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Joshua 22-24: Joshua Dies

About This Episode

Before Joshua dies there is a misunderstanding between the tribes on either side of the Jordan. It reveals that spiritual pride and insecurity are features of life in Israel under Joshua's leadership. This leads Joshua to say that it will be impossible for Israel to fully obey God. Israel should expect judgment. Seth and David talk about the end of Joshua's life and how spiritual pride, insecurity, and promises of judgment are all overturned by Jesus' superior leadership.

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The Final Altar, the Final Warning, and the Final Joshua: How Joshua 22–24 Points to Jesus

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart close out the book of Joshua by walking through its final three chapters — a stretch of Scripture that moves from a near-civil war over a mysterious altar, to Joshua's farewell speeches, to his death and the burial of Joseph's bones. What emerges is a rich and surprising portrait of spiritual pride, misunderstanding, and the kind of hope that only Jesus can deliver.

A Familiar Misunderstanding and an Altar of Imposing Size

The story opens with a callback to an incident from the book of Numbers. The two and a half tribes — Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh — had originally asked Moses for permission to settle east of the Jordan River because their livestock needed the grazing land. That request sparked a misunderstanding, with Moses initially fearing they were repeating the rebellion of the previous generation who refused to enter the Promised Land. But the Transjordan tribes proved themselves more faithful than expected, crossing the Jordan to fight on behalf of all Israel before returning to their own land.

Now, at the end of Joshua, history repeats itself with different plot points. Joshua commends these tribes for their obedience and sends them home to settle east of the Jordan. But before they cross the river, they do something no one expected — they build a massive altar, a replica of the altar in the tabernacle, and they build it on Israel's side of the Jordan. This was strictly forbidden. The law permitted only one altar, and sacrificing anywhere other than at the tabernacle was a serious offense. When the rest of Israel hears about it, the reaction is swift. The whole congregation gathers at Shiloh to make war against their own brothers. They send Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, along with ten tribal leaders as emissaries. The urgency is understandable. Israel had recent, painful memories of what happens when idolatry creeps into the camp. At Ai, Achan's hidden disobedience cost lives. And at Peor, where Balaam encouraged Israel to intermarry with idol-worshiping women, 24,000 people died in a plague. Phinehas himself had ended that plague by driving a javelin through the offending party. His zeal for the purity of the land saved Israel then, and now the whole congregation has internalized that lesson — when idolatry surfaces, you deal with it immediately.

The Spiritual Lineage of Phinehas and the Irony of the Cross

The zeal of Phinehas did not end in the book of Numbers. N.T. Wright has traced a "spiritual lineage" of Phinehas all the way into the time of Jesus. The zealots of first-century Israel saw themselves as heirs of Phinehas, believing it was their duty to purge the land of Roman oppression and Jewish compromise through violence. Figures like Barabbas, and possibly even the Apostle Peter, may have had connections to this movement. The Pharisees carried a version of this same impulse — a desire to keep Israel ritually clean so that God's favor would return.

The irony is devastating. In Joshua 22, the Transjordan tribes were actually doing something faithful, and the violent response was based on a misunderstanding. Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh were spared — the violence was held back. But when Jesus arrived, the spiritual descendants of Phinehas made the same mistake and followed through. They misunderstood who the truly faithful one of Israel was, and they pinned him to a tree to end what they perceived as a curse on the land. What they meant as condemnation, God used as salvation. The spear that pierced Jesus' side echoed Phinehas' javelin, but this time, the act of violence did not just end a plague — it ended the power of Death, Sin, and the Grave for everyone willing to trust him.

Spiritual Elitism and the Jordan as a Boundary Line

One of the most revealing dynamics in Joshua 22 is the language the western tribes use about the eastern tribes. They refer to the land west of the Jordan as "the Lord's land" and to the Transjordan territory as something lesser, even "unclean" (Joshua 22:19). They speak as though the Jordan River has made the Transjordan tribes second-class citizens of the covenant. The text exposes an early, toxic strain of spiritual elitism already forming in Israel — the assumption that geographical proximity to the tabernacle made some Israelites more legitimate than others.

This is precisely what drove the Transjordan tribes to build the altar in the first place. They were afraid. Not afraid of God, but afraid of their own brothers. They feared that future generations on the western side would one day say to their children, "What have you to do with the Lord, the God of Israel? For the Lord has made the Jordan a boundary between us and you. You have no portion in the Lord" (Joshua 22:24–25). The altar was never meant for sacrifices. It was a witness — a visible declaration that the tribes east of the Jordan were still part of God's people, still recipients of his covenant, still welcome at his altar.

This matters because the Jordan boundary carried enormous theological weight. It was the threshold of the Promised Land, the place of Israel's failure in Numbers 13 and their miraculous crossing in Joshua 3. To live outside it was, in the eyes of many, to live outside God's favor. But the Transjordan tribes were doing something Israel as a whole was always supposed to do — extending God's presence and promises beyond the borders of Canaan. They were, in a real sense, the frontline missionaries, pushing the territory of God's Kingdom into the wider world. And yet their own people treated them as spiritually inferior.

This pattern — spiritual insiders looking down on those they consider outsiders — shows up again and again in Scripture. It surfaces in Israel's treatment of Samaritans, in the Pharisees' contempt for tax collectors and prostitutes, and in the Jew-Gentile division that plagued the early church. Jesus confronted it head-on. After his baptism in the Jordan, where the Holy Spirit descended on him and John declared him "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world," Jesus crossed east of the Jordan into the wilderness. He went first to the place Israel's elite had written off. His entire ministry followed this pattern — gathering disenfranchised, marginalized, and looked-down-upon Israelites and declaring that they, too, belonged to God.

The Altar as Witness and Jesus as the True Altar

The resolution of the conflict is surprisingly peaceful. When the Transjordan tribes explain their motives, the rest of Israel accepts it. The altar was not built for burnt offerings or sacrifices. It was built as a "witness between us and you, and between our generations after us" — a testimony that the tribes east of the Jordan still belonged to God and still looked to the same sacrifice for access to his presence (Joshua 22:27). They named the altar "Witness," declaring, "It is a witness between us that the Lord is God" (Joshua 22:34).

There is a beautiful detail embedded in the design of the altar itself. It was a replica of the altar in the tabernacle. The Transjordan tribes were saying, "We know we can't offer sacrifices here, but we want you to see that our entry into God's presence is grounded in the same reality yours is — the altar and its sacrifice." Both sides of the Jordan were looking to the same thing from different vantage points. And yet, as the conversation reveals, even the altar in the tabernacle was itself a copy of a heavenly reality. Israel was judging another tribe's copy of the altar while their own was also a copy. The only true altar was the heavenly one — the one Jesus himself would ultimately fulfill.

Jesus is the final altar, the once-for-all sacrifice that stands at every boundary line human beings have drawn or experienced. Just as the altar at the Jordan declared to the Transjordan tribes, "You belong," the cross declares to everyone who trusts Jesus, "You are not inferior. You are loved. You are included. You can enter God's presence with full confidence." And it speaks a word to the spiritually proud as well. The zeal with which you condemn others, Jesus warns, is the zeal with which you will be condemned. The cross levels everyone — the spiritually elite and the spiritually ashamed alike.

Joshua's Farewell, the Covenant at Shechem, and "You Are Not Able"

In chapters 23 and 24, Joshua delivers his farewell speeches, first to Israel's leaders and then to the whole nation at Shechem — the valley between Mount Ebal, the mountain of cursing, and Mount Gerizim, the mountain of blessing. His speech mirrors Moses' final address in Deuteronomy. He reminds Israel of God's faithfulness: "One man of you puts to flight a thousand, since it is the Lord your God who fights for you" (Joshua 23:10). He urges them to be strong and courageous, to keep the law, and above all, to love the Lord their God. Then he warns them. If they turn to the gods of the nations around them, the good land will become "a snare and a trap, a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes" (Joshua 23:13).

At Shechem, Joshua recounts Israel's entire history, beginning all the way back with Abraham's father Terah, who worshiped idols in Mesopotamia. This was not just a motivational recap — it was the formal structure of an ancient covenant, where the king recounts his past deeds before imposing obligations on his people. After the recounting, Joshua issues his famous challenge: "Choose this day whom you will serve... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15). The people respond enthusiastically: "Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods!" But Joshua's reply is startling. He does not celebrate their commitment. Instead, he says, "You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God. He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins" (Joshua 24:19). The people double down, insisting they will serve God. And Joshua says, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord to serve him." They set up a stone of witness at Shechem, and Joshua sends every family to their inheritance. The book ends on a somber cliffhanger.

The Cross as Witness and the Inheritance Jesus Secures

Joshua's declaration — "You are not able to serve the Lord" — raises a question that echoes across the rest of Scripture and into the present. Can anyone with a divided heart fully serve a holy, jealous God? The answer, apart from Jesus, is no. Idolatry is not limited to bowing before golden statues. It shows up wherever ultimate trust, hope, and allegiance are placed in anything other than God — a career, a relationship, a bank account, political power, or even personal righteousness. God is passionately jealous for the whole heart, not because he is needy, but because he knows he is the only source of lasting joy, provision, and security.

The tension between the conditional and unconditional strands of God's covenant runs through the entire book of Joshua and forward into the rest of Israel's history. God unconditionally promised the land. But Israel's experience of that promise was conditioned on their obedience and trust. History proved that Israel could not uphold its end. Moses prophesied their failure, and the books of Judges and Kings record it in painful detail. The resolution to this tension is Jesus. He fulfills every condition of the covenant — loving God with his whole heart, obeying every command, trusting the Father even to the point of death. His obedience is the ground of our unconditional inclusion in God's family. He chose the cross so that we might receive the blessings of Mount Gerizim while he absorbed the curses of Mount Ebal.

