Intro: [instrumental music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right, welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. We are really glad to have you guys here with us today. It's gonna be-
Seth: Talk about sin.
David: Oh, what a bummer. Talking about sin.
Seth: All the sin.
David: All the sin, because we're in Genesis. We just did Genesis 1 and 2 with creation, and now we're in the infamous or the famous... I don't really know how to use infamous correctly.
Seth: Infamous is when it's bad.
David: Is it?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, so I did it right.
Seth: You did it right.
David: Yay.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: So the infamous Genesis chapter 3.
Seth: Where the world falls.
David: Where the wor- where, where Adam and Eve fall, and the world is fallen under a curse.
Seth: Goes with it.
David: And the world goes with it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we didn't wanna just do an isolated chapter 3. We wanted to kind of-
Seth: 3, 4, 5
David: ... 4, 5, because it's, they're really tied together, and 3 usually gets treated as its own little thing. And I think it's helpful to watch the aftereffects of sin, 'cause you kinda see the curses God gives Adam and Eve start to play out.
Seth: They do.
David: And so we're gonna look at it, but we are gonna start in chapter 3.
Seth: Chapter 3.
David: So Seth, what happens in Genesis chapter 3?
Seth: Well, there was a serpent who was more crafty than all the other creatures of the forest.
David: Was it a python?
Seth: I don't know.
David: I don't know either.
Seth: Boa?
David: A boa. Oh, maybe.
Seth: Why is there a talking animal?
David: Yeah, that's the, that's, that's the question.
Seth: In the Garden of Eden. [laughs]
David: That's a good question. [laughs] That's a really good question.
Seth: [laughs] I feel like that's the first question-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... I actually have when-
David: I know
Seth: ... I read this, is why is there a talking animal?
David: Yep. So, uh, is, is, am I, am I supposed to answer that? [laughs]
Seth: You're supposed to answer that. [laughs]
David: I can give you opinions that exist out there.
Seth: Give me the three best opinions.
David: Oh, the three? Okay.
Seth: Or just the one.
David: I don't know. I'll give you the ones I know.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So, um, one, people have talked about how this is a, the physical form of a divine being, meaning like the accuser, the, you know, the Satan, the Satan. Ha-satan.
Seth: Ha-satan.
David: The Satan. Um, and so he took up some kind of ph- ph- physical form. Is, is he able to do that? I didn't know. The Bible doesn't tell us he's able to do that, but...
Seth: Maybe that's him.
David: Maybe that's him.
Seth: So that-
David: So that's one
Seth: ... already more questions than just-
David: I know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... well, did this, did Satan already fall before in the good world?
David: Yeah, then there's that whole thing.
Seth: Okay.
David: But, uh, and then there's, uh, people have talked about possession of animals. [laughs]
Seth: Oh.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I had never thought about that.
David: Right? That, that an animal was possessed to be able to talk. I mean, think about Balaam was possessed by the-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... uh, uh, by a good spirit to speak to Balaam.
Seth: Okay.
David: So animal's talking, and we're not, I mean, we're weird, but we're like, "Oh, that fits in my worldview-"
Seth: Right
David: ... "that God could make an animal talk." So if we believe that there are, we talked a little bit about the divine council last week. If we believe that there are all these other lesser elohim, all these other, you know, demons, angels, there's this other realm, is it impossible for one to embody a serpent? Like God in an, in a spirit em- embodied, uh, uh, Ba- uh, you know, Balaam's donkey.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Probably not. So-
Seth: I mean, God is walking in the cool of the day. He's obviously embo- like embodied-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in some sense.
David: Yep. So those lines are being blurred in this space, which is probably the point, that this Eden is not like Earth. It's somewhere in between Heaven and Earth, because God's walking in it, and there are-
Seth: Spiritual beings
David: ... spiritual beings talking. And so that's the thir- that's what I've heard is the third option. So I did ha- I did find three.
Seth: You found three.
David: Is, um, that this is a different plane of existence other than-
Seth: Oh
David: ... what we know as fallen planet Earth. It's planet Earth, but it was paradiso. It was the, you know, it was the paradise. And so, um, in this kind of planet Earth, uh, there was talking animals, and you lived with the spirit, all the spiritual beings, and God was there, and it's this very different space than we inhabit now. So I don't know which of those is-
Seth: Best
David: ... best.
Seth: But I think what I hear in all three of those is that the Garden of Eden is this temple in which God's presence dwells, and where spiritual beings dwell-
David: Yep
Seth: ... where humans who are sons of God dwell.
David: Right.
Seth: And really, the point-
David: Which is a spiritual being term
Seth: ... which is a spiritual being term.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so it's like, it's, the point may not be, why is Satan talking? It's-
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: ... [laughs] it's like, why, or why is a snake talking?
David: Right.
Seth: It's there is conflict.
David: Yes.
Seth: This like, suddenly, I was reading Karen Swallow Prior's book, uh, it's called On Reading Well.
David: Oh, yeah. Right.
Seth: And she said that there is no story without a fall.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so like, I think the point here, regardless of how is he talking, it's like there's conflict coming.
David: Right, right.
Seth: There's somebody coming, an adversary-
David: Yes
Seth: ... someone who hates God and his intentions.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's gonna see if he can subvert God's plans.
David: Yes. Lots of, lots of Biblical writers have gone back and reflected on this story, and none of them are concerned with why there's a snake talking.
Seth: [laughs] So we spent five minutes on nothing. [laughs]
David: Yeah, so, so there you go. Well, I think it's probably what, what a lot of people think. You, I, I think it.
Seth: Right.
David: You think it, so, like, we should at least talk about it. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, it's a barrier to understanding the Book of Genesis.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like, why is there a talking snake?
David: It doesn't really help us understand this text, but it helps us jump over a hurdle to get into the text for a lot of people.
Seth: Again, Genesis is not a myth in the sense it is false.
David: Right.
Seth: But it wants to communicate to us truth about reality.
David: Yes.
Seth: And one of the truths of Christian reality is that Christian reality is embattled between God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who's all-powerful and omnipotent, and these lesser beings who hate God's will-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and God's ways. And we're being introduced to that character-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the serpent. Like, conflict.
David: Man, that's really helpful, actually, because think about what we talked about last week with Genesis 1 and 2, and we talked about how there's all these other creation myths happening, and the world was always made from a failure of one of the gods.
Seth: Right, right, right, right, right.
David: Right? Or, or, or some kind of, or like a slaying of one of the gods. But here, we have, there is this-... lesser Elohim, this other spiritual being, and it's its fault. [laughs] It's, it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he's the one responsible for bringing something broken into the world, like-
Seth: And he takes the form of a created thing.
David: Right.
Seth: So the things that crawl upon the ground.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like we've already, we've already established that God creates the things that crawl-
David: Yes
Seth: ... along the ground.
David: Right. Oh, that's right.
Seth: And so what is this false, what is this Satan doing?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What is this accuser doing? He, taking the form of, of something created.
David: Right.
Seth: Obviously lesser than the God-
David: Lesser than God
Seth: ... that created-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... all things.
David: Yeah. God's putting all things under his feet. Yeah.
Seth: So if there is a temptation in the world, if there is evil coming towards you, it isn't from God.
David: Right, James tells us that. Yep.
Seth: It is from a create- something within the created-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... order.
David: Yeah. That's helpful.
Seth: That is helpful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That, uh, that, it's helpful for me even thinking through.
David: Right. And so we have this serpent, and, um, you, you kind of started it all off, the serpent was more crafty than, uh, than all the other creatures that the Lord God had made. Is that what it says?
Seth: Any other beast of the field-
David: Beast of the field
Seth: ... that the Lord God had made.
David: Um, so that word crafty sets up the genre and the tone for what we're about to encounter. Um, this word crafty is kind of-
Seth: Sneaky?
David: ... is snake- Yeah. Well, you see even there, like we have this like pejorative, negative connotation to this word, when actually it's used all throughout the Old Testament in really positive ways to reference wisdom.
Seth: Oh.
David: And so it's not a negative term, so it w- but like-
Seth: The wisest
David: ... it was the wisest, yeah, it was very wise. And like it used its wisdom in crafty ways, but we don't like, we need to understand that what the author of Genesis is setting up here for us is a wisdom narrative. And we know that-
Seth: Oh
David: ... because right after this, where, where is Eve going to talk to this thing? At the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She's on a quest for wisdom. She's on a quest for knowledge.
