David: [upbeat music] God is going to save his people by blinding and then being hospitable to their enemies, by showing-
Christine: God saves his people by showing kindness to his enemies.
David: Yeah, there you go!
Christine: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our time in the Book of Acts, which has been a lot of fun. If you're just hopping in, what's been going on? Come on! Go back and listen to the rest of the Acts episodes, 'cause they've been super fun, and you've gotten to meet some new voices, one of which has been Christine, who is with me today, and we will continue to talk about the Book of Acts. And we're looking at Saul, and so-
Christine: Acts 9.
David: So tell me, Christine, why Acts 9, A- Saul's name changes to Paul?
Christine: It doesn't.
David: [laughing] Classic misnomer of, at his quote-unquote, "conversion," which might be a misnomer.
Christine: Saul doesn't change his name.
David: S-
Christine: Saul doesn't change his religion.
David: [chuckles]
Christine: None of those are a thing.
David: [chuckles]
Christine: Bye.
David: Bye. Thank you for listening. This has been the Spoken Gospel podcast. [chuckles] No. So I'm very excited to talk about this, because it kind of kick-starts a new section of the whole Book of Acts. Because in a sense, and I don't mean this literally, everyone, but in a sense, you could have ended Acts in chapter 8, where the Gospel rides on a chariot to the nations, to the ends of the earth in Ethiopia, and if you don't know why that's a thing, you should go back and listen. And it's like, cool, end of story. Jerusalem, check. Judea, Samaria, check. Ends of the earth, check!
Christine: Yep.
David: But that's not the end of the story, because there is a new apostle that's about to be chosen and commissioned and sent. The... Why is that? Why is there a- another apostle of the Gentiles that needs to be picked?
Christine: How much time have you got?
David: [laughs] I've got a-
Christine: Uh-
David: ... I've got about, a- as, as of this point, I've got about 58 minutes. So maybe we want to talk about some other things, but-
Christine: Okay, very well. Well, we
Christine: left the apostles with a missing seat that they kind of prematurely fill, or they fill by their own criteria. But we talked about how to be an apostle, you have to be sent, because that's what an apostle means, and being sent implies a sender. An apostle of Jesus to be sent by Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And so that kind of sets the stage for a 12th apostle being needed, 'cause Jesus has appeared to Stephen in the Acts story so far, but he, he receives him. [chuckles] He-
David: Yeah, he doesn't send him, he receives him.
Christine: Yeah, Stephen's mission is complete when he sees Jesus.
David: Mm.
Christine: And so we need this extra seat, this extra office to be filled, so to speak. And so we're kind of still waiting on that, which is why it seems like Acts doesn't end with the Gospel going to Ethiopia. There's still more to be said.
David: Yeah, and it's interesting that there's this open story loop, which for me, was kind of paradigm breaking, 'cause I've just never saw a problem with Acts 1's selection of... Was it Matthias?
Christine: Yes.
David: Of Matthias as the 12th apostle. I've just taken it, you know, it's the classic thing of, you know, everything the Bible describes, it prescribes, [chuckles] which I know is not true, but sometimes it's hard to pay attention to all the details and, and wonder, I wonder if they should've done it that way. And there's a lot of teaching around the fact that maybe that wasn't the right way to do it, 'cause we don't hear about Matthias again, and another apostle is selected the right way when Jesus appears to Saul. So there's this open story loop that's getting closed here with Saul, but it's not only that, like, "Oh, if we don't have 12, we got a problem." There's a lot more going on with why 12.
Christine: Yeah.
David: At the very least, there's the fact that there's these 12 tribes, and then the Twelve Apostles. What's the, there's- what's that verse in the New Testament? It says something about the apostles ruling over the tribes or judging the tribes.
Christine: "You will judge the 12 tribes of Israel."
David: Yeah, that's crazy.
Christine: Yes, which we- you said we only have 58 minutes, so we can't go into that. That's what I'm gonna use. [chuckles] Also, I wanna study it more. But there's also this promise way back in the Old Testament, which at that point was their Bible.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But there's this promise of the gathering in of the Gentiles, and the Gentiles coming to the God who is not only the God of Israel, but the God of the nations, and the God of heaven and Earth, 'cause he made heaven and Earth. And I mean, you could point to a bunch of Psalms, but I'm just gonna pick Psalm 100, but all of the nations are the sheep of God's pasture.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And Jesus talks about having
Christine: flocks in different pastures that he's going to call and gather in, and he commissions shepherds underneath him to do that. And we see one very unlikely candidate- [chuckles]
David: Yeah
Christine: ... up here, first in Acts 7, 'cause he doesn't keep God's flock, he actually murders a sheep. But nevertheless, this sheep was praying for him, and I'm talking about Stephen. [chuckles]
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Christine: And Saul, who was present at Stephen's death. And so we see Jesus having an encounter with someone who murdered his sheep.
David: Hmm.
Christine: So you can probably make some guesses what that would look like. I would assume something vengeful. I would assume trouble is coming on Saul, because he is opposing the kingdom that is unstoppable, and the God who is unstoppable, per Saul's tutor's words.... but we see something very different happen.
David: Yeah, when Jesus is about to show up to Saul, he doesn't come against him in vengeance. [chuckles] It's so much mercy.
Christine: Comes in such gentleness.
David: Yeah. So let's get into it. I, I'm excited. There's so much to talk about. I wanna get into it.
Christine: Yeah.
David: So chapter 9, verse 1: "Meanwhile, Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, he might bring them bound for Jerusalem." Okay, so Saul is breathing threats and murder. This is a- I had to look it up, 'cause I was like, "What does that mean, that he's breathing threats and murder?" It's this idea of... It was a, a Greek idiom of the venting out of what's inside you. So the breathing out is the same word as your spirit.
Christine: Okay.
David: And so as your spirit is venting itself out through your words and actions, it is revealing what is inside.
Christine: Whoa!
David: And so within Saul is threats and murder, violence and animosity, and he is just venting it out. Like, this is not some just passive, "Hey, maybe we should deal with this Christian sect" thing, these followers of the Way. He is pursuing them. He's going to the high priest, asking for permission to imprison and bring back to Jerusalem those who subscribe to the Way, probably to do exactly what he did to Stephen, and see them killed. And Paul even talks about this in some of his letters, where he's like, "Oh, I persecuted the Church. I was, I was the best at it." And, and so this is a vehement opponent of the Church.
Christine: And he's going beyond Jerusalem, because at this point, the followers of the Way have scattered.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Like, the persecution that was catalyzed by Stephen's martyrdom has sent Christians, like Philip, all over the world, which Christian is [chuckles] actually anachronistic at this point. They're not called that until later. But followers of the Way-
David: Mm
Christine: ... have gone many ways at this point [chuckles] because of the persecution instigated by this... What was, what was the idiom again?
David: Breathing out threats and murder.
Christine: Breathing- That is just-
David: Yeah, he's got murder in his spirit, and he is spewing it everywhere.
Christine: Wow!
