Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast.
Seth: Welcome.
David: Welcome. Welcome.
Seth: Welcome.
David: Welcome. We're very glad that you're here. Um-
Seth: Four welcomes glad.
David: Four welcomes glad.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yes, that is the... That is how welcomed you should feel.
Seth: We're still-
David: If you feel three welcomes glad-
Seth: Oh
David: ... you're not welcomed enough. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] This is what the meet and greet at church is for.
David: This is, this is it.
Seth: This is true.
David: For awkward people like us to back you into a corner and be like-
Seth: Welcome
David: ... "Hi, you like Jesus?" [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] That's us.
David: That's us.
Seth: And welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. We are still in the Book of Genesis.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: In Genesis chapter 6.
David: Yes.
Seth: The continuation of the fall. So I've been thinking about Genesis.
David: I would hope so since we're gonna talk about it [laughs] today.
Seth: And I've been trying to just think of more and more helpful ways for us to engage, like, our imagination in the Book of Genesis, and I keep thinking about superhero origin stories.
David: Of course you have. That makes total sense.
Seth: I don't know if you've seen... [laughs] I don't know if you've seen the new Spider-Man.
David: Oh, the animated one?
Seth: It's... Yeah. [laughs]
David: Ugh.
Seth: It's so good.
David: So good.
Seth: It's so good, and one of the things that I think is helpful, at least for me, is that we have not moved beyond the need for creation myths in our culture-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... and our society, but we just don't call them creation myths. We call them origin stories.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And we have things like... We, I don't... I was, like, as a kid, the first movie in a superhero franchise was always the best one.
David: Oh, Batman Begins?
Seth: Batman Begins.
David: Come on.
Seth: Sp- the first [laughs] Spider-Man. Like, whenever the superhero is, like, learning his power and trying to figure it out-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that was always the most interesting.
David: It was always a lot of fun.
Seth: It was always the most fun.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so as I've been thinking about that, I've, I've kinda realized what Genesis does for us, it gives us kind of an imaginative universe. Who's in charge? God is. Who is evil and who's good? God is evil, and everything-
David: Oh, God is evil? [laughs]
Seth: Okay, God is good.
David: [laughs]
Seth: God is good, and everythi- and anything that's evil is created and lesser than Him.
David: Right.
Seth: Who are we? We are made in God's image, designed to rule with Him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It gives him, like, an imaginative framework for who we are, and origin stories do the same thing for us.
David: Right.
Seth: They say fundamentally the world is, has equal and opposite forces of good and evil, and just a little nudge on either side, and it could fall out of balance.
David: Hmm.
Seth: We're waiting for a hero to save us. This hero comes on the scene and develops his power through self-realization of his own innate abilities.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then, uh, normally it's happens in a world of chaos, like complete chaos.
David: Right.
Seth: Everything's going crazy.
David: Gotham City. Everything's terrible.
Seth: Gotham City, or even Miles Morales. His parents are divorced or-
David: Oh
Seth: ... divorcing.
David: Right.
Seth: His brother is involved in some crazy stuff. Like, the world around them is falling apart.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the only hope-
David: Literally ripped apart at the seams by breaking the space-time continuum-
Seth: Yes
David: ... through a black hole or something-
Seth: Exactly
David: ... that I don't really understand.
Seth: The world is chaotic.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's between two forces of good and evil, and the way that the world is saved is through a hero who realizes who he truly is.
David: Right.
Seth: That's the narrative of almost every one.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that we, we still believe that. So the origin story of Genesis is profoundly different.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The world is not equally pitted between good and evil. There is one good God-
David: Right
Seth: ... who controls all things-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and anything evil is far below Him.
David: Right.
Seth: We are not saved by realizing who we are-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but by realizing that God has made us in His image to do His will.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's a completely different vision of what we should be in this world and how the world will be saved.
David: Right.
Seth: And besides that, when evil and conflict does enter, it's not through human beings. It's through a son that God sends that will-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... save the world.
David: Right.
Seth: It's a totally different way of thinking about our origins and who we are as people. We're not saved by self-realization.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We're saved by the Lord who gave us ourself.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah. That's really, that's really cool.
Seth: And so then when Genesis 3:15 comes-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and the fall comes-
David: Yep
Seth: ... what happens? We shift from an origin story to a post-apocalyptic nightmare.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's the rest of the Book of Genesis, is us slowly falling further and further away from God's good creation-
David: Right
Seth: ... into Mad Max, into a desert with a crazy ruler.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And we're all enslaved. That's the story of the Book of Genesis.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And we're trying to figure out life in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
David: Right.
Seth: That's the story.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's the story.
David: I like your brain, Seth. [laughs]
Seth: Cormac McCarthy in The Road.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: I'm going there.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: It's just two, uh, they're not even named. It's a fa- a boy and a father, and the whole story, they're just, it's a battle. Like, how can we remain good? What are we gonna do? How do we survive? And the line is, like, we have to keep carrying the fire.
David: Hmm.
Seth: We have to keep carrying the fire. Nobody ever explains what the fire is except that it's worth carrying on, and you don't really have to explain what the fire is. It's that humanity. It's not giving in to the cannibals that are-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... surrounding you.
David: Hmm.
Seth: It's not, uh, acting... It's not killing other people.
David: Right.
Seth: It's, like, being part of a family, being close-knit.
David: And so, like, now you, uh, uh, you talk about this po- post-apocalyptic, like, view of this story of the, of the Old Testament.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The whole Old Testament-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... leading up to Jesus is this post-apocalyptic zombie universe.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like Israel is the, is the survivors' enclave [laughs]-
Seth: Yes. That's exactly right
David: ... that God is building, and saying like, "Okay, I'm gonna bring you into this, this..." There's always that safe land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like, where people in the city are like, "I hear out in Cleveland there's-"
Seth: Right
David: ... "a refuge."
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: And it's like the land of Canaan.
Seth: Right.
David: I'm gonna take you there. Land flowing-
Seth: That's Terminus
David: ... with milk and honey.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: That's Terminus.
Seth: [laughs]
David: We're gonna go there. Everything will be safe. There's big walls and, you know, everything like that, and, like, that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's ha- but it fails, and the disease from the outside, the zombie world, ends up getting into Israel itself-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and eating her alive, and it's like, oh, so Israel is not gonna be the savior. This enclave's not gonna be the savior. There's gonna have to be something else that's the savior. So-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this is the world we're in.
Seth: Right.
David: This post-apocalyptic zombie world.
Seth: And so when we read-
David: Cool
Seth: ... Genesis 6 to 11, we need to understand, like, for us, that's really helpful because we expect certain-... things to happen in the post-apocalyptic genre. Like, we expect the world slowly to get worse-
David: Worse. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and worse and worse and to get darker and darker and darker.
David: Right.
Seth: And that no matter how great there s- there, there might be some victory, it's always short-lived.
David: Right.
Seth: And you're waiting, you're s- always waiting for the end, the apocalypse.
David: Yeah, or like, or like a complete reversal, like a cure.
Seth: Yes, a cure.
David: Yep, yep. Okay.
Seth: So that's where we are.
David: Interesting. That's a-
Seth: That's where we are.
David: All right, so-
Seth: I don't know if that's helpful for all of our listeners. [laughs]
David: It was helpful for you, though, and that's what matters.
