Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, I'm your host, David Bowden. [laughs] I've always wanted to do that, but-
Seth: And I am your also host.
David: You're... And this is my co-host, Seth Stewart.
Seth: Seth Stewart.
David: I've always wanted to do that.
Seth: Are we co-hosts, or are you the host and I'm the co-host?
David: I thi- I don't think that... Uh, can you have one co-host?
Seth: Ca- I don't know.
David: I don't know either.
Seth: In your mind, am I a co-host?
David: No, this is like-
Seth: And are you the host?
David: No, this is like-
Seth: Or are we hosting together?
David: We're hosting together.
Seth: I see.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We are equals after all.
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs]
David: At the foot of the cross.
Seth: At the foot of the cross. [laughs]
David: We're all equal.
Seth: And at the start of the book of Joshua, we are both equals.
David: We are?
Seth: Are we?
David: I don't know. You- I feel like you've spent more time in Joshua than I have.
Seth: I have spent a good bit, yeah.
David: I've been marooned on the island of land allotments. [laughs]
Seth: I've, I've done all the devotionals for Joshua except-
David: Except [laughs]
Seth: ... four, and they were all, "And this parcel of land goes to this tribe. And between the river of En Gedi and the river-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of so-and-so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this tribe."
David: You were Joshua, and you allotted me the land-
Seth: [laughs] I did
David: ... of the land allotment passages [laughs] to write devos on.
Seth: So get excited, guys, whenever those drop on-
David: Yeah, David wrote those.
Seth: David wrote those.
David: The co-host.
Seth: And they're great. We've been talking about them a lot.
David: Well, thank you. Um, but yeah, we, uh, covered a lot of ground-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in our overview-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the Book of Joshua last week, and now we're jumping into chapters one and two.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, which o- one, I feel like, has one of the most famous passages in the Bible.
Seth: Yes, "Be-"
David: And two, ha-
Seth: "... be strong and courageous."
David: Yep. "Be strong and courageous." And the s- and chapter two has one of the most famous stories in the Bible.
Seth: Yeah, Rahab the prostitute saving the spies.
David: And the scarlet cord. [laughs]
Seth: And the scarlet, the infamous-
David: Scarlet cord
Seth: ... infamous, like, really infamous scarlet cord. Um, yeah.
David: [laughs] Sorry.
Seth: What?
David: We'll, we'll get, we'll talk about it when we get there. The-
Seth: Just lo- preload it. Like-
David: Uh
Seth: ... give us a t- taste.
David: I just wanna, I wanna make sure... Just, m- we did this a long time ago with Moses' arms being lifted up.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: About how has this passage been preached badly?
Seth: Oh, yes, yes.
David: I wanna do that with Rahab and the scarlet cord too.
Seth: Get excited, guys.
David: Okay. [laughs] Man.
Seth: Um-
David: Anyway
Seth: ... so what you should know as you get into the meat of the book of Joshua is that the first 12 chapters are really focused on the conquest of the land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So that's the first half of the book is-
David: Okay
Seth: ... Israel taking over the land, and the last half of the book is, like, the tribes getting their inheritance and Israel's finally settling in the land apart from warfare. So really, we're about to get ready for 12 chapters of warfare-
David: Mm
Seth: ... taking the land, taking over cities, and the way that God's doing that in, through Joshua.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, like, that's what's happening right now.
David: Okay. So this is, like... So what's happening here is, like, g- like, we're being primed for conquest.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, okay. I follow that.
Seth: So we're being primed for conquest, and it's really important that we keep a couple things in mind as we think about the conquest. One, the land of Canaan is a gift.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So verse, uh, two, "I am giving to you, to the people of Israel, every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon."
David: Oh, verse, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, verse two.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the land of Canaan is a gift from God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So that should, like, probably signal a couple things in our mind. This isn't, like, um, this isn't Joshua being greedy for land.
David: Right.
Seth: This isn't Israel having land lust or wanting better land than the wilderness, although a little bit.
David: They didn't wanna go in at all. [laughs]
Seth: They didn't wanna go in at all. There was, they were too strong, too numerous, they were too few. Uh, this is God's gift-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and his fulfillment of his promises.
David: Yes.
Seth: So primarily at the outset, this is not about conquest, uh, military, militarism.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is not about-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israeli militarism. It is about God's faithfulness to his promise to give them a homeland.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I just wanna, like, center God's action and God's fulfillment and God's role in here before we even get into the-
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that's really good, and I think it's highlighted really heavily in verse three. You've, you've mentioned one of the words.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, uh, "Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon, I will give you, just as I promised to Moses." I think there's a couple things that are being signaled here, that as we're thinking about land and God giving people land, if you were a, a Jew reading this text, you would be, like we talked about in the overview, signaled back to the Garden of Eden. It's like, what-
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah
David: ... what was the place where m- man and God lived together, the, a land God gave humans? Oh, the Garden of Eden. And then here we have two, uh, kind of, like, very, uh, keyword themes drawn out. So we have this idea of Joshua's foot, the sole of Joshua's foot-
Seth: Yeah. Okay
David: ... treading on the land and conquering it. This should remind us of Genesis 3:15.
Seth: When, uh, w- God tells the serpent that Eve's descendant would crush his head.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: So here we have one of the representative heads of Eve's descendants-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... treading on the land of Canaan, which is a land of evil.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, the seed of the serpent, the Canaanites, the Nephilim that we read about back in Genesis-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... live in this land.
Seth: Yep.
David: And they are about to be tread upon. And so this is a fulfillment-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the promise God made to Eve and her descendants back in-
Seth: Right
David: ... Genesis 3.
Seth: So again, this isn't about militarism. This is a theological battle against the seed of the serpent.
David: Yes.
Seth: So even the Nephilim in Genesis cha- so the Nephilim, strange story-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in Genesis chapter 6 where the sons of Gods, like this, this phrase-
David: Whatever they are [laughs]
Seth: ... whatever they are, have sex with the daughters of men-
David: Women
Seth: ... women and create giants.
David: Yes.
Seth: So-
David: Half human, half d- d- deity, like spirit-
Seth: Beings
David: ... spirit beings.
Seth: So there's a lot of interpretations of that.
David: Yes.
Seth: But what's most important about that is that they are, um, corruptions-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of God's natural order.
David: They are viewed from the beginning as wicked.
Seth: As wicked and, like, embodiments of the curse.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, like literal physical embodiments of the curse, and they lived all throughout the land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like, and th- that's in Numbers 13-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... talks, and Genesis, and every time they try to go in the land, they mention the Nephilim are there.
David: Yep.
Seth: And-
David: And later in the land allotment passages, we'll hear that Caleb goes and defeats some of the descendants of the Nephilim in his territory.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So again, this is God's gift fulfilling God's promises and God's enemy, the f- the embodiment of the curse, lives in this land.