David: Yeah. This is like a... I mean, this is a murderous dude.
Christine: Yeah, it's a terrorist.
David: Yeah.
Christine: It's like-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... some- someone who's bent on killing people.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Mm.
David: And it's fascinating that he goes to the high priest, and he's about to meet the high priest. [chuckles] I just think it's fascinating.
Christine: Oh, the high... You're talking about Jesus.
David: Jesus, yeah-
Christine: Oh! [chuckles]
David: ... the, the, the great high priest. He's about to encounter him, and he has- he's getting permission from Jerusalem's high priest to go persecute and kill the ultimate high priest in the people of Christ.
Christine: Wait a second!
David: And he's about to encounter the high priest, who is going to intercede for him [chuckles] and turn his life around. It's just cool.
Christine: Okay. Well, I mean, Stephen pointed out in his sermon that the temple is not-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... not legitimate anymore, in the sense that the temple has left the building.
David: Yeah.
Christine: The temple isn't-
David: It's about where is God?
Christine: Where is God? And God is with His people, and His Spirit is filling vessels that are not stone, but human.
David: Mm.
Christine: And if that is the new temple, and Jesus is the high priest, then what other high priest is there? It's very interesting that if the temple is not valid, then neither is the high priest that commissions-
David: That's right
Christine: ... Paul, or Saul.
David: Yeah, and so he's giving him power over life and death that he does not have to give.
Christine: Oh, I see what you're doing!
David: And the great high priest, [chuckles] who has power over life and death, is about to redirect this man-
Christine: Wow
David: ... and give him the power of life from death. [chuckles]
Christine: Wow.
David: Really cool.
Christine: That's cool.
David: And so he is- he wants to go to the synagogues at Damascus. There's two giant stories that we want to pull from the Old Testament here, and we're already running into both of them. And so I feel like we just need to get all the things on the table, so that as we walk through the story in Acts 9, we know what Luke's pulling from in the Old Testament.
Christine: Okay.
David: So I'll do one-
Christine: Okay
David: ... because I'm less familiar [chuckles] with the other one. So I'm gonna do the David story.
Christine: Okay.
David: And I'll let you share the Elisha story.
Christine: Okay.
David: So what's amazing here is you have another Saul, who is a repeat of Israel's first king, Saul.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And Israel's first King Saul was jealous of and violent toward, breathing out threats and murder toward, the anointed King of Israel in David, who was going to be his successor. And now we've just seen that Saul is the successor of Stephen. Anyway, there's things there-
Christine: Cool
David: ... we talked about in the last episode.
Christine: And they're from the same tribe.
David: And they're from the same tribe.
Christine: Saul in the Old Testament and Saul in the New Testament is a Benjamite.
David: That's right.
Christine: No wonder they're violent.
David: Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, that's right. Go-
Christine: Mm.
David: If you don't know what we're talking about, go, I don't know, Google it or something. [chuckles] Look in your Bible for Benjamin stories.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Christine: If, if, if you thought it was a good idea after Judges to make a Benjamite your king, it just shows how far Israel has come. [chuckles]
David: Ooh, yeah.
Christine: Anyways.
David: And yeah, anyway, so, so Saul, the Benjamite, in both cases, is pursuing the anointed and rightful King of Israel in David. And now Acts has presented us with Jesus as the rightful heir of the Davidic kingdom. All the promises of David are fulfilled in him. That's what the word Christ means, that he's the anointed king and chosen King of Israel, the Messiah. And so now you have a new Saul who is pursuing the body of Christ in the followers of the Way. And so when we meet Jesus on the road to Damascus, we're going to hear him say, "Why are you persecuting me?" And so this is the same kind of question that David asks King Saul, "Hey, why are you coming against me? I'm not opposed to you. I'm not trying to take your throne." Like-
Christine: Mm
David: ... And, and he serves him, and, and forgives him, and spares his life i- in some really amazing ways.
Christine: Oh, yeah.
David: And now Jesus does the same thing to Saul. He spares his life. He doesn't come against him. He could!
Christine: Yeah.
David: And-
Christine: It's a run-in with the true Messiah-
David: That's right
Christine: ... again. Oh, wow!
David: And so kind of like David in the cave with Saul-... Jesus, the son of David, spares the life of the new Saul.
Christine: That's beautiful.
David: There's just some really amazing things happening here, and so we have this showdown of the kingdom, this showdown of who's the, the ruler, where, where's the rightful ruler? And it's not going to be in this Pharisee temple structure anymore that, that Saul was a part of-
Christine: Yes
David: ... but it's in the new Davidic king, Jesus the Messiah, and that mantle is getting passed to him, and we're gonna see it as the opponent of all opponents comes against Jesus, and we're gonna see him changed and encountered, and it's gonna be incredible. So that's on the line.
Christine: Well, yeah.
David: So that's the Saul thing, and the persecution thing, but there's also this Damascus thing, which Christine and I kind of stumbled into recently, and we're very excited to share it with everyone. So-
Christine: Yeah. Well, uh, wait, are we done talking about-
David: I don't know
Christine: ... Saul and the Messiah?
David: Oh, I don't know. Go ahead.
Christine: Or-
David: Do you have any other, other, other ideas here?
Christine: Well, the- we haven't gone into the actual story in Acts 9 yet-
David: That's true
Christine: ... about the interaction with Saul and the true Messiah. But you were talking, and there's s- some more parallels, I think, that are kind of cool. The fact that in the Old Testament,
Christine: Saul is commissioned as king, which he's on another mission when he is anointed and redirected, in a way, by Samuel.
David: Yes.
Christine: He has- he's on a mission from his father, and then Samuel comes and is like, "Don't worry about the donkeys. You're gonna be king of Israel."
David: Yeah, he's on a-
Christine: And Saul's like, "What?"
David: He's on a mission to go find lost donkeys. [chuckles]
Christine: Yes, and then Samuel's like, "Listen, you have to go here, and s- when you see these people do this, and this person gives that, just accept it, and the Spirit is gonna come upon you, and you're going to prophesy." And Saul's like, "Okay," and-
David: Oh, right, and so when Saul is on a mission to go and kill Christians in Damascus, he's rerouted by not a prophet of God, but God himself in Jesus-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... and he's told, after being blinded, "You're gonna go here, do..." Uh, or I guess it's Ananias that's told. Or are they both told, "You're gonna go here and do this and this, and-
Christine: Yeah, well, s-
David: ... you'll be healed."
Christine: Yeah, Jesus commissions Ananias to go and meet Saul.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And Jesus tells Saul, "Go into Damascus, and you'll be told what to do."
David: Yeah, so kind of like Saul's thing.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Which that's interesting because Saul, in the Old Testament, had a- had trouble with waiting. He did not wait on God.
David: He did not wait on God.
Christine: He-
David: That was his problem.
Christine: That was his problem, and here we see another Saul confronted by the Messiah, and he actually waits.
David: He waits three days.
Christine: He, he waits... He doesn't even eat during that time-
David: No
Christine: ... which can only imagine what he was thinking about [chuckles] during that time. We might go into that later.
