Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. We're glad you're joining us.
Seth: Yes.
David: We are going to be wrapping up the Book of Numbers today. Uh, so-
Seth: I'm-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I'm really excited to be ending Numbers, not because, like, I'm exhausted by Numbers, [laughs] but I just like putting a bow on something. [laughs]
David: Yeah, it does feel good to finally, like, get through something. That's always a good feeling.
Seth: Our fourth book of the Bible will be completed.
David: Yeah. That's true. That's kinda neat. I like that. Uh, and so last week, um, I felt like was a really important episode.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We talked about holy war. Um, it's like the first command we come across in the Torah where we see, um, God through Moses, uh, specifically commanding the, uh, death of young children and, um, even women. And so if that's something that, like every other person I've ever met, you've struggled with, I would encourage you to go back and listen to last week's episode on Numbers 31.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, it was... I f- I f- I found it really helpful. Um, and, uh, yeah, I went back and listened to it and kinda g- got even more from it than whenever I was, we were doing it live, so.
Seth: You were edified by your own words? [laughs]
David: Or y- I think they were mainly your words that I was edified by. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Something like that.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, and so anyway, uh, we're gonna be wrapping up with, uh, Numbers 32 through 36, because this section is all about kind of final preparations for entering the promised land.
Seth: Right.
David: So-
Seth: You c- you sh- should read the Book of Deuteronomy as, like-
David: Numbers?
Seth: Uh, uh, no, D- Deuteronomy is like-
David: Oh, you meant, yeah
Seth: ... the next-
David: You meant it, the next one
Seth: ... the ne- the next book is like, it's Moses' final speech-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as they're walking in. So I kind of always imagined the Book of Deuteronomy, like, there's this huge crowd of people. Moses has a microphone. He's shouting to the masses, and they're about to take the land right after he finishes speaking. So, like, when you get to the end of Numbers, you should think everything is set. There's nothing left for them to do, no plans left to make, no laws left to institute.
David: Mm.
Seth: They can just walk into the land after the end of Book of Numbers. It's kind of the way-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's set up for you. Like they-
David: I think another way to look at it, I think another way to look at it is because the Book of Numbers just kind of ends weirdly, where it's like the daughters of Zelophehad are, like, talking about land ownership rights and marital law, and then it's just over. Um, and I think we're supposed to realize that this is kind of the middle of a narrative that is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... then picked up in Deuteronomy 1, where Moses gives, uh, kind of finishes this speech and finishes these laws and ordinances-
Seth: Mm
David: ... about entering the land, 'cause Deuteronomy's all about entering the land.
Seth: Right.
David: And so I think we're supposed to, like... That's why it feels like Numbers doesn't really land the narrative plane because-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... it's still kind of in its descent whenever we get into Deuteronomy. And so it's s- this book's really supposed to hold our hand into the Book of Deuteronomy. At least that's kinda how I see it.
Seth: No, that's helpful. Yeah, it's like all the things, everything, all the kinda, like, niggly bits that might be, like, walking off-
David: Niggly [laughs]. Is that not a phrase?
Seth: I don't know.
David: Niggly bits.
Seth: Is this from your Scottish heritage?
David: It might be. I mean, I've only heard that before.
Seth: [laughs] It's just all these, like, little loose ends in your mind. [laughs] David's just losing it right now. [laughs]
David: Oh, it's good.
Seth: Uh, like there's just, like, loose ends, like, "Well, what about this law?"
David: Right.
Seth: Like, "What happens if that happens?" And like, well, what about Gad and all these people who need all this livestock land? Like, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what hap- like, any loose ends that you might have in your mind as you've been reading, or you are a Hebrew person living during that time are being summed up here, and then the rest of the story gets picked up in Deuteronomy.
David: Yeah. I like that. Okay, so that's kinda where we are. Um, you can kinda remem- remember broadly where we've been. Um, the, they set out, the people of Israel set out from Sinai to enter the promised land. The older generation refused to go in out of fear and lack of faith, and so they were punished. God said that, um, they would, all the older generation would die in the wilderness, and so they traveled around for 40 years until all the Israelites, um, died, uh, because of more disobedience and more lack of faith. And now we've met the younger generation, and we've had Balaam prophesy over them that they are still blessed despite all they've done to be cursed. And the younger generation is proving themselves as more faithful, and now we're gonna try this again. We're gonna go back to the promised land-
Seth: Right
David: ... see if we can enter in, and that's where we'll get, um, kinda after the Book of Deuteronomy in the Book of Joshua. So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is where we are. Um-
Seth: And so far in the story, these guys look like they should have the right to walk into the new Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, they've been obeying. They're zealous for God's commands. They're zealous for His law. They're completing His law. And then we kind of have in chapter 32 what Moses thinks is a threat to that within the new generation.
David: Yeah. Okay-
Seth: So-
David: Before you dive into that-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... unpack, uh, unpack two words you just said for me.
Seth: What were my two words?
David: Uh, the new Eden.
Seth: The new Eden. So we've talked about a couple different times how the land of Canaan is supposed to be where, uh, the Garden of Eden will be rebuilt, where God's people live with God forever in perfect harmony. And we're waiting for the people that can live with God perfectly. And so we've had different failures for different reasons, and we're hoping that now as the nation of Israel gets its own land, God will come and live with His people once again like He did in the Garden of Eden. Up to this point, this is the closest thing we might get to the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, where the seed of Eve- The nation of Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... defeats the seed of the serpent, the Canaanites in the land. So we're hoping-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that once they take over, God will come back like he did in the Garden of Eden.
David: That's pretty good.
Seth: That's kind of, that's kind of the hope.
David: And I, that's really good. I, that's a, a, a helpful extra little bit of, um, gospel prophecy that we didn't even pick up in the Holy War episode last week about how take the conquest of the Canaanites is a fulfillment of Genesis 3:15. That-
Seth: Right
David: ... you have literally, if you trace them through Genesis, this is the seed of Eve, the nation of Israel, and if you trace the seed of the serpent through Genesis, you get the Canaanites and the Perizzites and all these other ites, [laughs] and they are the ones that are living in Canaan. And here we go. Will the seed of Eve crush the seed of the serpent? This, we're, we're thrown back into the tension of the fall and the garden. That's a really-
Seth: Yes
David: ... cool way to think, see this. Okay, so now go, go where you were going with, with Numbers 32.