Seth: It was helpful for me. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: And again, that's not to say the book is false-
David: Oh, right, right, right
Seth: ... that this is just a story.
David: I think in, I think in the last episode you said something... Or not the last, like, Psalm 22, but back- the last time we talked about Genesis and the fall, you said, uh, just like these are myth, not that they're false, but that they're forming our worldview.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right. They're, yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yes, they're true stories told in a way to help shape the worldview of the people who originally listened to them.
Seth: And so the first we- thing we're told about the post-apocalyptic wasteland-
David: Oh, boy
Seth: ... is the Nephilim.
David: I don't wanna, I don't wanna do it.
Seth: [laughs]
David: No, it's good.
Seth: Who are the Nephilim?
David: Yeah. Uh, well let's, let's t- let's take a look. So what, this is, uh, this is-
Seth: Genesis 6
David: ... Genesis 6.
Seth: The first words [laughs] of Genesis 6.
David: "When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh. His days shall be 120 years.' The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These of, are the mighty men of renown who, uh, were of old." So there you go.
Seth: There's the Nephilim.
David: So there's the Nephilim. Um-
Seth: Why is this here?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Maybe, like, instead of, like, okay, we have some weird demonic human babies or something.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, instead of going there, like, why is this story here?
David: Yeah. Well, I think we're, we're supposed to see one, one, that the rebellion and the brokenness and, um, the sin is getting worse and s- it's, it, you, you have these two, two things that are supposed to be happening, or, or one thing that's supposed to be happening. Mankind was supposed to be fruitful and multiply and spread the image of God around the world, and the exact opposite is happening.
Seth: Mm.
David: Through this cross-pollination of these fallen, rebellious mini gods, these sons of God, like, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they, they are being fruitful and multiplying with them and spreading a broken image around the world. So it's like the original idea of creation was, "I've made you in my image, have babies, and fill the earth with that image."
Seth: Right.
David: And now we are not, uh, not multiplying God's image around the world, but these false-
Seth: Mm
David: ... mini gods, we're, we're spreading their image. So it's like this is how bad things are getting-
Seth: Right
David: ... is, I think, is like the original intent of the garden is not only not being fulfilled, the exact opposite is occurring.
Seth: So this is really, like, a false way to fulfill the command-
David: Right
Seth: ... to be fruitful and multiply.
David: That's right.
Seth: It's not spreading God's image throughout the world, but it's spreading this demonic image throughout the world.
David: Right. That's right.
Seth: And so whether or not this is a actual demon having s- actual sex with human ladies or [laughs] something else-
David: Right
Seth: ... we know what it's communicating to us is the world is getting so bad that the only command that God gave in the garden is being reversed to its greatest possible extent.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's, that's what we're supposed to see in that moment, right?
David: Yeah, I think so. I, I think it's, we don't have the time and it's not the focus of this show to get into the minutia-
Seth: Right
David: ... of cosmologically and biologically what occurred-
Seth: Right
David: ... to make these children, the Nephilim.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, but what I think, I think what we've said is, is, is, is things are spiraling out of control. Um, the, the heavens are rebelling, right? The, the Elohim, the divine council is, is fracturing and, and there's a cosmic rebellion that is bleeding into this earth rebellion. What started in the garden with a snake is now multiplying several times over with multiple fallen, uh, Elohim that are just-
Seth: Right
David: ... making a mess of everything. We're, we're reversing the creation mandate, uh, and it, it just seems like the whole thing is spiraling out of control. It's post-apocalyptic, like-
Seth: And like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... most apocalyptic movies, what causes the outbreak? What causes the extreme weather event? It's human pride.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Human pride caused... We, we made this vi- we thought we could control the virus, but then the apes take over.
David: Uh-huh. [laughs] The apes took over.
Seth: All of us, like, our, and the hu- our hubris comes back on itself-
David: On us, yeah, mm-hmm
Seth: ... through, through nature-
David: Right
Seth: ... through zombies, through monkeys. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Like, something, our pride is expressed in the world around us, and it comes back to us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is actually s- very similar to what happens here. Our pride and our hubris and our, our rebellion is so great, the world doesn't curve back on itself, although it does.
David: Mm.
Seth: But God sends the world as punishment for our pride.
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: Right?
David: Right. Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah. So you're leaning into the flood there, right?
Seth: I'm leaning into the flood there, right.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes to that. I think I, I want, just 'cause I don't wanna have to circle back around to it later, [laughs] I think it'd be good to talk about Jesus in this passage about the Nephilim-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, because we-
Seth: Prove we can talk about Jesus and the Nephilim. [laughs]
David: In any corner of scripture. Um, and so, I mean, you think about it, you have these sons of God from the heavens-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... coming down and, uh, creating a new breed of humans, right? So you have these half men, half god babies, you know, that are interpolluting with the world, and it's making corruption.
Seth: And causing destruction.
David: That's right.
Seth: Causing the wrath of God to come in the flood.
David: To come out. That's right, to come.
Seth: Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
David: The exact opposite happens with the gospel, right? So you have the true man-god, who's not a lesser Elohim in that term of God.
Seth: Right.
David: He's God himself, half Yahweh, half Adam, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Half man, half God in Jesus.
Seth: 100% God.
David: 100% God. H- yeah, sorry, there we go.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Thank you for correcting my heresy. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: And, uh, 100% God, 100% man, and, um, and-And come, comes to us and cre- and cre- is born of a virgin, so there's not... Like, there... But there is this kind of interesting correlation between-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the impregnation that led to the Nephilim and the Holy Spirit conce- uh, you know-
Seth: Conceiving
David: ... conceiving in Mary-
Seth: Right
David: ... the, Jesus. Very... I mean, who knows what's happening there?
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Um, and then you have this, this God who comes and he, he allows a new breed of people to be made, not through, like we've talked about with-
Seth: Right
David: ... with being fruitful and multiplying, not through sexual intercourse, but through, um, proclaiming the good news of Jesus. He's, we're reborn in, uh, through baptism-
Seth: Right
David: ... into this new family of, we're new creations. And, and-
Seth: Instead of these spirit beings-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... expressing their pride in the world, and then the world turning in on itself by God's wrath and destroying them, we become these new spirit beings-
David: Right
Seth: ... in-filled with the Holy Spirit-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to go out and save the world from the wrath to come.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's what the gospel-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's the gospel-
David: Right
Seth: ... term in the Nephilim.
David: Which is really cool, and it sets us up for the flood really well here-
Seth: Right
David: ... because there is a coming wrath, and there is c- coming salvation, a- all at, all at once. So, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll check that out now. [instrumental music] So God has made this pronouncement that His spirit will not abide with man forever. His days will be 120 years, um, which a- has confused a lot of people, because they say, "So man's only gonna live 120 years and then they'll die? No one's gonna live longer than 120 years?"
Seth: Oh.
David: And that's been-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, the thing. But then after the flood, for a long time, people live much longer than 120 years.
Seth: Right.
David: So it's like, so was God wrong? Did the-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... did this, like, promise take a while to go into effect? [laughs] Or, like, did it slowly trickle down?
Seth: It was only for the half-god, half-demon, half-human babies.
David: Yeah, yeah, what's the deal?
