Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome.
Seth: Welcome.
David: We have a very special episode for you today.
Seth: Numero 50.
David: N-
Seth: Cinquecento.
David: There you go. I was thinking [laughs] numero 50.
Seth: Cinquecento is not right.
David: Is not-
Seth: Cinquecento.
David: Si- cinquecento? Is that right?
Seth: I don't know.
David: You don't know?
Seth: I don't know.
David: Should we look it up? Is it that important? It's probably pretty important.
Seth: It's probably really important-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we know this in Spanish-
David: How-
Seth: ... because that's the first language our podcast is being translated in.
David: Oh, it is?
Seth: No.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: I was just trying to make an announcement. [laughs]
David: How do you say 50 in Spanish? Here it is.
Seth: Cinquecento?
David: Here-
Seth: Cinquecento. I was right.
David: Cincuenta.
Seth: Cincuenta.
David: Cincuenta. Cincuenta.
Seth: I had, I had a lot of the right letters.
David: Yep. And that's not the only reason why this is an important episode. This is also an important episode because Seth is moving to Kansas City.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so this is our last podcast to do in studio together.
Seth: I know. At least until I come and visit.
David: Well, I mean, we'll do visits, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But-
Seth: But it'll all be across the internet.
David: Yeah, so he's got his pod- his podcast mic set up over here on the floor. I'm pointing it to it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you're gonna take it with you to Kansas City-
Seth: I know
David: ... so we can record.
Seth: And our, and our friendship will never die.
David: No, it will never die.
Seth: Because-
David: And so-
Seth: ... we'll always be talking to each other.
David: That's right.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So what are you doing in Kansas City?
Seth: So I'll be, uh, taking a job as the associate pastor of students and families at Redeemer Fellowship. I'm very excited-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about the job, um, a lot. It's just a, a big church, a lot of new opportunities, room for growth, room for all sorts of stuff. So it's just, it's a big deal.
David: That's awesome.
Seth: And I'm really excited.
David: I'm excited for you.
Seth: So hopefully we'll gain some Kansas City listeners.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: If you, if you're a Kansas City listener already and you want to get coffee with Seth when he comes to Kansas City-
Seth: Yeah, I would-
David: ... reach out to us.
Seth: Yes, that would be awesome.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I would love that.
David: Yeah, so okay. Well, it's also a special episode 'cause we get to look at Numbers 20 and 21, which is, any time you get to look at the Bible is really special. So, um-
Seth: Well done, Pastor Dave.
David: Thank you.
Seth: [laughs] It's like, classic-
David: This is my Jesus juke
Seth: ... a classic dad move.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like, every time you open the Bible up-
David: Every time you open the Bible, it's, it's a special moment.
Seth: [laughs] It's a special-
David: Son
Seth: ... son. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Ezra.
David: Ezra, my son.
Seth: So in chapter 20, we're just gonna do two chapters, chapter 20 and chapter 21, and it essentially tells us the story of Israel at Kadesh traveling to the border of Canaan. That's the entire story. It's just getting to the border of Canaan.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, so-
David: Yeah, it might be important to note, uh, n- to note that, like, it seems like in these two chapters, um, time just kinda flies. Like-
Seth: The entire 40 years in the wilderness-
David: Basically takes place here
Seth: ... takes place-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... between the verses 9 and 10.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Which I was listening to another podcast about this, it's called 40 Minutes: The Old Testament.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: It's great. You should listen to it. Uh, I was telling my listeners, not our listeners-
David: Not me. Oh, okay
Seth: ... but everybody, including you listening-
David: People eavesdropping in on our conversation
Seth: ... right, should listen-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to the 40 Minutes: The Old Testament podcast. And they were saying that's just authorially intentional because what happens when you're in the wilderness for 40 years?
David: Mm.
Seth: Nothing.
David: Nothing. [laughs]
Seth: So that's why it passes by in the-
David: That's funny
Seth: ... space of a verse.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, it's like there was nothing there. The Lord was, not silent, but, like, we have no recordings from that time period.
David: They were just wandering.
Seth: They were just wandering-
David: Ugh
Seth: ... in the desert. So that's why it just passes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Crazy.
David: And that would make for really bad literature. [laughs]
Seth: Really compelling-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... reading.
David: What would... Yeah, the, the action story, action movie of the Book of Numbers would turn into a horrible-
Seth: It's long
David: ... boring travel documentary.
Seth: So the big picture of what's happening-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is what I'm calling the slow implosion of a dying star.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I've been calling it this-
David: Since last week
Seth: ... since last week.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And so b- from all the way back several, um, chapters now in Numbers, we've had the concentric circles of holiness that have been-
David: Right
Seth: ... set up.