Seth: So there seems to be a first threat to this new generation being the promised people of God. So Gad, Reuben, and half of the tribe of Manasseh come to Moses right as they're about to cross over the Jordan River and s- and kind of look at the land. They say, "We've got a lot of livestock, a lot of sheep, a lot of cattle, and this land is really perfect for our needs. Moses, can we stay here and not go with you into the Promised Land?" Moses freaks out because this is the exactly the same thing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... at least he sees it, as what happened back in, uh, the beginning of Numbers where, or yeah, beginning of Numbers, where Israel refuses to go into the Promised Land because they're too scared.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because they don't tr- because the, everything's going on in the land.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They respond by essentially saying, "Well, no, no, no, we will go into the land, and we'll even be the frontline soldiers with you, but we want to stay here." And what's... And then Moses says, "That's a great, that's a great plan. That works for me."
David: Yep.
Seth: And essentially what you sh- I, when I read that the first couple times, I was like, "Well, I thought God promised them the land of Canaan, not the land-
David: Mm
Seth: ... outside of Canaan."
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: But what I remembered was in Genesis 15, God kind of sets up these four parameters like you, like from the Euphrates to this other river from the-
David: Oh, like the border
Seth: ... south. The border of like-
David: Okay
Seth: ... the whole nation, and the land, uh, the land on either side of the Jordan River is within the parameters-
David: Oh
Seth: ... that God gives in Genesis 15. So-
David: So they're still inside the new Eden.
Seth: So they're still inside the new Eden, just not in the land of Canaan.
David: That's cool.
Seth: So, so there you go. So that's what ended up happening, and Moses, they're not disobedient. That's kind of the whole point of chapter 32-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is that there's a place provided for the livestock, the people of Gad, the people of Rud- Reuben, and they're still being obedient to the Lord.
David: That's cool. I love the picture too, if we wanna th- I mean, think about that, like what, what [laughs] these people are doing. They are willing to go and fight a fight for a land that they're not going to possess 'cause the land that they're talking about has already been conquered. They, you know, they're talking about, um, some land that was conquered, I think with the king of Sihon or something. It was conquered earlier in Numbers.
Seth: Right.
David: And so this land's already been conquered. It's already Israel's. Um, there's no more wars to be done. Like, they, it's move-in ready, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: And, and, uh, and now they're saying, "No, you know what? We're willing to go fight a fight that, quote-unquote, 'isn't ours,' in order to win a victory for someone else."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And-
Seth: For our, like, for our people collectively.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And like, what a picture of the gospel. Like, Jesus-
Seth: Mm
David: ... goes and fights a battle for us even though his territory was, was move-in ready. Like, he was at the-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... right hand of God already, and yet he came into a land that he didn't have to go into, you know, into Earth, and he fought a fight that n- necessarily wasn't his, and, and then he won a victory for us, uh, for the collective people of his body, um, so that we can enter into a final land with him. I just think that's a cool little picture of the gospel.
Seth: It is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And really, after that, we get this long extended travelogue.
David: Yes.
Seth: So chapter 33 is just a very long list of the places that Israel went while they were in the, the wilderness for 40 years.
David: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Seth: So you can go back and you can read, uh, Exodus and the early parts of Numbers and all these places line up with the rest of the narrative. It's just the places that they went with very-
David: Right
Seth: ... little narrative detail.
David: And why, why, why, why would that be here at the end of Numbers, like, before they enter the Promised Land? What is the narrative force behind this? Like, have you given any thought to that?
Seth: I have, and I had a really hard time coming up with an answer. I was like, well, one, it could show that, okay, they w- it's, like, historically accurate. You can go visit these cities and know-
David: Oh, sure. Yeah
Seth: ... that the people of Israel were actually in those places. It also probably would serve, like, the new and future generations, like, "These are the places that your parents rested and stayed because they were in the wilderness." But beyond that, I had a hard time figuring out, like, why?
David: Yeah.
Seth: I know there's some ancient Near East parallels to this.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There are, like... So, like, this is, like, uh, the same way, like-
David: It's a type of, it's a type of literature
Seth: ... a type of literature.
David: Literally.
Seth: So, like, we have travelogues. We watch Anthony Bourdain or whoever on. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: It's like he's just, he's just going from place to place to place.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, but, um, I, I couldn't think of a reason beyond that.
David: I know some of the, some of the commentaries I read, they talk, and I think it makes sense, they talked about how there, there's two things being accomplished here because, uh, you can kind of walk through, like, yes, like you said, there's not a lot of narrative given from place to place. It just kind of lists this city and that city and this city and that city. But if you look at the places where Moses slows down and gives a shred of narrative detail, you notice two things. So on the one hand, you'll notice that Moses is reminding them of God's faithfulness, that God was faithful whenever we fought this king or that king and brought you victory, and remember no one died, and isn't that amazing, like, how faithful-
Seth: Right
David: ... God has been? Won't he then be faithful to us when we go into the Promised Land?
Seth: Okay.
David: He's, like, strengthening their faith before they go into the place where they're- ... their ancestors lost faith. You know, like-
Seth: Okay. I see that
David: ... he doesn't, he d- he doesn't want them to repeat the mistakes of the past, and s-
Seth: Well, it, it begins with, uh, "On the day after the Passover, the people of Israel went out triumphantly in the sight of all Egyptians." Like, it begins-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with God's faithful provision of-
David: Right
Seth: ... rescue. Yeah.
David: With the Old Testament Gospel story. Like, the Exodus story is the gospel of the Old Testament. And so he's saying, "If y- if I can just repeat to you God's past faithfulness, that will create in you the faith necessary to walk into the plans God has for you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, I mean, that's very similar to us today, right? That, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how do we have what it takes to live the life, um, that Jesus asks us to live? It's not by, like, trying really hard. It's by remembering the Gospel, by looking back at his path- fa- past faithfulness so we might be faithful today. So that's what he's doing on the one hand. The other hand, there's also times where Moses slows down narratively and focuses on warnings, like when he would look at God's punishment that happened here or there at these different places, and some of the camps-
Seth: Got it
David: ... and places that he names are specific places where things went really bad. And so you can kind of see him rehearsing the warnings about-
Seth: Mm
David: ... a lack of faithfulness, a lack of-
Seth: Right
David: ... trust, where it's like, now, God's been faithful in the past, so he'll be faithful to bring you in. But remember, you've been faithless in the past. Don't be faithless in the future, because God's-
Seth: That's right
David: ... punishment is there, too. So there's blessing and curse, life and death.
Seth: And that's even, and that's even seen in those first four, three ver- two verses where it says, "I brought you out of the land of Egypt on the day of Passover, and I, uh, judged their gods."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Verse four, "On their gods also the Lord executed judgment."
David: Totally.