Seth: What?
David: Yeah. And so-
Seth: It's just like, I'm like already thinking like there's a wisdom of the world, there's a wisdom of God. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is, [laughs] is Eve really fearing the Lord in this moment?
David: No. No, she is not.
Seth: Fascinating. I haven't, I haven't thought about this as the genre of wisdom.
David: Yes. Yeah. And so, um, so she comes, and, and what's the topic? Knowledge and wisdom. Like what do you know?
Seth: Oh.
David: Right? And so, so she's like, uh, let's see. Where's the, where does the conversation start? What verse?
Seth: It, it's verse one.
David: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Oh my goodness, you're right. I was like, turn the page. [laughs]
Seth: "Did God actually say you shall not eat of any tree in the garden?"
David: So she's, he, go- the, right, right away, the serpent is questioning the information that Eve has received from Yahweh.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, right out the gate.
Seth: And what's, it's, uh, it's already a lie.
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: It's like it's not even, so like God didn't say-
David: No, he didn't say you can't eat from any, any tree
Seth: ... you can't eat from one tree.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So like he snuck in a lie-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in his questioning of God.
David: He's wise.
Seth: He's crafty.
David: He's a smart dude.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, and so Eve catches it, thank goodness, right? And she says, "No, no, no, we may eat, uh, of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said you shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die." Now she adds something in there, doesn't she?
Seth: She does.
David: 'Cause God never said, "Don't touch it."
Seth: Right.
David: He said, "Don't eat from it."
Seth: You'll, if you eat from it, you'll die.
David: Right.
Seth: But not if you don't touch it.
David: Right. So she's kind of, what, what, what I've heard authors talk about, commentators talk about is that she is communicating like an angst here. That she's like, "Man, we can't eat it. We can't even touch it." Like, it's ki- she's escalating the command-
Seth: Oh
David: ... that it's, the command is more burdensome than it actually was, that it was a bigger deal than God actually intended it to be.
Seth: And she's frustrated by it.
David: And she's frustrated by it.
Seth: Oh, I wouldn't-
David: I mean, 'cause, 'cause think about it
Seth: ... I would, I kind of read it the other way.
David: Mm.
Seth: I was, I was thinking like, um, Eve recognizing all the good things that God has given her-
David: Right
Seth: ... wants to keep away from the thing that God said. So like, "Okay, we're not even gonna touch the tree."
David: Oh, right.
Seth: "We're not even gonna look at it."
David: Yep.
Seth: So it's like, and when sh- the Satan, Satan talks to her, he's like, "No, we don't, can't eat from it, and so we don't even touch it." And then he said don't touch it, and they just assume their rule was God's rules too.
David: Right.
Seth: That's what I always thought of.
David: The legalistic version.
Seth: The legalistic version.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] Um, I think I would probably, by the way the conversation spirals, I would feel like with just one more nudge from the serpent, she's over the edge and eaten the fruit. I feel like it's probably the one where she's frustrated. 'Cause I also, we're also not told how many conversations she's had with this serpent before, 'cause we, it kinda picks up mid-conversation.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: And so like that's a literary tool to show us that this is not the beginning of the conversation.
Seth: Maybe this is a su- sustained dialogue-
David: That's right. Yeah
Seth: ... over days.
David: Which is like, what, uh, have you read Perelandra?
Seth: I have.
David: Yes.
Seth: C.S. Lewis's-
David: Oh
Seth: ... Space Trilogy.
David: So good. It's just day after day after day of this demon torturing and tempting and, like, chipping away at the wisdom of this new Eve on Venus. [laughs] And like-
Seth: It's a great book.
David: It's a great book. Go read it. [laughs]
Seth: It may sound crazy-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but it's so good.
David: It's real good. So yeah, we don't know. Uh, I think that's what Lewis's point was there, was that it probably was this long sustained argument. I mean, why was she even at the tree to begin with? You know, like, it's like, well, we're not even supposed to touch it. If she was like, "I'm just gonna stay away from it," if that's what she meant, why was she there talking to the tree, [laughs] to the serpent, like if she was this legalist?
Seth: Already I'm thinking, like, how much more pastorally helpful that is.
David: [laughs]
Seth: The, the devil's not gonna come to you and say, "God's a liar."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "You ready to, you ready to battle?"
David: Right.
Seth: It's probably gonna be the slow-
David: Yep
Seth: ... sustained dripping-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... over years-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of eroding your trust in God and His wisdom and His word-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that will finally lead you to do something. People don't become adulterers overnight.
David: Right.
Seth: It's, takes years.
David: It takes years, yeah. And so we don't know how long this took. And so, um, so Eve kind of catches his lie that adds on this extra burdensome command that they can't touch it, and then the serpent says to the woman, "You won't die." And so now he's questioning another part of God's word, and he says, "For God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened." That's a wisdom word, right? You're gonna see things as they really are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So, like, there's the, there's the temptation.
Seth: Do you wanna be like God?
David: You wanna be like God?
Seth: Do you wanna know good and evil?
David: Yep.
Seth: I even heard it said, like, defining good and evil for ourselves.
David: I've heard that too. I think i, I... Here's my, here's my opinion on it. I think that Eve was mostly well-intentioned here. I think that, um, they were in this covenant relationship with God.
Seth: She was angsty and well-intentioned?
David: So, yeah, I'll get there. So she, she's mostly well-intentioned. She is wanting to obey God better, and, and so they're in this relationship covenant with God in the garden, and God said, "Do these things. Don't do this one thing, and it'll go well with you. You'll live in this garden. You'll, you'll tend it. It'll cover the face of the earth." And Eve wants to know what... Like, but that's all they know, right? That's the only-
Seth: Right
David: ... word that they've been given, and Eve wants to know more, and she wants to know good and evil. Why would you wanna know good and evil? Well, if you're in this relationship with God, and he's walking around in the cool of the day, maybe you want to obey him better and avoid the things that he hates more. Like, maybe that was her goal, was, "Oh, if I know the mind of God and could actually obey him fully and stay away from the things that he hates fully, then the blessing will be mine to the fullest. I'll be like God, and I can earn it myself. Like, I can, I can line it all up, figure it all out, and get it done." And so that's, uh-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... that's, I think that's, that's how, I think that's how Sellhammmer has talked about it, um-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... and I, I kinda-
Seth: But regardless-
David: Yep
Seth: ... what I think's most fascinating about this is God never gives us a reason why.
David: No, it kinda is pretty open-ended
Seth: For the tree. Like, and I think that's part of the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... mystery of the, of the fall narrative is that-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... we're never to- told why we're not supposed to eat of the tree, just that we're not supposed to. And really, it's an exercise in trust.
David: Yes.
Seth: Will you trust God at his word?
David: Right.
Seth: When he says, "Don't do it," will you trust him enough not to do it, even if it looks good?
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause I mean, the next verse is, "So the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was to be desired to make one wise." So it's like, well, what's wrong here?
David: Right.
Seth: This tree is, looks like all the other ones. It seems as if it'll give me something I don't already have. Why shouldn't I pursue it?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the only command we're told is, "Just don't do it."
David: Right.
Seth: And so already I'm like, there's so many laws within scripture, so many commands that I've, like, in my own life that I know that I just have to trust-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that are better for me.
David: Right.
Seth: Don't obsess about what other people have.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, d- don't be envious.
David: Right.
Seth: Just don't do it.
David: Yep.
Seth: Why? Becau-
David: I don't... He doesn't say
Seth: He doesn't say just-
David: Yeah. Right
Seth: ... just don't do it. Don't have sex with anybody except your spouse. Why? 'Cause that's the way God designed the world.
David: Right.
Seth: God designed the world not to eat this tree and to only have sex with your wife.
David: Right, and, and-
Seth: Just don't do it
David: ... it bears out, doesn't it? Like, whenever you covet, what happens? You end up, like, torturing yourself and f- feeling discontent and running after things that ultimately don't satisfy. Whenever you cheat on your wife, your family, uh, dissolves and deteriorates, and things break apart, and you lose everything you have. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it, it's woven in the fabric of the... We, we can see the, the reasons, even, even if they're not given.
Seth: They're not given.
David: Right.
