Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how are you this fine morning?
Seth: I'm ready to tell you the, the story about how the Gibeonite deception is related to my first date.
David: Oh.
Seth: Do you remember this?
David: No.
Seth: In our introductory episode, I was gonna talk about how Joshua 9 and the Gibeonite deception played a role in my first date.
David: Oh.
Seth: And so now I get to tell you-
David: Did you-
Seth: ... and the world
David: ... did you leave a cliffhanger on-
Seth: I did leave a cliffhanger.
David: Oh, man, I'm a bad rememberer.
Seth: Yeah, so I, uh, as... It was, I think it was, like, my first winter, like, formal or something like that.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, uh-
David: Is this in another country?
Seth: It's in another country. It's in Scotland.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Did you not have winter formals here?
David: No, we did. We did. I just wanted to-
Seth: Uh, I forget what it was called
David: ... I always wanna make you feel like an outsider
Seth: ... it was a ceilidh, if you know what a ceilidh is.
David: I do not know what that is.
Seth: It's, a ceilidh is a Scottish country dance.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so it's kind of like line dancing except more like ballroom-y. And, like, if you've seen, like, um, some of the dances on, like, Pride and Prejudice or stuff like that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... those are, like, those big group dances where, like, dozens of dozens of people-
David: Oh
Seth: ... are doing it.
David: Yes.
Seth: So that's a ceilidh.
David: Oh.
Seth: Um, and so-
David: I always thought that was a High School Musical.
Seth: Uh [laughs] In, in America it's a High School Musical.
David: Oh, oh, okay. All right.
Seth: So anyway, we were doing... It was a ceilidh, and I was like, I was, wanted to ask this girl. Uh, and her name was Lauren, and I wa-
David: Lauren
Seth: ... and I was really nervous.
David: Was she Scottish?
Seth: She was Scottish.
David: Yeah.
Seth: She was redheaded. Uh, and she, I... And I asked her, and she said yes. And then I immediately felt crushing guilt.
David: Why?
Seth: Because, um, I had unequally yoked myself with a non-believer. [laughs]
David: Oh my goodness. [laughs]
Seth: And my parents were not [laughs] my parents were not pleased that I had asked a non-Christian girl to the dance. Um-
David: Okay. Hold on, hold on.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Hold on. Because I'm [laughs] some of you might think I'm disproportionately responding with laughter. If you knew th- the younger Seth that I've been told stories of-
Seth: Oh
David: ... from p- present-day Seth-
Seth: From present-
David: ... about the crushing guilt, religious guilt-
Seth: Oh, yes
David: ... that you grew up with-
Seth: Oh, yes
David: ... this is just another brick-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... in the beautiful story. Okay, continue.
Seth: Uh, so I-
David: Your parents weren't happy about-
Seth: My parents were not happy about that
David: ... your unequal yoking.
Seth: But I was also, like, conflicted because, like, well, I wasn't dating her. It was just a dance. And, but also the Gibeonite deception.
David: What?
Seth: Well, because they weren't supposed to make a covenant. They weren't supposed to make a deal with this pagan nation.
David: Okay.
Seth: But because they didn't ask the Lord, there's all these bad consequences from it.
David: Oh.
Seth: They're, like, implicated in their battles. They have to go to war for them.
David: Oh.
Seth: It's messy-
David: Oh
Seth: ... because of the fact that they did not ask the Lord for counsel.
David: Did you bring up the Gibeonite deception or did your parents?
Seth: I don't remember which [laughs]
David: Because if you knew what the Gibeonite deception was, I'm just like, "You are a different-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... you're cut from a different cloth than I am." Um-
Seth: I think it, uh, I don't remember which way the conversation flowed, but I think at the end of the day, the Gibeonite was, deception was supposed to be an encouragement to me as well-
David: Hm
Seth: ... because they made a covenant when they weren't supposed to, but it worked out in the end.
David: Yes. I think the segue here is-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the story that your guilt told you about the Gibeonite deception is not the right story.
Seth: Yes, it was deceptive, you might say.
David: Ooh, you, you might.
Seth: You might say. [laughs]
David: So if you have no idea what we're talking about, we're in Joshua 9.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Uh, we're in Joshua 9. We've just finished, um, the Battle of Jericho, the two battles of Ai, one failed-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... one succeeded based on Israel's obedience to the Lord. And now, news of Israel's conquest of the land of Canaan and their mighty God is starting to spread like wildfire around this s, around this, uh, country.
Seth: Yep.
David: And more and more people are getting afraid of this army because they are just winning huge battles and-
Seth: Yeah, Ai was a massive city.
David: Yes.
Seth: It was probably the, the stronghold. It's described in chapter nine as the, or chapter 10 as this just, like, the royal destination-
David: Oh, I, yeah-
Seth: ... of, uh, Canaan
David: ... and I know, I know, and yeah. And I, I know, yeah, I know Gibeon was also described that way later in chapter 10.
Seth: That, well, um-
David: But yes
Seth: ... oh, that's right. Sorry.
David: Yes, Gibeon.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's Gibeon. Sorry, not Ai.
David: But yes-
Seth: Yes
David: ... it was still a big city, and the way they defeated them was just so massive that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the kings of all the different cities in Canaan are starting to shake-
Seth: Right
David: ... in their boots.
Seth: And which is what Rahab foreshadowed when she said, "The hearts of the people melt within them."
David: That's right.
Seth: However, what's interesting about that phrase is the heart of Rahab melted within her, and it led her to repent.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It led her to put her trust in Yahweh, while the kings of Jericho and the king of Ai, um, it hardened their heart to fight Israel. And so what we're having here is a replay of that same phenomenon.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So it says in verse nine, verse two, "They gathered together as one to fight against Joshua and Israel."
David: Right.
Seth: So their hearts are melting within them. They're concerned about the rising military threat of Israel, and they're taking that melting heart and, like, uh, hardening it, callousing it into aggre-
David: Aggression
Seth: ... military aggression against them.
David: That's right.
Seth: And if you fast-forward to chapter 10, uh, we get God's, uh, own, um... Actually, I think it's chapter 11, but if you fast-forward to chapter 11, verse 20, it says the reason all this is happening, it's, it, it's God's interpretive, uh, ex-... comments-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... on what's happening.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, 4: It was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in order that they should be devoted to destruction and receive no mercy, but be destroyed, just as the L- the Lord commanded-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Moses. So that interpretive framework not only repeats the things we're seeing already, it's setting up categories between people who will bow the knee before Yahweh-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and people who fight Yahweh.
David: Right.
Seth: But it's also giving us new categories of, like, i- uh, Egypt. Like, just as God commanded Moses, there's a hardening of a heart happening.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Things are happening.
David: Yep.
Seth: Things are happening.