Seth: So, like, it's like, there's a preface that says, "Blessing. Curse."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then the little narrative details throughout it kinda highlight those same two things, blessing and curse, blessing and curse.
David: Yeah. Absolutely.
Seth: So that's helpful.
David: Yeah. And so, like I said, I think, um... And I know I- I've thought about this before. Um, I don't know if you and I have processed this, um, but about, like, proper and improper motivations for the Christian life.
Seth: Okay.
David: So, like, so I think we would definitely agree that a proper motivation for the Christian life is looking back on God's past faithfulness.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? And being like, "Okay, like, let's... The more I meditate on the Gospel, the more I understand the depths of the debt that Jesus has paid for me, the more I will then go and forgive others-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, like, not hold-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... other people's debts against them. That's a very common Jesus teaching, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but what about the other half of this? Like, is fear of judgment-
Seth: Mm
David: ... a, a correct and right and holy motivation for faithfulness to God? 'Cause he-
Seth: Well-
David: You know, it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I, I've heard Tim Keller talk about this as, like... And his answer was, like, "Why wouldn't you want as many motivations as possible?" [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yes. I've heard him say the same thing. I think, and I think, I mean, who, who disagrees with Tim Keller, besides a lot of people?
David: Plenty of people, I'm sure. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: But, uh, [laughs] but, uh, I would... I, I think I would agree, just I want as many motivations to obey Jesus as possible, and clearly this new Israel, the one that might potentially come into the new Eden, also is looking for as many reasons as possible. Like, they don't seem to be afraid of God's judgment as a motivation for right action.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: And even Jesus, like he'll say bo- both sides, both sides of the coin. Remember, he won't, he won't necessarily say, "Remember what I've done," but he'll talk about the future reward-
David: Right
Seth: ... but also future punishment, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as, like, often enough as a reason to follow him. So I think it's definitely a le- a legitimate way to motivate us-
David: Right. He's like-
Seth: ... to right action
David: ... yeah. You can think of some of the parables he told towards the end of Matthew, where he's like, "Be ready," 'cause, like, there's this wedding feast coming, and if you're ready, you get to enter in and have a good feast. That's a good motivation.
Seth: Right.
David: But if you're not ready, you're gonna be stuck outside with this weeping and gnashing of teeth, which is also a good motivation. And so, yeah. Anyway, I think that's kinda what's going on here is Moses is reminding them of their past, showing them that there is both blessing and curse, reward and punishment, and to be motivated accordingly to be faithful and to trust, uh, that God will do what he promised them to do. So they're to go in, they're to drive out all the inhabitants, and we get one interesting warning here that I, I just wanted to pause and read. So-
Seth: So after the travelogue, there's just, like a-
David: After the travelogue, a little-
Seth: ... there's this little-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... parenthetical or, like, uh, interlude between the next part.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, between, like... Well, it comes next in 35, 34, 35, and 36. It's basically just laws, like final laws. But in 33 at the very end, there's this final kinda thing the Lord says to his people.
David: Yeah, 51, "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, 'When you pass over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you and destroy all their figured stones and destroy all their metal images and demolish all their high places, and you'll take all-"
Seth: So these are just-
David: ... all these things you're supposed to do-
Seth: ... metaphors for idol, idols and-
David: Right
Seth: ... false temples
David: ... but then in fif- but then in 55 it says, "But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land before you, then those of them whom you let remain shall be as barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell. And I will do to you as I thought to do to them."
Seth: Have you ever had a barb in your eye?
David: I have not, thank God.
Seth: [laughs] I was like, man, how often do a b- I mean, like, I get, like, little pieces of, like, hair stuck in my eye.
David: Yeah, it's the worst.
Seth: You know? Like, and it's terrible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I'm just imagining... [laughs] Anyway, it was just a, it's such a vivid image, a barb-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in your eye, a thorn in your side.
David: Right.
Seth: Anyway.
David: And I've also never, I've never looked into whether there's theories out there if Paul is quoting this-
Seth: I have heard those theories.
David: Have you? Okay. I've not. Okay.
Seth: Well, essentially people... So 'cause some people say Paul's thorn in the flesh was a type of illness or a sickness or maybe even, like, depression or something like that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Some people point to this and say, actually, it might have been some sort of persecution.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like consistent persecution from one sect or one people or, like, a particular person who kept following him and, like- Nagging him-
David: Right
Seth: ... persecuting him, making his life difficult. So I've heard that before. And I mean-
David: Well, yeah, we're referring to it whenever Paul says, uh, "I've got this thorn in my flesh."
Seth: But I've asked the Lord-
David: Anyway
Seth: ... to let go and he-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he hasn't. And so-
David: Anyway
Seth: ... by context it could be-
David: Random, random thought
Seth: ... yeah. Random thought.
David: Okay. Anyway, so, uh, w- I think it's just an interesting warning here that ends up, uh, coming true, that Israel doesn't totally drive out the inhabitants of the land. We, y- you can look at that in Psalm 106:34, that it didn't come true. Uh, they did not thoroughly drive out everybody, and those that were left, uh, led Israel astray into constant idolatry. You'll read about that in, in the history books, um, of the Old Testament, about how-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... kings were led astray by different, uh, different leaders of other nations.
Seth: So right here then you have this kind of like foreboding. It's like r- so far it's been really positive and really exciting. Maybe this is the new Israel. Maybe they're going, really gonna ha- be in the new Eden. Maybe God's presence is gonna fall. And God's last word to them is, "Drive them out, but if not-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I will drive you out." Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... it's like, whoa, [laughs] everything's been going so well. Like it s- it seems, like, shocking and jarring and that, that, that it should, it should feel that way because God's people, if they disobey, will be exiled from the land. Um, and that's what happens, as, as you were just saying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So the, the people are exiled from the land. Um, and like this is an, an interesting... It's a really important theme of, of scripture, the idea of exile. It's like, w- why is this land so important and why would they be exiled from it? What's the big deal with coming into it? And I think it all goes back to how you set it up earlier, Seth, with like the idea of this is the new Eden. And that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if God allows evil to dwell in this place, Eden will never come.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so whether it is someone from the seed of the serpent who's dwelling in it, who must be driven out by the seed of Eve, or whether it's the seed of Eve herself who is causing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... evil in the land, he will drive it out. And we see that in Deuteronomy, he's gonna say that he's gonna even let the land just lay fallow. He'd rather it be empty because in emptiness, if there's no sin in it, it can heal. [laughs] And like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and so it's just, it gives us this, this, I guess, spiritual and almost ritualistic view of the land of Eden that, um, helps us-
Seth: And that's-
David: Like helps us-
Seth: It just-
David: ... see like the, the... It, it just, it reminds me of Leviticus, where it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... sinfulness can't dwell within the tabernacle. It needs to be pure.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like-
Seth: And-
David: ... it's almost like all of Eden is like-
Seth: Yeah, and remember-
David: ... the tabernacle
Seth: ... how they're supposed to drive, like how a, is a war supposed to be waged. They take the Ark of the Covenant and place it at the head of the battle.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And God's presence moves forward. And so I think it's helpful to think of this less a, at, of a, a physical battle, although it is that.