David: Yep. At the beginning of, of Numbers, God arranged the camp-
Seth: Right
David: ... in concentric circles of holiness, right?
Seth: Yes. And so you had the nations surrounding Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You had Israel itself.
David: Yep, arranged by tribe around north, south, east, and west.
Seth: Then you had the tribe of Levi-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... around the tabernacle. And then-
David: Performed, like, they were like a holy barrier
Seth: ... and then you had Moses and Aaron inside the Levites acting as the priest and the king-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of Israel.
David: At, like, the door of the tent.
Seth: And then you, in the very center, you had God's presence.
David: Right, in, like, the Holy of Holies.
Seth: And one by one, each one of those categories has failed to obey the Lord. So we had the rabble.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The nations failed to obey the Lord.
David: They grumbled in-
Seth: They grumble in-
David: ... in, like, number, in chapter 11, right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they distrust the Lord.
David: Right.
Seth: And a plague comes-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and Moses has to intercede for them. The next inner ring comes. The Israel grumbles and complains. Another plague comes. Moses has to intercede. The Levites at Korah's rebellion grumble and complain and disbelieve, and Moses has to intercede. Now-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the question is, will the leadership hold up?
David: Right.
Seth: Or will they disbelieve, too?
David: Yeah. Will this, uh, will this disobedience spread like the flu or a plague all the way into the center of the camp?
Seth: And you probably know the answer. The answer is no. That the... This is why I'm calling it the slow implosion of a dying star.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, every circle is just collapsing in on itself.
David: Right.
Seth: But what's been fascinating is that the mixed multitude, the nations, the Israelites, the Levites, have always had a mediator to go back on.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's always been somebody to go to God for them to pray and intercede, and this is the whole cycle of the book of Numbers.
David: Right, yes.
Seth: But what happens- When there's no one left to intercede.
David: Mm.
Seth: What happens when Moses and Aaron are dead? What happens when Moses and Aaron disobey?
David: Right.
Seth: Who intercedes for the interceders?
David: Right. Who watches the watchmen?
Seth: Who watches the watchmen? [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: And so that's kind of what I- y- the question that you'll end up asking here. And what's fascinating is the cycle that we've seen over and over and over again of grumbling, of laws, grumblings, punishment, uh-
David: Intercession
Seth: ... intercession, is broken here-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because there's no one left to intercede.
David: Right. We, we- [laughs]
Seth: After Moses and Aaron disobey.
David: Yep.
Seth: No-
David: There's no intercession. There's just the punishment comes, and there's nothing to be done about it. They just have to accept it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So we'll get there-
Seth: We'll get there
David: ... in the narrative, but-
Seth: But that's what's ha- that's what's happening.
David: Yep.
Seth: The slow implosion of a dying star.
David: That's it. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's it.
Seth: And then it supernovas.
David: Yeah. And there's also an irony here, too, is that all the way up until now, um, Israel and the rabble and everyone, and the, the priests, they've all been coming and attacking Moses' leadership and Aaron's leadership, and they've been saying, "You guys are unfit to lead. You should let other people lead." And God has again and again and again said, "No, these are the people I have chosen." And then, then in this ironic twist, we find out that, oh, Moses and Aaron aren't the perfect leaders.
Seth: Right.
David: They are humans, and they're sinful just like everyone else.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so you kind of have, like, all that's left is God in the middle of the, of the, of the camp, and no one can exist near him.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's kind of like what was said by the, those, the, the, the rebels, you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Everyone who comes near the tabernacle of the Lord perishes. Are we all to perish? Are we all to die?
Seth: Right.
David: Comes true even of-
Seth: Right
David: ... the leaders. So it is, it is like the slow implosion of a dying star.
Seth: Thanks.
David: I like that.
Seth: Thanks for, uh, borrowing my language.
David: Yeah, I just stole it.
Seth: So verse 20, 20 verse 1, Miriam dies.
David: Miriam's d- this is, this is Aaron and Moses' sister.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And-
Seth: She'd been acting kind of a, as a prophetess for Israel.
David: Yep, yep.
Seth: Uh, and was she one of the 70 elders for Israel?
David: I don't know.
Seth: Or is she just a prophetess?
David: Oh, I don't know.
Seth: Or is she both?
David: I don't know.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Somebody email us.
David: Somebody look that, look that up.
Seth: Um, essen-
David: But she was well-respected in the community.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: She, early on, right after they left Sinai, she thought she should lead alongside Aaron.
Seth: Right.
David: And Aaron and her approach Moses, and they're like, "Hey, why, why are you the only one to lead? We should get to lead." And then Miriam is the one that is struck with leprosy, not Aaron.
Seth: Right.