David: We might go into that. Yeah, okay. Any other Saul/David parallels to bring out there at this time?
Christine: Um, well, it's another difference between old Saul and this Saul, is the Spirit comes on both, but the Spirit leaves Old Testament Saul.
David: Yeah, he does, yeah.
Christine: And the Spirit does not leave New Testament Saul.
David: Mm.
Christine: It just, whenever the Spirit does come, it's a strange, like, Saul just joins the prophetic community, and everyone's like, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
David: Right.
Christine: And it becomes not a bi- well, I don't know. I don't quite know the tone with which that is said-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... or the context, but it just seems very unlikely, 'cause they're like, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
David: It's said a little incredulously, it sounds.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yes, like, "Oh, are pigs flying now?" Or I don't know, [chuckles] if that's an equivalent there. Correct me if not, but it's just interesting that at the end of New Testament Saul's story, it's like, "Is Saul also among the Jesus followers?" [chuckles]
David: Right.
Christine: And the Spirit never leaves him, and he-
David: Yeah, people are incredulous that-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... this man, can we even trust him? He was coming here to kill us.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Is he now a follower of The Way?
Christine: I don't know.
David: Yeah.
Christine: But yeah.
David: So many parallels.
Christine: A lot.
David: So something to meditate on.
Christine: For sure.
David: Okay, but there's also this Damascus link.
Christine: Yes.
David: Which is crazy, 'cause... So just fill everyone in on the story. Christine and I are studying [chuckles] this passage, and we're kind of going through, as we do, and we're looking at the bigger themes, and then we start to kind of get down into the weeds, and I'm like, "Okay, why Damascus? What's the purpose of it?" And we don't really come up with a great answer. We realize, like, oh, Abraham's heir would've been Eliezer of Damascus-
Christine: Yes
David: ... had he not had Isaac as an heir. That's the first time we meet the word, Damascus, so maybe it's something about Damascus being just outside the covenant people of God, and that's now who Saul's going to. Okay, that's at least what we can say. But then we start digging deeper into the story of Acts 9, and we're like, "Okay, what, what's happening with the, the motifs here?" There's blindness, and there's a vision, and we're already meditating on Saul as a new Elisha, who receives-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... the mantle from Stephen.
Christine: Yes.
David: Like Elijah passed-
Christine: A successor
David: ... his mantle on to Elisha, and Christine is reminded of this story from 2 Kings 6.
Christine: Yeah, it's specifically a story from Elisha's life when he traps blinded Arameans in... During the time of, I actually forget what king is in charge here, but it is when Aram is raiding Israel repeatedly. So there's this hostile people that is pursuing or persecuting
Christine: the Israelites, and, and this is where you, David, just made us both digress into puddles of awe, which f- is when you were- your deep dive had you surface with, "Damascus is Aram!" [chuckles]
David: Yeah, it was crazy.
Christine: We were like-
David: Throughout the whole Bible, you get... It's like when you realize, oh, Nineveh is the capital of Assyria. It's just one of those moments, and you're like-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... "Oh, Aram is Damascus."
Christine: Yes.
David: And, and just a, a brief search surfaces tons of verses that tie these two together as the same place. So where Elisha is, a- and this violent city he's talking about that is oppressing the people of God, is Damascus. And so anyway, I just wanted to be like-
Christine: Yeah, yeah, the people coming for the people of God are the Arameans or people from Damascus-
David: Yes
Christine: ... Damascenes. And so-
David: And so already, that story's inverted, where now the people of Israel are going after the people in Damascus.
Christine: ... Yes. Yes. So, yeah, that's right.
David: Right.
Christine: Uh-huh. Crazy!
David: It's crazy.
Christine: And Elisha has this moment with his servant, because Eli- [chuckles] God is tipping Elisha off with, of all the, like, movements of the Arameans, and Elisha in turn tells the king, and then this gets the Arameans angry 'cause they can't outwit the Israelite army, 'cause they always, for some reason, know. And the Aramean king is like, "Who's ratting on us?" And they're like, "It's this Elisha guy who keeps telling your movements to the king, even what you whisper in your bed."
David: In the same way that God tips Ananias off of where his enemy Saul is?
Christine: Could be. [chuckles]
David: That's pretty cool! [chuckles] Anyway-
Christine: Could be.
David: All right.
Christine: All right, sure. Telling Ananias exactly what Paul is doing in that-
David: Uh-huh
Christine: ... hidden room. Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Okay, sure. Whatever. [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Christine: There's another connection. This is why you read the Bible in community, guys.
David: Yep.
Christine: So anyways, Elisha is taking refuge in this city that's fortified, but the Aramean army comes for him, and the servant of Elisha is freaking out 'cause he sees this strong force besiege the city, and they're like, "My master, they're coming for us." And Elisha says, "Don't be afraid of them. Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." This is from 2 Kings 6:16. And then Elisha prays, "O Lord, open his eyes so he may see." And the Lord opens the eyes of the servant, who then sees, and he sees the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. So there's... I don't wanna, like, go beat for beat through the whole story because it would be [chuckles] it'd take a long time, but there's this motif of spiritual and physical blindness going on.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Christine: And so as the servant of Elisha has spiritual eyes opened to see the reality around him, and this heavenly force that is protecting them, the p- Prophet Elisha also prays for physical blindness for the Aramean army, and God answers his prayer. The Arameans are struck blind. Then Elisha goes out and says, "This is the wrong city. Let me take you to the city you are looking for." And he leads them blind into the city of the king of Israel, and then he prays, "O Lord, open the eyes of these men so they can see." And when God opens the eyes of the blinded soldiers, they realize that they are square in the middle of Samaria. So now the enemy, the captive, has been taken captive, and then surprisingly, again, at the advice of Elisha the prophet, they are shown kindness. They are shown hospitality. The king asks Elisha, "Should I kill all these?" And Elisha says, "No, you should definitely not. You should just give them food and water, and make sure that they can have all to eat and drink, and then go back to their master." So [chuckles] they prepare a great feast for them. [chuckles] They lay a table for their enemies, and then return to their master later. And the bands of Aram, uh, the story con- concludes with the bands of Aram, or the Arameans, not raiding Israel's territory anymore.
David: Well, there you go.
Christine: So-
David: I mean, so-
Christine: There's a lot there, but-
David: There's a lot there.
Christine: Connect what you're seeing, 'cause I just told the story, but-
David: It, it sounded l- I couldn't tell which story you were telling-
Christine: [chuckles]
David: ... 'cause it's [chuckles] sometimes it sounded like Elisha, sometimes it sounded like Saul. I think that's the point. But yeah, you've got Saul is spiritually blind, so in a way, one way he's the servant, 'cause he's not seeing how-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... Jesus is the king-
Christine: Yes
David: ... of the world. And even now that Stephen, who he martyred, is r- one of the, like, invisible powers now ruling with Jesus, [chuckles] and he can't see the chariots on the mountain.
