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Genesis 22-27: Isaac

About This Episode

Isaac, the son who made Abraham and Sarah laugh in response to the fulfilled promise God had made, carries on the blessing of God. How will the promise be brought about in the life of Isaac, and show us how Jesus is the new Isaac? In this episode, David and Seth dive into the story of Isaac's life, and how God spared his life on the mountain, in contrast to God not sparing his own son. He did not spare his son because he wants to show the world how indefinite, limitless his love is for man, declaring the promise of eternal life.

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Isaac, Trickery, and the God Who Provides: Genesis 22–27

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart continue their walk through Genesis on the Spoken Gospel podcast, turning from Abraham's story to the narrative arc of his long-awaited son Isaac. The episode traces how God's promises survive tests of faith, the sting of death, unlikely romances, and even outright deception — all pointing forward to Jesus.

A Test That Redefines Sacrifice

Genesis 22 opens with four of the most jarring words in Scripture: "After these things." After decades of waiting, after the biological miracle of a 90-year-old woman conceiving, after laughter finally arrived in the form of a baby boy — God tells Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering on Mount Moriah. The weight of the command cannot be overstated. God's entire plan for rescuing creation hangs on this one child, and now he is asking Abraham to lay that child on an altar.

It matters, though, that the narrator tells us upfront this is a test. God never intended for Isaac to die. All throughout the prophets and Deuteronomy, child sacrifice is one of the most abominable practices God rails against — a defining line between Yahweh and the gods of the surrounding nations. Yet even knowing this is a test, the narrative deliberately slows readers down. Every detail is given: Abraham saddles the donkey, stacks the wood, walks three days, loads the wood on his son's back, picks up the knife. Where most Genesis stories are sparse and compact, this one is saturated with detail, and the effect is overwhelming tension. Abraham told Isaac, "God will provide for himself the lamb," and Hebrews 11 tells us Abraham believed God could raise Isaac from the dead if it came to that. Still, no lamb appeared on the mountain trail. At the last possible moment, an angel stopped him.

What makes this story a turning point in Genesis is that Abraham succeeds where every previous "Adam" failed. In the Garden of Eden, the command was to trust God with no visible reason — and humanity failed. Cain failed. But here, Abraham obeys a command he cannot understand, and he does so with full trust in God's goodness. His faith becomes the basis on which the promise moves forward. And the Gospel turn is staggering: God does not require Abraham's son, because one day God will provide his own. What God did not demand of Abraham — the sacrifice of his only, beloved son — God required of himself, though he did not have to. Abraham's willingness to give up everything mirrors God's own heart, but with one critical difference: Jesus laid down his life willingly, not under anyone's command. He did it so the promise of blessing could go out to every nation on earth.

A Graveyard as a Down Payment

Sarah dies at 127, and Abraham sets out to secure a burial plot in the land of Canaan. Tradition would have called him to carry her body back to his homeland, but Abraham refuses. He insists on burying her in the promised land — another quiet act of faith. When the Hittites offer to give him land for free, he doubles down and insists on purchasing it legally, with his own money. No one can contest his ownership on any grounds.

This small, death-filled plot becomes the first tangible down payment on God's enormous promise. God had pledged Abraham an entire land, descendants as numerous as the stars, and blessing for all nations. And at the end of Abraham's life, all he owns is a grave. It feels insufficient, even disappointing — until you remember that the entire Bible keeps asking its readers to wait, to keep looking forward. The promised land would eventually come under Joshua, and even that would be lost to exile. But in Jesus, the scope of the inheritance explodes beyond Canaan. Jesus entered a borrowed tomb he did not even own, and from that small, sequestered place in Jerusalem, he rose from the dead and brought blessing to the whole earth. God provides through death. The graveyard is not the end of the story; it is the seed of a much larger one.

A 67-Verse Love Story and the Bride of the Messiah

With Sarah gone and Abraham nearing death, the narrative spotlight shifts to Isaac. The promised son needs a wife if the family line is to continue. Abraham sends a servant back to his homeland with strict instructions: find a woman from God's chosen people and bring her back to the promised land. Isaac himself cannot go, because God does not want him stuck outside the land of promise.

The servant prays for a specific sign — that the chosen woman would offer to water his camels — and God immediately answers. The reader is introduced to Rebekah before the servant ever figures out who she is, and the narrative stretches this dramatic irony across 67 verses. Why give so much space to what is essentially a matchmaking story? Because the point is not just that God provides; it is that God chooses, leads, and guides with meticulous care. When the servant finally realizes Rebekah is the one, he drops to his knees in worship. God has not only provided a wife; he has confirmed his faithfulness to the entire family line. Every detail — the gifts, the nose ring, the veil, the moment Rebekah sees Isaac meditating in the field — builds toward a wedding, and the Bible means for readers to feel the joy of it.

The episode draws a rich connection between this story and the New Testament image of Jesus as the bridegroom and the church as his bride. The servant adorning Rebekah with gifts mirrors how God adorns his people — spotless and without blemish, as Paul describes in Ephesians, or beautifully dressed like a bride for her husband, as John sees in Revelation. And the women-at-wells pattern in Genesis — Hagar, Rebekah, and later Rachel — finds its surprising fulfillment in John 4 when Jesus meets the Samaritan woman. Where Isaac's servant went to the chosen people to find the chosen woman, Jesus goes to an outsider, a Samaritan in deep brokenness, and procures for himself a bride from the most unlikely place. He is calling people from every nation, social class, and background to himself. Every time someone turns their heart to God, the servant's worship happens again: God has provided, God has chosen, and the promise continues.

Twins in the Womb and the Pattern of Divine Election

Rebekah conceives twins, and immediately the narrative echoes Cain and Abel. One will carry the promise; the other will not. But before either child has done anything good or evil, God tells Rebekah, "The older shall serve the younger." This is not a matter of merit — it is divine choice. The younger, weaker son named Jacob (meaning "heel-grabber" or "he cheats") is the one through whom the blessing will flow. Esau, the older, hairy, rugged firstborn, is set aside.

The story wastes no time showing how this plays out in messy, human terms. Esau comes in from the field starving and trades his entire birthright — his firstborn's share of the inheritance — for a bowl of Jacob's stew. It is a terrible deal, and Esau makes it because he cannot see past his immediate hunger to the long-term weight of the promise. Jacob, for his part, exploits his brother's desperation. This is not how anyone would expect a prophecy of God to unfold. Yet it leans into the deepest motif of Genesis: God working through the flawed, even evil, intentions of human beings to accomplish his purposes.

The Stolen Blessing and God's Relentless Faithfulness

As Isaac nears death, nearly blind, the moment comes for him to pass on the covenant blessing. Rebekah orchestrates a scheme: she dresses Jacob in Esau's clothes, covers his smooth skin with goat hair, and sends him in with Isaac's favorite meal. Jacob pretends to be Esau, and the half-blind patriarch — hesitant but convinced — pronounces the covenant blessing on him. This is not merely an inheritance of possessions; it is the passing on of the promise that stretches all the way back to Genesis 3:15. The blessing of Abraham, reaffirmed to Isaac, now lands on Jacob. When Esau arrives and discovers the deception, Isaac cannot undo it. There is only one line of promise, one seed, and it has been spoken over Jacob.

The episode highlights how, amid all this moral complexity, God doubles down on his faithfulness. Isaac repeats Abraham's sin of pretending his wife is his sister before a foreign king, yet God reaffirms the promise to him anyway: "I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven." The same pattern of human failure met by divine faithfulness that defined Abraham's life now defines Isaac's. The world of Genesis is growing more complicated — more people, more deception, more tangled relationships — and yet God is threading one line of promise through all of it toward a single chosen person.

What Man Intended for Evil, God Intended for Good

The great theme emerging from the Isaac narrative — and from Genesis as a whole — is that God uses even human evil to accomplish his redemptive purposes. This phrase, which will be stated explicitly at the end of Genesis in Joseph's mouth (Genesis 50:20), is already structurally present in every story. Jacob's trickery, Rebekah's scheming, Esau's short-sightedness — none of it derails God's plan. It all becomes the strange vehicle through which the blessing reaches the world.

Acts 2:23 captures this same reality in its sharpest form: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." The cross is the ultimate convergence of human evil and divine purpose. The forces of this world — Satan, Rome, religious leaders, Judas's betrayal — did not know what they were doing when they killed Jesus. As Paul writes, if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. There is a hiddenness to Jesus's identity, a kind of divine concealment in human flesh, that allowed the enemies of God to unwittingly accomplish the very thing that would destroy their power. What they intended for evil — the murder of God's Son — God intended for the greatest possible good: the redemption of the entire world. The complexity of Genesis, with its morally compromised heroes and tangled plotlines, is not a problem to be solved. It is the very canvas on which God paints his most stunning work. And it teaches readers to look at the cross not only through the lens of wrath and judgment, but through the profoundly hopeful lens of a God who has always been in the business of bringing blessing out of the worst that humanity can do.

