Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Okay, so when we open the book of In the Wilderness-
Seth: Yes
David: ... we see numbers.
Seth: Yes.
David: So let's-
Seth: The numbers of Numbers.
David: The numbers of Numbers. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, and so we want, w- we want, I, we just wanna help you get through the first three chapters. If you, especially the first 10 chapters, it's all law.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it can be some arduous reading.
Seth: So this is the part, the part of my Bible I always stop reading.
David: Yep.
Seth: This is like, I was like, "Okay."
David: You make it through Leviticus?
Seth: I go-
David: Man, that's, that's pretty-
Seth: I made it through Leviticus.
David: Yeah, there you go. You limped.
Seth: I'm ready for something new.
David: You limped through Leviticus.
Seth: And then like three more chapters of Moses business?
David: Come on. Yeah.
Seth: I'm, I think I'm done here.
David: Yeah, but it's totally worth it to get through. Like, it's totally worth it, and there's a lot of amazing stuff to see here in the first 10 chapters. And so we open up and in the first chapter, God speaks to Moses a-
Seth: That's the other name for Numbers, too.
David: Yep. Yep.
Seth: It's like, "And He spoke."
David: And He spoke.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep, and God spokes, speaks to Moses, which is a big deal because if you remember-
Seth: In the tent of meeting.
David: Yes, in the tent-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of meeting. That's a big deal. So it's like, if you, if you kind of have this hiat- You have, Leviticus is like this little hiatus in between the narrative flow of Exodus and Numbers. And there, we get, we do get some narrative in Leviticus, but it's like God fills the tabernacle at the end of Exodus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Moses can't enter in, so the Levitical system is set up and sacrifices are made, and Moses can enter in at the end of Leviticus, and he enters in, and the Lord takes a breath and starts speaking.
Seth: And the first thing He says, "Okay, let's go to the new Eden."
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's, it's time to go.
Seth: It's time to go.
David: It's time to go. And so, um, a- and He says, "Here's what I want you to do. I want you to count the number of fighting men. We're gonna take..." This is a war census. So this is like a, kinda like conscription, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, He's mustering his army. And so everyone over the age of 20 but under the age of 60, all the men, are to be counted in every tribe. So there's the 12 tribes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, um, a leader is put over every tribe to be the chief counter of that tribe.
Seth: Okay.
David: And we get a number, and they go through and they count, there's this many from this tribe and this many from this tribe, and there, the numbers are all cal- calculated and collated, and they're added up at the end, and we get, like, 603,000 and change.
Seth: Okay.
David: So let's ju- we'll just say 600,000.
Seth: 600,000 fighting men-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in the 12 tribes of Israel.
David: Right. And so all the, all this is trying to do is, like, the people of Israel are ready for war. And, and the-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and the reason why they're ready for war is because the land that they're going to is occupied. Right? Which i- which i- is a really important thing for us to think about.
Seth: So-
David: We won't talk about it in full because the war hasn't started yet. We'll talk about that in Joshua.
Seth: So there's a, so but we should understand that Eden is currently occupied-
David: Occupied. That's right
Seth: ... by enemy forces.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is a huge theme of the Bible, that the place where we need to be, right, the, the, the new life that God has for us, the land of the kingdom of God that he wants us to inhabit, in order to go into it, there are evil forces that must be conquered. And so, you know, in the gospel we know that that is the spiritual forces of evil, right?
Seth: Right.
David: He puts them to open shame on the cross. He conquers them, so Satan and his legions have no more power over-
Seth: Right
David: ... those who are in Christ. But now it's a physical battle right now in the book of Numbers.
Seth: And, I mean, the distinction between spiritual evil and physically-
David: Mm
Seth: ... evil kings is much more blurry in scripture-
David: Oh, much more blurry
Seth: ... than it probably is in our modern minds.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, the evil kings of Canaan, the, of the, the enemy occupying forces in the new Eden, are animated by demonic principalities-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and powers and, right.
David: Right, and we'll see that when we get to Canaan.
Seth: And it, yeah.
David: And we'll talk about that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, um, s- but first, so we, we've, we've got these numbers, and so the first chapter is all numbers.
Seth: Yeah, all 46 verses [laughs] of Numbers.
David: 46 verses of numbers. Um, and you get to the end of it, and, you know, all you're left with is, "There's 600,000 fighting men. Cool."
Seth: That was a g-
David: "Thanks for the edifying read."
Seth: That was worth the trip. [laughs]
David: [laughs] And so, um, there's, there's so- there's something we have to look at here. Um, there's a point being made-
Seth: Okay
David: ... with, with this. There's ac- I think there's several points being made, but I think before we can jump to the point that's being made, I do wanna deal with a historical difficulty.
Seth: Okay.
David: Just because, like, it, if, if someone has read it and they're like, "Hold on, this doesn't really make a lot of sense," or you've heard other people bring this up as a reason why the Bible's uncredible-
Seth: Right, there's-
David: I wanna have, I wanna have an answer
Seth: ... there's some discrepancies between the numbers here as, and then elsewhere.
David: Well-
Seth: Right?
David: ... kind of. So the, the, the, the, the, the discrepancy of numbers really has more to do with the tribe numberings and the clan numberings later on. So we might talk about that at a, at a future time. The, the, the difficulty with the 600,000 is-
Seth: Okay
David: ... let's think about that. So there's 600,000 men.
Seth: Fighting age men.
David: Fighting age men, 20 to 60.
Seth: Okay.
David: So the, most, most people would say that given the traditional size of a family of that time and the mortality rate, the overall size of the population to create 600,000 men between the age of 20 and 60-
Seth: Right
David: ... would have to be at least 2 million.
Seth: Okay.
David: So you have 2 million people. That is a huge civilization.
Seth: Yeah, that's huge.
David: I mean, gigantic. Um, and so there are some problems.
Seth: It's the state of Arkansas.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah. And so, like, there are some problems that come up. There's four problems that come up.
Seth: Okay.
David: So one is, um, the, there's just not enough space Around Mount Sinai in that region-
Seth: Right
David: ... to hold that many people. Um, their, the, the provision would have been insane. So when you read about the manna and quail and the water-
Seth: Right
David: ... that God provided, I mean, we're talking about-
Seth: It wasn't just, like, a personal... Like, 'cause whenever I read those stories, I'm thinking, like, "Man, that's a, that's a really cool miracle for those people."
David: Right.
Seth: But, like, as the president of a nation, you have two million people that are starving.
David: Yep.
Seth: You're like, "How on earth do I feed?"
David: Right.
Seth: How do I create a system of production-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that can feed two million people?
David: Right.
Seth: And the answer is you can't.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Not in the wilderness.
David: No. I mean-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think two million is the population of, uh, like Slovenia.
Seth: Probably.
