Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast.
Seth: Welcome.
David: Um, this is the very first podcast that we're recording in two separate cities at the same time.
Seth: Which is the... That's the marvel of technology.
David: It is. Seth is, is on my computer screen, and-
Seth: And David is on mine.
David: It's, uh-
Seth: I see-
David: ... it's not as nice as having you right next to me. I gotta admit.
Seth: I see his bookshelves. He sees my duct work in my basement. [laughs]
David: Your duct work in your basement. Where I was, I was there just, uh, like last week.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In your basement. But uh, anyway, we're gonna continue talking through the Book of Numbers. Uh, we've just looked at, um, the story of Balaam and, uh, his, his trying to curse the people of Israel, but being w- w- restrained and instead blessing them.
Seth: Where God intends for cursing, God intends for blessing.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yep.
David: And then we, uh, and then we looked at the final rebellion of the, uh, old generation, and we looked at, uh, Phinehas and, uh, how he was the-
Seth: Oh, I forgot about Phinehas
David: ... uh, consummate priest.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah. And, uh, and then we, uh, we kinda looked at some of the, the strange laws there at the end of that section with the daughter, with the five daughters of, uh, what was the name? Zelophehad or something.
Seth: Zelophehad.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it was like, it was the way in which the... These laws were the way that God's promises would continue to new generations. And-
David: Right
Seth: ... a particular one was how it would continue if you had no male heirs. Like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... would the line continue? Yes, it will. Property will pass to the daughters.
David: Right. And so now I think something we also, else we didn't really mention at the end of last, um, episode is, you know, Israel was already talking about how they were gonna divide up the land and what land rights would be and all this stuff before they even entered the land. And so-
Seth: Okay
David: ... this was supposed to be, um, kind of a show of faith, whereas the older generation on the border of the land, they were afraid to even go in. The younger generation, they're already counting their-
Seth: They're just like parcelling it out before
David: ... they're counting their eggs before they were... counting their chickens before they were hatched, you know, kind of thing.
Seth: But in faith, yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, in faith. Like, they're like, "Oh, that land that we'll definitely get, uh, how are we gonna divide that up?" You know? And so here-
Seth: That's funny
David: ... we're looking forward. So that, that's supposed to cast our vision forward to the promised land, to when they're going to enter into it.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so, uh, we kind of get some regulations now about, uh, feasts and festivals and, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Israel's calendar that are supposed to guide them o- once they enter the land.
Seth: Yeah, it, it should make sense. Like, as the old generation was about to enter into the promised land, God came down on Mount Sinai and gave them the Torah for the first time. As they're about to go into the promised land, the new generation, they're kind of re-given all the laws again. Except this time it's not like all the laws, the 10 Commandments aren't given again. It's really just their sacred calendar.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's how they're supposed to structure their time. So there's daily offerings, Sabbath offerings, which is weekly offerings, monthly offerings, and then their festivals throughout the year. So the next two chapters are all about how Israel, once they get into the promised land, are supposed to remember the way that God has provided for them in the wilderness and in Egypt.
David: Right.
Seth: That's-
David: And so-
Seth: ... what this whole section's about
David: ... I think, and I think that, that you, you, you made a really good parallelism there with the old generation getting commands, this new generation getting commands, and there's something really important happening here with the old and new generation. So the old generation, if we remember at the very beginning of Numbers, there's all these chapters that we walked through that laid out kind of holy space for Israel. You had the tabernacle in the middle, and then you had the ring of priests around that, and then you had-
Seth: Right
David: ... the tribes of Israel around that, and you had the, the rabble kind of around the, the end. And, uh, the whole idea there was to be as we travel through the wilderness, let's remember the centrality of Yahweh, um, to our distinctiveness-
Seth: God wants to live with his people
David: ... and to be our people. Right.