Christine: Nope.
David: So he's struck physically blind by Jesus, in the same way that Elisha brings physical blindness on the Arameans in order to kind of show them that, but also to get power over them, and then he's led into a city.
Christine: Yeah, he's led by the hand.
David: Yes.
Christine: Like, yeah.
David: So-
Christine: So he's taken- he's a captor who's taken captive.
David: Yeah, he wanted to go and take people bound to Jerusalem, but now-
Christine: Yes
David: ... Saul is being bound and, in a sense, and taken to-
Christine: Ah
David: ... this new city that he was going to be an, an oppressor of.
Christine: Yes. Wow.
David: And so then his, when his eyesight is restored, in this enemy territory-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... he is met by a prophet of God, who comes and shows him hospitality.
Christine: Yes.
David: And he give- he literally gives him food.
Christine: Yeah.
David: He takes some food after-
Christine: He takes food
David: ... he's baptized-
Christine: Wow
David: ... and regains his strength.
Christine: That's-
David: It's, it's, it is the same story, [chuckles] and it's really cool.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And so-
Christine: And he stops raiding God's people.
David: And then he stops raiding God's people, and the people of God are saved.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so it's just amazing. Uh, we'll- we can get into why this is important, but just the way the Bible's written [chuckles] just always-
Christine: Luke's smart.
David: Luke's smart, and he knows his Bible, and God's just so brilliant in not only how Luke captured it, but how God is telling this historical, interconnected story throughout time, where we get to see that we're not alone in these adventures [chuckles] with Him. That He's patching us in to everything He's been doing.
Christine: Yeah, and Saul is brilliant student of Gamaliel as well. We kind of hinted at that in the episode on Stephen, but... And Saul says as much of himself, that he was brought up under the tutelage of Gamaliel. So he knows his Bible extremely well, as well as Stephen, and he would not have missed these connections-
David: No
Christine: ... for sure. If anything, he's, yeah-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... pondering them, and-
David: Well, and him and, him and Luke were shipmates for a long time. We're gonna find out later in Acts.
Christine: That's right, yeah.
David: And so he was probably telling him this story and making the connections for him. [chuckles] Like, I would not be surprised.
Christine: Yes, and Luke finds this story of Saul meeting Christ important enough to record it three times in Acts.
David: That's right.
Christine: So it's a pivotal moment in the narrative-
David: Yes
Christine: ... enough to be retold.
David: Yeah. And so God is going to save His people by blinding and then being hospitable to their enemies.
Christine: ... God saves his people by showing kindness to his enemies.
David: Yeah, there you go!
Christine: Okay.
David: So there it is. I mean, I'm like, what, what's the purpose of this story, other than showing, hey, uh, you know, Saul's a new Elisha, who's gonna do m- do miraculous things among the nations, and bring them to the God of Israel?
Christine: Yeah.
David: Which is something Elisha does. But also to show that in this particular story, that, yeah, like you said, that God is gonna save His people by showing kindness to enemies. It's just incredible.
Christine: He turns the Benjamite soldier into a shepherd of the flock.
David: Yeah, which was never lost on Saul.
Christine: No.
David: He talked about it all the time. "I'm the worst of sinners."
Christine: Yes.
David: "I count everything in the past rubbish for the [chuckles] surpassing worth of knowing Christ." Anyway, he's never lost the zeal for his own testimony of what God's done in his life.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah, and the fact that it's... Jesus doesn't come and temper his zeal, He just reroutes it.
David: Oh.
Christine: He corrects it.
David: So good.
Christine: He doesn't change who Saul is, in terms of characteristic or character trait. He- Saul doesn't forget all of his Hebrew teaching. In fact, his conversion, if we're calling it that right now, his encounter with Jesus makes him an unstoppable force immediately after that. 'Cause he's going to synagogue, and they're preaching, and he's like, "That reminds me of that, reminds me of that!"
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: "Wait a second, that..." He's just kind of put in, put in the right place of history that, "Oh, the Messiah has come, and I've been persecuting Him, and now He's shown me mercy? This is amazing. Okay, well, that means the Gospel still goes to the Gentiles. I know my Bible. I know what Isaiah said. I know what all these other things are pointing to." So suddenly, everything just kind of falls into place for this Bible nerd [chuckles] now that he's met Jesus.
David: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, everything makes sense now, 'cause I see how Jesus fulfills it." [chuckles]
Christine: Yes, and then-
David: What do you know?
Christine: Yeah.
David: Okay, so moving on in the story now that we've got [chuckles]... given these two crazy Old Testament stories.
Christine: We're here to talk about Acts 9.
David: Oh, yeah.
Christine: We told you about Samuel and Kings, but-
David: Yeah, it's fine
Christine: ... Acts 9.
David: Verse 3 now: "Now, as he was going along and approaching Damascus..." Da, da, da, we know what that means now.
Christine: We've seen that before.
David: "Suddenly, a light," we've seen that, [chuckles] too, in the story, "from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?' He asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' The reply came, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But get up [chuckles] and enter the city, and you will be told what to do.'" All right, we'll stop there. What's jumping out at you, Christine?
Christine: Elisha's servant saw the hosts of the Lord.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Here, Saul sees the Lord of hosts.
David: Well, [laughs] okay.
Christine: Who asks him-
David: Yeah
Christine: ..."Why are you doing this? Why are you persecuting me?"
David: Hmm.
Christine: Of all the things that he could say to his, we could call him his worst enemy right now-
David: Mm
Christine: ... Saul's very life is in the hands of Jesus, and Jesus just asked him, "Why are you hurting me?" To me, humility just jumps out, and great mercy, and deep, deep affection and identification with His people.
David: Yeah.
Christine: "Why do you persecute me?"
David: Me.
Christine: Yeah, Saul never laid a hand on Jesus-
David: Right
Christine: ... but he murdered Stephen-
David: Mm
Christine: ... and many other people in Jerusalem, so.
David: Yeah.
Christine: "Why are you doing this?" is such a humble question.
David: It is. It's not, "How dare you? Who do you think you are? Don't you know who I am?"
Christine: Yeah.
David: Anything like that. It's, "Why are you persecuting me?"
Christine: "Why are you hurting me?"
David: Yeah. "What have I done [chuckles] to you?" Yeah.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: It's just this humble question, and then his deep union with his people, with Jesus's people. "When you- what you've done to the least of these, you're doing to me."
Christine: Yeah.
David: "As you're coming against my people in Damascus, you're coming against me."
Christine: Mm.
David: And this is that idea of this union with Christ that we've talked about throughout Acts, that what Jesus began to do in Volume 1 of Luke, his people are continuing to do in Volume 2, because they are Christ's body on Earth. And Saul is actively persecuting the body of Christ, his hands and his feet. He is hurting because of this deep communion that Jesus has with his people.