David: Like, a- a-
Seth: Yeah, it's like-
David: ... a lot, and, and maybe even Latvia or something.
Seth: It's like there's-
David: But, like-
Seth: There's a lot of countries with two-
David: There's countries with two million people in them right now.
Seth: Right, yeah.
David: Like [laughs]
Seth: And they, and they require a whole system of government-
David: Agriculture
Seth: ... an, an agricultural economy-
David: Yep
Seth: ... an economy at all.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you need a lot of infrastructure.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You need roads.
David: Right, and so it's a huge number.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, we, we, we really have to understand that this is a gigantic number. So that's the first problem, is just the sheer size. It would just be really hard for them to think about, like, walking through the Red Sea, and getting through the wilderness, and camping around Sinai, and all that stuff. Okay, two, um, the, this is the, this is the big one for me.
Seth: Okay.
David: This is the, this is the only one for me that I'm like, "Okay, I gotta figure this one out." So there's inconsistent numbers between this number and another number [laughs] that we read here in a couple chapters.
Seth: Right.
David: So we're gonna try to look at chapters one to three, and at the end of chapter three, we get another counting, okay? And we're gonna talk about why this counting happened, 'cause it's really cool. It's the redemption of the firstborn, which should take us back to the Passover in Exodus. We'll talk about that. But what happens is God has Moses have another census, and this time, all he's supposed to do is count the number of firstborn men, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And so they count the number of firstborn men, and if you can find it in there, it's, like, 22,000-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or something like that.
Seth: Uh, 320, uh, 39, um, 22,000.
David: Wait, what? [laughs] 22,000?
Seth: Uh, Numbers 3 verse 29.
David: Oh, okay. [laughs]
Seth: 39.
David: I was so confused. [laughs]
Seth: There's 22,000 firstborn.
David: Okay. Um, and change, um, 'cause there's, there's some that are, that are redeemed.
Seth: Oh, yeah, 22,273-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in verse, uh-
David: There we go
Seth: ... 23.
David: Two... Yeah, so there's 273 that end up being redeemed, uh, with money. We'll talk about that later. And so there's 22,273 firstborn. Okay, so if you think about this, just do a little math, right?
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, we're in Numbers. Let's do some math, right?
Seth: Mm.
David: And so-
Seth: My favorite.
David: If you... [laughs] Yeah. If you think about it, um, in order for there to be two million people, right?
Seth: Right.
David: Let's say you have two million people, um, and then let's say out of that, that means that there are about 22,000 families.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because if every family has had a firstborn son-
Seth: Right. Right, right, right
David: ... then let's just say that there are at least, there, there are at least 22,000 families.
Seth: 23,000-
David: 23,000
Seth: ... if we wanna be-
David: Sure
Seth: ... round up.
David: Let's round up, and, uh, some, many, several hundred families only had girls.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay, sure. 23,000 [laughs] families. In order for 23,000 families to produce two million people, or 600,000 fighting men-
Seth: Right
David: ... the family size would've had to been, every couple would've had to have 50 children.
Seth: Okay.
David: Does this make sense?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: But couldn't you have, like, two firstborns in a family? Like, the father's the firstborn, and then the father is firstborn son of his parents. Oh, but he's counted as well.
David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's counted as the firstborn of his-
Seth: Of his family
David: ... of his family.
Seth: Okay, okay.
David: And so yeah, actually, that would actually make the number bigger because you would have m- you're talking about having more firstborns per family now.
Seth: Right.
David: And so that would actually shrink the number of family sizes and make it-
Seth: Oh
David: ... to where there was 100 children per family. So the problem, the problem here is that the number of firstborns and the overall population just don't quite add up. Okay? Uh, so that's the second problem. So space, inconsistent numberings between the overall population and the number of firstborns.
Seth: Well, in verse 43, it says, "And all the firstborn males according to the number of names."
David: Right.
Seth: What does that mean?
David: So we, yeah, we'll get there.
Seth: Okay.
David: I, I'm, I'm just laying out the problems-
Seth: Okay. That's the pro-
David: ... not the solutions yet.
Seth: That's the problems. That's-
David: Stop trying to solve my problems.
Seth: Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. [laughs]
David: There are solutions to these. Uh, number three, c- uh, they, they could've easily filled the Promised Land right away when they got in. I mean, the land of Canaan is very small.
Seth: Okay.
David: It's not big, and two million people would've edge to edge-
Seth: Right
David: ... filled that sucker.
Seth: Okay.
David: And yet, when we get to Joshua, there's, like, land left uninhabited, and they're still conquering it, and so it's like-
Seth: Well, it's just like Kansas. Like, there's, like, whole tracts [laughs] of America-
David: [laughs] Right
Seth: ... North Dakota. Who lives there?
David: Yeah. Anyway, so I'm just listing the, the problems scholars have.
Seth: Okay. [laughs]
David: Uh, I'm not saying these are my problems. Uh, number four, um, there is a lot of rounding in this census, and people find that, um-
Seth: Yeah, it's like 32,200 or something.
David: Right.
Seth: Really?
David: Now, there's a couple fives at the end-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, you know, uh-
Seth: These are all nice, round numbers, 35,400.
David: Right.
Seth: 62,700, 41,500.
David: And so it's like, okay, if, with all this rounding, surely there's, these are symbolic numbers, right?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And so now we start to get to the solutions. So there's, the... I- I find there's two solutions that are helpful.
Seth: So are we, did the solutions already?
David: Yes.
Seth: The only o- w- other one that I've heard-
David: What, problem, or?
Seth: A problem.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: A problem, is it goes back to the size thing that you mentioned. Like, so if you have two million people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... wandering through a wilderness for 40 years, you should expect to find some sort of archeological evidence-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... that they, that there was a nation living in the wilderness. You should find burial plots.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You should find pottery.
David: It's possible. The-
Seth: You should find-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you should find evidence-
David: Right
Seth: ... that a civilization was here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The bones of animals, you know. Like, you should find things.
David: Right, especially if, like, 7,000 people are dying in one place-
Seth: Right
David: ... at one time.
Seth: You should find some mass graves.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, but, like, you don't find that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: At least not yet.
David: Then again, yeah, then again, yeah, at least one-
Seth: So that's, that's, that's the other problem-
David: One, yeah
Seth: ... before.
David: One, yeah, one, not yet-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... right, for that solution, and two, um, nomadic tribes are extremely hard to find archeologically.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's, it's the-
Seth: But with nomadic, I mean, two million people, like-
David: Yeah, but still, they're still moving constantly. And so if you think about it, it's like i- there are these settled civilizations that, you know, we find, and, you know, we get, we get 20,000 years down in the soil in a deep tell.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we find shards of pottery, and there's like... People lived here for hundreds of years, and we find leftovers. It's like i- i- it's... I don't think it's too crazy to say that even if a bunch of people pass through here-
Seth: Mm
David: ... tens of thousands of years later, that there wouldn't be a whole bunch of stuff.