Seth: And he, he in the center of the camp kinda controls everything. He lives with us.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right. And so now, but, but the question becomes, once we enter into Israel and have this new promised land and we all inhabit these different corners of this land, we're more spread out, and we're not as close to the, the temple as we used to be, how, how are we to orient ourselves around Yahweh? Well, no longer is it going to be organized around holy space. Instead now we have the organization around-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... holy time.
Seth: But I mean, Israel... I mean, Jerusalem would end up becoming, like, the de facto center of the country, right?
David: Absolutely right.
Seth: Like, even though it's like-
David: I, I, I guess, I guess the, the, the way to word it is not instead, it's in addition to.
Seth: Okay. So-
David: It's not, not instead of holy time or instead of holy space it's holy time. It's-
Seth: But, like, what's happening here-
David: ... now in addition to holy space it's holy time
Seth: ... in the wilderness, like you are always within walking distance of the temple.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you know, like you were a day's, like half a c- half an hour, an hour journey-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the temple-
David: And your-
Seth: ... to the place you sacrifice
David: ... and your, and your very coordinates within Israel are tied to how they are related to God in the center.
Seth: Right.
David: If you live on the north side of the camp, it's because the temple is south of you.
Seth: You are in-
David: Right? [laughs]
Seth: You are right.
David: Yeah. And so, like-
Seth: And so soon people are gonna be-
David: ... you're always oriented around it
Seth: ... like l- uh, what, what's the word? Like, immigrating. They're gonna be, like, planting-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... prospecting. They're gonna be on the frontiers of some land-
David: Right
Seth: ... and there's not... The primary, um... Well, what, what did you just say? Like, the primary way that they locate themselves is not gonna be-
David: Right
Seth: ... around the temple.
David: Orient themselves. Yep.
Seth: Is gonna be around, like, the farmland or the geography.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so how do you live like that? Well, you have a special emphasis on holy time. Like weekly-
David: Right. And, and like we should-
Seth: ... daily, monthly.
David: Right. And we should say, like, these, these moments of holy time and festivals and feasts- ... call people back to the temple, the holy space, right? To do these things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, so it's not, it's, it really isn't meant to be put, to put them at odds with one another. But there is this also cool thing that you, you pointed out that is, that is really neat here. So in the holy space, you had the tabernacle, the center, then the priests, then the people. So there's like these concentric circles of holiness, we've called it in past episodes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Here, you even mentioned, there's like what to do during the day, the week, the months, the years. So it kind of also has these concentric circles of holiness around your calendar.
Seth: Yep.
David: Where it starts small in the center, but then, you know, grows out in these like ripple effect rings that take over your whole calendar.
Seth: And what's, so as you're reading, that's what you should realize too, is that these are compounding. So we, they're compounding and they're comprehensive. So scattered throughout the Torah so far, there had been made mention of certain types of sacrifices or rituals that you're supposed to do, but often they were like left unsaid. So, uh, Numbers 28 starts with these daily offerings. And appear- In, in, in Exodus 9- 29, uh, God makes mention to Moses of daily offerings, but doesn't describe what they are, and just tells him that he should do them. So here for the first time, you get a detailed list of what all those daily offerings should be.
David: Mm.
Seth: So you have this sense that the author of Numbers is compiling all the different, um, sacrifices that had been listed throughout the Torah, and compiling them together for the new generation so that when they go into the land, they have a, like a, like a what? A cheat sheet of everything-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that they're supposed to do, so they know that they won't forget, and they don't have to reference, you know, the whole story to get them all. Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, that does make sense. I, I'm, I think the question I'm asking as you're, as you're saying that is, uh, why? Like, why have this cheat sheet at the end? Like, why not just, "Hey man, just read the Bible," you know? [laughs] "Just read your Torah, you'll get it all eventually."
Seth: Well, I-
David: Is there, is there like a significance to this final moment before entering the land of giving them all these, these like c- those consummate c- commandments? Like, is there something happening here?