Seth: [laughs]
David: And, uh, and I, I think the more convincing argument is that from this time when you, then when you trace the descendants, uh, you kinda, like, line up the chronology, the chronology of, uh, Genesis. What it looks like is there was 120 years from this pronouncement to the flood.
Seth: Oh, okay.
David: Right, which makes a lot more sense for me. So that's where I put my foot down on that.
Seth: I have no, I have no-
David: You have no dog in that fight.
Seth: I-
David: You have, you don't care.
Seth: I, I, I care.
David: [laughs] You care.
Seth: But I did not know I needed to care-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... until this moment.
David: Well, great. Well, there you go. Then you can just take my word for it since you have no competing opinion. [laughs]
Seth: I'm so excited.
David: Great. Uh, and then, um, so n- God says that there's gonna be this flood, right? And he's going to wipe... Because, uh, and the reason is, we should probably look at this, the reason God says he's gonna wipe out the flood is that, uh, where is that? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Seth: Uh, yes.
David: Like, he's-
Seth: Verse 11.
David: Thank you.
Seth: "Now the Earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the Earth was filled with violence. And God saw the Earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the Earth." And he goes on to say essentially that there's, everyone does evil all the time.
David: Right.
Seth: Continually.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's why the flood's coming. Everyone does evil all the time continually.
David: Yeah, and he says that the, the, the world is corrupt, and, um, I, I looked that up. Like, the Hebrew word there, um, has this connotation of also, uh, like, destroyed. Like, that, that word has, it can also mean destroyed. The word, the world is already destroyed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so God is finishing what man started in the flood.
Seth: Right.
David: That he's destroying-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... what's been destroyed.
Seth: It goes back to, like, our pride-
David: That's right
Seth: ... like, turning back on itself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We thought we could just go ahead and destroy the world of the rainforest, and that fact, it's actually causing Interstellar. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, it's causing the world to, like, just eat itself alive.
David: Right.
Seth: Nothing works the way it should anymore.
David: Yep.
Seth: And God's saying, "Okay, you've chosen this for yourself. I'm gonna come in and actively choose for you the same path."
David: Right.
Seth: Same thing we saw in Exodus when we walked through.
David: Mm.
Seth: Pharaoh hardens his own heart-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... and then God comes in behind and says, "I will confirm you-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by my active decision in your rebellion."
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so, um, so God, uh, is going to flood the Earth and blot out humankind. He's, he, he, he says he's sorry that he made the Earth. "I regret it. I regret that I made the Earth," right? Which is a hard passage. It's a very hard passage.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, God can regret something? And I, and I-
Seth: Does that mean he wished he didn't do it?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Did God wish he didn't do something? And w- n- no, but it's like, we have to understand that at some point we're using human words, and what, what we're trying, what, what the Biblical author's trying to communicate to us is a, an emotion.
Seth: Right.
David: Is that God is filled with sadness and hurt, and it, and, like, how do you communicate that? It feels like regret.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, he's just trying to let us into the heart of God.
Seth: It doesn't feel good for God to see his hum- his creation destroy the world around him, and then say, "Okay, if that's what you want-
David: Right
Seth: ... let me give it to you."
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, that doesn't-
David: We shouldn't see God smiling-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... as he unleashes the floods. He's weeping.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so I think that's just something good for us to remember, um, is that this was painful for God to do. Uh, but-
Seth: And-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's the first time we see God experiencing, like, this, this type of emotion.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: We see, like, we see, like, he's... In the Garden, you can tell that he's, like, exacting punishment.
David: Right.
Seth: But we don't get an emotive word.
David: Right.
Seth: Which I just think it's interesting that we get this emotive word for God, and he's just weeping.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's regretful. He wishes it didn't have to be so, but he knows it must be.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's, and he's sad.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Man.
David: Yeah. And so, um, but what's interesting is, uh, there's still this promise extended from the beginning in Genesis, right? Where there is supposed to be this seed, this promised seed from Eve that continues and ultimately bears a child that will defeat evil forever. Uh, but if God kills everyone, [laughs] where's that seed gonna come from? E- Eve's line will be over. And so God finds this man, Noah.
Seth: He carries the fire.
David: And he carries the fire. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] That's gonna always come back to that.
David: Okay, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that. And so, um, he, he selects Noah, who is, we're told that he's righteous, right? And, um, I think there's, uh, a few things to note here. One is, is I don't think this is primarily about Noah's moral worth. I think it's probably in there. It's primarily about the fact that he is in this chosen line.That, like, just like Ee- you know, Enoch was, uh, earlier i- in, in the, in the story. We've been following through these genealogies this chosen line and, um, when we, when we follow them, we see who's righteous and who's not, who's chosen, who's not.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Who's of the line of Eve, who's, who's of the line of Satan.
Seth: And it's in verse eight, "But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord"
David: Right.
Seth: And that word favor is the word that's translated elsewhere as grace.
David: Right.
Seth: Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord.
David: That's right.
Seth: He was blameless among his generation, and it says that in the next verse, but ultimately the reason why he was chosen is because God decided-
David: Right
Seth: ... I will ch- I will love you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Not based on who you are or your blamelessness or your greatness, but because I've chosen to love you.
David: Right. And so he has him build this ark, this, uh, or, or, uh, chest or coffin.
Seth: Okay.
David: Interesting. Yeah, there's these, these, these Hebrew and Babylonian words being played with here, um, that it's, it's closer to the word chest than it is to the word boat.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, which-
Seth: Floating box
David: ... a floating box.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, absolutely, like a floating box, kind of e- e- emotive of a coffin-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is this whole death to life motif that's happening here, is that, that God is saving the world through death.
Seth: Mm.
David: That he's going to kill the world, but put-
Seth: But protect it in a coffin
David: ... but protect it in a coffin.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And then bring them out of that coffin into life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's a death, burial, and resurrection-
Seth: Oh
David: ... thing happening here.
Seth: That sounds like Jesus.
David: Wait a second.
Seth: [laughs]
David: What show do you think you're on here? Spoken Gospel?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, but that's, that's, like, the motif that's happening here that, that, that we see. And what's really interesting, too, is, um, it's not just Noah that's saved, right? It's his family.
Seth: His whole family.
David: Which, um, isn't just a utilitarian concept. Like, it wasn't just, um, a matter of utility.
Seth: Oh, just like-
David: Right
Seth: ... "Well, we need to replenish the population-
David: That's right, exactly
Seth: ... on the other side of the flood, so you better have some wives."
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs]
David: It, it... That's part of it, I'm sure.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: But the other part is this idea that Noah's family was saved because of Noah's righteousness and blamelessness and God's grace to him, that he is the representative head of his family, and since he was, found favor in the sight of God, his family was saved along with him.
Seth: Okay.
David: Which is, again-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a picture of Christ, who is the head of the new humanity.
Seth: Who is himself blameless.
David: Who is his- himself truly blameless-
Seth: Blameless
David: ... and extends grace to us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we are saved on account of him. We enter into his ark.
Seth: And we're adopted by him.
David: That's right.
Seth: We're saved by-
David: Into his family
Seth: ... it, we're saved, we're adopted into his family and we're saved by the fact that he goes into a coffin for us-
David: Right
Seth: ... comes out of the waters of death, and saves us.