David: Right.
Seth: More of as a spiritual battle. Like we, they are trying to bring the kingdom of Heaven further, like further forward. And so I, I have a pretty strong category in my mind that in Heaven there's no bad thing. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the place where God lives, nothing bad can exist. And if that's true of my... Like I have a weird, like, modern, strange view of Heaven sometimes, but like I even now have this idea that Heaven is completely perfect with no bad thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I do know that if anything ba- nothing bad can go there, and if something bad does go there, it gets sent out.
David: Right.
Seth: So what Israel's doing, it's bringing Heaven further forward, and if it allows bad things to remain in the land, they are going to violate what the presence of God and the kingdom of God actually is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and God's kingdom will leave.
David: Right.
Seth: And they'll be kicked out for not enforcing the rules of God's kingdom.
David: Right. And so this does... I, I'm so glad you went to Heaven, 'cause that's where I was wanting to go, and it's like there's such a... This, this, this picture of conquest is supposed to give us a picture of the, um, the end of time, when Jesus will come and drive out evil from the world. And-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and like the, the, the new Heavens and new Earth will have no bad thing in them. And that's really good news. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how do we get the good news of there will be no more tears, no more pain, you know, all this stuff, like God's presence-
Seth: I heard a really good line about that phrase, no more tears.
David: Mm.
Seth: I was... 'Cause like, no more sad tears. Oh-
David: Right
Seth: ... that sounds great. But like I cry when I'm happy. Like tears are like a natural response and he said like, well, if the Lord, I think maybe what he's saying is, uh, the Lord is gonna give you a new way to relate to reality, so much so that tears are no longer needed-
David: Oh, wow
Seth: ... to like express your emotion. I was like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "Oh my gosh, that is beautiful." [laughs] It's like-
David: Cool
Seth: ... I was like, [laughs] I was like hold... Like you know how like you can only see certain wavelengths of light?
David: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like what, like one day we'll be able to feel in different wavelengths. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so much so that we... Like the way that our bodies respond to emotion now will feel totally different and totally alien.
David: Mm-hmm. That's cool.
Seth: Anyway, I, I love that image of like God's-
David: Right
Seth: ... gonna remake my whole self. My emotional-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... self, my physical self.
David: Right.
Seth: The world itself. [laughs]
David: And for that, and for that to take place, like there needs to be a driving out of evil.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because if it, if it wasn't, then Heaven would be full of barbs and thorns, [laughs] you know? And like that's not-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what Heaven's supposed to be like. So we're, what we get in this small version of the new Eden will come fully when Jesus returns, uh, when he like drives out all evil and brings us... And, and like we're, the fact that we're not driven out is not because, as Christians, is not because we're not evil or we, you know, like we're, because we're perfect.
Seth: Right.
David: It's because by putting our faith in Jesus, just as they were putting their faith in God to bring them into the Promised Land, we're putting our faith in Jesus to bring us into the final Promised Land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's that faith in Jesus that connects us to him in such a way that he will remake us-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into perfect beings.
Seth: And our responsibility is the same as the people of Israel here.
David: Mm.
Seth: The people of Israel were supposed to move forward, bring God's kingdom forward, and to expel evil from the land. We too as Christians have the same responsibility. We are supposed to bring God's kingdom into the world, not just in ourself by banishing sin, evil thoughts, evil intentions-
David: Mm
Seth: ... um, you know, sin, like and sinful actions. But also bring God's reign and God's peace and banish evil where we see it in our spheres of influence. Like if we're not doing that as Christians now, we're actually not obeying the command ... of Numbers 33 to, like, bring God's kingdom forward. Event- at the end of the day, we know that it is, as much as it is a physical thing, it is a spiritual reality-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but it's also a physical reality. [laughs] So like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this holy war is both spiritual and physical. It's being fought on two planes, and s- so too us now, it's both spiritual and physical and e- eventually, God is gonna be the one who brings His kingdom perfect, fully, and finally. [upbeat music] Okay, so we're in the last section of the book of Numbers, and essentially, it's kind of the final niggly bits, the final-
David: My favorite word
Seth: ... [laughs] the final loose ends that need to be talked through before they enter the land. So what are the official borders of the new Eden in the land of Canaan? Who are the chieftains in the new Eden? There is an issue of justice in the land, so like, a final, like, provision for a court system, and then finally, about in- laws of inheritance and who gets the land. So these are, like, four kind of like loose ends within scripture that we don't quite have an answer for yet that are getting an answer now.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So verse 34... Oh yeah, what were you gonna say?
David: I, I was gonna say, I think one major note to make about all four of these topics is that they are very presumptive that they will take the land. Like, they're already dividing it up. They're already-
Seth: Right
David: ... assigning who's going to live where. They're already saying, "Who's over that land?" And, "Well, when I have that land and I don't get married, how do I know I'll have land in the land that we don't have yet?"
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like, if there are chickens to be counted before they're hatched, they are being counted now. [laughs]
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: And, and which is the opposite of what happened in Numbers 13. Like, they, they-
Seth: That's right. That's right
David: ... they looked into their future and they just saw death and destruction and, you know, grapes that were-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not hanging off of big sticks. We... [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Normal-sized grapes.
David: Normal-sized grapes.
Seth: A lot of them. Like, a lot of grapes, not basketballs. [laughs]
David: Anyway, and here it's like they're, they're like, "We will definitely enter the land. In fact, I know that so much that we are s- dividing it up now." And it's like, I do that, you know, like w- I feel like we're-
Seth: By the way
David: ... doing that right now at Spoken Gospel. We're like, we're looking at, uh, a new office space and, and we're, we're already... Like, we haven't even-
Seth: Right
David: ... gotten a lease written yet, but we're already-
Seth: And already deciding who gets to live where.
David: Oh, yeah. And we're like-
Seth: This is my office.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm gonna put a bookshelf over here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's like, "What are we gonna put on that wall?" And like, "Oh, I want it colored like this," and we're already doing that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because we're just so sure we're gonna get it.