Seth: Well, I mean, one, I think it's, if you, I'm assuming that there's like a high... Like, Phinehas is a great example.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The, this new generation wants to be obedient, and they're zealous for obedience.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so like if anybody is zealous for good works, we want to be obedient to the Lord, they would often probably find ways to like sol- like, to not canonize, but to like solidify what's expected of them. So like, I've, I know what's expected of me broadly, but, and my kids know what's expected of them broadly as members of my family, but we still have a chore chart that they refer to-
David: Right
Seth: ... because it's helpful for the purposes of obedience.
David: Right.
Seth: So you have hundreds of sacrifices mentioned throughout the Torah. So you have one specific space right here where you have this new generation who wants to be obedient, and it's compiled for them to be so, and it's a comprehensive list. Nowhere, nowhere else in the Torah has a comprehensive list of the sacrifices needed daily, weekly, monthly, and per festival been laid out yet. So I think like those-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that's what's happening.
David: I think that's helpful. I think the, the idea of, of saying like these people were zealous for obedience, and therefore God gave them what they ultimately wanted, which was, "Tell us how to obey. Tell us how to not fall into the sins of our fathers. We want to orient ourselves around you. Help us do that." And God's like, "Here it is, all in one." Um, so let, before we move on to some other things in this text, uh, let's talk a little bit more about holy time and why festivals, why feasts, why daily, monthly, weekly, yearly rhythms. What is it about these, um, this holy calendar that was so important to God? I mean, it was established even in like the order of creation. Like, God rested on the seventh, and then now we rest on the seventh-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the Sabbath. So like, like when you think about holy time, what do you think about?
Seth: I think, I think, I think primarily about remembrance.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, Israel's proven that they are a people that forget. [laughs] Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's like-
David: Definitely. Yeah, definitely
Seth: ... they're, they're-
David: Yep
Seth: ... they're people that forget what God has done for them, and so God has instituted in the way that they live their life, reminders, like weekly, daily reminders, monthly reminders of how God has provided for them, and how he continues to provide for them in, in the camp. So I think they're like one way that God shows mercy to Israel. They're his way of like continuing to like habituate the story of their rescue and redemption by his hand, like in the sacrifices, in the provision for their sins or whatever else. Like, it's a way that, um, God is providing. It's, it's a... Does that make sense? That God is providing-
David: It definitely makes sense
Seth: ... a way of mercy.
David: And I think, yeah.
Seth: Like regularly-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to remind them of what he's capable of and what ha- he has done.
David: Yeah, and what he has done, definitely. Because I mean, if you look at some of these feasts, I mean like, you know, the Feast of Booths is supposed to remind them about the time that they lived in booths or little tents around-
Seth: Right
David: ... Mount Sinai. It's supposed to re- remind them of Mount Sinai. The Passover is supposed to remind them of the Passover [laughs] whenever God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... spared them in Egypt.
Seth: Like, the Sabbath is supposed to remind them of the cre- uh, of creation-
David: Of creation
Seth: ... and how God-
David: How God works
Seth: ... is in control. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Definitely. Uh, so I think that all makes sense. And like, let's kind of, let's jump, 'cause I wanna, I wanna close this holy time loop a bit so we can talk about other things. So let's, let's talk about holy time in, in the Christian world, and like how have, how has, how have some of these things continued, um, in the early church and extended to today? I mean, the Lord's Supper is probably-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the number one thing to think about here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when we talk about holy time. As often as you meet, you know, we break bread and-
Seth: Re- re- remember this thing that happens.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I mean, we've, I mean, Christmas, Easter-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like these are regular celebrations. If you come from a l- more liturgical church, you have, you know, even-
David: A lot more
Seth: ... Tide, Advent. You, you have like whole, like the whole year is a, in a particular season of the Christian life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're celebrating the Ascension, you're celebrating Lenten, you're celebrating, uh, either mourning, lamenting, feasting, fasting. Like, you're trying to engage the story of the Bible, not just with your mind, but with your body and your emotions and your h- like your, uh, habits of your heart, and like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... even your belly, like [laughs] when you like fast. Like it's a-
David: Yeah, when you fast. Yeah.
