Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right. Hey everyone. Um, we are really excited to be with you today.
Seth: I am too.
David: And so is Seth. Uh, that's the we.
Seth: We and me.
David: [laughs] That's the we. There's actually a third person in here. It was, I was excluding you, and then you added yourself. There's not, there's just two of us.
Seth: Well, there's third.
David: There is a third person. Megan is, is here. She's filming, um, which is awesome. Uh, but we are really excited because, um, we are going to be kind of pivoting-
Seth: Pivoting
David: ... um, w- a little bit of our plan to help accommodate a larger vision for what we have going on at Spoken Gospel.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and so, um, as some of you might know at this point, um, we are working at Spoken Gospel to make, um, video introductions to every single book of the Bible.
Seth: Poetic.
David: Poetic ones, yeah.
Seth: Like spoken word.
David: That's right, using spoken word poetry to tell the story, and we are trying to do two things in each video, basically. We are trying to show the book's main theme, and then how that theme is fulfilled in Jesus.
Seth: Yep.
David: And that's what we're trying to do, so we're, there's, we're doing 60 of those, um, not-
Seth: Because there's only 60 books of the Bible.
David: Well, we, we, we're familiar with the 66.
Seth: Oh, there's 66.
David: But, yes.
Seth:[laughs]
David: You play dumb real well. I like it. Um, but, uh, like, so originally the Hebrew scripture is like, 1 and 2 Kings were one book, and 1 and 2 Chronicles were one book.
Seth: The books were written in Hebrew?
David: Ezra, Nehemiah w- [laughs] Oh my gosh.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You're the worst. Uh, and then, uh, in the New Testament, we're collapsing 1, 2 and 3 John into one introduction video. Um-
Seth: That makes sense
David: ... and so that's how we got to 60. So we're doing, uh, we're hoping to have them all done in three years.
Seth: That's fast.
David: Which is a lot, and we're even doing devotionals for every chapter of scripture.
Seth: Yes.
David: So those are a lot. You're writing some of those.
Seth: I'm writing some of those.
David: What, what book are you working on right now?
Seth: Well, I'm supposed to be working on Mark. [laughs]
David: I don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear that you're supposed to be working on Mark.
Seth: Well, the goal is not, not that we just introduce you-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the book, but actually help walk you through the entire book in the smaller passages, how each passage, not just the broader themes, point to Jesus, which is where this podcast kind of falls too.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like how can you engage with, see all parts of scripture-
David: Right
Seth: ... pointing to Jesus?
David: And so in a six-minute overview of a whole book, and then a little four to five-minute in- like, a-
Seth: Devotional reading
David: ... devotional reading of a couple chapters, we just don't have time to go into as much of everything as we want to.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so that's why we're pivoting, is because like we did with Exodus, where we got really granular and focused on small chapters, we wanna kind of do that-
Seth: Yes
David: ... with the rest of the Bible that we're releasing, uh, introductions and devotionals for, but maybe not go as granular.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: So the g- the idea is, like, we'll just be taking larger chunks of scripture-
David: Right
Seth: ... but doing ve- something very similar that you heard in Exodus as well.
David: In Exodus, right. So, uh, we, uh, and then, and then you... We're interrupting the Psalms a little bit here. We had, um-
Seth: So many things are happening.
David: It's a lot, so thank you for hanging with us, guys. But we are, we still loved, like, sitting down and just-
Seth: Mm
David: ... we felt like we were meditating on the Psalms together, which was really fun.
Seth: Which we decided we wanna continue to do.
David: That's right.
Seth: So-
David: So we're, we're gonna, like, take breaks and, like, just meditate on a Psalm, and we'll release those.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So we're gonna sprinkle Psalms throughout.
Seth: It'll be a steak of Genesis sprinkled with the salt of the Psalms.
David: Ooh, I like the salt of the Psalter would've been better.
Seth: Mm.
David: But, you know, no judgment.
Seth: Well, but you're the poet.
David: [laughs] And so, um, to that end, since we've already recorded the Exodus devo- or podcasts-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the e- and Exodus is the first book we're releasing on the Spoken Gospel, like the whole Spoken Gospel project thing.
Seth: And the video's coming out.
David: The video's coming out.
Seth: When?
David: All the... Oh, man, in the, in like a, like a week, February 15th.
Seth: Awesome.
David: It's so soon. Um, and like all the devos will come out like a month after that, and then in April we'll release Genesis, which is why today we're gonna start podcasts on the Book of Genesis.
Seth: That sounds, that sounds like a plan.
David: Which is gonna be great. So it will feel like we're going a little slower at first, 'cause we're gonna do creation-
Seth: And then the fall
David: ... and then the fall, and then it'll pick up after that. Uh, we're gonna do larger pieces of text, like all of Abraham's life and all of Isaac's life, all of Jacob's life, all of Joseph's life.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that'll get us through Genesis in like six or so episodes, which is much faster [laughs] than we went through a much smaller book like Exodus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So anyway, so that's kind of the vision. So we're really excited to jump into Genesis, so thank you for joining us today. Here we go. [gentle music] So this is Genesis-
Seth: 1
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: 1
David: 1.
Seth: On page one.
David: Page one.
Seth: This is-
David: Unless you have like, uh, the... Wait, is it really page one?
Seth: It's really page one.
David: It's not like-
Seth: In my Bible it's page one.
David: Oh, 'cause all the ones that came before it are like-
Seth: Are-
David: ... XX, I, I.
Seth: Those are called Roman numerals.
David: Roman.
Seth: Roman.
David: Wow, that seems just nationalistic of you.
Seth: I'm not Roman. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Anyway, David tried to do the comic relief and failed.
David: I did. It doesn't work.
Seth: Therefore, in the beginning-
David: [laughs] Here we go
Seth: ... God.
David: In the beginning, God.
Seth: So the point-
David: Yep
Seth: ... we wanna see Jesus-
David: Right
Seth: ... in this passage of scripture.
David: In Genesis, yes.
Seth: In, in the creation of the entire world.
David: Right.
Seth: And what do we need to be aware of? I think-
David: Oh, man
Seth: ... when we come to this passage of scripture-
David: Yep
Seth: ... most often we don't think about seeing Jesus. We think about who's gonna win the battle-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... between creationists-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and evolutionists.
David: And evolutionists, yep.
Seth: So how do we talk about Genesis without talking about creation, evolution?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And actually, or should we, shouldn't we be talking about creation, evolution?
David: I see.
Seth: Like, well, like what-
David: I think, I think we have to talk about what the Bible talks about.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? So, like, what does the author of Genesis care about communicating in these opening two chapters? I think that's, w- if we could figure that out, then we could figure out should we engage in a conversation about the origins of the universe from a scientific standpoint or not.
Seth: Yes, and so this really comes down to a question about genre.
Seth: What are we-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... reading when we read Genesis 1 and Genesis 2? Are we reading history? Are we reading scientific literature? Are we reading narrative? Are we reading poetry? Like, I think that helps also, like-
David: Yeah, but it d-
Seth: ... settle for us.