David: Absolutely. And so what's interesting about this story is as news of Israel's conquest spreads around Canaan, this story gives us two responses.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The kings, um, band together to fight against, um, Israel, but one of the royal cities, one of the biggest cities there, there are, Gibeon-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the city of Gibeon, decides that they're not gonna fight. Instead, they are going to engage in a, in a, in, like, some misdirection and some deception, and try to make a covenant with Israel through, um, trickery-
Seth: Yep
David: ... basically.
Seth: And what's interesting-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about the co- so, like, yeah, so they, they're doing a, gonna try to enter into a covenant through deception.
David: Yep.
Seth: And what's interesting, just the idea of the covenant, normally a covenant was made when a, between a weaker nation and a stronger nation.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so the d- the fact that the royal city of Gibeon is coming to Israel asking to make a covenant with them and to protect them against others is assuming that Israel's the most powerful nation-
David: That's right
Seth: ... there. It's like, it's a, it's a, it's an admission-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that God is on their side, and that he's the biggest g- he's the biggest dog-
David: That's right, yeah
Seth: ... in town.
David: They are, they are taking the vassal side of the su-
Seth: Suzerain
David: ... of the suzerain-
Seth: Yeah, yeah [laughs]
David: ... vassal treaty. Yeah. Um, that's right. And so, ah, they, they decide to come, and they... I mean, it's pretty brilliant.
Seth: It is. They dec- they, yeah, it's brilliant because they knew, apparently, Israel's laws well enough to know that God had commanded Israel back in the Book of Deuteronomy to make no treaties-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... with the people inside Canaan. But if they were far away, uh, in like, to the north or to the south of the kingdom, they could make treaties with those nations.
David: That's right, yep. They, I think the, in th- their own words were like, "We know that God has given you this land."
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. And so-
Seth: They seem to know that-
David: Yep
Seth: ... God has, has made a covenant with Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... for this land, yeah.
David: So they're, like, acknowledging the power of y- o- of, of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They are acknowledging the plans of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they are submitting to them-
Seth: Yep
David: ... by, by, like, by saying like, "They're gonna happen."
Seth: They're gonna happen.
David: They're having faith in God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that what He said will come true, that His plans will prevail, that He is stronger than all of Canaan.
Seth: And so they try to get out from God's harem by pretending they're from one of those far northern nations.
David: Right.
Seth: And so they bring, they pack a whole bunch of moldy bread into their sacks. They wear worn out clothes. They make their donkeys look tired. Like, I don't exactly know how-
David: Yep
Seth: ... they sold the deception, but they send this, this emissary-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to Joshua, who, and they ask to make a covenant with him saying, "We're from far away. Please make a covenant with us. We see what, what's happening here." So Joshua knows that they're from far away. This is, this is kosher.
David: Yep.
Seth: But he also like, "Well, how do we know you're really-
David: Right
Seth: ... you're really"
David: And they point to all their false-
Seth: Their
David: ... worn out sacks and sandals-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and moldy bread and say, "If we were f- from just, like, the next town over, wouldn't all our stuff be normal?" They're like, "Look, look at this bread. It was hot when we took it out of the oven, and now it's cold-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and crumbly and moldy."
Seth: Yep.
David: Yep. "It's o- uh, the, the wine skins that we packed were brand new whenever-
Seth: Right
David: ... we set on our journey, and now look, they've all burst."
Seth: It's a pretty, it feels really easy to see through.
David: Oh.
Seth: You know? It's like-
David: Sure
Seth: ... uh, but what we're told is in, uh, verse 15 that, well, Joshua buys it. Joshua-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... makes peace with them and makes a f- covenant with them to let them live, and the leaders of, uh, as the leaders of Israel, kind of just swore to them. But they didn't seek God's counsel. Um-
David: Right
Seth: ... verse 14: But they did not ask counsel from the Lord.
David: Right. So it's, it's gonna be really interesting to play out here because two things are happening. We are, we are seeing the faith of the Gibeonites.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But-
Seth: Especially when-
David: Yep
Seth: ... contrasted with the hardening of the hearts-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... of everybody else.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Nobody else is trying to make a covenant with, with, with, uh, Israel, only the Gibeonites.
David: Yep. So we're seeing the faith of the Gibeonites, but we're seeing the faithlessness of Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And what we can't allow to happen is for the faithlessness of Israel to taint this whole story.
Seth: Right. Because normally the way we read it, because Israel didn't listen, uh-
David: God didn't want the Gibeonites
Seth: ... God didn't want the Gibeonites. And so if they would have asked God for counsel-
David: He would've said, "Nope, kill them."
Seth: Nope, kill them. But the text never says that.
David: No.
Seth: Which is fascinating.
David: And we're gonna see in the next story the opposite of this is true.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so-
Seth: And this, I mean, this is-
David: Yep
Seth: ... we should just, like, push into this a little bit 'cause this is the way I read the Gibeonite story-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... growing up. I think it's the way most people read the Gibeonites. The Gibeonites were, uh-
David: Liars
Seth: ... liars.
David: And they, and they were supposed to be conquested.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Israel disobeyed by not destroying them.
David: Right.
Seth: Israel diso- didn't listen to the voice of the Lord, therefore, if they wouldn't have made this mistake, Israel's, um, life would've been better in the land of Canaan. Maybe the Book of Judges wouldn't happen.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that's kind of, like, the im- the implication. But I don't think that's the way we're supposed to read the story for a few different reasons that we've already mentioned. One, I think they're showing a legitimate kind of faith. They're more like Rahab than they are like the hard-hearted kings making-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a coalition against them.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: And I also think it's fascinating, uh, and then later on in the narrative, they're included in the land allotments of Israel. They're actually given land in Israel as if they're Israelites.
David: That's right.
Seth: God includes them in the nation of Israel.But even before we got to the land allotment section, think about the way the nation of Israel was formed-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... between Jacob and Esau.
David: Yes. It was formed through deception.
Seth: Formed through deception. Jacob, who was named, later named Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... stole the birthright from Esau. How? By dressing himself up, by somebody else, and presenting food-
David: And l- yeah.
Seth: And lying.
David: And lying.
Seth: And lying.
David: "I'm Esau."
Seth: And he, and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like, "I'm Esau." And he's like, "Oh, I'm from far away." Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the way the Gibeonites enter into covenant with Israel and with God is actually the same way that Jacob entered into covenant with, uh, uh, became God's chosen people in the first place.
David: So in that, in that story-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Israel is Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Israel is Jacob [laughs].
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: To say it more clearly.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or, no, sorry, Israel is Isaac.
Seth: Isr-
David: My bad.
Seth: Yes. Yeah.