David: Yes.
Seth: And Joshua's treading upon-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the embodiment of the curse, the seed of the serpent.
David: Yep.
Seth: This is a theological work-
David: Yep
Seth: ... not a militaristic one.
David: So this is, yeah, so it's, it's, so that's the first thing from the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we should be clued in on.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The second is this idea of subduing the land, right? That, that he's going to tread upon the land, and wherever he sets his foot, it will be given to him. So this is, um, a continuation of the fulfillment from Genesis 2:28 where God gave dominion to Adam and Eve and told them to fill the Earth and subdue it. Now they are being told to fill the land and s- and subdue it, to go into the land, subdue it, to take it over, and it will be theirs, and they will fill it. And so again, this is, this is the Garden of Eden being recreated by the, um, uh, the judgment of God a- against the people of Israel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... through-
Seth: And maybe-
David: ... his chosen people
Seth: ... so maybe a, a helpful metaphor for this is just imagine a gardener.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, like, the Garden of Eden was this perfect place that, um, corruption, sin, evil entered. So imagine, like, a perfect, beautiful cottage garden in the English countryside somewhere, and, like, now there's just oil barrels everywhere and weeds and everything. And it's just the whole land is taken over by waste and destruction, and the beauty that was once there is just, like, kind of marred, like diminished, barely there.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Joshua comes into the land to reclaim it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's gonna clean up the trash-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he's gonna pull all the weeds, and he's gonna remake it into the Garden of Eden. He's gonna subdue the land. He's gonna rule over it properly, weed out the sinfulness in it, and, uh, bring God's presence-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with him back into God's place so that the Garden of Eden could be remade again.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, that's what's gonna happen.
David: Exactly right. And it, th- I mean, this is all really good news that is finally accomplished in Jesus because all this language is used about Jesus as well.
Seth: Yes.
David: So we're told that all things are put under Jesus's feet.
Seth: Yep.
David: That not-
Seth: That's right.
David: Because, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that's territory language. We've ta- you can talk about Jesus crushing the head of the serpent, Satan, on the cross, but also, there's territory language talked about-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Jesus's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... dominion that he's given.
Seth: I ne- I never thought about that. You're right.
David: He's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he's, he's seated at the right hand of God, and all things are placed under his feet.
Seth: Huh.
David: So he is the new and better Joshua, who is also named Joshua- [laughs]
Seth: Right
David: ... who subdues the whole Earth, and he has dominion over all of it.
Seth: Mm.
David: And wherever he sets his foot, which is everywhere, he's omnipotent, he's omnipresent-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he has dominion over it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His kingdom comes.
David: His kingdom comes.
Seth: His come, his kingdom-
David: That's right
Seth: ... Garden of Eden comes.
David: Um, and then wherever he puts his foot, right, he subdues that territory.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Jesus, Jesus's feet went into the grave-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and he subdued that land. It was his. Now, now the realm of the dead is owned by Jesus. Like, he conquered it. It's his, and he can ransom from, from it whomever he wants.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know, like, it's just like a beautiful-
Seth: That's good. That's really good
David: ... way to think about that. And then we're told that he will come and fill the Earth, just like-
Seth: Just as Joshua is told that you're gonna fill the land of Canaan.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, he will come, and his presence will fill the whole Earth.
Seth: So what Joshua is attempting to do in the land of Canaan, Jesus does over the entire world.
David: Yes.
Seth: What Joshua is doing with the Canaanites, Jesus does with the cause of the Canaanites' sin, sin itself, death itself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He undoes it. He doesn't just recreate a g- Garden 2.0. He takes us back even f- like, he does it better than the first Garden.
David: He does it better than the first Garden.
Seth: It's like it's not-
David: He, he, he does-
Seth: It is Garden 2.
David: It is-
Seth: Joshua's update 1.1. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, the Garden of E-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like Jesus brings, like, the new Garden, where not even death is allowed anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: Not even sin-
David: He-
Seth: ... can enter
David: ... Jesus, Jesus did and finished what Adam and Eve were supposed to do.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, they were supposed to fill the Earth and subdue it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Jesus did.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he, and they were supposed to fill the Earth with God's image. Jesus will.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, like, Jesus brings the full Garden. It's not a new Garden. It's not an old Garden. It's not a reboot.
Seth: Right.
David: It is the fulfillment, the finished work that Adam and Eve were supposed to begin-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that Joshua was trying to reboot, Jesus finally does-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whenever he-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... conquers all evil, all sin, all death, and then when he returns, he will actually fill the Earth and subdue it with his glory.
Seth: That's great.
David: So, like, that's what, that's good news in the first three verses of Joshua.
Seth: In the first three verses.
David: Um, yeah.
Seth: And it continues-
David: It continues
Seth: ... because there's, so God's gift of the land, uh, God's, uh, prom- the fulfillment of his promises, the victory of his people is conditioned on a couple things.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he says, "The way that you'll take over the land, the way that you'll defeat your enemies, the way that you'll have a homeland, is by, uh, is through his presence and through being strong and courageous."
David: Mm.
Seth: So three different times, we're told that G- uh, that- Israel or Joshua himself is supposed to be strong and courageous. And four different times, we're told that the Lord is with them.
David: Mm.
Seth: So verse, uh, five and six, "No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you or forsake you. Be strong and courageous, for you shall cause this people to in- inherit the land. Only be strong and very courageous, doing all-"
David: Mm
Seth: ... that the law requires. So how do we get God's pre- blessing? How do we get back to the Garden of Eden? How do we walk into the land? How do we defeat our enemies? By realizing that God is with us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then being strong and courageous in that fact.
David: Mm.
Seth: So those are, I think those are like ano- another, like they're really important to the Book of Joshua as a whole. Those are just really important to the Christian life, and they clue us in to an earlier story in the book, in, in the Bible as well. So whenever Israel was first going into the land of Canaan, God told, God said, "I will be with you."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He was with them. There's a pillar of cloud. There was a pillar of fire, like he'd spoken from Mount Sinai, and he told them to go into the land, and they refused to go. They were too afraid.
David: Yes. There's a story before this, though-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that, um, after the golden calf-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, in Exodus 33, God says, "I will not go with you." And then Moses intercedes and says, "Go with us, Lord."
Seth: Right.
David: "Because if you do not go with us, I'm not going anywhere."
Seth: Right.
David: "I'm not going anywhere without your presence. If you don't go with us, we will fail. No one will know that we're your people." All, so Moses pleads-
Seth: To make sure that God's pre-
David: To make sure that God's presence is going to be there, and then God is saying, "Just as I was with Moses on the basis of his intercession-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and my faithfulness to him, I will be with you, too, Joshua."
Seth: Yes.