The book of Joshua ends with Joshua sending the people to their inheritance under the shadow of their own words: "Your words will condemn you." But Jesus, whose name is the same as Joshua's, sends his people into their inheritance with a radically different sentence. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). And he adds, "I am with you always, to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20). The cross stands as the true witness stone, the true witness altar — declaring to the spiritually ashamed that they belong, and to the spiritually proud that they, too, need mercy. That is the Gospel at the end of the book of Joshua, and it is very good news.

Transcript

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.

David: [upbeat music] Well, hey there. Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. I'm David. Seth, how are you today?

Seth: I feel interrupty.

David: You feel- You're feeling interrupty today?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Oh, no.

Seth: I'm just ready to jump in-

David: Oh, no

Seth: ... at all, all sorts of random moments. All in.

David: You've been... Have you been inspired by the, the, uh, false conflict of the, uh, between Israel-

Seth: Oh, so inspired

David: ... Reuben, Gad, and the half tribe of Manasseh?

Seth: But more so by the excellent puns that I heard from you before walking into this podcast recording.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: And I just want you to make sure that you share those with our podcast audience.

David: Okay. All right.

Seth: So let me, let me set you up-

David: Okay

Seth: ... real, real quick. Uh, who... What kind of man was Boaz before he met Ruth?

David: Oh, well, Boaz was ruthless. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Nailed it.

Seth: What was the other one you said? [laughs]

David: Uh, who's the biggest comedian in the Bible, or the best comedian in the Bible?

Seth: Oh, yes.

David: It was Samson, 'cause he brought the house down. [laughs]

Seth: That's so bad.

David: It's so bad.

Seth: It's like, it's worse the second time I heard it. I thought it'd be funnier.

David: [laughs] My favorite one, though, my favorite one is, uh, who's the worst servant of God in the Old Testament? It's Moses. He broke all the Ten Commandments at once. [laughs]

Seth: 'Cause he threw them on the ground.

David: When he threw them on the ground. [laughs] Anyway, there you go.

Seth: There you go, guys.

David: Yeah. Very, uh, there was.

Seth: It wa- That was worth it.

David: That was worth it. That was worth it.

Seth: Um, today we're in Joshua 22 to 24. 20, yeah, 20-

David: 20, 24 to tw- Wait. 23 to 20-

Seth: 24

David: ... No, 22 to 24. You were right.

Seth: We are so ready for this podcast.

David: We are so ready.

Seth: Uh, this is the-

David: 22 to 24

Seth: ... uh, Transjordan tribes going-

David: Yes

Seth: ... uh, the soldiers from the Transjordan tribes going back home, and Joshua's final speech to Israel, just like Moses' final speech-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... uh, to Israel as well.

David: And we're finishing Joshua tonight.

Seth: And we're finishing Joshua.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's the whole thing.

David: Yes. So, uh, we just finished the land allotments, uh, so everybody has been given their marching orders to say where they will live and what land remains to be conquered. And so Joshua sends them out and tells them to go conquer the remaining land and then dwell in it. And, um, then we were given the, uh, rules for the cities of refuge, the establishment of the cities of refuge, and the allotments for the Levites, which we talked about last week. And then now, uh, there's one tribe left remaining to go take their land, and that, those are those on the east of the Jordan-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... outside the quote-unquote Promised Land proper.

Seth: So if you remember all the way back to, this was in Numbers.

David: Numbers.

Seth: When Moses came up to the Jordan River and the King Og-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of Bashan and S- or Si-

David: Sihon

Seth: ... Sihon.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Sihon and Og of Bashan-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... were in that land. They win the battle-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... against Og and Sihon, and three, two and a half tribes say, because they have so many cows-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and sheep and goats, they wanted to live on that side of the land as their inheritance from God, not on the other side of the Jordan.

David: Right.

Seth: Back then, they thought it was a sign of mistrust.

David: It w- There was a misunderstanding.

Seth: There was a misunderstanding back then.

David: Yeah, what, yeah, what Moses thought was happening was a repeat of the first time they tried to go into the Promised Land, and they were so afraid that they didn't enter. But that was not the case, and the people said, "No, no, no, no, no, we're actually more faithful than you think we are."

Seth: Yep.

David: "We are going to go in and fight on your behalf for land that we won't even take over."

Seth: Yes.

David: "And then s- once the victory is won, then we'll come back across the Jordan again and dwell here on the east side of the Jordan."

Seth: Yes.

David: So it was a misunderstanding, right, between Israel's leader and the two and a half tribes of the Transjordan, the east side of the, of the Jordan, uh, that resulted in the east side Jordan tribes, uh, being seen as more faithful than they thought.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And what's just really funny-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is that the sa-

David: [laughs]

Seth: History will repeat itself. [laughs]

David: It's the exact same scenario with different s- plot points.

Seth: With different plot points.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So again, like, just like in that first story, Israel was largely obedient at that time.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then y- they thought, uh, Reuben, Gad, and the half tribe of Manasseh were being disobedient. And now here, we're told the same thing again. "You have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I have commanded you."

David: And that's Joshua talking to the Transjordan tribes.

Seth: Yeah. He's like-

David: Yes

Seth: ... obedience seems to be the reigning factor of the day.

David: Yes. "So now go and take your inheritance as Moses promised. Travel back across the Jordan and take the land that Moses promised you. Now that you have come across the Jordan and fought the battle for Israel, now go back and rest."

Seth: Yes.

David: Yep.

Seth: So they go back-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and they go back to where their families were-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and their cattle were, who, and they-

David: Yep

Seth: ... settle the land.

David: But before, but before they cross the Jordan-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... before they cross the Jordan, they do something that no one was expecting. They build an altar of, of imposing size. They build a huge altar that is a replica of the altar in the tabernacle. Now this, which was strictly forbidden in the law. Like, you were not supposed to-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... make a replica. It was only one altar. You weren't supposed to make... And, and what are altars for? They're for sacrificing.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And there were multiple laws against making sacrifices somewhere other than at the altar.

Seth: Yes. So-

David: And so it's bad.

Seth: It's, yeah, it's, it looks real bad.

David: It looks real bad.

Seth: Um, and they do it on Israel's side-

David: Yes

Seth: ... of the, of the, of the river border-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... not their side.

David: Which means it's... Right, which means it looks like they are, uh, like, poisoning Israel's side of the land. So if God's wrath falls-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... like it did, uh, against, like, uh, at the Battle of Ai, which they-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... it gets referenced in this story.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's gonna, it's gonna crush Israel, all of Israel, not necessarily the Transjordan side, because the, the sin, the altar, is on their side. [laughs]

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so they build this-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and then they go, and then they go back-Go back into their land, and then word spreads-

David: Yep

Seth: ... that there's this false or this seemingly false altar-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... on their side built by the tribes, uh, who have had a misunderstanding in the past.

David: In the past. [laughs]

Seth: So all the people of Israel-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... this is the phrase they use. All the people of Israel, the whole congregation of Isr- go to Shiloh to make war-

David: Right

Seth: ... against Gad, Reuben, and Manasseh.

David: Well, they, they send, uh, emissaries. So they send Joshua, Eleazar, and 10 tribal leaders.

Seth: Well, verse 12-

David: Or Phinehas, sorry

Seth: ... "When the people of Israel heard of it, the whole assembly of the people of Israel gathered at Shiloh to make war against them." And then they-

David: Oh, then they sent

Seth: ... then they send.

David: Yes.

Seth: So it's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it's a big moment.

David: It's a big moment.

Seth: And there's a couple reasons why it should be a big moment.

David: Mm.

Seth: So one, uh, as you said it before, this has already happened.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When you see seeming unfaithfulness in the camp, not just one person dies.

David: It shouldn't.

Seth: A whole bunch of people are implicated in that one sin. We saw that at Ai-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... with Achan, and Achan gets brought up here.

David: Yep.

Seth: But also more, um, like-

David: Um, yeah

Seth: ... saliently or like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... more like importantly for this one, back in Numbers 25, Balaam, when he was brought into the camp, uh, also encouraged, uh, idolatry in intermarrying with, uh, women who worshiped other gods.

David: Right, which is an exact sin that Joshua brings up in chapter 23.

Seth: That's exactly right. [laughs]

David: Yeah. So it's like that is a very heightened thing right now.

Seth: And it's verse twen- 17 of 22. It says, "Have we not had enough of the sin of Peor?"

David: Yep.

Seth: Which is what happened with Balaam.

David: Right.

Seth: Uh, "From which, uh, even yet we have not yet cleansed ourselves."

David: Right.

Seth: "And for which there came a plague upon the entire congregation of the Lord."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So the idea is because you're sinning in this one way, this isn't just gonna affect you, Manasseh-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or Gad or Reuben. All of us are implicated with it.

David: Right.

Seth: That's why the whole congregation's there. That's why all the leaders of, uh, uh, Joshua-

David: Yep

Seth: ... Phinehas, and Eleazar are all there. And Phinehas is important because he was the one who ended-

David: The plague

Seth: ... the plague back in Numbers 25.

David: That's right.

Seth: The consequence, we should name that, the consequence of idolatry back in Numbers 25 was this plague broke out.

David: People were dying.

Seth: 24,000 people died.