Christine: It reminds me of what you were talking about with Saul versus David, because Saul, the son of Kish, persecuting David, is creating a counter-kingdom. Not the one that God chose, 'cause God rejects Saul's kingdom in favor of David's dynasty and kingdom. David will be the one who unites Israel, who unites God's people. And Saul, by opposing David, puts himself in opposition outside of the Messianic kingdom-
David: Mm
Christine: ... that God is building. And so he, Saul, in the New Testament, finds himself in the same predicament. He, who's defending the high priest of the temple, is suddenly realizing-
David: My allegiances are wrong.
Christine: Yeah. [chuckles] And-
David: I'm trying to fight for the wrong kingdom and the wrong king.
Christine: Yes, and he has a choice here, uh, just like Saul of the Old Testament. But
Christine: the Saul of the Old Testament, in pride, rejects the chosen Messiah, and here Saul of the New Testament, con- being confronted with the true Messiah and the true kingdom, repents.
David: Yeah. Uh, Jesus says to him, "But get up and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do." He claims lordship-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... over Saul really quickly.
Christine: He overrides the high priest's commission. [laughs]
David: [laughs] So true, yes! He does, he's like, "I- here, here's what you're actually gonna do, 'cause I'm your high priest, and I'm gonna bring you into my temple," which is really cool. "I'll tell you what to do." "So the men who were traveling with him stood speechless, because they heard the voice but saw no one." Spiritual blindness, kind of like the servant from 2 King 6, that we talked about. "So Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing."... and though his eyes were open-
Christine: There's another-
David: There's another double entendre.
Christine: Yeah.
David: He now knows who the resurrected Lord is. He saw something his servants did not.
Christine: Yes.
David: And yet he is physically blind, but now spiritually seeing.
Christine: Yes, and is in shock. [chuckles]
David: And is in shock. [chuckles]
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so they led him by the hand, which we've talked about, and brought him into Damascus
Christine: That is apparently full of Christians who are fleeing from Saul.
David: Yes.
Christine: So he's in a town that has, yeah, a lot of people that he was persecuting.
David: It's interesting. This is a total deep meditation. I'm not saying this is good exegesis, but this is a deep meditation. I'm just gonna share it 'cause I love it. As we think about the, the chariots that surrounded the city in 2 Kings 6, now he's coming into a town where he doesn't know who all is opposed to him. He knows who he, he was opposed to.
Christine: Yeah.
David: But in this city, there are followers of The Way, and he is surrounded by-
Christine: He's surrounded by David's mighty men. [chuckles]
David: By David's mighty men. [chuckles] He is surrounded by in- those enthroned with Christ on high. Like Paul will say later in one of his, his letters, "You know, set your minds on things that are above, where you are seated with Christ in the heavenly places right now."
Christine: Where Christ is seated.
David: Where Christ is-
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Christine: Uh-huh.
David: Yeah, where Christ is seated, so set your mind there, and he's entering a city where he is surrounded by people who are in Christ, who is enthroned. And so he's surrounded by a bunch of chariots, in a sense.
Christine: Probably the enemy party right now.
David: Yeah, exactly. [chuckles]
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so it's just cool to think about.
Christine: Yeah. Wow.
David: And so for three days, he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank. What's the sign- why is he not eating or drinking? Any thoughts there?
Christine: There can be a lot there. I mean, not eating and drinking is a sign of fasting-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... and
Christine: deep, deep anguish.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Repenting. Like, if you, if you're stressed out of your mind, you can't eat. But I don't know, there could be multiple things going on. I think part of this is showing he's repenting.
David: I think so, too. Yeah.
Christine: And if it's
Christine: hyperbolizing his, like, the contrast between him and Saul, who just could not wait for-
David: Mm
Christine: ... even big tasks. Saul isn't even eating or drinking until he gets a new, a new appointment from-
David: Right, he, he said, "I'll be told what to do."
Christine: Yes, like,
David: "So I'm sitting right here-
Christine: I'm not
David: ... until you tell me what to do."
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yep.
Christine: It's crazy, but he also is probably just grief-stricken, and-
David: Oh, yeah. Well, especially he's like, "I've seen the ascended king, that Stephen, my pupil, friend-"
Christine: Yeah, could have been his friend.
David: Yeah, friend.
Christine: His-
David: Yeah, like, "I killed..."
Christine: Fellow student-
David: And-
Christine: "... 'cause I thought he was a heretic."
David: Right.
Christine: And now it's like, Stephen was right.
David: Yeah, so this is what people do when they sit in sackcloth and ashes. They don't eat or drink.
Christine: Yeah.
David: This is what people do when they're in deep repentance. They don't eat or drink.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so, and this is what people do when they're f- fasting and praying. He's waiting for a word from the Lord.
Christine: He's waiting, yeah.
David: So he's fe- he's, he's fasting for that reason, too.
Christine: Yeah.
David: So lots of reasons why.
Christine: Yeah, and Ananias is s- told by Jesus that Saul is praying, so at the very least-
David: Yeah, that's what he's doing.
Christine: Yeah.
David: He's fasting and praying.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's for three days-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... without sight.
Christine: Hmm.
David: He's three days in darkness-
Christine: Wow, this sounds familiar
David: ... and about to experience resurrection life. [chuckles]
Christine: Okay. [chuckles]
David: If you need us to draw you a map to that Jesus turn, you've- [chuckles]
Christine: [chuckles]
David: ... this is your first time on the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Christine: Welcome! [chuckles]
David: [chuckles] We're really glad you're here.
Christine: There's death and resurrection separated by three days.
David: [inhales]
Christine: Yeah.
David: Great.
Christine: And testing, like, that's a testing-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... kind of number as well, especially in Samuel, so.
David: Mm.
Christine: Which those are rabbit holes we can talk about later. But yeah, the fact that Saul is, i- his brand-new fidelity or his command is, could be tested for a time-
David: Mm
Christine: ... 'cause God could have told Ananias to go, you know, after one day or that evening.
David: Or 40 days.
Christine: Or 40 days. [chuckles]
David: [chuckles] He knows his Bible.
Christine: He does. [chuckles]
David: He could be like, "I'm in this for the long haul."
Christine: Yeah.
David: Fascinating.
Christine: Cool.
David: Verse 10: Now, there was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias, who we've talked about a few times.
Christine: Yes.
David: "The Lord said to him in a vision, 'Ananias.' He answered, 'Here I am, Lord.' The Lord said to him, 'Get up and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul. At this moment, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias...'" Hey, that's you, buddy.
Christine: [chuckles]
David: ... "'Come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.' But Ananias answered, 'Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And here, he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who invoke your name.' "
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: "But the Lord said to him, 'Go, for he is an instrument whom I have chosen to bring my name before Gentiles and kings and before the people of Israel. I myself will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.' " Okay, the call of Ananias.
Christine: Yeah. It's- there's so much in this that is really beautiful and really cool and really shows just the s-
Christine: the influence or the, I don't know, notoriety that Saul had.
David: Yeah, the wrong kind of notoriety. [chuckles]
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, the wrong kind. Infamy, I guess, would be a better word.
David: Yeah.