Seth: That's right. You can see the reasons, like-
David: 'Cause we're about to see some of the reasons here
Seth: ... the, the, everything goes to pot-
David: Right
Seth: ... very quickly.
David: [laughs] Yes.
Seth: But I think part of it's, like, I think for Christians and for all people, at the end of the day, the Lord said something, and you're gonna have to just obey.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, like, that's the central tension, I think, of the fall narrative is God said something, and he doesn't give it a reason, and do you trust him?
David: Mm.
Seth: Will you trust the God who's given you everything-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be good in the commands that he's given you, even if you don't have a reason?
David: I think it's also what we see here is the reason, I think he does give us some kind of a reason.
Seth: Okay.
David: Not, not... But, but he doesn't give us a reason not to eat it, right, like what you're saying.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: I, I think I agree with that. He says, "Don't eat that tree. Enjoy everything else I've given you." Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I've given you every tree, so go enjoy those. Not that one-
Seth: Right
David: ... but everything else." And so Eve is going, "I have everything at my disposal, and it's all so good, but is God holding out on me?"
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: That's always, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God is a joy- killjoy.
David: Yes, exactly.
Seth: God is withholding.
David: Right.
Seth: That's alway- That's the sin of the fall is-
David: Yep
Seth: ... believing that God's withholding.
David: That's right. Oh, so there's a, there's something better maybe? Like, maybe if I did have sex with a woman who's not my wife, I would finally find contentment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh, hmm. Right, right? Like-
Seth: Maybe if I did get drunk-
David: Right
Seth: ... that would actually help me feel, have more fun on the weekend.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, oh, maybe there's something that God told me not to do that's actually preventing me from experiencing more joy.
David: He's holding out on me.
Seth: He's witholding, he's holding out on me.
David: Yep.
Seth: I feel like that automatically humanizes the fall narrative-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... 'cause it's like we're talking about talking snakes and trees.
David: And magic fruit. [laughs]
Seth: And I'm like, what on earth am I reading?
David: Right.
Seth: But as soon as you say, um, "Do you trust God when he says not to do something and when he doesn't give you a reason?"
David: Right.
Seth: I'm like, uh-
David: Uh [laughs]
Seth: ... maybe not. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: And I think that's what you're s- uh-
David: Yep
Seth: ... wisdom literature, you're supposed to meditate on-
David: That's right
Seth: ... think about, place yourself in the middle of. I'm like, are there laws in which right now that I'm thinking that God may be holding out on me some greater joy or greater pleasure just because he wants to, and he's that kind of God?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Is there a doubt in my mind that God is good to me, and I could receive more if I try to grab it by my own power or my own effort or my own deciding what-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... to do in these moments?
David: And that's, and that's the sin. That's where, that's what sin is, is, is God provides the good.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? All good comes from God, and so sin is the attempt to get that good apart from God, that like, "I want satisfaction." Well, God has provided a means in his grace for me to be satisfied through a multiplicity of things that he allows and, like, commands me to enjoy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But there's this one thing, like, let's say, right, sexual adultery.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'm like, "Mm, but really if I want satisfaction with that thing." And so when I go beyond the bounds of what God has provided to provide good for myself, that's me trying to be God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because God isn't... I mean, that's what we see in Genesis 1 and 2. What is God doing? He's making things that are good, right? He makes stuff, it's good. He makes stuff, it's good. And then, uh, Eve wants something good for herself. Like, she's trying to make something good for herself. She's trying to repeat what God did in Genesis 1 and 2 here at the tree.
Seth: I was just thinking of Isaiah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: In Isaiah 50, he says, "Woe to those who call evil good-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and good evil."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that theme is picked up throughout the Bible.
David: Yep.
Seth: This idea that whatever society you're in will decide to call the things that are good evil, and suddenly the evil good. I think that goes back to, like, defining good and evil for ourselves a little bit-
David: Right
Seth: ... to a certain extent. But that is, like, the underlying motivation, calling things that God has said are not good for us actually what will give us best, most joy.
David: Right. Right, right. I see what you're saying. Yep.
Seth: And, and the things that God has already provided us aren't good enough.
David: Aren't, uh, aren't really that good.
Seth: Aren't really that good.
David: Right. Yes, I like that.
Seth: And so, like, the, the tension-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the Christian life is will you trust the things that God has already given you?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Or will you trust what you can purchase for yourself? [gentle music] So when confronted with that choice, to, uh, either trust what God has already provided or think that God is withholding on them-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they choose to believe God is withholding, and they eat the fruit in hoping to gain the knowledge of good and evil.
David: Right.
Seth: And a- and all of a sudden, they get what they thought they wanted.
David: Right.
Seth: Their eyes were opened.
David: Are opened. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: But they're open to something-
David: They don't like what they see. [laughs]
Seth: They don't like what they see. [laughs] And they knew they were naked.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's the first thing.
David: Uh, which was shame in, like, the idea of nakedness in Hebrew conveys this idea of shame, uh, which is really interesting that a l- a word would get tied up into a story.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, anyway, we can go, uh-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... I don't wanna go into that, but yeah, they, they were ashamed.
Seth: They were ashamed.
David: And we hear that later.
Seth: And they try to-
David: They were ashamed of their nakedness
Seth: ... cover their shame-
David: That's right
Seth: ... by clothing themselves.
David: Yep.
Seth: And, uh, then-
David: And then
Seth: ... they hear the footsteps of God.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: [laughs] How-
David: Which, which, which used to be sweet music to their ears.
Seth: Walking in the cool of the day-
David: That's right
Seth: ... casually chatting with God.
David: It was the best part of the day.
Seth: And now it's just that ominous footfall in the horror movie.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the floorboards creaking.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Like, God is coming.
David: And they do what everyone does in the horror movies, they hide in the closet.
Seth: They hide in the closet. [laughs]
David: They go for the, behind some bushes. [laughs]
Seth: They hide themselves from the presence of God, and the Lord called them, and he said, "Where are you?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that's gonna become important when we talk about Cain and Abel in a second.
David: Right.
Seth: But, "Where are you?"
David: Yep. And their response is to come out ashamed and start making excuses for themselves.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? They s- uh, you know, Adam just starts hurling different excuses. Um, he, he, like, blames his wife. He's like, "Oh, this woman you gave me, it was her fault. She gave it to me," and all this other stuff.
Seth: And the woman's like, "No, it's the snake's fault."
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Everyone's deflecting and trying to pass blame. Um, and then, um, at the end of chapter three, we get this-
Seth: And how classic
David: ... classic. Oh, classic
Seth: ... how classic of sin to s- we, we keep talking about this hypothetical adulterous husband-
David: Hmm. Right
Seth: ... who, um, sleeps with somebody not his wife.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And then what's the first thing he does? "Well, it's my fault. My wife wasn't loving enough to me."
David: That's right.
Seth: "She wasn't sexually available to me."
David: That's right.
Seth: "She wasn't-"
David: Her libido wasn't, yeah.
Seth: "She wasn't as kind. She didn't respect me."
David: Right.
Seth: "It's no wonder I fell into the hands of the, of whoever."
David: Right.
Seth: "It's no wonder that I wanted this."
David: Yep.
Seth: It's not Rom-
David: It's somebody else's fault
Seth: ... it's somebody else's fault.
David: Right.
Seth: And then the wife responds with, "But my husband was emotionally distant."
David: Yes.
Seth: "It's his fault."
David: Yep.
Seth: "If he w- you know, if..." And then, or the fa- "Well, my, my father just loved me."
David: Right, or, or-
Seth: And the-
David: ... "Our children just demand too much of, of our attention."
Seth: Right.
David: "We just can't." Like, it is always shifting.
Seth: Yeah, it's like, it's just the same, it's the same story-
David: Yep
Seth: ... played out in every situation when somebody chooses sin over what God has already provided.
David: Yep.
Seth: That same deflection will always happen.
David: Yeah, and we also see three core emotions that I think constantly are, uh, that are a result of sin. We see fear, right? They, they're, they were afraid, so they jumped in the bush. We see, um, we see guilt. They knew they were guilty, so they're deflecting that guilt to others, and then they, it says that they were ashamed. So guilt, shame, and fear, I think are constantly a part of our, um, experience with sin.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I bring that up just to say, like, like, let's have a felt needs moment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs] And let's go, like, don't you feel, [laughs] feel fear-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... guilt, and shame in your life?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, like, when you sin? That's what Jesus is answering. Like, that's the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... core felt need. When you're jumping in be- behind the bushes, you're deflecting your, uh, blame, you, you're trying to cover up your shame, this is the situation that Jesus is coming to heal. And I just think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's good news to take a second and just, like, say that.