David: And then Phinehas, he drives a javelin into the belly of the sinful party.

Seth: Yes.

David: And that, the, and his death ends the plague. So what they're thinking is as soon as sun comes up tomorrow and God sees this altar here that we did nothing about, a plague is going to break out. So we need to go and make war-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... against, uh, Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh and-

Seth: Otherwise, the-

David: ... kill them. Otherwise, it's gonna be a repeat.

Seth: And what's really interesting, too, was it back in Numbers 25, we're told that it's the zeal of Phinehas-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that saves them. So like this really intense r- I, when I read it, the whole congregation? What? Why is everyone here so fast?

David: Mm. Yeah.

Seth: So no, we've already been told once before that it's the zeal of Phinehas.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, the zeal for the purity of the land is what saved Israel-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... previously.

David: Yep.

Seth: So now the whole of Israel has essentially learned the lessons.

David: Mm.

Seth: They've learned the lesson of Balaam. They've learned the lesson of Achan. It's like, no, when there's, when idolatry seems to be spreading, the whole congregation must come out, face it, and stop it as soon as possible.

David: Yes. Okay, I have to put a pin right here.

Seth: Okay.

David: We were not planning on stopping here, but-

Seth: But

David: ... there's a, N.T. Wright-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... uh, has done some really interesting work on the lineage, uh, or not, like, the spiritual lineage of, of Phinehas.

Seth: Okay.

David: Or he calls him Finhas the way he pronounces it.

Seth: Finhas. I like Finhas.

David: Finhas. And, um, and, and he talks about how a lot of the zealots, so you brought up the, the, the zeal.

Seth: Mm.

David: So a lot of the zealots in Jesus' day saw themselves as new Finhas', new Phinehas'.

Seth: Interesting.

David: And it was their job to kill the Romans, to put the javelin into the hearts of the Romans, and even, like, the Sadducees who were, you know, hedonistic. Uh, that's not, that word's, not everyone knows that word.

Seth: No.

David: They were, they were Syncretists. They were like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... they were Jews that were basically Greek.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, they were Roman Jews who had sold themselves out. They were sellouts. There we go. Found it.

Seth: Sellouts.

David: Uh, anyway, and so they were like-

Seth: Hedonistic.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Sellouts. [laughs]

David: Or Hellenistic.

Seth: Hellenistic.

David: Hellenistic.

Seth: Hellenistic.

David: Which means Greek. Uh, anyway, and so these zealots, uh, some people think Peter was a, was w- a part of this group, uh, the Apostle Peter. Uh, and they would just go around killing people in raiding bands. Uh, Barabbas might have been one of these people, the, the person that was freed at Jesus'-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... um, trial.

Seth: Yep.

David: Anyway, uh, and so it's just interesting that you have this spiritual lineage of Phinehas, uh, still rampant in the time of Jesus. And they're trying to fix, um, the problem of Roman oppression-

Seth: Interesting

David: ... and God's seeming lack of presence with his people by killing. And they, they are-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the camp of Israel riding out to the Jordan to fix the problem with violence, and what's interesting is there's a misunderstanding about who the true faithful one of Israel is in Jesus. He, he is actually doing something good, and they want to kill him as the new Phinehas.

Seth: It, whoa.

David: And they, and so they pin him on the tree to end the curse of God against people 'cause they are thinking he's blasphemous.

Seth: So, so in this, so, so you're saying, like, in, within the, within the Pharisees there was a-

David: Within the Pharisee tradition, there was this desire to clean everything up. There was, which is why they wanna stone Jesus, which they-

Seth: Right

David: ... why they wanted to stone the adulterous w- woman. Like, because-

Seth: Right

David: ... they're trying to keep Israel clean so that God's favor would come back to Israel.

Seth: Hmm.

David: And so by putting Jesus on the tree, they, they actually did what Israel's hand was held back from doing here in this story. They actually went forward with the violence. So in the-

Seth: Interesting

David: ... like, Manasseh and Reuben and Gad were spared, but Jesus was not. And the, the misunderstanding of who he was and the violence acted out against him, uh, ironically ended up, like, being the very thing that healed the land instead of bringing its curse.

Seth: Like, God uses the spiritual lineage of Phinehas.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it, God uses-

David: In an ironic way

Seth: ... the misunderstanding-

David: The misunderstanding

Seth: ... and the spiritual lineage of Phinehas to, like, have history repeat itself again.

David: Yes.

Seth: But in st- in, and just like in this story, we'll see in a moment where the misunderstanding is resolved by no violence.

David: Yes. That's right.

Seth: In, um, Jesus-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the misunderstanding will be resolvedThrough him being speared through.

David: Yes.

Seth: Wow.

David: Anyway, I hadn't made that connection till just now.

Seth: That's crazy.

David: But- Yeah. Anyway, thanks, uh, NT Wright, Tom Wright.

Seth: To- Tom Wright.

David: Good job.

Seth: Uh, man, that's-

David: I'm pretty sure that was from the autobiography, like, or no, the, the biography of Paul that he did.

Seth: Yes.

David: I'm pretty sure it was from that book-

Seth: Yes

David: ... if you ever read that one.

Seth: I haven't read that one.

David: I'm pretty sure that was it.

Seth: Um, anyway.

David: Anyway.

Seth: That's really cool, actually.

David: Anyway, I had to, like, get that in.

Seth: That's really cool.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The only other thing I wanna add here that I'd noticed that I thought was kinda interesting before we get to the resolution here, was that there seems to be this weird, like, disconnect-

David: Mm

Seth: ... between the people on the east side of the Jordan from the people on the west side of the Jordan.

David: Yes.

Seth: So on ver- in verse 11, it says, um, "Reuben and the people of Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh have built the altar at the frontier of the land of Canaan-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in the region about the Jordan on the side that belongs to the people of Israel."

David: People of Israel.

Seth: But wait, wait, both sides belong-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... to the people of Israel, right? And then again in verse 19, "But now if the land in your possession is unclean, pass over to the Lord's land, where the Lord's tabernacle is."

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: So there apparently seemed to be, like s- even on the 10, the 10 and a half, nine and a half tribes-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... on the right, on the right side of the land-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... there was, like, a misunderstanding about their geographical proximity to the temple was somehow made them better-

David: Yes

Seth: ... than the people on the other side of the land?

David: Exactly right.

Seth: Which I was like, "What's happening there?"

David: Yes.

Seth: Is that significant?

David: It is significant.

Seth: Is it... Okay.

David: It's, it's what drives the whole story.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so wha- what was the impetus, why, why did Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh decide to build the altar? It's because they thought that at some point in the future they would try to come and worship God in the tabernacle, and the spiritual elite people who are calling this land true Israel, and this is the Lord's land, and we are the Lord's people, you don't, you are second class, and now you are kept out-

Seth: Mm

David: ... from the tabernacle.

Seth: So that's why verse-

David: That's why they built it.

Seth: So verse 20, chapter 22, verse 25, I highlighted this verse trying to, like, puzzling out what you're, like, what you're saying really clearly, "For the Lord has made the Jordan a boundary between us and you."

David: That's right.

Seth: Uh, you people of Reuben and people of Gad. Uh, y- oh, so, um, verse 24 would be more helpful-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... [laughs] to go to. Uh, "They built it in fear."

David: Yes.

Seth: "Then time to come your children might say to our children, 'What have you to do with the Lord, the God of Israel? For the Lord has made the Jordan a boundary between us. For you people of Reuben, and you people of Gad, you have no portion, O Lord.'"

David: Yes.

Seth: "So your children might ta- make our children cease to worship the Lord."

David: Yes.

Seth: They're afraid of-

David: They're afraid

Seth: ... future idolatry.

David: Yes.

Seth: And-

David: And that's probably d-

Seth: ... that spiritual elitism-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that they're already sensing.

David: That's it. They're already feeling the fact that the nine and a half tribes on the west side of the Jordan are spiritually better than them, and that there was something poisonous in the water of Israel that had this division in it. And, and this Jordan boundary is really significant. I just wanna highlight it here 'cause it's gonna come up in something Jesus does in his own ministry. The Jordan boundary is extremely significant because that is the place that back in Numbers 13, they, you know, they're, they're tre- they're gonna go into the land, and they're gonna fail. They come up to it again with, you know, Peor and everything like that, that we've talked about. And then it's, it's parted, and it's a whole thing, and the ark stands in it, and they build an altar, like a, an Ebenezer-

Seth: Yep

David: ... up on the shore of it. Like, the Ebene- or the Ebenezer [laughs] the Jordan is the boundary line of the promised land, and so to be outside of it is, in a sense, to be outside the promised land of God, unless that was always God's plan to have his promised land extend past the boundaries he's setting for Israel in the land allotments we just read.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, so we just had land allotments, like, here are the hard lines for everything, but then here in the story, we're seeing that already Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh are taking God's land and presence out into the rest of the world beyond the boundaries of the promised land, and so they're actually being more faithful than we think they are. They're not second class. They're frontiersmen-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... for the gospel. They're, they're like the frontline missionaries.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And they're s- and that's what Israel was supposed to be, was the spreading out of the land of Israel, and Israel's already, um, falling back into, um, nationalism and patriotism and elitism and Zionism, which is something that will plague them in the future, where they think that because they live in the land with the temple, they're better than everybody else.

Seth: Man.