David: Anyway, I just thought that was-
Seth: Yeah, yeah. So it's like-
David: ... an interesting little thing
Seth: ... there will be no victory in battle.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There'll be no fulfillment of God's promises without God's presence.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Huge-
David: Huge theme in the Book of Joshua.
Seth: Well, hu- and, and the whole Bible.
David: The whole Bible. [laughs]
Seth: The whole Bible.
David: It's-
Seth: Immanuel is God with us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's what, Jesus is [laughs]
David: That's not what I heard.
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's not what I heard. That's really funny.
Seth: Uh-
David: Um, yes, yeah
Seth: ... that's exactly right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So there's, like, this really close connection between being strong and being courageous, between God's presence, the courage that brings, and the strength it takes to obey God when he actually says something.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, like, I, I think the way this text is normally preached, "Be strong and be courageous."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like Christians are cowardly. They don't wanna speak up for, uh, the biblical, b- the Bible's values. They don't, uh, they're, they're kowtowing to culture, and they're just compromised people. The way that we gain victory is by being strong, being bold, and being courageous.
David: Taking risk.
Seth: Taking risk, doing the right thing. It's like there's good messaging, good messages in being bold and being courageous. But I think what's really happening here, it's not so much being strong and courageous in the face of an onslaught of culture.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's being strong and courageous in light of God's presence being with you.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's like it's not about the b- the enemy, being strong and courageous in the face of an enemy. It's being strong and courageous in the knowledge that the Lord your God dwells with you and is fighting for you and is fighting with you.
David: Mm. You're not being strong and courageous because of an enemy. You're being strong and courageous because of your ally.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: That's good.
Seth: So being strong and courageous, it really is like a form of faith. It's like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... do you trust that God is fighting by your side?
David: Right.
Seth: Do you believe that his words and his commands will actually bring about your victory?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Do you trust that? And what he's telling Joshua is, "If you have faith in my presence, if you trust in my presence, victory will come. If you trust that I'm with you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... your enemies will scatter. If you believe that I am with you always and will not leave you and will not forsake you, you will have victory and you will have rest."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, victory-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... subduing the land of Eden-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is dependent on the trust in God's presence.
David: Yeah. I have a lot-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... uh, that's going through my brain right now. This is really good. Um, okay, first, uh, uh, on, on, uh, 'cause I think it's more important, so I wanna make sure we get to this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, is, like, why is God's presence so necessary or so good or so important? You know what I mean? Like, why harp on it here? I mean, number one, the first thing, and, like, this is just, I'm not trying to answer my own question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm just highlighting it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, whenever he says, "I will be with you," he's just saying the name that he gave Moses.
Seth: I am.
David: He's saying, yeah, Ehye.
Seth: Ehye.
David: Yeah, which is I am. Yeah, Yahweh is he is.
Seth: Yes.
David: Ehye is I am.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, he's say- and that's what he's saying. He's saying, "This is the name I gave Moses. Just as I was, I, just as I was with Moses, I'm gonna be with you, and just as I told Moses Yahweh, I'm telling you Yahweh. I am with him, I am with you."
Seth: Yes.
David: So, like, this is very important to this passage.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, I, I mean, and then, like, we have all this Garden of Eden language, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where it's like, what is the Garden of Eden? It's a place that God is.
Seth: Yeah, he-
David: Like, is, is with his people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like you can't have the garden without God.
Seth: Yep.
David: You know? And so there's all this swirling around, and it's like, why is the presence of God so necessary to the success, flourishing, um, uh, uh, like, the being of his people.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, it's just something I'm curious about here.
Seth: Um, I mean, without God's presence, you said it, you don't have a garden.
David: Mm.
Seth: Without God's presence, you don't have creation. Like, without God being present, you have nothing. Like, the spirit was hovering over the face of the waters.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's from God's presence, God said, "Let there be light." Like, there is something in the... I think even, like, that's deficient in my own imagination, where it's like God's presence takes on this weird kind of quality. It's like, it's that thing I experience when I'm worshiping.
David: Right.
Seth: Or it's that thing that's kind of nice when I'm, like, really struggling with something, and then I just feel a sense of peace-
David: Mm
Seth: ... come over me. And, like, those are manifestations-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... those are experiences-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... that we can have with God's presence. But, like-
David: That's not all of it
Seth: ... that's not all of it, and it's not even the way that, like, the primary way that we, I think the Bible-
David: Mm
Seth: ... invites us to think about God's presence.
David: Yeah, probably not.
Seth: It's like the presence of God, like, is creative.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's empowering. It... Without it, nothing else happens. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Maybe the way that in, in the, in, uh, the Epistles, Paul says, like, "It's by him, from him, and through him-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... are all things, and he upholds the world by the word of his power." Like, there is a sense that God's presence is s- like, is intrinsic and necessary to, like, the very atoms and molecules of the world in such a way that without God's presence, everything else falls apart.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I think that's, like, a, like, a real big meta picture. Like, what, what does God's presence mean? And then particularly once the world is created, like, you don't have peace without God's presence.
David: Rest.
Seth: You don't have rest.
David: That's the, that's the word for Joshua, is rest.
Seth: Is rest.
David: Shalom.
Seth: You don't have rest without God's presence.
David: Right.
Seth: You don't have victory without God's presence.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anything good, any blessing, any inheritance, any hope is, like, unable to be obtained without God being present. I mean, I think that's getting somewhere near-
David: Yeah, it is
Seth: ... what's happening.
David: Yeah, I think it, I think you're right. I think we both are struggling through a deficient imagination about God's presence, and I, I love that we're trying to meditate on God's presence in Joshua 1. Like, what is Joshua 1 trying to show us about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God's presence? And I'm like, if it is all this garden language-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right, then it would make a lot of sense that to, to view God's presence as, as creative. Because in verse four-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it even mentions bodies of water.
Seth: Yeah, [laughs] it does.
David: It talks about the Euphrates, and, like, it's like the Great Sea, and it's, like, this, this picture of Yahweh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... hovering over his people, being with his people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... over these waters.
Seth: Setting the boundaries of a new Eden.
David: Yeah, setting the boundaries of a new Eden.
Seth: Beginning this new creative work-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... where he will be with them.
David: Yes.
Seth: Where he won't leave them or forsake them.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah. And-
David: And that, like, I wonder, too, how much of this language about, uh, you will have success, it will go well with you, you will have victory, um, all this stuff is tied up in because I will be with you, is like g- like God's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... presence isn't this mercenary thing we use to get something else-
Seth: Right
David: ... the land, in this instance.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Instead, the great success of taking the land is that we have a place to be with God. God is with us-
Seth: Yes
David: ... so that God may continue to be with us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Is it, like-
Seth: The land serves our ability to be with God's presence.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: And it's only good insofar as it serves that purpose.
Seth: Right, and if you have the land without God's presence-
David: You have-
Seth: ... it's, you have nothing
David: ... nothing.