Seth: And I think what's fascinating here, I think I wanna just drill down.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So in that moment, we f- when we feel fear, shame, and guilt, God's r- first response is to drill down on it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and provide the curse.
David: Mm.
Seth: He curses those feelings, and he says, "That's right. You should feel that way, and here's what's gonna happen because of what you've done."
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause the first thing he does isn't say, "It's gonna be okay."
David: "It's gonna be fine."
Seth: "I forgive you."
David: Right.
Seth: He says, "Let me curse you."
David: Wow.
Seth: That's the first thing that happens. And actually, but even there, there's a little bit of mercy because he actually curses the snake first.
David: Yes.
Seth: He curses the one who started the temptation.
David: Right.
Seth: Which will actually play out later in the Bible-
David: Yep
Seth: ... where it says, "Cursed are you teachers who would dare, uh, lead astray one of these little ones."
David: Oh, right.
Seth: "A millstone be cast around your neck and thrown into the bottom of the ocean."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, some of the harshest words God has with those who teach deception.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And you actually see that on page-
David: Wow
Seth: ... two of the Bible.
David: Wow.
Seth: Which I think is interesting. I didn't think about that until this moment.
David: Oh, did you not realize that?
Seth: No, [laughs] I was just like-
David: Yeah, I've never thought of that. Yeah, that's, that... But I think that's really spot on.
Seth: But so he, he, he curses-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... yeah, emasculate the Judaizers.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's, consistently, the teachers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of deception are always the ones who receive the harshest condemnation.
David: Right.
Seth: That's true here in the first pages of the Bible.
David: Mm.
Seth: He curses the snake, and then he curses people.
David: Yep, and he starts what? Is it man first or woman first?
Seth: He kinda, the, uh-
David: Do they blend together?
Seth: They blend together in the first one. He s-
David: Oh, there's a... Yeah, in 16, to the woman, he said-
Seth: But in 15, he said-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... "I'll put..." Oh, yeah, that's, uh, yeah, in 16, he-
David: He's still kinda talking to the snake here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? "I will put," which is, this is probably the most important verse in the Old Testament. [laughs]
Seth: Let's come back to it.
David: Okay. So let's, let's get the-
Seth: Well, actually, no, it's not.
David: It's not? [laughs]
Seth: Because think about that. I, I, I'm, I'm wrong. I said the first thing he does is curse the people, but he doesn't. He curses the snake and then offers hope.
David: Oh.
Seth: In verse 15.
David: Right.
Seth: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your offspring, the snake's offspring-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and her offspring."
David: The woman's offspring, yep.
Seth: The woman's offspring, "And he, the woman's son-
David: Son, the promised seed
Seth: ... will bruise the head of the serpent. And you, the serpent's [laughs] seed, will only bruise his heel."
David: Right.
Seth: So that's fascinating.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So in the middle of guilt, shame, and fear, G- the first thing God does is he curses-
David: Curses s- sin and its source
Seth: ... curses the source of sin-
David: Right
Seth: ... and then promises hope.
David: Mm-hmm. For how he's going to defeat sin, and even do so through those who sinned.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's through Eve's children-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that, or child, it's singular, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: That, that he's gonna bring this hope. Yeah, that is amazing.
Seth: And only then after offering-
David: The hope
Seth: ... hope-
David: Right
Seth: ... does he curse Adam and Eve.
David: Right.
Seth: I haven't thought of that.
David: Because we would d- we would utterly despair if it was curse, no hope.
Seth: Right.
David: Or even, like, if we had to hear the hope after the curse [laughs].
Seth: Right.
David: We'd be like, "How am I gonna get through this [laughs] if it wasn't for the hope?" Yeah. And so this hope, let's, let's talk about this, 'cause this is, um, the, the, the $12 word.
Seth: $12.
David: I was gonna say $10. It's worth a little bit more.
Seth: 'Cause it's in Latin.
David: It's 'cause, I don't, I don't know. Is the, is that the proto-euangelion?
Seth: Proto-euangelion.
David: Yep. The, the first gospel [laughs] is the, is, is what this is. This is what the nerds-
Seth: Proto first, euangelion
David: ... proto first, euangelion. Gospel.
Seth: Gospel.
David: And so this is the first gospel. It's the first time the gospel is explicitly promised in scripture, that one of Eve's offspring, which-
Seth: 14 verses.
David: What? Oh, 14 verses.
Seth: It only takes 14 verses-
David: Yeah, 14 verses
Seth: ... for the gospel to show up.
David: In chapter three.
Seth: In chapter three. But, I mean, the first two-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... it's all good news.
David: Oh, right, right, right.
Seth: The world is good, the world is good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're enjoying God's presence. Everything's amazing. Fall happens in seven verses.
David: Yeah, it's like-
Seth: Curse
David: ... it's like [laughs] it took-
Seth: And then-
David: ... like four verses or something. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] It takes four verses.
David: Between fall and promise.
Seth: It's like, it's so good.
David: It's so good.
Seth: Like, it's so, anyway, I just want to like-
David: And so, so he promises that, um, that the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman, their descendants, are not going to coincide. He's going to separate them, put enmity between them. So not only are they gonna be separated, they're gonna be enemies. And so, um, the seed of the serpent are going to be the children of sin, and we're going to meet them really soon in the, in the Genesis narrative. But then there's also going to be this sustained single line from Eve, and this is going to be the line from which this person will come, this ultimate descendant will come, who will crush the head of the snake-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and who will, um, at, at the cost of having his heel bruised-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and who will defeat sin and restore all that was just broken.
Seth: Think about Adam and Eve in that moment. We're naked, we're ashamed, we're hiding from God. God, where are you?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They respond, like, deflecting, like, "I don't know. It was her fault, it was her fault-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it was her fault. The snake told me to do it." And then God just stops. He says, "Okay, I'm gonna curse the snake-
David: Right
Seth: ... and I'm gonna give you hope."
David: Oh, my gosh. [laughs]
Seth: And then could you ima- I, if I was Adam, and in a sense I am, I would be like, "Am I getting away with this?"
David: Right. Oh, my goodness, yeah.
Seth: Is this like, is, like, is nothing bad gonna happen?
David: Did, did, did my deflection work?
Seth: My, my son is gonna come, and he's gonna, he's gonna destroy the thing that just convinced my wife-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who convinced me. Like, is it all gonna be over?
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: And then-
David: Yeah, if you, if you didn't just know the end of the story-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... you'd be like, "Oh, it was, it was the snake's fault." And then he's like, "Okay, great, I'm cursing the snake, and one of your offspring's gonna kill the snake."
Seth: Oh, we did it.
David: We did it. [laughs]
Seth: We got out of sin. [laughs]
David: And then God's like, "Well, no."
Seth: To the woman he said it.
David: To the woman he says, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing. In pain you shall bring forth children, and your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
Seth: Yeah. And then to Adam, he, um, says that, "The ground will be cursed because of you."
David: Right.
Seth: And I think what he's getting at here is the thing that defines womanhood-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is be, and it's-
David: Well, and it's-
Seth: ... the ability to reproduce
David: ... well, and it was be fruitful and multiply-
Seth: Right
David: ... was the command given to them. It was supposed to be this good thing.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: And he's like, "That's gonna be hard. That good thing is still gonna happen, but it's gonna be even harder."
Seth: That's better to understand.
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause I've heard it's talked about, like, the, like, reproduction is kind of the center of being a woman.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And working is kind of the center of a man.
David: It's probably an anachronistic reading of gender roles into Genesis.
Seth: Potentially.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're probably right. So I think that's better.
David: Right.
Seth: Be fruitful and multiply.
David: Yep, was this good promise.
Seth: They both ha- had the command-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to do so, one through childbearing-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and one through working-
David: Working
Seth: ... and tilling and tilling the ground.
David: Yep.
Seth: And both of that command, the command to be fruitful and multiply is crippled-
David: Yes, right
Seth: ... under the sin-
David: Yep
Seth: ... uh, that they, they, they committed.