Seth: Right.
David: Anyway, there are archeological answers to that one.
Seth: Right.
David: But it is still a problem.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Yeah, so maybe there's five. Um, so first, the space.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? The, the land size, uh, and the provision. I, I... One, the provision one doesn't bother me, 'cause God is huge and can do crazy miracles.
Seth: And he, he-
David: And raining quail from heaven is-
Seth: Right
David: ... a crazy miracle.
Seth: If you're gonna believe that he rained quail on Manhattan-
David: You can, you can believe that he rained enough for two million people.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: Absolutely. So that one doesn't really bother me. Um, the, the space one-
Seth: And it would be necessary because as we said, like, in order to feed two million people, you need the infrastructure-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of an entire government.
David: Right.
Seth: And up, up until Exodus something, I forget the chapter, when Jethro comes and, like, tell-
David: 18? Yeah
Seth: ... when he tells Moses, "Here's how you should structure a government." You don't have any kind of government.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: And even then, you're a wandering government-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so you have no in- no real way-
David: Right
Seth: ... to build an economy. So, like, if God didn't provide, everyone would've starved.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: Or most people would've starved.
David: Right. Absolutely. I mean, they're in the wilderness.
Seth: And how do you... You can't farm anything if you're always moving.
David: No, if you're moving.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, exactly right. And so, um, I think that's... I don't think that's a problem, the provision. The space, um, I haven't really looked at the geography, so I'm just taking scholars' words for it.
Seth: You can fit two million people in Manhattan.
David: Right.
Seth: So like, I don't... [laughs]
David: Yeah, no, that's very true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: No, in, yeah. And Manhattan's, like, what? How many miles long is Manhattan?
Seth: It's not long.
David: No.
Seth: It's, like, I think it's one of the most densely populated spaces-
David: Right
Seth: ... in America, right?
David: I mean, and you look at, you look at Tokyo and-
Seth: Right
David: ... yeah.
Seth: You can fit a lot of people in a small space.
David: You can.
Seth: With our technology-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... now, so.
David: But it's... But, like, yeah.
Seth: But-
David: Yeah, I almost like, do, does that necessitate high-rises? Like-
Seth: But I mean, Jerusalem went, during the time of Jesus, would swell by-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... several hundred thousand people during-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the Passover and the Feast of the-
David: And Jerusalem's tiny.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's possible to have-
David: A bunch of people in a small space.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep.
Seth: So the space thing doesn't bother me as-
David: And we're not building houses. People are living in tents.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, they're all packed together.
Seth: Oh, I was talking about in the Promised Land.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: I thought you were saying, like, once they get to the Promised Land, there's not enough space in the Promised Land to hold two million people.
David: Oh, no, there is.
Seth: I thought that's what you were saying.
David: No, that was the problem three-
Seth: Oh
David: ... was that surely they would've just filled all of it right when they walked in.
Seth: Right, right, right, right, right.
David: Uh, but the other... But the, the problem is, like, around Mount Sinai.
Seth: Oh, right.
David: Is, like, could they have fit in the plain of Sinai?
Seth: They were there for one year, right?
David: One year.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so it's like, yeah, possibly they could've crammed in. Um, the inconsistent number one is interesting.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and there's not a lot of great solutions. The, the, the biggest one, uh, the best solution I've found is that, and it makes a lot of sense, is that the number of firstborns that are counted are only those who have been born since the Exodus.
Seth: Okay.
David: And because they are the ones that are redeemed, and so wouldn't it make sense that, um, these firstborn who were in Exodus, like, or have been born since the time of Exodus, they didn't have to be passed over-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the actual Passover story, and so they have to be redeemed here.
Seth: Or be-
David: They were redeemed by a lamb in the Exodus, those who were already alive.
Seth: There, there was a whole bunch... We talked a lot about the firstborn, the redemption of the firstborn-
David: Yep
Seth: ... back in the Exodus episode.
David: Right.
Seth: Passover. So there's a whole generation of people, the majority of people-
David: Yep, the majority of people
Seth: ... who've already been redeemed-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... by the sacrifice-
David: That's right
Seth: ... at Passover.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, well, well, actually, the language in, uh, Exodus 13:1, it sa- it says this, "The Lord said to Moses, 'Consec- consecrate-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to me all the firstborn. Whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and beasts, is mine.'"
David: Right.
Seth: So back in Exodus, there was this consecration that happened of all the firstborns.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So what you're saying is that fulfilled this price that has to be paid.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so what's happening in Numbers is there's 22,300 firstborns-
David: Right
Seth: ... and up to 22,000 you don't need to pay for. Why?
David: No, no, no. So, so- [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... what, what happened was, uh, so we... There's a lot going on here. So what you're saying is w- first, the first thing we have to r- realize is that when God comes and claims Israel as his nation, right, he is saying that, "I am, I'm the father of this whole nation now. And so all the firstborns then belong to me. They're mine. They're, uh, they're my right." Um, uh, and so in the Passover, though, he is giving those families back their firstborn. He's saying, "Instead of taking their lives like I did the Egyptians, I am passing them over and consecrating them, and now they're yours." But then we, we go into the wilderness, and we're at Sinai, and there's a year gap there. And if you've got a population of two million people, you know, how many of those women were pregnant? How many of them got pregnant? And so there's probably around 22,000 and change new firstborns that have come out of the womb and are now unredeemed. They have not been passed over. And so this, they are, they're unpurchased.
Seth: Right.
David: And so that's what we see, is that count the number of firstborn, possibly one solution-
Seth: Right
David: ... who have been born since the Exodus-
Seth: Right
David: ... or since the Passover, and then we'll set a redemption price for them. And so what the redemption price was is the Levites. And so the s- the tribe of the Levites, who's not one of the 12 tribes, they are set apart for the tabernacle of the Lord, to work the tabernacle of the Lord. And so he says one for one. Instead of requiring the firstborn of every family to come work at the tabernacle, instead I'm going to have Levite number one work for family tribe person number one and work-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in his stead.
Seth: So what you're saying then is there's 22,000-
David: Levites
Seth: ... Levites.
David: That's right.
Seth: And Levite for Levites, period.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then there's... Or fighting age-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... census capable.
David: And, and ca- yeah, and perhaps firstborn Levites maybe.
Seth: Okay.
David: You know, like, you know, but, I mean, 22,000 for one tribe, it could be a smaller tribe. That's, that's not crazy.
Seth: Right, or, uh, in specifically, specifically between 20 and-
David: Oh, between 20... Oh, yeah, that works then.
Seth: Right. 20,000.
David: Yeah, yeah, fighting age Levites, yes.