David: Israel is Isaac, Jacob's dad. And, um, Isaac in that story, uh, w- de- wanted to wrongfully bless Esau-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... his firstborn, instead of Jacob, whom God told him to bless.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so that, if we have that story in our head, we know that the deceiver Jacob is in the right because God wanted to bless him.
Seth: Yes.
David: But Isaac, the father, would have withheld the blessing had he not been tricked.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so what's interesting here is if we have that story in our head, we should actually assume that God wanted to bless the Gibeonites.
Seth: Yes.
David: And if he, if, if they hadn't been tricked, Israel would've disobeyed God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and murdered them.
Seth: Right. They would've been, there would've been another episode somewhere like Rahab-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where they come and confess their fealty to Yahweh and their willingness to bow and submit to s- submit to the God of Israel.
David: Yep.
Seth: Which would be fascinating-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to play out. And that's not the only story we have in the Old Testament where deception, lying, and costumes are used to secure the Messianic line.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Or, uh, the story of Tamar and Judah.
David: Oh.
Seth: Uh-
David: Right. Yes
Seth: ... um, where, so Judah was supposed to provide Tamar with one of his sons-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so that the Messianic line could continue through Tamar-
David: Right
Seth: ... who was rightfully owed.
David: But Judah wouldn't do it.
Seth: But Judah wouldn't do it over and over and over again.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: Tamar dresses up as a prostitute.
Seth: Tamar dresses up like... [laughs] So it's a crazy story.
David: It's a crazy story.
Seth: Tamar dresses up as a prostitute.
David: Lies to Judah.
Seth: Lies to Judah.
David: And lies with Judah [laughs].
Seth: Lies with Judah. And then she gets pregnant, and with the, the next generation-
David: Of the Messianic line
Seth: ... of the Messianic line. And then when she confronts Judah with this, she, we're told that J- Judah says that she was in the right. She-
David: Yeah, he, he says, "You are more righteous than I am."
Seth: Yes.
David: Even though she was the deceiver.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then in the Book of Hebrews 11, she's mentioned among the people of faith.
David: Yep.
Seth: So there is a biblical narrative-
David: Of faith through deception
Seth: ... faith through deception, and I think that's what's happening here in Joshua.
David: I completely agree.
Seth: I-
David: I completely agree.
Seth: I think Gibeon is entering into the covenant with God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... securing themselves within the, God's covenant community through deception.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is [laughs] was crazy. Yeah.
David: It is. It is crazy. Um-
Seth: So does that mean I can lie my way into k- the Kingdom of God?
David: No.
Seth: Oh, well.
David: But what's all this been for then?
Seth: Yes.
David: But yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: So it's interesting. So, um, v- at the end of the day, uh, [laughs] you could f- you could frame the gospel like deception.
Seth: Okay.
David: I mean, think about what Satan thought he was doing to Jesus on the cross.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Jesus deceived Satan-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... by thinking that he was going to kill him.
Seth: Right.
David: And instead, like, brought about a blessing for the whole world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, like, Jesus-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... tricked Satan.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, Jesus tricked death. Jesus tricked and deceived the religious leaders-
Seth: Mm
David: ... through death.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, he never lied to them.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? He never actually deceived them, but he used the categories of death, like, against itself.
Seth: The thing that seem... Like, I mean, death seems like a self-evident truth.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? It's like, no, what's more true than death?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh-
David: If we kill him, he will be gone.
Seth: He will be gone. But Jesus uses truth as a means of deception-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and then rises out of the grave. So that's-
David: Yes, that's exactly right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's exactly right. And in a sense, like, this, I don't want anybody to think this is like... I'm just trying to, like, live in this imaginative universe for a second-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... where it's like, in a sense, like, we are, like, we come to God with Jesus's provisions, you know? And we're like-
Seth: Right
David: ... we're like, "This, uh, we, we, we, we're righteous." Like, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Well, and if you think about it, like, we are dressed in the righteous robes of Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: We're given Jesus's righteous robes.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so why are we accepted in God's kingdom?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Not because we come with our own robes-
David: Right
Seth: ... but because we're dressed in the robes of another-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the same way that these people come dressed in the robes of a faraway kingdom.
David: That's right.
Seth: We're dressed in a k- fr- in robes from a kingdom not our own.
David: Yep.
Seth: And we're accepted into God's covenant by the, because [laughs] we're dressed up by God in His righteousness.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's not deception.
David: No.
Seth: It's planned. It's known. But it's also, this is not who we would have been-
David: No
Seth: ... on our own.
David: We would've been harimmed.
Seth: We would've been harimmed.
David: We would've been destroyed, and instead we put on the clothes of the ultimate truthful deceiver-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the faithful deceiver from a faraway kingdom, put on our clothes, and now we can approach the God of the covenant and be accepted and brought into, into His family. It's interesting.
Seth: It's super interesting.
David: So, uh, real quickly, as we, as we kind of, uh, tie some of that up, uh, this, this, uh, this chapter, chapter 9 and the beginning of 10, form a chiasm, which is a ancient Hebrew literary structure that repeats itself, basically.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it forms an X. And at the center of the X, uh, is the story of, um, J-The Gibeonites' confession of faith.
Seth: So what's on either side of the X? Like, what you have.
David: So you have on the, on the far extremes, uh, the bookends-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the chiasm are, are the description of, of the kings, and it's even the same language.
Seth: Oh. Verse nine... Chapter nine, verse one u- one through two, and then chapter 10-
David: Yep
Seth: ... verses one through two.
David: "As soon as all the kings who were-"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: "... beyond the Jordan in the hill country," and then you hear about them, and then you hear it again, "As soon as Adonizezek, king of Jerusalem, heard." So it's like you have these kings, as soon as the kings heard, they did something. And then as soon as the king heard, they did something. It's a, it's a bookend.
Seth: Yeah, and it... Yeah.
David: And so that triggers you, if you were a Hebrew reader, to be like, "Oh, I just saw a repeat. Let me go back and see what, if there's a pattern." And there is, because, uh, in the first part of nine, you hear about the worn-out sacks and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... all the ways-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the Gibeonites deceived. And then at the, uh, toward the end of that chapter, they are repeating it again to Joshua as the just, uh-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... after Joshua realizes that they-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... were from, not from a faraway kingdom, but right next door.
Seth: They're, they're explaining the deception.
David: They're explaining the deception.
Seth: Okay.
David: So, and then the center of the story is their confession of faith and the covenant made with them.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so it's just like, yeah, it's fun to talk about the, the deception and the means.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the, the heart of the story is confessing faith in Yahweh.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and just bel- and like trusting that God's will and power will be executed is, like, the heart of what we're supposed to take out of this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is it's like, man, let, let the fear of the Lord melt your heart and lead you to bow the knee-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and come into His family by any means necessary. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, it's not like it... We talked about it a, a while ago. Like, God does not take delight in haraming anyone. God does not take delight in the destruction of wickedness, like, which we would like take great relish when a murderer is finally given his due and sentenced to life in prison. Like, like that's the way I would feel, you know-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but God does not take delight in that.
