, like, when we, even when we talk about Jesus, he is literally, his name is Joshua.

David: Yes.

Seth: He is-

David: He is the successor of Moses who leads God's people into salvation-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and into the land.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yes. Yes to all that. I think what I'm wrestling with here-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... uh, and I mean, we know each other well.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: No, no, no one loves a good repeated theme like the two of us in the Bible.

Seth: We love a good repeated theme.

David: So I love that. I think it's true. I think it's beautiful that Moses and Joshua and the succession story we're seeing between the two of them as we open the Book of Joshua should lead us to seeing the succession of Jesus as this new leader who is leading his people into-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... victory in the land.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's just true. But I think there's something intrinsic about leadership, the general, the commander-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the king-

Seth: Okay

David: ... that is happening here that I think is good news to us is, like, just as Joshua led his people, Jesus leads us as, as his people.

Seth: He, uh, so do you mean, like, he is the kingly Adam ruling over-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Eden? Like-

David: I mean, it, it just goes back to my question, why the focus on Joshua as the leader, the new Moses? Why is that important? It, it, it, it seems like there is a ethical or something value to ha- Israel having a leader. Why couldn't they just have gone in? And, or if they did, why do we need to hear such a big focus on Joshua? I think the biblical author, I think God is trying to show us something valuable about, about a leader, like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of God's people. And I'm just like, uh, may- maybe I can't quite figure it out.

Seth: Yeah. I mean, what I keep thinking about is, like, we need to be led.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, there's a, a dependency talked about throughout scripture. There's a, a willingness to follow the authority of somebody else normally, like the Lord's authority-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... over our own personal authorities. And especially now, like, our te- our temptation is to be our own authority-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to our, our autonomous decisions, um, about our body, ourselves, our God, our King. That's what's, like, what I want for myself. Um, but what the story of Joshua does when it highlights these leaders is say, no, no, no, we, being led is the way we experience salvation, not leading ourselves on our own, but being led-

David: Yes

Seth: ... does that.

David: Yeah. Yes. I think you're right. I think we were made to be led. I think that's, like, the deputization that happened at Eden even was man ruling under God's rule.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I think that's what's happening. And what was so unique about Moses's leadership that needed to be succinctly and definitely passed along-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... was the fact that he talked to God and communicated what God said.

Seth: Yes.

David: Would Joshua do the same? That's the question, is would Joshua be a theocratic representative? Because-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because Israel at this point is not a monarchy. It's not a democracy. It is a, what's called a theocracy.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It is God's people under God's rule in God's place. They are to do what God says.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so the question is, Moses led us just fine under God's rule. He listened to God perfectly, wrote the law, gave us the covenant.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He, he, he was God's representative on earth, so we knew how to be in God's government because we had Moses as our leader. So now the biblical author's going through great pains-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to show us that Joshua is that new leader who hears from God. He's hung out in the tent of meeting.

Seth: Right.

David: Hears from God. We're gonna see him run into the, the commander of God's army, you know-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... later on in Joshua, and, like, he always obeys. He always goes out. Like, he's doing, he's being God's mediator.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: He's being God's representative so that Israel could be God's people in God's place, so they could be in God's theocracy.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, I think that is why it's important. I, I'm just realizing all this.

Seth: Maybe, maybe another way to say it is I've heard enough leadership parables-

David: Mm

Seth: ... like in Christian leadership books, Christian, like, Christian entrepreneurship books that look at the story of Joshua, and they just try to pull out leadership principles.

David: Right.

Seth: Be a leader like Joshua.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And here's 10 ways that Joshua's a leader that you should leader your people.

David: Right.

Seth: What you're saying is like, well, the important fact is not the mechanics of how Joshua led.

David: Right.

Seth: It's that he spent time praying and asking the Lord for direction and waiting on the Lord's hand and his power. Is that what you're saying?

David: That's an implication of what I'm saying.

Seth: Okay.

David: What I'm saying is that God is providing a man, a, a, a leader to be over his people to communicate his will and rule to his people because God is invisible.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And-

Seth: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes

David: ... and, like, if he is the king of his people, he needs a physical ruler over his people to, to carry out his will, and that person, we need to be able to hear from him, uh, to obey him, to trust him, you know, to, to represent him accurately.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Moses proved to be that person-

Seth: Right

David: ... uh, ex- except for a few little faults.

Seth: Yep. Yep.

David: Uh, Joshua is being shown to be that person.

Seth: And that's an important point right there.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's like Moses failed-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in a really specific instance at this rock where he was shown to be faithless.

David: Yes.

Seth: Joshua-

David: He broke faith with God

Seth: ... Joshua is sh- we're sh-You're saying Joshua's shown to be faithful over and over again throughout the Exodus story, and in the first couple chapters of Joshua we'll see the same thing and he will do what Moses couldn't do.

David: Right.

Seth: He will go into the land and be God's leader in that place-

David: Yes

Seth: ... ah, over God's people.

David: Yes.

Seth: Okay.

David: So we just nee- I think w- I think I'm finally circling around to my question and finding an answer to it, is that it's just like God is going to rule his people in his place.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But in order to do that, we need someone to do the leading because we're not all able to listen to God. Like, because, you know... Or at least, I should say Israel. Israel was not all able to listen to God. They weren't clean, they weren't obedient, they couldn't go into the tent of meeting because only, ah, you know, only Joshua, you know, or the high priests were allowed in there. And, and so they needed someone to listen to God, to hear what he wanted, and then to come out and lead.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because, like, God was the king.

Seth: Yes.

David: And they needed a ambassador from the king to lead them. I was just trying to figure out why-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is this leadership thing so important?

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: And I think this is it.

Seth: Yeah, and so he-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when Joshua, and Joshua as a good and godly leader provides victory, safety, provision, land and God's presence for his people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Jesus does the same, right?

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, Jesus is Joshua.

David: Yes.

Seth: His name is Jo- the new Joshua-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... comes in and provides safety, leadership, his price, his presence. But what Jesus does is kinda qualitatively different-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... than what Joshua does. We're told in the very beginning about Joshua's leadersh-ship that he is filled with the Spirit, and only the Spirit-filled leader can lead God's people to stay in God's land-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and listen to God. And like you kind of like corrected yourself, it's like, well, Israel couldn't all listen to the Lord.

David: Right.