David: And so it's like that's already plaguing them before-

Seth: Before it even happens

David: ... it even starts. [laughs]

Seth: It makes me rethink even, like, some of the ways, like the Jew-Gentile division in the early church. It's like, oh, that's, like, that heritage of Phinehas-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... which was good in one way-

David: It is good

Seth: ... like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like is corrupted-

David: Yes

Seth: ... through the course of Israel's history, where they, like, discount people of lesser... I, I guess, I don't even know. It's like, like, who they consider lesser spiritually.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: I mean, that's, that's, that's the easiest way to say it.

David: Yes.

Seth: Oh, these were sub-Israelite Israel-

David: Think about the way they view-

Seth: ... because they don't live in the real, on the right side of the Jordan River.

David: Right. I mean, think about the way they view Samaritans-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, in the, in the New Testament. Yeah. So anyway-

Seth: It's interesting. Okay

David: ... that's what's happening here and why that's important. It, like, this spiritual elitism and the fear that they will be ostracized once they cross the Jordan, or at least their children will be in future generations, is what drives this conflict. Um-

Seth: So then-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that's what happens. What-

David: And one other interesting-

Seth: Oh, yeah

David: ... narrative thing here is, uh, you'll remember when we were recounting the story from Numbers, um, uh, the, the Transjordan tribes offer to go in and fight in the land to win, um, territories that they won't actually live in, and then they'll come back across the Jordan and dwell in the, their cities outside Canaan.

Seth: Yep.

David: Uh, so they're doing something selfless for the people of Israel. That selflessness is actually repeated to them here by the Israelites. So they're not... The, the people inside the land are actually doing something good here. They say, like, "Look, don't... I- if you're afraid-Of us keeping you out. Don't go across the Jordan, we'll give up some of our inheritance here for you. Live with us. We'd rather you take more of our land here in this land of Jordan, uh, or this land of Canaan than build this altar

Seth: Yeah

David: And so they're willing to give up some of their inheritance to these other tribes

Seth: Mm. Rather than, like, see idolatry-

David: Exactly

Seth: ... thrive in Israel.

David: Yeah. So it's like you have this, uh... I just think, like, in both stories, the stories in Numbers where the Transjordan tribes are willing to fight for the c- the people who all live in Canaan, and then here, where the people who live in Canaan are willing to give up some of their inheritance for the Transjordan tribes, you have this act of sacrificial giving of land that belongs to you, you're willing to give to somebody who doesn't deserve it. And I'm like, I love that picture of the gospel-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... where it's like Jesus earns the territory of heaven for us. He earned it for himself. It's his, it's his right, and he says, "Even though you didn't fight this fight," or, "Even though I fought it for you, here, come dwell where you don't deserve." Just like a cool little-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... thing that's happening.

Seth: Uh, the way the story's resolved-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is that essentially they say, "Okay, the reason we built it-"

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, wasn't to offer sacrifices on it, but because we were afraid of this spiritual elitism that we've already sensed. And then in verse 26 it said, "So we said let us build an altar, not for burnt offerings, not for sacrifice, but to be a witness between us and you, between our generations after us that, uh, that we do perform the service to the Lord in His presence with our burnt offerings and sacrifices and peace offerings so that your children will not say to our children, 'You have no portion in the Lord.'"

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The idea was, wasn't that it was a place of sacrifice, but it was more like what Joshua built. It's a stone of witness.

David: Yes

Seth: It bears witness to God's promises to them on the other side of the Jordan River.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's they're still recipients of God's blessing, God's covenant, God's sacrificial system, God's land. Like, they're still part of the family, and the reason they built it on the other side of the Jordan River isn't just the, so they could see it from their side, but so that Israel would know when they crossed over that they're still in God's territory even though they're outside the right boundaries.

David: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Seth: I'm doing air quotes that nobody can see.

David: [laughs]

Seth: But I'm like, I'm like, right boundaries within Jordan.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's what... And then they accept that-

David: Yep

Seth: ... as an explanation.

David: It's a, it's a, it's a, a, a gateway for Israel, uh, on the other side of the Jordan to... And, and it's an, and it's important that it's a replica of the altar, 'cause what they're saying is, "We won't offer sacrifices here, but we want it, we want you to see that our entry into the land is based on the same grounds, the same religious grounds that your continued involvement in the land is based on, the altar and the tabernacle. So when we come in, we are looking to the replica of the altar, um, as our one sure passage into God's presence in the same way that you look at the real altar as your one sure access into God's presence of the tabernacle." So, like, they're both looking to the same sacrifice, but from different sides.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know?

Seth: And, yeah. So that, and that's, and then they s- accept that explanation. It seems good in their eyes-

David: Yep

Seth: ... verse 30, uh, and they said, "Okay, today we know that the Lord is in our midst, and the Lord is in your midst," and, like, the co- the misunderstanding is resolved.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh-

David: Yeah, and it's really important then the way it, it ends, and, um, verse 34, "The people of Reuben and the people of Gad called the altar," capital W, "Witness, for," they said, "it is a witness between us that the Lord is God." And so, like, that word witness is gonna come up again, and, uh, it's just gonna be important. We'll talk about it later.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, an interesting thing about this as we try to see Jesus here is, um, Jesus's ministry also centers around the Jordan River.

Seth: Yeah, he's baptized in the Jordan River.

David: Yes, and then after he's baptized in the Jordan River, where does he go?

Seth: He goes into the wilderness.

David: He goes east of the Jordan-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... just like the Transjordan tribes.

Seth: Mm.

David: So the first place Jesus goes after being the altar, after saying, "I am going to be the altar"-

Seth: After the presence of God descends on him-

David: Exactly

Seth: ... like a dove.

David: And after John looks at him and says, "Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world," he is the final altar of God. He goes to the boundary between the good Israelites and the not so good Israelites, supposedly.

Seth: Mm. Right.

David: And then who does he go to first?

Seth: The ones that are looked down on-

David: Yes

Seth: ... by the spiritual elite.

David: That's right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And then he comes, then he goes and gathers them, in a sense, fights their spiritual battle for them in his temptation against Satan-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and then crosses the Jordan again and comes into the land of Israel. And so it's this picture that Jesus is going to be the final once for all altar for all nations.

Seth: Mm.

David: And in the same way that Israel was supposed to move from Canaan through the Jordan boundary out into the world, Jesus shows that he will be the one who moves from God's presence out through the boundaries of heaven and into all the nations.

Seth: It puts a totally different spin on Jesus's interactions with the spiritually prideful.

David: Yes.

Seth: Because it's like, man, oh, the Pharisees are spiritually prideful. They think that they're better than everybody else-

David: Mm

Seth: ... because they're, um, they follow the law better than everyone else-

David: Right

Seth: ... or at least they follow their own versions of the law better than everyone else. But okay, that's partly true, yeah.

David: Mm.

Seth: But it's also part of, like, an endemic issue within Israel itself.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, Jesus is doing battle with hundreds and hundreds of years of spiritual pride.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, and I, like, I just don't think I've had, like, this grand, like, category, this cos- almost cosmic category-

David: Mm

Seth: ... for, or history's long category for-Systemic pride against-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... people you think are spiritually inferior to you.

David: It's interesting that you say that, 'cause I mean, I think if you got a pulse check from most people in the street and be like, "How would you describe Christians?" A, a lot of them would probably say, "Proud."

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, bigoted. They look down on me.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, uh-

Seth: I had a, a woman in my neighborhood, she like didn't want us to know that she, like her and her husband like were, or her and her fiance were splitting up because she was afraid-

David: Oh

Seth: ... that we would judge her. I'm like, "Gosh."

David: That sucks.

Seth: I'm like, "Man, that sucks."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, and but it's interesting that God has known this about the human heart from the beginning.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, when he, right after in Deuteronomy, early on in Deuteronomy, after leaning into the fact that He chose Israel above all the nations, He makes sure to double down on why, and He says, "I didn't choose you because you were more numerous or more powerful or more righteous. I chose you because you were the weakest." And this gets repeated in the New Testament.

Seth: Mm.

David: That it's in our weakness He is made strong, right? That He chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. So like if you're a Christian, the badge, the title Christian should be a mantle of weakness and need. When people say, "Christianity's a crutch," you should be the first one to say, "No, 'cause a crutch says that I actually have one good leg." [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: You know? It's a wheelchair.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: You know? The Christianity's a wheelchair. It's a, it's a-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... iron lung. I need it to survive, that we are Christians because we know we are the least, and we know we are in the most need.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that should drive spiritual humility, not pride.

Seth: And even the way that the Pharisees would always like, the, the Israelites, the Israelite prostitutes, the Israelites tax collectors, the Israelite, uh, beggars-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the Israelite lepers, they were always less than.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's like that idea of separating Israel into two different categories-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and then Jesus leaving the Jordan River to gather the trans-Jordan tribes-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the least desirable Israelites, is functionally His entire ministry, not just the wilderness, wilderness wanderings.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: [laughs] It's like He is baptized. He becomes the altar of God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then He gathers disenfranchised, looked down upon, marginalized Israel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The ones that are considered spiritually inferior, and might be.

David: Right.

Seth: And might actually be spiritually inferior-

David: Right, yes

Seth: ... because of their sin-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... because of their-

David: I mean, it's a question people ask, like was, was the, were the trans-Jordan tribes right in numbers to stay outside? Was that sinful? Or like was that wrong? It's kinda suspect, you know?

Seth: Mm.