Transcript

Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [gentle music]

David: All right. Welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We're glad you're with us.

Seth: We are.

David: We are very glad.

Seth: Mostly. I mean, 100%.

David: We're 100... We're not mostly glad you're with us.

Seth: We're not mostly glad. No.

David: We are overjoyed.

Seth: 100% glad.

David: Overjoyed that you're here. Uh, so last week we wrapped up our talk on Abraham.

Seth: That's right, we did.

David: And now we're jumping into laughter.

Seth: So much laughter.

David: Which is the name of Isaac. Yes.

Seth: The stand-up comedian of the Bible. [laughs]

David: The stand-up comedian of, of the Bible, Isaac. [laughs] His name means laughter, and, uh, we're gonna look at his story arc today and, um, see what we can pull out for you to, to help make Genesis a little more helpful and understandable and hopefully see Jesus.

Seth: The goal here is that whenever you go into your Bible study rooms-

David: Your Bible stu- You have a whole room for Bible study? [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] I mostly have a desk or a, a chair that I sit in-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... between being interrupted by children.

David: Yes.

Seth: But wherever you go to read your Bible, the goal here is that you're reading the Fall and Creation together.

David: Yep.

Seth: Uh, or the Fall and the other-

David: Creation and the Fall

Seth: ... Creation and the Fall-

David: Yep

Seth: ... all the way to Babylon-

David: Right

Seth: ... in one chunk, and then you're reading the story of Abraham-

David: Yep. Isaac

Seth: ... Isaac, Jacob-

David: Jacob

Seth: ... and then Joseph.

David: Joseph.

Seth: Five days.

David: Yep. Or something like that.

Seth: Something like that. [laughs]

David: Yeah. It, yeah, those are the big sweeping narratives of Genesis. So, um, Isaac is born. Uh, Abraham waited a long time, over 25 years, for this little boy to be born.

Seth: To his 90-year-old wife.

David: To his 90-year-old wife.

Seth: Can you think about the miracle that is?

David: Oh, it's so insane.

Seth: Like, you're literally, God literally had to reverse the aging process before-

David: Yes

Seth: ... he, the baby [laughs] could be born. It's crazy.

David: Yeah. There are, there are biological things in place that had to go backwards-

Seth: It's amazing

David: ... in order for this to occur. It's absolutely insane.

Seth: And the point of how amazing that is-

David: Mm

Seth: ... actually makes a- Genesis 22 feel overwhelming.

David: Oh, i- i- it's, it's so hard to read, actually.

Seth: The first words, "And after these things."

David: After these great and wonderful [laughs] things.

Seth: These amazing things that make you laugh because-

David: God tested Abraham-

Seth: Oh, no

David: ... and said to him, "Abraham." "Here I am." "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love,"

Seth: "Whom you love." [laughs]

David: ... "and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on the mountain of which I sent you."

Seth: Oh.

David: There is nothing in the text that prepares us-

Seth: No

David: ... for this.

Seth: No.

David: We've been waiting for this. I mean, God's entire plan for saving the world and restoring creation hangs on this one little boy, and now he's saying, "Go offer him as a burnt offering."

Seth: Y- yes, but-

David: But

Seth: ... this is a test.

David: Right.

Seth: And that's actually the first thing that you read. So a lot of time when you come to the story and think, like, God is actually asking Abraham-

David: Right

Seth: ... to kill somebody.

David: We're told it's a test.

Seth: We're told it, and that's, that-

David: It's the heading.

Seth: That's the heading.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's really important for us to understand.

David: It is.

Seth: Like, God never intends-

David: Never

Seth: ... to kill Isaac.

David: No. In fact, uh, all throughout the prophets and even in Deuteronomy, one of the most abominable practices of the other nations that God consistently rails against is child sacrifice. He constantly separates himself from other religions, one, based on idols, and two, based on child sacrifices. It's one of the most abominable things that God detests all throughout the Old Testament. So we need to know that God hates child sacrifice, never actually intended, uh, Abraham to kill Isaac. This is a test.

Seth: It's a test.

David: Okay.

Seth: And it forces you to just im- be in that moment-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... with Abraham. Every line of this just adds to the dramatic tension.

David: Oh, so much tension.

Seth: "And then he stacked the wood."

David: Oh, my god. [laughs]

Seth: "And then he saddled the donkey."

David: "And he held the knife."

Seth: "And then he, he picked up the knife."

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: "Then he walked three days."

David: Oh my god.

Seth: "Then he saw the mountain in the distance. Then he told the, his guides to go away. Then he loaded the wood on his son's back." It's like, [laughs] oh my. Like-

David: It's so much tension

Seth: ... you should read it and just pause after every fact because a lot of these stories are really-

David: Compact

Seth: ... there's no details.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And this one is full of them, so you just feel the weight-

David: Right

Seth: ... of this coming moment.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's, it's like-

David: The narrative's meant to slow you down

Seth: ... it's meant to slow you down-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... until you're-

David: Overwhelmed with just-

Seth: Overwhelmed

David: ... anxiety.

Seth: [laughs] Until the knife is stan- ho- being held-

David: Yep. Abraham

Seth: ... Abraham's hand above his son, and then an angel calls out, "Don't do it."

David: "Don't do it."

Seth: "Don't do it."

David: Right. [laughs] Oh my gosh. Yeah, and, uh, and, well, and like, you, y- it feels like Abraham knows that something is gonna happen, right? Because before, um, they even get up on the mountain, Isaac asks, um, "Well, okay, I see the knife and the wood, and we, we got everything for the offering, but where's the offering?" Right? Where's the-

Seth: And then-

David: ... where's the, where's the lamb?

Seth: And Abraham says, "God will provide."

David: "God will provide for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And, and then what's interesting is the New Testament gives us kind of a spin on this. Um, I think it's in Hebrews 11, I think, that talks about this.

Seth: Okay.

David: And it says that Abraham believed that God would have, would raise Isaac from the dead.

Seth: Oh.

David: Like, that's what he thought-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... the solution would be. That, like, even if I have to kill my son, God will raise him from the dead. So Abraham had faith. Maybe, like, here, it's like, okay, there'll be a, there'll be a lamb on the way. Okay, the, I didn't see a lamb.

Seth: Right.

David: This whole ti- I was looking for a... You can imagine him-

Seth: Right, yeah

David: ... walking up the mountain-

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: ... being like, "Is there a lamb over there? Is there a lamb?"

Seth: [laughs]

David: "No lam..." Like, is that another miracle that God performed to just keep all animals away from them on the hike? [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Like, where's... God's, uh, there's no lamb. I'm looking for a lamb everywhere. There's not one. Okay, fine. When the knife's in the air, the last moment of faith maybe Abraham has isI know God will raise him from the dead at least. But God didn't even make him go that far.

Seth: He didn't.

David: Right? Which is, which is so amazing. Uh, I, I don't wanna get ahead of ourselves, but I really wanna make a jump, but I'll wait.

Seth: Right. And so what we're seeing here is, again, what... On what basis-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... is the promise of God moving forward? It's on Abraham's trust.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Abraham's trust in the Lord.

David: Right.

Seth: He's willing to give up his only son. In fact, what... And it, and what... It must have felt like he was giving up his own life. Like-

David: Oh, yeah

Seth: ... you know, in one sense, like I, I... And it brings us to some of the commands of Jesus. "You must be willing to lose your life i- if you wanna find it."

David: Hmm.

Seth: "You must be able to forsake father, son, brothers, sons, like sons for me-"

David: Yeah

Seth: ... if you wanna be a part of my family."

David: Yeah. And it's also just, it's amazing to think about the faith that this takes is... 'Cause God said that the promise would be held in his offspring, that like through his offspring, all the nation of the world would be blessed. And so Abraham wants Eden to be restored. He wants to live in the land with God. He wants all nations to be blessed, and he's, he's banking on that happening through this son, and what God is saying is like, "I want you to trust that I could do it even without your son, even without this promise. Like, I could do it regardless." Like, it, it's just amazing how God wants us and our faith to be based solely on him and his ability alone-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... irregard- re- regardless of anything else that we might add to the table.

Seth: And this is also a retelling of the Eden narrative-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... in some way. They're on a mountain.

David: Oh, sure.

Seth: So we're, we're talk- like the, the... Where do, where do the l- l- the gods live?

David: Yep.

Seth: On the mountains-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in the gardens. And we're not necessarily told why God said to offer the-

David: Right

Seth: ... sacrifice. We're just told to trust him-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... which is what we're, we're told in the Garden of Eden, trust the Lord and His commandment not to eat the fruit.