Seth: And then among the entire nation, there's 22,273-
David: And change
Seth: ... Firstborns
David: Yep. And so-
Seth: So there's one for one up to 22,000-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because there's 22,000 Levites
David: Yep. And so 273 of them have to be redeemed with money.
Seth: Right
David: And so you see at the, at the end of chapter three, there's a price set, and that money is brought to the tabernacle to pay for the firstborn of those 273 leftovers.
Seth: So why do you have to pay?
David: Uh, yeah
Seth: We were talking about this in Leviticus.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And it's like, there's a, there's a price of redemption that has to, that has to be paid. The- and, like, this is... It's not like God needs the money.
Seth: Right
David: It's for us to realize that, um, my relationship with God, my purity before him costs something.
Seth: We are not our own.
David: We're not our own. We're bought with a price.
Seth: Right. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, absolutely. And so, um, I think that's a really solid answer to the firstborn number issue-
Seth: That is-
David: ... is that it's those who have been born since the Exodus. Um, I think it's a solid answer. Uh, yeah.
Seth: So, like, verse 43 says, "And all the firstborn males, according to the number of names." What does that mean?
David: It could mean that, um, they, they wrote all their names down, and so as they... You, you can imagine someone with a, you know, a scroll, walking through every tribe going, "Who's the firstborn of your house?"
Seth: Mm.
David: "Issachar," and, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... writing the name Issachar down. "Who's the name, who's the firstborn of your house?" "Gad." "Okay, great." And then they went through and counted all the number of names that they wrote down, and according to the number of names was-
Seth: So it's like per- potentially then, there was a form of a census before this census. Like, Moses, when he, in Exodus 18, when he, like, established the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... all the 70 elders-
David: Right
Seth: ... for the nation of Israel, these elders trying to be responsible elders for their people said, "Okay, I need to know who my constituents are."
David: Right
Seth: So they went to their tribe and they said, "Okay, write down the names of everybody in your family, particularly the firstborn, so we can help adjudicate matters-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when inheritance issues come about." So they, the elders of Israel have a vested interest in knowing who the firstborns of all the families are.
David: Definitely.
Seth: And so in that sense, then, it would make... So according to the number of names, there might've been a book called the number of names.
David: The number of names. It could be. They were ref- referring to a document maybe. Yeah.
Seth: And then that would make sense. It would only be the firstborns since, uh-
David: Right, 'cause they were like, "That person's not in here."
Seth: Right
David: "That's a new one."
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, it's very possible.
Seth: Potentially. Okay.
David: Yeah. That's interesting. Uh, and then, um, easily filled the Promised Land right away was the third, was the third problem, but we've talked about Manhattan and-
Seth: Right
David: ... I think that's fine. Uh, and then the rounding, all the rounding that takes place.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Now, there is a, there is so- there are some that don't end in double zero, right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And so a lot of people say that what's happening here is hyperbolic, you know, where, like, the numbers have been inflated maybe by a factor of 10, maybe by a factor of 100.
Seth: Okay.
David: But if you divide some of these numbers by 100, the ones that end in, like, five-
Seth: Right
David: ... end up having a decimal remainder-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is like, well, that can't be right then.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: So it, it actually causes some problems for people who want to say that it's a hyperbolic multiplication
Seth: And it would be inconsistent 'cause some are 54,400, but then it's 22,273-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... for it. Like, so, like-
David: It's like, what?
Seth: There seems to be a specificity-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in one section-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's not necessarily-
David: Yes
Seth: ... expected another. And I think for me, this problem is solved by something else that I've learned just by studying the Bible more broadly, is that we in the West, in the 21st cent- century, have a value on precision-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that was not sh- it has not been shared by all times and all cultures.
David: Even now. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Even now. And I think the other thing we need to remember is that numbers in the Bible can be historically accurate and symbolic, right? So was Jesus choosing 12 tribes symbolic or historically accurate?
Seth: 12 disciples, you mean?
David: 12, yeah, what did I say?
Seth: Tribes.
David: Oh, yeah, 12 disciples.
Seth: Yeah, you're-
David: Well, there we go.
Seth: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: There's your answer. The answer is yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: It was completely symbolic, but he actually ch- chose 12 disciples.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, you know, and so, like, that's really important.
Seth: Or it's the difference between, between, say, I live, uh, 7.86 miles from Bridgeway.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Or, like, I live about nine miles away from Bridgeway.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, you know, like, both are accurate.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: They're just different ways-
David: One is exact
Seth: ... the, the point is about the truthfulness of the claim-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in what it's inte- uh, in that statement, the difference between 7.86 and about nine miles, I'm trying to communicate to you a truth-
David: Yes
Seth: ... about my distance to Bridgeway.
David: Right.
Seth: And there are actually multiple ways I can say that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's 7.86. It's about nine miles. It's a little-
David: Yep, as a, as the crow flies, or depending on which route you take
Seth: ... it's about 20 minutes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, all those communicate-
David: About 20 minutes
Seth: ... my dist- like, about-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, communicate the same truth.
David: Right.
Seth: So here in Numbers, what is being communicated?
David: Yep.
Seth: The number of people in Israel?
David: Yep.
Seth: The number of fighting-age men?
David: Right.
Seth: A comparis- like, I think, I don't even know necessarily. Like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... why are they all rounded? Well, obviously it's trying to communicate us, to us something. Maybe it's how many fighting-age men can we, uh, roughly expect if we go into war?
David: Right.
Seth: And so if I'm the commander-in-chief, I don't need to know 200 and, 22,273.
David: [laughs]
Seth: What I need to know is you have about 22,000 men-
David: Right
Seth: ... in this tribe. You have about 50- 55,000 in this tribe.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that says, okay, I have 600,000 men at my disposal.
David: Right.
Seth: I don't need to know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... 600,579.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? May-
David: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely
Seth: ... so maybe if it's a military census-
David: Right
Seth: ... that would make sense.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's supposed to communicate to you actionable intel-
David: Right
Seth: ... for a military campaign.
David: Yep. Yeah, maybe.
Seth: Maybe.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: It was my, it was my long-winded explanation-
David: Yeah. No, it's good
Seth: ... to try to get to-
David: I think it's really helpful. And, and there are still some scholars, uh, you know, that think this is accurate and historical. And, you know, the problem is a lot... Another one of the problem is that, like, a lot of the civilizations at this time just weren't this big. You know, like-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... like, the land, like, some of these other countries are like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... 10,000 people, 20,000 people.
Seth: So it makes what happened in Exodus, they increased and multiply-
David: Yes
Seth: ... m- feel more like a miracle.
David: Right. So let's, let's lean into that before I get to this one other crazy thing I wanna talk about.
Seth: Okay.
David: So the whole point, why, why, why the big number, whether it's historical or inflated? What's being communicated here is something theological, right?
Seth: Okay.