David: Right.
Seth: He desires for people to come into His covenant.
David: Yes.
Seth: And if you are willing to bow the knee-
David: Yep
Seth: ... He's willing to accept you.
David: With, with the Gibeonites, you could see God in heaven watching the Gibeonites a few towns over, preparing their sacks and wearing out their sandals and putting on discolored jackets and, like, getting ready for this lie.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you could just see God excited to welcome them in.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, "Oh, I'm so glad they're doing this," you know? Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... you can just see Him excited 'cause He's like, "I, I don't have to punish them because they're going to, like, repent and they're gonna bow the knee."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just awesome. Like-
Seth: It's really awesome.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's a couple other details I wanna point out in the story.
David: Okay, great.
Seth: So one in verse four, uh, it uses the word, "They on their part acted with cunning-"
David: Yes
Seth: "... in what made ready provisions and took wo- worn-out sacks." So that word cunning's super interesting-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because it's used ki- It's, it's an ambiguous word.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's used in Proverbs, I mean.
David: It's a, it's a morally ambiguous word.
Seth: It's a morally ambiguous word. It's like, it's used in Proverbs like, "Get wisdom, and by all means, get understanding. Get cunning-
David: Cunning
Seth: ... and with all, with all cunning, get understanding."
David: That's right. But it's also used-
Seth: In, uh, Exodus for premeditated murder.
David: Oh.
Seth: Oh. So it's like, it's like this idea of, like, you, they're plotting something.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: So that word itself, like, if you were a Hebrew reader, you would've been like, "Oh, that's a, a interesting word."
David: Yes. Is it, is it also the same cunning used of the snake?
Seth: It's not.
David: Okay.
Seth: I tried to... I looked that up.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's not the same, uh-
David: Gotcha
Seth: ... uh, use of the snake. But I did also wanna point out, so one, that's another clue to, I think, our reading of the Gibeonite story is correct. But also, um, oh, I forget. I totally forgot what I was gonna say.
David: You spaced.
Seth: Oh, oh, oh.
David: Nope.
Seth: I know. So Joshua had every right to cancel the covenant-
David: Why? Why?
Seth: ... with Gibeon. Like, when a suzerain vassal treaty is set up-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... on the basis of deception, like, you don't have the r- you don't need to keep the covenant. You're like, you actually would be expected as a leader within Canaan to have, if you had a vassal come up to you, then you tur- turns out they're just deceiving you the whole time, you have the right-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to abolish the covenant and say, "We're not gonna make a deal with people who are liars." That would've been with Jo- within Joshua's right.
David: Interesting.
Seth: But over and over again, the reason they say they cannot do that is because they have sworn by God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they say it multiple different times. So-
David: He also says like, "We can't break this covenant unless we incur the wrath of the Lord."
Seth: Yes. So I think it's fascinating that, like, Joshua, even though he's not technically under a legal obligation to these people, under the culture-
David: Oh, sure
Seth: ... of the suzerain or vassal treaties.
David: Yep.
Seth: But their word to God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is more important than the people's deception.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So it's like the fact-
David: Because it's a rep- it, because it's a repetition of... Because God's covenant is unbreakable.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's not, it's not Joshua extending a covenant to them. He's extending to them God's covenant of inclusion.
Seth: Yes.
David: And God's covenant is unbreakable.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so the reason he can't break the covenant is because if he went back and haramed those-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who've been brought back into the covenant, he himself would be haramed.
Seth: Yes. That's exactly right.
David: Interesting.
Seth: And I also think it just highlights, too, the unique nature of what's happening in the Book of Joshua. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... we keep saying it's not genocide, but, like, we're the people... Anybody who's willing to make a treaty can become part of God's people and be part of the fulfillment of the command to Abraham-
David: Right
Seth: ... where all nations of the world are blessed. And that blessing the world is more important than the dishonor, shame, and deception of the Gibeonites.
David: Yes, it is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It overshadows it.
Seth: It oversha-
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, is it, which is the same thing within the, uh, Isaac and Jacob narrative.
David: That's right.
Seth: Same thing within, and even, like, more explicitly in the Tamar and Judah narrative.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the prostitution, how does that get overridden?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, they're not married.
David: 'Cause faith is more important.
Seth: Like, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's, th- there's, there's something more important-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... than the deception, and it's God's covenant to His people.
David: That's right. Uh, last thing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... about this story is there are accounts like thisIn ancient Near East-
Seth: Okay
David: ... literature that there are other-
Seth: Like
David: ... stories um, of, of like people who were about to, uh, be conquered by an, a encroaching army-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, offering to bring those people in as slaves and save them from destruction as a way to show both the power and mercy of the king.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so like-
Seth: Like
David: ... this is like a, a cultural thing-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that would be done. Um, but what's interesting is, like, one, Israel has to be deceived into doing it.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, yeah.
David: And so Joshua and Israel aren't seen as the gracious ones, their god is-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because they are kind of sidestepped.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so Yahweh is the one who is seen as kind and powerful.
Seth: Mm.
David: That's just-
Seth: Right
David: ... interesting.
Seth: That is super interesting.
David: Uh, but what's, what's even more interesting is how that narrative is about to be subverted in chapter 10.
Seth: Okay.
David: And I'll leave it there for this short little musical break. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] [gentle music] So you left us on a excellent cliffhanger.
David: How long have ev- ha- have all of you been waiting?
Seth: Um, mere-
David: About eight seconds?
Seth: [laughs] Mere seconds.
David: How long is that music? [laughs]
Seth: Um, so you said this is the beginning or the end of the chiasm in the beginning where-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... we had the coalition of the enemy armies coming against Israel, and in this particular case, they're not coming against Israel, they're coming against Gibeon.
David: Yes.
Seth: Because Gibeon is-
David: Yes
Seth: ... this great kingdom, the royal city within the territory of the Hivites.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they're terrified of what this means for them.
David: Right. And it, it's interesting their impetus for, for wanting to destroy Gibeah, or Gibeon instead-
Seth: Gibeon. Yeah
David: ... of Israel-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because it's like I wonder if they're ashamed-
Seth: Mm
David: ... 'cause it's like they... Everyone's afraid of God and Israel, but Gibeon acted the way they should have, the kings should have. And so like, "Let's go punish them for that."
Seth: Right.
David: Like, "They're a bunch of cowards. Let's go get them."
Seth: Mm.
David: And so they go to attack Gibeon. Gibeon, they call out to Joshua, and they say, "Come to our aid and save us."