Seth: But what's fundamentally different about Jesus's leadership, so not only does he destroy all principalities and powers-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... not only does he provide us access into the Lord's presence, build that temple within us, he fills us with the same Holy Spirit that Joshua-

David: Yes

Seth: ... had. At the very end of the Book of Joshua, this is important, he kinda repeats what Moses says. He says, "You're not gonna be able to fulfill everything that God said. You're gonna fail. You're gonna fail at this, you're gonna all- you're gonna intermarry with people, and that intermarriage is gonna lead to idolatry, and that idolatry is gonna lead you to fa- like, fall away from the promises of God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and you're gonna be spit out of the land just like you spit out all these Amorites and Canaanites." What the Lord does in his leadership is not just clear the land away, he, like, clears our hearts away.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He gives us that same Holy Spirit so that we all can be leaders and kings in his kingdom. What is... Like, a nation of k- [laughs] of, like, priests and kings.

David: Yes. Right.

Seth: That's the hope-

David: Yes

Seth: ... of the Book of Moses. And so what Jesus does for us is he not only, um, is our leader, he makes us leaders like Joshua.

David: Right.

Seth: And allows us to fulfill the mission the way that Joshua did as well.

David: That's right. He restores the kingship that was originally given to Adam in the Garden of Eden-

Seth: That's right

David: ... to all people, so that we all could go into the tent of meeting and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... commune with God like Joshua did-

Seth: Yes

David: ... because the tent of meeting has become our very bodies.

Seth: Yes.

David: Because the Holy Spirit dwells within us.

Seth: And like Joshua pushed back the darkness and the immorality of the land, we have now been deputized to go into all the world and preach-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the good news of the gospel, teaching them to obey-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the commands of the Lord.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So what is the hope that, like, they're obeying the law in the promised land. Jesus deputizes all people, not just one person, to do that.

David: Yes.

Seth: To create a new Eden on the earth, to teach the law of God, to push back sin, and create people that will obey him.

David: Yes. And I think what happened was in Jo- and, and, and I don't wanna overstate the, this case here, but Joshua led, um, whenever they were successful, an obedient people.

Seth: Mm-hmm. That's right.

David: They, they were an obedient people, but they had a leader.

Seth: Yes.

David: And, and I think that... I, I, I wanna, I don't wanna-

Seth: Mm

David: ... overemphasize our new kingship-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... to the detriment of, like, I think we're on a really cool trajectory there-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to see Jesus as the king.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, the leader that we need, the, the go-between between God and man-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... who would give us his will, tell us what to do, ah, lead us to victory, you know, because he was God himself.

Seth: Yeah. Jesus is the king that never dies.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's the important thing about all the leaders in the Old T- all the leaders ever.

David: And he died. [laughs]

Seth: Is they all die, and he died, and he died, and he died. Genesis 6.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And amazingly-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... our Lord rises from the dead.

David: Right.

Seth: He forever rules and acts as a leader for us.

David: Mm.

Seth: So, like, if there is something special about a leader that, like, embodies the soul of a nation or a people that can push people towards the ideal of what they were created to be and, like, how the Lord-

David: Yes

Seth: ... has designed them to be in God's place, normally those hopes and aspirations die with the leader.

David: That's why assassination attempts are so prevalent among powerful leaders.

Seth: When you have a king that can n- is always ruling, that ideal always goes forward. It can never be defeated.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, God's always accomplishing his good purposes-

David: Right

Seth: ... for redemption, rescue, justice, and the end of darkness.

David: Yes, and, yeah.

Seth: Always.

David: And this tension is in Joshua itself.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: In the middle of Joshua, it's, we hear that Joshua is, like, out of vigor, but the land is at peace.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But he's, like, wearing out.

Seth: Yeah, he's about to die.

David: He's getting old. He's g- he's about to die. And, and, and then at the end of Joshua when he actually does, like, die, Judges picks up and it's after the death of J- a- after the death of Joshua, and then things just go downhill.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because the ideals of this man, the leadership of this man, died with him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so Jesus is the leader who never dies, is, is really good news.

Seth: A k- a king holds the kingdom together.

David: Yes.

Seth: And Jesus is the only king that doesn't die.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Every other king dies and the kingdom falls apart.

David: Right.

Seth: Except for Jesus.

David: Yes. Yeah. I, I, I guess I just... I wanna pick apart all of this. Uh, I would just, I guess, e- encourage everyone to go meditate on all the, all the ways that Moses and Joshua led the people of God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That they communed with God and heard from God, and enacted God's policies-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and carried out God's law, and kept themselves holy.

Seth: Mm.

David: Jesus did all these things perfectly.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: He... And, and like even interesting about the small details.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He goes away and prays in the morning.

David: Yes.

Seth: He is in the temple at 10 years old.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, like, in his father's house, he, uh, speaks new laws-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... from the mountainside.

David: Right.

Seth: He o- fulfills all the law. He obeys it perfectly. Like, he is a new Moses, he is a new Joshua, obeying and-

David: Yes

Seth: ... leading his people properly.

David: But, like, different in kind-

Seth: Yes

David: ... because he's not God's representative, he is God himself.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, in him, the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That we do not need the representative anymore because the, we have the real thing in Jesus.

Seth: Mm. Yeah.

David: Like, the reason it always broke in, w- whether it was Moses or Joshua or the judges or the kings, was because the leader was a representative. But in Jesus, we finally have the real God living with and leading his people here on Earth and forever. [gentle music]

Seth: Okay, so we've talked about who Joshua is and how-

David: Mm

Seth: ... Joshua is like Moses, and how Mos- Jesus is like Joshua. Uh, but we really kinda need to, like, set the groundwork for why go into the land at all.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, why is, like, crossing the Jordan River and getting into the land of Canaan so important to Israel, um, period?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, and we've hinted at it as, as a new Eden.

David: Right.

Seth: But, like, let's get into, like-

David: So explicitly, number one, biblically, theologically speaking, the most important reason why taking the land is a big deal is because it, it is the new Eden. Like, that, that's a gigantic deal.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um-

Seth: And most people don't know that about-

David: Right

Seth: ... Scripture. Like, the land of Canaan is supposed to be where God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... dwells.

David: Yes.

Seth: That you walk with him in the cool of the day again. Like, that's a, that's a big deal.

David: It's a huge deal, that God is trying to secure a place where he and his people can live together, like, physically on Earth.

Seth: And in the Old Testament, that was, like, a geographic-

David: Yes, place

Seth: ... political, theo-political border.

David: Yeah. Now, the idea was that once they took the land, then it would grow and cover the face of the earth. Whereas-

Seth: Which is what God promises-

David: Yes, to Ab-

Seth: ... to Abraham.

David: Yeah, to Abraham. Uh, you know, it's like you think of that, like, a, a... What, what do you call that? Whenever a country goes and, like, annexes another country and establishes their-

Seth: Imperialism?

David: Imperialism.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Yeah. It's like imperialism.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, but th- this is, like, the most gracious form. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Like, you actually would want to be assimilated into this kingdom. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Uh, anyway, and so, uh, Eden is a very real part of why taking the land is a big deal. Um, it's probably the biggest part.