Seth: You have nothing, which is the Book of Judges, right after the Book of Joshua-
David: Oh, right. Yeah
Seth: ... pretty, pretty vividly pictures.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like, yeah, God's presence is the hope of the book, the Torah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's also kinda the hope and driver of the Book of Joshua.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's also the hope of a Christian.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like if we get victory over death, the defeat of sin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... peace from our enemies, how does that come? Through God's presence, through Emmanuel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God with us. And when we are courageous and we are brave to trust that God is with us more so than the culture is against us, what can stand against us? That's what Paul, that's what Paul says in Romans 8:1, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... if God is for us-
David: For us
Seth: ... who can be against us? Like, there's this courage that comes from knowing that God is not just with us in this theological or even, like, military sense that he's in Joshua-
David: Right
Seth: ... but he has come to this earth and lived as a human with us in Jesus. And if that's true, there are no... And if he went to death and defeated death-
David: Mm
Seth: ... what can be against us?
David: Right.
Seth: God is with us powerfully to provide victory, to provide rest, to provide a land, to provide a home.
David: Yeah. What's amazing about Jesus is he fulfills both parts of this equation. He is with us in Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but then he was also strong and courageous [laughs]
Seth: Yes
David: ... to obey the law, to go to the cross, to die our death-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... to defeat, to defeat it. Like-
Seth: Yep
David: ... he, he does it all.
Seth: He does it all.
David: And it's like, it's so cool.
Seth: And I also think it, the word strong and courageous are really helpful for the ways that Jesus talks about, like, trusting in him.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, you should count the cost. If you're not willing to leave father and mother-
David: Right
Seth: ... and brother for me, then you have no part of me. Like, there is an element to trusting the nearness of God that's, that is risky, that does require you to say no to your previous-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, uh, like, your previous pursuits, your pr- the things you trusted in to provide you-
David: The old kingdom
Seth: ... the old kingdom life.
David: The old land.
Seth: To, to say no to all that-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... requires a certain degree of bravery, um-
David: And courage
Seth: ... and courage-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as you turn to Jesus.
David: Right. But it's all rooted in h- him being with you.
Seth: Right. But it's all, but he'll be with you.
David: Which is the good news of, uh, the Holy Spirit, you know, like at the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... end of Matthew 28, at the end of Matthew-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in 28, he says, he, he quotes this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "Never will I leave you. Never will I forsake you."
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: It's like, "I'm with you always, even to the end of the age." How? Through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he's with us-
Seth: I think-
David: ... right now, Christian. Like-
Seth: I think another way to think about this, so just like if you imagine, like, either making the decision to become a Christian for the first time-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or even as just like, "Lord, like, I want more of you in my life, but I seem to just be, like, hamstrung everywhere I turn."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the way that we normally look at our workplace or the surrounding culture or our family, like the fam- the anxiousness in our family when we go for a family reunion is like, man, that place is scary.
David: Mm.
Seth: I don't really know if I can be a Christian there. The, but, but the best thing I can probably do is just, like, downplay my religious convictions, not really talk about Jesus-
David: Right
Seth: ... not really, like, engage on that level and just let the status quo remain. And we, because, I think, we just assume that if we say anything out loud, that c- that country, that kingdom, that workplace, that family structure is just gonna turn on us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and attack us and overtake us, and we're gonna be too weak to withstand against it. But what I think the, the Book of Joshua would encourage us with is, no, the Lord is with you, and if you're, like, bold, if you're strong, if you're courageous to, like, plant a flag-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the name of Jesus in those places, the opposite is true. The enemies actually flee. Jesus's presence rushes upon you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by the power of the Holy Spirit, and when governors and bosses and mothers and matriarchs and patriarchs come to you asking you things, the Holy Spirit will give you words to say. Like-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... like, what ends up happening in those moments that we're most afraid of is the Holy Spirit acts most powerfully to influence and to be with us and to cause God's kingdom to be, to, to grow-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to, into, into those places. Like, he will be with us always, even to the end of the age. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that happens in those moments. So as a Christian, we can be strong and courageous in ways that we probably haven't thought about before. We're so used to thinking of the enemy kingdom as stronger than the kingdom of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... that it's difficult for us to believe, like, well, if I plant a flag, the Holy Spirit's gonna rush on me, and the world's gonna be taken over for him. Like-
David: It's a different paradigm
Seth: ... it's a different paradigm, and it's the paradigm that Joshua preaches to us-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the paradigm that Jesus preaches.
David: And it's not because you're strong and courageous. It's because he is with you.
Seth: It's because he is with you.
David: So be strong and courageous.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Um, the last thing I want us to tie up in this section is, um, the connection between being strong and courageous and obeying the law and keeping the law. We, we, there's this, there's this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... triple dichotomy that, uh, that hi-
Seth: Triple di-
David: Triple dichotomy
Seth: ... trichotomy?
David: Trichotomy. No, no, 'cause it's, it's three dichotomies. [laughs]
Seth: Three dichotomies. [laughs]
David: Uh, but they're all about the same thing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: So you have... You, you mentioned one of them earlier, that God is with us, but you have to be strong and courageous. So that is like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... wait, is it, is it God or me? Or, like, the, uh, as it's, as it's worded here, um, "You shall cause this people to inherit the land, Joshua. You shall cause this people to inherit the land that I swore them." It's like, wait, hold on.
Seth: Yes.
David: So is it God being with us and his promise, or is it Joshua's action? And then you have it again a third time-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with, um, "If you obey my commands and do not stray from the right or to the left, then you will have success."
Seth: Right.
David: And so it's like you have to obey in order to be successful, and so it's like this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... it's like this guaranteed thing that's gonna happen, but it's tied up in all these conditions of-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... be strong and courageous. You-
Seth: Have faith, trust
David: ... you have to go cause it and be obedient to the law.
Seth: Go actually fight the battle. Yeah, yeah.
David: And so it's like this, it's this weird faith works. Is it determined, ter- determined or not? Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... I just thought it was an interesting tension in the opening chapter that I... And it, and it, and it f- feels like the law again. It feels like the Torah again.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Meaning, like, if you do good, g- you'll be blessed. If you do bad-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you won't be blessed.
David: But I will be with... Uh, but there are all these, but there's always these unconditional promises-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... embedded inside of the law that it seems like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God in his faithfulness will come through on regardless.
Seth: Yes.
David: But it will require a faithful remnant, and it's like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... it's just that weird thing again, the, between, like, God will do it, and we will do it. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, which is beautiful. God doesn't act alone. He chooses to include us in his purposes and plans.
David: It's the Garden of Eden-
Seth: It's the Garden of Eden
David: ... all over again. God made everything and then gave dominion to man to co-labor with him.
Seth: Does God cause the plants to grow or does Adam? Yes.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: And God invites human beings to partner with him in his work of new creation on the earth with his presence-
David: Mm
Seth: ... unafraid.