David: It's a misunderstanding at least.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's like maybe they, maybe there was something animating that. Maybe they were a little afraid. I don't know.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But it's like, uh, I think what, what's, what I wanna like lean into as we land this plane is I'm sure a great number of people listening to this do feel or have felt spiritual, spiritually inferior.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um, I know that's something that my mom talks about wrestling with that. Like whenever w- she was a pastor's wife, and yet she always looked down on. She always like was, was ac- like treated like she just wasn't the best-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... pastor's wife. You know? She didn't wear the right clothes, or she let her kids go to public school, or whatever.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And she was just maligned for those things.

Seth: Erica had never experienced those things-

David: Your wife?

Seth: ... personally, my wife.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But she, um, was always afraid of experiencing those things.

David: Yes. Yeah.

Seth: And like that, just that external pressure was-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... exhausting.

David: And so, uh, what I wanna say to all of us who have felt that way or are currently feeling that way is that Jesus is the altar that has borne all of the shame, inferiority, weakness, um, ostracization that you currently feel, and his death and resurrection stand on whatever invisible bord- borders or real borders and boundaries you are bumping up against in your life, his death and resurrection stand as a witness to you that you are the Lord's, and that you are not inferior, that you are loved and included and adopted and bought, that you can enter into God's presence with full confidence, because Jesus stands at the boundary for you.

Seth: Yeah. I'm also thinking about the other way that goes for those of us who are more prone to be like Phinehas-

David: Mm

Seth: ... than like the inferior ones.

David: That's good, yeah.

Seth: It's like maybe your righteous zeal-

David: Mm

Seth: ... towards those who you consider theologically inferior or less nuanced or sophisticated-

David: Not as pure, not as good

Seth: ... might actually just be your misunderstanding.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: [laughs] Like and their, the witness stands against you as well, 'cause the zeal with which you condemn others is the zeal with which the Lord will condemn you-

David: Mm, mm

Seth: ... as well.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Uh, that's what, that's what the all-

David: That's what Jesus says, yeah.

Seth: That's what the, that's what... Yeah, the, that's what Jesus says, and that's what the altar, the, the, what the, that's what the altar does.

David: Mm, mm.

Seth: Like it's a symbol of all of God's commands, and not even the spiritually proud can live up to it.

David: Yeah. Well, I think about the irony here that Israel, uh, inside Canaan, um, was angry at the trans-Jordan tribe for building the altar, but it was their superiority, it was their own sin that caused the fear in the trans-Jordan tribe to begin with. Uh, I'm thinking about like, um-

Seth: Mm

David: ... I'm trying to think if this actually happened or if it's just like a really good illustration.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I can't remember, but it's like, uh, 'cause I would probably tend to be more like Phinehas than-

Seth: Right

David: ... than the trans-Jordan tribe.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so I'm like, "I need to gut check myself here."

Seth: [laughs]

David: 'Cause it's like, uh, I could think of like I'm a community group leader, right? And let's say someone in our community group, um, was struggling with the fact that they just really haven't been attending lately, you know? And so they fin- a- and, and y- you know, they've missed a week, and they miss another week, and they miss another week, and I come to them like, "Hey, what's wrong?"

Seth: What's wrong?

David: Like, "Why have you-"

Seth: Don't you know that your soul's in jeopardy? [laughs]

David: Right, yeah. "Why have you apostatized?" You know, "What are you doing?" And they're like, "Oh, I was, I missed one week, and I was afraid that you would look down on me be, uh, when I come, when I came the second week, and I just was afraid. I wanted to avoid the shame."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's like we need to understand how sometimes the Phinehas' in the group can be complicit in the fear that animates what we perceive as sin in the trans-Jordan tribes of the group.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's just an interesting-

Seth: It is

David: ... double sword of sin. [laughs]

Seth: It really is.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which is played out in Israel on a national scale.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It plays out in our own personal lives.

David: It's like I wonder how much of this, uh, I-Like religious zeal meeting spiritual shame and fear creates a lot of the misunderstandings in our personal relationships, our marriages, our friendships, our churches anyway.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's crazy.

Seth: And then, then how does Jesus use his actual spiritual superiority? Like-

David: Oh

Seth: ... he is-

David: He is spiritually better than us

Seth: ... [laughs] he's spiritually better than us.

David: He lived in the real Canaan.

Seth: The r- [laughs]

David: You know. Oh, what's ironic here too is the altar that was in the tabernacle, right?

Seth: Yeah

David: ... was an actual, was a copy itself, but it was a copy of the heavenly altar, the real one.

Seth: Where Jesus came from.

David: Right.

Seth: Right

David: And so, like Israel itself had a copy of an altar.

Seth: Yeah

David: And they're judging somebody else's copy of an altar and being like, "Oh, our copy is better." [laughs]

Seth: That's funny.

David: But anyway, it's like their spiritual superiority is based on something erroneous. [laughs]

Seth: It's based on Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And when Jesus comes, He had every right to look down on the spiritually-

David: Yes

Seth: ... inferior copy of the altar that Jews have set up in the temple.

David: That's right.

Seth: But what does He do? He allows them to spear Him through like Phinehas-

David: Yep

Seth: ... so that the spiritually proud and the spiritually inferior, when they humble themselves to Him, might live in his land forever.

David: Yep. His death stands as a witness to both the spiritually inferior and the spiritually proud. That's so good.

Seth: There it is.

David: All right. Let's talk about Joshua's speech. [gentle music]

Seth: Okay, so Joshua, just like Moses before he died, Joshua is gonna give a speech to all of Israel.

David: Yeah. Can I ask you a question?

Seth: Yeah.

David: A few episodes ago, you asked me a question about time.

Seth: Okay.

David: And now I have a question for you about time.

Seth: Continue.

David: The chapter 23 starts with, "A long time afterward."

Seth: Mm.

David: Any idea-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what's [laughs] happening there?

Seth: Well, I had two thoughts-

David: Okay. [laughs]

Seth: ... about this because if you go back to chapter 21, um, it says the same thing.

David: Oh. [laughs]

Seth: It sa- or, or 20 I think. Uh, it says, "A, a long time afterwards."

David: Yes, I remember that. Yeah.

Seth: Uh, it's like right before the, the land allotments, so maybe it's back like at 13.

David: Yeah, it's back quite a ways, but yes, you're right.

Seth: Uh, it's the, it's the same phrases.

David: That's, that's, that's when you asked me the question.

Seth: Yes. Now, Joshua's old and advanced in years and the Lord said to him, "You are old and advanced in years," yet there re- re- remains very much land to possess.

David: So is it possible that this little transJordan tribe incident actually happened earlier? You know, like it was, it w- like it-

Seth: Yeah, it could be that.

David: Yeah

Seth: It could be that these are asynchronous and-

David: Yeah, which would be normal for Hebrew literature

Seth: ... which would be totally normal. Or it's like, okay, now go back to chapter 13. Like chapter-

David: Yes

Seth: ... 13 to 23 are like a parentheses.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's like, okay, Joshua was old, and here's what he did when he was old. He allotted all the tribal lands, all the cities of refuge, and he sorted out this thing-

David: Mm

Seth: ... with, uh, the transJordan tribes. Okay, remember how Joshua was old?

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Here we are again.

David: Yes.

Seth: I think that's probably the way to understand it.

David: That makes sense.

Seth: That, that threw me for a loop for a second as well.

David: It's just a callback to be like, "Remember I told you he was old. Let's finish the story."

Seth: Yes.

David: "Let's land the plane."

Seth: Yes. Okay. That's-

David: Let's, I buy that

Seth: ... that's, I think that's what's happening. [laughs]

David: [laughs] It's ultimately not that important.

Seth: No.

David: I was just curious what your thoughts were.

Seth: But it's real- I was like, I, I was thrown by when I read it. I was like, wait a second, I thought he was old a long time ago.

David: Now it's even longer. [laughs]

Seth: He's even older? [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: What happened? I think that's what happened.

David: Okay.

Seth: Uh, yes, so he's well advanced in years. And so Joshua summons all of Israel's leaders, and he basically commissions them, uh, to lead the people of God, um, into this next phase, this like decentralized phase of leadership after his death.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he repeats at the very beginning of the book, verse six, "Therefore be s- very strong to keep and do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses."

David: Mm.

Seth: Turning that aside from n-

David: Not turning aside

Seth: ... not turning aside from the right or the left. Idea is, I told you to be strong and courageous at the beginning when we went in to fight all these battles.

David: Mm.

Seth: You have a lot more battles to face. Be strong, be courageous, fight the wars that the Lord has placed in front of you. Don't neglect what, uh, God has already done through your faithfulness.

David: Yes.

Seth: Continue to be faithful.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's the major note. And he reminds them of all that the Lord has done. Verse 10, "One man of you puts to flight 10,000-"

David: Right

Seth: "... since it is the Lord your God who fights for you. Be very careful to love the Lord-"

David: Mm

Seth: ... "your God." It's like this final plea for, from Joshua to the leaders that are supposed to lead, who's to succeed him-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to follow the example he set-

David: Right

Seth: ... um, as he dies.

David: And it sounds, and you've already mentioned this, but it sounds eerily similar to the end of Deuteronomy in Moses' final speech. Like-

Seth: Eerily similar

David: ... all the same things that Moses said to Israel as they were going in to take the land, Joshua is now repeating to them as they are now living in the land and taking the rest of the land.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yes.

Seth: And he warns them. So it's like, "This is what will happen-"

David: Yeah

Seth: "... if you remain faithful."

David: Everything will be great.

Seth: "Fight well, everything will be great. But if you disobey the Lord-"

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... "fail to love him, worship the gods of the land, the, the, the land will be a snare to you and a trap for you and a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, and you'll perish off the good ground the Lord has given you," verse 13.