Seth: A h- like maybe that's another way to talk about like the purpose of sacred time. It's like- incarnate your obedience to the Lord.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's not just mental assent.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's actually like you are incarnating your obedience by living your life according to a certain rhythm.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so that's the purpose of sacred time.
David: Yeah, I really like that. And I think you've hit on something in both Old and New Covenants, so both here in Numbers and now in our present day, is the idea of remembrance. You know, like even Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of me." And you know, now... You know, and you said in Numbers, the feasts were there to help people remember what the Lord had done, and we're about to turn the page here in a few chapters to Deuteronomy, where one of the key words throughout that whole book is "remember," because-
Seth: Yep
David: ... if you remember what God has done, if you look back at what He's done, this will cause you to love Him because of what He's done for you. It will create love in your heart. And if you have love in your heart for the Lord, you will obey His commands. And so how does, how does God get us to obey His commands? He causes us to remember His faithfulness and His goodness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that's how He leads from one to the other. And so I think for us as Christians today, when we talk about, you know, how do I live more like Christ? How do I, uh, live a more Christ-like life? How do I fight sin? How do I be holy? How... You know, all the... How do I be the person God wants me to be? However you wanna turn that phrase, you know, uh, more culturally relevant or not. [laughs] And, uh-
Seth: Right
David: ... and I think the answer is, like, okay, let's look at the Lord's supper, let's look at Jesus's call to remember Him, let's look at Numbers, and what is God doing here? He's saying, "Remember me."
Seth: Right.
David: "Meditate on what I have done in the past." And for us as Christians, that is consummated in the death of Jesus and His-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... resurrection-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and hope in His e- eventual return, and that will reorient your life around me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So there is a way that we can kind of enter into the camp of Israel, in a sense, and put God's presence at the center of our life-
Seth: Mm
David: ... by rehearsing holy time.
Seth: Right. That's exactly right. I think, I think that the Cr- I think, I mean, I think... I've, I've been reading You Are What You Love by James K.A. Smith-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... right now.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he talks about how we lose a lot of the intended, um, force behind the Bible when we s- simply remember mentally, and we don't remember, like, physically with our bodies. That's why communion is not just a moment in the service where we just pause and think about Christ's death and resurrection, but we actually eat something and we drink something. Like, we're reliving a moment, not just with our minds, with our bodies. I think that's what, uh, 28, 29 are showing us. Like, there is, like, a rhythm that needs to be obeyed in our, in our lives, and not just a thinking thing, but it's a feeling, doing, embodied, loving thing.
David: Yeah. Which I think should also point us, at least briefly, and even, even if it is, even this is on the periphery, it still should be mentioned, is this should point us to the value of incarnation, that God didn't just love us with his mind, [laughs] right?
Seth: Right.
David: He incarnated his love.
Seth: And tell us that He did it. Right.
David: Right. Exactly. He came and actually had nerve endings and actually had an empty stomach and actually got thirsty and actually drank wine and actually went to the cross and actually-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... laid hands on people and actually washed feet. Like, it was-
Seth: Yeah, he-
David: ... incarnated love.
Seth: Yes. And I think-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, one of the, the unique things about Christianity is that Jesus actually, the God who is invisible, not only is incarnated, and a lot of religions will say that's an, an impossibility-
David: Right, or even blasphemy
Seth: ... but more th-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, like, uh, yeah, exactly right. Or the fact that Jesus, like, showed himself publicly and, like, opened himself to being debated like that. Like, he's a falsifiable god.
David: Mm. Right.
Seth: Most other religions have people, like, coming... Like, the, the divine being coming to you in private revelation, like, you know, Joseph Smith staring into his hat or, uh, the Hindu Vedas being downloaded to somebody. Like, we have God who actually comes and is publicly available to us in his body. You can stick your fingers through his, the nails in his hands. Like, no other religion has that type of public, falsifiable-
David: Mm
Seth: ... aspect to it. It's only o- Christianity has that, uh, that embodied incarnate vision for what it means to be human and divine and to be saved. [gentle music] So we just finished talking about why the idea of ritual and rhythm in your calendar is good news, like incarnated bodily rules are good news. But before we move on to vows, we wa- wanna talk a little bit about Genesis 1 and how this is a fulfillment of the creation mandate.