David: Right.

Seth: It's what [laughs] we're told, uh, Cain and Abel are told, "Trust that the sacrifice-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is-

David: But the, the sacrifice-

Seth: ... with-

David: ... can be, can be accepted if... Yeah, mm-hmm.

Seth: If you do right. And what we normally find is we don't do it.

David: Right.

Seth: So this is actually the first time the Lord offers a commandment.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: And we're told to trust the Lord.

David: With no reason.

Seth: With no reason-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and somebody actually does.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So one of the... Even though Abraham is a, a morally compromised character, he is upheld throughout the o- New Testament for his faith.

David: Hmm.

Seth: And this is an example that he has failed, where actually all these other proto, these other Adams have failed too.

David: Oh, he succeeded where... Yeah.

Seth: He succeeded-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... where all the other Adams have failed to.

David: Right.

Seth: So we're supposed to see like hope-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that his line-

David: Right

Seth: ... might actually be the line that brings g- us back to-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the Garden of Eden.

David: Yeah. We've seen so much failure, so much confirmation that th- that the fall has taken over pretty much every square inch of planet Earth, and here is one last bastion of hope-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in this incalculable amount of faith that Abraham's showing in doing this, uh, like in completing this insurmountable task.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And what we find out is that his great faith, um, in the command, in the goodness of God, even when he commands, "Offer your own son," is that God does not require his own son.

David: He does not.

Seth: And-

David: He stops him

Seth: ... he stops him, because one day the Lord will provide his own.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Why does God actually spare Abraham's son? Because one day the Lord will provide his own son on the sacrifice.

David: Yep.

Seth: On the-

David: And he says, he says, "Now I know that you fear God, seeing how you would not withhold your son, your only son from me." And yet we have God not withholding His Son, His only Son from us.

Seth: Yes.

David: What he, what he does not require of Abraham, though he could have, he requires of himself, though he didn't have to.

Seth: And why? So that the promise would go out to us.

David: Yes.

Seth: The promise would continue.

David: Hmm.

Seth: It's amazing. So the... Normally when we talk about like the sacrifice of Jesus, we talk about like, about wrath and anger.

David: Right.

Seth: But this one's this profoundly positive way to think about the sacrifice of God's Son.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's so that the promise would go out.

David: Right.

Seth: In the same way that a son is necessary for future generations to come, a son is necessary for future blessing to come.

David: Right.

Seth: And God makes sure that none of us have to sacrifice our sons-

David: Right

Seth: ... because His Son is the one that's sacrificed. Our sons can live on.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We can spread the gospel. We can have children, and the promise will go to the ends of the earth.

David: Mm-hmm. And it wasn't, and it, and it wasn't, um, anyone else, uh, taking... Like putting the wood on Jesus' back, taking him up the mountain, you know, putting him on the altar of the cross. He says, "I lay my life down of my own, of, of my own will. I do this myself." Isaac was following commands, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Jesus was laying it down himself, like willingly-

Seth: And in re-

David: ... out of love

Seth: ... and in response to Abraham's, uh, Abraham's obedience, uh, we're given his immediate family line.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: And there's 12 of them.

David: Yep.

Seth: Just like there's gonna be 12 tribes of Israel-

David: Hmm. Yep

Seth: ... and like there were 12 sons of Ishmael earlier.

David: Right.

Seth: And how there will be 12 disciples. [laughs]

David: Yep.

Seth: Like-

David: Yep

Seth: ... those 12 disciples will go to all the nations of the world. Like the promises of God here are fulfilled in Jesus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He has 12 disciples, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... Abraham had 12 grandsons, and they go through all the nations of the world so that all the world will be blessed.

David: Yeah. It's amazing. And so after this harrowing event [laughs], um, we, we, we, we find out some sad news.

Seth: Yeah, Sarah dies.

David: Sarah dies at age 127.

Seth: Ripe.

David: Ripe old age-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... of 127. Uh, she dies, and, um, I, I mean, people are weeping bitterly for her, and then Abraham is in the land of the Hittites, right, which is part of the land of, the broader land of Canaan, which would be the promised land, and he is trying to secure a lot to bury his wife. And, um-

Seth: And remember-

David: Yep

Seth: ... it would've been tradition for him to go back home to the land of his fathers-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... and to bury his wife there.

David: No, no.

Seth: But God sent him out of the land of the-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... fathers. So this is another way in which Abraham-

David: It was faith

Seth: ... is-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... having faith.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so he offers to buy some land from the Hittites.

David: Right. And they're like, "No, no, no, you've been so great here. We love you. You've been really good for our economy." [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: "Uh, we'll just give it to you."

Seth: And Abraham ma- doubles down and said, "No, I must buy it."

David: Right.

Seth: Which can seem s- strange. Why-

David: It does seem weird that he's pushing on this

Seth: ... but I think the point is that-Abraham's comes by a slot, a little piece of plot of the promised land-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... legally by rights with his own money that God has provided for him.

David: Right.

Seth: So God has provided a slice of land in Canaan by all legal rights.

David: Mm.

Seth: No one can take that from him on any grounds.

David: Right.

Seth: It's Abraham's.

David: It's his. He owns it.

Seth: He owns it.

David: Yeah. And so, I mean, I, I think, I think it's you who've told me this before. Like, this is like a down payment-

Seth: Yes

David: ... on the, the promise of God, that this is, like, the first fruits, if you will, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Of God's promise.

Seth: God has promised Abraham this huge land-

David: Yep

Seth: ... all these nations, and this is the first time God's delivering on the promise.

David: Mm.

Seth: God's provided with him with all these riches, and those riches are now used to buy an, the burial plot.

David: Right. Which is, which is feels small.

Seth: Feels so, and I think it's supposed to, and it's filled with death.

David: It's small, and it's filled with death. I think the thing that Genesis continues to beg us to do with its narrative is to keep looking forward, to keep waiting. Right? To wait for this coming son. It's not here yet. Death is always around the corner. The promise is still being fulfilled. And, like, at the end of the patriarch Abraham's life almost, we're, we're almost there, all that he's gonna own by the end of it, 'cause he's gonna come back and die soon, and he's gonna be buried next to Sarah.

Seth: Right.

David: And all he's gonna own is a small piece of death land [laughs] inside the land of Canaan.

Seth: Graveyard.

David: It's like, man, that didn't quite work out like I thought it would when I was reading Genesis 12:1.

Seth: But it's from a graveyard that Jesus rises from the dead.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's from a grave that Jesus raises, and he has all authority over every tribe, nation, language, and tongue, and he sends out and calls for people all over the world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yes, there's a promised land in Canaan that we'll see in the Book of Joshua-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that eventually Israel owns.

David: Right.

Seth: But it's pulled back. They go into exile, whatever else.

David: Yep.

Seth: But in Jesus, the entire world becomes the inheritance-

David: Yes

Seth: ... of Abraham's righteous seed.

David: Yep.

Seth: The righteous line, the royal line of Abraham gets the whole world-

David: Right

Seth: ... in Jesus.

David: And what's amazing is, like, Abraham owned this tomb, you know? And from that tomb, from that place, that down payment, would come this whole nation of people who would live in this land. Jesus, on the other hand, goes into a borrowed tomb that he doesn't own, and from that small, little sequestered place in Jerusalem, he raises from the dead and, like you said, brings blessings to the whole earth. It's like, uh, we're just forced to see Abraham's grave plot and Jesus' grave plot as these-

Seth: The Lord-

David: ... parallel accounts

Seth: ... provides in death.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The Lord-

David: Through death

Seth: ... he provides.

David: Yeah. That's cool. [instrumental music]

Seth: So the narrative moves because Sarah's died, Abraham's about to die.

David: Right.

Seth: And really the focus becomes Isaac.

David: It's on you now, buddy.

Seth: Will Isaac continue on the family line?

David: Yeah.

Seth: How-

David: Or is he going to be the one, too, is probably what-

Seth: Oh, yeah

David: ... some people are wondering.

Seth: Will he bring us back to the garden?

David: Right.

Seth: So we're asking those questions.

David: Yep.

Seth: Isaac, the father of many nation thing hasn't quite happened yet.

David: No.

Seth: There's 12 sons.

David: Yep.

Seth: So we kind of have expectations that Isaac will have many, many children and start building this huge nation.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so the first problem is he doesn't have a wife.

David: Whoops.

Seth: So-

David: Gotta go get one of those

Seth: ... he goes, he goes a-courtin'. [laughs] He goes, he-

David: Isaac goes a-courtin'. [laughs] I like that. I like that. Like, that's the, that's the Netflix episode title for this, this chapter.

Seth: Yes, ancient dating.

David: Ancient dating.