David: Yeah, I think, I think it helps, but at the end of the day, a biography could make a scientific comment.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, ob- obviously this isn't a science textbook. So I think, like, we could say, like, a lot of people have said, like, part of, like, w- you know, Genesis 1 might be poetic and Genesis 2 might be narratival or something like that. Like they switch it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like there's a switch-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it's retold again. So, like, the first, the f- like, chapter one is more poetic, chapter two is more history narrative or something like that, and then it's like, uh, but like we don't know. Like, uh, like a, if I'm reading history and it's about a scientist and his theories, I'm gonna learn about science. So like-
Seth: Right
David: ... I don't know if genre settles the question for me at least.
Seth: Mm. I think it helps me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because growing up in a Christian home, the genre of scripture, the genre I read Genesis 1 and 2 in was this tells me in fairly precise detail on how the world was made.
David: I see.
Seth: And when I come to it with that expectation, it's actually hard for me to see anything other than potential fodder to just own-
David: Right
Seth: ... the a- atheistic evolutionist.
David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Seth: So I think for me, whenever I started researching Genesis, like, the genre question became really helpful because, like, well, what if the main point of the genre of sc- of this piece of, of text isn't to communicate to me scientifically accurate details about the creation of the universe-
David: Right
Seth: ... but actually tell me about a God who is in control of all things.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so that was actually really helpful for me. Like, like-
David: This is doing more theology than biology.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: That was more helpful for me, and even like... So the Bible's not a myth.
David: Right.
Seth: But, like, all societies-
David: Have myths
Seth: ... have creation myths.
David: Yes.
Seth: Even though evolutionists would not call their origin of humankind a myth.
David: Right, it's a creation theory.
Seth: It's a creation theory-
David: Right
Seth: ... but it's a myth-
David: Right
Seth: ... about what it means to be human-
David: Yep
Seth: ... what the significance of humanity entails-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and what are the overarching governing forces of this universe.
David: Yes. Yeah, I would think, and I think you could, you could cross genre a bit and say, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you could probably paint the evolutionary theory as a myth. There's this big, empty, unknown foreign world of primordial Earth and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and universe, wherever it came from. It's like, oh, that's like a fantasy world. Like that I don't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I have no connection to, and it's like these-
Seth: And the god is called Chance.
David: Chance, right.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. The god Chance does... Yeah, and so it's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, and, and, and I'm not trying to belittle that standpoint or anything like that or, like, make light of it. It's like, but at, it, like, it's not, it's not a f-
Seth: It commu-
David: It, it's not a fact that that happened, so it's, it is a myth in a sense.
Seth: It communicates more than scientific details.
David: Right. Oh, and we should probably say, when we say myth, we're not saying lie.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: We're saying, uh, as a genre, mythology.
Seth: As a genre. A mythology does more than just tell us funny stories-
David: Right
Seth: ... about the gods.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It actually communicates really detailed truths about reality itself. So for example, during, when Genesis was written, there was another creation myth-
David: Yes
Seth: ... during that time called the Enuma Elish.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's when these two gods, Tiamat and Marduk, fought in the primordial ex- existence of the universe.
David: Right.
Seth: Before the universe was, had structure or shape or the Earth was made, these two gods existed in constant battle, and when they came together and clashed together, the blood of the defeated god seeded this void Earth, and from the Earth sprouted human beings.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Plants, vegetation. And so what you ha- so it's a creation myth.
David: Right.
Seth: But what does it tell you about reality? Reality is ultimately a battle.
David: Yes.
Seth: Reality is ultimately not from God, but comes from the gods.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that human beings are essentially the dust and blood of defeated deities.
David: Right. It's a byproduct of something much larger.
Seth: Right.
David: There's no intention in it.
Seth: The gods aren't sovereign over creation.
David: No, no, no.
Seth: And human beings aren't given this particular type of dignity.
David: No.
Seth: Except-
David: Other than the fact that they came from the blood of gods.
Seth: Right.
David: But it's like their shed blood and their dust and, or like-
Seth: And a defeated god, like-
David: A defeated god, right. Yeah.
Seth: A defeated god.
David: It's always a lesser.
Seth: It's always a lesser.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then, so what kind of morality would that create for the people living in it? Well, the greatest, the greatest moral victory must be victory in battle.
David: Battle, right.
Seth: So like, I... So it creates a culture based on that creation myth.
David: Right.
Seth: So when we look at Genesis, I think that's a helpful way for us to look at it.
David: It is. And there's also, and there were, like, there's other, um, there were other, like, creation myths going on at that time as well.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, a- and, and they always have to do with, like, the gods doing, like, immoral activity.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, one was even, um, had to do with like, um, like the semen of a god.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: That's what the rain was. [laughs]
David: Oh.
Seth: Yeah. It's like that's why, like, fertility was r-
David: Right
Seth: ... connected to the crops growing, which is why how the Earth was created, how the crops grow, and why, like, sex cults-
David: Right. Yes
Seth: ... in pagan worship were so common-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because this was a way to retell their version of the gospel story.
David: Right. And so what, and so what we have to realize-
Seth: And, uh-
David: ... is, like, uh, this also, Genesis wasn't written at the dawn of time.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, let's just say that.
Seth: Right. Right. Right.
David: It was written later, like, in an embedded culture surrounded by all these other, like, civilizations that believed these other myths. And so what Genesis is doing in its n- in its new creation narrative is it is showing people a counter myth, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: An alternate version of how the world was really made, and if you take the... traditional conservative-
Seth: Yes
David: ... um, evangelical standpoint, which is this was written by Moses. This is one of the five books of Moses, called the Torah. Then we know that, that, or we would believe, I believe, that this was revealed to Moses by God, maybe on Mount Sinai.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, God is saying, "I know you guys just came out of Egypt. There's all these creation myths. You're about to go into Canaan, where there's all these other creation myths. Let me tell you something that will counteract that-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and will give you an alternative narrative, not so you can go, 'Oh, we know how the world was actually made,'" right?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, day by day by day, step by step.
Seth: But let me give you a myth, a worldview is probably the best-
David: A worldview is helpful
Seth: ... let me give you a worldview that helps you engage with-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the world you're about to enter.
David: Right, yes.
Seth: So I think if- imagine, like, The Origin of Species. The first line of The Origin of Species is-
David: Charles Darwin
Seth: ... Charles Darwin-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is, "I will give you a brief sketch of the progress of opinion on the origin of species." That's the first line of The Origin of Species.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he's like, "Let me give you a history-
David: Yep
Seth: ... on what we've thought up to this point."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: If the Bible was be- being rewritten today, I think what the Biblical author, this hypothetical Biblical author would do is, like, he would steal language of that, and he's like, "Let me tell you how the world, the opinions of the world-
David: Right
Seth: ... on the origin of the species."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he would go on and subvert all our expectations about what it means to be human-
David: Yes
Seth: ... what it means to live in the world, what the most powerful forces are.