Seth: Right.

David: But-

Seth: So-

David: ... more in the focus of Joshua-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is, is God going to be true to his word, which was his promise to Abraham in Genesis 12, that he will take him into the land, and he will give them a land, and when they're given the land, he will be fruitful and multiply, and all nations will be blessed. So the, the... what's on the line here, you know, obviously, will, will we ever dwell with God again?

Seth: Yeah.

David: But what's on the line here is, is God's word true?

Seth: True.

David: Can God be taken at his word that he promised to Abraham-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or will his promises fail?

Seth: And then even personally, it's like Israel has functionally been homeless since Eden.

David: Uh-

Seth: Once they sin-

David: Yes

Seth: ... God's people have not had a home.

David: Yes.

Seth: They've wandered in the wilderness. They've been in this land, they've been in that land. Abraham a co- had a couple outposts, and they were in slavery for 400 years.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, they-

David: Since the call... I would say, like, yeah, I, I, I would say they, they were, they were homeless i- insofar as they did not have a land with God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um, Abraham had a land.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, but he was called out of that land.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And from that moment-

Seth: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... of calling Abraham, he said, "Leave your, leave your people, uh, your father's house and all these things, and go into a land that I will show you," is what God says to Abraham.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so since that time, they've been nomads.

Seth: So I wonder... Just think about that. Like, there is no real nation on the Earth that I can think of that has a national identity apart from a political border.

David: Yeah, there are some nomadic groups, but-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I think they function inside of political borders-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and that maybe necessarily don't, aren't tied to a city.

Seth: So it's just, it's just fascinating to me that you have this really strong, cohesive identity as an Israelite-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... as a Jew, and for centuries and centuries and centuries, you had no home.

David: Right.

Seth: You had no homeland.

David: You did, but they did. They had a homeland, but it wasn't theirs yet.

Seth: It wasn't theirs yet. So your-

David: They would... Yes

Seth: ... entire identity as a people is l- is knowing you are homeless and waiting to get the home.

David: That's right.

Seth: So, like, in Egypt, for 400 years, the story, the foundational founding fathers' stories of their nation is the realization that they are homeless and nationless, and know that they're promised a home.

David: Right.

Seth: And they don't have it yet.

David: Yeah. Their, their i- their national identity was tied up in the fact that this land of Canaan would one day be theirs.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But it wasn't yet.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Which is just, like, just, like, we just... I, let me just draw a straight line real quick-

Seth: Go for it

David: ... to be like, that is how we live today as Christians.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, we know that we will inhabit the new heavens and the new Earth with God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But we just don't have it yet.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like we are homeless.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I mean, like, the New Testament calls us sojourners and strangers and aliens on this earth.

Seth: Yes.

David: Because we, like Israel, are identified nationally by where we will one day inhabit, but we don't have it yet.

Seth: It's like we- we're dual citizens.

David: Yes.

Seth: But only one of our citizenships is actualized, like, is-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, physically real.

David: Right.

Seth: So it's like, yes, we're American citizens-

David: Right

Seth: ... Chinese citizens, but we're also citizens of the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of God is coming, but not yet-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... around. It's not yet in America.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's not yet in China.

David: And you're supposed to let, and you're supposed to let that prolaptic or, like, that futureKingdom citizenship overshadow, dominate, control the one that feels more real, the American citizenship.

Seth: And so I think Israel probably got that identity far better than we do because-

David: Yes

Seth: ... our national identity is really strong. We have a-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... really strong... We have strong leaders, strong forms of government, like ideologically-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... we're bound together by certain cultural values and whatever else.

David: It's the air, it's the air we breathe.

Seth: It's the air we breathe.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So for Israel to c- to never be in the homeland that they were promised-

David: Physically

Seth: ... physically-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is like all they hope... Like that's what they hope for.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's the air they breathe. Like the way that we bre- in America breathe individual rights-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and freedom, they long one day we will be home.

David: Yes. And so that's what's on the line here-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... as they are entering the land is will they have a home? Will God be good to His promises? Will they ever be in God's place, uh, under God's rule again?

Seth: Yes.

David: Like that's what the hope is for this land.

Seth: And specifically, God promised them the land of Canaan.

David: Yes. Specifically.

Seth: So specifically, so they always knew geographically beyond the Jordan River, that was supposed to be theirs.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And as we mentioned before, they were victims of circumstance and the oppression of, uh, Pharaoh and whatever else, but they were also waiting for God's timing.

David: Yes.

Seth: As Genesis 15 and 16 said.

David: As Genesis 15 said. Yep.

Seth: They were waiting for the iniquity of the Amorites to be-

David: Yep

Seth: ... fulfilled.

David: Abraham was told they would go into, uh, slavery into a nation they don't know for 400 years.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so they've been waiting.

Seth: Yeah.

David: They've been waiting.

Seth: Yep, yep. Um, and so before... 'Cause that, that leads kind of neatly to like this idea of harem-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... which is the kind of like people confuse with genocide fairly frequently. But before we get there-

David: Okay

Seth: ... the promise of the land-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is that's what we're, that's what they're af- that's the hope.

David: That's the hope. Yes.

Seth: But als- not simply possession of the land, rest from their enemies.

David: Rest in the land.

Seth: So like back to the Garden of Eden.

David: Yes.

Seth: Go- they worked for six days and then rested on-

David: That's, that's what God-

Seth: ... the seventh

David: ... that's the, that's, that's what God did.

Seth: That's what God did.

David: Yes.

Seth: He rested on the seventh. And since that day, they had been in, Israel's been in patterns of work and rest, work and rest, probably except the time they were in Egypt, where that was interrupted potentially. Like, uh, who knows?

David: Uh, no, we're not, we're not given Sabbath commands before the Mosaic law.

Seth: We're just told that the-

David: We're told that-

Seth: ... Mosaic law points back to it.

David: Yes

Seth: That this is the way that we should be.

David: We have no evidence that Israel was doing those things.

Seth: Okay.

David: Or that, that Seth or, you know, any of their-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... descendants were engaging those patterns. I think what we- we're supposed to see in the Eden narrative is, um, God worked for six days and then rested.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then we hear the story of man, that man is working inside of God's rest.

Seth: Mm. Right, right, right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which we've talked about as the fulfillment.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, yeah.

David: That is perpetual Sabbath-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that we can, that there is a marriage of work and rest-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that is beautiful and satisfying. And like that-

Seth: Our work is our rest and our rest is our work.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Yes. And, and yeah, we, the- they're not in conflict. And that was Eden.

Seth: That was Eden.

David: Yes.

Seth: But-

David: And so-

Seth: ... outside of Eden-

David: Outside of Eden, God is, God, through the Sabbath commands, is trying to give fallen humans some semblance of that work-rest balance.