David: Yep, so you're not going to be able to do the thing now that I wanted you to do, and even you're gonna toil in it. This thing that should've brought you joy to live in this covenant where you're fruitful, multiplying, you're tilling the land and working it, is now gonna be toilsome for you. The blessing has become the curse.
Seth: And the thing from which you became alive, dust-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is the thing to which you will return.
David: You will return, yeah.
Seth: Like, you-
David: Absolutely. And the dominion thing gets, gets thwarted too. He's like, "You'll have dominion over all the beasts of the land and all the fish of the sea," right? But now something breaks, and now man has dominion over his wife. That wasn't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that wasn't before the fall. This was, this is after. He's like, "Oh, part of the curse is man ruling over woman."
Seth: There's, so there's this, like, power dynamics-
David: Yeah, exactly
Seth: ... that like [laughs] automatically entered in. Like, you're gonna have dysfunction in your relationship with, you're gonna have dysfunction in your relationship to the earth.
David: Yep.
Seth: You're gonna have dysfunction in your relationship to yourself as a childbearer.
David: Right.
Seth: You have dysfunction in a relationship to your work. You have dysfunction related to, uh, to you as humans and married beings.
David: Right.
Seth: Nothing in the world-
David: Is gonna work like it was supposed to
Seth: ... is, is gonna work like it was supposed to.
David: Right.
Seth: This is a really profound moment in the Bible.
David: Mm, yes. Yeah.
Seth: So, like, we, you, we, you should feel how heavy this is.
David: Right.
Seth: This will affect every story-
David: Every, every story
Seth: ... that you hear after this.
David: Yes.
Seth: Every story you hear after this will repeat the same narrative.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God is withholding from me.
David: Mm.
Seth: I can get what I want if I do it myself.
David: Right.
Seth: And what's gonna happen? Dysfunction in families, dysfunction between married people, dysfun- dysfunction between fathers and son-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... dysfunctions in nations, dysfunction between how I relate to politics-
David: Yep
Seth: ... how I relate to the world, how I relate to the ground. Everything-
David: ... repeats the same pattern over and over and over and over again. God's withholding, let me grab that land. Let me grab that woman-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
David: ... Dame David of Bathsheba.
Seth: Right.
David: Let me grab something that God has not already given me.
Seth: Yep.
David: And what happens? The same thing, more curse.
Seth: Yep. More pain, more suffering. Yep.
David: Even like, so like, they're about to be kicked out of the garden.
Seth: Right.
David: Israel continues to grab after idols and Gods that were not theirs.
Seth: Yep.
David: And what happens? They get kicked out of the promised land-
Seth: That's right
David: ... into exile.
Seth: Yep.
David: The story of the fall is repeated everywhere.
Seth: That's right.
David: It is the entire story of the Bible already said in the first three chapters.
Seth: Yes.
David: This repeats every single time.
Seth: That's absolutely right, and that's kinda the whole point, is that we can't break that cycle. Like, we, we are constantly going to repeat this. I think I've, I've, I've, I've heard people say, like, "Man, well, if I was in Eden, [laughs] I wouldn't have done it." You know, it's like, you-
David: Really?
Seth: ... you had that opportunity in your life.
David: Yeah, you've already made, you've already made those choices. [laughs]
Seth: Right, you've already made the choi- you've already probably decided at some point in time God wasn't giving you the best that he could-
David: Right
Seth: ... and that it'd be better if you tried to get something that God hasn't given you.
David: Right.
Seth: You probably made that decision already.
David: Probably made the decision. So like, no. [laughs]
Seth: No.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And you don't have Satan whispering in your ear, either in one conversation over the course of hundred... Actually, you do.
David: Yeah, you do.
Seth: You do have that.
David: Yes, you definitely do. [laughs]
Seth: You just don't have him physically-
David: In- [laughs]
Seth: ... in front of you as a magical snake.
David: Which is probably harder. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, 'cause now it's just your own internal dialogue-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... which feels really natural.
David: It does.
Seth: Doesn't feel like an enemy on the outside of you.
David: It's easy to justify.
Seth: It's like, yeah.
David: Okay, yeah. And so they, uh, they receive this curse, um, but there is kinda this bookend of hope.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, we have this hope of, um, Genesis 3:15, of the seed of the woman, and then now, uh, God kinda takes a look at their shoddily made leaf clothes and is like, "Uh, let's do something different," and he w- he kills an animal.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's the first instance of death in the Bible, uh, other than-
Seth: It's not the first incident of bloodshed.
David: Oh.
Seth: 'Cause he cuts Adam.
David: Oh, I guess so. I think I've al- I guess that makes sense.
Seth: So the first time blood is spilled is so far-
David: I think I've always viewed it, like, as like some kind of-
Seth: Right
David: ... magical-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... God's hand enters into his ribs like a-
Seth: And just, like, pulls it out-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like a ghost.
David: I think that's what all of my Bible story videos-
Seth: I think-
David: ... showed me in Sunday school. [laughs]
Seth: I think... No, no. I think the first time blood is shed is when God cut- cuts open Adam-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and removes his rib, and it's a symbol that God will purchase his bride by the blood of Adam.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so what does God do? What are we told in Ephesians 5? That Christ dies for his bride, the church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: How does he create husband... Like, how does he bring the church into his heavenly home? Through the death of the new Adam.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think we see the gospel, actually, when Adam is cut-
David: Wow
Seth: ... cut open back in-
David: That's cool
Seth: ... so we didn't talk about that last time, but.
David: Yeah. And so we do have more bloodshed here, then.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um, and I guess for the first death, but not the first-
Seth: First death
David: ... bloodshed.
Seth: Yeah, first, first death.
David: And so God kills an animal and makes clothing, proper clothing, for Adam and Eve.
Seth: He covers their shame.
David: And covers their shame wi- through bloodshed and death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which, now, if you kinda take all this together, um, there's this promised seed who's coming from Eve's line. I think it's Luke that starts with Eve, or Adam and Eve, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: In his, in his genealogy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, and he traces it down, and this promised seed, he says, is none other than Jesus, and what does Jesus do, right? He's the new Adam, the s- the son of Eve, who ends up, uh, crushing the head of sin by-
Seth: By
David: ... by taking the full brunt of it on the cross.
Seth: He dies on the cross.
David: Right. Sheds his blood.
Seth: His, his heel's only bruised because he resurrects from the dead.
David: That's right, yeah. [laughs] It looks like-
Seth: Satan-
David: ... a little bit more than a heel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to begin with. Yep.
Seth: But Satan is destroyed-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and we are given new robes-
David: New robes, to cover our shame
Seth: ... of righteousness. To cover our shame.
David: Yeah, because of the blood of Christ that shed over us. Yeah, amazing. That's, that's amazing. [gentle music]
Seth: So Adam and Eve-
David: Yep
Seth: ... sinned, been given promise, been clothed, and Eve has just been promised that your descendant-
David: Yep
Seth: ... will be this new figure that will crush the serpent-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that just, that just deceived you.
David: Great.
Seth: So I think for Eve, she's assuming that the next child-
David: Of course
Seth: ... is the promised one.
David: Yes.
Seth: And even as-
David: Let's get pregnant. [laughs]
Seth: ... as, uh, even as readers, we're like, okay.
David: Right.
Seth: If we only had the Book of Genesis, we would expect at this point in the story-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a new child would be born, and then 40 years from now, he would grow up, and he would crush the head of the serpent in some big battle.
David: Yeah, he's gonna go back into the garden or something-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... and just own it.
Seth: And we have that story in, like, all of our fairy tales.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, you know, the princess goes into exile-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because of the wicked witch, but she bears a son who will come, come back one day and defeat-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the old hag. Like that-
David: Right, yes
Seth: ... that, that's in our imagination.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: So I think-
David: That's what we're expecting
Seth: ... we're expecting.
David: Yeah, and then, and then what's the first verse? Now Adam and Eve, or now Adam knew-
Seth: His wife
David: ... Eve his wife, which means they, they had sex, and she conceived and bore Cain. We did it.
Seth: We did it.
David: This is it.
Seth: [laughs] This is it.
David: I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.
Seth: Yes.
David: So I think, I think she, like, she sees it-
Seth: Yeah. Oh, definitely
David: ... I've, like, I've had a son.
Seth: It happened. This, this is the promise.
David: A he.
Seth: A he was promised.