David: Mm. Yeah.

Seth: And then again in verse 15, "But just as all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the evil things until He has destroyed you. So if you transgress the covenant of the Lord."

David: Mm.

Seth: So it's like there is a conditionality to this victory they're experiencing.

David: Yes.

Seth: "The Lord will be with you. He will fight for you. Be strong to obey the commands. Be courageous to fight these battles, and everything will go well. As soon as you start to trust other gods, you shouldn't expect the same level of victory."

David: Mm. Yeah. Uh, why the conditionality?

Seth: Why the conditionality?

David: Yeah. Yeah, like what, like why is that such a big deal here in Joshua's speech?

Seth: I mean, it was a big deal in Moses' speech. Um, that's kind of the way, and that's kind of the good news of the Book of Joshua. It's like-

David: Mm

Seth: ... when you trust the LordHe fights your battles.

David: Right.

Seth: Disproportionately to your effort.

David: [laughs] And disproportionately to your trust.

Seth: Yeah. It's like you, you ha- like, even Jesus, like, "Faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains."

David: Right.

Seth: Like, if you just, like, trust God and walk around a wall-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... the army will be defeated. Like, it's like-

David: This isn't, this isn't works-based salvation here

Seth: ... well, it's, no, it's just like, "Trust the Lord-

David: Right

Seth: ... and He will do it for you."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, that's the-

David: Yeah, 'cause the o- the opposite is trusting other gods.

Seth: Yes.

David: If you trust idols because you've intermarried with pagans-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and you start loving their gods, you're gonna start trusting them instead, and your trust has gone away from God.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And what's... And who, who is God's, like, enemy?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Other idols.

David: Right.

Seth: So when you join yourself to other gods, you become part of what you've already been destroying, right?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, it's like if you-

David: Yep

Seth: ... start, like you're going out and destroying idolatry because God wants to destroy idolatry-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... because He's the Lord of all the earth.

David: Right.

Seth: And as soon as you join yourself to other idols, you're on the wrong side of the battle line.

David: Yeah, now you're becoming what's meant to be destroyed, so you will be destroyed.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So don't do that.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, that's... And that's His warning to the leaders.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And He repeats that same warning to all of Israel back at Shechem.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: If you're-

David: In, in chapter 24?

Seth: In chapter 24.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So if you remember, Shechem stands between Mount Ebal and Mount Gerizim.

David: Oh.

Seth: So that's all the way back in Deuteronomy 24, I think.

David: And it gets repeated in Joshua. We-

Seth: It gets repeated-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in Joshua, and on one mountain is the mountain of cursing-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and one mountain is the mountain of blessing. And there was this whole covenant ceremony where they all shouted the covenant promises, that they'll be faithful, they'll have long in the land, that they'll have fruit, and they'll eat trees that they didn't plant-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and vineyards, they'll drink wine from vineyards they didn't own, and everything will be great.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And they say, "Amen," to all the things-

David: Right

Seth: ... on the mountain of blessing.

David: Yes.

Seth: And then up on the mountain of cursing, "But if you disobey, this will happen, and this will happen, and this will happen." And they say, "Amen."

David: Amen, yes.

Seth: The same thing happens here-

David: Mm

Seth: ... at that same site, Shechem. The covenant is renewed.

David: Yes.

Seth: That same thing is repeated, but in front of all the people.

David: Uh, in between the two covenant ceremonies, in a sense-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... with the elders and with all of Israel, is kind of a repeat of their history.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That's, uh-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... interesting.

Seth: It is interesting, but it's also the way covenants are built.

David: Oh-

Seth: So-

David: ... that's right

Seth: ... yeah, so back at Mount Sinai, how did God begin the Ten Commandments?

David: "I am the Lord your God who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

Seth: That's exactly right, and most covenants in the ancient Near East began with the-

David: A recounting of the deeds of the king-

Seth: That's exactly right

David: ... who is now going to impose rules on the vassal, of the servants, the ones that are free.

Seth: That's exactly right. So-

David: Aha

Seth: ... this repetition of the history not only serves to build Israel's faith as they commit to the Lord-

David: Right, which is like that's the only category I had for it

Seth: ... but it also, it's like, it's the way covenants are made-

David: Yeah, I forgot about that

Seth: ... in general.

David: That's good.

Seth: And so after this long description of... And it's really long. You're like, in, in Exodus, it's one line.

David: It's one line, yeah.

Seth: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt."

David: Right.

Seth: Because that was all that had happened, really.

David: But in Deuteronomy, it's really long.

Seth: It's really long.

David: It's like the first three chapters.

Seth: And now here we have another really long-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... it's basically a summary of the last hundreds, uh, 40 years-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the wilderness.

David: And it's like God's been doing a lot of cool things.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's bought you. He's given you this land.

Seth: Well, actually, it goes all the way back to Abraham. His, his-

David: Oh, it does, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Your, yeah, your father Terra, like lived in the land of-

Seth: He was, uh-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... he was worshiping idols in t- in, uh, in, uh-

David: Oh, that's right. That's an interesting thing since he's talking about not worshiping idols.

Seth: Mm.

David: He says, "Now, remember, Abraham, your great-great-great-grandfather to whom I made this promise, he used to worship idols, and I freed him from that so that he might worship the one true living God."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Don't go back to the sins, uh, like of pre-me-saving Abraham." Like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... "That would be so regressive. Please don't do that."

Seth: Don't do that.

David: And yeah, they're going-

Seth: And then verse 14. So this 14 and 15 might be the most famous passage in Joshua.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: So after he recounts all the faithfulness of the Lord throughout all of Israel's history, he says, "Now therefore, fear the Lord and sin- serve Him in sincerity and faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served-

David: Mm

Seth: ... beyond the river in Egypt-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and serve the Lord. And if it's evil in your eyes to serve the Lord-"

David: Mm.

Seth: "If you don't like the idea of serving the Lord, choose."

David: Choose.

Seth: "Choose this day whom you will serve. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's the famous line from the Book of Joshua.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's Joshua r- affirming and buying into the Lord's covenant. It's his declaration of faith over the people of Israel, and he's calling Israel to follow God.

David: And to make a choice.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, ima- you can imagine him, like, being like, "Okay, look at the land. Look at the covenant. Look at the conditions. You know what's at stake here. You know, you can say no to this," which is just interesting.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, and he's like, "Look at all the idols. Do they look better to you? Feel free to choose one of them."

Seth: Yeah, "Go back to Abraham. You could, you could worship one of the gods there."

David: You could go, go back to Egypt.

Seth: Yep.

David: "Go marry with the Canaanites. This is your choice."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "But as for me and my house, we are going to choose to offer exclusive worship and trust to the Lord alone."

Seth: And as the leader of Israel, that carries, like, a lot of weight. That's not just, like, political flourish.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's like when the leader of a nation stakes his reputation on something, like, that's a big deal.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's like, "No, no, no, I've seen the other options, and this is the only God worth serving."

David: Yep.

Seth: "Follow me as I do this."

David: And you've seen it too, as you've seen him-

Seth: That's exactly right

David: ... give you victory after victory. And so they say, "We will. We will serve the Lord."

Seth: "Far be it from us-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that we w- should forsake the Lord to serve other gods, because God brought us out of Egypt."

David: Right.

Seth: "Of course we will serve Him."

David: And you're like, "Oh, great, you're tracking it." And you expect Joshua to say-

Seth: "Awesome"

David: ... "Awesome. Well done. I'm so excited you're on my team. Let's repeat those blessings one more time. Kick it up."

Seth: Ver- verse 19.

David: Not what he says. [laughs]

Seth: "But Joshua said to the people, 'You are not able to serve the Lord, because He is a holy God. He is a jealous God. He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins if you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, and it will turn you and do you harm and consume you after having done you good.'"

David: "You are not able to serve the Lord because He is a holy God."

Seth: Yes. And the, here's a question for me.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So this, this is conditional and seems non-conditional at the same time.

David: Yes, in the same sentence.

Seth: So the very first thing it says, "You are not able to serve the Lord your God, because he's holy." Okay, period? Yes?

David: [laughs]

Seth: And then it says, "If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn you, do you harm and consume you."

David: Mm.

Seth: Is he saying, like, uh, you will not able, be able to serve God if you forsake him for other gods, or is he saying, you will most certainly fail, period. Remember my warning if... It, it's like, it seems weird to be like, "No, no, this is a guaranteed outcome," and then follow it up with a condition, like, "But, but there's hope for you. If you ch- choose not to do that-"

David: Mm

Seth: ... "you'll be okay."

David: It's hard. That's a hard question. I think, one, we need to remember that he is repeating the prophecies of Moses from Deuteronomy.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Moses prophesied that Israel would rebel against God's laws and would follow after other gods once they entered the land, and they would rebel, and the land would become a curse to them, and they would be kicked out. And so in a sense, he has every right from his spiritual forefather, and I think we can assume, because it is a prophecy in Deuteronomy, that here Joshua is repeating that prophecy and saying-

Seth: Mm

David: ... "You cannot, you, sinful people, cannot perfectly serve a holy God. Those two things are impossible. But here's one little bit of hope for you." 'Cause, like, that's just true, right? Like, sinful people cannot perfectly serve a holy God. But here's a bit of the conditional truth that's good news to them, and it's like, if, it's just, but just don't turn aside to the other idols.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Just trust God. It's not gonna be perfect. You're not able to do it, but just trust him.

Seth: It's not about your moral perfection.

David: Right.