David: Right.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes. So another really cool way to see Jesus there, um, which, uh, uh, I think Peter picks up on, uh, in the New Testament. And so, um, the floodwaters come, and here we get a really important image, right? Um, because you have the waters from heaven, uh, and the waters from the deep coming together.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? We-
Seth: I, I've, I noticed that. I didn't know it was important.
David: Well, it's the uncre- it's uncreation because what was one of the first acts Jes- God did when he made the world-
Seth: Oh
David: ... he put a vault between the sky and the, and the ground and, like, separated-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the waters.
Seth: He separated the two, and so this is an-
David: That's right
Seth: ... image of them coming back together.
David: Them coming back together. So we're seeing again the Spirit was over the face of the deep, right, and hovering over the waters, and it's like, oh, no, we're back at the beginning. Like-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... this is uncreation.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Everything's going back to the way it was.
Seth: Un- this, like, vast and void water, watery desert.
David: Right.
Seth: It's, that's, the world's going back to that now.
David: Right. And now it's not the spirit of God just hovering over the face of the water, it's-
Seth: This coffin. [laughs]
David: ... it's this, yeah. And it's the, it's the image-bearers of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... hovering over the face of the water-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who are going to come back down to the earth and recreate it, just as God originally created Eden, right? So you had God hovering over the face of the waters, separates them, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And then God then works the ground and f- forms everything.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Now, sh- the human project now is the humans go back down to earth from the, from the void-
Seth: Interesting, right
David: ... and recreate everything.
Seth: So what we should be waiting for is when they finally, finally hit the ground, it's like a new-
David: Eden
Seth: ... a new Eden.
David: Correct.
Seth: Or a new version of Eden where God's image-bearers actually do the job they were h- handed in the first place.
David: That's right.
Seth: Create the world.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: And that's what we see.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So we see, uh, when the floodwaters subside, um, they rest on top of a mountain, which we're told, we think we talked about this in the first episode about Genesis-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that Eden was also pictured as a mountain, right?
Seth: That's right.
David: So we're back on a mountain. Why? Because mountaintops in the ancient Near East when this was written were viewed as the abodes of the gods.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? They're the closest to heaven. And-
Seth: That's where-
David: Yep
Seth: ... priests would go to meet with gods.
David: Right.
Seth: When they land on top of the mountain, like, in the ancient mind, like, this is where they would meet with God.
David: Yes.
Seth: This is where God, the gods would reside.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Instead we have humans residing where the gods reside, or with God-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, just like in the Garden of Eden, and from that place wh- where the humans are in communion with God, they spread the image of God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... throughout the world.
David: Right. And so, and that's what we get. Uh, they, they land on this mountain, they go out, and immediately after, um, God gives them this, the creation mandate again, right? He re- renews to them the same kind of covenant he gave to Adam and Eve, the same words he gave them, "Be fruitful and multiply." You know, he, he tells them to, "Fill the earth." Uh, and then you also see, um, Noah working the ground. He plants a vineyard. So he's, he's starting to do garden things, right? You know?
Seth: Right, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's planting fruit and doing that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Before we get to Noah doing all of his-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... garden things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what, I always think about the dove.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's just an important thing.
David: Is it? [laughs]
Seth: I don't know, but I-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... always think it should be important. [laughs]
David: I know. I feel like the commentators are divided. Some people talk about the fact that Noah, w- here we see Noah's, like, ingenuity and-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and, and cleverness that he would use birds, or that he was patiently waiting on God to tell him whether-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or not it's time to go. Um, other people obviously want to look at it as a type of, like, the Holy Spirit-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where you have this dove, and-
Seth: See, I don't know of any-
David: And it's like-
Seth: ... other places in the Bible doves are mentioned-
David: Right
Seth: ... beside this story and-
David: And-
Seth: ... the dove falling on Jesus at baptism
David: ... at baptism-
Seth: Right
David: ... which, which ba- baptism and, and flood-
Seth: Right, and like-
David: ... in the New Testament put together. So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yeah, but I'm like-I, I don't know. I, I don't know what the dove represents here in this story and like-
Seth: I don't know, like, he's like fluttering over the waters-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... looking for things. Maybe it's this Holy Spirit that was oh, anyway. Well, if you don't see anything, I was wondering-
David: I think, I, I mean-
Seth: ... if I poked your mind enough-
David: Maybe the, the first thing that-
Seth: ... and Jesus came out [laughs]
David: The, if I poked your mind enough, Jesus comes out.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I think the thing that I think is, um, you have the, the dove coming back or, or it doesn't come back, right? Is whenever, whenever Moses actually leaves is Moses is this new representative head, and he goes out and starts to fulfill the creation mandate after the dove doesn't return.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? With Jesus, he, after the flood waters of b- of his baptism, the dove comes on him, the dove comes back, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he is the new representative head who then goes out and fulfills the creation mandate, right? So-
Seth: Right, right. So-
David: It, it could be something like that
Seth: ... but you're not convinced of what you just said. [laughs]
David: I don't- no, I'm not. But I'm like, I could see it, but it feels a little allegorical to me. It doesn't feel-
Seth: Paul used allegory?
David: Yeah, but there's a, there's, there's some-
Seth: Rubber stamp that business.
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: There's a, there's a responsible allegor- we need to do a whole episode on-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... responsible allegory.
Seth: Regardless-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of the dove and the, its significance, Noah and his family are a new, a new royal family.
David: That's right.
Seth: New royal emperors.
David: New Adam and Eve.
Seth: New Adam and Eve, intended to build the garden, and we see him doing it. He builds vineyards.
David: Yes.
Seth: He starts making things. But as soon as he starts, uh, but, oh, before then, the covenant, right?
David: The covenant.
Seth: We- so he's supposed to be this person, and God makes a covenant with Noah, just like he made a covenant-
David: Right
Seth: ... with Adam and Eve.
David: Right, which you hinted at a little bit already.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yep. But, but there's some new elements to it, too, right?
Seth: Right.
David: So there's the murder, like the, the, the, the mandate murder, murder mandate, the no murder mandate.
Seth: Right.
David: I'm trying to think of a snappy term for it.
Seth: The no murder mandate.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And it's, it's important because humanity has tried this experiment once before-
David: Right
Seth: ... and it failed.
David: Because of murder.
Seth: Because of murder.
David: Right away.
Seth: Like-
David: Cain and Abel
Seth: ... Cain and Abel, the, the first-
David: Sin, sin-
Seth: Like, yeah
David: ... outside of the garden
Seth: ... outside the garden was murder.
David: Right.
Seth: And so God's saying, "Okay, I know this is the tendency of people in this world."
David: So intense.
Seth: [laughs] So-
David: It's like-
Seth: Such a s-
David: It's like you would just expect, like, a slippery slope. Like, man, you, oh, man, you started from, and you ste- you stole something from your brother. Nope. You just murdered him.
Seth: You just murdered him. Well, and I mean, and Jesus picks it up. Like, if you're angry with your brother-
David: That's, that's the same thing
Seth: ... and so I think, too, like, we should probably take stock of ourselves as human beings. Like, what's one of the-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, it, we're, we're not as insulated from the ability to kill our fellow man as we think.
David: Right.
Seth: And again, what's one of the most common themes in post-apocalyptic literature?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Is that when the world g- when the, when the normal constraints of the world are off of us, what happens?