Seth: Right, and just like Israel, there's a sense like you got... Like, Israel, God has been faithful to them in the past over and over and over again, and based on God's past grace to them, they can look forward and say, "God will continue to be gracious and-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... merciful to us as well." And they're actually making plans based on God's future grace, which He hasn't done yet, but that's still good. Like, God's fut- we talked about, like, negative things, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... consequences being a motivation for good behavior. Future blessings from God are also a reason to motivate-
David: Yep, yeah
Seth: ... good behavior as well.
David: Uh, yeah, John Piper wrote a whole long book on that called Future Grace.
Seth: Well, there you go.
David: And it was-
Seth: So-
David: ... really good
Seth: ... I haven't read that one.
David: Yep.
Seth: Anyway.
David: So anyway, uh, so the boundaries of the, of the Promised Land are the first thing that are talked about, right?
Seth: Yes, and I don't have a lot to say about it except they're gonna live within these borders.
David: [laughs] Um, I guess, like, I, I mean, this is definitely supposed to remind us of Eden, right? He's doubling down-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... on that, that picture. So we're not just grabbing that out of nowhere. Like, there's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... there's, like, echoes of the Eden narrative here, that this is new creation, they're talking about the borders of the land, all this stuff. Um, and then, uh, there's also, like, with the borders, it's talking about... It, it's a, it's a, it's a justice issue too, because it's like, you know, we, we wanna live within th- within what God has given us, not taking what isn't ours, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause we see that through the travelogue.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, "Oh, can we just go through Edom?" Well, no, you can't, because even though they're not the final promised people of God, I did make promises to them because of Esau, and so you can't go there. So there's like, there's like, God is carving out a niche for Israel, but it doesn't mean He doesn't care about every other nation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... protecting other nations from Israel by marking their boundaries and saying, "This is what I've given you," you know, no more, no less, that kind of thing. So it's, it, that's an interesting thing to think about.
Seth: Yeah. And then that land will be parceled up among the nine and a half tribes that are left in the nation of Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it lists for you the ch- tribal leaders, the chieftains, the leaders, the elders of each individual land, and then it's chosen by lot. Uh, which I've always, I always think of just like as a pair of dice, and I'm like, how do you make a decision about who gets which piece of land based on a pair of dice? And I always just skip over it [laughs] because I can't figure it out. Like, they, so apparently, like, they would, um, all the people would come, and then the tribe would, would get their land based on the ummon and thummin inside-
David: The u- ummon and the Thurman
Seth: The Thurman. [laughs] Is it that, that, that, s-
David: I don't know about the Thurman
Seth: ... the machine that makes the noise in, uh, Star Wars? That... [hums]
David: I have no clue.
Seth: It's like, it's... [laughs]
David: What are you talking about?
Seth: There's a musical instrument that's, like, based on vibrations.
David: Oh, I know what you're talking about now.
Seth: It's like as you press your hands closer to it, it makes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... different sounds.
David: I don't think that's, I don't think that's this.
Seth: I, no, it's not? Oh, okay. Never mind. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Oh, my goodness. Uh-
David: So-
Seth: ... but yeah, like, the lots, I mean, I, I think it's closer to, like, names out of a hat.
David: Got it. So who gets this land, and who gets this land?
Seth: Uh-huh. Yep.
David: And it's based on also not just lots, but the size of the tribe.
Seth: Right. Mm-hmm.
David: So if your, your tribe's a little bit larger, uh, you get a larger tract of land. If your s- tribe's a little bit smaller, you get a smaller tract of land, and that's kind of-
Seth: Yep
David: ... the-
Seth: Which is interesting to think about with lots, you know? Like, the Bible talks about lots quite often, you know, where it's like y- you know, man, like, castes lots, but the Lord determines how they fall, you know? [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: And you see that, like, in the selection of the 12th, uh, apostle after Judas kills himself-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... at the beginning of Acts.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's like, oh, it just so happened to be. No, it didn't. Like, God planned it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so it's like-
David: I was thinking about that, like ch- we th- we would call this chance.
Seth: Chance, right.
David: When you throw a, roll a die, that's, that's chance deciding.
Seth: Nope.
David: I was like, what kind of-
Seth: I was like, what kind of faith would it take for me to make my next major life decision based on a dice roll?
David: I think you would need to have-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... clear direction from God that that's what he, how he wanted you to make that decision. Uh, but-
Seth: That's fair. I was like, I've never thought about maybe doing that. Maybe I should-
David: Yeah, this is n- this is des- this is, this is the different... This is how to read narrative.
Seth: [laughs]
David: This is descriptive, not prescriptive, okay? And so we should not choose our church elders by lot, and neither-
Seth: Mm
David: ... should we anyway. Neither should you choose... Like, you don't just put what home you're gonna live in. Like, you're house shopping-
Seth: So if I-
David: You put them all in a hat and draw one
Seth: ... I try to, like, trick God and be like, "Okay, God, should I leave my family and go on a trip without telling them?" And just keep rolling the dice until I get, like, a one, which would be, you should go on the trip.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's not the way to play that game.
David: That's not the way to play this game.
Seth: [laughs] Okay.
David: But it is a cool picture of God's sovereignty, because it's like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you're gonna choose it by lot, but then also, it, they need to, each, each lot needs to fit the size of your tribe in it. And so, like, how did the lots and the sizes match up? God's sovereignty.
Seth: Oh.
David: It's cool. It's cool to think about.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anyway, uh, okay. Uh, so before we move on, I- I just wanna point out something that I think is cool here. Um, so there's this picture, uh, that we should be getting of, um, how Israel is moving into the land. So all throughout the Torah so far, it has been Israel's journey back into the land of Eden, into the land of Israel, if you wanna go ahead and call it that. Um, and they're gonna go in there, and there's borders around it, and the whole idea is getting inside those borders and staying in there. Uh, but then when we get to Acts, uh, we get a new travel log. We get a new conquest, and it's not from the ends of the earth into Judea and Samaria, and then finally into Israel. It's from Israel, Jerusalem-
Seth: Mm
David: ... outside of Judea, Samaria, and then to the ends of the earth.
Seth: Got it.
David: And so the entire narrative geographical motion of the Torah is reversed in Acts 1.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: So it's like instead of everyone trying to get into Israel, Israel's trying to get out to everyone.
Seth: That's, uh, that's cool.
David: And so, and, and so, and the borders become irrelevant because God's kingdom is now borderless.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it, it, and, like, there's no, there's no line we can't cross with the good news of Jesus to take it out into the world. There's no geo- geopolitical separation. There's no race separation, economical class separation. There are no borders in the kingdom of God. I just love that picture.