Seth: It's about your trusting in the Lord over and above the gods of the land.

David: Right.

Seth: Yep. That's what... Yeah. That's helpful.

David: Yeah, but I also think there is a bit of fatalism here, where it's like, is... We, and we also know it plays out in their history. Israel does worship other gods, and that's their downfall. You know, we're gonna read about that in Kings. Like, they just-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... they, it, it all happens

Seth: ... it, it plays out, Moses' prophecy plays out.

David: Yes.

Seth: Israel will abandon God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... until they're exiled and their land is taken from them.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, that's just true.

David: Yep.

Seth: Um, I think I was, I was str- I think I had such strong categories for that in Moses's-

David: Mm

Seth: ... speech that I was a little caught off guard when I read it expecting the same thing for Joshua, but felt like it was just toned back so much.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so it made me almost wonder, like, there's a different purpose in Joshua's speech than in Moses'. Maybe, like, was Joshua hopeful that maybe the disobedience was over?

David: Yeah, maybe.

Seth: And this was his, his way of, like, eliciting, no, a stronger yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, "You can't serve it." "No, we will. We know the consequences."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "We will most certainly do it."

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I was, like, kinda-

David: I don't know

Seth: ... caught off guard by, like, it wasn't as strong as I was expecting it, I think.

David: That's true. That's true.

Seth: That's what I was-

David: And like, and I think we, we do see some of that condition, conditionality versus certainty play out in Israel's history. You have people who do accept the condition and meet the condition. You know, I think of, like, Josiah.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: King Josiah, late in the kingdom of Israel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And he meets the condition, and he is saved.

Seth: Mm.

David: And his, his, like, i- like, he doesn't necessarily fall by the fate of same kings.

Seth: He's given a good verdict by God-

David: That's right

Seth: ... as are the kings. Like-

David: But Israel as a whole still is, uh, practicing spiritual idolatry and is killed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's like, I think it might be also, like, a corporate versus an individual condition-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... where there's a certainty that Israel as a whole will be, uh, drawn away by idols. But if you-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, you, y- you as a, as a household, you as a person can choose.

Seth: Hmm, that's interesting.

David: That is, yeah.

Seth: Because, like, even in, like, Judges, you have, like, all the leaders are just terrible.

David: Right.

Seth: But then you have Ruth.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: In the time of the Judges, you have this one faithful woman.

David: Yep.

Seth: Like, there, that's interesting.

David: Who says, yeah, but, like, "Your God will be my God."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And she moves from idol worship to Yahweh worship.

Seth: Regardless, though-

David: Anyway

Seth: ... of how the conditional... It's like, just flag it. It's like that tension between conditionality and unconditionality-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... plays out throughout scripture.

David: And isn't that the heart... We've talked about this before. That's the heart of the Book of Joshua, where it's like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... have they taken the whole land, or have they not? Like, will they be victorious in inheriting everything, or will they not? Will they utterly drive out everyone, or will they not? And it's like, yes and no. And like, it's, that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is the tension.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, that, uh, God, God, all of God's promises were fulfilled, and they had peace on every side. But they didn't utterly drive out da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And it's like, wait, did it or not?

Seth: Right.

David: And it's like, that's the point-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that tension. And I don't know what to make of it, but that's, that's the tension.

Seth: I mean, well, think about... I mean, there's more we could say about the, what's happening here.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But I'm also just thinking about the way conditionality and unconditionality play into the way the Lord, uh, Jesus interacts with us.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um, maybe we'll just say, though, we'll just flag that. Conditionality, unconditionality-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and Jesus' covenant with us-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... not just Joshua's covenant with the land or Israel's covenant with the land.

David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seth: But let's flag that. Let's finish the story-

David: Okay, yep

Seth: ... and then go back there.

David: Yep.

Seth: Um, so Joshua has his moment where he says, "You're not gonna obey, uh, because if you worship foreign gods, it's gonna be taken away from you." And then the people respond by saying, "No, we will serve the Lord."

David: Yeah.

Seth: They doubled down on their promise. And then Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourself that you have chosen the Lord to serve him." And they said, "We are witnesses against ourselves," which goes back to-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the witness that was set up.

David: The altar-

Seth: The altar

David: ... was called Witness.

Seth: Was called Witness. And so you have-

David: And you have another... And they speak all of this around a rock.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so they say, "Okay, here's this rock. It's heard everything that we've said." [laughs]

Seth: Yep.

David: It would be like us, this table that we, we-

Seth: It's like-

David: ... sit at every week to-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... do this podcast. It'd be like, "This, this table's heard everything we've said." They said, "This rock has heard everything we've said. It stands as a witness against you." And so he wrote all the, all the laws a- and all the covenants that he gave them on this rock, and he's like, "This is the witness stone." And so there are two stone objects in a sense that stand as a witness against Israel, um-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... now.

Seth: Yeah, they, they have the witness on the Jordan River.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And now they have this witness between the mountains-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of blessing and cursing. It's like, "You have said you will remain faithful to the Lord, and if you fail to do that, your own words will-

David: Will condemn you

Seth: ... will condemn you."

David: That's right.

Seth: Like, that's, and that's kind of the way his speech ends.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's like, "Your own words will condemn you, period." So Joshua sent his people away, every man to his inheritance.

David: Yep.

Seth: And they go in, and you're like, that's kind of a somber note to leave on.

David: Yeah. What's gonna happen?

Seth: Yeah. "Your own words will condemn you. Go and take the land the Lord's already given you."

David: Yeah. It's a great, ah, season finale of a Netflix special-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that you're waiting for the next-

Seth: Yes, yes, yes

David: ... season to come out. You're like, "What's gonna happen?" And you-

Seth: Right

David: ... and then Judges finally drops.

Seth: Yeah, you're like, "Oh, gosh."

David: You're like, "Oh, man, this is a dark comedy." [laughs]

Seth: This is a da- this is a dark season two. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: Um, and then after that, Joshua dies.

David: Joshua dies, yep.

Seth: Uh, the people inherit their land, and then j- ah, strange little detail, Joseph's bones are brought up out of Egypt and then buried in Israel.

David: Right, which is, ah, finally finishes the narrative ten... Like the, like the, like this pregnant hope at the end of Genesis, which was like, "Take my bones with you when you, like, and bury them in Egypt, or bury them in Israel."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, like, we've been waiting for that to happen. And that was kinda like the completion. We've s- we've joked around that Joshua is kinda like the unnamed actual end of the Torah. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because-

David: It actually feels like it ends the story.

Seth: Right, because-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that was, yeah, that's exactly right. Joseph preserved the people of Israel in Egypt, and his bones are finally buried and laid to rest with his people-

David: Yep

Seth: ... at the end of Joshua.

David: The story, the story and hope of Genesis, um, highlighted in Joseph's future hope in a promised land that God had guaranteed him, it finally lays to rest. And there's rest.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's the point, that there's rest in the land, even for the dead.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, there's Shabbat, there's Sabbath.

Seth: There's Sabbath. And then everyone that worked during this period of time also rests in death.

David: Mm.

Seth: Eleazar, the son of Aaron, died.

David: Yep.

Seth: They buried him. Phinehas, his son, died. Josu- J- Joshua's dead.

David: Yep.

Seth: So every notable leader of Israel is now resting.

David: Yep.

Seth: The people are now going into their inheritance, and the last word that we hear is, "Your own words will condemn you."

David: [laughs]

Seth: So it's like, that's a pretty, like, cliffhanger ending-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... for the book of Judges. Uh, but from there then, how do we see the Lord as good new- Jesus as good news-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in the middle of this cliffhanger?

David: Well, I mean, the first thing I think about is, like, is it still true today that... And is it true for everyone, maybe, let, let me s- ask this. Is it true for everybody without Jesus that you cannot serve a holy God?

Seth: Uh-

David: Like, that's the, that's the statement that's made-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... about these people. Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... we will serve Him. You can't, because He's holy and jealous, and you're going to give your allegiances to other things. You're going to care about your job more than Yahweh. You're going to care about your children more than God. You're gonna care about your car more than God. You know, you're going to have idols in your life.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And your allegiances are gonna be divided, and God wanting you to love the most lovable thing in the universe is going to be wholly and rightly jealous over you, and His-

Seth: And He'll want-

David: ... anger will burn hot.

Seth: And He'll want your whole heart.

David: Yep.

Seth: Not just part of it.

David: That's right. And so all, so no, because we have divided hearts, no one can perfectly serve a holy God. We've all turned aside to real or cultural idols.

Seth: And how do you know that? Like, just like, h- build that world out for me. Like, it's really obvious to me when you bow down to a gold idol in a temple.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm serving another god. Or place a couple coins in the dish of a, a Buddhist temple. Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... I get that. I get that version of idolatry.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: When you say things like, "I can't serve a holy God because I love my car more than the Lord-"

David: Yep

Seth: ... it's like, is it really that fuzzy? It's like, do you know-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to what extent your love for your car or your job or your bank account-

David: So in, i- so Martin Luther, his definition of idols in his, in his, I think it's his shorter catechism, I can't remember if it's shorter or longer catechism, he goes into a definition of idol by asking questions about it. So he's like, "So what does an idol do for a person?"

Seth: Okay.

David: And he's like, "Well, they go to it when they need something." So they look to it for their needs. We want rain on our land, or we want my wife to get pregnant, or whatever.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um, we, i- it has our hope and our trust. So we put our hope in it that, like, because I have this idol in my home, I can trust that things are going to go okay. And he goes into a few more.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But that's enough to lay our groundwork.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's like, we ha- we ask the question, like, what, before you were a Christian, [laughs] you know, what did you trust in? What do people trust in to get them the things that they need?