David: By the help of the Lord, and again, she bore another son, and so she had two sons.
Seth: Two s- And, and so what we need to see here, then, is we need to see the, the, the promise that God just made was that there would be two different seeds. There would be the seed of the serpent, and there would be the seed of Eve. So, and he would put enmity between them. They, they would be enemies of each other. One would bring the promise, and one would continue doing the things that the serpent did, continue to draw people into sin, continue to, uh, to, to disobey God, continue to grab things that aren't his, and so we're like, we're looking at Cain and Abel. That's why they're put right next to each other.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Son, son. Which one, which one is it? Which one's the-
David: Which one is it?
Seth: Which one's Eve's, and which one's the sa- which one's, which one's the serpent?
David: And Eve's mind is probably, "Well, both of them are great kids."
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Like, "My sons, my sons will crush it," but there was one.
Seth: Yep.
David: And we should just note here, this story of Cain is only, like, eight verses long.
Seth: Right, yep.
David: But it's packed full of meaning.
Seth: Oh my gosh, yes.
David: And w- you are meant to try to figure out what is going on in this story.
Seth: Right.
David: We're not, we're about to, so Cain is a tender of sheep.
Seth: Abel is, other way around
David: Other way around. Yep.
Seth: Cain is a farmer-
David: Right
Seth: ... and Abel is a shepherd.
David: Yes.
Seth: And they go and offer sacrifices to God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And God accepts Ca- uh, Abel's-
David: Abel's
Seth: ... but not Cain's.
David: Right.
Seth: And we're not told why.
David: Right.
Seth: And that tension of not being told why is what the whole story's about.
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: And so a lot of times we wanna solve it.
David: Right.
Seth: Well, why? Well, why, why, why didn't God... Well, it was because God likes-
David: God likes fat offerings and not grain?
Seth: Right, but there's all these-
David: No, there's all these grain offerings
Seth: ... there's all these grain offerings.
David: That can't be it.
Seth: That can't be it. Is this something about Cain's motives?
David: Right.
Seth: We're not told a thing about Cain's motives.
David: Yeah. We're told a little bit later about, apparently he has something going on with sin, and he could offer an acceptable sacrifice, but he's not.
Seth: Is it that God hates Cain?
David: Right.
Seth: Or-
David: Yeah, or if you wanna get really controversial, is it because Cain is the, the seed of the serpent?
Seth: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
David: Which, like, I can't accept this sacrifice. I won't. I refuse it.
Seth: Oh.
David: Yeah. Anyway. [laughs]
Seth: So I think what you're supposed to do when you read this story is you're supposed to think of those things and hold them in your mind and see which one plays out-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... in this story.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like you don't know why.
David: Yep. And you're not told why.
Seth: You're only ever, and you're not told why-
David: No
Seth: ... and you're not supposed to. And I think, I think there's a genre of literature at work. We've talked about wisdom literature.
David: That's right.
Seth: This is supposed to be meditated on.
David: That's right.
Seth: You're supposed to mull over it. And what we're reading here is eventually a retelling of the fall narrative. This is the re-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... this is the fall happening again. As we said, the whole story of the Bible is the story of the fall happening over and over again.
David: That's right.
Seth: And this is the first recapitulation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The first retelling. So we're supposed to see the fall again here, and we're supposed to try to figure out how that happens.
David: Right. So how do we, how do you see the fall being continued here then in this story of Cain and Abel versus the story of Adam and Eve?
Seth: Well, apparently, since the time Adam and Eve were born, um, Cain and Abel were born-
David: Oh, yes. [laughs]
Seth: ... there's sacrifices being offered to God.
David: Right.
Seth: And God has certain expectations of what those sacrifices should or shouldn't be, and we don't know that.
David: Right.
Seth: We just know that that, that's what's happening.
David: Yes.
Seth: And when Cain and Abel bring their sac- sacrifices to God, God says, "I like this one, and I don't like this one."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Offer me this one and not that one." Which is essentially the same choice that he gave Adam and Eve in the garden with the tree. "Eat from these trees and not that tree."
David: Right. Why?
Seth: Why? [laughs] Well, we don't know, actually.
David: Right.
Seth: We don't know why God accepted one and not the other.
David: Right.
Seth: But, but God says, "Cain, will you trust me and bring me a different o- offering?"
David: Right.
Seth: And he tells Cain, "Don't you know that, like-"
David: Yeah, if you do good.
Seth: If you do good-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, there's, like, there's a, you can, you can do good. [laughs]
David: Or if you do well, if you, if you do not, and if you do not do well, sin is crouching at your door. If you do well, will you not be accepted?
Seth: Right. He's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... "Don't you know that if you just obey my commands-
David: Right
Seth: ... I will accept you?"
David: Yes.
Seth: "There is somebody out there, the serpent, who will try to devour you and bring you into-"
David: Yes
Seth: ... "his way. Don't do that. Don't you know if you just obey, you'll be accepted?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think it's the same, it's the same thing. "Don't you know that if you just give me the sacrifice that I want, you'll be accepted?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "I don't, you know, I'm not giving you a reason why, but will you trust me?" And what does Cain do? He, just like his mother, doesn't trust the Lord.
David: No, not at all.
Seth: He succumbs to the crouching sin monster.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: And like, he repeats, and this time-
David: Yeah, this time he, he does, he does the opposite of the, the promise. I mean, the, the fall escalates-
Seth: Yes
David: ... right?
Seth: The fall escalates.
David: The fall escalates here. So we're-
Seth: God
David: ... expecting that, uh, Abel, the one who God loves and accepts his offering, should somehow triumph over Cain, the one who has sin crouching behind him and, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... and has his offering rejected. But instead, the-
Seth: The fall
David: ... opposite happens, and the-
Seth: It gets worse
David: ... it gets worse. The, the, the, the one who, who God doesn't accept his offering ends up crushing the head of Abel, the promised, what we thought was gonna be-
Seth: Right
David: ... the promised seed.
Seth: Something that would've been unconscionable in the garden-
David: Right
Seth: ... happens.
David: Happens.
Seth: It's not the s- sin isn't losing power.
David: It's gaining momentum.
Seth: It's gaining po-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, the sin monster, the sin crouching at the door-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is gaining-
David: Right. Like, we had-
Seth: ... influence
David: ... we had a, we had a, we had a, a bite of a fruit in the, in [laughs] the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Right.
David: Now there's murder between-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... brother and brother. This is getting worse at an exponential rate.
Seth: And the same question comes from the Lord: "Where are you?"
David: "Where's your brother Abel?"
Seth: "Where is your brother Abel?" Where? It's the same one.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's the same question that God asked Adam and Eve is asked right here. It's a s- it's a fall narrative-
David: Yep
Seth: ... on a much, with much graver-
David: Right
Seth: ... consequences almost.
David: And then what happens? He ends up kicking him out of this proximity to the garden because we, we, we're, we're, we're to see that, uh, there was this garden, right? And they're kicked out of it, and God puts a cherubim with a flaming sword in front of the gate to it, and then they're just kinda camped out right there. And a lot of biblical scholars believe that when they brought their offerings to Yahweh, Cain and Abel-
Seth: Right
David: ... they brought it to the gate of the Garden of Eden. They're trying to get back in, and, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it's not working. And so Cain disobeys, and what happens? He is sent farther east of Eden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He is, he is moved farther away from the presence of the Lord. His, his, his exile is extenuated, uh, even worse.
Seth: And if you read through the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if you read through Genesis-
David: Genesis
Seth: ... you'll see-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to the east-
David: Yep
Seth: ... always means further away from God.
David: That's right.
Seth: To the east.
David: And so they end up-
Seth: To the east, to the east
David: ... at the end of Genesis, you're, we're in Egypt, as far away as we could possibly be in the known world from where the Garden of Eden was. Like, we're constantly repeating this fall narrative and moving away from God's presence.
Seth: So God curses Cain.
David: Yep.
Seth: "You should be a fugitive and a wanderer on this earth."
David: Yep.
Seth: And then Cain res- but God still gives Cain grace, which is crazy.
David: Some, some weird bit of protection he gives him.
Seth: Yeah, "My punishment is greater than I can bear"-
David: Right
Seth: ... Cain says, and then, uh, God responds by saying, um, "No. Nobody's gonna kill you. I'm gonna protect you. If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then the L- Lord puts a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him.
David: Right.