David: Because God promised Abraham that he would become a great nation, and his offspring would be so numerous that they would, they, that trying to count them would be like trying to count the number of stars in the sky. You just couldn't do it. They are an uncountable sum. And so we get to Numbers, and what we find is that this is a huge nation. The promise that God made to Abraham has come true, and there's a great nation here.
Seth: Right.
David: But it also hasn't come true, because the nation is counted.
Seth: Because the promise God made to Abraham-
David: Is for an uncountable sum.
Seth: Got it.
David: And here they are in h- cold, hard data, both, we're both seeing the beginning of the fulfillment, but also the fact that it's not quite fulfilled yet.
Seth: So if you're a care- if you're a thoughtful reader of the Book of Numbers, you're like, "Okay, these numbers..." Let's just say they weren't intended to communicate a specific truth.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which we would surprise say that that's not true. They, they do communicate-
David: They have to, they have to be communicating some kind of truth.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: But let's just take the most liberal interpretation possible, so they're just inflated-
David: Yep
Seth: ... for no reason except arbitrary reasons.
David: Hubris.
Seth: Hubris. So but even then, you would be able to say, okay, what's being communicated here is that the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham is actually happening.
David: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Seth: God is increasing the number beyond anything else-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the ancient world.
David: Yes.
Seth: They are being fruitful, and multiplying, and taking over the world by sheer force of population.
David: Right.
Seth: Maybe they were, there were 50 kids in each family.
David: [laughs] Yeah, right.
Seth: Right? Maybe, like-
David: Oh, right, right, right. Yeah
Seth: ... like, like maybe God-
David: I mean, Pharaoh was pretty concerned at, like, how insane the women were in childbirth. [laughs]
Seth: So, like, maybe this is actually happening.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God is pro- may- there's a theological point being made.
David: That's true.
Seth: But at the same moment-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... you can say this. You can say, "Well, the point is, God's increasing and multiplying them."
David: Yes.
Seth: But the fact that they're numbered-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... should tell you that Abraham's promise has not come true yet.
David: That's right, yep, so we're getting both of those things happening right now.
Seth: Got it.
David: Which is really interesting.
Seth: It is interesting.
David: Um, and what's cool is, you know, when you get then to the New Testament, right, and, um, Jesus is now the, like, the, the new Abraham.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we are his children, okay?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, and we take his image around. How many Christians are there in the world?
Seth: Billions.
David: How many have there been since Jesus came?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's an uncountable sum.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Right? And so, like, the promise to Abraham is now-
Seth: Well, is, that's what's-
David: Is now true
Seth: ... revelation.
David: And that's what Revelation says at the end-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... is, I looked, like, first you get the 144,000. He does his own census of the 12 tribes.
Seth: Right.
David: So we're getting a repeat of numbers here.
Seth: Oh.
David: So he goes through all the 12 tribes, in this tribe I saw this many, in this tribe I saw this many. It's 12,000, 12,000, 12,000, 12,000, right? Round numbers.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's, that's very symbolic, not ac- actual.
Seth: It's like this is the complete number-
David: Of-
Seth: ... of this tribe.
David: Yep, the, all, every single person from the tribe of Nephtali is now in, right?
Seth: Right.
David: Every person from the tribe of Asher is now in. Everyone's here.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay. And then he's like, "But then I looked out on those tr- on those tribes, and what did I actually see? Not 144,000. What I actually saw is an uncountable multitude."
Seth: Hmm.
David: And, like, there it is, the fulfillment of the-
Seth: Right
David: ... promise to Abraham. And yeah.
Seth: As, as crazy as the numbers might seem here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as unbelievable as the numbers might seem here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there is still a greater number of people who will be around the throne room of God.
David: Yes. That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. And so, um, yeah, so that's some, [laughs] some of the issues that's happening here.
Seth: So we-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kinda spent a long... So, like, if you're the nerdy type and have, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... wondered about all the-
David: Mm
Seth: ... theological implications and the difficulties of the text, I hope that was helpful for you.
David: Yep.
Seth: But for the average person-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... they've just slogged through Leviticus.
David: Yep.
Seth: They're trying to read through their Bible, and they're trying to make it meaningful to th- to them. How do you read the first three chapters and find them encouraging?
David: Hmm, yeah. Well, I mean, we haven't even talked about the arrangement of the camp-
Seth: [laughs] Yeah
David: ... which is also very encouraging.
Seth: Which is the, what the text talks about.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think that what we just said is encouraging.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What you should know as you're reading this is that God's promises are being fulfilled.
David: Yes.
Seth: Abraham, the nation of Israel is expanding at a faster rate. It's increasing and multiplying-
David: Yep, miraculously
Seth: ... probably miraculously. Maybe in competition to all the other surrounding nations.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Maybe not, but regardless, you should know God is completing the Edenic work of being fruitful and multiplying, and they're on their way to the new Eden.
David: That's right.
Seth: And you should see that in the numbers.
David: Yep.
Seth: You should see that cr- those crazy numbers that are rounded up to say, "God is fulfilling the promise he made to Abraham."
David: Yeah, and that's, that's what's being communicated.
Seth: Right.
David: Right off the bat. Okay, let me say one last thing about numbers, then we'll talk about arrangement-
Seth: Okay
David: ... of the camp, and we'll be done.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay, one last thing. This is, I, I'm not convinced of it yet-
Seth: Okay
David: ... but it's too cool to not just mention.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Okay, so I was reading, um, Wenham, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Gordon Wenham, a great conservative evangelical scholar. Um, and h- he actually spent a lot of time talking about this crazy interpretation which I, I say crazy 'cause it sounds crazy, but it's actually quite sane.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It sounds like a weird blog you would read online.
Seth: Okay.
David: But it's actually, like, a well-attested scholarly report that a lot of people have kind of hopped on and said-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... "Oh, that actually sounds like it could be possible." All right, so in ancient Mesopotamia-
Seth: Okay
David: ... before the time of, like, Israel and, like, maybe while they were enslaved or whatever-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... there was this, um, mathematical system that was developed, um, based on astronomy.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay? So, like, they would measure the distance between the stars and the sky, what, how long was a, a lunar year, right? How long was a, um, oh, what's the other year? Solar year.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep, and, uh, and they, they would, like, measure these things meticulously, and it's called the sexagesimal system.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay? [laughs] So, like-
Seth: Continue
David: ... hang with me.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, but what's really interesting here is, um, the- If you ran these numbers-
Seth: Right
David: ... of the population of each tribe through the sexagesimal system of Mesopotamia, which was contemporary with this time, and widespread throughout the known empires of the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... ancient Near East, they actually end up corresponding to lunar years, solar years, the distance to Saturn, the distance to Venus, all these things.