David: Yep.
Seth: And I think that's what Genesis 1 and 2 do.
David: That is what it's, it's deconstructing other worldviews-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to show something very particular, that Yahweh-
Seth: God himself
David: ... God himself is in, is sovereignly, intentionally, intimately in control of the world-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and all creation, and that he has, and then also something about the dignity of man, which we'll get into.
Seth: Which I think is what, it's, somebody said it's, "In the beginning, God."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's the first phrase in the entire Bible. In the beginning, God. Not in the beginning, man, in the beginning, processes, in the beginning, chaos, in the beginning, myself-
David: Right
Seth: ... but in the beginning, God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I mean, that's kind of an incomplete sentence.
David: Right.
Seth: In the beginning, God created.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I think it's a helpful, like, rubric for us to think, like, what we're being introduced to in Genesis 1 and 2 is that in the beginning, God.
David: Right.
Seth: The main character is God, his action, what he does, what he accomplishes, what he's able to do, and what he decides to do based on his power.
David: Yeah. So what does that tell us right off the bat then about this god, I guess, would be a good thing. He's not this, uh, this deity floating around some, in some other cosmological space, uh, slaying other deities, and we happen to be a by-product. There, there's this counter-myth, who is this god then? Like...
Seth: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So the first thing we're told is that the creation of our planet, of our universe, of the stars, is God's artistry.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, what we see in the world is something beautiful and good from God's hand, which is this other theme that goes throughout the Genesis story, it is good.
David: Right.
Seth: It was good. It was good. It was very good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, first thing we learn about God is that God makes beautiful things. God can create-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the things that he creates are beautiful.
David: Yeah. Well, that's, that's really good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it shows an intentionality.
Seth: Yep.
David: It shows that God cares about beauty. Uh, it shows that things are here aren't accidents, and so it's like, let, it shows that there's a, there's some kind of plan in place, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: It doesn't have to be, like, a capital P Plan, where it's like, you know, everything's foreordained. I'm not trying to go there.
Seth: Right.
David: Obviously, I think you can, and I think some of the New Testament authors do that.
Seth: Right.
David: Um, but, like, there's a plan. Like, there, this, this Earth has a shape, and it fits in a solar system. There's, there's an, a cosmological architecture happening.
Seth: Yeah, and you even see that in the text.
David: Right.
Seth: So in the text, God creates, like, these voids. So, like, it begins with a sense like, "The Earth is formless and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep, and the Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters." And then what God does is he creates these voids from the void. He creates the sky. He creates the heavens.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He creates the oceans. He creates the land, and then he fills the voids-
David: Right
Seth: ... with stars and fish and birds and people.
David: Right.
Seth: So he's like the god who takes voids, who creates space, and then fills those spaces.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, there's no part of creation of the universe that's outside of God's control. Both the void and what fills the void are his. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we should talk about the days of creation now-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because we talked about how [laughs] I think, like, when we grew up reading this, for us it was like, oh, I know how, step by step how the world was made.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, booyah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, um, I think one thing that we could immediately notice, which is what you already talked about, which is in the first half, days one to three, or is it days one to two, I think, you have God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... making voids, making spaces.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then on the rest of the days, uh, three to six, he fills them.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? So he makes the, he makes the sky, and then he puts planets and stars in it.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, he makes the waters, and then he fills it with fish. He makes the land, and he puts vegetables and animals and man on it.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, um-
Seth: And although man, but man is also, like, a separate category.
David: Separate thing, right, right, right.
Seth: But, yes.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and then w- w- and, like, why is that important? Why would you go day by day by day? I think there's two things that we have-
Seth: Okay
David: ... the, the, the text forces us to notice.
Seth: Okay.
David: First has to do with Sabbath order. Like, like-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... why, why six days? So there could be a seventh-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is very important. We'll talk about Sabbath, but to go back to what we talked about earlier is that this is saying something very specific of why Yahweh's creation is different than everyone else's view of creation.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's that they had little sub gods over everything, that, you know, the waters had a god, and the sun had a god, and the polytheism of it all.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Just, and, and God is saying, "No, I made the world, and I filled the world."
Seth: Yes.
David: "I am over the sky and the sea. I'm over land and the stars. Like, I am, I'm all of it."
Seth: And, like, this is a little bit more technical, but, like, God physically creates matter.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, he's like-So ex nihilo-
David: Yep, which is out of nothing. Latin for-
Seth: Out of nothing
David: ... out of nothing
Seth: But like, so in the Numelish, the only way that humans are created is from the-
David: From the matter of gods
Seth: ... from the matter of gods that have already been created.
David: Right.
Seth: But God himself creates the thing from which we are created from.
David: Which is totally foreign to-
Seth: Like
David: ... the, um, ancient mind.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Absolutely.
Seth: So this is, like, category blowing. Wait, there is a God who creates the gods?
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: That's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's mind-blowing.
David: That's really good.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: That's really good. Yeah, and He, and He doesn't lose anything in Himself to do so. There's no inner battle within God. He doesn't have to slaughter some other thing to make it. He just does it out of... So like, what are we learning about the nature of God? He is way more powerful than the gods that we know about.
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: And he's even more powerful... I said, like, this is a concept completely foreign to the ancient mind. This is a concept completely foreign to the s- the modern mind, that something can come from nothing breaks all our scientific categories.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? Which is like, that's starting to tiptoe into the evolution creation debate, but at the end of the day, the Bible doesn't let us get away from, in the beginning, there was nothing-
Seth: Nothing
David: ... but God. And so, like, then, uh, it can spiral into other theories, and that-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's, but that's not what we're concerned about right now.
Seth: My current, my current favorite scientific theory-
David: Oh, no
Seth: ... is that nothing actually has things in it.
David: What?
Seth: So like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... there's a book out there. It's called, like, Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing. It's all these philosophers and scientists debating it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And like, there are theories about there, about what, well, what does it mean for there to be nothing?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, our conception of nothing is blankness.
David: Right.
Seth: But what if our conception of nothing actually has things in it?
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: It's like theor- theoretical math- mathematics.
Seth: Yes.
David: They talk about the concept of zero containing no numerical worth, but having value, and like, having a concept.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But so the point we're making-
David: Oh, right. [laughs]
Seth: ... is that [laughs] the point we're making is like, the idea that there was nothing and then there was something is difficult conceptually for humans from ancient and modern-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to affirm or to understand.
David: And that's the point.
Seth: And that's the point.
David: Is that Yahweh breaks our categories.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, the God who makes the world should break all our categories. And like, great, that's, that's a good place to start. So I think that's one thing to point out about the days of creation. Um, other than the Sabbath, is there anything else that you were like, "Oh, I really loved this as I was studying"?
Seth: I think maybe... So the order of creation-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is different in Genesis 1 and then Genesis 2.