Seth: Right.

David: Work for six days.

Seth: Toil for six days.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Rest for a day.

Seth: Right.

David: But like rest, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And like [laughs] yeah, and so, so yes. So the, the... But it's, you can't rest when you are, when you don't have a home.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: There's nowhere to rest. Uh, you can't rest when you're a slave-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... because you have to work every day. You can't rest whenever you don't have your own fields, whenever you don't-

Seth: Mm.

David: Like you have-

Seth: Right

David: ... to have a place in order to rest.

Seth: And then you can't rest if you're constantly under threat from other enemies.

David: That's right. If, if there's toil on every side or, or, or what, what, what's the word? Torment on every side, or-

Seth: I don't know

David: ... I can't remember. I'm trying to remember. But anyway.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You have enemies on every side-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... all around you. And yeah, you can't rest when that's going on either.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So they're, they don't have a home. They don't have farms. They don't have houses. They don't have vineyards. So they need a place to rest, but then also they need peace to rest.

Seth: Yes.

David: There needs to not be warring, uh, nations trying to kill them while they're laying their heads on their pillows.

Seth: Right. And so the promise that God gives to Israel is both for a land and for that rest.

David: That's right. Yeah.

Seth: And what he says is, uh... Um, it's like, I wanna find the cities that we did not plant here. He says, "I gave you a la- land on which you had not labored and cities that you had not built, and you dwell in them. You eat the fruit of vineyards and olive orchards that you did not plant." And then he goes on to say that now they were at rest from their enemies. Oh, it's on verse, uh, eight and nine. That's, it's-

David: Of Joshua what?

Seth: Of Joshua 24.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: Uh, there's rest from your enemies.

David: Yes.

Seth: The, the promise is a land, and then you don't even have to cultivate the land.

David: It was already planted.

Seth: You don't have to build cities.

David: They were already built.

Seth: You don't have to cultivate an orchard for multiple years.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You can just be in the land-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and be at rest.

David: It's rest. Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, it's like you, uh, not only... I'm not gonna sh- just take you to a plot of land where you have to construct a house.

Seth: Yes.

David: Uh, you're gonna move into a fully furnished apartment. [laughs] Like and there, and you have, and there's like food on the table already.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's, uh, similar but much less... It's, it's much greater than what I just experienced. I, I just moved.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: And there was a moving, moving company that put all my things out for me.

David: [laughs] Yeah.

Seth: So it's like I had this expectation that I have to do all this unpacking and do all this kind of stuff. And I had to do a little bit of that, but like I could just rest.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: 'Cause they did most of the work.

David: Right.

Seth: And so like the Lord's providing so much better than my moving company did. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: But like that's like... Anyway.

David: Yes. Um, and so I mean, the, the good news here for us, um, is, is that Jesus is finally bringing us into the land. Like that there is a land that Jesus is bringing us to. I mean, you think about what he said in John that-

Seth: When we say land with Jesus-

David: Mm. Uh, yeah

Seth: ... we mean-

David: I'm getting there.

Seth: Okay. Sorry.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay.

David: So in John-

Seth: In John

David: ... he says, "I'm going to my Father's house to prepare a place for you."In my father's house, there's lots of space.

Seth: Mm.

David: You know, there's-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... unlimited space.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, and Jesus said that He's going to return and establish that place. And so when we talk about the land that Jesus is going to build for us, it is not that we're gonna start over with the Eden project.

Seth: Mm.

David: We're not gonna start over with the Canaanite project, which would be taking over a small portion of geographical space-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and then-

Seth: Got it

David: ... cleaning that up and spreading that around the world.

Seth: Right.

David: Jesus is-

Seth: It's not like we're gonna go somewhere in the middle of Kansas and-

David: Right

Seth: ... start a little, uh, commune.

David: That's right.

Seth: And that commune's gonna grow and grow and grow and grow and grow.

David: Right.

Seth: Or it's not even like we're gonna get enough a- a- not, it's not like we're gonna get enough Christians in American politics-

David: Right

Seth: ... and then our kingdom's gonna expand from-

David: Right

Seth: ... Christian America. That's not-

David: That's right

Seth: ... that's not the hope.

David: No, the hope is that Jesus is actually going to bring the consummation of what Eden hoped for, what Canaan hoped for, and He's going to fill the earth with His glory, scripture says. He's going to come and He's gonna say, "Behold, I make one part of the world new." No. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's gonna say, "Behold, I make all things new."

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's gonna come and make the whole earth His dwelling place when He returns.

Seth: In the same way that God provided vineyards that, and orchards they didn't plant, cities they did not build, land that had already been terraced and landscaped, Jesus is going and preparing a place for us.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But that preparation, it's like, it is actually here on the earth.

David: Yes.

Seth: And this whole world will become the promised land.

David: Yes.

Seth: This physical world will become the new promised land.

David: Right.

Seth: And Jesus is getting all the building materials ready, all the cities are being built-

David: Yep

Seth: ... all the homes are being built.

David: That's right.

Seth: And the day that He comes back and destroys our enemies, like Israel destroys the enemies of God, all those cities and vineyards and gardens that Jesus has prepared, like, land on earth.

David: Will be for us.

Seth: They'll be for us.

David: Yeah. You ever, like, look at, like, a fancy resort and you're like, "Man, I, I wish I was..." Like, they'll-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... just be like a place you can go.

Seth: Well, it also reminds me of Jesus' commands about how everything that's not built on the foundation of Him and His words-

David: Right

Seth: ... will be purged with fire.

David: Yep.

Seth: And only the things that are made with stone will remain.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's almost as if, like, the, the world that we live in as Christians and the organizations we build and the justice we see-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, God is building it around us imperceptibly right now.

David: Yep.

Seth: He's preparing that home for us here on the earth while we live on it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then when everything else gets swept away, we're gonna see, like-

David: The Kingdom of God

Seth: ... the Kingdom of God. [laughs]

David: That, that has been ever present.

Seth: We're gonna realize it wasn't, like, all urban blight-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and it wasn't all, like, drought and, or dust bowls.

David: Yes.

Seth: It was actually the preparation for new gardens and new cities-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and the cities that are already there to flourish and come to-

David: Yes

Seth: ... life for the first time.

David: One, one, one game, like, it's like a pro- we called it, like, a prophetic game.

Seth: Okay. [laughs]

David: It, not in, like, a spiritual way-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but in more like a social justice way-

Seth: Okay

David: ... uh, that me and some friends used to play in college, was we would look at something and say, "What will that be used for when the kingdom comes?" And we would look at, like... We, I remember protesting outside of a bank building, Chase Tower downtown one time, because of a corrupt politician and his being in cahoots with this bank, and we were like, we did this stakeout for, like, days.