Seth: Uh-

David: Okay, so he, and he has to, but he has to go back to his father's land to get a wife, right? Because this is the people that God has chosen. All that's around there are a bunch of Hittites.

Seth: Canaanites.

David: Yeah, and we ain't, we ain't, we ain't about to go down that path. And so, uh, but, but, but God, God doesn't want Isaac to get stuck in that land, 'cause it's not the promised land, right? And so he's like, "I don't even want Isaac to go a-courtin'. I'm gonna s- I, I need you to send one of your servants to go there."

Seth: "And I want you to find a woman from my people-"

David: Yep

Seth: ..."from this royal line."

David: "And bring her back."

Seth: "Bring her back to the promised land-"

David: Right

Seth: "... so that the nation of God can be in the kingdom of God-"

David: Yep

Seth: "... and succeed."

David: Yeah, exactly. And so he, he ends up making this, like, vow with his servant where... Is, isn't this the story where he puts his hand under his thigh or something?

Seth: Yeah. I think that was, like, a traditional, like-

David: Yeah, like a, a vow, like a promise or something.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I don't... We should do that. We sh- Instead of shaking hands on a deal-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... you should just put your hand under someone's leg and be like, "Yep, we got a deal." Yeah. Okay, great.

Seth: I can imagine just the sound of that making, like the sound of a hand slapping the backside of a thigh, just, like, really satisfying. Like, that's what a deal sounds like.

David: That's, that's what a deal sounds like.

Seth: [laughs] That's what a deal sounds like.

David: And so th- this d- this, this servant who's been, had an awkward handshake agreement made with him [laughs] goes to Abraham's homeland, and, um, he prays, right?

Seth: Yeah, he prays that the Lord would give fa- give him the wife Isaac needs.

David: Yes.

Seth: And immediately we're basically told in the story that God's gonna provide it, and he asks God, "When I find this woman-"

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: "... let her, make her give a drink to my camels. That's how I will know you've chosen somebody for me. This great, generous woman will feed my 12 thirsty camels," because that's a lot of water.

David: Yes.

Seth: "That's how I'll know the woman you've chosen for me."

David: Okay.

Seth: And then immediately-

David: Yep

Seth: ... we s- are introduced to, to the character Rebekah, who's the son, uh, the daughter-

David: The daughter

Seth: ... of one-

David: I hope so. [laughs]

Seth: The daughter of one, uh, in, in this royal family line.

David: Right.

Seth: So we already know who this wife is gonna be. We know it's gonna be Rebekah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: This is the person, but we have to wait.

David: The servant doesn't know it yet.

Seth: For, like, 15 verses-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... until the servant figures out that this person is-

David: Right

Seth: ... Isaac's wife.

David: He's a studious little servant.

Seth: He-

David: He wants to make sure he's doing the right thing.

Seth: He wants to make sure. And I think the point of that is that we... So there's this dramatic tension. We know who it is.

David: Right.

Seth: The servant doesn't know. Why? It's because one, once the servant finds out that this woman goes and gathers all the water for the camels, he bows down and worships the Lord-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... for providing for the, providing for the family line.

David: Right.

Seth: For providing for God's chosen people, and he worships God because of it.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so we're supposed to be p- put inside the, the, the, um, the face, the, the body-

David: Yeah, of the servant

Seth: ... of this servant, and we're supposed to worship God, that he is providing a way for his family to continue.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The chosen people is going on. God's nation will come. He's providing even wives.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, it's not just he's providing victory in battle. He's providing, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... a good wife.

David: And he does it through, like-It, it's crazy that God would acquiesce to a servant's prayer request too.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That it's like you've got this servant. This isn't, this isn't Isaac. This isn't the promised son who's coming to Yahweh and saying, "All right. I know this is really important. We've gotta carry on this promised seed." It's a slave, right? It's this servant, and he's going and he's like, "Okay, God, help me find the right woman." That's not even the prayer. He's like, "Okay, I want it to meet these criteria, water my cam- like, water my camels, do these things." And God, like, acquiesces and actually does it, which is just amazing, and no wonder the servant worshiped. He's like, "God heard my prayer, provided for my master this, this, this woman, and, like, r- like, actually responded." I- it's just amazing, like, the way that God actually, like, comes down and does things among us, that it, we should, it should cause us to worship.

Seth: And then immediately we're introduced to the father.

David: Yep.

Seth: The f- soon to be father-in-law, Laban.

David: Laban-

Seth: And-

David: ... who will come back later

Seth: He'll, he'll come back later. He turns out to be not a great guy.

David: True.

Seth: But for now-

David: For now he's great

Seth: ... his daughter's getting married.

David: That's right.

Seth: He's excited. He's pouring drinks. He's making food.

David: Yep.

Seth: He's being hospitable. He sends his daughter out, and then, uh, the servant continues to shower Rebekah with gifts-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and gifts and gifts, and he even gives her a, a, a, a nose ring in ver- [laughs] in verse 47.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And w- I've always wondered why, like, more teenage Christian girls don't use this as, like, a proof text-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... for, like-

David: For nose rings

Seth: ... getting nose rings.

David: Right.

Seth: Because it's, like, always this big contentious deal with your mom.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I mean, my sister did it. Like, "I want a nose ring." "No, you can't do that. That's, that's-"

David: Yeah

Seth: ... "that's what rock-"

David: Well, they could just say-

Seth: "That's what rockers do." [laughs]

David: They could say, "Well, fine, go marry a patriarch, and then you can get your nose ring." [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: But as long as you're under my roof-

Seth: No

David: ... no.

Seth: Anyway.

David: That's right. And so they go back to the promised land, right? And you've got Rebekah and the servant, their, and their whole little group, and they get close to, and Isaac see, and d- does she see Isaac from far away? Isn't that what happens?

Seth: She does. She sees Isaac from far away.

David: Yeah, and he's med- is he meditating or something?

Seth: He's meditating.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Praying in the field.

David: Good man, man of God.

Seth: And then he sees the camels coming back.

David: Yep.

Seth: And then Rebekah's like, "Is that..."

David: "Is that him?"

Seth: "Is that him?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: And she, and he's like-

David: He's like, "Yeah, you know."

Seth: "... you know that, you know that's him."

David: [laughs]

Seth: So she covers her face-

David: Right

Seth: ... with her, with her veil, and then they meet.

David: Yep. And, uh, and so what, w- it's a long story.

Seth: It is a long story. [laughs]

David: So wh- why is it here?

Seth: 67 verses.

David: Why is it given, why is it given so much space, uh, in the story? I mean, like, it just seems like it's taking a long time. If the narrative tension of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, is this, like, comedic relief? Like [both laugh] it's like, it ends-

Seth: It ends at a wedding.

David: It ends at a wedding. It, it's not really that, like, "Oh, no, the knife is being raised." It's a different kind of dramatic narrative, you know. It's more like, "Will there be a wife?" But it doesn't feel like the stakes are as high as the sacrifice of Isaac.

Seth: No.

David: So I just, it just, like, why is, is this in here? Is it just to show, like, God's provision? Just to show, belittling God's provision and faithfulness. Is that, but is that the point of this text is to show us that God is providing and really making good ways?

Seth: 67 verses-

David: Yep

Seth: ... of God always provides.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And not just a necessary, like, yes, a wife is necessary.

David: Right.

Seth: But it's so good.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's this, like, it's this joyous occasion.

David: A s-

Seth: And it's, a servant goes and does all this stu-

David: You know what else it is? Well, I'm just thinking, it's also, like, there's so much choice in it.

Seth: Mm.

David: That, God, I wanna know who you chose. Who's the wife and the woman you chose? 'Cause God came and selected Abraham and Sarah, right? But now he just has Isaac. So the, it, you've got a promised son, but where's the promised woman, the chosen woman?

Seth: Right.

David: And so, like, this is not only about God pr- God's provision, this is about God's choice.

Seth: And God's leading, God's guiding.

David: Mm-hmm. God's leading and guiding. And so we're not only rejoicing because he was faithful to show the servant, uh, a woman, but to show the w- to show the servant the promised chosen woman.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That God has made a choice of this woman, and, uh, it's been confirmed through multiple signs. And so we're, we're, we, we as the reader should rejoice that God has picked someone to continue this line too.

Seth: And how like a wedding, right?

David: Mm.

Seth: The wedding ceremony is only 20 minutes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's days and days-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... and weeks and weeks of preparation.

David: Leading up.

Seth: But, like, that's part of the joy of it.

David: Yep.

Seth: Part of the joy of the moment is waiting until the wedding day-

David: Right

Seth: ... when you're bedecked and-

David: Bedecked. [laughs]

Seth: Bedecked. Bedazzled. I had a, a bedazzled tuxedo on my w-

David: Did you?

Seth: I did not.