David: Yeah. So there's some interesting things that we should be k- like clued into here that, that are happening that should kind of remind us of the days of creation. So you, you have morning and evening feasts, or sacrifices I should say. Like, these are the sacrifices for the morning, these are the sacrifices for the evening, which mirror-
Seth: What are those? Sorry
David: ... the language in Genesis 1. Uh, let's see here. It's under the day of sacrifices.
Seth: Are they...
David: Uh, let's see.
Seth: Oh, that's right. Yeah, every single day you're supposed to offer sacrifices, not just in the morning, but in the evening.
David: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, the... I, I can just find this one here in verse eight. "The other lamb you shall offer at twilight," which is like the, the opposite-
Seth: Right
David: ... of the one that's offered i- in the morning.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like, it's kind of following that pattern of there was morning and there was evening the first day, you know? And there's that kind of rhythm to the sacrifices that follow the rhythm of the days of creation.
Seth: Mm.
David: Um, obviously, then Sabbath offerings follow next. After morning and evening, in verses one to eight of chapter 28, in verse nine, you have the Sabbath, which after all-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the days of creation of morning and evening, you have God resting on the Sabbath, and now we're told to rest on the Sabbath. Um, and then the monthly, um, and yearly offerings follow often the lunar calendar or the solar calendar-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for the days of the year, which God put in place in day four. And so there, there's this-
Seth: Okay
David: ... th- so what, what's happening here is, like, the-
Seth: The author is, like, restructuring their, their religious calendar after the ... the providential calendar of God as he, like, recrea- well, he, when he created the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's cool.
David: And, and I think there's a really special reason for that, and I think it's just to show that there is something restorative or creative or generative, uh, uh, about living in God's holy time.
Seth: Mm.
David: That when we orient ourselves around Yahweh, when we, when we put him at the center and, and we follow these rhythms that he wants us to follow, when we remember what he's done in our past, we end up creating new creation around us, which is what Israel was supposed to do.
Seth: It doesn't just remember, point us back to creation, but it actually-
David: Yes
Seth: ... brings about new creation-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in this exact moment.
David: Yep. This is h-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... this is one of the ways that Israel is a light to the nations, that Israel's a blessing to the nations, that she, that she is a priest to the nations. Uh, and so, like, as she orients herself around God's time instead of man's time, she brings God's rule, reign, and creation onto the world.
Seth: Which, and I think then it's fascinating that s- these days of creation, like, the creational rhythms are marked by sacrifices because Jesus literally identifies himself as each one of those at some point in his ministry.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's the fulfillment of all the different feasts, and he does that throughout the Book of John and Mark-
David: Right
Seth: ... Matthew. He's the fulfillment of the Sabbath. He is the Lord of the Sabbath who is sacrificed for us. He even talks about how, uh, he's the first born of all creation, and by him and through him were all things made. And the way that that's remembered even in the Old Testament is through sacrificing lambs-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of which Jesus is the, the final lamb, right [laughs]
David: Right. Yes
Seth: ... like, like, how does new creation come about when we live in God's time?
David: Mm.
Seth: But when Jesus lives in God's time as well and dies as each one of those sacrifices, the daily, the weekly, the monthly, the-
David: Right
Seth: ... festival lambs.
David: So how will we, how will we be new creators in the world around us? How will we bring God's creation and restorative nature to the, to the world in which we live? By remembering Christ's death and his resurrection, by rehearsing the gospel, by remembering the sacrifices, we will live our lives in such a way that we impact the world around us with the gospel of Jesus.
Seth: And as we, like, reorient our lives and our calendars around Jesus' life and his calendar, we join him in that recreating work just like Israel did. Like, the liturgies of our life, like, the patterns and the rhythms of how we structure our day can bring new life to our world as they're patterned after Jesus.