Seth: Ah, this is a side of David Bowden I... [laughs]

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. No. [laughs]

David: And we would just wax eloquently about, like, what will this bank building be used for-

Seth: Mm

David: ... when the Kingdom of God comes? Like...

Seth: This is what the prophets do, right?

David: Yes. It, it's exactly what the prophets do.

Seth: Swords will be turned into plowshares.

David: Plowshares.

Seth: Like, it's like the weapons, the things that we use for destruction on this earth will be used for God's purposes.

David: Yes.

Seth: And the things that we build that are beautiful on this earth will become even more beautiful-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when the Lord returns.

David: So it's just like, that's just, that's what the new heavens and the new earth... I mean, I hate, I hate to even say will look like, because-

Seth: Right

David: ... we have done the worst job painting-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... a picture of something so good. Um, but hopefully it just stirs your affections for the land that Jesus will bring.

Seth: And, and maybe, to go back to the personal analogy, imagine finally feeling at home.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I mean, like, I'm a missionary kid.

David: Yep.

Seth: Uh, they call us third culture kids.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, we're kind of this blend of two cultures and never really feel at home in one. Think about the number of immigrants in our country who fall under the same rubric, or even second and third generations who have a ton of ties to one ethnic identity, and then also their identity is American citizenship.

David: Think about the elusiveness of the so-called American dream.

Seth: Yes.

David: That you think you're in the perfect place, and that if you just had the white picket fence and blah, blah, blah, you would finally be happy, and you get it, and you aren't.

Seth: And you aren't. J- think about the ways that we feel discontented with our homelands.

David: Yes.

Seth: Whether, like, our political tensions are a product of the fact that we don't think this is home yet.

David: Yep.

Seth: We both have different visions of home-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and we're fighting with each other over our vision of home.

David: How to get it.

Seth: And then one day, the Lord will come and make us feel at home.

David: Mm.

Seth: His land, His kingdom will come, and all of us, regardless of our citizenship, regardless of our immigration status, regardless of our political leanings, will feel perfectly at peace, at rest, and we can finally be home. [gentle music]

David: So now we're going to leave the-

Seth: Beautiful

David: ... beautiful pearly gates [laughs] of the new heavens and the new earth, uh, which don't have pearly gates. Um.

Seth: What? [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: That scared me. [laughs]

David: It's a metaphor. Okay. Uh, you'll have to, we'll have to wait till we get to Revelation.

Seth: To Revelation.

David: Um, anyway, so-

Seth: I'm deeply offended. [laughs]

David: You should be deeply offended. We lost so many listeners just now.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I believe in the pearly gates.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay.

Seth: I feel better.

David: Okay.

Seth: I feel safe.

David: I'm just gonna leave that there in tension.

Seth: Great.

David: Uh. [laughs]

Seth: Unresolved tension.

David: Unresolved tension. Um, so let's-

Seth: Until the Book of Joshua.

David: Until the Book of-

Seth: Until the Book of Revelation. [laughs]

David: Uh, we're just, we're just stalling.

Seth: Continue with your thought, David.

David: We're stalling here.

Seth: We're stalling. It's, uh, fine.

David: Uh, so we, we've mentioned it a couple times. There's this Hebrew word, herem.

Seth: So your Bible can translate it as a ban-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... uh, devoted to destruction. Is-

David: Totally destroyed

Seth: ... totally destroyed is the way that I read it most often.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Um, and it's first found in the Book of Leviticus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Right?

David: I think so.

Seth: Uh, let me make sure that that is correct and find it for us, but-

David: It's not gonna be in that book.

Seth: I wrote it down.

David: Oh, okay. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: He's flipping through a single volume of Joshua, and I'm like, "Let me find it in Leviticus." It's your, it's in your notes.

Seth: But why don't you go ahead and, like, define it for us, uh-

David: Yeah. S- so the idea of herem, um, uh, I would say literally translated is, is, it's called the ban, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: I- it's, it's, it is you are not to touch it. It is, it is devoted to the Lord. Um, you, y- you are... It's taboo, [laughs] right?

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: It's banned. And so, um, something, like you could, you could... Uh, like what would be an example of something that was banned from them other than, like-

Seth: May-

David: ... before we talk about complete destruction

Seth: ... maybe, like, the word banished is helpful. Like, 'cause, like-

David: Maybe

Seth: ... j- in English, there's like... So, like, in the Garden of Eden-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... there was a ban. Adam and Eve were banned-

David: Banned from-

Seth: ... from the Gar-

David: ... the Garden of Eden. That, yes, yes

Seth: ... they were, they were kicked out of the Garden of Eden. They were, in a sense, devoted to destruction.

David: Right.

Seth: They were devoted to death-

David: To death

Seth: ... at the Gar-

David: Yes

Seth: ... at, at the gates of the Garden of Eden.

David: That's right.

Seth: So the first ban happens-

David: In Genesis 3

Seth: ... in Genesis 3.

David: That's helpful.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's really helpful. So, um, uh, like, so this can apply to, um, there are certain spoils of war that Israel would have inherited, um, by nature of their conquest of the-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... land of Canaan that God said is banned. So instead of taking it for themselves, they are either to completely destroy it, which is one way to keep yourself from touching something-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or devote it to the Lord, which is the same idea. It's just two ways to do it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So you can devote something to the Lord by completely destroying it, sacrificing it, or you can devote it to God by giving it to the tem- the temple-

Seth: And, and there's some-

David: ... the tabernacle

Seth: ... instances where, like, gold is devoted to the Lord.

David: Yes.

Seth: So if you read the tabernacle, des- there's a description of the tabernacle-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in the Book of Leviticus. You'll know that a whole bunch of the tabernacle is covered in gold-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and precious gems. So those spoils could be devoted to the Lord, not for personal use, not for personal gain-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... but for the, the, uh, the honoring of the Lord-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and his temple-

David: That's right

Seth: ... and proving the point of the tabernacle, that God's presence dwells with his people.

David: That's right.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's right. Um, so it can go from the spoils of war-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but then it can also go all the way up to the people in the land-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that they have been devoted to the Lord for destruction because of their sin. Or another way to say it, maybe even softer [laughs] would be that they are banned from the land. If this place in Canaan was to be a holy place where God and man could dwell together, it could not be impure. It could not be unclean. It could not be full of sin. This is what Leviticus is all about.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so in order for that to take place, these people needed to be banished from the land. They needed to be driven out of the land-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because of the horrible things that they were doing.

Seth: Yeah. That's, that's exactly right. So you have the spoils of war can be devoted to the Lord or devoted for destruction. That includes livestock.

David: Yes.

Seth: And, or the people can be destroyed-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... banned from the land.