David: Yeah. Uh, great. That solved quicker than I thought it would. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Uh, then my last question then will be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, w- why... It seems here, am I wrong?
Seth: Okay.
David: It, it seems that being strong and courageous equals obeying the law.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's not only go in there and show those Canaanites who's boss, which is kinda how it's read, you know?
Seth: Right, right.
David: Just everywhere you step your foot, it's yours, man.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And it's like also, like, read the Torah really closely. Don't let it depart from your mouth. Meditate it on it day and night.
Seth: Yes.
David: That is being strong and courageous, is being a Torah nerd.
Seth: Well, very, very, very last verse of Joshua 1, "Whoever rebels against your commandments and disobeys your words, whatever you command him, uh, whatever you command him shall be put to death. Only be strong and courageous." It's like obey the law or be put to death. Be strong and courageous. Obey the law. [laughs]
David: Yeah. So, like, why then is obeying the law a, a synonym for being strong and courageous?
Seth: Because-
David: I don't think about obeying my Bible as an act of strength and courage.
Seth: Uh, yeah. Well- The Bible, the laws of the Bible, the commandments of the Bible are extensions of God's presence.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: They're an extension of God's character.
David: Yes.
Seth: So when the law says, "Do not kill," it's actually a way to embody in your legal code the lo- the God of life.
David: Right. Right.
Seth: So to whatever extent you disobey the law, you're denying part of God's presence. You're like, you're pushing against the, the way in which God's presence wants to infect and infiltrate your society-
David: And yourself
Seth: ... and yourself.
David: Right.
Seth: So and then what ends up happening, though, is the law of God ends up cutting across the ways that we would prefer our life to be-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... cut across our preferred mo- means of, like, providing justice, our preferred means of settle, sexual satisfaction. The law has a whole bunch of commands that kinda cu- go against the grain of our culture.
David: Right.
Seth: And every culture.
David: Yes.
Seth: Israelites' culture, it doesn't, it doesn't matter.
David: It doesn't matter.
Seth: Every culture.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so what ends up happening is, like, at some point, your culture will have to die. Your preferences will have to die, and it will cro- uh, co- uh, require a good bit of bravery on your part-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to accept the commands of the Lord as good for you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, because they are not what you're familiar with.
David: Right.
Seth: They're from a culture that's different from yours, and they seem to require more sacrifice than they're worth-
David: Yep
Seth: ... on the front end.
David: That makes a lot of sense. It takes strength and courage to obey the counter-cultural laws of God's word.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the good news is that God is with us in His Holy Spirit to cause us to obey those laws.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's the promise that Ezekiel made in the new covenant. The new covenant is that God turns us into people who have the strength and courage to obey His law by being with us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Think about, um, the-
David: And it, oh, and, sorry
Seth: ... yeah
David: ... and in so doing, create His kingdom, like create the, a, a small little pockets of the Garden of Eden where heaven and Earth-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... come together.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anyway, I just wanna finish that thought.
Seth: No, just, or think about the courage it takes to remain single, or the-
David: Oh, man. Yep
Seth: ... courage it takes to say no to my sexual desires-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and not sleep around, and instead have no sex-
David: Right
Seth: ... and remain faithful to God, and trust that His presence and the family that He creates within the Church is enough for me.
David: Yes.
Seth: That is ridiculously difficult.
David: Right. Imagine the courage and strength it takes to be radically generous with your money.
Seth: Yes.
David: To give it when it, when you don't have it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that takes courage.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Um, imagine the strength to tell the truth when you know it will get you into trouble. Like, you know, like, I mean, it just goes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... on and on and on.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like the, it's like the old riddle. It's like, um, is God limited? Or it's not a riddle. It's like a theological problem that Augustine talked about. Is God less powerful because He cannot tell a lie?
David: Oh.
Seth: It's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... well, what, well, he can't... Does that mean God can't do something? Well, God can't tell a lie. Does that make Him limited in His power? No, because it actually takes more power to never tell a lie-
David: Yes
Seth: ... than to be able to tell a lie.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, there is a, a strength of character, strength, like empowered strength by the Holy Spirit that it, that, that's necessary in order to obey His law. [gentle music] Okay, Joshua 2 opens up with a not a famous phrase, like, "Be strong and courageous"-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but a famous story, the story of Rahab the prostitute harboring spies.
David: Yes.
Seth: Such a-
David: Such a fun story.
Seth: It is a really, really fun story.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so let's just, let's just name why this is significant.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we already have in the back of our mind that we, that Joshua and Israel's army's about to just take over Canaan.
David: Yes.
Seth: They're about to, like, just destroy-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the enemies of God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So all sorts of, like, questions about genocide and violence that we're coming to, we promise, but it's really important for us to name upfront that what we're about to see is the first conquest that happens in the land of Canaan is not a military victory. It's a conquest of a Canaanite prostitute's heart and confessing, like, and it confesses devotion to Yahweh.
David: Yeah, it's a victory of grace.
Seth: It's a victory of grace-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that somebody who should not be a part of God's people-
David: Right
Seth: ... is accepted into God's people. And the implication is that anyone within the land of Canaan, that offer is available to them.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's the first story you hear as Israel enters the promised land, enters their promised land-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is that this Canaanite prostitute entered into God's people and was part of her. That signals to every other nation in Canaan that if they want, they can follow the prostitute's path and be a part of God's people.
David: Right. It is meant... And, and you'll, you guys will hear as we move on, we are not gonna try to temper the wrath of God or the conquest of Canaan and the rest-
Seth: The violence that, that's in here
David: ... we're not gonna do that. We're gonna try to treat the book like just-
Seth: The way that it's written
David: ... the way it is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we have to understand that the fact that this act of grace is at the front of Joshua before any conquest takes place, we are meant to see that the grace of God tempers His own wrath.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that the grace of God is greater, that the love of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... triumphs-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... over His wrath.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, that's what we see in, in the, in the, in the gospel.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, God's wrath isn't the final word.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's His grace.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it doesn't mean that God does not have wrath against sin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but that the, the invitation to repent and believe has been there from the beginning.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, like, it's just part of God's character-
Seth: It's exactly right
David: ... even in the conquest.
Seth: Even in the conquest.
David: So let's dive into this beautiful story.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, um, the first thing we need to notice is, oh, we have a repeat here of Numbers 13, uh, where, where-
Seth: When, when 12 spies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are sent into the land of Canaan and two come back with a good report. This time, two spies are sent into-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... the land of Canaan, and they both come back with a good report. [laughs]
David: We're doing this 12 thing again. 12 is just the, we're like, we're multiplying opportunities for failure.
Seth: We're just gonna send in two-
David: Let's get two guys we can trust. [laughs]
Seth: We got two, we got two s- good guys last time. Let's just send out two guys. And we'll be, we'll be fine.