Seth: So this protective mark. [laughs]
David: Right. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I don't know what that means-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but some way that Cain was protectedI don't know why
David: Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't know either. God liked this guy still a l- a little bit maybe. I don't know.
Seth: I wonder if, like, there's this, this, like, there's always, like, those, there's two sons often-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in Biblical stories.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And it's not that God always just rejects the other son out of hand.
David: No.
Seth: Like Isaac and Ishmael.
David: Or Jacob and Esau.
Seth: Like, he protects-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Ishmael and Hagar.
David: Yes, he does, in the wilderness. Yep.
Seth: Like, like there's a sense that God loves all his people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... even when they're-
David: Yep
Seth: ... evil.
David: Even, even Esau, he pre- he, he preserves the land of Edom for him, and when Israel, in the Book of Numbers, comes and tries to, like, take it or go through it, God says, "Uh-uh, you're not going through the land of Edom, 'cause that belongs to Esau and his descendants."
Seth: Yes.
David: "I've marked it out for him."
Seth: And so-
David: You're right
Seth: ... so the first time we see it, though, it's kind of disorientating. Like, wait, wait, God, he just killed his brother-
David: Right
Seth: ... and God's gonna protect him?
David: Yeah, it's weird.
Seth: Well, maybe it's because the, who else is, who else is gonna come? Who, what other descendant could there possibly be to crush the serpent?
David: Oh, right.
Seth: So maybe-
David: Oh
Seth: ... like, as a reader, you're thinking, "Well, maybe this will be it." And what's the next verse? Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. Maybe, maybe this will be the se- even, maybe that's counterintuitive-
David: Or is it Seth? Or, oh.
Seth: Oh, he comes later.
David: Oh, you're saying, I see.
Seth: But I'm saying, like, as a reader, you're wondering, "Well, maybe Cain-"
David: Oh, he's gonna be the one
Seth: ... he, and God's gonna do this weird, crazy thing where he's gonna reverse Cain's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... evil.
David: U- use the worst person in the story to do the best possible thing.
Seth: And he's gonna come out. But what you find, and you think maybe that works, because as you read down, you, uh, Cain's descendants create music-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and-
David: They're doing all, in bronze or something
Seth: ... bronze-
David: Like, some kind of metals
Seth: ... and metal-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... and agriculture-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they're building cities, and you're like, "Well, maybe-"
David: This is getting good
Seth: ... this is getting good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, like, if this is written to people in Egypt, they ha- they have a concept of cities and the good that cities can bring and the structure-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that it can be. They're going into a promised land to build their own city, so, like, maybe this is the person.
David: Right.
Seth: This is the, this is our story. And then Lamech-
David: Yep
Seth: ... one of his descendants comes, and he starts boasting-
David: Oh, my gosh, yes
Seth: ... about how awful he is. [laughs]
David: Yeah. He, he's like, uh, you know, "I killed a man just for wounding me. This guy came up and he scratched my cheek, so I just murdered him."
Seth: And then he takes God's words.
David: Yep.
Seth: "If God will punish anybody who kills Cain seven times, I will punish, as if I am God-
David: Seven times
Seth: ... 70 times."
David: Seven or whatever.
Seth: Uh, yeah, he said 70-
David: Seven times
Seth: ... 77-fold.
David: Yeah. He's just like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm the baddest of them all." Like, he, he's-
Seth: Yeah, so it's like-
David: He's showing us numerically how escalated sin is at this point. Like, so we're like, oh, I guess Cain's not the one.
Seth: It's, uh, okay.
David: Because things are getting worse under his l- line.
Seth: Lamech seems the worst.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And then what, what do we know? "And Adam knew his wife again-"
David: Mm
Seth: "... and she had a son called Seth," which is my name.
David: Which is your name.
Seth: Which is my name.
David: What does Seth mean, Seth?
Seth: God has appointed me. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Has he?
Seth: Well-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... "And he called his name Seth, for," she said, "God has appointed for h- me another offspring instead of Abel-"
David: No, Seth-
Seth: "... for Cain"
David: ... we're, we're supposed to see Jesus in this, not you.
Seth: Not, oh.
David: Okay?
Seth: That is my constant problem-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... when I read the Bible, is I think it's about me-
David: Right?
Seth: ... but it's about Jesus.
David: You're the only one in the world who struggles with that, you know. [laughs]
Seth: So-
David: Right
Seth: ... again, what do we see here?
David: There's, there's hope.
Seth: There's hope.
David: Right.
Seth: Another s- so, like, we see, okay, the seed of the serpent comes from Cain, but there's this other man named Seth.
David: Yes.
Seth: Maybe he will be the one.
David: Right.
Seth: And this is where we come to chapter five.
David: Yes.
Seth: And chapter five feels crazy for us.
David: Yeah, or, or boring for us.
Seth: Or boring for us, except for the fact that people are living for, like, 1,000 years.
David: We're like, "Whoa-"
Seth: Like-
David: "... 912 years old? Dang."
Seth: And so when we come to, so, like, just, let's recap.
David: Yep.
Seth: What's happening? The c- creation, perfect world.
David: Right.
Seth: God curses, we sin, God curses. Abel is tri- Abel and Cain, murdered. The world gets worse. Lamech is even worse. But maybe there's this hopeful flow within Seth, and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, he can bring about, and then we have this genealogy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of all the ancient rulers and people of the world.
David: Right. From Seth's line.
Seth: From Seth's line.
David: Right. So we, we saw, we saw Cain's line-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and things got worse.
Seth: Yes.
David: So if we believe the promise of God, that he's gonna have a seed of the serpent and a seed of the woman, and, well, we know that Cain's must be the seed of the serpent, 'cause things are getting worse-
Seth: Yes
David: ... well, then, I guess things are gonna get better?
Seth: With Seth?
David: With Seth.
Seth: And, and you think that male and female, he created them, and he blessed them, and he named them, and they were-
David: Right
Seth: ... created.
David: This sounds like the beginning.
Seth: And when Adam lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own image, in his own likeness. After his image, he named him Seth. So it's like-
David: It sounds like creation again
Seth: ... it sounds like creation again. This is it.
David: Are we rebuilding Eden?
Seth: And everyone's living, like, 1,000 years.
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: Maybe this is it.
David: Right.
Seth: And th- we pause here.
David: Oh, yeah. Oh.
Seth: Why are we living 1,000 years?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, as soon as I read this, I'm like, uh, I, I don't know what to do with that.
David: Right.
Seth: Did people actually live that long?
David: Mm.
Seth: Is this what s- is this what it's intended to communicate, that 815 years and 90 years and 910 years and 830 years?
David: Right.
Seth: What i- why is everyone living so long?
David: Well, you see, the atmosphere was different in the [laughs] That's what, that's-
Seth: I've heard that answer before
David: ... I've heard that answer too. [laughs]
Seth: So I think this goes back to maybe a genre question.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So, um, one, you could read it like, see? God's line.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God's line is just-
David: They're just-
Seth: ... supernatural.
David: They're living a long time.
Seth: They will rule the world, and God's blessing with a, with long life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think something else is happening.
David: Okay.
Seth: So they're, um, if you go back to the ancient Near Eastern literature-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and you read about the patriarchs of Sumerian culture-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or Assyrian culture, what you'll actually find is lists just like this one of the patriarchs of that people group.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they're living for crazy amounts of years.
David: Right.
Seth: 10,000 years, 5,000 years, 7,000 years. These are the kings-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who established the society, whose line brought prosperity to the people, and they're deified. Like, so in the ancient mindset, you're expecting, actually, something like this. There's actually this divine lineage-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who just lives for thousands of years, and their reign and their rule brings peace and prosperity.
David: Right.
Seth: So when you read this, you actually have a category for this.
David: Right. Say, "I know what this is."
Seth: This is the divine line. This is what we're expecting.
David: Right, so this must be the seed of Eve.
Seth: This must be the seed of Eve.
David: Right.
Seth: So what's crazy is-How short everybody lives.
David: Oh.
Seth: So everybody comes in, it's like, "Why is everybody living so long?" I ask that to the wrong question.
David: 'Cause how long are they living in, like, the Sumerian literature?
Seth: 10,000.
David: Oh my goodness. [laughs]
Seth: 15,000. 8,000 years.
David: What?
Seth: So when an ancient mind comes to read this, they're not asking, "Well, why is everyone living so long?"