Seth: Uh, I mean, politicians.

David: Yep.

Seth: Uh, doctors.

David: Yep.

Seth: Uh-

David: Science.

Seth: Science.

David: Yep. And, and none of these are bad things.

Seth: Right. It's like-

David: Yes

Seth: ... like, we have this category that, well, gods are fake.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, idols are fake. Well, in the Hebrew mind, those were-

David: They are real

Seth: ... those are, that was technology.

David: Yes.

Seth: That was-

David: That was technology, yeah.

Seth: But that was the way in which you got the f- land to grow-

David: Yes

Seth: ... was like, you didn't g- genetically modify crops, you prayed to the gods-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and that's how you, they grew.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So it's like the way that we trust science is functionally the way that they trust, trusted their gods.

David: That's right.

Seth: They didn't see that as weird or, um, magical almost.

David: Yep.

Seth: They just was like, "This is the way the world works." Regardless then, so it's like doctors, science-

David: Uh, our paycheck

Seth: ... our paycheck.

David: Our ability.

Seth: Um-

David: Like, what do you trust for your happiness, your security, your provision, your contentment, your meaning, your purpose? You know? Like-

Seth: Mm-hmm. And the point is, if we were hearing the Book of Joshua to us, it's like we could never say, "Oh, I don't trust those things."

David: Right. And we would never be able to say, like, "I have only always 100% trusted God alone for all of those things."

Seth: Yeah.

David: No one could say that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Our hearts are divided, and you might trust God some of the time.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But even now, as a blood-bought son of Jesus-I still have divided allegiances, and I don't perfectly trust him all the time.

Seth: And God is like passionately jealous for all of our hearts.

David: Yes. He wants my whole heart because he knows it will bring me the most joy and because he deserves it.

Seth: And because he's a better provider.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's like, yes.

David: He wants good things for me.

Seth: He wants good things for me. It's like, yes, trust your doctor, but Jesus is a better physician.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, yes, trust money to put money in your bank account, but Jesus has the wealth of heaven behind him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like there's like, those are really hard for us to separate because they're so intricately connected with one another.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like, well, God's the one who provides my paycheck. Like what, what's the difference between-

David: Yeah, am I supposed to dismantle my job?

Seth: Yeah. It's like-

David: The way they dismantled idols?

Seth: It's a, but it's a, I think what you're getting at, it's like it's a disposition of your heart.

David: That's right.

Seth: Where-

David: Which that's what he says. He says, "Incline your heart. Put away your idols and incline your hearts to the Lord." That's what Joshua says to them after they reaffirm the covenant, because what you worship is what you love.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's a heart issue.

Seth: And so if that's our rubric-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... then it's like you are not able to serve the Lord because he is a holy God and he is jealous, passionate for my whole heart.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Man, that's true.

David: It's true.

Seth: That's true.

David: Yes.

Seth: I don't, I don't love God that way.

David: Yeah. And the New Testament would say that in fact, we were, we not only didn't love God wholeheartedly, we were his enemies. And yet the New Testament says that while we were still his enemies, Jesus came and he was the altar for us. He died for us.

Seth: And why are we his enemies? Because we're worshiping other gods.

David: That's right.

Seth: Just like what we said here.

David: That's right. We-

Seth: It's like when Israel worships other gods, they become God's enemies. They join themselves to the battle line-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that God's already drawn. We're his enemies.

David: We're on the wrong side of the battle.

Seth: Yes.

David: And yet Jesus comes and he dies for his enemies.

Seth: So then the, the next verse says, "He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Joshua 24:19, "He will not forgive your transgressions or your sins."

David: Right.

Seth: But then Jesus does?

David: No, Jesus bears the punishment that he's talking about for our transgressions and our sins. Our sins are not just, "Oh, oh, it's fine. Never mind. They're forgiven." No, this covenant of, uh, of condemnation for those who don't love God with their full heart was fully vetted on Jesus. Like he got it all. You know what I mean?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: It's the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the, the, the c- the, uh, the altar of cursing-

David: Yes

Seth: ... or the, the, the covenant of cursing that was pronounced from Mount Ebal.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Jesus absorbs it all.

David: That's right.

Seth: He gets all the curses-

David: Right

Seth: ... for disobedience so that his people can experience all the blessings of Mount Gerizim.

David: Yes. And so that means then that the cross now stands as a witness to us.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Whenever we feel shame, when we feel second class, when we feel like our spiritual elitism has disqualified us, when we feel like we haven't upheld the covenant like we should, when we feel like we can't fully love God with our whole hearts, when we feel like we could never serve a holy God right.

Seth: Or when we say, "No, we'll serve that God."

David: Right.

Seth: And then our words are a witness against us.

David: Against us, and we feel shame and condemnation.

Seth: The cross is a witness for us.

David: That's right.

Seth: There's no, therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

David: That's right. There is now no condemnation. Yeah.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That's the witness now. The cross is our witness stone. The cross is our witness altar, that those far can come near. Those who have broken the covenant can, uh, be restored. Like the cross stands as our witness.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We can look to it as Israel was supposed to look to the altar and the stone as a witness, and we can know that we are okay, that we are included, that we are safe, that we belong. And that is the hope that we need at the end of the book of Joshua. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, because there's these b- 'cause there's these unconditional, unconditional promises like still lingering on the horizon.

David: Yes.

Seth: "I will give you the land."

David: Yep. How can, how can people who can never-

Seth: I will not forgive you. [laughs]

David: Yeah. How, how can people who can never uphold an uncon- uh, or a, uh, their conditional side of the covenant be given unconditional love? Only in Jesus, who upholds all the conditions of the covenant for us and then is turning us into people who can serve a holy God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because what is he doing? He's making us holy like him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So how can, how can we as sinful people serve a holy God? We can't, right? But now we can because he's making us holy by living in us with his Spirit.

Seth: Yeah, like we are conditionally holy.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We are holy sometimes.

David: Yes.

Seth: Maybe.

David: Conditionally holy.

Seth: Uh, God is unconditionally holy.

David: Yes.

Seth: He is holy all the time.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We need to be made unconditionally holy.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so what does Jesus do? He fulfills the conditions of the commandments.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He had a choice.

David: Yes.

Seth: He didn't have to go to the cross.

David: No.

Seth: Like he could have had 12 legions of angels come down.

David: Yes. [laughs]

Seth: Like, like it was con- our salvation, our unconditional salvation, our unconditional inclusion is, in God's land was conditioned on Jesus' obedience.

David: Yes.

Seth: And he does it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He chooses to obey so that we might be blessed.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He chooses to be cursed so that we might come into the land and experience unconditional blessing forever.

David: Yeah. That's the book of Joshua.

Seth: And that's the book of Joshua.

David: Yeah. Thank you guys for being on this journey with us through this book. It's been really encouraging. Um, i- if you haven't yet, send in any questions you have.

Seth: Oh.

David: What'd you forget?

Seth: Just the last line.

David: Oh, sorry. Hold on.

Seth: So, "So Joshua sent the people away, every man to his inheritance." Remember, J- Jesus' name is Joshua.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: So at the end of the book of Joshua, you have Joshua sending people away to their inheritance with this looming threat.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Your words will judge you.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Your words will condemn you. But Jesus sends us away to our inheritance, not with a word of judgment, but a word of no judgment. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Go, every one of you, into your inheritance. It cannot be taken.

David: And therefore, I'm with you always, even to the end of the age.

Seth: I was just like...

David: Yeah. That's good. We are sent forth into the world with a sentence of no judgment.

Seth: There you go.

David: Oh, that's good. Anyway, if you have questions-

Seth: Anyway. [laughs]

David: ... uh, send them to [email protected]. If you have any, any questions about Joshua, um, we'd love to hear them, and, um, you can leave a review for the podcast, which helps us be discovered by other people, and we appreciate all you who have done that already. Thank you so much for being with us, and we will-

Seth: See you in Judges

David: ... see you in Judges.

Seth: Next week.

Outro: [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [outro music]

Related Resources

Listen to the Joshua Introduction podcast

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Listen to the Joshua 1-2: Be Strong and Courageous! And Rahab's Scarlet Thread podcast

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The Final Altar, the Final Warning, and the Final Joshua: How Joshua 22–24 Points to Jesus

Show Notes

A Familiar Misunderstanding and an Altar of Imposing Size

The Spiritual Lineage of Phinehas and the Irony of the Cross

Spiritual Elitism and the Jordan as a Boundary Line

The Altar as Witness and Jesus as the True Altar

Joshua's Farewell, the Covenant at Shechem, and "You Are Not Able"

The Cross as Witness and the Inheritance Jesus Secures

Related Resources

Introduction to Joshua

View our devotional on Joshua 1

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Joshua Introduction podcast

Listen to the Joshua 1-2: Be Strong and Courageous! And Rahab's Scarlet Thread podcast

Listen to the Joshua 3-5: Crossing the Jordan podcast

Listen to the Joshua 6-8: The "Battle" of Jericho podcast

Listen to the Joshua 9-10:28: The Sun Stands Still podcast

Listen to the Joshua 10:29-12: The Land Has Rest podcast

Listen to the Joshua 13-19: Land Allotments are Good News Too podcast

Listen to the Joshua 20-21: The Cities of Refuge podcast

Listen to the Joshua 22-24: Joshua Dies podcast