Seth: Yeah. And I love, too, just thinking about some of the promises that Jesus makes about how, like, we will rule in heaven. Like, "Don't you know that you'll rule angels?" I'm like, "What on earth does that mean?"
David: Right. No, no, I didn't know that.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] We're like, "I did not know that at all. Like, what do you mean by that?" But, like, it's funny, like, right after the conquest narrative, you have this list of tribal leaders-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... and then you have the reverse conquest narrative in that we become kings and priests-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and rulers of angels.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's almost as if we become new chieftains-
David: Right
Seth: ... new tribal leaders of different outposts of God's kingdom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And those are what our elders are in the local church, right? [laughs]
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: Is that, is that the parallel I should be drawing on?
David: Definitely.
Seth: How I should be thinking about it?
David: Yep. Yep.
Seth: Like we are all outposts of God's kingdom, all leaders, but we also have particular leaders of particular tribes called the elders of our churches.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what we're seeing here.
David: Super cool.
Seth: Cool.
David: Love that. All right, so, uh, chapter 35, then we start talking about the cities for the Levites.
Seth: So the Levites were not gonna own any land in particular, but they were gonna own cities within the land. So they're gonna take over the land of Canaan. It has hundreds of cities, and the Levites are gonna be given 48 of those cities.
David: Right.
Seth: And, and the idea is that these Levites, because Israel's now separated from the temple by some great distance, these Levites act as God's representatives throughout the land.
David: Right.
Seth: So they have little outposts and pockets where the Levites can teach on the Torah, remind people of God's law, represent them and their sacrifices, bring those sacrifices back to Jerusalem, and they live in these 48 cities scattered throughout the land of Canaan.
David: Right. Yeah, 'cause you have the 12 tribes, and then if there's a big tribe, they give s- they're supposed to give several of these 48 cities to the Levites.
Seth: Right.
David: And, and, and then if you have a small tribe, they're supposed to give a few, you know, of their cities to the Levites, and that is, one, to, you know, evenly parcel up the land, but two, if you've got a lot of tribes living in a particular, like, geographical region, you're gonna need-
Seth: You wanna be close to a Levite
David: ... priests.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, exactly. So you need more of them to facilitate, um, all of that, all that area. And so, um, but there's a cool distinctive about the cities of the Levites that, that are different from the other cities. The cities of the Levites, the Levites live inside the city, but there are specific dimensions given about what goes around the city. Uh, it's like you shall measure outside the city on the east side 2,000 cu- or 2,000 cubits and all the way around 2,000 cubits of land-
Seth: Right
David: ... is supposed to be measured. And-
Seth: About a kilometer square.
David: Oh, okay. That's helpful.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, and all of that land is pasture land for the cities, and, um, that is-
Seth: All-
David: ... where all the sacrificial animals would graze-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and be grown. And, and so you have this picture of these, this cubit land surrounding the Levites that have just sacrificial animals all around. So if you kinda... It's supposed to be kind of this mini picture of the tabernacle, uh-
Seth: Mm
David: ... located in all the different regions of Israel because-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... in the wilderness journey, uh, that we've been reading about, Israel, if you remember at the beginning of Numbers, was surrou- surrounded the tabernacle on the north, south, east, and west.
Seth: Right, right, right, right, right, right.
David: But now Israel, or now the Levites representing the tabernacle are surrounded by the sacrifices of the people in the north, south, east, and west.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Yeah. And so it's just to be a picture of the fact-
Seth: Do you think-
David: ... that just because you're far from the tabernacle doesn't mean the tabernacle's far from you. God is still among-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you, and you must conduct yourselves as holy.
Seth: I'd have to do some research on this, but I wonder if, like, Bethlehem was one of those, like- Priestly cities
David: Mm
Seth: And if that's the case, that means, like, Jesus born not in the town of Bethlehem, but out in the field of Bethlehem, would've been born among all the sacrificial animals.
David: Oh, gosh.
Seth: I know.
David: That would be amazing.
Seth: I know.
David: We need to look that up.
Seth: [laughs] I don't know if that's true. Let's-
David: We should look it up
Seth: ... we promise to look that up for you. Spoke the Gospel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... listen. [laughs]
David: And we'll, we'll either put it in a future episode or in the description notes. We'll look it up. So anyway-
Seth: Uh
David: ... that's pretty cool
Seth: So that's what's happening. But within-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... those 48 cities, there's six cities, uh, that are kinda set apart, three on the south of the Jordan and three in the north of the Jordan, like some of the Transjordan area where Gad settles and then-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... another three where the rest of the tribes settle, and what these three cities are for, they're called cities of refuge.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they're supposed to be places where people who are awaiting the outcome of a manslaughter case can-
David: Mm
Seth: ... run to and await trial without being executed by [laughs] an avenger of blood [laughs] is the, is the... So really-
David: An avenger of blood.
Seth: So the, the scenario is this. If you accidentally kill somebody, you're swinging your ax, flies off, hits somebody in the head. If you push a rock off a cliff and accidentally slaughter- kill somebody b- below you, you've killed somebody in God's land, and throughout the Leviticus, we're told life for life, tooth for tooth, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... blood for blood. So what happens when it's accidental? If it's like, if it's, if it's murder, we know that's wrong, but what happens if it's accidental? So what would normally happen is a close kinsman, like maybe the brother of the person that you just killed, would come and kill you, a life for a life, and that's the way it worked. Like that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... justice being done. Uh, and that s- sounds crazy [laughs] to me. Uh, but I w- I went to Kenya one time, uh, and as we were going to, like, this village that we were going to, we went a different way, and we're like, "Why are we going a different way?" And they told us that it's because, well, um, somebody had been killed on our other path. They had stolen a cow, and so they'd been stuffed into this ring of tires and then burned to death-
David: Oh
Seth: ... because, because that's the way it worked. Like-
David: Oh
Seth: ... that's the way justice was done in the, in the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... villages. And so it helped me, that picture helped me here because what it did for me, and what he said was, "What's, what's really sad about this is that sometimes they catch the right guy, but oftentimes-
David: Mm
Seth: ... innocent people die." And so what I loved hearing that story, and this is a horrible story, but after hearing that story and then reading this one, this is God's plan for that never to happen. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if there's an accidental death, mob justice doesn't rule. Like, justice does.
David: Right.
Seth: And so the person who accidentally killed somebody can run to the city of refuge and await trial and is not, um [tsk]... will not be killed if he's innocent.
David: Right.
Seth: So that's kind of what's happening [laughs] here.