David: Yeah. So I love that. I just wanted to, like, mention it, and it was one c- extra cool little connection-
Seth: That's really cool
David: ... that I saw Levitator bring up
Seth: I like that. I like that
David: So, um, okay. But then before we close out this section, uh, because right after, we have one more section of law, basically, before we get back into narrative, which, uh, with, uh, I think it's a, a war that takes place, uh, the vengeance on Midian.
Seth: The vengeance on Midian.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, uh, there's this section on vows now. So we've talked about festivals and feasts, and now we get a section on vows. And thoughts on why, why this is here, what it's doing here, maybe an overview of it.
Seth: Well, it's the same pattern in Leviticus. Like, Leviticus has a whole bunch of laws that dictate the way that you're supposed to sacrifice, then it ends right as they're about to enter into God's presence with a section on vows. So I wonder if it was just patterning after Leviticus. But also textually, it says, uh, it, it, like, prepares us to expect that. I think back in Numbers 28, it talks about the vows that you bring to the Lord, so this is that comprehensive list of how, like, or an ending of, like, how you make vows to the Lord.
David: Okay.
Seth: So potentially that's why.
David: Yeah, I think another thing, and I didn't think about this until a comment you made earlier about, um, the younger generation's zeal for obedience.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, I think we talked about in the last vow section that people might be a little overzealous in the, in a bad way about, like, God has said, "You're not gonna enter the land, you know, you're, you know, I, I, I've already passed this judgment on you." And so the people might be thinking, "Well, I'll just make some vows, and that'll overcome God's judgment." And he's like, "No, don't make rash vows."
Seth: Right.
David: And here it's kind of a similar thing but in a more holy way.
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah.
David: It's like-
Seth: They're like, "We wanna"-
David: ... you guys are zealous for obedience. You guys want to obey.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Phinehas has got you all pumped up. Uh, now, when you make vows, be careful, like, because-
Seth: Right
David: ... I'm gonna hold you to them.
Seth: Yes. And I think probably, I think that's a good general point to be made.
David: Mm.
Seth: But I think the text actually probably gives a little more information-
David: Okay
Seth: ... because the whole thing is not about vows in general. It's about women and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... making vows.
David: Right.
Seth: Which is-
David: Which is, like, kind of a theme that's being developed with the daughters of Zelophehad.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now again-
Seth: That's exactly right
David: ... and then it's on women, which is really cool, too, just, like, especially in the ancient Near East in this world th- they, you would not have provision for women in laws, and now we're getting two huge discourses on them back to back.
Seth: Right. And so the first time I read through this, I was like, "Oh, why can't a woman make a vow on her own?" Which was kind of, like, the way that I kept reading it because-
David: Oh, I understand
Seth: ... verse six, "If she marries a husband while, uh, while under her vows or any thoughtless utterance of her lips by which she has bound herself, and her husband hears her say it and says nothing, then it stands." So why is it that a woman's vow is always dependent on either her husband or her father's, like, approval of it?
David: Mm.
Seth: So that's wh- the, the first thing that came to my mind. But the second thing that I re- realized was that, um, verse 16, it says, "These are the statutes that the Lord commanded Moses about a man and his wife and about a father and his daughter while she is in her youth within her father's house." So I realized, like, probably a lot of times these w- girls are very, very young.
David: Very young.
Seth: So, like, when we talk about women in fathers' houses, that's not just, like, grown women. These are children.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, you have children who are trying to obey the commands of the Lord, and they make rash vows.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the father is supposed to say, "No, no, no, that's not the way that we... We don't make vows thoughtlessly."
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's supposed to train his daughter and not, like, let her, like, r- ruin her life by a rash vow.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, I think there's a fatherly protective element in that first one. And then on the second one, the husband one, I think what's happening here is that spouses are always supposed to be dependent upon one another, and this is less about the woman being not allowed to, but the man abdicating his responsibility.