David: This is really funny.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I wonder if, like, we're meant to see that.
Seth: Joshua was like, "Hey, me and Caleb did a good job last time."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Let's send up these two guys." [laughs]
David: That's really funny. And so they go and they spy out the land of Jericho, and they are harbored, taken in by the most unlikely of people, this woman who lives inside the city wall.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which is, like, cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, what a cool house.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's probably, like, horrible.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: It's probably the worst place to live.
Seth: Yeah. And, uh, well, it could also have been, I read a lot of, about-
David: Oh, okay. I did not
Seth: ... Jer- Jer- Jericho's architecture. She could have had, like, a room in the wall-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... as in like the wall was hollowed out, and she had, like, a stone room, or her house was on the outside of the city wall.
David: Oh.
Seth: So, like, you know, she would, like, there's all the markets would probably have been, like, little booths, little stalls, little hotels, and little, little, like, things-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... rested, like, rested against the wall of Jericho. And so her house was butted up against the wall of Jericho, and it's, since it's a brothel, it's probably, like, you know-
David: Go outside the city gates to get to that thing.
Seth: Yeah. Like, that's, that, it could be that, too. Unimportant to the story.
David: Yes.
Seth: All that you need to know is that her house is visible from the outside.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's probably not the most desirable place. She's obviously not the most desirable person either.
Seth: Right.
David: She's a prostitute.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and in terms of Israel, she's a Canaanite.
Seth: Yes.
David: So two strikes.
Seth: Two, two strikes, and because-
David: And a woman.
Seth: And a woman. Like, there's a lot-
David: For this time, that would not be the person to choo- You'd want a strong, uh, influential man.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that's who you would want if, if you were gonna-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... try to gain a military-
Seth: If you were a couple spies-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and you found a compatriot inside the walls of Jericho, you would hope it's, like, one of the king's officials-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who's, like, hiding you, like, [laughs] somewhere nice.
David: Yeah, and is gonna help you, like, poison the king's food or-
Seth: Yes
David: ... some espionage.
Seth: Yes.
David: Not some powerless prostitute. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So she, uh, so the spies go to her after hearing that the king knows about them, and she hides them. She also lies for them and then misdirects the king's guards out of the city, giving them a chance to escape on their own.
David: Yes.
Seth: So she's doing a lot of hard work for the Israelite army.
David: Yes, before any covenants are made or promises are made.
Seth: Yes. And then she gives kinda like the, her reasoning for doing all this-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in, um, verse 9. "And she said to the men, 'I know that the Lord has given you the land and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that the inhabitants of the land melt away before, before you, because we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea when you came out of Egypt, and how you defeated the king, kings of the Amorites, Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction.'" So I don't know how she heard about him, but Rahab had heard that God had parted the Red Sea. She'd heard the, the kings of the Amorites, Og and Sihon, had been defeated, and she was looking around at all her compatriots in Jericho, and they were all terrified.
David: Yes.
Seth: And while the king and his men and the rest of Jericho are preparing for battle, uh, Rahab is preparing her heart to worship the Lord-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to give herself up and surrender to the Lord's will. And, like, that's a really important distinction that happens. Like, they had heard about God's acts of salvation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And there was two responses in the, in the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in, in the camp of Jericho. One was to resist, double down, fight, and the other was to submit and surrender to the Lord.
David: That's right. Yep. And so she, uh, she chooses the latter and [laughs] repents and submits to the Lord, and she says, she makes her confession of faith.
Seth: Yep.
David: She says that, "Yahweh is the God of the heavens above and the earth beneath."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like-
Seth: She c- she believes that all of this land is God's land.
David: It's God's land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, so the, her territorial gods that the Canaanites are now trusting in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right? They're saying, like, "No, we're gonna double down, and we're gonna fight because our god is stronger than Yahweh."
Seth: Yep.
David: Right? Uh, Rahab says, "Nope, I reject our territorial gods-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and I claim Yahweh as my god."
Seth: And he's not just the god of the territory of Israel.
David: Oh, right. He's the god of all the heavens-
Seth: And all the earth
David: ... and all the earth.
Seth: It's, she, in, in a polytheistic culture that-
David: She is-
Seth: ... believed that every go-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... every city had its own god that protected it, she is professing faith in the one God of the entire world.
David: She is obeying the first commandment.
Seth: She's obeying the first commandment.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then she says this. She says, "Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that I, that as I have dealt kindly with you, you will also deal kindly with my father's house, and give me a sure sign that you will save me alive." So that word kindly-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is really important.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's the word hesed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's the word, uh, loyalty or covenant loyalty.
David: Covenant loyalty.
Seth: Covenant faithfulness, steadfast love.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And throughout scripture, hesed is particularly linked to God's relationship with his people. God shows his people loyalty by remaining true to his covenant despite their sinfulness. So what she's saying to the, these Israelite spies is, "I have shown you the covenant faithfulness towards you that God has shown to your forefathers."
David: Yes.
Seth: "Invite me in to your covenant."
David: Yep.
Seth: "Allow me to be a part of your covenant because of my faithfulness to your God."
David: Right.
Seth: She's wanting to become an Israelite.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's-
David: Show, show hesed to me as I have shown hesed to you because God has shown hesed to all of us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes, that's right. Uh, and they, so they agree. They say, "Absolutely, we will do this." And they make a gorgeous statement here which, uh, is, "Our life for yours, even to death." They're like, that's, that's like a swear on your life kind of, kind of language there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: It's also the gospel.
David: It's, uh, exactly right.
Seth: Your life-
David: That's why it's so beautiful. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] It's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... our life for yours.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. That, that we, we... Well, we'll get there. I don't wanna get there yet 'cause there, there's still... Uh, the other thing that's really interesting here is, uh, not only is hesed an important Hebrew word in kindly, we also have the first occurrence of the word harem ... in Joshua.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: In, uh, verse 10 of chapter two.
Seth: When she describes the destruction of the kings of Sihon-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and Og.
David: She said that they were devoted to destruction-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which is the word herem, which you'll see again and again throughout Joshua, and we'll talk about. But it's this idea that means devoted to destruction or, um, banned.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's the holy ban of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which whenever you hear God say, like, "Put everything to the sword," or, "Do not touch that type of the bounty," or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, "Completely destroy everything that breathes, men, women, and children," this is the herem commandments of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the first time we hear it, it's on the lips of a professing Canaanite, someone who is supposed to be under the ban-
Seth: Mm
David: ... under the des- destruction-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... under the herem. She recognizes that God is bringing herem-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is bringing destruction and wants to be safe from it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I just think that, like, if sh- if the first time we hear this word in Joshua is on her lips, like, every time we, we come to it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we should be tempered by it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's just interesting.