David: We should talk about that.
Seth: And why?
David: Oh, yeah. Right.
Seth: So-
David: Well, we kind of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we answered it already, is, uh, he's telling parallel accounts, right, of, uh, the author, I should say, is telling-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... parallel accounts of the same event using two different genres to talk about it.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so the first is more poetic, right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And the second is more like, "So there was this garden, and then this is what God did in it, and then He found man."
Seth: I've always read them the other way around.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Like, the, the first one's like the narrative. Like, here's what hap-
David: Oh
Seth: ... here's, here's what God did.
David: Right.
Seth: And the second one zooms in-
David: I see
Seth: ... on this individual and the creation of his wife, and there's actually poetry in it.
David: Right.
Seth: "Bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh."
David: Flesh of my flesh. Right.
Seth: Like, there's like a song sung in it.
David: Right.
Seth: So what you're saying is what we need to understand is Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are not meant to, to show us a literal sequence of events.
David: Right.
Seth: Because if you look at Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, they're actually a different-
David: Different sequence
Seth: ... sequence of events.
David: Right. It's not, he's not con- he's not concerned with sequence.
Seth: What he's concerned about is God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and us understanding who God is and who we are in relationship-
David: Apart
Seth: ... to Him.
David: Right, apart from these other cultural myths-
Seth: Right
David: ... and creation myths. Right. Uh, and so he, he's not so much concerned that you just put your stake in the ground that God separated the vault of the sky from the sea before He made seed-bearing plants. Like, that's-
Seth: Right
David: ... not what he, he's concerned about. He's concerned that you know that the same God did it all.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's his concern.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and then when we zoom in, it, it, we kinda get this more intimate, like, version of, of this... You, you get to import all this amazing stuff you learned about Yahweh, that He's in control of everything, that He creates something out of nothing, that before everything was, He is.
Seth: That He-
David: And then He zooms in and breathes on dust and makes man. It's like, what? Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that breaks all our categories. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, and again, for both ancient and modern minds, what are humans?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Humans are the blood of a dis- of a dead god.
David: Right. Or...
Seth: Or we are the product of millions of mutations over time.
David: Right.
Seth: So what does the Bible do that's unique to both ancient and modern worldviews?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It gives us a dignity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that no-
David: And intentionality
Seth: ... and intentionality that-
David: It's like either by, by divine chance or cosmic chance, we were made-
Seth: Yes
David: ... from every other worldview.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like only the Bible comes and subverts that and says, "You were made intentionally, not by chance."
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we all have an, an intuition that that's the case.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, the current, like, the reason for social justice and-
David: Yes
Seth: ... civil rights movement-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the equal, and equal rights, like, that is based on the idea that we are-
David: Of assumed dignity
Seth: ... assumed dignity. But that, that worldview of assumed dignity only comes from scripture.
David: Right.
Seth: It doesn't come from naturalism. It doesn't come from ancient text. It doesn't come from paganism. It comes from Christianity.
David: Right. [gentle music] Okay, so I've talked a lot about wanting to talk about the Sabbath, and now let's do it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because-
Seth: Sabbath
David: ... it's-
Seth: Tell us about the Sabbath.
David: Well, it's an idea from-
Seth: It's the seventh day.
David: It's the seventh day. So God creates for six days, and then on the seventh day, it says He rests from His work. Uh, we know that this does not mean that God naps, um, or that God stopped doing things, uh, because we know from the New Testament that He upholds the world by the word of His power.
Seth: Yes.
David: So He-
Seth: Jesus even says, like, "My Father's still working."
David: Yes. God's always working.
Seth: So am I.
David: Uh, and so, uh, even on the Sabbath. [laughs]
Seth: Even on the Sabbath.
David: Uh, uh, but what it means is that He's like, "Okay, creation is done."
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, the work is finished. The active work of achieving creation, right, is done. So I'm, I finished that. It's finished.
Seth: It's a completed project.
David: Right. And so, um, and then He rests, and then we know through the rest of the Old Testament that He invites people into His rest.So he, he, he builds that seventh day rest into the fabric of his special Israel community, um-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, and says, "Every seventh day, you're gonna rest. You're not gonna do any work, and then every seventh month, there's gonna be festivals. Every seventh year, there's going to be crazy amounts of rest that take place for the slaves and the oppressed and the land."
Seth: Right.
David: Every-
Seth: And then every-
David: Seven times seven years-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the year of Jubilee, and everything's gonna rest, and, like, debts are gonna be forgiven. Like, you're-
Seth: And the point of all this?
David: The point of all this is trust in this Yahweh, is that, like, He's the one who creates something out of nothing, so no matter how much you toil, God could always provide more than you could ever a- achieve.
Seth: Yes.
David: I like-
Seth: He's the one who brings fruitfulness to your land.
David: Right.
Seth: He... And what's crazy is, think about that. So we would talk about Ba- the worship of Baal and all the sex stuff and all the-
David: Yeah. Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... idolatry that goes on there, and that's how you e- encourage fertility-
David: Right
Seth: ... is through all these acts-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of, uh, devotion and ritual.
David: Right.
Seth: And, and God's like, "No, just celebrate."
David: Just rest. Just party.
Seth: Just party.
David: Celebrate, party. Yeah.
Seth: Like, "I've d- I've got it."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I've got it handled. Your land will be prosperous, not based on your effort, but on my ability."
David: Right. So the, what the Sabbath's all about is saying, like, "God provides so we don't have to." It's like trusting Him. It's faith.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Sabbath is an exercise in faith, um, which is really great. I think, like, a lot of times, Sab- this, the idea of Sabbath gets co-opted by, like, the psychology of rest, where it's like, "Well, rest is good for you." And it is.
Seth: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
David: But that's not its main point, because God didn't need rest, right? Like-
Seth: The Sabbath is a weekly reminder-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that you're not God.
David: Yes.
Seth: God is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the more you remember that, the more [laughs] worshipful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and God-honoring your life becomes.
David: Right. And yeah, you'll, you'll... Rest is good for you, and you should have rhythms of rest. But, like, your psychological wellbeing isn't the end of the Sabbath. It's worship and faith in God's provision. So I think that's just really important to, to point out. Okay, so that's kind of a little overview of the Sabbath.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: And so, like, so, like, Sabbath is what God did at the end of His creation.
David: Right.
Seth: But at the end of His days of creation-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... He-
David: Something else happens
Seth: ... He creates m- men.
David: Mm.
Seth: He creates-
David: People
Seth: ... people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Men and women.
David: Adam.
Seth: Adam.
David: Right.
Seth: People. And he says, "So God created man in His own image. In the image of God, He created them, male and female, He created them."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's the last piece-
David: Little, little poetry line
Seth: ... little poetry line. I don't know why that's poetry.
David: Oh, it's, well, it's the same reason why you said, "Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh."
Seth: Oh.
David: It's the same th- same thing.
Seth: It's, it's a poem.
David: It's a poem.