David: That's really helpful. That's really helpful. I, I thought of a less grim example than-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the Kenya one. I thought o- of Aladdin being killed-
Seth: Aladdin. [laughs]
David: ... of like, of like, he, like, when he's, like, saving Jasmine and she's, like, trying to give, like, a, an apple or something to a kid, and then they're gonna chop off her arm for stealing. It's like that's definitely not eye for an eye.
Seth: That, yeah.
David: That's, uh, that's a little over- overkill.
Seth: It's a little overkill, [laughs] yeah.
David: Pardon the pun. But, uh, anyway, uh, and, and but then something else also happens with, um, with, like how... So do they have to live in this city forever? Like, once the-
Seth: So-
David: ... like once they've accidentally-
Seth: ... what's fascinating-
David: ... killed somebody?
Seth: ... is that a life for a life still stands even when, um, the person is innocent.
David: Right.
Seth: So, um, either they have to live in the city until, uh, they have to live in the city for the rest of their life, essentially. If they've killed somebody, they have to live in that city for the rest of their life or until the high priest dies, and then once his life is substituted for his life, he's allowed to go free. Or-
David: Right
Seth: ... if he's guilty, his life is taken by the person that, the close kinsman-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who just said they'd kill him.
David: If he just goes wandering outside the city of refuge, even if he's innocent, the, the avenger of blood is allowed to take revenge on him because he left his city of refuge.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so the principle at work here is that death cannot enter into the land of life.
David: Right.
Seth: If this new Eden is the land of life, like th- life with God, death should have no place in it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And if you kill somebody, your life is forfeit-
David: Right
Seth: ... and death is canceled out, in a sense.
David: Yep.
Seth: But even if you kill somebody accidentally, death still reigns in the land.
David: That's right.
Seth: So how do you cancel out death when there's not necessarily any wrongdoing ex- like, there's not any, like, ill intent? Well, your life still has to be replaced by the high priest. Like the high-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... priest still has to atone, cover up, make one, make good the debt of death that was-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... owed to the land.
David: I mean, think about this picture. Like, you have this whole nation of people and six cities of refuge, right? So there's just six places that people can go whenever they accidentally kill someone. And let's say a high priest has lived for 40 years, right? So just 40 years' worth of people who have fled to these cities are living in them. So let's just say there's hundreds and hundreds of people in each city of refuge. So, you know, you've got, like, 1,000 people spread out, and then the high priest dies, and then all of these people get to return home to their families scot-free.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, they're free to go. They're-
Seth: Right
David: ... been, they've been redeemed. It's like-
Seth: Justice has been paid. Yeah.
David: Justice has been paid through the life of one person-
Seth: Right
David: ... dying, the death of the high priest. Like-
Seth: They could have exhausted justice themselves by dying-
David: Yep
Seth: ... or they could wait for the high priest to pay it for them.
David: Yep.
Seth: So there's not really much clearer picture-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... of, of Jesus than this.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If we've committed wrong, we have two choices.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We can either pay the penalty of our offense to God by dying ourselves, or we wait for the death of our high priest, Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And when he dies- We get to continue living in his kingdom.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, provided that-
David: And what a cool... Yeah
Seth: ... provided that we are in his city of refuge-
David: It, yes, right
Seth: ... provided that we, like, we go into his city, trust his borders, trust his parameters, don't break his law by going outside of his kingdom, we live once he dies.
David: Yeah. And, like, what a cool picture it is that the cities of refuge are a subset of the cities of the Levites. So around the cities of refuge would be these cubits of pastureland of sacrificial animals, and so, like, they're coming, like, they would have to come-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... through all these sacrificial animals and know, like, "Okay, life for life." Like-
Seth: Oh
David: ... "I'm gonna need sacrifice if I'm ever gonna get out of here."
Seth: Even as they were walking-
David: But then they would also-
Seth: ... into it, like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... they would, they would... Did you know that it used to be that churches would have the cemeteries in front of the doors?
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Because as you walk in through th- through death, you come up to the cross into new life.
David: So cool.
Seth: And as you leave the church, you walk back into death, dying to yourself out into the world. I was like, "That is beautiful." And it's-
David: It's, it's a good liturgy [laughs]
Seth: It's a good liturgy, and it's actually t- it's taken from passages like this.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right. And so, um, and then also imagine them if they were like, "You know what? Forget this. I wanna go see my family again. I'm gonna get out of the city of refuge," they would have to pass through death, you know, these sacrificial animals, and be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna be like these, these sheep if I leave."
Seth: Mm.
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah, there you go.
David: "My life will be forfeit just as theirs is." Uh, but it's also a beautiful picture of whenever they aren't entering or leaving, but they're just dwelling inside, that they are surrounded by propitiation. They're surrounded by sacrifice. They have a holy buffer of protection around them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because there is payment being made around them. And, like, that's who we h- that's what we have in Christ. We live inside the city of refuge. We are surrounded-
Seth: Mm
David: ... by, uh, cubits and cubits, miles and miles, if you will, like, let me exacerbate it, of sacrifice.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: It, it helps me to, like, think about those phrase where it's like, "We are in Christ."
David: Yes.
Seth: Like-
David: What a picture
Seth: ... like, that's always a strange... Like, how am I inside of another person? Like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... you know? Like, this is actually a really concrete, like, we are in Christ's city of refuge.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And provided we stay within his walls, his death is our freedom. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so chapter 36 is the last chapter of Numbers. It's a pretty short chapter, only 13 verses, and it's-
Seth: Final niggly bit
David: ... final n- [laughs] You gotta stop niggly bit. [laughs]
Seth: Gets me every time.
David: Um, and it is these daughters of Zelophehad, which we've met before, right?
Seth: Yeah, we have.
David: Like-
Seth: Uh, 23? Is that where we just-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... saw them last time?
David: Yeah, earlier, uh, with the new generation stuff. And, uh, what is the deal with them? What, what, what are they bringing up?
Seth: So what they're bringing up is the fact that they have been allowed to inherit land, um, because their father had only daughters.
David: Right.
Seth: We talked about that already in a previous episode. But now the issue is, well, what happens if they marry somebody outside the tribe?
David: Oh.
Seth: If they marry somebody outside their tribe, the husband of that tribe gains their land.
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: So-
David: So, so all these evil, even parcels that they've divvied up between the tribes would slowly get eroded-
Seth: Right
David: ... because people could intermarry between tribes, and eventually they could, like, one tribe could amass more land than the others simply by-
Seth: That's it
David: ... like, smart marriage.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Smart marriage.