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: So again, what we're seeing is a parallel to the Garden of Eden.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: In the same way that Adam and Eve were vomited or kicked out of the Garden of Eden-

David: Right

Seth: ... the way the other place in the scripture will say, "The land vomits them out."

David: Yes.

Seth: "The Lord vomits..." Like, they're being kicked out of God's promised land.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: This is God's holy place, and death will rule over them the way that it ruled over Adam and Eve-

David: That's right

Seth: ... if they do not, uh, submit to the Lord-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or obey the Lord or worship Yahweh. And so that's important to add that caveat because actually the first story we hear about, so, like, okay, 'cause the, the, the, the, the tension, the difficulty there is like, wait, God telling us to kill everybody in the land?

David: Right.

Seth: Not everybody.

David: Mm.

Seth: Because the very first story we have is the story of Rahab.

David: Right.

Seth: She is a Canaanite. She lives in the land. She has been devoted to destruction, and she is shown mercy.

David: Yes.

Seth: She is incor- not, and not just shown mercy as a servant or a slave. She becomes part of the Kingdom of God. Her and her entire family-

David: Yes

Seth: ... now inherit and receive the blessing and victory that all of Israel does.

David: Right.

Seth: So what that should signal to everybody listening, this isn't a ethnic battle.

David: Nope.

Seth: This isn't a political battle. This is about worshiping Yahweh. It's about worshiping and obeying God's commands, just like it was back in the Garden of Eden.

David: Yep.

Seth: And when Rahab s- a prostitute-

David: Yes

Seth: ... even-

David: A prostitute, Canaanite

Seth: ... [laughs] like, so, like, the worst of the worst.

David: Worst of the worst.

Seth: Like, worships the Lord-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and is included into the covenant people of Israel. We should know that the herem, the ban, the devotion to destruction, is only for those people who refuse to worship the Lord.

David: That's right.

Seth: That's, and that's, that's the ban.

David: Yes.

Seth: And over and over again, we'll see it. It's because intermarrying, intermingling with those people would cause you to le- like-

David: Right

Seth: ... lead you away.

David: So there's... Let's, let me s- let me, let me stop there-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and lean into that. So, um, there, there are, there are in Eden... Sorry, in-

Seth: Canaan

David: ... in Canaan, uh, there are an internal, there's an internal and an external threat. So the, um, the internal threat, uh-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is that the s- the pollution of the land caused by the Canaanites-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and their false worship and their child sacrifice and-

Seth: We should mention right there-

David: Yes

Seth: ... before we go on. So we actually have categories for all this back in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

David: Yes.

Seth: So in Leviticus, we're told that when we go, they go into the land, there's gonna be people there who are sexually immoral-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and practice child sacrifice.

David: Right.

Seth: And these people are gonna be devoted to destruction.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So you can go back and read Leviticus 18 and Deuteronomy, uh, 29.

David: Mm.

Seth: And, or not 29, Deuteronomy 20- t- 12. Deuteronomy 12.

David: Deuteronomy 12. Okay.

Seth: Deuteronomy 12, Leviticus 18, and in both those places, it describes that internal threat in the land.

David: Yes.

Seth: There's this morally corrupt people who are sexually immoral-

David: Right

Seth: ... and who practice child sacrifice.

David: Right.

Seth: And they are to be devoted to destruction.

David: That's right. Because the internal threat, what I'm talking about here-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is that if they continue to do those things in the land, especially when you read Leviticus, you learn that the land will be polluted-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and it will be unclean, and God will not be able to dwell there because it needs to be a clean place.

Seth: Oh. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

David: A ritually clean place.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so there's an internal threat inside the land that would compromise Israel's ability to commune with God. It would not be Eden. Even if there was peace on every side, it's not Eden unless God is there.

Seth: Right.

David: And so they had to clean up the land from ritual impurity in order for God to be present. There's an external threat as well. Uh, the Canaanites and their practices needed to be utterly destroyed because if, if they weren't, they would tempt the Israelites to abandon Yahweh and start practicing their evil, um, rituals as well.

Seth: Yes.

David: That they would start sacrificing their children, which happens later in Israel's history.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so, like, there's an internal threat compromising, uh, Israel's relationship with God, and there's an external threat, um, compromising their, um, loyalty to God, their obedience to his commands.

Seth: We'll summarize where, where we're at so far.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So herem is a ban, a banishment, a devotion to destruction or to the Lord-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because of the faithlessness of the Canaanites and their moral corruption.

David: Yeah, and so i- it's, it's... There's two things happening in herem.

Seth: Yeah.

David: One is punishment.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But two is purification.

Seth: And then, yes, that's the third category.

David: Yes.

Seth: Sorry. Moral corruption. You have, uh, whatever, uh [laughs] what did I just say? Moral corruption because of more corruption and because the impurity that it causes-

David: That's right

Seth: ... within the land.

David: Right.

Seth: And so the reason why the herem is happening is, like, if God's presence is gonna dwell again, everything that smacks of Genesis 3-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the f- and the disobedience of Adam and Eve, where they chose to, uh, define good and evil for themselves-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and eat of the knowledge of good and evil needs to be kept out of the land. Everything devoted to death needs to be kicked out.

David: Yes.

Seth: And I think this is an important... I think this is thematically important, although it's not necessarily picked up in the Book of Joshua. It's like Adam and Eve had a real choice to eat of the fruit.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, that's the way it's presented as.

David: Right.

Seth: It's a choice-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to do evil, to define good and evil for themselves, and it brought death.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Fast-forward a few hundred years. Leviticus 18 describes what that death looked like. It looked like child sacrifice. It looked like sleeping with your mother-in-law.

David: Yes.

Seth: It looks like all these incestual, disgusting practices.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And so I think what you're seeing then is the natural result of Genesis 3.

David: Yes.

Seth: These are the natural results of the fall. They are, like, the direct line consequences.

David: Right.

Seth: And what should be noted about almost all those sexual relationships mentioned in Leviticus 18 is that they literally bring death.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: If you have incestual sex, you will n- often have genetic abnormalities. The child will be unhealthy and often dies. Even homosexuality doesn't bring life from it.

David: Right.

Seth: So the reason why these are all lumped together is because these items as a whole communicate death.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: They communicate the absence of life, and those things must be pushed out if the God of life is to dwell in the land.

David: That's right. That's right. So what, what we're saying here is that God is punishing evil, but he's also creating, um, a pure place.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yes.

Seth: And that's doubled down on by the fact-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that the people within the land who used to do those practices can choose to no longer do them-

David: Right

Seth: ... worship the Lord, and become part of God's people.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yep, like Rahab did.

Seth: Like Rahab did.

David: Exactly right.