Seth: Trust us. And then-
David: Hebrew poetry
Seth: ... [laughs] and then He-
David: Parallelism
Seth: ... and then-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... the poet words. [laughs]
David: [laughs] The poet words.
Seth: The poet words, they're here.
David: Yep.
Seth: God's pinnacle of His creation is mankind, and then He gives them a law.
David: A law.
Seth: He gives them a rule-
David: Right
Seth: ... to follow.
David: Which-
Seth: A thing to do
David: ... which us uppity theologians call the creation mandate.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's this: "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves."
David: Right.
Seth: I love that God's response to creating a world, a good world, we're told over and over again as good, is to this mar- to this, this married couple is, "Just have a lot of sex, and, like, uh, really enjoy"-
David: Enjoy the land
Seth: ... "the land that I've given you."
David: [laughs]
Seth: God's command is, "Enjoy your wife. Enjoy the land. Rule it well."
David: Right.
Seth: It's like-
David: "And rest in my provision."
Seth: It's like, it's not, doesn't feel like a command.
David: Right. Yes, but it's like that is, like, the end of man is to enjoy God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and, like, what he gives us. Like, and so the, the, y- what you don't see here is, like, uh, the end of man is toil and work and make, and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it's, it's more enjoy and rest and trust.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, like, what's the end of that? What does that produce? It produces worship and, like, faith. And, and so, um, it's the Westminster Shorter Catechism, right, that begins, "The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right. And then John Piper altered it a little bit when he said, "The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever."
Seth: And you kinda get that sense here.
David: You get that sense here.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, you can't have sex without enjoying it. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, you can't eat fruit without enjoying it.
David: Right.
Seth: You can't exercise authority without enjoying-
David: Right
Seth: ... the power-
David: The power
Seth: ... that, that, that offers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, those things are good gifts-
David: Yes
Seth: ... God has given to His people.
David: Right.
Seth: And the command is, "Enjoy them."
David: Right. So, like, so to recap, the, the creation mandate is to be fruitful, multiply, so that we might fill the earth.
Seth: Yes.
David: What's the point of that, right? Because God has said, um, "I've made you in my image. Now fill the earth."
Seth: So I think what that means is, so we- we're given four rivers. [laughs]
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And so, like, I think-
David: Uh, the, uh, for the boundaries of Eden.
Seth: For the boundaries of Eden.
David: Right, yep.
Seth: And so I think the Garden of Eden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... was bounded by those four rivers.
David: Yes.
Seth: And Adam and Eve was, were tasked with, "Take the Garden of Eden beyond here."
David: Right.
Seth: "Fill the earth-"
David: "Fill the earth..."
Seth: "... with a garden."
David: Right.
Seth: "Cultivate it. Work-"
David: Right
Seth: "... but in such a way that it's enjoyable." Like-
David: Wait, wait, and He says, He says, "Fill the..." He says, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth."
Seth: Yes.
David: So He's like, "Make more of my images around the world," right? So God wanted His image to cover the face of the earth.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's what He wanted. He was like, "Your..." So, like, when a, when an emperor from that time, like a king from that time, would come and take over a land, he would put his statue all over that land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that if you were at the outskirts and you crossed his boundary, you would see his statue, and you would know that's that king's land-
Seth: That's the border
David: ... because his image is there.
Seth: Right.
David: And so the whole point of the earth is for God to fill it. He's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "I want my image everywhere because it's the best thing ever, and I've made you in my image so that you might fill it." So it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God's original intent for the w- universe was that His image, through His perfect image-bearers, might fill the world with His glory and beauty.
Seth: That just totally revolutionized my thought of space travel.
David: Oh my w- [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: What?
Seth: I mean, so, like, what are we doing when we're trying to go to Mars?
David: Oh my gosh. I get what you're saying now.
Seth: [laughs] We're putting-
David: Our image
Seth: The image of God-
David: Oh, okay, yeah. I thought, like, from a self- from a sinful-
Seth: From a, from a civil-
David: From a sinful point
Seth: ... no, but like-
David: Right
Seth: ... there is something draw- like, we're made to obey the image of God.
David: Oh, absolutely.
Seth: Obey the creation mandate-
David: Right
Seth: ... to enjoy it.
David: And we, we break it and subvert it.
Seth: Yes.
David: But, like, there's something in us that's saying, like, "I wanna put my image there."
Seth: Why do we climb the highest mountains?
David: Right. Uh, 'cause I wanna, I wanna put the image there.
Seth: Why do we g- why were we going to Mars?
David: Right.
Seth: It's because there's something in us that says-
David: There's a creation mandate in us
Seth: ... there's a creation mandate that says the glory of God will touch every part of this universe.
David: Wow, that's cool. That's really cool.
Seth: That was cool.
David: I like that. So that's the be fruitful, multiply part, and then have dominion, right, over, over this, over this world, over the-
Seth: So dominion feels almost-
David: It does
Seth: ... strange here, but I think there's another behind-the-scenes idea operating-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that will help us-
David: Great
Seth: ... called the divine council.
David: Oh, here we go. Oh, no.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Oh, boy.
Seth: Like, so one of the thing, so why a garden? Why is the image that God chose to place a garden? And then also another thing we should, why is, like, this garden also a mountain?
David: Right.
Seth: So if you read your Bible, this Garden of Eden will be-
David: Is also later called a mountain
Seth: ... uh, the mount of the Lord.
David: Mount of the Lord.
Seth: Mount Zion.
David: Mount Zion.
Seth: Like, mount, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, a mount of-
David: God's holy temple is on the mountain-
Seth: Right
David: ... and it's always refer- referring back to Eden.
Seth: So why is that?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think the reason-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that is the case is because an anc-
David: In this ancient Near East culture
Seth: ... the place where God me- the gods met their people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... were often on the mountains-
David: Or in gardens
Seth: ... or in gardens. Even if you go to Buddhist-
David: Yep
Seth: ... countries today, all their temples are on the highest point that they can find-
David: That's right
Seth: ... because that's where the gods meet them.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so what we also have here is this space where God and humans are meant to interact with one another. Like, God has created the world to be his temple.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what's happening right here. So why is that significant for our understanding of Genesis and also the entirety of the Bible?
David: Oh, man. Well, there's a couple things then th- a couple threads we're pulling. One is, like you've hinted at here, is that Eden was God's temple.
Seth: Yes.
David: That, like, it even says that God, like, we'll get to it in chapter three, but we see that God walks through this garden in the cool of the day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like God's there. Like, God's talking to his people.
Seth: He's-
David: He's working with Adam to name the animals. Like, he's there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so this is his temple.