Seth: What?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. And so think about this, right? What did God say in 15:5, Genesis 15:5, to Abraham? "Your- your descendants will be like the stars in the sky." Right? What- what did he call Jacob's sons at the end of Genesis? He says, "Jacob, your sons are like the star and the moon and the sky... and the, and the sun." Right? And then, uh, and then he often talks about, like, how God's heavenly hosts are the stars.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And Israel is his earthly host, they're a reflection of the stars in heaven. And so what's happening here is what he's saying is, like, "You are my heavenly host here on Earth. You, you are the stars in the sky that I've put here on Earth. You are-
Seth: You-
David: ... you are Heaven and Earth coming together. You are where Heaven dwells, Israel."
Seth: Based on the-
David: [laughs] Isn't that crazy?
Seth: That's... I mean, well, that feels like a great answer to all-
David: It's a good, it's a good answer
Seth: ... to all these things we've been talking about.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's the one that kinda makes me worship the most.
David: I know, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Maybe- maybe that's not the best litmus test.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But, like, yeah, it, this is...
David: There are some problems with-
Seth: Right
David: ... the dude's math.
Seth: Right, okay.
David: So there's some, like, there's some problems.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it also, and- and- and by say some, very few, actually. The, some of the biggest questions are, one, how did slaves find out about the sexagesimal system, right?
Seth: Right.
David: But my response to that would be, well, Moses wrote the Torah, and he was trained in Pharaoh's house.
Seth: Right.
David: So he definitely would've had access to this l- to this knowledge.
Seth: So Moses reflecting on Abraham-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or- or meditating on Abraham's promise.
David: Yep. I mean, he wrote it down. [laughs]
Seth: Your, your, uh, your, you'll number-
David: The stars in the sky
Seth: ... you'll be the stars in the sky.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, well, I know this whole system based on numbering-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that's about the stars.
David: About stars.
Seth: And I could see the fulfillment of God's promise right here, right now in our people. And so let me communicate to you the point that God is fulfilling the promise to increase and multiply this family to Edenic levels.
David: Yeah.
Seth: To, like, to their perf- so I mean, again, we said the first 10 chapters of Numbers are really optimistic. Like, this is, like, it feels like the ful-
David: Yeah, very optimistic, yeah
Seth: ... feels like the f- fulfillment of Eden. They're about to go into the new Eden, into the new Promised Land. So it would make sense for Abraham to come to the people and say, "This is God's new covenant community. We will inherit a new Eden, and we will live with God forever. He's actually right here already."
David: Yep.
Seth: What if it was God's promise? The, the people of Israel would be like the stars in the sky, and we actually have a whole system of thinking about the universe that that actually corresponds to.
David: Right.
Seth: Well, so, like, we have a s- a theory of the universe, and so I'm just gonna pretend that that's true for a second-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and put it here and said, "Look, we are like the stars in the sky."
David: Yep.
Seth: Not m- maybe because it's numerically accurate-
David: Right
Seth: ... but because it's faithful to what God is actually doing among Israel in that moment.
David: And what's crazy is it could be both.
Seth: Hm, right.
David: I, I, and I think that's-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... for me, I think that's the coolest thing, is that... And that's why I wanted to spend so much time arguing for the historical accuracy of these numbers, that they're actually tenable, because I, there's no reason why in God's sovereignty, and we see it all throughout the Bible-
Seth: Right
David: ... that historically accurate numbers end up being theologically significant numbers.
Seth: Hm, right, right, right.
David: And that can happen here. And so I think that, like, that should actually double down on the fact that God's being faithful and being sof- sovereignly working in this nation.
Seth: Right.
David: Is he's saying, like, "I have miraculously grown you into this super nation, and w- when I count you, let me show you what happens." It ends up corresponding to the stars in the sky. Like, that's pretty cool.
Seth: Right.
David: Anyway.
Seth: That's super fascinating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It makes me think of, like, the, um, Sumerian king list and the genealogy in Genesis.
David: Yep, it's, you, we, you definitely should be thinking about that right now.
Seth: So if you haven't listened to our episode on, I guess what that's Genesis 5 and 6.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, there's these ancient lists of kings, and they're living for thousands and thousands of years, and so-
David: Hundreds and hundreds of years
Seth: ... hundreds and hundreds of years.
David: Right.
Seth: And in the, uh, um, in Genesis, you have all these people living for hundreds and hundreds of years.
David: Yep.
Seth: And in the Sumerian kings list, it was to prove to you that these god, these people are divine. Look at them. They're living for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. They're clearly divine, aren't they?
David: Right.
Seth: And then you read about the patriarchs of the Hebrew religion, of the followers of Yahweh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and you have the same thing happening. Surely, these are the gods.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: But what you hear-
David: Is they die
Seth: ... is they die.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he died, and he died, and he died. So the, when you read Genesis, you're not asking, "Why are they living so long?" If you're an ancient-minded person.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're asking, "Why are all these divine beings dying?"
David: Right.
Seth: Why are the representatives of God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the image-bearers of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... dying after dying, like, dying.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's what you should be thinking.
David: Right, and what you're saying, I'm g- I'm thinking is-
Seth: Right
David: ... is w- did they live that long? Or, or w- was that, is that historically accurate or theologically accurate? And it's like, there's no reason why both can't be true.
Seth: Right. I would probably side on the fact that I think it's a theological point-
David: Right, definitely
Seth: ... not a-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... physical age point. I don't necessarily think-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Methuselah lived 986 years.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I al- also don't think my, my faithful reading of the Bible is inherent on that, dependent upon that.
David: Right. But it's also not, like, but he also could have.
Seth: But he also could have.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, I'm, I'm, I don't care-
David: Right
Seth: ... if he actually lived that long or not.
David: What, what, what matters is what is the point God is trying to communicate through it?
Seth: Right.
David: We believe it, that is an inspired number.
Seth: Right.
David: And that God meant that number when he, when he inspired Moses to write it.
Seth: Exactly right.
David: But the, the real reason, wh- what you're saying is, what's the theological point? So the same thing is happening here in Numbers.
Seth: I'm more concerned about the theological point.
David: Theological point, not, not whether or not there were 600 and 3,000 people.
Seth: If there, if there was 600 and 3,000 people, great.
David: Amazing.
Seth: If there were not, the theological point still stands.
David: We can worship- [laughs]
Seth: God is faithful-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to his promises-
David: Right
Seth: ... to create a people that is numerous as the stars in the sky.