David: Everybody starts killing each other.
Seth: We'll destroy each other.
David: Right.
Seth: The, and like, it, there, we recognize there's something in the human heart that tends towards death.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think the Bible recognizes that, and so he's saying the first, in this new, in this new Eden, he's saying, "Don't kill each other."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Your hearts are gonna be tempted towards it, but that is not the way of the Lord."
David: Right.
Seth: "That is not the way of the new world."
David: Right.
Seth: "That's not the way of God."
David: Well, because m- like, killing is the opposite of the creation mandate. [laughs] Be fruitful and multiply, not subtract-
Seth: Right
David: ... right, and divide. It's like [laughs] try to-
Seth: [laughs] Be fruitful and multiply. Don't, don't be fruitless and subtract or something like that.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I don't know. I'm not a math guy. But, uh, yeah, so I think that's, that's interesting. And then there's also this rainbow that we're given, right? The rainbow is here in this story, um-
David: Hence the promise that God will never flood the earth again.
Seth: Right. And I love so, so much the Jesus Storybook Bible.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And they have this line in here. When you think about a bow, and he, he doesn't even describe it as a rainbow. He said, "There will be a bow-
David: A bow
Seth: ... in the sky." And so anybody, we think about a rainbow, and we think about unicorns and leprechauns.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But, like, they, their mind would have seen, like, an arr- a bow-
David: A bow and arrow
Seth: ... and arrow.
David: Correct.
Seth: And if you look at a, a rainbow that way, where is the arrow, where would the arrow be pointed?
David: Up into heaven.
Seth: Up into heaven. So God's wrath comes down.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He promises never to flood-
David: He's put his bow down
Seth: ... he's put his bow down.
David: Right, his, his, yeah, he's put it down.
Seth: Instead of aiming the arrow at heaven-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... he rests it, and the arrow would be resting right towards the heart of God.
David: Right.
Seth: And Sally Lloyd-Jones in this Jesus Storybook Bible says that's an image of what happens in Jesus Christ.
David: Mm.
Seth: The wrath is no longer pointed at the earth.
David: Pointed at us.
Seth: It's pointed back at God.
David: Wow.
Seth: How do we escape the wrath of God? How do we escape an un- a oncoming flood? It's not because we're great-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but because God has set in the covenant of Moses that the bow would no longer be pointed towards humans. It would be pointed towards himself.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if you trust in the bow, if you trust in that image, you'll be saved.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The new Eden will come.
David: Mm. Man, that's really good.
Seth: That's so beautiful. [laughs]
David: That's really beautiful.
Seth: So beautiful.
David: I'll never look at a rainbow the same way again.
Seth: I know. [laughs]
David: It's so good.
Seth: It's a symbol of war.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the war is on-
David: God
Seth: ... God's side.
David: God's gonna wage war against himself to save us, which is insane. Um, I've also heard, this, this is, yours is way better. So-
Seth: [laughs]
David: So this is, if this was the top of the rollercoaster, the most fun, you're about to be at the end where you're like, "Oh, I can tell we're about to be back at the little loading bay."
Seth: Where you start braking?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, okay, never mind.
David: You're like, "Ah, it's over." But I thought it was interesting that you have, like, um, these, you had this s- all these spiritual beings at the beginning of, of a, of Genesis, and you have, like, the serpent, and then you have the Nephilim. You have the sons of God running around, and, um, I've heard also that it was said that the bow is, like, a boundary line that God puts in the sky.
Seth: Oh.
David: You know, 'cause also it's like you have God walking in the cool of the day, and then he's a little bit farther from Cain and Abel, then it feels like he's a little bit farther from Noah, and he's like, he's withdrawing, too-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and going back up into the heavens. And so God's kinda also putting a boundary line there with the, with the bow saying, like, "I, I'm not gonna l- I'm not gonna cross this line-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for a while." I, I don't know. I've heard commentators talk about this, which-
Seth: It could be-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but I think, I mean, he says, "And God said this is a sign of the covenant-
David: Right
Seth: ... that I made between you and every-"
David: It doesn't say, it doesn't say anything about-
Seth: Well, it's like, it's a sign of promise.
David: Right.
Seth: It's a sign of presence-
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the new Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So maybe.
David: Anyway.
Seth: Maybe.
David: Maybe.
Seth: But it might not be. [laughs]
David: I like yours way better. [laughs] Um, yeah.
Seth: So we have a new Eden.
David: We have a new Eden.
Seth: We have a new c- covenant.
David: Yep.
Seth: We have promises that-The, the curse will no longer fall on humanity, but it will fall on the Lord somehow mysteriously
David: Mm.
Seth: And what do we do with the promise? What do we do with our new Eden?
David: We get drunk.
Seth: We get drunk.
David: [laughs]
Seth: We get drunk. Uh, th- we eat the fruit.
David: Yep.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Oh.
Seth: [laughs] Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: We eat the fruit.
David: Yeah, we enjoy the fruit, yeah.
Seth: And we get drunk.
David: Which, enjoying the fruit wasn't the wrong, the wrong part. And, and really even the drunkenness, I've heard commentators talk about how this is an incident, or like an, like an-
Seth: Right
David: ... accident of the story. It's not ... The, the main sin of the story is not Noah's drunkenness.
Seth: It's the fact that Canaan walks in on his father, and that's kind of [laughs] all the information-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we're told.
David: Naked.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uncovers his father's nakedness.
Seth: Uncovers his father's nakedness, which is-
David: Which-
Seth: So let's talk about this.
David: Yeah
Seth: This is ki- we don't know, we don't know what happens in the tent.
David: We don't.
Seth: But uncovers his father's nakedness is a loaded term.
David: It is. In, in Leviticus, in, like, in the law, right, it means have sex with.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like wait, what? [laughs] Like, do we already have, like, some kind of sodomy happening right after the f-
Seth: Right
David: ... like incest?
Seth: That's so intense. Right. It could be that.
David: Right.
Seth: It could be a sexual sin of another kind 'cause not all wh- un- to uncover somebody's nakedness doesn't-
David: Oh, it doesn't have to mean intercourse
Seth: ... doesn't have to mean-
David: Right
Seth: ... intercourse.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It could mean that he just saw his father naked and used the opportunity to make fun of him-
David: Right
Seth: ... to ridicule him-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to invite his other brothers in, which is he does.
David: He does.
Seth: To, like, join in i- into his mockery.
David: And they do it respectively. They walk in backwards and cover their father's nakedness.
Seth: Right, but making fun of Abraham doesn't seem like-
David: Or Noah
Seth: ... or Noah, doesn't seem like it's deserving of the-
David: Of, yeah, exactly
Seth: ... the punishment he receives
David: ... the crazy punishment that's coming
Seth: So whatever's happening, this is a, a picture just like Cain and Abel was a picture of the murder that happens-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you know, the, like, the, the anger that our heart feels. This is a picture of, like, some type of lust-
David: Right
Seth: ... some type of desire, some type of-
David: Extreme brokenness
Seth: ... perverted longing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... extreme brokenness that deserves-
David: Right
Seth: ... to be cursed.