David: They're like, "This divine line sucks." [laughs]
Seth: "Why is everyone living so short?"
David: Yeah. This sounds like a cursed divine line.
Seth: And then that's exactly the point.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because what do you read after every single line? "And he died."
David: Oh, man.
Seth: "And he died, and he died."
David: No one's living forever.
Seth: "And he died, and he died."
David: [sighs]
Seth: What is the drumbeat after the fall?
David: Death.
Seth: "And he died."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And he died."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And he died." Even the divine line is not-
David: Wow
Seth: ... exempt from the curse.
David: That's amazing. That's-
Seth: Is it? [laughs]
David: I mean, it, it, it's amazing from, like, I've never heard that before, so I'm amazed-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... from a literary standpoint, but it's also amazing how depressing that is.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, there's all this death, Seth.
Seth: There is.
David: What are we, what are we gonna do? [laughs]
Seth: And, like, the, the, the, some, uh, they get shorter, too. Like, the, like, like-
David: Oh, right. Yeah, they do get shorter, so it's like not only are they dying, these already small-by-comparison numbers are dwindling.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so, and that's where we end, and we land on this man Noah, who we'll talk about next week, but, um, we don't know who he is yet.
Seth: Who lives only 500 years. [laughs]
David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, well, a- no, at 500 years, he fa- he fathered people.
Seth: Oh. Oh, okay.
David: He lives longer than that. But, um, and so, like, what do we do with this? Um, I think one thing we should point out is, um, there's this structure, this recurring structure that happens all throughout the Book of Genesis, and it's the genealogies.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "This is the genealogy of," and that i- that's a, that's a, that's a very just common Hebrew term over and over again, and it's used 10 times here in Genesis.
Seth: The genealogy of.
David: The genealogy of.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "This is the genealogy of, the genealogy of," and they-
Seth: The generations of.
David: The generations of.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Same thing. Um, and this is to show us a, a recap, um, or a shift, or, like, a, uh, section divider in the story, and, uh, and so what we have is, why, like, why are these here? Why is it throughout the whole Book of Genesis we're getting lists of descendants?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, it's because of the f- promise in Genesis 3:15.
Seth: Right.
David: We are waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting-
Seth: For this divine line
David: ... this divine line. Where is this s- this seed of Eve who's gonna-
Seth: So it's not just-
David: ... end all this death?
Seth: ... it's not just conforming to ancient expectations of a divine line.
David: No.
Seth: It's actually within the story itself, we're waiting for a divine line.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This son of Eve-
David: Right
Seth: ... who will crush the serpent.
David: Right.
Seth: We're waiting for it.
David: Right, which w- with each, with each one, we should be going, "Oh, and Seth, he lived 105 years, and he fathered a guy named Enosh, and he lived 108, uh, 807 years, and then Seth lived 912 years, and then he crushed the head of the serpent."
Seth: Right.
David: "Oh, no, he died."
Seth: Oh, he died.
David: Next. And then Enosh, and then it just-
Seth: And he died
David: ... again, heightened expectations, death, heightened expectations, death, and as you do this, the mountain peaks that you're going up on, the heightened expectations, get shorter and shorter and shorter 'cause people aren't living longer.
Seth: And then when you get to the end-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of Genesis 5, "And Noah was 500 years old, and he fathered Shem, Ham, and Japheth," and no death.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Is this the man?
David: Right.
Seth: Is this the-
David: Because then we're gonna get a, a narrative is going to interrupt the story.
Seth: Right.
David: And we'll pick up on that narrative next week, but what I want us to, to know is this, this genealogy and that w- that exact word for it, when you put it into Greek, is what we find when we turn our pages into our New Testament, and we see Matthew, and we see Luke, and what do they begin with?
Seth: So you just made, so let me make sure-
David: I made a big jump. Yep.
Seth: Let, let me make sure I'm following you.
David: Yep.
Seth: So how do we see Jesus in this passage?
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause that's, that's where we're driving.
David: That's the question I'm asking. Right.
Seth: And so we're like, death everywhere.
David: Right.
Seth: Death everywhere. We're waiting for a divine line.
David: Yes.
Seth: We're waiting for some sort of g- there's all these genealogies all throughout the Bible, and they all end in death. We're still waiting for a divine line that gets us saved from the curse.
David: Right, out of death.
Seth: And where is it?
David: Right.
Seth: And you're saying it's in-
David: I'm saying that this is what Matthew and Luke are picking up on when they begin, "This is the genealogy of Jesus."
Seth: So they're like, "You have all been waiting for the divine line."
David: That's right, and they, he goes back-
Seth: "Here it is."
David: ... and Matthew goes back to, like, Abraham, which is where we'll find out after Noah will come from this divine line of kings, Abraham, and he just picks that up. Luke goes all the way back to the Garden, and he's like, "This is the son of Adam and Eve that we've been waiting for." And he says, "All this death, all this death, all this death," and then we get to the end of Matthew and Luke, and Jesus on a cross, and he died, and the drumbeat continues. Oh, no. [laughs] Like, but then he doesn't stay dead, right?
Seth: Right.
David: He rises from the dead and crushes the head of the serpent. And, and, and-
Seth: Right. Oh, man.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I didn't even think about that, like, how that drumbeat-
David: Oh, man
Seth: ... "And he died" still continues with this Jesus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who we thought would be-
David: Right
Seth: ... the, the best candidate so far. [laughs]
David: That's right.
Seth: Perfect candidate, but he still dies.
David: Right.
Seth: And he rose, resurrected from the dead.
David: Yep.
Seth: So why is it, then, to end-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... why is it that Jesus had to die in order to complete the genealogy, this hope for the genealogy?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, why'd he have to die-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order to undo-
David: Right
Seth: ... all the unmet expectations?
David: Well, because God's not a liar, and God said, "If you sin, you will bring a curse," and that curse is you will surely die, and God's not a liar. You will surely die. Those who bring sin into the world have the curse of death over their lives, and so God doesn't take that word back. He holds it true, but He's gracious, and so He holds it true in Himself, that He would become flesh as the promised seed of Eve and bear the curse of death in Himself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that w- so that He is not a liar.
Seth: Right.
David: The curse of death has been expended, but on Him, so that we might be spared to be brought back into the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Have you seen the options between what God has already provided and what you could achieve by grabbing it for yourself and said, "Well, I want what I can get myself"?
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: And if you've answered yes to that at any point in your life, death is coming-
David: Right
Seth: ... and you will die.
David: Right.
Seth: And you will die, and your son will die, and your daughter will die.
David: And the drumbeat will continue.
Seth: And if you wanna escape that, somebody will still need to die because God's not a liar.
David: Right.
Seth: But Jesus will do it for you.
David: Yes.
Seth: In the same way that He rose from the dead, so will you.
David: Yeah. It's such good news.
Seth: Such good news.
David: Such good news. All right. Well, next week, we will jump into, uh, where we left off with, uh, Noah.
Seth: Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Maybe these are the guys.
David: Maybe the, one of them. Surely one of them.
Seth: Maybe one of these guys will be the guys.
David: [laughs] And we'll see.
Seth: And we'll see.
David: It'll be so great.
Seth: I mean, there is, like, 1,000 pages after, so-
David: Maybe not. [laughs]
Seth: Maybe not, if you just look at the size of the Bible.
David: It's a really long story.
Seth: Have you ever, like, wa-
David: The story of Shem.
Seth: Have you ever- [laughs] Have you ever, like, watched a movie and, like, the main character dies-
David: Oh
Seth: ... in the first five minutes, and you, like, look at the Netflix-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, "We've got an hour left. What's this movie about?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's like, oh, in Psycho, Alfred Hitchcock in Psycho, he does that.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: He kills this, Kim Novak, right, Kim Novak. She was, like, this famous actress, and she kill, he kills her in the first five minutes. You're like, "Well, what's the rest of the movie about?"
David: "I came here to see Kim Novak in this movie."
Seth: Well, anyway, that was-
David: There we go
Seth: ... what's up. That's-
David: So that's the cliffhanger to get you to come-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and listen to the episode next week. Kim Novak is dead, but there's still an hour left of this movie. What's gonna happen? [laughs]
Seth: What's gonna happen? [laughs]
David: All right. We'll see you guys next week.
Seth: Bye. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