David: Mm.
Seth: Because I think this whole thing is supposed to, we keep talking about- The fact that these calendar rhythms are supposed to recreate Eden, like bring about new creation. What happened in the Garden of Eden? The man sat by idly as the woman ate the fruit. And here you have a situation where men have the opportunity to sit by idly while their wife or their daughter makes a rash decision and does nothing.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And the law is directly addressing, "No, you must say something in order to stop that foolishness." You're about to go back in the Garden of Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Don't recreate the sin of your forefather, Adam.
David: Oh, right. Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: 'Cause this, the Canaan is the new Garden of Eden.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: I see what you're saying. Yeah. Wow.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: So you can't do what your father did. You need to be new Adams.
David: Hmm.
Seth: You need to be better than Adam. You need to n- you need to be co- like be in a relationship with your spouse, relationship with your daughter, where you can call them out on that and make sure that you do not take vows rashly. And we talked about this all the way back in the beginning. Like, the purpose of vows was to, like, make God do something for t- for you, right? And, like, the p- part of the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the reason why they're discouraged-
David: Like, yeah, you're petitioning him or something.
Seth: Yeah, you're petitioning him, trying to get him to do something special for you. But part of the reason this is discouraged both here and elsewhere is because God has already given you everything. He's giving you a new Eden. What more do you need from him? [laughs] It's just like you don't need to make extra vows when God's already told you how you can receive his blessings.
David: Hmm. Yeah.
Seth: Right? Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I think that's really good. Um, and this is, like, a strange kind of patriarchal-seeming text, and so, um, uh, I think that's a helpful distinction, or, or not distinction, but comparison to make with Genesis 3 and the abdication of, um, our one another-ness even. You know, not even male/female, but just, like, Adam and Eve-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... were a partnership, you know?
Seth: Submit to one another out of reverence-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... out of reverence for Christ. Yeah.
David: Yeah. And, and so, um, I think that's really cool. Um, I mean, there, is there anything else in here indigenous to Numbers 30 that you really wanna talk about? Because there is some really blatant, like, ways to see Jesus in this text that-
Seth: I was just-
David: ... I'm dying to get to
Seth: ... I was just about to get there. [laughs]
David: Do it. Go.
Seth: Well, so I was looking at verse four. I'm just gonna read verse 13, 14, and 15-
David: Great
Seth: ... 'cause I think these are really part of the heart of how, if you were gonna be reading this for yourself and seeing Jesus, I think this is kinda the heart of it. So it says, "Any vow and any binding oath to afflict herself her husband may establish." So the husband can, uh, ratify it. Um, "Or her husband may make it void by saying nothing, or, uh, but, or by saying something. But if her husband says nothing to her from day to day, then he establishes all her vows or all her pledges that are upon her. He has established them because he has said nothing to her on the day that he heard them. But if he makes them null and void after he heard them, then he shall bear her iniquity."
David: Yeah, I love this text, especially that last line that says, "He shall bear her iniquity," 'cause that just sounds so much like Jesus. So we kinda wanna take this all in and say, "What's happening?"
Seth: If you ever hear the phrase, "Bear their iniquity"-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... it's like just circle it.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, this is probably your Jesus term-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the passage. [laughs]
David: And so l- let's look at what's happening here in what Seth just read. So, um, there's this woman that comes. She makes a vow, and it could be a rash vow. Um, and, uh, th- her husband ends up saying nothing, and therefore, the rou- the vow is ratified. Uh, she is bound by it. And if she breaks that vow, she must bear her own iniquity.
Seth: Right.
David: She is responsible, uh, for the fact that she breaks that vow if she made it and the husband says nothing. But if the husband wants to come and, and say, "I wanna free her from the responsibility of that vow," then the husband has to bear the iniquity himself instead-
Seth: Got it
David: ... of the bride.
Seth: Right.