David: Right, and if it is s- I mean, it has to be sexual of some sort. A- and if it is, it's a direct violation of the new command that God just gave, to be fruitful and multiply, right? Like, Canaan, go sleep with your wife-
Seth: Right
David: ... and have children to populate this new Eden.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: Don't go do this unholy, unimaginable, terrible thing with your father. Like, whatever it was, like, you're, you're, you're perverting everything. Like, and there is this sexual sin idea carried over from the Nephilim story where there's broken sexuality happening, and it's happening again right afterwards. And so, um, there is something really shameful occurring here in the tent with Noah and Canaan. Which-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's Canaan's original name?
Seth: Ham.
David: Right.
Seth: Ham.
David: Right, right, right. Okay. So, um, then, then Noah goes in to curse Ham. No, you wanna go there yet?
Seth: Well, I, I was just thinking, I think, remember we talked about in the story of Cain and Abel, like, that functions as a piece of wisdom literature that you're supposed to meditate over and try to figure out why did God not accept Cain's offering.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And here I think you have something else happening, like what did happen in the tent?
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think you're supposed to wrestle with precisely how y- what happened, hold those things in your mind, and wonder how you might have committed the same thing.
David: Mm.
Seth: In the new garden with the new ruler, with your father, and trying to create this world, and you see someone who's incapacitated. Are you tempted to take advantage of people who are there?
David: Mm.
Seth: And even the words here, their faces were turned backwards, it's the same language that God used, uh, towards Cain. He turned his face away from him.
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: And then he's l- and then don't you know that if you, uh, do good, your face will be turned back to me.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So there's this idea of, like, intimacy and closeness with the father that's related to our intimacy and closeness with our brother.
David: Right.
Seth: And that can be perverted and gone wrong very quickly.
David: Yes, and God even links those two in the murder mandate, right? He says, "Do not murder because man is made in my image."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so to do violation against your, against your fellow man is to do violation against me.
Seth: Right.
David: So he's linking those, so that, I think that's a fair jump to make.
Seth: I think the fall, all these fall narratives should cause us as readers to examine ourselves and say am I more like these characters than I care to admit?
David: Right.
Seth: Would I make the same mistake in Adam and Eve if I think about it?
David: Yep.
Seth: Would I make the same mistake as Cain and Abel if I was given the opportunity?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Would I do the same thing that sh- Ham did?
David: Right.
Seth: I might. And if that's the case, we deserve cursing.
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: That's-
David: Right
Seth: ... yeah.
David: Which is, so the, the creation and fall story continues.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? New Eden, new fall, new curse.
Seth: New pride-
David: Right
Seth: ... new-
David: Right
Seth: ... results.
David: So, so-
Seth: New consequences
David: ... instead of God coming to A- Adam and Eve and giving them a curse and a blessing, he also has Genesis 3:15 in there, right?
Seth: Right. Yeah, yeah.
David: Where there's a promise. Noah comes, and he's God's new mouthpiece in a sense, and he curses Ham and blesses Shem and Japheth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And so you have this new recapitulation of Genesis 3, the fall narrative.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And basically he says, "Ham, who will be Canaan, uh, you're cursed forever," basically.
Seth: And your brothers will rule over you.
David: And your brothers will r- rule over you. And, um, and, and so y- we, we see here we have this enmity that we talked about.
Seth: Mm.
David: Um, the splitting of the seed. Uh, there's some that will be the seed of Eve and some that will be the seed of the serpent from the beginning of this story.
Seth: Right.
David: And here it is. The separation is here again, blessing and curse, right? Chosen, unchosen-
Seth: So you're saying-
David: ... in and out
Seth: ... so another, another parallel between all the fall narratives is that in Adam and Eve we're told there would be two different lines.
David: Right.
Seth: The seed of the serpent, the seed of the woman.
David: Yep.
Seth: In Cain and Abel, we have two different lines. It's the sons of Cain and the sons of Seth. And here again with Ham and with n- uh, Shem and Japheth-
David: Yep
Seth: ... uh, we have two different lines.
David: Yep.
Seth: The sons of Ham and the sons o- of-
David: Of Shem
Seth: ... of, of Shem.
David: Right.
Seth: The, the faithful ones.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah, okay.
David: So we have this separation continuing to happen, and then we see it play out, right? So we don't have to guess. Like, this is, this is what Genesis always does. Through the whole book it does this, is you have the splitting, and then you, and then the, the narrative proves that the choice to bless the one over the other was correct. And so the, the line of Ham, Canaan, ends up at the Tower of Babel-Right? But then the line of Sh- of Shem ends up leading us, we- we'll talk about next week, w- with-
Seth: Abraham
David: ... to Abraham, which is God's chosen covenant partner.
Seth: So immediately after, we're told that Ham will serve his brothers.
David: Yep.
Seth: His brothers will rule over him, that he will be s- subservient to them. We get a long genealogy detailing-
David: That's right
Seth: ... the g- generations of Ham's descendants.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And by the time you get to the end of that list, and there's 70 names in that list-
David: Right
Seth: ... you get this, another fall narrative.
David: Yes.
Seth: The Tower of Babel, another incident of human pride believing, and in this story particularly, that they can reach up and touch the heavens and be like God.
David: Right. Instead of God putting them on the mountain in the Garden of Eden, instead of God resting the ark on top of the mountain after the flood, they build their own mountain, and they will... This is the Tower of Babel, a ziggurat-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this tall temple that would serve as a mountain peak for man and God to live together. They're form-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they're trying to form their own Eden. This is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this is Eve at the tree again, trying to be God, trying to get it for himself.
Seth: They're trying to make, they're making their own Eden, and they're making a religion for themselves-
David: That's right
Seth: ... around themselves.
David: Yep.
Seth: They're making a temple dedicated to their own pride-
David: Their own pride. [laughs]
Seth: ... and their own ability, and their own ingenuity.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the Lord sees that line of Ham making that type of world, and he says, "That's not, that is not the way of the Lord."
David: No.
Seth: "That is not, the purpose of creation is not to exalt yourself. It is not to make a religion around who you are and what you can accomplish and what you can do. It's to trust in me to bring about the promise."
David: That's right.
Seth: And that's why we- as soon as the [laughs] Tower of Babel happens, you get another genealogy of faithful Shem leading to the promise that God will bless the nations of the world through Abraham.
David: Right, and, and let's, let's talk-
Seth: Right
David: ... about that because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the end of the Babel story is God says, uh, "Look what they do- look what they're doing. If, if, if they can continue to work together, nothing will be impossible for them." And that's not God saying, "Oh, no, they're gonna get up into heaven and take over." He's saying, "They will continue to, uh, just fall deeper into their own pride. They, like, it will be, like, they'll just continue to be hard-
Seth: Right
David: ... they'll continue to build this city, and they will completely ignore me." Um, and so he ends up separating them, confusing their language and spreading them out all across the face of the earth into all nations, right? And then the next thing we get, this line of Shem, right?
Seth: Right.
David: We get, what we're gonna find out next week, is that God then makes a covenant with Abraham to bless those nations.
Seth: Right.
David: So God, even those people-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that he has punished and spread out and confused their language, he has a program to then go and save and bless them too. Like, God's mercy knows no bounds. [laughs] It's so crazy.
Seth: It's like a reverse fall.