David: Yep. And so let's think about that. Like, I wanna, like, lean into the New Testament a little bit and just think about the fact that, like, like, we look at the population of the world, seven billion people, nearing eight soon, you know, whatever, and it's like- How can we reach them? You know, like, and like, will God's people be found among the nations? Will God grow his church, um, in Saharan Africa and-
Seth: Right
David: ... in Communist China and, you know, [laughs] like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, like, uh, in, in, in Russia, in, in North Korea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In Oklahoma. [laughs] Like, a- and it- and it's like-
Seth: And Oklahoma needs Jesus. [laughs]
David: It really needs Jesus. But it, it... You do. You, you read this and you're like, man, there's nothing God can't do, 'cause he grew a nation of 603,000 people while they were enslaved, and Pharaoh was trying to kill their kids, and he made a great nation out of them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's nothing he can't do. And now we have-
Seth: I mean, we still see the same story played out-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in places like China.
David: Yes.
Seth: The underground church movement-
David: Is booming
Seth: ... even as it's being oppressed by the Pharaoh-
David: Yes
Seth: ... uh, Xi Jinping.
David: Yep.
Seth: It is exploding.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: It is exploding.
David: That's right.
Seth: The natio- the story of Israel is still happening-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... around the world.
David: The number, the, the, the, like, ticker of n- the number of Christians in the world just keeps turning over and keeps-
Seth: Right
David: ... growing. Um, and, and I, I just think we should be encouraged by this number that we see here at the opening of In the Wilderness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, I'm just gonna call it that from now on.
Seth: Into-
David: Into the Wilderness
Seth: ... Into the Wilderness.
David: [laughs] Uh, okay. Anyway, let's just end real quick and talk about, um, the, uh, arrangement of the tribes around the camp.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that that way, when we come back, we can do chapter four. [laughs]
Seth: Great.
David: Um, yep.
Seth: So, so if you're reading this and you wanna be encouraged, the first thing that you should know is that we're going to the new Eden.
David: Yes.
Seth: And second, that these numbers are proving that God is faithful to his promise to Abraham to create a nation that is numerous as the stars in the sky.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the third, which we're about to talk about, is that God is still living in the middle of his people.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so the whole structure of the two million-ish people, uh, of Israel is built around God's presence being at the center. [gentle music]
David: So the, the next [laughs] arduous thing that might be hard to read is how God arranges Israel around his camp. So first, y- y- I mean, God's, like, acting like a city planner.
Seth: Right.
David: And so he's like, "Let me count how many people I have, and then let me, like, arrange them in a certain way." And the way he arranges them also has deep theological significance. You hinted at the most important one already.
Seth: The numbers.
David: Uh, no, no-
Seth: In the Book of Numbers
David: ... no, [laughs] no.
Seth: [laughs]
David: The, the centrality of the presence of God. That is what God is going to hammer home these next two chapters, chapter two and chapters three, and really, throughout the next, uh, all the way through chapter 10, is that over and over again, we see that God is at the center of the camp. And so there's the tabernacle in the middle, and then he sets up, um, the, uh, four tribes on the north, four tribes on the south... Uh, three. Three tribes on the north-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... three on the south, three on the east, three on the west.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That kind of thing. And so that way, all the 12 tribes are around him.
Seth: So it should look like... In your mind, think of, like, a cross.
David: A cross, yep.
Seth: And in the m-
David: Not like a-
Seth: Not-
David: We're not gonna make a Jesus turn there.
Seth: No. No.
David: There's not one.
Seth: But, like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Just think of, like, a T.
David: Yes.
Seth: Think of a T.
David: Right, a T. [laughs]
Seth: A lowercase T. [laughs]
David: A lowercase T.
Seth: And in-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the middle of that T, in the-
David: At the, at the-
Seth: At where everything crosses
David: ... at where everything crosses-
Seth: Yep, mm-hmm
David: ... is the temple of the Lord. That's right. And so God's presence is with his people.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that is what... He's like, "Come around me, guys."
Seth: Or you could think about consec- concentric circles.
David: Oh. Yeah, where-
Seth: Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you have a dot in the middle.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: The presence of the Lord. First tribe, second tribe, third tri- or-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... third, third ring of tribes.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: I, I see what you mean.
Seth: You know what I mean?
David: I see what you mean. But yeah, but if we do that, we miss the next really cool thing-
Seth: Okay, okay
David: ... is that in between the tribes of Israel and, um, the temple of the Lord, there is a ring.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it's the Levites form a ring around the tabernacle.
Seth: Right.
David: And, and [laughs]-
Seth: When you say a ring, one, a section of the family on the north, section of the family on the south-
David: Yep
Seth: ... section of the family-
David: He separates the Levites, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they are to form a... But he actually says to form a barrier-
Seth: Mm
David: ... around the temple, around the tabernacle.
Seth: Okay, okay.
David: And he s- [laughs] it's crazy. This language blows my mind. He says, "So that you," the Levites, "might bear the wrath." Like, so you might bear the sins of the people.
Seth: Yeah. In 1:53 it says, "But the Levites shall camp around the tabernacle-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the testimony." And I guess the tabernacle of the testimony means the tabernacle-
David: That holds the l- the tablets-
Seth: T-
David: ... the Ten Commandments
Seth: ... the tablets, the testimony of God-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... the words of God. "So that there may be no wrath-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... on the congregation of the people of Israel, and the Levites shall keep guard over the tabernacle of the testimony."
David: Right. And then, uh, later in, like, in chapter 3, it says that, uh, chapter 3:38 says that Moses and Aaron s- actually sit at the entrance of the tent of meeting to guard the sanctuary itself and protect... What would you expect to follow?
Seth: Right.
David: To protect the sanctuary, or to pro- you know, right?
Seth: Right. Like, they're the guar- they're the guardians of the tabernacle.
David: Yeah. It's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... no, you can't come in here. This is a sacred space. And no, that's not what it said. It's to protect the people of Israel. [laughs]
Seth: Mm.
David: It's to keep them safe, because-
Seth: Well-
David: ... just before this, it actually r- reminds us of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what happened to Nadab and Abihu.
Seth: Right, and it goes back to what we said in, throughout Leviticus.
David: Leviticus, yeah.
Seth: Like, God's holiness is like the surface of the sun.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And unless you're pro- like, unless you have a s- a, a p- are properly prepared-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... with the, you have the right technology to enter the surface of the sun, you'll be burned up.
David: Yep.
Seth: So God's holiness, his presence, his life, his light is in there, and the priests act as a buffer around it, saying, "We will mediate bet- between-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the people and the temple and God's presence."
David: Right.
Seth: Uh-
David: So that when, when wrath apparently is supposed to break out-
Seth: Right
David: ... it should fall on the Levites.
Seth: Yes.
David: And they are the in- and that's actually, when we get to chapter, like, 16, it is the tribe of Korah, which is one of the tribes of Levi, that are the first to be burned up.
Seth: Mm.
David: And they actually do this, but they don't do it because they're protecting the people, they do it 'cause they're sinning themselves. [laughs]
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: But it is like a, a picture of what should have happened, but in reverse.
Seth: Right.
David: Anyway.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, yeah.