David: And so in order to free the bride from her vow, the husband has to come and bear the iniquity himself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if the husband wants to. And so, I mean-
Seth: Oh, man
David: ... there's a couple other things to talk about here, but, uh, very generally, what, what happens is [laughs] Jesus comes, and we are, we, we, we, we have failed miserably, and we should be bearing our own iniquity, but instead, Jesus comes and frees us-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by bearing the iniquity, uh, that we deserve.
Seth: It's like-
David: But there's a lot of things happening here too about, like-
Seth: It's like Jesus is doing both, both things. It's like we're sinning.
David: Yes, exactly.
Seth: We're, we're, like, thoughtlessly making vows, thoughtlessly, like, trying to g- g- get God to do something for us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so Jesus says nothing. He allows us to continue in our path to sin. Like Romans says, like, He bears patiently-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... with us, and He allows us to experience the consequences of our rash decision-making. But just like the law says right here, He also bears our iniquity.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, like, in, so in that same space where Jesus is, like, justifying us, Jesus also makes null and void the rash vows by bearing the weight of our sin on himself. He speaks a better word than our rash vows. He speaks a better promise, and he redeems us. He buys us back from that.
David: Yes. Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, this is what I love about Christ-centered reading of scripture because you're able to approach a text like this, and you would, you would either have to go, "This is a weird text that has nothing to do with me."
Seth: [laughs] Right.
David: Right? Or you're like, or you could really try to be like, "Okay, what's the principle behind the text?" The, you know, like, the truth that's there that's timeless, you know, 'cause we don't make vows anymore, you know, most people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, or you can understand what it was in its original context of what God was trying to do and then say, "How has he done this more fully in Jesus?" And you get this beautiful picture-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the fact that we've been make, we've been sinning, making rash vows of like, "Hey, I'm good enough, and I could be judged based on my own merit, you know? Like, just try me."
Seth: Right.
David: And we try all these things, and, and God's like, "Okay, just, yep, I'll let you. I'll let you." And then, but instead of just letting us, you know, just get stuck in that, he enters in, and you can kind of see-
Seth: Nullifies our rash vows
David: ... he nullifies it. I, I mean, I kinda like this im- this mental picture-
Seth: Bears our iniquity
David: ... of, like, of the, of the, of the husband, like, busting into the temple and being like, "I want to nullify my wife's vow."
Seth: [laughs]
David: And like, you know what that means, right? You know? [laughs] Like, anyway, but that's just-
Seth: Right, right. No, it's-
David: ... what Jesus does for us.
Seth: Or on the other side of that, it's like we are people that make rash vows, but we're also people who abdicate our responsibility and don't intervene when we should.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: We don't just make rash rou- vows. We also don't do what we ought.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So, like, we, and the Lord, [laughs] like, comes to us too, and he calls us to action. He calls us-
David: Right
Seth: ... to, like, live our lives in a pattern like we just read in 28 and 29, and he also dies for our sins as well. He also bears that iniquity, the, bears the iniquity of Adam so that-
David: Right
Seth: ... we can, like, be new Adams and new Eves towards one another.
David: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. It's like, uh, he, [laughs] he's, he's not only our, like, new and better husband, you know, who we're the bride who made a rash vow and he comes and saves us. We're also a bad husband who abdicated our responsibility, who doesn't speak up for injustice, you know?
Seth: He comes as the better wife, as the bride, you know? [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't know if, I don't know.
Seth: Yeah. I was trying to make a weird, like-
David: But he comes as the better, like, yeah.
Seth: All right.
David: But he, like, he also re- replaces our role-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you know, and is like-
Seth: That's exactly right
David: ... "I can do it for you." You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Not only on behalf of you, but I can also do it for you." Uh, and yeah, it's just, it's so cool. Uh, I love that. Uh, but anyway.
Seth: So whether you're a husband who's abdicating his responsibility-
David: Right
Seth: ... or, uh, anybody, not just a wife, who's rashly making promises to try to get God to do something for you, you can rest that Jesus makes null and void our best attempts at righteousness. He bears our iniquity, and he gives us what we most desire, himself. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