David: Fall. It's a, and it's a reverse flood, that instead of judgment going all the way a- around the world, he's gonna bring salvation to cover the whole world. And, like, that is the picture that we get in, like, Habakkuk and in Revelation that when you talk about in, in com- in combination with the flood, is that the flood brought God's wrath over the whole world. But Habakkuk shows us that it's God's desire to cover the world with his glory as waters cover the sea. Like, he wants his whole-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like, which is Eden.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? That was the plan of Eden.
Seth: Nice.
David: And then what do we get in Revelation? It's not, it's not us building a tower up to God, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And it's not God living up on some mountain either. It's, "Behold, the dwelling of God has come to earth."
Seth: Mm.
David: "And he makes his dwelling with us, and his whole glory covers the whole world." Like, amazing.
Seth: Amazing.
David: It's a new flood, but it's a good flood. It's the flood of God's glory covering the face of the earth that we get to enjoy instead of drown under.
Seth: And what's amazing-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... even still, is that the types of people that God uses are not particularly spectacular.
David: Oh, no. Right.
Seth: Like Noah, the covenant to Noah, he gets, he gets drunk.
David: Right.
Seth: Ham, uh, uh, She-
David: Shem, yep
Seth: ... the line of Shem isn't particularly spectacular.
David: No.
Seth: Abraham will continue to sin, just like his father.
David: Yep.
Seth: But regardless of the types of people, God will still use those people, precisely those people, to save the world from the demonic forces, from the evil that's in it, the pride that exists within it, and he will, he will accomplish it. Have you seen Bird Box?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And so, like, we had that same story in Bird Box. You had this pocu- post-apocalyptic nightmare-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where these evil forces-
David: Right
Seth: ... are s- rampant throughout the world, and who ends up being the heroes of the story? The blind.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: The people that you least expect.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And-
David: Spoiler alert
Seth: ... spoiler alert. Sorry, guys. [laughs]
David: Too late.
Seth: It's the people that you least expect.
David: Right.
Seth: God, uh, God, but, like, it's, it's a reverse fall narrative.
David: Yeah.
Seth: How will the fall be undone? By the people you least expect-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and by the power of God. [gentle music]
David: Okay, uh, before we wrap up, 'cause I wanna end with talking about how Jesus-
Seth: Jesus
David: ... really fulfills the flood and everything like that, and talk a little bit about baptism. But before we do that-
Seth: And even Babel, how Jesus fulfills Babel
David: ... yes, we should talk about that as well.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, uh, we gotta talk about the competing or, you know, like, the other-
Seth: Alternate
David: ... the alternate, that's a, that's a good word, flood narratives of the time. 'Cause this has been a stumbling block for a lot of people. It's messed them up. A- a- and if you don't know about it, here it is. [laughs] It's that there are tons of other flood narratives from around this time all over the world.
Seth: Chinese, Chinese people have them.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, the Greeks-
David: Native Americans have them.
Seth: The Greeks have them.
David: Yep. They're, they're every-
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like, almost every culture that we have, like, fragments of writings from have some kind of flood narrative.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and, uh, but the clo- and, and a lot of them have a lot of similar stories.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Mainly because how, what are, what are some of the ways that you could escape a flood other than being on high ground and, like-
Seth: Being in a boat. [laughs]
David: Yeah. I mean, like, so, like, those things are kind of just coincidental. How else are you gonna get through a flood? The closest comparison we have is, um, from the Babylonians, right, which were contemporaries of-... of these people.
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And, and it's the, it's called the Epic of Gilgamesh, which some, some of you might have heard of, and, um, it's very similar to this story-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, in terms of its narrative pieces, not its message. That's the, that's the humongous difference.
Seth: So what you're ... So let me just make sure that-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... I think we're saying something similar here that we said about the genre of Genesis.
David: That's correct.
Seth: We, the author of Genesis is taking common literary forms of the day and subverting them to his own, to his own ends, to preach his own message, right?
David: Maybe.
Seth: Is that what you're saying?
David: Maybe. I think this one might be a little different-
Seth: Okay
David: ... honestly, because it, it would be a little bit easier to understand everyone has a creation myth. Let me tell you a creation myth that shows us who Yahweh is.
Seth: Right.
David: I think this is different in that this is a very historical event.
Seth: Mm.
David: Uh, anyway.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: But again, like I was ... Even like everyone has a post, a p- a story of the post-apocalypse.
David: Right.
Seth: But, like, this one subverts our expectations of what to hope for.
David: Definitely. Yeah.
Seth: Right.
David: And, and why it came-
Seth: Right
David: ... and what its result is and all those things.
Seth: I think I want ... Like, any of our listeners who are like, "I don't know if I can buy into a flood narrative," I'll say I, I think you should probably consider the historical claims-
David: You should
Seth: ... behind this because Jesus will reference this, the flood, at various times, and so you need to, you need to take that seriously.
David: Right.
Seth: The-
David: The New Testament took the flood seriously.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right.
Seth: So you should, too.
David: Right.
Seth: But at the end of the day, you can read the flood narrative as literature-
David: Right
Seth: ... intending to communicate to you a worldview.
David: Yes.
Seth: So don't let the craziness of a worldwide flood just shake you off-
David: Right
Seth: ... the Book of Genesis.
David: And m- more and more commentators are coming to the side of a localized flood.
Seth: Yes.
David: That this wasn't a worldwide flood. It was local. The wor- the, the word used for, like, the world is the same word for, like, a geographical area, a nation.
Seth: If you take this story and end up just wanting to debunk whether or not a flood happened-
David: Right
Seth: ... or prove whether it did happen, you're missing the point-
David: You're missing the point
Seth: ... the point of the story.
David: The s- the point of the story isn't could Moses have fit all these animals on the boat.
Seth: The point is what happens when the world is destroyed.
David: That's right. And who is God?
Seth: And who is God?
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. And so anyway, so the Epic of Gilgamesh, right, um, you have a lot of the similar stories. The, the gods, um, uh, are, are, are just, like, angry up in heaven. They, they're, like, getting drunk and everything like that, and they're like, "Let's flood the earth," you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, and so they decide to, and one, um, of the gods sneaks out and comes and lets the hero of the story, the Noah of the story, know about it, and he's like, "Hey, dude, here's the deal. The gods are mad. They're gonna flood the earth. You should build a boat, okay?" [laughs]
Seth: Okay.
David: And so he does it, right? And kind of everything transpires the same way. It floods. He rests on a mountain. Uh, he even sends out birds, right? He, he, he brings animals on the boat, along with some, like, craftsmen, so it's not just his family. There's a few differences there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, he sends out birds.
Seth: But it's presumably Ham, Shem, and Japheth had skills-
David: Right. Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... other than-
David: Sure, sure, sure
Seth: ... being sons. [laughs]
David: Yes. [laughs] And, uh, but it, for him, it's not the ... It's, it's the raven that goes out and, and, and is the sign, not the dove, so, like, anyway, just an interesting thing-
Seth: Right
David: ... for your favorite part of the story.
Seth: Maybe that's why the dove's important.