Seth: And then even doubling down on that even further-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is in the very next chapter after Rahab.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: A man named Achan, a soldier in Joshua's army, instead of devoting something to destruction, he keeps it for himself. And God says to Joshua, "If you keep what is devoted to destruction for yourself, you will be devoted to destruction. Israel will be devoted to destruction."

David: That's right. Israel is not, um, free from the herem just because of their ethnicity.

Seth: No.

David: So this is not an ethnic cleansing.

Seth: No, it's not a genocide.

David: Uh, it, because clearly, God is willing to go against the ethnicity of his own people-

Seth: Yes

David: ... if... So it is clearly a spiritual, religious, um, thing that's happening here.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, that God is-

Seth: It's about the worship of Yahweh-

David: Yes, it's about Yahweh's name

Seth: ... and the obedience to Yahweh.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Just like in Adam and... If, if this is a rep- this is going to the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve disobeyed the Lord's command to eat only from the tree of life and not from the tree of good and evil, and the tree of death brought all, or all these practices, to do anything devoted to them undoes the Garden of Eden-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and makes it impossible to live there.

David: That's right.

Seth: So they must be devoted to destruction if God is gonna live in that place.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's what's happening in the herem.

David: Yes. So-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... we'll dive deeper into that in some future episodes whenever-

Seth: Yes

David: ... we actually get to herem moments. Uh, and we'll probably talk about things like, uh, everything that breathes, men, women, and children, things like that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So, so let-

Seth: Just to-

David: Let's just put-

Seth: ... say that more explicitly.

David: Yep.

Seth: Joc- we're told that Joshua actually kills children.

David: Yes.

Seth: We're told that he kills women and destroys everything that breathes. So that is, like, so if we're talking about a God of life, is that compatible with the God of life?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, we'll talk about all that.

David: We'll talk about that more. Hopefully, these categories do give you some, some ways to answer those questions yourself now.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But we will talk about it more. Uh, to land the plane here as we close the episode-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... um, how is Jesus the new and better bringer of herem?

Seth: Hmm.

David: It's a very important question.

Seth: Yes.

David: So let me fr- can I, can I, can I be David just for a second?

Seth: You can be David just for-

David: Okay

Seth: ... just for a second.

David: So Seth knows what this means.

Seth: [laughs]

David: So, um, I mean, this happened in our community group recently. The, um, and, um, people were, were asking like, "So how do I read Joshua? Like, how do I read these commands for God to kill everything that breathes? Um, I just don't know if I can worship a God like that."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know? Uh, and books have been written trying to justify God in this situation, um, you know, like Paul Copan's, um-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... Is God a Moral Monster?

Seth: Yep.

David: And that's a great book.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Highly recommend. Um, but, um, wh- we... And you can answer those questions, and we will. We'll talk about them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But this is the challenge I give-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... I gave to my community group. Um, this-

Seth: Okay

David: ... is my being David for a second here.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: I was like, "Y- you claim to worship Jesus, who we're told, uh, is the, is the... And who on His very lips talks about a heaven and a hell, like a place of eternal bliss with God in the new heavens and the new earth, and an eternal lake of fire where everyone who doesn't believe in Him will be cast forever." And I was like, "How can you as a Christian be comfortable with that but be disturbed by the conquest of Canaan?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: I was like, I think it's... You, you have a problem of degrees here that like-

Seth: If this is offensive to you-

David: Yes

Seth: ... if the conquest narratives are to, are, are offensive to you, what you're really saying is that the idea of heaven and hell-

David: Right

Seth: ... is offensive to you. Because if Canaan is a picture of the new heavens and the new earth, and the ban is a description of what the Lord does to those that disobey Him-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and that's a smaller picture of what God does globally-

David: A much smaller picture-

Seth: And-

David: ... and throughout all time

Seth: ... internally-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... you probably didn't understand what you were buying into- [laughs]

David: Right

Seth: ... in Christianity in the first place.

David: Or to put it, or to put it another way, that, um, I... Like, when you think about God and you think about Jesus, Jesus is this, this self-sacrificing God who loves us and is bringing us to Himself. This is all true, everything I've just said.

Seth: Yes, yes.

David: 100%. Um, I just don't see how that God could-

Seth: Mm

David: ... do that thing.

Seth: [laughs] Yeah.

David: You have an-

Seth: How does the Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... die for me-

David: Yes

Seth: ... demand the death of children?

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like, you don't understand why He died [laughs] because there was a herem against you. Like, the-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to not, to misunderstand herem or to devalue it is to completely miss the point of the cross, that Jesus was heremed for us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Jesus was devoted to destruction so you didn't have to be, that the closest-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a Christian ever has to get to the herem of God is reading about it in Joshua.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, that's a big deal. Like, a- and, and, and there's, there's ways to talk about this that are just really good news too.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That, like, Jesus is going to bring justice to the Earth, that all the things that are evil and wicked and that, that pollute the Earth and hurt, uh, people psychologically, physically, sociologically-

Seth: So, and like we talked about, like, the pollution of the land. Like, our business practices poison the land.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, our nuclear facilities explode-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and, like, make huge tracts of land uninhabitable.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, you can't go... Uh, what's the nuclear facility that blew up in Russia?

David: Oh.

Seth: Uh-

David: Uh, Chernobyl.

Seth: Chernobyl.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, you still can't go there. Like-

David: Right

Seth: ... the land has been poisoned.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We've heremed ourselves.

Seth: We've heremed ourse-

David: [laughs]

Seth: In the same way that-

David: We banished ourselves from parts of the land-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... that become uninhabitable because of our own sin.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so Jesus is going to come, and He's going to judge those things. He's going to drive them out of this world in order to purify it. Like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and I don't mean that in, like, some-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... kind of weird cleanse it kind of thing. Like, uh-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I just think of, like, uh, Ronan from, uh-

Seth: Ronan?

David: ... Guardians of the Galaxy.

Seth: Oh. [laughs]

David: Where he's like, "Cleanse it."

Seth: Yes.

David: It just means kill everybody.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: That's not what's happening here.

Seth: Yeah.

David: God is cleaning it, like, and making it inhabitable for goodness-

Seth: Right

David: ... and beauty and rest and shalom. Like-

Seth: And again, y- I think you said it right. The Lord, there is a ban coming.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There's a devotion to destruction coming.

David: Yes.

Seth: But the first story we read about in the Book of Joshua before the herem-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is the story of Rahab.

David: Right.

Seth: Of a woman, a prostitute, a Canaanite devoted to destruction, finding a home with the people of God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And the way that she secures for herself that herem, th- that freedom, rescue from herem, is essentially by selling out her own people.

David: Yes.

Seth: Selling out the Canaanites, by de- allowing the Canaanites to be devoted to destruction, but p- but firstly, by professing faith-

David: Faith

Seth: ... in Yahweh.