Seth: Okay.
David: That's a very important word.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, and it's, it's, it's also, um, mentioned in chapter nine as well, and I think it's the only time that Joshua's, the meaning of Joshua's name is used.
Seth: Oh, 'cause sh- Joshua means-
David: The Lord saves
Seth: ... the Lord saves.
David: Yes. And so this is the only time, at least the commentary I read this morning, uh, said that [laughs]-
Seth: The most recent commentary I looked at [laughs]
David: ... the most recent commentary, the most recent commentary I looked at said this is the only time that Joshua's n- the meaning-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of Joshua's name is brought into action.
Seth: Oh.
David: And it's salvific. It's sa- it's saving. He brings salvation to Gibe- to Gibeon because Gibeon was their vassal now.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, they're servants, and they were coming and being attacked. This does not have parallels in the ancient Near Eastern literature like the, y- you know, saving the servants-
Seth: Right
David: ... would.
Seth: Because normally it's like the c- the, the stronger nation goes into battle and says, "You guys over there, you promised me your men. Send me your men."
David: That's right.
Seth: Right.
David: "You come fight for us."
Seth: Mm.
David: But instead, the king and the conqueror and the leader comes and fights on behalf of the slave.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so we're, we're shown here in stark contrast between the other leaders and gods of the ancient Near East that God, Israel's god, is a god who doesn't just conquer, but he fights for his slaves.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, that is the gospel. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: It's so beautiful. Uh, anyway.
Seth: And I love, like, even, like, all throughout the Psalms, you have this, like, repeated line, "For your name's sake, O Lord-
David: Yes
Seth: ... come and save us."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And so it's like, Joshua, Joshua us. Like, like-
David: Oh
Seth: ... your name is Yeshua, well Yeshua us right now.
David: Yes. Save us.
Seth: You, you must save us. We must be sa- be true to your name-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and do that.
David: Yes.
Seth: Wow.
David: Yeah. And so, I mean, to draw-
Seth: So
David: ... a really straight line-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I mean, Jesus, like, we are the slaves of God. Like, we, you know, w- we are less than that.
Seth: We're-
David: We are the ones who are gonna be conquered.
Seth: Y- yeah, without i- even in Christ, we're called bond servants to Christ-
David: Yes
Seth: ... because we've been saved by a great price.
David: Right.
Seth: But even before that, we are-
David: Haremmed
Seth: ... haremmed-
David: Yes
Seth: ... under the harem, yeah.
David: Yeah, and Jesus undoes the harem, makes us his slaves, and he comes and fights for his slaves. He comes, and we have death, enemies, war coming and knocking at our doors. We have no way to save ourselves, and so we call out to a king who does not have to come, and yet he comes and puts h- his life on the line to save those who don't deserve it. And it's like v- and, like, it's just also just amazing, too, narratively, the, just the way the story flows, how quickly physical salvation comes for those who put their trust in Israel's God. Like, Gibeon would've been haremmed-
Seth: Right. Yeah
David: ... would've been destroyed. They were-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... three towns over. They w- their death was imminent.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet they come, they put their faith in God, and the next story we hear is they are being haremmed by an enemy nation, and God comes and saves them. Their new king comes to their, to, to victory. The next story.
Seth: That's, yeah.
David: It's just amazing to see how quickly God saves.
Seth: Right.
David: Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... how fast he is to be-
Seth: And I pic-
David: ... compassionate.
Seth: And I, even, like, uh... Yes.
David: It's just, I just think about, like-
Seth: It's amazing
David: ... I think about young Christians. I think about new Christians. I, you know, I think about people-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who just put their faith in God, and I'm just like, "Well, I'm just too... I, I don't know. I just made one confession of faith. You know, I just walked the aisle. I just was baptized."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I just invited-
Seth: Right
David: ... God in my heart," whatever, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... the, the background you were in whenever you made that, that step to become a Christian. And you're like, "I don't know. I probably just don't deserve God's salvation yet, or I haven't been in it long enough for him to really come to my aid. Or if I die tomorrow, I don't know. Have I proven myself?" Or-
Seth: Right
David: ... there's all these lies you probably talk to yourself, like, about. But, like, look how quickly God saves those who were outside his people, who were his enemy, who are u- under his curse. They make a confession. They bow the knee, and the next story we hear-God comes in mighty salvation
Seth: Mm
David: and puts His own people on the line-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to save them.
Seth: That's so good.
David: Like, how quickly are you made sons, you who were slaves?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I just think it's so cool.
Seth: It's, it's amazing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I, I keep thinking about the Gibeonites just as, like, you have, like, a- as, like, also my personal reaction to the idea of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, I have to lie or hide-
David: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
Seth: ... my true identity in order to be Him. I ha- like, I have to hide or, like, kill my ethnic identity-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order to be accepted by Him.
David: I have to pretend to be-
Seth: I have to be to pretend to be somebody I'm not.
David: Yes.
Seth: And, like, even like w- like... And even if you have been a Christian for a long time, to what extent does pretending-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to be one thing rather than another actually mark your obedience to the Lord when you're around other Christians? If so, you're acting like the Gibeonites deceiving their way into the covenant. You don't have to.
David: You don't have to.
Seth: You don't-
David: That's why the center of the chiasm isn't their deception.
Seth: Right.
David: The center of the chiasm is their confession.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Whoa.
David: That's fun.
Seth: Yeah. Call out to the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If your heart is melting within you, call out to Him and He will rescue, not based on who you are or what you pretend to be or your ethnic heritage or trying to look like somebody else or trying to look like the people around you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because He loves you.
David: Okay, now I have to just go into that, 'cause-
Seth: Yes
David: ... it's just an interesting imagined-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... universe there. It's just like I just wanna meditate on this. 'Cause it's like, I think a lot of times with our good works, we tend to take a good work that was really, like, going next door and making it feel like we went around the world.
Seth: What do you mean?
David: So what I mean is, so, like, the, the Gibeonites, you know, they were three towns over.
Seth: Oh. [laughs] Yeah.
David: Right? But they acted like they traveled from around the world, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh-
Seth: Wow
David: ... and I think we try to get the same mileage out of our good deeds.
Seth: It's like, "I gave money to charity."
David: Yeah, and it's like, "Oh, let me just lash myself," and-
Seth: Right
David: ... "Isn't that the greatest thing that..."
Seth: Right.
David: We make too much out of our good de-
Seth: Mm
David: ... we try to get too much mileage out of our good works.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we try to use them as ways to deceive God-
Seth: Into blessing us
David: ... into blessing us or, or veil how bad we are or hide who we truly are. And it's like m- man might buy that, like Israel and Joshua bought the Gibeonites' deception, but they didn't seek the counsel of God. God knew exactly what was happening-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and wanted to save them anyway.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you can stop the pretense-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and just bow the knee. We know that God will have the land and that we know that He is the true king. That's all he wants to hear.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: [laughs] Just-
Seth: It's so good. Anyway...