Seth: And so I think, too, you should think then, like, um, there's a whole bunch of things we could talk about with Rahab, like-
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the fact that she uses the word hesed. Um, Rahab is actually the mother of Boaz-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which, who marries Ruth, and hesed is one of the main words that y- like, it's used in connection with that book-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all, all times.
David: If you haven't listened to our Ruth podcast yet-
Seth: Go-
David: ... go back
Seth: ... uh, go back. Like, it's all about the hesed love of the Lord. So you have a Canaanite prostitute who fathers a son, or mothers a son, [laughs] who ends up, like, having a book written about his hesed love-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and his bride's hesed love for him.
David: Toward a foreigner.
Seth: Towards another foreigner.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's crazy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, there's, like, a connection there, and then also Jesus is one of Rahab's descendants.
David: Yes.
Seth: In Matthew 1:5, Rahab is mentioned at w- as one of the foremothers of Jesus. Because of Rahab's faithfulness to Israel, God is faithful to her and her family-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and provides salvation for all people through her line.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which goes again back to the fact that, like, there is salvation for all people in the land of Canaan through Rahab's faith-
David: Mm
Seth: ... through her family line. Like, it's, the same thing is happening. There's faith and salvation in Rahab's faith. [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's happening, and the d- on the devoted to destruction thing-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... we also can... In the same way that Israel, like, Israel's armies and Israel's victories and battles caused, like, um, the hearts of Jericho to melt within them-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... like, Jesus has not just defeated a powerful king over-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Og.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, he's defeated death.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, there is no enemy and no wall that can protect us from Jesus' power-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and herem.
David: I've never thought about Jesus' resurrection and defeat of death as a sign of his, like, terrible might.
Seth: Yes, and when we see Jesus defeating death like Israel defeated Og and Sihon, we could resist him-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like the kings of Jericho, or, like Rahab, we can allow our hearts to melt within us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and worship him.
David: Wow. Yes, that's good. [laughs] That's really intense. [laughs] Uh, yeah, it just makes me worship Jesus in a different way.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: As just powerful and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, unstoppable.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, like a mighty army heading toward our shore, and I know that he will have victory because he's beaten the biggest, baddest bully on the block.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's coming toward me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he also lets me-
Seth: Right. It's like-
David: ... join his team. [laughs]
Seth: It's like if, like, just, like, just take it, take the theological things out of it for a second and just imagine, like, okay, China comes to power, and she takes over Mexico and Canada-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and Great Britain, and she hasn't touched us yet, but she's just taking over the world. What are we going to be, what is every American citizen going to be doing in that moment? They're either gonna be preparing for war-
David: Right
Seth: ... or surrendering to China.
David: Yeah. [laughs] Right.
Seth: Like, those are your two options.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so when you see Israel doing that around the land of Canaan, it makes sense.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Those are your two options.
David: Those are your options.
Seth: And then when you see Jesus defeat sin and death, that should be the same visceral-
David: Yes
Seth: ... reaction we have. Jesus-
David: He's taking over the whole world.
Seth: He's taking over the whole world.
David: Yes.
Seth: Everything, every enemy that I thought that could be, would rule forever-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is being destroyed by this invading army.
David: I have two options.
Seth: Do I submit or do I fight?
David: Wow. That's really good. So there's another cool thing-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... that happens here. Um, so, uh, they go into detail about how they're going to go about protecting Rahab-
Seth: Yes
David: ... when they come into the city.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So there's this whole idea here that they're like, "Okay, here's what's gonna happen. We're gonna leave."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "We're gonna come back with all the armies, and we're gonna completely devote the city to destruction. But when we come back, you're gonna hang a scarlet thread, scarlet cord-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... out your window."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And when we see that, we'll let the whole army know that no one inside that house is supposed to be touched. So get your brothers and your sisters and your mom and your dad and your cousins, get them all up in that house, and as long as you're in that house with a scarlet cord on it, you're safe."
Seth: You're safe.
David: "If anyone steps outside that door, they're dead."
Seth: "We, uh, we, we won't know that they're a part of your family-"
David: That's right.
Seth: "... and we can't be responsible for that."
David: That's right. And so what, what... This is a new Passover. This is the Passover all over again.
Seth: Okay.
David: It's the same language, the same idea that-
Seth: The same language.
David: The same language from Exodus, uh, what is that? Uh, I'm l- losing it. 12? 11? Yeah, Exodus 11 and 12, where, um, they're told to paint their doors with red blood, a scar- the scarlet blood-
Seth: Mm
David: ... over their door.
Seth: Is it the same word, scarlet?
David: Oh, no. I, I... We could look.
Seth: Okay.
David: But I doubt the color of the blood is mentioned there.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But it's clearly the s- same idea here.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But what's important is is- Is if they stayed inside their house, they would be safe.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, yeah.
David: If they come out of their house, they are not safe.
Seth: Right.
David: But when they're inside the house with the sign of protection over them, they'll be passed over. In the same way, Rahab's house will be passed over, and they will not-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... incur the, the herem of God.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so it's this se- it's a new Passover happening-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but it's not for Israel this time.
Seth: Mm, mm.
David: Now there's a Passover happening in Canaan, showing us that just as Israel was a remnant inside the world-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that there's a remnant inside Canaan.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like inside the nations, inside the Gentiles, God is saving people. He's performing Passovers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... all over the world, in a sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, it's just this beautiful picture of, like, what happened to Israel will happen to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the nations.
Seth: That's really cool.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's really, really cool.
David: And so anyway, so that's, this is the place to make the turn, like, and see Jesus here really clearly is, like, this is what Jesus does for us. Like, He says, uh, "You have- I, I defeated death. I'm coming. I'm taking over the whole Earth," right?
Seth: Right.
David: Your, when your heart melts within you and you name Me as God of Heaven and Earth, I will protect you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: My life for your life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, if I don't protect you, my life for your life. And, like, we have proof of it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that He actually gave His life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, as a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and that is what is, is, like, written over us.
Seth: Yeah, his, like, his blood, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as long as we... So, like, as long as we stay in His home, in His temple, we will be safe.
David: Yeah.
Seth: As long as we are in His presence, we are safe.
David: Yeah.
Seth: As long as we are with Him, we will not be devoted to destruction.
David: That's right. Just being... And, like, and all it is, like, with, and it's like well, what does that mean, though? You know? Like, am I actually safe?
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause, like, there's a lot of, like, am I saved, how do I know I'm saved-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... questions that, and, like, that's just Satan wanting to attack you. He's the accuser.
Seth: Right.
David: He's wanting to condemn you. And, like, this is such a great story to answer that question, because, like, what did Rahab do?
Seth: [laughs]
David: All she did was name Yahweh as God of Heaven and Earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then she was saved. And all she had to do was stay inside, and it's like that's easy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, you know, in a sense. Like, that's easy. And it's like that's what God asks us to do, is, like, name Jesus as Lord and then rest in it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Stay in Jesus.