Christine: But the fact that Ananias not only knows who Saul is, which h- he could have... W- we don't know. He's in Damascus. We don't know how he got there. He might have lived there, he might have fled there. But the fact that Jesus tells him about Saul and even says that, "And by the way, he's blind," and Ananias is still afraid of him, [chuckles]
David: Oh, man, yeah.
Christine: [chuckles] It's just... It tells you just what a terror Saul was, too.
David: It's almost like he was breathing out threats and murder or something.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Something like that, and Ananias, I'm sure, has... He could have been Saul's next target. We don't know, but he is hesitant to go to take up this prophetic calling, 'cause, yeah, the Lord called to him in a vision.
David: Sorry, I'm just realizing, and this might be a stretch, but I am realizing another connection between Saul and David.
Christine: Yeah?
David: That-... Saul, the new Saul, is in a dark place, unable to see, vulnerable, and God sends Himself. The new Son of David goes in his servant, Ananias.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Sneak up on him and take his- his life was in his hands.
Christine: Yeah, I see what you're doing. That's cool.
David: And in- and instead, [chuckles] he sh- he shows mercy-
Christine: Mercy, yeah
David: ... and f- and forgiveness, and oh, that's just so cool.
Christine: Yeah. You're thinking of David and Saul in the cave, right?
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Where David sneaks up on Saul, who's persecuting him, and snips off a piece of his cloak to show his proximity.
David: Yeah, "I could have taken your life."
Christine: Yes. Yes.
David: And I didn't.
Christine: And we see... Yeah, and Ananias, after a bit of hesitation, [chuckles] does obey his, his Lord, and goes to the place, and yeah, he went to the house where Saul was and entered it. And before we say what he does, can we talk about his name again? [chuckles]
David: Yes. I saw your face when I said his name for the first time, so what does his name mean, O Christine of names?
Christine: His name means God is gracious, or Yahweh is gracious.
David: Well, there you go. [chuckles]
Christine: So who better to show the heart, to be the hand of Jesus, than Ananias, who places his hand
Christine: on the man who's- who came to kill him-
David: Mm
Christine: ... and calls him brother?
David: Yeah, Saul.
Christine: Brother Saul.
David: Brother Saul.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah, which is what Stephen
David: called the elders who were killing him.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Brothers and fathers.
Christine: Yes, yes.
David: [chuckles] Whether, whether it's gonna turn out good for you or not.
Christine: Yeah. It's a sign of respect.
David: Yeah.
Christine: He is among his, like, superiors, but in this case, it's Ananias is already calling him one of him, and says that he has been sent to him to restore his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. And it's just, it's so beautiful, seeing the way Jesus, through his people, Jesus and His people move toward their enemies with grace, with
Christine: tenderness, with compassion, with questions like, "Why are you doing this?"
David: Mm.
Christine: They don't breathe out threats and murder-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... at those who breathe threats and murder against them.
David: Let me double-click on that, 'cause I think it's opening up something for me that people have asked me questions about before. This, this line in verse 16, "I myself will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name."
Christine: Hmm.
David: This is not, "Well, Saul made a lot of people suffer, so Jesus is gonna make him suffer." Like, this is not, this is not math. This is mercy, as we've seen in Ananias's name.
Christine: Mm. Mm-hmm.
David: And what he's saying is exactly what you just said, where, where he's like, "He has seen what it looks like to go to the enemies of my people and proclaim forgiveness and peace to them."
Christine: Yes.
David: "And I'm gonna show him myself, 'cause that's what I did."
Christine: Yes.
David: "It's for the sake of my name."
Christine: Yeah.
David: And this isn't just
David: evangelism.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: This is, "If you are going to hold and bear my name and not take it in vain, you are going to suffer, because you are going to take forgiveness and love to people who will gnash their teeth at you and be vehemently opposed to the love and the mercy that you're offering them, and hurt you for it." And that is what happens to Saul again and again and again in his ministry-
Christine: Yes
David: ... is that he takes the message of Jesus to people and is killed-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... stoned, whipped, like, beaten-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... shipwrecked.
Christine: Go to 2 Corinthians-
David: Yes
Christine: ... to see his list of what he gets to do.
David: Yeah, his list of-
Christine: An emphasis on gets to.
David: [chuckles] His list, his bragging list of accomplishments.
Christine: Like-
David: His glory resume
Christine: ... look at how miserable my life is. Thanks be to God, I am in the right place now, in the right kingdom.
David: And so Saul-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... is suffering for the sake of Jesus's name because he bears Jesus's name, because he is going to be Jesus on Earth and will be persecuted-
Christine: Yes
David: ... because he is Jesus on Earth. "As they persecuted me, so they will persecute you," Jesus said, and so he's being incorporated into the name.
Christine: Yes, and we've seen, and not even that, but apostleship.
David: That's right.
Christine: 'Cause we saw the apostles in Acts 5. They were flogged by the religious leaders and threatened not to speak again in the name of Jesus, and they are like, "We suffered for the sake of the name. What an honor!" And so here, Jesus is including this bran- like, the, [chuckles] the one untimely born. He said, "We'll take this one that was persecuting you as well." And we see Saul take up that mantle of suffering for the sake of the name.
David: Mm. Okay, thanks for letting me go down that rabbit hole.
Christine: That was really good.
David: I needed that. So yeah, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the way here, has sent me to you so that you might regain your sight and be [chuckles] filled with the Holy Spirit." Like you- And we talked about this comparison to the first Saul, where he kind of just got weirdly wrapped up in the spirit thing.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And this is a different kind of filling, and a different kind of seeing, and a different kind of commissioning.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: "And immediately, something like scales fell from his eyes, and his sight was restored. Then he got up and was baptized, and after taking some hospitality from Ananias," [chuckles] after taking some food, "he regained his strength."
Christine: Phew.
David: What's popping out to you there?
Christine: Well, hospitality began with Brother Saul. [chuckles]
David: Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Christine: And being filled with the Spirit and being baptized, I mean, he, he's full [chuckles] before he takes his first bite.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Not to discredit the meal, but-
David: I've not thought about this, so if I take us down a path that's completely unhelpful, you can just pull me back in. But it would've been... I'm just gonna say it as a statement. It would've been an anathema or a pretty big break in his life to be baptized as a Pharisee of Pharisees, being baptized in the name of a Messiah?
Christine: Hmm.
David: Like-
Christine: It would have fully identified him with the Jesus crowd.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yes, and so that is definitely him revoking his agreement that Stephen should've been killed, in a sense.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.... but yeah, but it's also him. We talked about how Philip explaining the passage about Jesus to the eunuch involved the suffering servant undergoes a baptism of death and resurrection-
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: -and that's how you enter the Kingdom of God. And so here Saul is joining in that death and resurrection, kind of foreshadowing his identification with the name of Jesus-
David: Mm.
Christine: -and also his, his mission-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... that he's under now.
David: And not to undercut anything I said earlier about Saul's future suffering on Earth, but in a sense, there is this, "I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake. He must die-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... in the waters of baptism."