David: Oh, that would be awesome.

Seth: I did not. But-

David: You were bedecked out.

Seth: I was b- [laughs]

David: [laughs] Yeah, but all the lead up, right? Yeah, to, to the wedding. I, I can't, okay, so I can't help but think about there's this well, there's this woman that, um, that someone is sent out to, to go, to go be with outside of the promised land, um, and we ta- there's talk of marriage and all these things. Like, Jesus in John 4 with the woman at the well, the Samaritan, or the, the-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... wait, is she a Samaritan?

Seth: Yeah, yeah, she's a Samaritan.

David: Yeah, a Samaritan woman at the well. Uh, I feel like it's playing out this kind of thing. Like, Jesus is intentionally orchestrating an event to show that he is the new Isaac, uh, selecting a bride for himself.

Seth: Mm.

David: And so he's with this woman at the well, and she is, uh, definitely not the cha-

Seth: She's not-

David: She's not chaste Rebekah, that's for sure.

Seth: Right.

David: She is-

Seth: She's been divorced five times.

David: Yep, and has a-

Seth: Sleeping with some-

David: ... man in her room right now.

Seth: Right, but she represents this whole new people.

David: Right, because-

Seth: So-

David: ... she's a Samaritan-

Seth: She's-

David: ... so she's outside the chosen people of God, right? Whereas this servant was going to the chosen people of God, back to Abraham's line, to find the chosen woman of God to bring back to the chosen son of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? This is the selective group, and Jesus is talking to a woman, which you shouldn't have done, to a Samaritan outside the chosen people, and, like, having a conversation with her when she is in deep sexual sin. Like, these are, you're not s- these are breaking all the taboos. You're not supposed to do any of these things. And I think what Jesus is showing us in this story is that, um, whereas Isaac had to go out, um, to the promised people to bring her back, and it was about one group of people going to one place, Jesus and this woman have this conversation about where is it right to worship God. Uh, you know, you Jews say it's only in Jerusalem, but we Samaritans, we worship God here on this mountain.

Seth: I think you've got it wrong.

David: Okay. B- all right.

Seth: I think, I, I, I think the woman at the well, I think Jesus fulfilling the woman at the well is not here with Rebekah, it's back with Hagar.

David: Mm.

Seth: Because what happens when this sexually broken woman, who's been abused by other people, out in the middle of the desert, is wondering if she's gonna die, what does the Lord do?He makes her see a well.

David: Mm.

Seth: He creates a well that, for her to have a drink, and she goes, and what she say, "The Lord sees me."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And it's this... A- and then the Lord continues to say, "I will provide for your family. I will give you a name and an inheritance, and I will make sure that your, your nation and your, your line continues." I think the woman at the well in John 4 is the fulfillment of Hagar and Ishmael.

David: Mm.

Seth: That's what Jesus is doing. He's saying, "Look, there was a woman at the well who was sexually broken-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who shouldn't have had access to the line of God, but I s-

David: Right

Seth: ... I promised I would fulfill it."

David: Yep.

Seth: And we have another woman who's a Samaritan, sexually broken-

David: Yep

Seth: ... but she ends up becoming the missionary for an entire Samaritan people group.

David: Yep.

Seth: So with Rebecca, I think we have the image of the marriage sup- the marriage of the true people of God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The bride, Jesus coming as the bride of Christ.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right?

David: Well, I think so. I think definitely, and I think we're gonna see that the same thing happens with Jacob too, that his wife is found at a well as well.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so I don't think it needs to be one of these women, I think it's all of them. And-

Seth: They're all meeting at wells

David: ... they, they're all meeting at wells.

Seth: Maybe that's the more important point.

David: That's the more important point, is that when Jesus goes to the Samaritan woman, he is saying, "I am procuring for myself a bride from the most unlikely places. From all nations, I'm calling sinners to myself. Uh, any kind of social class, any gender, any race, I'm calling you to myself, and I'm going to adorn you as a bride. I'm gonna put, uh, that, that wonderful nose ring in you that Seth's friends all want-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... and bring you to myself, and you're gonna, you're gonna put a veil over your face, you're gonna come to me, and we're gonna meet, and we're gonna get married." And, like, that's what Jesus is doing, uh, I think. A- and yeah, I think it is supposed to be, it is supposed to be Hagar, it is supposed to be Rebecca, it is supposed to be later Rachel. It's supposed to be all these women that Jesus fulfills in his meeting with the woman at the well.

Seth: And w- so Jesus is the bridegroom.

David: Yep.

Seth: He, he's like the fiance, the man.

David: Yes.

Seth: A- a- and then the church-

David: Yep

Seth: ... we-

David: Are the bride

Seth: ... as Christians, are the bride.

David: Yes.

Seth: So we have this image, too, of the Lord preserving, keeping, dressing-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... providing-

David: Yes

Seth: ... watering, feeding-

David: Yep

Seth: ... giving wine, giving food, giving jewelry, preparing.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so what does Paul say? He has, there's a church that is spotless-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and without blemish-

David: Yep

Seth: ... presented before the Lord.

David: Right, and what does John say in Revelation? Uh, eh, that he saw the bride, uh, beautifully dressed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? Like a bri- like on a, on a wedding d- like a bride for her husband. Yeah.

Seth: There's this great Tim Keller line, 'cause Tim Keller's lines are normally great.

David: Pretty good.

Seth: And he talks about how, um, we all look our best on our wedding day.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And we see part of that here, like all this energy is-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... put into dressing and, and the way that we look. And he said, "You know, when that happens, we're not just playing dress-up."

David: Mm.

Seth: "We're not just pretending that we look better than we actually are."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "We're actually imaging what w- we will one day become."

David: Yeah. That's really good.

Seth: What, what we see there when we're dressed and we're young and we're shining and we have makeup on and we've got our hair cut-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is actually a picture of what the Lord will make us in heaven-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... when, forever.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, oh, it's so beautiful.

David: That's really beautiful. And I also just love this whole idea that we talked about, about God being faithful and God p- and God choosing, that this intentionality and this faithfulness and this selection doesn't just take place when Rebecca fulfills all these signs that, um, the servant asked for. It also happens every single time someone turns their heart to God, right? No matter where they come from, they believe in God. That moment, that, that, that servant dropped down to his knees and start worshipping God, that he has provided a bride, happens every single time someone's heart is turned to the Lord. They're like, "You've been chosen. You..." Like, "God has come to you."

Seth: You've become Rebecca.

David: "You've become Rebecca."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, amazing. Out of, against all odds, you've been looped into this promised line. It's just, it's just really cool. [instrumental music] Okay, so Jacob and Rebecca are married, and, uh, first comes love.

Seth: Then comes-

David: Then comes marriage, then comes the twins-

Seth: Rebecca with twins

David: ... in the baby carriage. [laughs]

Seth: I, we're going to a... I'm having a baby in three weeks.

David: You are, man.

Seth: Which is really crazy.

David: Yes, it is.

Seth: And right now we're going to this high-risk specialist, and on the wall-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... like as you walk into the doctor's office, they just have all these pictures of babies-

David: Oh, yeah

Seth: ... of like, you know, of just babies that have successfully been delivered.

David: Right.

Seth: And there's quadruplets.

David: No.

Seth: Natural quadruplets-

David: Ooh

Seth: ... on the wall. 'Cause, uh, somebody told me about them, like, "Yeah, those are natural." I'm like, "What?"

David: What, like other, not IV?

Seth: Not IV.

David: Oh, that's crazy.

Seth: Like natural quadruplets. [laughs]

David: That is something else.

Seth: That's b-

David: That's, uh, that's something el- but just twins.

Seth: This is half that. This is half that. [laughs]

David: Half quadru- So Rebecca's having half quadruplets. She's having twins, which immediately w- w- w- we need to be thinking about this. Abraham had one kid, and it took forever to get there, right? Just him and Sarah, one kid. Now with Milkah or whatever her name was, he had more. But, like, this is the promised one.

Seth: Yep.

David: And, like, he tried to have, uh, Ishmael with Hagar. Nope, it's not him. Like, God's being very particular, [laughs] right? Because there is one seed that we're waiting for.

Seth: Yes.

David: It's singular. Paul picks that up in the New Testament for us. It's singular. We're waiting for one seed, and now there's twins in his, in his promised line. So immediately we should be thinking back to Cain and Abel a- and going like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... one's gonna be the seed of Eve, the seed of the woman, one's gonna be the seed of the snake. One's gonna be chosen, one's gonna be unchosen. Good, evil kind of idea here.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, um, and in fact, we don't have to wait long to figure that out because Yahweh actually comes to Rebecca and says this to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided. The one shall be stronger than the other. The older shall serve the younger."

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay. So he's saying, "There's, there's twins in you, and I have chosen the younger and the weaker of the two."