David: Okay, we have to go forward. We can go backwards.
Seth: We have to go, we, we, we have to keep going forward. This is-
David: The Gibeonite story is just too much fun to reflect on.
Seth: It is really fun. I was even thinking about, like, is this the only story where it says they did not seek the counsel of the Lord?
David: No.
Seth: It's not the only story.
David: No.
Seth: Okay. I was wondering.
David: Um, and so, uh, we're in the Battle of Gibeon-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, o- over Gibeon. Israel has come to this, their servant's aid-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as this coalition of five kingdoms comes against them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, this is, um, I don't know, like, the dream team or something of Canaan.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like, the five families. [laughs]
Seth: The five families. [laughs] Yeah.
David: For the Office fans out there. Uh, coming together, and, like, this is-
Seth: Or the Godfather fans
David: ... the Godfather fans.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: That's a reference.
Seth: That's the reference.
David: That's true. I'm referencing a reference.
Seth: Wait, wait for Michael Scott. [laughs] That's what you just did.
David: That's what I just did. That's a deep cut.
Seth: That's really-
David: We've lost a lot of people just now. Getting back to the Bible, uh, yes, these five kings come, and they band together, and they come against Gibeon. Israel comes to Gibeon's aid, and God has told Joshua that He's going to be with them. Not one of their men will fall. He will give them the city.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The victory is theirs. But the battle is so big, the, and s- like, and, like, the amount of people that are there is just so massive that, um, uh, another day is about to start. Like, the, the battle-
Seth: Oh, it-
David: ... the battle begins-
Seth: It takes two days to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... win the battle.
David: Yeah. And so-
Seth: So before we get there-
David: Okay. Yep
Seth: ... before we get to the sun standing still, which I know we're-
David: Yes, which is where I'm, we're heading
Seth: ... we're, we're going. So it's, uh, verse eight. "And the Lord said to Joshua, 'Do- don't fear the coalition, because I've given them into your hand, and not a man of them shall stand before you.' So Joshua came upon them suddenly, having marched all night from Gilgal. And then the Lord threw them into a panic."
David: Oh, right. I was gonna skip the hailstones.
Seth: I know. So you can't skip the hailstones.
David: Whoops.
Seth: And so, like, "Threw them into a panic before Israel, who struck them with a great blow at Gibeon and chased them away." So one, you have a, a panic setting in, which is something that we were already promised back in Deuteronomy-
David: With the hornets
Seth: ... with the hornets.
David: The murder hornets.
Seth: The murder hornets-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... coming in and chasing away, causing confusion in the camp.
David: Yep. God is going before them in the fight.
Seth: Before them in the fight, yep. So it's like a lot of the des- a lot of the destruction, a lot of victory isn't even by Joshua's sword.
David: Oh, yeah, we're told that. Yeah.
Seth: Yep. And then in verse 11, as they were fleeing God's panic, like atta- like panic attack-
David: God comes in, sends a panic, they flee
Seth: ... and then as that happens, large hailstones fall on them so that more die from that than the sons of Israel killed with the sword.
David: Yeah, we're told it's the Lord who throws those hailstones down.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, and God's death count, you know... Y- y- you... Speaking of two towers.
Seth: Okay.
David: This is the second two towers reference in-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in, uh-
Seth: 'Cause we're in Joshua
David: ... yeah, 'cause we're in Joshua.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, you know how Gimli and Legolas are, like, keeping count?
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: It's like God's count was higher. [laughs]
Seth: God's count was higher.
David: This is the point here.
Seth: And that's a really important detail to keep in mind.
David: It actually is.
Seth: Uh, just, like, the fact that God's victory and God's battle proficiency is highlighted more than Joshua's. We'll come back to that in a second.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You should also just have in your mind, oh, you have a panic and hailstones-
David: Coming on hard-hearted kings
Seth: ... on a hard-hearted king. [laughs] It should just, it should remind you of the Egypt narrative.
David: Yes.
Seth: And if we have, like, this already, we have a new creation, a new fall narrative, a new going out narrative, a new-
David: A new-
Seth: ... a new enslavement narrative-
David: A new deception
Seth: ... a new deception.
David: You know, at the end of Genesis.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah. Uh, wait, what deception?
David: Isaac, Jacob, Esau.
Seth: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
David: Yep.
Seth: You have all these patterns playing.
David: Genesis is getting repeated-
Seth: Genesis-
David: ... through Joshua
Seth: ... and now we have, like, Exodus getting repeated.
David: Yes.
Seth: The same plagues that God used against Egypt are now being used against God's enemies in Canaan.
David: Wowzers.
Seth: The same God is with them.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and then at that, at that, that time, at the, "Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said..." So this is Joshua's prayer.
David: Joshua's prayer.
Seth: So he, he's traveled all night-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to get to this battlefield, and he says, "Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of I- Bijthon." "And the sun stood still."And the moon stopped until the nations took vengeance on their enemies. Crazy.
David: It's crazy.
Seth: So a couple things. One, what's happening? Is this, like, perpetual light or perpetual darkness? So one, we- they'd been traveling all night.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, and the sun rises in the...
David: East.
Seth: That's right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And Gibeah was in the, uh, east.
David: Okay.
Seth: And the Valley of Aijalon was in the west. So what that means is, what he's praying for is for dusk or, like, the- that darkness-
David: Yep
Seth: ... right before the dawn. Is that dusk?
David: It's... No, that's-
Seth: Or is it twilight?
David: That's... No, that's not twilight, that's dawn.
Seth: Is that daw- it's like, it's still dark-
David: It's still dark
Seth: ... but it's like the, the light's coming up-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, before the sun rises above the-
David: And before the moon falls
Seth: ... before the moon falls. That moment-
David: Yep
Seth: ... he says, "We wanna preserve that moment-
David: Right
Seth: ... until we have victory in battle."
David: Yeah, because, uh, like, under the cloak of darkness, they're gonna come and just own their enemies.
Seth: Yep.
David: And if God is the one who's doing most of the... Like, they're not even at the city yet.
Seth: Right. Um-
David: Like, God is, like, already going before them, winning the victory. Under the cloak of dark, Go- Joshua was like, "Hey, let's finish this tonight."
Seth: And it's also, it's a surprise attack.
David: Su- yeah, sneak attack.
Seth: So verse 8, "So Joshua came upon them suddenly, having marked up all night from Gilgal." So, like, he wants to preserve the element of surprise, so it makes sense he's praying for more darkness, which should take you back to Egypt again, where the plague of darkness covers, uh, Egypt for several days.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what's... And the most important fact about this is not the complexities of the sun standing still or what does it mean for there to be darkness, but it's verse 14, "There has been no day like it before or since, when the Lord heeded the voice of the man, because the Lord fought for Israel."