Christine: Hmm. Yeah.
David: "And put himself on the cross-
Christine: Yeah
David: -and die."
Christine: Wow, did Saul write that?
David: Yeah, right? Oh, wait, hold on. I think he said that, like, in three different epistles. [laughs] Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, we're also talking about the guy who is, like, second-biggest author of the New Testament, or I don't know how to say that, right, but-
David: Yeah, 'cause there's, are we talking about number of books or word count here?
Christine: Word count.
David: Yeah, exactly.
Christine: Yes, yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: But Saul is gonna be doing a lot of writing and a lot of suffering, and a lot of teaching and preaching, and undergoing a lot of, how shall we say, surviving impossible situations-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... for the sake of-
David: The name
Christine: ... the name.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. Which that's also cool that Ananias talks about when he responds in hesitation to Jesus. He says, "This guy is here to arrest all who call on your name." So there are people in Damascus calling on the name of Jesus.
David: Hmm.
Christine: That's worship. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: That's... That is them worshiping Jesus, the ascended Lord, who came as a human, who walked among them, and who rose again, and now they're like, "This is, this is our Messiah. This is Yahweh. This is the one we worship," and this is the one Saul gets baptized into.
David: Yeah, he's-
Christine: One of the only people-
David: He's full in now.
Christine: Yeah. He's all in.
David: He's, he's died to that Pharisee life and-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... is, is doing this. I mean, he, he says it himself, "I count it all rubbish."
Christine: Yes, yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, and that's all about all the good stuff. [laughs]
David: Right? Yeah, all the good stuff.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Oh, my gosh, incredible.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay, so then Saul starts preaching-
Christine: Yes
David: ... in Damascus-
Christine: Yes
David: ... for several days.
Christine: The Bible nerd finally had something click in his mind, and now he won't stop.
David: Reminds me of two people I know.
Christine: [laughs] Same.
David: "For several days, he was with the disciples in Damascus, and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, 'He is the Son of God!'" [laughs] Like, the very thing that Jesus got crucified for-
Christine: Yes
David: ... which is incredible.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Wow.
David: All who... Like, this [laughs] yeah, I was reading, like, go read John 10. This is exactly what they try to pin Jesus on for saying and call it blasphemy, and now this Pharisee, who would've said that was blasphemous, is-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... it's on his lips.
Christine: Yes. Like, this is a Gamaliel tutor.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Did he get infected with the same stuff as Stephen? Now it's like-
David: No, his Bible just started making real sense.
Christine: Yes. Is Saul also among the Christians?
David: [laughs] Yeah, "And all who heard him were amazed and said," exactly this, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem among those who invoked this name? And has he not come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?" You know what's interesting is this is a bit like a new Exodus story, too. You have this potential slavery. This binding language keeps coming up, and now there's rescue through water-
Christine: Hmm
David: ... that Saul gets baptized, and no one's getting bound anymore. Anyway.
Christine: Wow, it's like the parting of the Red Sea was a form of baptism or something.
David: Man, it's like Saul wrote about that, too, later in a letter.
Christine: It's like, yeah, maybe that's [laughs] congruent with something he wrote.
David: Oh, my gosh. There's too many good Pauline references here.
Christine: [laughs] 'Cause finally we can start quoting this guy.
David: Oh, my gosh.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Uh, and then Saul became increasingly more powerful and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was Messiah.
Christine: Well, you can imagine Stephen's defense multiplied for as many audiences Saul had [laughs] had.
David: Yep.
Christine: He was like, "Now let me walk you through Genesis and prove to you- [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: Let me do a Philip thing and-
David: Exactly
Christine: ... begin."
David: "Pick any scripture, and beginning with that one, I will-
Christine: Pick a scripture, any scripture.
David: [laughs]
Christine: I'll show you Jesus is the Messiah."
David: It's the dream.
Christine: Yeah, indeed.
David: Oh, man. So after some time has passed, the, the Jews plotted to kill him. Sound familiar?
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Now Saul is being brought into the story of Jesus, into the story of Stephen.
Christine: Yes.
David: And this plot to kill him is now coming against him.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Well, their best teacher has now-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... g- like, turned heretic at this point. For them, it's like, "What the heck happened to Saul? He was one of our best guys-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and now he's teaching this stuff?" Awesome.
David: How dare he?
Christine: Yeah.
David: But their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night so that they might kill him, but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a basket.
Christine: Well, at least his dignity was preserved. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: [laughs]
David: It's like, man, this guy who came in with papers from Jerusalem, marching in, ready to take over and bring his power over everything, is shamefully sneaking out a back hole in the wall.
Christine: Well, and yeah, helped by his disciples, which you mentioned Moses and baptism earlier. I remember Moses was in a basket, too.
David: He was.
Christine: Escaping persecution.
David: Escaping persecution.
Christine: So-
David: Well, it also made me think about David's escape with the help of his-
Christine: Oh, yeah, with Michal
David: ... his crew. Mm-hmm.
Christine: Yeah. Well, Michal, like, lowers him out of... They were trapped in a tower one time, and she, like, dresses up an idol to look like him. [laughs]
David: That's right.
Christine: [laughs] And then they make their escape.
David: And so there are shameful escapes.
Christine: Yes, but not sh- we know Saul is not afraid to die, but the story is preserved for, I don't know, various reasons.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But it is kind of funny to see how he begins.
David: "And when he had come to Jerusalem," verse 26, "he attempted to join the disciples, and they were all [laughs] afraid of him, and they didn't-
Christine: Justifiably.
David: Yeah, justifiably.
Christine: They didn't know what happened in Damascus.
David: No.
Christine: Yeah.
David: He's like, "Hey, guys, let's hang out." This seems like a trap.
Christine: Yeah, they might even think, like, "Are you just trying to find who's a real... Like, is this a new Ruth-
David: Right
Christine: ... kind of a thing?"
David: Yeah.
Christine: So.
David: Wouldn't be the first time.
Christine: Nope.
David: ... for they did not believe that he was a disciple. But Barnabas [chuckles] took him, brought him to the apostles, and described for them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus. So he went in and out among them in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. He spoke and argued with the Hellenists, but they were attempting to kill him, and when the brothers and sisters learned of it, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.
Christine: Where he came from.
David: Where he came from. [chuckles] Send you back where you came from. Not quite the same thing.
David: [inhales] Yeah, anything there before we get to the cool little ending of this story?
Christine: [inhales] Well, I love Barnabas advocating.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Again, he's got-
David: The son of encouragement?
Christine: Yes.
David: [chuckles]
Christine: Yeah, you're catching on. [chuckles]
David: I'm catching on to how important names are.
Christine: Names are very significant, and yeah, Barnabas comes along, and he and Saul are gonna be, you know, attached at the hip for a lot of the rest of Luke's narrative, and doing great miracles, taking the gospel to the Gentiles, getting persecuted for it. And we see Barnabas advocating for someone that everyone else is afraid of.
David: Mm.
Christine: I just think that's really beautiful.