David: It might be. Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, and then he comes out, and, um, there's ... Oh, we didn't talk about this, but we need to. Um, and he sacrifices. He makes a sacrifice just like Noah did. Noah made a s- a sacrifice to God-
Seth: After the flood
David: ... after the flood.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and he does it, too, but the ... So it's very similar, all these things.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: But the reason behind them and what they're telling us about god or gods is extremely different. So there's this-
Seth: In Gilgamesh, the gods are capricious-
David: That's right
Seth: ... drunk-
David: Yep
Seth: ... just as prone to folly and-
David: Yep
Seth: ... debauchery as the rest of mankind.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And-
David: And, and, and the salvation that takes place is, like, a rebellion among the gods.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, it's one god sneaking out and telling about it, right?
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, it's not like an act of God's grace, right?
Seth: Right. And think about, again, like, we're talking about fall, fall narratives.
David: Yep.
Seth: The narrative of the fall is that humans rebelled against the one true God, and the world fell apart.
David: Yep.
Seth: In this story, the gods cannot be trusted.
David: Yep.
Seth: And if we rebel against the gods, we will be free.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's literally-
David: The opposite
Seth: ... this lie-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Satan told-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Eve.
David: Yes.
Seth: The z- flood narrative is com- battling a narrative that has been [laughs] in the universe-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... since the beginning of time-
David: Right
Seth: ... and throughout all societies, and a lot of these flood narratives-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the gods can't be trusted.
David: They can't, right.
Seth: If we rebel against their wishes, we can live the good life.
David: Yes, exactly.
Seth: And the, our flood story comes and says, "No."
David: It's the exact opposite.
Seth: "The gods are good."
David: Yep.
Seth: "You're destroying the-"
David: "You are the one who's capricious and terrible."
Seth: "And w- I will confirm you in that."
David: Yep.
Seth: "I will punish you for it but still give you grace."
David: Yes. Amazing. And then, um, the other really interesting thing we learn about Go- uh, about the gods in the Epic of Gilgamesh is at the, at the sacrifice, [laughs] the reason why the, the floods stop i- and, and the, and the f- the waters subside is because the gods start to starve to death because no one's making sacrifices to them. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: And so literally they're starving to death, and they're like, "This flood was a terrible idea. No one's giving us any food." So they're dependent on humans, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And so they let the floodwaters subside. They end up, like, killing the god whose idea the flood was in the first place, and then, um, they, and then they're like, "Great. Get the flood down. I'm so glad they saved this one dude and sacrificed so we can eat," right? A- instead, in, in our narrative, it's, has nothing ... The, the flood, the floods subsiding has nothing to do with God being hungry or needing something from us.
Seth: It's to show mercy.
David: It's mercy, pure mercy, and then whenever, um, um, Noah sacrifices, right, it, it's not, God doesn't lick his lips and come and eat. We're just told that it's a pleasing aroma, that, that this man that God has saved is acceptable.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, that's what this is. It's, it's this relationship is going to work.
Seth: Right.
David: And-
Seth: He offers a sacrifice that Cain did not. He's acceptable-
David: Exactly right
Seth: ... before the Lord.
David: Yes, exactly right. And so, um, that, like, the way they compare a- are-
Seth: So just-
David: ... very different, but I wanna, I wanna, like, I wanna make a, a statement about why, like, why this shouldn't bother youAnd actually why rival flood narratives should actually increase your faith in the historicity of the one flood that the Bible talks about is because, think about it, if there was a massive flood that killed the world, right, and preserved this one group of people, do you think that Shem, Ham, and Japheth told their kids about this harrowing experience?
Seth: And the nations that scattered, that's how they scattered across the world.
David: They all took that story with them.
Seth: Right.
David: And then, but then like they perverted it and they, you know, expounded on it and Satan probably spoke into it and was like, oh, mess it up like this. This will really lead people astray. Like he keeps telling lies. And then like way later when, you know, 400, way, way more than that, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years later when Moses comes on the scene and is meeting with God and God tells Moses the actual way the flood story happened, he's like, let me correct all the misguided ways people have remembered this story.
Seth: Think about Ham who does this terrible thing against his father. His dad gets drunk. He does something that like is inappropriate.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But like, let's just say that one of Ham's descendants was the person who wrote the Epic of Gilgamesh.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What's Ham's opinion of the gods? Oh, they're capricious.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: They get drunk just like my dad. He never gave me the authority that I wanted to.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: So you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to tell a story where he's the bad guy, where the gods are the bad guys, where the fall is the fact that, you know, the gods are withholding.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they're not giving me what I want.
David: I got cursed, man.
Seth: And I'll take it if I need to.
David: That's right.
Seth: Which is exactly what happened the fall.
David: Yes.
Seth: So even if you don't accept a historical flood narrative, think about the genius of the author of Genesis.
David: Right.
Seth: Let's just say he's taking some genre of literature that was a common way to tell a story like the post-apocalyptic, like the zombie story had been told a million times. So let's just say he's taking a zombie story and like repurposing it to talk about the true God. How brilliant is this story?
David: Yeah.
Seth: What's the more compelling narrative to you?
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: The one that says the gods are capricious or the one that says God's profoundly merciful and we're the ones that are capricious?
David: Yes. Yeah. It's amazing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then take the story of the gospel, right? And how the gospel then takes this story and shows us the real meaning of it, right? That God is not capricious, that God has turned the bow toward himself, right? Because Jesus comes, right? And he bears the flood of the curse that was against mankind. Like he takes it on himself. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why have you turned the bow against heaven, God? Like why are you aiming it at your son? Like I was supposed to be Noah in the ark and I am the only person out here under the flood.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like what have you done? You've forsaken me. And that's just so amazing.
Seth: The Christian story is a truly unique story.
David: Yes.
Seth: People think by fulfilling their sexual appetites, by living the enlightened postmodern 21st century life, that they're doing something original and brave. It is literally as old as the universe. Sin is profoundly unoriginal.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: It is profoundly simple and it's profoundly like unenlightened.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's what people have been doing for millions, thousands, however long people have been around.
David: Right.
Seth: Years.
David: Yes.
Seth: And there's only one unique story that says that humans are made for more than enduring the chaos. They're made to stretch the bounds of God's kingdom. They're actually imprints of the divine. They carry the fire and they are incredibly valued by the Lord. And his desire is to show them mercy upon mercy, grace upon grace, even if it means killing himself to give it to them.
David: Yeah. There's no other story like that.
Seth: No other story.
David: Yeah. It's amazing. And so what's cool is the New Testament authors pick up on this flood narrative and they say that by us going through the waters of baptism, we are put in the ark with Jesus basically. That when we go under the waters of baptism, we are dying the death we should have died under the flood like the rest of mankind in this story in Genesis. But when we come out, we're risen to new life out of the waters like Noah was and we're safe with Jesus and like we're covered with him. We get just like the Shem and Japheth and Ham got to go into the boat because of Noah's blamelessness, we get to go into the ark because of Jesus' blamelessness. We're baptized into adoption, into him. It's just so amazing. And I think we have to make sure if the flood story is still bothering you and you're like, man, I just can't believe that God is that wrathful, right? I think you need to chasten it with the cross and understand, yes, God is very wrathful against sin, but we need to see that ultimately he bears that wrath himself.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so however wrathful he is, he is infinitely more gracious and merciful. And so you have to take those two things hand in hand and understand that God still has wrath against sin, right?
Seth: Right.
David: But he has given us a way to be free from the flood in the body of Jesus.
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com.