Seth: You don't have to, like, continually save new spies in order to feel like you're a true Israelite.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You can look at the scarlet cord-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and know that you're safe.
David: Right.
Seth: Stay, look to the cross of Jesus Christ, trust the scarlet cord, and you will be saved. There's nothing, like, as long as you place your hope in the scarlet cord, as long as you place your hope in the blood of Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the blood on the doorpost of the house, as long as you stay there, you will be safe.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's it.
David: That's really good. Um, as we wrap up-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this episode, um, it might, I, like I teased at, at the beginning, um, it might be interesting to talk about how have you heard this text preached?
Seth: [laughs] Well, there, so one way I've heard it preached is, like, this, people, like, like to use this text as a way to point to Jesus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... frequently enough.
David: Yes.
Seth: And they'll talk about, like, there's this scarlet thread throughout the, all of scripture.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, there's a scarlet thread beginning in Genesis 3:15, where God promises to crush the head of the serpent, and it ends in Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: And you see all these, like, little hints of it throughout. I'm like, that's a great point.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it's actually true.
David: Yes.
Seth: There is a thread through scripture leading to Jesus of the defeat of Satan and the fulfillment of all of God's promises. Fair enough. The scarlet thread is a fun little pickup from the Book of Joshua, but I don't think necessarily let's, it's meant to carry the entire weight of the biblical storyline.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, you don't have to call it the scarlet thread, like, in order to, like-
David: [laughs] Right
Seth: ... prove that there's a line going through scripture.
David: Yes. Um, yeah, I've heard it, like, uh, that, and, like, I think, I think what's, what happens is people use what, uh, what I like to call, like, the accidents of the text.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, or just like-
Seth: The color of the-
David: The, the color of the cord
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, um, to carry the weight of the gospel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: When actually it's like, oh, this is a repeat of the Passover, and, like-
Seth: Right, right, right, right
David: ... like, there's, there's, uh, a covenant being made with Rahab. There's hesed and herem doing battle with each other, and it's like it takes a little more work to get there.
Seth: It does take a little more work.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Rather than saying, like, the red blood of Jesus is what saves us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, it's true.
Seth: It is true.
David: But it, it, like, that's not how the text presents that truth to us.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's not because the score, the cord was scarlet, you know? Like-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... that's an accident of the text.
Seth: Yeah, so what we're saying is, as you continue in your own journey of, like, seeing Jesus in all of scripture, like, don't be so concerned with some of, like, the positional details-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the fact that there was a red rope, or the fact that-
David: Now, like, if it fits the whole story-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I, I probably, uh, accident of the text is more of a theological word.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's gonna get misread. It's a detail.
Seth: It's a detail.
David: Detail of the text is what, I don't mean that something was accidentally in there-
Seth: Right
David: ... that it wasn't on purpose. That it's not important.
Seth: Right.
David: I don't mean any of that.
Seth: Well-
David: So I just want, we're gonna get nasty comments-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... if I don't make that, make that clarification. Detail to the text. And, like, a detail of the text might fit the larger context.
Seth: Right, but we don't have any real, like, connection between the blood on the Passover-
David: Right
Seth: ... uh, uh, or the doorposts of, of Israel in, in E- in Egypt. [laughs] Why can't I say the word Egypt?
David: [laughs]
Seth: Doorposts of Israel and Egypt, uh, to the, the color of the string here or to the color of Jesus' blood. But what we do have is death passing over people-
David: Yeah, that's, that's what's most important
Seth: ... by the, a symbolic representation of the blood.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, a symbolic representation of salvation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A sacrifice.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah, like, that's, that's what's happening.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah. And so I just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's one of those, it's one of those texts that it's really easy to feel like you're doing a Jesus turn or a gospel turn-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and be like, "Oh, I can see Jesus. He's the scarlet thread."
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is.
Seth: He is.
David: He is. But, like, root that in the whole story.
Seth: Yes.
David: Do the work-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to, like, know why he's the scarlet thread-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if you will. Um, you know, why is Jesus the blood on the doorpost, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, like, what-
Seth: How does the, how does his blood work, and what is it protecting us from?
David: Right.
Seth: And what's it leading to?
David: Yes. You miss all that if you don't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... do the work of the text. And I think, like, um, and so I've just seen that happen, and I, I think- I think because we get to the same place-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... people understand, don't understand why, especially I, get offended when, uh, preaching-
Seth: You get offended, David?
David: I, I, yeah, I do. It's, it, you never see it.
Seth: Yeah, I never-
David: You never see me get offended
Seth: ... I never see David offended.
David: Uh, [laughs] but, uh, and I think it's because you're missing the, you're missing all the work behind it, and you're missing the full story. Like-
Seth: Yeah, it's like a-
David: ... which is what provides grounding.
Seth: Yeah, it's like, it's a shortcut to see Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Red cord, red blood.
David: Red blood.
Seth: Easy. Man, there is better news the deeper you look.
David: There we go.
Seth: There's be-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like, and so, like, and I would say, say that for every text. There's always better news the deeper-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you look. And so what we're really fighting for is just, like, look deeper and see more good news.
David: Yes. Yeah, I think the other thing I'm fighting for is, um, let the point of the text be the point of the gospel you're trying to get to.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Is like, is the point of the text the color of the cord? No.
Seth: Right.
David: It concertedly is not.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Could the color of the cord be important or significant? Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: I will definitely concede that.
Seth: Not here, but somewhere else, maybe.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, and it's like, but like-
Seth: Like, uh-
David: ... is it the point of the passage? No.
Seth: Like, the purple robes.
David: This is what I was, this is what, that's exactly what I was thinking of-
Seth: Right
David: ... when I was thinking of why details could be important.
Seth: Like, so the purple robes that are draped on Jesus are a sign of royalty.
David: That's right.
Seth: Per-
David: The pomegranates being etched into the tabernacle's cloth are important.
Seth: Yes.
David: They remind us of the garden.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: So, like, there are details that are important, and like, I'm fine even saying that, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the scarlet thread is red blood. I'm-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'd actually be okay with that.
Seth: Right.
David: It's when you take the shortcut and you miss the why, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you focus on that.
Seth: Yeah, just dig deeper-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and there's better news there.
David: There is. Okay, there, there's my soapbox that I just-
Seth: There's your soapbox
David: ... I just wanted to have for just a second.
Seth: Well, excellent. So next week we'll be in, uh, Joshua three to five, and we'll-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kind of talk about how Joshua, and this, it's more detailed than we did in the introduction-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is the new Moses.
David: Yes.
Seth: And how his crossing of the Jordan is like the crossing of the Red Sea.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then we'll get into some of the conquest after that.
David: It'll be really cool. So we hope to see you guys there. Thank you for listening and joining us, and we will see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