Seth: It's the same story as Cain and Abel.

David: Yes.

Seth: So the older son was the one that was not chosen, potentially by, by not o- offering the right sacrifice, and the younger one was where the line came from.

David: Yep.

Seth: So the same thing's happening again, but this time by God's choice, not by Cain's disobedience-

David: Sure

Seth: ... and murder.

David: Right.

Seth: Yep.

David: Yeah. And so, um, this, then we kind of get to see it play out, whi- which it's like neither of them have done anything yet. They've just, they're just in-

Seth: Okay

David: ... in her belly, [laughs] right? And, uh, and it's like-They, one hasn't proven that they bring-

Seth: Babies are born in the womb, actually.

David: Oh, what?

Seth: The belly is-

David: Are you sure?

Seth: ... different.

David: I don't know about this. I have a son, and I think- [laughs]

Seth: David, David failed biology as a child. [laughs]

David: I didn't take it as a child, I took it as a man.

Seth: As a man. [laughs]

David: So, okay.

Seth: And you got belly, the womb wrong.

David: [laughs] I got belly and womb wrong. Okay, and so, um, we- we- we get this choice. We see that this prophecy is taking place, that, uh, God has chosen the younger over the older, and, um, then we kinda see it play out.

Seth: They are fighting in the womb-

David: Yeah, they're fighting

Seth: ... and one comes out, and then she pulls back in, and then-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the other one comes out.

David: Right.

Seth: Which is crazy.

David: And so, uh, the younger's name is Jacob-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... right? Which means, like, heel grabber or he cheats. So it's like-

Seth: The- the- the parents-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... weren't super creative with the names, like-

David: Oh, no

Seth: ... that one's hairy, so we'll call him-

David: We'll call him Esau, which means hairy.

Seth: And then this one-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... grabbed the other guy's heel, so we'll call him Jacob, because-

David: The one who grabs heels.

Seth: [laughs] It's like that.

David: It's like, nailed it. Although, that's actually really common in a lot of other languages-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and other cultures. Like, if- if you go to Kenya-

Seth: Yep

David: ... or Ghana or Nigeria, they'll name you after the time of day or the circumstances-

Seth: Mm

David: ... of the day. So if it was snowing outside, or if it was raining, or if it was nighttime, or if it was a hot day, like they'll, you'll have a certain name-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that you'll be named depending on-

Seth: I would've been named Almost Died Due to Heart Failure.

David: Oh. [laughs]

Seth: But I am alive, so it's a happy ending. But yeah, that would've been my name.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm glad my name's David instead. [laughs] I like that. And so, uh, Jacob is, uh, comes out grabbing Esau's heel, which was like an idiom, I don't know, like, for some reason. Uh, and I think it b- came to be used as an idiom, is what people have said, that he-

David: Oh

Seth: ... like-

David: As a tricky person

Seth: ... yeah, like, it's like, "Oh, you're like Jacob." We all know, we're- we're gonna find out-

David: Right

Seth: ... in Jacob's story next week that he's a trickster, and we're gonna even see a little bit of it here. Uh, but that- that's his name. And so immediately we see this all start to play out, right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So in their, in their actual birth.

David: They're immediately fully grown.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Immediately we fast-forward and they are adults. [laughs] That picture of Will Ferrell coming out [laughs] of that mother.

David: Oh, no.

Seth: Just asking.

David: A big Will Ferrell baby.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Oh, with the bonnet.

Seth: Yeah, with the-

David: I know what you're talking about.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, the...

David: And so, um, immediately, um, we see Jacob doing the weaker brother thing and cooking stew, right?

Seth: I like to cook.

David: I, I do too. It's, but, you know-

Seth: We're the Jacobs. [laughs]

David: We're the Jacobs. We're the tricksters in the world. And Esau has been out, you know, wrangling cattle or whatever you did in the day, and he's all hairy and manly and-

Seth: And he's exhausted and he-

David: He's exhausted

Seth: ... and he asks for some food.

David: Right. And so he's like, "Give me some of that soup, man."

Seth: And Jacob's like, "Well, I'll give you some soup-

David: Oh my God

Seth: ... if you give me your half of the inheritance." [laughs]

David: [laughs] It's not a good deal at all. He's not a very good negotiator.

Seth: I mean-

David: But, but Esau is so close to death, he's literally about to die of starvation, that he's like, "What's my birthright to me now? Like, what's my inheritance gonna be? I'm about to die in the kitchen if you don't give me that food. It's the, my birthright's not gonna be worth anything to me anyway, so sure, I'll make the deal." And Esau makes the deal. And so, like, uh, Jacob here gets a down payment of the promise that will be his from his father by tricking his brother for it. Like, which is just not how you would think a prophecy of God would play out.

Seth: Right.

David: [laughs]

Seth: God's first thought when he was like, "Okay, Jacob, you're gonna get all the inheritance."

David: Yep.

Seth: "We're gonna make sure that happens through deception-

David: Right. [laughs]

Seth: ... near death, and just-

David: It's like, what?

Seth: ... being a terrible person."

David: Yeah. Which a- again, leans into the motif of Genesis, which is God working through the evil intentions of men, that, and, and we're gonna see that at the very end of the Joseph story, almost at the very end of the whole book, what, what you intend for evil, God intends for good. And like, that's the motif of the Book of Genesis.

Seth: Yeah, up to this point it's actually been kinda slow in coming, 'cause I th- think that's the first time we've said that out loud, really.

David: I said it once, maybe two times ago, 'cause I, I remember saying that I've written this Genesis poem-

Seth: Right

David: ... and the through line for it is-

Seth: Yes, is, you said that

David: ... is, has to do with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: And so, so far we were seeing, like, characters of good people being largely good with some character flaws.

David: Some flaws.

Seth: But Abraham really has been the only character we've seen so far developed.

David: Yep.

Seth: And he, uh, he was faithful.

David: Yes.

Seth: And God rewarded his faithfulness with more blessings.

David: Right.

Seth: So here we have blessings-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and we see unfaithfulness, and God using that unfaithfulness to bring about the blessings.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so this will actually, this will become more and more pronounced as we get closer and closer to the end.

David: Definitely.

Seth: So much so that Genesis itself will kinda give that as the whole line for the book.

David: Yes.

Seth: "What you intended for evil, God intended for good."

David: Right.

Seth: And it's a way to read back into the, the fall narratives. "What we intended for evil-

David: Oh, right, yes

Seth: ... God intends for good."

David: Right.

Seth: It's only through, uh-

David: The fall

Seth: ... the fall that we get Jesus.

David: Right. Felix culpa, right, the idea of the fortunate fall, that, um, fortunate fall that gained for us so great a redeemer, that-

Seth: Mm

David: ... without the fall we would not have known that God was a god who would die for us.

Seth: Right.

David: Which is like, wait, what? Like, God created a world in which he would have to die to save it? Why? To show us that he's that good.

Seth: Mm.

David: Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... fortunate fall, that gained for us so great a redeemer. If we would've just always lived with God without any kind of evil in the world, without needing to be saved from ourselves and our sin, without needing the shed blood of Jesus, we would not have been able to see the real heart of God as one who would lay down his life for us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, amazing.

Seth: There's no fall, there's no redemption.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so we see this pattern all throughout Genesis. Whenever God's human people seem to fail and do wrong things-

David: Right

Seth: ... pretend their wives are their sisters or whatever-

David: [laughs] Yeah

Seth: ... like, God doubles down the promise.

David: Yep.

Seth: And he says to Isaac, "I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and will give to your offspring all these lands."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Same promise he gave to Abraham. It's gonna be given to Isaac.

David: 'Cause you know the story made its way through the family. This isn't something that happened behind, behind closed doors and no one knew about, right? Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I wonder if, uh, if Isaac was reeling about this whole thing. Like, "Wait-

Seth: Uh

David: ... my favorite son?" 'Cause, 'cause Isaac loved Esau, but Rebecca loved Jacob. Like, they were, they had different favorites. Mom and Dad fa- had different favorites in their kids. And so Isaac's hearing the story that Jacob tricked his favorite son out of his inheritance.

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: And he's like, "What's gonna happen? It feels like the blessing is all screwed up. My firstborn son has given away his birthright. The birthright's supposed to go to the firstborn son. Like, that's why I like him so much." [laughs]

Seth: Right. [laughs]

David: And, and everything's messed up. What's gonna happen? And you're saying that God doubles down on the promise here. It's in the midst of the chaos that God says, "Hey, I'm faithful even when you're not."

Seth: And he tells Isaac-

Seth: ... obey. He says-

David: Mm

Seth: ... because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

David: Yep.