Seth: And so what this chapter does say, "No, that's not what gonna, what needs to happen." If you are... So there's this, uh, parameter. If you are a woman who owns land, uh, within a particular tribe, you need to marry within that tribe in order to keep your, in, in order to pr- protect the boundaries and the land allotments that God gave. My assumption is if they would want to marry outside the tribe, they still could, but they'd have to forfeit their right to the land.
David: Hmm.
Seth: But I'm not, I'm not sure about that.
David: They, maybe they would have to next of kin or something like that.
Seth: That would make sense to me, but that's not mentioned.
David: Right.
Seth: That's not mentioned here.
David: As long as the land stays in the tribe, that's the chief concern because-
Seth: Right
David: ... God wants there to be equity among his people, that the tribes have an, an, uh, not necessarily an even amount of land, but an equitable amount of land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay, that's cool. I mean, I, I definitely know where I, like, how I wanna see Jesus in this text, but is there anything else you wanna bring out of it before we go there?
Seth: I mean, I think it's worth noting that in God's kingdom, there is an equity that it's expected-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and there are protections and laws against, like, the unlawful or the conniving, uh, conniving ways human hearts, like, try to gain more power for themselves.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, built into this justice system is way, like, is preventative measures against people's worst inclinations to, to gain more power.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I just think that's interesting. I think that's, that tells us a little bit about God's character. I, I like that, that this is part of the new Eden, the laws of the new Eden.
David: Yeah. Uh, yeah, and it's true. You talked about, like, he, [laughs] he's creating provisions that make sure the evil of man's heart doesn't just get to reign. Uh, uh, I'm like, I'm like skimming back through this text and looking at this crazy hypothetical situation that the daughters of Zelophehad have contrived where it's like, okay, but if, like, we marry someone from another tribe, and then their inheritance is gonna be taken, and then, uh, because there's this loophole in the Year of Jubilee that they'll then be able to acquire the land. And it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they're, they're, they're piecing together this crazy legal document-
Seth: Right
David: ... that would have to take place in order for this exchange to happen, and it did not take long for, like, the wickedness of man's heart to figure out a loophole in-
Seth: Well, I don't think you have to read any ill intent into the daughters of Zelophehad.
David: No, not the d- not the daughters, but I think they just know that, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... people try this type of thing.
Seth: Now that these laws have been instituted, wait a second, there's a loophole here between the Year of Jub-
David: Yeah, they just try to protect themselves
Seth: ... the Year of L- Jubilee only applies to leased land, but not inherited land, so if a new f- tribe gains my land, that means they keep the land, so what's happened to that situation? Yeah, yeah.
David: Right. Yeah. So yeah, it is amazing, and then that God is so concerned about creating an equitable society. I just think that's something that is often missed, um-
Seth: So the new heaven... What did I tell us about the new heaven and the new earth? Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you will have what you need Period. Like, it can't be taken from you.
David: Wow.
Seth: Nobody's gonna, like, steal it out of your hand. Nobody can provide some, like, you know, hire smart enough lawyers to, to, to, to get it from you. Like, you will have what you need always.
David: Yeah. I love that. And I also think we should see here clearly that there is a time whenever we, uh, w- God has allowed a time for us to marry into some land. Like when we, as the bride of Christ, are married to Jesus, we inherit the whole Earth, and we inherit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what is his, and everything is his. And he, he calls us co-heirs with Christ. And so, like, um, this is, this, th- like, this is how he protects us and cares for us as his wife. Like, I just think it's a cool way to, to think about, like, how they were concerned that land would be taken from them in marriage, and Jesus is concerned about giving his land to us whenever he marries us. Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah
David: ... I just think that's-
Seth: That's cool
David: ... um, that, that's how we inter- that's how we inherit our eternal, uh, dwelling is by, um, marriage. We marry into it. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Just kinda neat. Um, okay. Man, that's Numbers.
Seth: That's the book of Numbers.
David: There it is.
Seth: Well done. If you stuck with us this long-
David: So proud of you
Seth: ... you're braver than most. [laughs] Um, this has been great. I've loved the book of Numbers.
David: It has been great. Uh, I'll give a little plug here. Uh, we, uh, have launched a new podcast, um, that's very different. Spoken Gospel has a- another podcast out now that's called-
Seth: We do?
David: We do. It's called Jesus in All of the Bible, and it is short, three to four minutes short.
Seth: Ooh.
David: So very different than [laughs] what Seth and I do here on a weekly basis. Three to four minutes on, um, a couple chapters of text, so kind of like the same parameters that me and, me and Seth walk through. Um, you know, a couple chapters at a time, but we, I do it in about three to four minutes. And, uh-
Seth: That's exciting
David: ... so, uh, I wrote little devos for all the Torah. Seth has been writing some for, um, the Gospels and Proverbs and Daniel and, uh-
Seth: So all those written things I've been doing are gonna be now podcasts as well.
David: That's right. Yeah, audio-
Seth: Wow
David: ... podcasts. And so those release every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, uh, first thing in the morning, and so they're a great way to just, like, quickly list- I listened to, uh, the one on, uh, the rainbow, the covenant with, with Noah and the rainbow. I listened to that this morning, and, uh, I had it on double speed, and it was over in a minute and a half. Like-
Seth: [laughs]
David: But I, it was incredible. It was super cool. Anyway.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So I was like, I really, I'm, I'm pumped about it. If you want to watch video versions of them, those are on YouTube now as well, so-
Seth: Amazing
David: ... you can watch people teaching through these, uh, these different books as well. Uh, there's reading plans on YouVersion to walk you through these if you want to go to the Bible app and, uh, get a, get a reading plan. Uh, keep engaging with scripture. The more you do, the more you'll see. And, uh, you, you can never tire. You should never tire of rehearsing the scriptures over yourself, uh, throughout all of scripture, uh, because as we've seen, this is, that's the fuel for our travelogue. Uh, and so anyway, this has been, this has been Numbers. Uh, we'll probably take a, a, a break, not in, not in publishing episodes, but in what we're talking about. I think, um, I'm gonna put up some episodes that me and another one of our devotional writers named Taylor Walling-
Seth: Yep
David: ... we had a series of conversations about three-
Seth: Great man
David: ... conversations where, um, I talked to him about how gospel-centered, uh, reading of scripture has changed his life. He talked to me about my journey and why, why I started Spoken Gospel, and then we kind of did some, like, uh, testing and question asking about good and bad Jesus turns in the Old Testament, so that was a lot of fun.
Seth: So fun.
David: So we'll do those next, and Seth and I will dive into Deuteronomy. So we hope to see-
Seth: Sounds great
David: ... you guys, uh, in Deuteronomy, and until then, we hope you have a great week and a great time, and we'll see you next week.
Seth: Bye.
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