David: Hmm. Why is that the most important part?
Seth: Because, one, it's telling us it's crazy. There's [laughs] been no day before-
David: It's never happening again
Seth: ... it's never happened before, it never happened since. And the l- who's the hero of the story?
David: Mm.
Seth: "When the Lord heeded the voice of the man because the Lord fought for Israel."
David: Right.
Seth: So what's the point of all these battle narratives? What's the point of the sun standing still? What's the point of the horns? What's the point of the hailstones? It's not the fact that Joshua was awesome.
David: A really faithful prayer.
Seth: And he was a great prayer.
David: He was, yep, but that's not the number one important thing to take away.
Seth: It's the fact that God is the one who's winning the battles.
David: Yeah, who's winning. Yep. Which is the subversion of other, um, accounts like this-
Seth: Yep
David: ... by their neighbors, the other ancient Near Eastern accounts.
Seth: Yeah. There's all sorts of battle accounts-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where a, a conquering king, and even a, a failed king.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, there's ba- there's battle accounts where kings who have lost battles that write stories about that battle-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and say, "We absolutely annihilated the Gibeon-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... the Gibeonites. It was a slaughter." No, you guys lost that battle, actually, but it doesn't matter.
David: Not in my book.
Seth: Not in my book. The his- the history, it-
David: The version I have
Seth: ... the history's written by the conquerors, and they can spin their story however they want. And the point is, those battle accounts were always in favor of the violence and brutality, uh, and the power of the-
David: Earthly kings
Seth: ... of the earthly king.
David: Yep. It was always propaganda for the earthly king.
Seth: Yes, that's exactly right. And so now we have the same type of propaganda-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but not for the greatness of Joshua-
David: Or Israel
Seth: ... or Israel, but the greatness of God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, [laughs] that, that's what's happening.
David: That's God's propaganda.
Seth: Yes, it's God's propaganda. God makes the sun stand still.
David: Yep.
Seth: God rains hail from the heavens. God sends panic that can't be, uh, undertaken. And the only mention of swords we get is to know that they didn't kill as many as God did. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's not about Joshua. It's about God. Um-
David: Yes. Very true.
Seth: Um.
David: Why-
Seth: Do you wanna say anything more about that?
David: Well, I mean, we, we need to... Let's talk about Jesus.
Seth: Okay.
David: Let's talk about the gospel. Um, how does this, how does this help us see the gospel more clearly?
Seth: Mm.
David: Um, I don't know.
Seth: Maybe we finish the story.
David: Should we finish the story?
Seth: Because the battle's not over yet.
David: It's true.
Seth: Because the cowardly kings have run away from the battle.
David: Oh, yeah, they have. That's right.
Seth: Um.
David: Very true. Okay. So the cowardly kings, they run away from the battle. They let their people die in battle, right?
Seth: Uh-huh. And they-
David: So their kings are fleeing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... while Israel's king is fighting.
Seth: Yep. And I thought, remember we asked, like, why is Joshua staying in the camp?
David: Mm.
Seth: Well, like, we have these cowardly kings running away-
David: Right
Seth: ... and not in the camp, so maybe it's just a sign of his bravery, his faithfulness, his-
David: Mm-hmm. Back at Ai.
Seth: Back at Ai, yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: So anyway, um, so these-
David: Yep.
Seth: And then they go hide in a cave.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: They're, and they're found hidden in a cave, and then Joshua rolls a large stone over the mouth of the cave and tells them to hold them there-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... until the battle's won. Battle, uh, uh, Joshua routes all the enemies, and he comes to deal with the five kings.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he executes them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he-
David: He hangs them
Seth: ... and he hangs them on trees.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and normally other leaders would do this. So this is where we get to actual Joshua's actions.
David: Yep.
Seth: And normally, they would hang them on trees outside of the city that they were defeated in or-
David: Yep
Seth: ... outside the capital city of the, Joshua's empire.
David: That's right, and they would stay there until they rotted.
Seth: Yes. And the, the purpose was, "Look at how powerful I am."
David: That's right.
Seth: "These five kings who you thought were great, they're nothing to me."
David: Yep. It's l- it's that classic head on a stick.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's exactly right. But what's fascinating, um, is that Joshua takes them down-
David: That night
Seth: ... that night.
David: Yep.
Seth: So why are they there?
David: Mm.
Seth: Why would Joshua do that? Like, what purpose is-
David: Right
Seth: ... hanging them on a tree even doing now if it's not for his glory and his fame?
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's, why is it here? And I, I'm not sure if I have a great answer for that yet.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why is Joshua hanging them up at all?
David: Well, I mean, one, it was his means of execution.
Seth: Yep.
David: Two, if this, if this is mimicking how the kings of the Earth do things-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it is meant to highlight how God's leaders are to act, that they are to be more compassionate.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, um, and ultimately, if, if the p-If, if the purpose of leaving dead kings on crosses for months on end to show the might of your king, if that was the purpose of it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... then by Joshua taking the kings off their crosses, um, the, the point of that is to show that Joshua wasn't the one responsible for the victory. He has nothing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to gloat about.
Seth: Oh.
David: He has nothing to be proud of-
Seth: Mm
David: ... because it was God's victory. So why leave kings up to brag about something that you didn't accomplish?
Seth: That's, yeah.
David: Joshua's rightfully not claiming the victory for himself.
Seth: Mm-hmm. He's marking the victory by hanging them on the cross-
David: Yep
Seth: ... um, but, or the tree.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then-
David: Yeah, we keep saying crosses.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Tree.
Seth: The tree. Um, and then, um, but at the same time, giving the credit to the Lord, because-
David: By taking them down.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And when he takes them down, what's funny, I think it's interesting-
David: He puts them back in the cave
Seth: ... he puts them back in the ca- and then rolls the stone back over it.
David: Yep.
Seth: And I was like, I think it's like their cowardice is like their tomb.
David: Yep.
Seth: That the place they hid ends up becoming the way in which they died.
David: Yeah, it's an i- it's an irony.
Seth: It's an irony.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is like, which is a pretty clever way to seal the fate of the enemies of God.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, you're-
David: Well, it's, and it's also a completion of how the story began, that-
Seth: Okay
David: ... their response to God is how they die.
Seth: Mm.
David: That they, they heard about the power of the Lord, and in contrast to the repentant Gibeonites, they go and fight God. And it's their hard hearts and their f- and their fighting of God that leads n- uh, to, to what they feared, which was being conquered. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like had they done something different, they wouldn't have been conquered.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and so I think it's like a, just a completion of that irony.