Seth: So they're mediating between-
David: They're mediating
Seth: ... the people-
David: Right
Seth: ... and God's holy presence.
David: Right.
Seth: And they're the w- the buffer The trans-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the transaction, which I don't like that word-
David: Right. Yeah
Seth: ... to describe it, but it like is an animal. Anyway.
David: Yep. And so I mean, it's amazing then to, to kind of like think about this. So you have the, the tribes are on the outside, and they're in God's presence. It's the good place to be. But you talk about concentric circles, that's what's happening here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is there's God's holiness in the middle, the ring of Levites around them, and then the tribe of Israel around them.
Seth: Right.
David: And, um, what's amazing, I mean, i- if you think about the gospel in the New Testament here, where it's like Israel was around the taber- the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? Um, and, and, and then there was supposed to be, like, the, the priests there at the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then-
Seth: There's one more concentric circle-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... 'cause I know, but because there's the, God's presence-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the Levites-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Israel, and then the rest of the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yes, yes, yes
Seth: ... there's one more concentric circle.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like this is an outpost in a pagan-
David: Mm.
Seth: A pagan world.
David: Right. And as Israel marches, and they're supposed to take the presence of God to the nations.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: And so Jerusalem stays in the center-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the concentric circles grow-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and, like, distance from each other, but the idea is that as Israel grow, the boundaries of Israel grow-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the boundary of God's presence grow.
David: Yes. Yeah, and like, and then amazing then in, like, Acts 1:8 what, what's said. Like, take this news, right, to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and then the ends of the earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the concentric circles-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from Jerusalem out into the nations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so but then in the gospel, all that gets, like, not reversed, 'cause we still do that.
Seth: Right.
David: We are still God's outpost. Now we're the tabernacle itself. We are dwelt with God.
Seth: Right.
David: You know? And then we act as a holy buffer to the world, where we-
Seth: Right
David: ... a- and we, we say, "Come," you know, "Enter in."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we still go out to the nations, but what's crazy is Jesus-
Seth: Brings them all in
David: ... brings us e- all in. He comes to the nations. He goes to people in Samaria.
Seth: Well, instead of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... instead of humans expanding the kingdom, the temple itself is expanded and stretches over-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the whole world.
David: Right, by dwelling in humans.
Seth: By dwelling in humans.
David: Oh, so crazy.
Seth: So instead of the temple being the locus, the center, the smallest point of the presence of God-
David: Yep
Seth: ... got the tent of meeting, the tent of God's presence actually stretched out and covers the entire world.
David: Yes.
Seth: And encompasses all people.
David: Right. It's amazing that... And it just also just makes, when Jesus rips the veil at his death-
Seth: Right
David: ... it makes that so much more significant because it's like we were, he was outside the city.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Outside the walls of Jerusalem. He was not encamped around the tabernacle.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet because of his death, we enter through the tribes, through the holy buffer, 'cause he's our holy buffer now-
Seth: Right
David: ... and into the Holy of Holies-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where the testimony is. And it's like-
Seth: And which is why the first person in Mark to say that Jesus is God is a, is a centurion.
David: That's right.
Seth: And the first peop- people to see Jesus at, uh, resurrected are three women.
David: Yep.
Seth: So it's like people who would not have had access-
David: Those who are outside
Seth: ... to the-
David: Those who not e- weren't even numbered in the census.
Seth: Right, are those that come in.
David: Yeah. That's really cool. Uh, and so the o- I guess the other really in, somewhat interesting thing to talk about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with the arrangement of the tribes, these are marching orders. Like, this is how to march, you know? It's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how would they get this many people across the, the wilderness?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Well, it's like this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, here's your answer. Like, there's organization. Uh, but then, uh, what's really interesting is, uh, the, the, the, the firstborn, uh, son of Jacob was Reuben, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: A- and, and yet he is not given the place of prominence in the arrangement of the camp. Uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the, the closest... The, the tent faced toward the east.
Seth: Towards the sunrise.
David: Toward the sunrise, exactly right. And so that was where the opening was. And other than Mos- it w- and with Moses and Aaron, and then the Levites, and then the, the tribe that was closest to the opening flaps of the tabernacle-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the tribe of Judah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they are given the place of prominence among all the other tribes. Um, they are the ones who are the closest to the opening of the tabernacle. And, uh, I just, I think it is somewhat interesting that that's the tribe that Jesus comes from.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's the one who brings us to the opening of-
Seth: Right
David: ... the tabernacle-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and lets us in through the, through the east.
Seth: And the reason why that should be significant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like towards the sunrise, towards the east, is that all throughout Genesis-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and I think even Exodus, although I can't remember.
David: I can't remember. Mainly, definitely Genesis.
Seth: But definitely Genesis, like to the east-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is always a sign of judgment. So, like, the Adam and Eve are cast east of Eden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Cain goes east of his parents-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... into the land of Nod. And every time you go east-
David: You're going farther from the Promised Land
Seth: ... you're going farther and farther from the Promised Land. So now that they're going east into the Promised Land feels strange.
David: Right.
Seth: You should be... Wait, wait, when you go east-
David: West [laughs]
Seth: ... you go, you should be going west to get back to-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... Eden. But it's almost as if, like, they've circled the entire world, and they continue to go east, and now they're about to enter into-
David: Right
Seth: ... Eden again.
David: Yeah. That's amazing.
Seth: It's like the circle is completing itself.
David: Right.
Seth: That's why it's so optimistic, like we're f-
David: Right
Seth: ... we've gone east far enough.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: That the Lord has brought us back, and he's bringing us back to Eden.
David: Yeah. Yeah, and it's crazy. It's like we, we just... And it's, like, in their sin. It's like they just kept sinning so much that God was just infinitely merciful to bring them all the way around the world to himself again.
Seth: It's like, yeah, I mean, that's, so what a great picture, like we always go east of Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We always leave the Garden of Eden. We always com- continue to, to commit the sin of Adam and Eve, and we'll keep going east and east and east and east and east until we've gone east far enough that the Lord will save us.
David: Mm.
Seth: And going east will actually bring us back to Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he will discipline us.
David: Yep.
Seth: He will punish us for our sin. There will be, or he w- there will be a buffer between us and him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And when we pass through that buffer-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we will actually get back to the Eden we were kicked out of.
David: That's right. Yeah. Well, there's some, there's some numbers.
Seth: There's some numbers.
David: There's some numbers. So we'll, uh, we'll look at chapter four and on next week. Um, but, uh, this has been fun, and, uh, my brain hurts a little bit after all the counting. But, uh, man, get, get into Numbers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Get past chapter 10.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I would just beg you guys. It's like an action movie later on, and it's really interesting, and there's so many Christ figures in the Book of Numbers that we're gonna look at. So I'm excited to start it, I really am. Um, and, uh, so yeah, keep, keep plugged in, and we'll see you guys next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