Seth: Humans are part of his, like, inner circle-
David: Right
Seth: ... in which he is-
David: Yep
Seth: ... glory is going out.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So his image is not only in people, it's also in a place, and he wants that people and that place to cover the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he wants his image to go out to cover the world. He wants his temple to go out and cover the world. So that's one idea, but then you also talked about the divine council, so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which we haven't unpacked yet. So w- at, i- i- he, there's this self-referentialness that, that God uses, this self-reference that God uses, and he's like, "Let us make man in our image." Now, and a lot of people wanna run to a Tri-
Seth: Oh, yeah, let us
David: ... run to, run to, want to run to a Trinitarian understanding of that. They're like, "Oh, see? There's a proof for the Trinity." And I would love for that to be the case, but the argument's not very convincing. Uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and so it's, it's not, he's not talking to the Son and Holy Spirit when he says us. He's talking to what the rest of the Old Testament constantly talks about, which is the divine council, which are... So the, the Hebrew word for God is-
Seth: Elohim
David: ... Elohim.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's other Elohim. There's other s- and we know this. If I just said, "There's, there's other angels," you'd be like, "Oh, yeah, cool."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, cool.
David: "No worries. I get it."
Seth: Yeah, cool, cool.
David: Yeah, but it's like there's other lowercase G gods, which is-
Seth: Yes
David: ... also hard for us to understand, but it's just we're not used to using the word God plural in a real sense.
Seth: Right, and so I think for us it's like angels-
David: Yep
Seth: ... even human beings are called sons of G- Elohim.
David: Elohim.
Seth: Sons of Elohim.
David: Sons of Elohim.
Seth: Sons of God.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so I think the idea we're supposed to have of this garden is this is where God sits and judges and rules and reigns over the earth. In a similar way to earthly kings who have their court or their magistrate who do things in the world-
David: Right
Seth: ... who re- act as representative for this country-
David: Yeah, you go be my ambassador over there
Seth: ... or for this region, God comes with his host of angels-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and then invites human beings to sit at the council table with him-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and help him rule the world.
David: Right, so that's why this is our big circle to close.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's why when we read the word dominion-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that's what's happening, is God is inviting us into his divine council to rule part of his creation with him. W- like, so this completely subverts the reason why some people wanna talk about dominion as like, "Oh, the earth is ours. God gave it to us. Let's strip it of its resources [laughs] and use it for-"
Seth: Right.
David: Like, no. Like, we are to be co-regents with God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in stewarding and caring for and loving this world.
Seth: In creating a garden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the world. [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so when we see the word have dominion, this is like a kind king ruling, and, like, we're ambassadors of God going out and trying to make the world like this, a, like this Eden that he made.
Seth: Yes.
David: So that's the, that's what dominion means.
Seth: There is-
David: It's a caring and a cultivating
Seth: ... so much in Genesis 1 and 2.
David: So much more, yeah.
Seth: Like, uh, we said it earlier, like, like there is a literal universe-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... in Genesis-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like being described, it, our literal universe.
David: Yes.
Seth: But, like, there's this figurative, imaginative universe-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that you can just get lost in-
David: Right
Seth: ... for so long. [laughs]
David: Right, and, like, we mean that by, like, there's a worldview that we-
Seth: A worldview
David: ... we can, you can inhabit.
Seth: A, a, an anthropology.
David: Yes, where men come from.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Who are, who are people? Oh, like my whole universe of the dignity of humans comes from this place.
Seth: A sociology, a politics.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, there [laughs]
David: All of this happening, um, uh, in this figurative world that, that God is making in this literal one that we're hearing described being brought from nothing.
Seth: Yes.
David: So it's really amazing everything that, that's happened there. So that's a lot to talk about, um, but we need to do our favorite thing and get to Jesus in all of this, and there's a lot of ways to see it, so let, let's do that. [upbeat music] Okay, so let's see Jesus in [laughs] in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Genesis 1. We, we have to be selective 'cause there's just way too... We've been selective in what we've brought up.
Seth: Right.
David: So we're gonna try to close the loops on-
Seth: On all five things we've [laughs]
David: ... on all five things that we've brought up. So, uh, the first thing we looked at was that in the beginning, God-Created.
Seth: And in John 1-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the beginning-
David: Was the word, and the word was with God.
Seth: And the word was with God.
David: And the word was God.
Seth: Yes.
David: So who made the world?
Seth: John says it was Jesus.
David: John says it was Jesus. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Which is crazy. Now, that might be confusing, right? We're not saying that, um, the physical embodied Christ that walked in Judea and Galilee, like, wa- had that physical body and was up in heaven making stuff.
Seth: Like with his fingers, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... pointing things.
David: We're saying that, like, th- in some way you have to understand the Trinity, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, and the one given credit from the New Testament authors, both in, in John, in Colossians 1, in Hebrews 1, is-
Seth: Jesus
David: ... Jesus, the, the Son of God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is the one who makes everything.
Seth: So if it's like God is the architect-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Jesus is in one sense the, um, the contractor.
David: Contractor, the one who builds it all.
Seth: And the Holy Spirit hovering over the face of the waters-
David: Is the foreman
Seth: ... is the builder.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: It's like, it's like there's this like the... [laughs] I don't know if that's helpful, but like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's-
David: Right
Seth: ... what's happening.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, God said, "Let there be light."
David: Yep.
Seth: Jesus, the Word made flesh, was there with him and builds these things with the agency of the Holy Spirit. Um-
David: And the Holy Spirit's, like, hovering and working and separating-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and moving. Yeah, so it's a Trinitarian work, uh, but the one that is pre-eminently named all throughout, especially in, in the New Testament-
Seth: That's right
David: ... is the, is the Son of God.
Seth: He upholds the world-
David: Right
Seth: ... by the word of his power.
David: Right. So what does this tell us about the gospel then, about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus?
Seth: It tells us that in the same way that Jesus once made the world-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he will remake it.
David: Oh, that's good. Yeah, right.
Seth: He, he is the one who will restore creation to its original-
David: Yes
Seth: ... glory.
David: Right.
Seth: Do you want the world to be beautiful again?
David: Mm.
Seth: Do you want the oceans to be free of plastic?
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, the Lord Jesus Christ will do that.
David: Right.
Seth: And he is working in us-
David: To-
Seth: ... to accomplish it now.
David: Now, and will make it perfect when he comes again.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes. Amazing. I love that. And, like, we can look at the creation account and rejoice in the faith of knowing that, like, he's capable because he made something from nothing.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, and then, uh, it also just makes me just baffled at the incarnation-
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah
David: ... at His humiliation, and at his crucifixion, that it's like the God who made everything, the God who made trees-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... knew he was gonna die on one.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that just blows my mind, that he would be like, "I'm gonna make a tree, and one day, its sapling great, great, great, great, great grandchild-
Seth: I'll die on
David: ... is gonna be turned into a cross that I carry and die on." That's just too much to think about. Um, and like the humiliation, the, the degrees of difference between in the beginning God created-
Seth: Right
David: ... and my God, my God, why have you forsaken me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... are too wide of a chasm for me to even-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... get my head around. And that's why, like, the-
Seth: Like-
David: ... the Christ hymn from s- Philippians 2 is so powerful, and it's like he did not count equality with God something to be grasped but made himself nothing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... taking on the very nature of a servant.