David: Yep. She says, "I"-

Seth: In God

David: ... "I know that Yahweh is the one true God."

Seth: Yes. And what ends up ha- so, like, yes, we have, we have two Je- Jesuses. We have the Jesus who has promised to come and ban.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But we also have the Jesus who's promised to come and die.

David: Yes.

Seth: And the pro- Jesus who's promised to come and die comes first.

David: Yes.

Seth: In the biblical narrative, in the story of creation, in the story of redemption, Jesus that saves comes before the Jesus that destroys.

David: That's right.

Seth: And so we can trust in that Yahweh.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that Yahweh is unlike... That Joshua, Jesus-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is better than Joshua-

David: Yes

Seth: ... because He is willing to be devoted to destruction Himself-

David: That's right

Seth: ... and save everyone-

David: Everyone

Seth: ... if they would trust in Him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And over and over again throughout Joshua, we see the kings are offered an opportunity to repent.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, yet their hearts are hardened.

David: Yeah. What I love about the cross when we talk about herem and how difficult it is to talk about is that Jesus's justice does not demand of the world something that He is not willing to demand of Himself.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That He says, "You will be devoted to destruction for your sin."But Jesus first said, "Because of your sin, I will devote myself to destruction."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, like, God is willing to die. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: You can't be mad at a... Like, how can you love a God that, that, that is willing to devote people to destruction? Because that same God devoted himself to destruction for you-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... so that you wouldn't have to be.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, that's how you can love a God like that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, because he's so good and so loving.

Seth: I feel, in this moment, when we talk about this, we've talked about holy war a couple different times.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You can go back and listen to our podcast on those. I always feel like I'm inadequately answering the objections-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that people have towards these passages in inarticulately explaining why Jesus is still good news.

David: Mm.

Seth: Uh, but I say that to say, if you're listening and still f- you feel angry with us-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... for the things that we intimated, insinuated, said halfway, like, in a, in appropriate way, I, what I want to challenge you with is the fact that the Book of Joshua should be good news.

David: Yes.

Seth: And to whatever s- extent the j- the Book of Joshua is good news, there's better news in Jesus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And to whatever extent the Book of Joshua feels offensive, it's more offensive in Jesus. So, like, if w- if you're struggling with the way that we're talking about it, good-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... because that means you're actually wrestling with the claim through Jesus for the first time.

David: That's good.

Seth: Or, like, in a new light.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so, like, I would just encourage you, stick with us. And even though stick with us, stick with your Bible.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Stick with reading, stick with researching, stick with listening, because I think you'll learn to love Jesus more, um, by studying Joshua.

David: That's really good. I think that's one of the most helpful things we've said. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Or you said.

Seth: [laughs]

David: That was very good. Uh, what I thought you were gonna say, which, I guess I'll put my closing remark on-

Seth: Go for it

David: ... is, um, when you read the Book of Joshua, and it's offensive to you, um, let that be a moment for you to be shown not why the Bible is offensive and weird, but why you and your worldview are actually offensive to God and weird to His way of doing things, that maybe you actually love the fact that sin is in this world too much. [laughs] Maybe you don't know how offensive, uh, like, child sacrifice is in the eyes of God, or sin is in the eyes of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, like, let the places that Joshua makes you feel uncomfortable highlight things within your worldview that are just incorrect, and that God wants to come and kindfully rebuke. Um, that's what difficult stories do. They help us inhabit God's world-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... instead of our own-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because they challenge us in really unique ways.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, um, that's hopefully what the Book of Joshua will do for us as we walk through it.

Seth: Joshua's a good book to do that. It's like, there's a different worldview, a different culture in the Kingdom of Heaven.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And the Book of Joshua really rubs against our, the kingdom of Western, industrialized-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... modern, liberal countries.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, and it's a really good exercise in cultivating a biblical worldview and a biblical imagination.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so.

David: It's really good. And, uh, I guess I'll, I'll end with this, just 'cause it popped in my head.

Seth: Okay.

David: And I have to say it. So, um, now, what do you do when you close this podcast and it's all over? Uh, one thing you can do is know that the conquest is still going on today, but it's not, we don't do it through crusades and weapons or na- or, or nationalism or anything like that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We do it not with weapons made by man, but by dismantling any thought that sets itself up against Jesus. This is what Paul says-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that we preach the good news-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that Yahweh has come and defeated the curse-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and was haremed for us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that people can escape the coming harem-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and be grafted into the people of God.

Seth: Yeah. Because of Jesus, we actually should feel uncomfortable-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... with the we- with, um, harem by the sword. And so I think it's, so it's really telling that when Jesus sent out his disciples teaching and proclaiming, and then even when Jesus returned as a wa- a warrior, where does the sword come from?

David: His mouth.

Seth: His mouth. It's his word that brings, uh, punishment-

David: Yep

Seth: ... not violence.

David: That's right.

Seth: Um, his word is violent, and w- we'll, we'll-

David: Right. Yeah

Seth: ... unpack that. But, like, it's the word-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... not the sword.

David: Yep. That's good. So obviously, there's a lot more we wanna talk about.

Seth: Yes.

David: But, um, this will be a hairy book to get through, but I think there's really good news for us on the other side. I'm really excited about that. So, um, Seth, thanks for wrestling with me today. That was really good.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, thank you guys for wrestling with us. Um, stick with it. Um, Joshua's a good book, and we're very excited to walk through it, uh, walk, walk, walk through it with you. Um, so thank you for trusting us and being on this journey with us. And, uh, yeah, we appreciate you all for listening, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

Listen to the Joshua Introduction podcast

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Listen to the Joshua 1-2: Be Strong and Courageous! And Rahab's Scarlet Thread podcast

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How the Book of Joshua Points Us to Jesus: Leadership, Land, and the Promise of Rest

Show Notes

Joshua's Place in the Story of Scripture

Who Is Joshua?

Why Leadership Matters — and Why Jesus Is the Point

The Land as a New Eden

Rest — the Goal Behind the Land

Herem, the Cross, and the Good News in Joshua

Related Resources

Introduction to Joshua

View our devotional on Joshua 1

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Joshua Introduction podcast

Listen to the Joshua 1-2: Be Strong and Courageous! And Rahab's Scarlet Thread podcast

Listen to the Joshua 3-5: Crossing the Jordan podcast

Listen to the Joshua 6-8: The "Battle" of Jericho podcast

Listen to the Joshua 9-10:28: The Sun Stands Still podcast

Listen to the Joshua 10:29-12: The Land Has Rest podcast

Listen to the Joshua 13-19: Land Allotments are Good News Too podcast

Listen to the Joshua 20-21: The Cities of Refuge podcast

Listen to the Joshua 22-24: Joshua Dies podcast