David: Yeah. Something that really didn't happen
David: so much in Jesus's trials [chuckles] and everything. It's just- he- I'm just thinking even that's sweet of the Lord, that He sends an advocate for Saul, his-
Christine: Mm
David: ... [chuckles] his biggest-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... enemy turned loyal follower. He's like, "I'll send you a, an encourager."
Christine: Yes.
David: I think that's just-
Christine: That's beautiful
David: ... very sweet.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Well, and he's, he's shipped off to Tarsus at this point, and disappears for a while until the same Barnabas goes and gets him for ministry in Antioch later.
David: Mm.
Christine: But yeah.
David: Yeah. And so, to close out the story in a really cool way, it's gonna loop everything back together. [chuckles] Verse 31: "Meanwhile, the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and was built up. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers." So you guys remember [chuckles] how we've been talking about David and Saul, and at the, at the end of David's reign, something very similar is said as he brings the United Kingdom together of Samaria and of Judea, and you have this idea of peace coming to the land under his reign. And so you have this new Messianic reign happening, and what seems to stop here is the persecution kind of cools off for a little bit.
Christine: Now that the chief persecutor's turned.
David: Now the chief persecutor's turned, and that's pretty special. And there's this time of peace for the people, and they get to grow and increase in numbers in, in a season of peace because the new Davidic King is ruling over the area and is bringing peace. Which is, which is special, 'cause there, there's two sides of this, I think. One, association with the name of Jesus means suffering.
Christine: Mm.
David: But it also means peace.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And y- a lot of times in pretty much every area of the world where his rule and reign has been established, it's gone in both seasons.
Christine: Yes.
David: It's walked through seasons of persecution in order to see him enthroned over the established powers and s- and evil in that area. But then he ushers in, through his reign, a time of peace and flourishing for his people-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... which often then turns into another season of persecution. But it is sweet to see this in Jerusalem happening after so much persecution and so much death and, and evil, that this time of peace has come. Why? Because people are bowing to the Davidic King. The-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... this one that Saul was seeking to kill-
Christine: Yeah, and that-
David: ... now has ruled over him.
Christine: And this is the first time church appears in Acts.
David: Oh, really?
Christine: Yeah.
David: That's cool.
Christine: Yeah, so-
David: I wonder why. Any thoughts there?
Christine: The church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. Well-
David: Oh! I have a thought.
Christine: Go for it.
David: Oh, I was just thinking of the word community and the fellowship.
Christine: Yeah, the assembly.
David: Right, the assembly is... Th- these are- this is, like, a united word.
Christine: Yeah.
David: This thing where we, oh, we come together.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Which is something-
Christine: That's right
David: ... you do whenever there's peace and unity-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... and there's not fighting and division. There's now an assembly, there's now a fellowship, there's now a church.
Christine: Mm-hmm, yeah.
David: Special.
Christine: That's really good.
David: Mm.
Christine: Yeah. What does it mean... Genuine open-ended question, 'cause-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... I just, I found it fascinating that these two were what the church was living in, in the d- in this time of peace, and it was the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit. What does it mean to live in fear and comfort?
David: Wow.
Christine: Fear of the Lord and comfort of the Holy Spirit?
David: Such a good question. Yeah, I don't know. I, I, I do know that apparently those aren't contradicting terms.
Christine: Yeah.
David: So we know that.
Christine: Uh-huh.
David: And we know that there's this, this fear of the Lord, this, this reverent service of the enthroned Jesus, but also this wise living that comes out of it.
Christine: Oh, wise living, like-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... Solomon in Proverbs?
David: Oh, my, [chuckles] yes.
Christine: [chuckles] You said it, not me.
David: I... Yeah, but it is true.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It's like we, we've had these Solomonic themes that we've talked about. The wisdom of Christ has now gone to the ends of the earth, and now the fear of the Lord is reigning among his people, because the pursuit of wisdom or the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Christine: Okay, wait a minute. [chuckles] See, this is why I asked it, 'cause I didn't know where this would be going, but-
David: I didn't either. [chuckles]
Christine: But, well, here we are. Um, you mentioned the kingdom spreading and God building up his church-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... in this fear of the Lord, which is wisdom. Well, how did God build the world?
David: Yes.
Christine: In wisdom.
David: In wisdom, and through whom? The Word and His Spirit-
Christine: The Word
David: ... that hovered over the face of the waters and brought order to chaos.
Christine: Oh, my.
David: And so He's bringing His wisdom, His rule and reign in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the ends of the earth, and He's ordering things through the power of new creation vested in His people. And so through wisdom-... and the righteous rule of His people empowered by His Spirit. He's bringing a new world order to the chaos of the world around him. So this is like, m- yeah!
Christine: Okay, that's beautiful. [chuckles]
David: That's pretty cool. I didn't know we'd get there, but that's pretty special.
Christine: Well, I, I saw those next to each other, and I was like, "Okay, I don't typically put fear and comfort together."
David: Mm.
Christine: I can fit comfort into, you know, the ecosystem of peace, but where does-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... fear fit in? And fear of the Lord, comfort of the Holy Spirit, we're talking about-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... the same God here.
David: And what does it lead to? It leads to, "it increased in numbers." It was fruitful and multiplied, which is what-
Christine: And after it was built up-
David: Right
Christine: ... it was put up in order, built up, and then-
David: This is Eden again.
Christine: Okay, yeah. Okay, we got that thing. [chuckles]
David: Through wisdom and... Yeah, we got there, so [chuckles] yeah, through the wisdom and the Spirit, God has remade Eden, and it is being fruitful and multiplying and covering the world with a new Spirit-empowered kingdom. That's so cool!
Christine: Wow. [laughing]
David: [laughing] Well, there you go.
Christine: Oh, ask questions about the Bible, Jason.
David: Yeah!
Christine: That's-
David: Oh, how fun.
Christine: Wow.
David: Well, thank you.
Christine: Yeah, I did not know why he was concluding that way, and I'm sure there's, I mean-
David: I'm sure there's more
Christine: ... we barely scratched the surface.
David: Yeah.
Christine: But that's really cool.
David: That's cool.
Christine: I want, I want to live in that world.
David: Yeah. Well, next week, I think we're going to be looking at the gospel going out to the Gentiles in a new way in Acts 10, which will be very exciting.
Christine: Yeah, I guess if you thought that Saul turning was incredible—
David: How about a Roman centurion?
Christine: How about a Roman centurion? That's... Those unclean people, right?
David: Yeah, this isn't even somebody who was familiar with... You know, he's not a Pharisee of Pharisees. He's a Gentile of Gentiles.
Christine: He is, very much so.
David: Yeah, and it's gonna be cool. So we're gonna look at that, and we're gonna look at the sheet of animals, and making things clean, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit before baptism, and whatever wets your whistle. Come on in, and we'll have a great drink together. It's gonna be fun. So thank you guys so much for coming to Damascus with us. It's been awesome. We will see you next time in the household of Cornelius. [upbeat music]
Christine: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