Seth: Yeah. Like, if creation ex nihilo-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... blows our categories-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... something came from nothing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: For s- the truest something to become nothing blows all of our categories-
David: Oh, goodness gracious
Seth: ... in like a, [laughs] a totally new way, right? [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah. It just makes me rejoice. It makes me so, I mean, thankful just falls on, like, just falls so short that this-
Seth: Just worship
David: ... God. Yeah, it's worship.
Seth: That moment where you have no words left.
David: It's worship.
Seth: That's worship.
David: Yeah. So thank you, God, right now for making everything and then dying in, in dying for everything.
Seth: In order to remake everything.
David: Remake everything.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Oh, he's so good. Okay. Oh, anyway, that's really good. I'm worshiping. Uh, so then th- we talked about the creation mandate.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? So, uh, be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, Jesus, c- like, comes, and he picks up on this language, right? Because all throughout the different covenants of the Old Testament, th- one is constantly repeated-
Seth: Well-
David: ... which is be fruitful and multiply
Seth: ... be fruitful and multiply.
David: Right.
Seth: Be fruitful and multiply. But actually, before we can talk about that one, we should talk about Jesus being made in the image of God.
David: Oh, I mean, yeah, if we wanna-
Seth: We can do it in either order.
David: Sure.
Seth: But, like, Jesus, so, like, humans are made in God's image, and we're told that Jesus is the exact imprint of God's nature.
David: Right.
Seth: So there's a sense that we are im- God's imagers, that his-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... his, like, his representatives in the world.
David: His little statues.
Seth: His little statues-
David: Yep
Seth: ... representing the borders of his kingdom, but we've done it in such a way that's messed up.
David: Right.
Seth: We actually don't image the king-
David: Image him, right
Seth: ... kingdom the way that we're supposed to, and so Jesus comes as the perfect representative of who God is, the exact imprint of his nature-
David: Right
Seth: ... representing God perfectly to the world.
David: In him, the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, scripture says, right?
Seth: Yes, and then we're s- we're shown how he is the perfect representation of God by dying and then rising from the dead, and then one of his last words is to take this to re-give us the command-
David: The command, the cultural mandate
Seth: ... the cultural mandate to be fruitful and multiply-
David: Right
Seth: ... to his disciples after being renewed as an image-bearer himself and renewing his disciples as image-bearers.
David: Right.
Seth: And he tells them.
David: Right. Matthew 28, all authority in heaven and on earth, we're getting all that creation language back. Like-
Seth: Yep
David: ... who made heaven and earth?
Seth: God did.
David: Yeah, God did. Jesus did. How? By his, by his authority because he's-
Seth: Yes
David: ... has, he's all-powerful. "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations." So cover the earth, fill the world, and subdue it. All nations, he's bringing in that all the world again. Uh, and make disciples of all nations, right? Baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I've commanded. That goes back to the cultural mandate, like just obey these commands and live with me. Enjoy. Like, so he's recapping all of Genesis 1 and 2 in the Great Commission.
Seth: And what I love is he bookends it with, "All authority has been given to me."
David: Oh, right, yes.
Seth: And then go and do all these things.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, and I will be with you.
David: I will be with you.
Seth: And so I think-I don't hear that command as a great of a joy as I hear, "Be fruitful and multiply."
David: Oh, oh, ow.
Seth: [laughs]
David: No, don't do it.
Seth: [laughs] It's like being really convicted-
David: Oh
Seth: ... as we've been talking about. It's like, man, I really wanna have sex with my wife.
David: Right.
Seth: I really wanna have, eat great food. I wanna create a world. I wanna have authority. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this sounds great. I would love to be in this creation world.
David: Now go share your faith.
Seth: Oh.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: But that's-
David: I have to. [laughs]
Seth: But, like, if God has recreated humanity in Jesus, if he's, I am a new creation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in him, isn't the making of disciples this joy-
David: Oh my goodness
Seth: ... filled experience of actually eating the thing that God created?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, shouldn't it feel like the sweetness after taking a bite of fruit? Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's, that's the, the imaginative universe-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's being set up for us-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the Great Commission. Like, the expansion of God's kingdom throughout the world should feel like the neces- the, the rejoiced in end of the fruit that we're eating.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? Like-
David: Yeah, it's amazing
Seth: ... taste and see-
David: Right
Seth: ... that the Lord is good through teaching evangelism-
David: Wow
Seth: ... proclaiming the gospel.
David: That's really good. And, and, and so what we see in that is that what was commanded of man in the beginning that we broke and didn't do, we, we sent his broken image all around the world. Now Jesus is remaking the world by sending new ambassadors, 2 Corinthians 5:4 calls us that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're new ambassadors of, of Jesus's image to go and fill the whole world. And-
Seth: Ministers of reconciliation
David: ... no, ministers of reconciliation, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Ambassadors of Christ, ministers of reconciliation, begging the world, "Be reconciled to God."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like we are-
Seth: I think the-
David: ... going and fixing the curse, like, which we'll talk about next time.
Seth: I think we just did it. W- that, what's that moment that feels like eating fruit?
David: Mm.
Seth: It's when you are looking at Jesus in the Bible-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and you're like, "I have no other words." We just did it.
David: Oh, we did.
Seth: We just did it.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, what is that necessary end? Communicating the beauty of the gospel to people other than yourself.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And like, we-
David: I know what it's like to imbibe it w- like, on my own.
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, enjoy the, the sweetness of Jesus and what he's done on my own. But like, uh, it's like, it's like someone said, like, uh, uh, sharing a bottle of wine is better than having it all to yourself. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I just think, I mean, like, even that, like, I think this idea, like, I wanna keep pushing on this because-
David: Yeah, it's really good
Seth: ... I think this, because I think one of the things that's been kinda transformative in even my own evangelism- [laughs]
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with other people, not that I'm great at it, but it's just sharing how Jesus has been good to me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with people that don't believe in Jesus, isn't necessarily, like, the most surefire way to get a conversion card built.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But it's like it feels more true to the creation mandate.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When I sit across from my, from my, my gay friend and say, "Man, here's how the Lord really convicted me of my sin with my wife and showed me how he was better"
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that just feels-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... one, less artificial.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, let me share you, with you the Romans road.
David: Right.
Seth: But two, it feels like I'm tasting something beautiful-
David: Right
Seth: ... and offering a wine for my friend to enjoy with me.
David: It's like, "Oh my gosh, have you tasted this? Try this. It's so good."
Seth: Right.
David: "Uh, no, I'm okay."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's, like, that, you know? Or it's like, "Oh yeah, that does look good. Let me try." Yeah, that's, that's very different, d- very different view of evangelism than I think about often.
Seth: Yeah.