Seth: And what's funny is that that same formula will end up being shown in Exodus and in Deuteronomy-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... when God gives law.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But for now, Isaac, after hearing the promise-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... makes the same mistake [laughs] that his father did.

David: Esau did. Oh.

Seth: His father did, Abraham, and he pretends that his wife is his sister-

David: Oh. Oh, yes

Seth: ... when he goes to-

David: Right, to Abimelech

Seth: ... a different king named the same thing. [laughs]

David: [laughs] It is, it is strange that it's like why is Isaac doing the same thing that Abraham did? It's like he goes to a kingdom in order to protect himself and his wife, he lies and says that she's his sister.

Seth: I mean, if it worked for his dad, it's got [laughs]...

David: Old Pops taught me this trick.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Is that what's happening here?

Seth: I yeah, honestly-

David: Or is it, is there something, is there anything theological going on here? [laughs]

Seth: I hope so.

David: I do too.

Seth: I really don't know.

David: It is a weird, it is a weird story. I think at the very least, um, we, we're seeing that some of the same flaws that were in Abraham, because, like, we don't get a lot of time with Isaac actually, you know, in the grand scheme of things. We don't get a ton of stories about him. And so here, I think in a really condensed, pressure-cooked kind of way, we get to see that Isaac's not perfect.

Seth: Right, but we also get to see the same pattern that happened in Abraham's life is happening in Isaac's life.

David: Yep.

Seth: The same pattern of sinfulness and faithfulness is happening. God was faithful to Abraham through sins-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and through lying and through the, [laughs] through all this stuff, and he's gonna be faithful to Isaac as well.

David: Right.

Seth: Even if the sin is exactly the same, God is still faithful.

David: Yeah, that's right. And, um-

Seth: And then Jacob.

David: Oh, yeah. And so now we're-

Seth: Solemnly swears.

David: Solemnly swears that he's-

Seth: He's up to no good

David: ... up to no good. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: And he, uh, does more trickery. [laughs]

Seth: This is, two weeks in a row we've got a Harry Potter reference. That's really good.

David: And so more trickery, um, en- ensues, and, um, Isaac's getting close to death. He's, like, half blind. The Bible says his eyes are dim.

Seth: And he's ready to give out his inheritance.

David: Yep. It, the time has come. And so Rebekah enacts a plan. Like, really it's her being trick-

Seth: It's true, yeah, yeah

David: ... tricker, trickish?

Seth: Trixie.

David: Trixie. [laughs] Hobbits.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Now getting Lord of the Rings in here too. She, she, she's gonna play the trick this time, and she gets her favorite son Jacob in. She's like, "We're gonna play a trick on old Dad. Uh, I'm gonna pr- I'm gonna prepare his favorite goat soup or whatever that he loves so much the way he likes it, and he's gonna think it's Esau. I'm gonna cover you in hair. I'm gonna make you smell like your brother, and you're gonna take this food in to your dad. He's gonna, you're gonna trick him-"

Seth: Set

David: ... "into thinking that you're Esau."

Seth: I just can't imagine, like, tricking my, my senile, blind grandfather-

David: Right

Seth: ... into giving me my inhe-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... somebody else's inheritance.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, I'm-

David: Or like-

Seth: ... thinking about my grandfather right now.

David: Right.

Seth: Who's, like, who... He's my grandfather, so, and I'm 30, so he's-

David: Yep

Seth: ... getting close to the end of his life, like, all the health complications that come with that. I can't imagine walking into his hospital room-

David: Dressed up

Seth: ... dressed up-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... trying to pass myself off as one of the closer relatives-

David: Right

Seth: ... to get my mom's inheritance [laughs] for my own.

David: And he's like, "Hey, uh, I think you should g- give me more of your, in your will."

Seth: Right.

David: And it's like, yeah, I need you to actually sign this. It says Seth Stewart here, and just give me your will.

Seth: It's like-

David: It's like, man, that's messed up.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like he, he's, he's already signed the will. He knows who he wants to give it to, and you're gonna go in dressed up as the person who's getting all the will money and be like, "I've got a new document for you to sign here. Trust me. I have your favorite Jell-O."

Seth: [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: Here it is.

David: Lime green. [laughs]

Seth: Lime green.

David: And so, uh, Jacob or, or Isaac kind of hesitantly buys the, the ruse, right? He-

Seth: The ruse

David: ... the ruse.

Seth: The ruse. Oh.

David: Roux is, is a flour, ba-

Seth: And a, and a butter mixture-

David: A butter mixture

Seth: ... that you use to thicken sauces

David: ... sauces. [laughs]

Seth: Particularly French ones.

David: French rou- yep. Puts some onions in it.

Seth: This is us being Jacob. [laughs]

David: We are very Jacob in this situation. The ruse. He, he hesitantly buys the ruse, and, um, but there might have been a roux involved, you know-

Seth: Potentially

David: ... for this delicious dish.

Seth: For a good stew.

David: A good stew. [laughs]

Seth: A good stew always has a roux.

David: Oh, that's right. [laughs] That's a good rhyme.

Seth: It's like making it into a jerk poem, right?

David: It needs to. A good stew always has a roux. I really like that. And, um, and he gives Jacob his blessing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it works. So now Jacob has procured both the inheritance and the blessing. He's gotten the possessions and the right. You know, like, he's gotten both things.

Seth: So what... So maybe help me there.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I just assumed this was kind of like... I just ass- I d- I guess I didn't think about the difference between a blessing and an inheritance.

David: Well, I mean, like, so, uh, what Esau gave Jacob, he had to have the right to give him, right?

Seth: Okay.

David: And, uh, like, he, it's what, it's his share of the goods of the house. Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... your inheritance, give it to me. Like, your birthright. A birthright is what you have, what you deserve as the right of the firstborn.

Seth: Okay.

David: That when Dad dies, you get all his stuff. You get to run the house.

Seth: So, like, your father dies.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And between you and your siblings, you all get a third of the house, right?

David: But, but the firstborn will get the lion's share.

Seth: Right.

David: The firstborn gets the lion's share. That's his birthright, is he gets the lion's share.

Seth: Got it.

David: He's like, "Give me the lion's share." And so Esau's like, "Sure, you can have my possessions that when Dad dies, you can have what was allotted to me."

Seth: Okay.

David: But then this is the, this is the blessing of God that he's giving him here. This is the covenant promise that Yahweh gave to Abraham and then Abraham gave to Isaac and Yahweh reaffirmed to Isaac, he is now passing on to Jacob, not Esau. The promise from Genesis 3:15 is now coming out of Isaac's mouth and into Jacob's ears.

Seth: Well, why is that necessary?

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Why can't, like-

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: I mean, up to this point, there's been no, like, laying on of hands to pass on the blessing-

David: Right

Seth: ... from one person to the, to the other. Like, why is that necessary?

David: Well, there kind of has actually. Think about Noah.

Seth: Okay.

David: Noah cursed, um, Ham, right?

Seth: Right.

David: And his whole Canaanite thing went buck wild and went terrible. But the one he blessed, right, s- uh, Shem, everything went great. And so God seems to be honoring the blessings that his chosen people pass on. And I think it's, God is working with human agents. Just like we said he works with human trickery and with human evil, he also works with human blessing and human good to bring about his promises. And so for some reason, God is honoring-Like, what his people-

Seth: Right

David: ... are saying. Like-

Seth: Who

David: ... who will be blessed. Which is, kind of blows my mind a little bit, but it, it's like, it shows that God is intricately [laughs] involved in every little thing that's happening.

Seth: If you were to try to pull apart the things that human people, humans do and the things that gods do-

David: Oh, you-

Seth: ... you would just never get... You'd, like, it's too confusing.

David: Can't do it.

Seth: It's, God's too involved.

David: Yep.

Seth: He's everywhere. He provided the wife. He provided the water for the camels. He provided the-

David: He's working in trickery, but he's not, but God's not the trickster. Like, it's, it's, it's too impossible to pull apart.

Seth: And the point is-

David: That's the, that is the point.

Seth: Yeah. And the-

David: [laughs]

Seth: Well, the point is-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... that God, what Go- what, what you meant for evil-

David: Yep

Seth: ... God meant for good.

David: That's right.

Seth: What Rebecca meant for Trixie-

David: Uh-huh. For Trixie. [laughs]

Seth: For Trixie. [laughs]

David: Yep.

Seth: God has actually meant for the blessing of all nations.

David: His intention.

Seth: All over the world.

David: You're right. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely right. And so, um, Esau comes in and he's like, "Hey, here's the, here's the food that y- you want. Now it's time for you to give me the blessing." And he's like, "Oh, I can't. I already gave the blessing to Jacob." And he's like, "Well, give me a blessing too. Surely you've left something for me." And J- and, and Isaac's like, "No, there's nothing left for you because it's one seed."

Seth: Right.