Seth: That's... Yeah, I think you're right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then here's why I wanted to wait-
David: Okay
Seth: ... because in verse 25 it says, so they, b- before they kill the kings, we're kind of like going out of order here, they bring the five, um, defeated kings out, and they tell all the, I guess, all the soldiers or at least all the leaders of Israel's army to come place their foot on the king's neck-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... for a moment of time. And it was a, it was a symbol of humiliation for the other kings.
David: Right.
Seth: But more importantly, it was do not, this is what, "Do not be afraid," verse 25, "Do not be dismayed. Be strong and courageous," back to Joshua 1, "because the Lord will do to all your enemies against whom you fight."
David: Mm.
Seth: So it was this like, uh, this like Ebenezer, this like standing stone, this monument-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this moment that said, "Who won the battle? The Lord did.
David: Mm.
Seth: Be strong and courageous. Have faith in the Lord because this is what he will do."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and I think what are we supposed to get out of the sun standing still? I think, I mean, pray. Pray big prayers. Like [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... but, uh, we're told that it won't happen again, so. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: So it's like this prayer might not get answered. [laughs] But I think the point is be strong and courageous. Trust and have faith in the Lord who fights our battles.
David: Yeah, it's not about having the most audacious prayer in the room.
Seth: Right.
David: It's about knowing you have the biggest God in the room.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's, that's what this is about, is like the, what's highlighted in this story is actually not Joshua's faith, but God's hearing and God's power.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's, Joshua's faith is, I don't wanna overstep, but I'm pretty sure nowhere highlighted.
Seth: Except in this verse, "And Joshua said to them, 'Do not be afraid or dismayed. Be strong and courageous for the Lord will fight.'" So that's-
David: But it's, for the Lord will fight.
Seth: The Lord-
David: So be strong and courageous because the Lord will fight.
Seth: Right.
David: So even his own a- admission is-
Seth: His faith is tied up in God's power
David: ... in God's power.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: So I think the thing that we should get out of the sun standing still is not necessarily that a, that a human being would bend a knee for a second and say a short prayer to ask night to go on forever, but that there's a God that if astronomically this actually occurred, you know, which is just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... mind-boggling to think about.
Seth: The universe would've had to stand still.
David: The entire universe would've had to pause. Gravity itself, as it works naturalistically, would've, we would've spun off the planet-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... had it stopped spinning. And yet they didn't, and so God would've had to reinforce gravity by his own hand.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: God, like-
Seth: It's, this actually-
David: I- imagine the ripple effects in the galaxy of, of, of, of-
Seth: Every planet-
David: ... 24 hours of-
Seth: ... would've had to stand still. It would-
David: ... no movement
Seth: ... if that actually happened, it's crazy.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's exactly the point.
David: That's the point.
Seth: The point is God, that's the God that fights for you.
David: Yes.
Seth: And we see that... I mean, that is a crazy miracle.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But the crazier miracle is that that God could become human.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then that God could die-
David: Like a king on a tree
Seth: ... like a king on a tree, be ro- have a stone rolled over his tomb, and then roll the stone back.
David: That's right. They were, they were stuck in their, in their cave of shame-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... and cowardice, but Jesus was not cowardly, right?
Seth: He wasn't. He didn't-
David: He didn't hide in the cave.
Seth: His tomb was one of bravery-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and strength.
David: And so he rose out of it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, because he's the same God who makes the sun stand still. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: To conquer enemies. And like, it's interesting, like now that, and like now the Son, right?
Seth: Mm.
David: The S-O-N.
Seth: Oh, uh, like God's Son.
David: Yeah, reigns in the heavens forever. He, he w- he, his, the Son of God's kingdom never sets now. Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we are forever in the eternal day-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of the risen Son. [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to just kinda play with that.
Seth: I was just, I was just, it made me thought, think about how, like, uh, in Revelation it says the s- "We won't need the sun anymore."
David: Whenever the presence of Jesus is here, yeah.
Seth: And so it's like, wow, it's like you have this moment where the sun stands still-
David: It doesn't give its light, really
Seth: ... it doesn't give light. Why? Because the Lord is there. You-
David: Wow.
Seth: You don't need-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the sun when the presence of God is there.
David: Yep. Yeah. It's also, it's also hard not to see in this story, um, if, I mean, there are just so manyVisible parallels to the gospel account.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: A king-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is hung on a tree.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] He is then buried in a cave.
David: There's a tu- there's a tomb with a stone over it.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: But then what happens before that, Seth Stewart-
Seth: Oh, God
David: ... is amazing, is a foot is placed on a head.
Seth: Oh.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Of course.
David: Genesis 3:15.
Seth: Joshua's repeating... He's like, he's visibly showing the serpent's heads are being crushed.
David: That's right. We had a promise in the beginning-
Seth: Wow
David: ... at, after the fall, which we've had a fall narrative-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Joshua, and w- and God promised that, uh, His promised, the promised seed from Eve would crush the head of the serpent.
Seth: Were you saving that this whole time?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Oh my gosh, that's so good. [laughs]
David: [laughs] And, um, and- and how will he do it? How will he crush the head of the serpent? By being the king who dies on a tree-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is taken down that very night, just like Jesus was.
Seth: Yep, same language.
David: Is put in a tomb with a stone rolled over it, but who gets back up.
Seth: That's the end of the podcast right there. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's beautiful.
David: Um, yeah. So chapter 10 ends-
Seth: Yes
David: ... with a, um, just a repetitive conquest narrative, which really leads us into 11 to 12.
Seth: Yeah, so we'll address that-
David: Yeah, next podcast
Seth: ... uh, in the next podcast.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, so 10, the end of 10 all the way through 12.
David: This is a better place to stop.
Seth: It is.
David: Yeah, that Jesus is the God who makes the sun stand still, who made Himself to be a king that died on a cross, was buried in a tomb, to save deceptive servant slaves like us, who had the power to get back up. And now His, the- the sun of His kingdom never sets, and He reigns forever. So no matter the darkness of night in which we fight, we know that there is light, because Jesus is with us.
Seth: Amazing.
David: It's so beautiful.
Seth: If you have questions about the Book of Joshua, you should totally email those questions-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to podcast, singular-
David: Mm
Seth: ... @spokengospel.com.
David: Podcast @spokengospel.com.
Seth: Uh, and send a voice recording of your, of your voice, or-
David: Type it out
Seth: ... or type it out.
David: Yep.
Seth: And hopefully we'll do, like, a question and answer, question and response type thing-
David: Yep
Seth: ... uh, depending on the questions we get.
David: Yes.
Seth: So please do that. Leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps other people experience the gospel in all the unique ways that, uh, the Bible presents it. And we'll see you next week. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [outro music]