David: All right, we gotta move on. We gotta move on.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, so we, uh, we've talked about the Great Commission, we've talked about Jesus is the image of God, we've talked about how Jesus made the world. Uh, we've also talk- we've also kind of talked about the whole idea of the, um, cosmic temple, right? How the whole point of creation was for God's image and presence to fill the world.
Seth: Yes.
David: So we've said that Jesus is gonna come back and remake everything.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, like, in, in Revelation, uh, we see him at the end of Revelation coming and filling the whole world with his glory.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, Habakkuk says, uh, prophesies that the world will be filled with the glory of God as waters cover the sea.
Seth: Right.
David: Which is like, wait, how does, how do waters cover the... They're the same thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, exactly. Like, it will be wherever you go, the fabric of the world will be the glory of Jesus. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so much so that it, it fills it with light, so much so that, um, Revelation says we don't even need lamps or moon anymore-
Seth: Right
David: ... because Jesus is our light.
Seth: What is a temple? It's where God and humans interact with one another.
David: It's where they can be together.
Seth: Or where they can be together, communicate with one a- other.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And another way to say the word image is idol.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's, they're, they're-
David: Yes
Seth: ... synonymous terms.
David: Yes.
Seth: And as God's image, you are also his idol in one sense, a representative of the God-
David: Right
Seth: ... you are imaging.
David: Not that he worships you. [laughs]
Seth: Not that he worships you, but, like, as you go throughout the world-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that does not yet know Jesus, you as an idol are bring- stretching the tent of God's temple-
David: That's right
Seth: ... to where you are-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and bringing that people group, that person-
David: Right
Seth: ... that individual to communicate with the God that you're imaging.
David: Right. And we should probably talk about here that, like, this all nations, this whole Earth, um, mandate, i- you know, cuts across all kinds of party lines and race lines and culture lines, nationalities, that, um, a- as people who live in the kingdom of God, who have one king, you know-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... who serve one allegiance, uh, we do not and cannot look at race, country boundaries, you know, borders-
Seth: Right
David: ... the same way that the world does.
Seth: No.
David: Because we are called to all nations to see them with the same dignity we have-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as made in the image of God, and to bring to them the sweet wine of the cultural mandate that Jesus-
Seth: Yes
David: ... has given us.
Seth: And in this-
David: Yep
Seth: ... going back to this divine counsel, we will experience opposition.
David: Right. That's right.
Seth: So this is where... And so when w- all authority's been given to Jesus, therefore go in his authority. Like, w- what is one of the consistent theme Paul picks up in his letters? You have dominion over the principalities and powers. The, the battle you're fighting-
David: Right
Seth: ... isn't against flesh and blood.
David: Right.
Seth: It's not about national boundary lines.
David: Mm-mm.
Seth: It's not about ethnicity. It's about the spiritual forces of this world. And so there once was a time when we were in the garden, in God's divine counsel, sitting at his, in his counsel chambers around his round table.
David: Yep.
Seth: We lost that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: In Christ, we get it back, and we are actually pushing back the darkness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with an authority that comes from sitting at that table.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like [laughs]-
David: We, we, w- we, we're in occupied territory now.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? We're in o- enemy occupied territory, but we have weapons that always win
Seth: Yes.
David: But we're not fighting flesh and blood, we're fighting, um, any idea that would set itself up against Jesus as the Messiah. Paul talks about that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We lop that off, and we fight against spiritual evil.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? Which we'll talk about next time when we talk about the fall-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and Satan the tempter, everything like that. Okay, uh, the last thing is Sabbath rest.
Seth: Sabbath rest.
David: Sabbath rest. Hebrews, like, nails this. It just talks about it so well. Um, it talks about that a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God, so have faith in Jesus, and don't stop trusting him because a rest remains. And it says that those who, who, who have faith in Jesus can rest from their work.
Seth: Mm.
David: And, like, that's the whole point of the gospel, is that Jesus is our Sabbath rest. He is the one who brings something out of nothing, right? The, 'cause we had no righteousness, no merit, no goodness. We had no right to be back in God's temple, and yet Jesus created something out of nothing through the merits of his death, burial, and resurrection, and gives that to us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, salvation ex nihilo.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And, and, and gives that to us.
Seth: Jesus-
David: And he says rest in that.
Seth: Yes. Salvation, yes, but also, y- just tie it even more directly. It's like physical things that the world creates, like we are exhausted from our efforts to make this world meaningful to us.
David: Right.
Seth: To make it, like, to create a f- a functioning family.
David: Right.
Seth: To, like, to survive college. Like, we are always working to create a world for ourselves.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's exhausting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's exhausting, and when Jesus comes, he said, "Let me help you."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Let me take that with you. Trust in the fact that I created all things already, and everything that you have right now is a byproduct of mine."
David: Right.
Seth: "And when you fall asleep on Saturday morning, or take a nap on Saturday afternoon-
David: Yep
Seth: ... I will continue the work that you've already begun."
David: Mm.
Seth: "The imaging work of extending the boundaries of the garden through intellectual endeavor, family, relationships, just whatever, I will do while you're sleeping."
David: Right. And, like, and we can pick up on, Jesus picks up on this idea in the Sermon on the Mount when he talks about, like, worrying about what you're gonna eat and what you're gonna wear.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Is, he's like, "Man, God provides for the sparrow and for grass."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, he's a provider, so chill out. Rest.
Seth: I always-
David: Trust
Seth: ... get tripped up on that one, 'cause it sounds kind of prosperity gospel-y. But, like, that's a real promise. Like, do you believe in Jesus? He will provide food for you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Are you poor? Like, Jesus will make sure you eat tomorrow.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, what? I-
David: Not, and not on your own merits.
Seth: Yeah.
David: On his. That's the difference with the prosperity gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is like, it's not like, well, insofar as you believe.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, no, he'll, like, he, it's his merit. He did-
Seth: Which-
David: The, the, the voided universe did not believe in God and then it was made.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs] Like, it had nothing to offer.
Seth: Man, yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, there is a literal and figurative universe in this passage.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's all about Jesus.
David: Yeah, Jesus fills all of it. It's, and there's a lot. I wish we could keep talking about it, but, um, I think that's good for an [laughs] opening Genesis episode.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, well thank you guys so much for listening. It's been awesome. Uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we're excited to release, uh, the whole book of Genesis and work through this with you. Um-
Seth: Yeah, we're still a new podcast. You should tell us-
David: Yep
Seth: ... your friends about us.
David: Tell your friends-
Seth: Like us.
David: Yep, like us. If you haven't left a review, please leave a review on whatever podcast app you listen on. It helps us a ton.
Seth: Send us an email of how you saw Jesus in this passage.
David: Yeah, [email protected], uh, if you wanna email us. Uh, yeah, we, we just, we really appreciate you guys listening. Um, the Genesis introduction will come out in April, and devotionals will come out soon after that. And, uh, this podcast will, uh, be there too.
Seth: Be there too.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Just a little friend.
David: A little friend, helping you through scripture. Awesome, guys. Well, have a great week, and we'll see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