David: Like, "I can only bless one of you, 'cause it's one line that God has chosen to bless." And so the pronouncement he gives to Esau is, um-

Seth: Basically, you'll live by the sword.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's-

David: It's not good. It, it kind of hearkens back to, uh, the Mark of Cain a little bit.

Seth: Mm.

David: Uh, the violence will follow you wherever you go kind of thing. And so, um, this is, this is kind of where the story of Isaac ends. He dies after blessing Jacob and, uh, sending Esau away to live by the sword. And, um, and we're kind of left now, well, to, to where we're gonna talk about next week with Jacob, but before we do, um, we wanna talk about what, how is this about Jesus?

Seth: Yeah. One thing that I just am noticing, like there's just, there's a big difference between Abraham and Isaac.

David: Mm.

Seth: So, so far we, these are our only two characters that we've had in God's redemptive plan-

David: Yep

Seth: ... that leads to Jesus.

David: Sure.

Seth: Like, the family line that leads to Jesus only has two people in it so far. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: Really, like-

David: I mean, I mean, you had Noah. We had-

Seth: We had Noah

David: ... we had a long time with Noah.

Seth: That's true.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's true.

David: But there's this new covenant.

Seth: This new covenant and-

David: Yeah, the only two people under this new covenant so far have been Abraham and Isaac.

Seth: And they're just very different people.

David: Mm.

Seth: They're, they're very... I feel like Abraham, I had a lot of sympathy for, I had a lot of admiration for. He's like, he has a lot of faith. He has all this stuff, and Isaac just feels a lot more like a mixed bag. [laughs] You know what I mean?

David: Does he?

Seth: Like-

David: I just feel like we don't really get to know Isaac very well because it's like the w- I mean, one, he follows in his father's footsteps with King Abimelech, so it feels like he-

Seth: Right

David: ... is a lot like his dad.

Seth: It's true.

David: And he is trusting God's word that he will bless his people, and so he passes on that blessing obediently to his son, uh, even despite it being the one that he wanted to bless. You know, he didn't go, "Oh, never mind, I, I'll bless Esau instead." Like, he's not duplicitous. He's like, "No, my word is my bond. I, I blessed this guy, and that's confirming the word that, uh, Rebecca, my wife, said she heard all those years ago. I guess God was right in the end."

Seth: Maybe what I'm feeling is just the world of Genesis getting more complicated.

David: Yes.

Seth: So it's like, in the Garden of Eden it's two people.

David: Yeah.

Seth: By Tower of Babel, there's one big city-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and then just people dispersing everywhere.

David: Yep.

Seth: But then of Noah, we have just, we're back down to one family.

David: Yep.

Seth: And then from Noah onwards, the world is increasing in complexity-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in size and population.

David: Right. And, and it's bec- and, like, the chosen people line is getting more complex.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, you, we used to have, like, all those nations out there, but there's this one little remnant here, and it's easy to trace, and I know who I should be rooting for.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And now things start to get more complex. What, there's twins. Oh, no. [laughs]

Seth: And then, like, in order to have a wife, you have to go back over here-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to these other people and then bring them back around. It's like I get lost.

David: It does get more complex.

Seth: It gets a lot more complex-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in this mo- [laughs]

David: Yeah

Seth: ... so, like, I feel myself just feeling overwhelmed by it.

David: Yeah. Well th- and then think about just, like, let that feeling multiply throughout history and millions of people and, like, imagine the complexity that God is working within to bring us one seed, right? [laughs] Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... one chosen person, Jesus. Like, that should really blow our minds.

Seth: So that's what, so that's what... So if you're feeling that complexity, what you should be saying is, like, how do we get from here-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to Jesus?

David: Right.

Seth: How do we, how does God use evil? And I, and I, I don't know how to... What's, what's the phrase of Jesus?

David: Intend.

Seth: Which man intended for evil-

David: Which man intended for evil, God intends for good

Seth: ... God intends for good. So how do we see that in Jesus?

David: Right.

Seth: Do we see that in Jesus?

David: Yeah. Well, we definitely do. Um, I think the, it's very clear there's one very specific thing that humans intended for evil, um, and against God and his anointed, which is, you know, pulling on some even Psalm language there, that, um, they, they crucified Jesus. They intended evil against him to the utmost sense, and I think even in the Book of Acts, I think people pick up on this, right?

Seth: Yeah. It's 2:23.

David: Oh, you're already there. Are you?

Seth: Yeah. Uh-

David: We're on the same page.

Seth: We're on the same page. "This Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."

David: Whew.

Seth: "You crucified-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and killed by the hands of lawless men." So it's the same verse that we'll see in Genesis 50:20, "What men intended for evil, God intended for good."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It just, the structure is reversed.

David: Is, is reversed.

Seth: So God-

David: God had a definite plan and foreknowledge.

Seth: But you crucified and killed him.

David: Yep. Mm-hmm.

Seth: What g- men intended for evil, God has used for good.

David: That's right. Yep. Men crucified Jesus on the cross, but through their, their evil intentions and actions, God brought about the greatest possible good in redeeming all mankind from their evil, which is so amazing. And, uh, and it even gets repeated later in Acts, that, that same idea. I can't remember where it is. It might be in 4 or 5. Uh, but he says, like, um, you, you crucified Jesus according to everything that God had already planned, [laughs] which is just crazy.

Seth: Yeah. It's, it's 4. I think it's 10. "Let it be known to all of you, to all people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus of Nazareth, whom you crucified and whom God raised from the dead, by him this, this man is standing before you."

David: Yep. No, he says it again later. I, I just read Acts today, so it's just in my head. I can't rem-

Seth: Somewhere in your head

David: ... but I can't rem- but anyway, and so what, what we're seeing here is this, uh, this choice that God made, um, that his son would die.And like, and all throughout Acts, especially if you wanna look at Acts, again and again and again, when Paul goes into a synagogue to ex- to try to defend and argue about, um, the, the fact that Jesus is the promised one from the Old Testament, the one thing he's trying to get people to understand is that the Christ, the Messiah, the promised one, had to suffer and die and be raised again, over and over and over again. Just so many times.

Seth: Right.

David: That's the one thing he's talking about. Why? Well, 'cause that was God's plan. Just like the, just like, um, Jacob and Esau were chosen in the womb before they did anything, like when Jesus was still in the womb of eternity, if you will-

Seth: Right

David: ... in God's plan, God said over and over again through the Old Testament, "The promised one will have to suffer and die. The promised one will have to suffer and die." Like, that's why we have-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the suffering servant Psalms, or, uh, you know, uh, prophecies in Isaiah over and over again. In every corner of the Bible, we see this, this promise-

Seth: This

David: ... that the chosen one will suffer and die.

Seth: And almost through trickery a little bit.

David: Yes, right. Oh, Judas.

Seth: Yeah, through Judas.

David: Yep.

Seth: But also, uh, what is, uh, I think it's Paul he says, like, if they would've known-

David: Oh, if they would've known, right

Seth: ... they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

David: Crucified the Lord of Glory, yep.

Seth: There's a sense, there's this hiddenness about Jesus's identity.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: This, like, disguising-

David: Right, like-

Seth: ... of the divine in human flesh.

David: God kept them from seeing.

Seth: [laughs] And so when he does become the chosen one-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... it's through trickery.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's through a little bit of, like, so in Narnia-

David: Mm

Seth: ... she doesn't know about the deeper magic bef-

David: Oh.

Seth: Queen, Queen Jadis doesn't know-

David: That's right

Seth: ... about the deeper magic before the dawn of time.

David: Yep.

Seth: So when she kills Aslan-

David: She didn't know what she was doing

Seth: ... she didn't know that what it would bring about is her downfall.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so the same way, there's this sense-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in which, like, the L- like, the forces of this world, Satan, Rome, did not know what they were doing when they killed Jesus. Because what they did when they killed Jesus was they blessed the entire world.

David: Right. What, what man intended for evil, God intended for good. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

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Isaac, Trickery, and the God Who Provides: Genesis 22–27

Show Notes

A Test That Redefines Sacrifice

A Graveyard as a Down Payment

A 67-Verse Love Story and the Bride of the Messiah

Twins in the Womb and the Pattern of Divine Election

The Stolen Blessing and God's Relentless Faithfulness

What Man Intended for Evil, God Intended for Good

Related Resources

Introduction to Genesis

View our devotional on Genesis 1-2

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Genesis 1-2: Creation podcast

Listen to the Genesis 3-5: The Fall podcast

Listen to the Genesis 6-11: The Flood podcast

Listen to the Genesis 12-21: Abraham podcast

Listen to the Genesis 22-27: Isaac podcast

Listen to the Genesis 28-36: Jacob podcast

Listen to the Genesis 37-50: Joseph podcast