David: Aaron kinda gets a free pass there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's kinda like, whoa, like, was that-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, what, why did Miriam get punished and not, and not Aaron?
Seth: Maybe because Miriam's the one who, like, incited-
David: Seemingly voiced the complaint
Seth: ... like... Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: She's also at the Red Sea crossing. She was singing, poten- potentially leading the song.
David: Mm-hmm, as a prophetess might.
Seth: As a prophetess, yeah.
David: Mm-hmm, yep.
Seth: Um, and so the point here is that now the question is, will the center hold?
David: Right.
Seth: Will the leaders of Israel fail as the rest of the people have? And w- we don't really get any... We know that Miriam's already failed.
David: Right.
Seth: But I think what Miriam's death does is foreshadow the fact-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that death is coming for the leaders.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like-
David: It's like, if there's three people at the center, the first, the first one just died. Third in command just died. It's making its way up the chain.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so then we get into kind of one of the big stories-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of the Old Testament.
David: One of the, one of the big stories, and one of the most m- like, I, I wanna say misunderstood, not in the sense that I understand it, but in the sense that it is difficult to grapple with-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and to understand.
Seth: So this is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the w- story of the waters of Meribah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's no water for the congregation, and they assemble themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they grumble that there's no water.
David: Right, which is a legitimate complaint.
Seth: It is.
David: People need water to live.
Seth: Yeah, but isn't it interesting that it's the exact same, almost the exact same complaint as all the way at be- at the beginning of the wilderness?
David: Oh, that they're still grumbling.
Seth: They're still grumbling.
David: Yeah, I don't think-
Seth: And it's like the same complaint
David: ... I don't think Israel's off the hook here.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah. But we don't hear God, um, like condemning them as, as he normally does.
Seth: That is interesting.
David: That's, yes.
Seth: Isn't, like, this is the one place where grumbling is not met with-
David: Right
Seth: ... uh, actually it's more like the Book of Exodus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where they're complaining, and then-
David: It's a, it's a mirror of that story in the Book of Exodus
Seth: ... and then God gives them what they need.
David: Mm-hmm, what they need. Mm-hmm, which is just to show God's, God's grace and mercy. Um, He, he's, he's, he's sustained these people for all this time, you know. And, like, when people need water, sure, maybe the older or the younger generation, we don't know who's grumbling here. But we do know that everyone needs water, and if he's-
Seth: Right
David: ... going to bring the younger generation into the Promised Land, he doesn't want them to die, so he's going to provide them with water.
Seth: Right.
David: And so really, the issue here, as we've worked our way into, like, the center of Israel's camp from the concentric circles outside, inside, what we see here is this is not necessarily a story about Israel and their sin and their grumbling.
Seth: Although-
David: This is a story about Moses
Seth: ... maybe if this was placed somewhere else, maybe it could be.
David: It could be, but we know by, by the literary structure-
Seth: Right
David: ... and then even beyond that, what does the text focus on after this?
Seth: Moses.
David: It, yeah, never condemns Israel for this.
Seth: It's all about Moses.
David: It's all about Moses and Aaron. And so we really don't have to figure out whether, what their intent was here, like if it was-
Seth: Right, we don't need-
David: ... bad or not.
Seth: They're grumbling, but, like, that's not the point.
David: No, it just-
Seth: The point is-
David: ... started this-
Seth: ... that's the context-
David: It's the context, yeah
Seth: ... for which Moses-
David: It, yeah, it's teed up this narrative
Seth: ... Moses is gonna be tested-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in his leadership.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so, but God tells Moses to, uh, tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water, and it will bear fruit. God also tells him-
David: Bear fruit?
Seth: Oh, not bear fruit.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh-
David: It will bring forth water
Seth: ... it bring, bring forth water.
David: You just threw out a Ch- a Christian colloquialism.
Seth: I was thinking about the staff.
David: Oh, the-
Seth: Bearing, bearing almonds
David: ... the almonds
Seth: And so he's supposed to go in the temple and grab a, a s- a staff as well.
David: Yeah, it could be his staff that he's been using the whole time, or it could've been the budding staff of Aaron.
Seth: Yes.
David: We don't know.
Seth: And then Moses and Aaron gra- gather all the people together.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And now what's fascinating is Moses is far angrier than God ever was.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, he starts yelling at the people, saying, "You rebels."
David: Right.
Seth: "Or am I gonna bring water out of this rock for you?"
David: Yep.
Seth: And then he takes his staff, and he slams the rock twice, and then water comes out of the rock. But the Lord passes a judgment on the way that Moses behaved.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And this is the only explanation. There's a lo- okay, so we're gonna pause right here.
David: Okay.
Seth: This is wrong, what Moses did.
David: Yep.
Seth: But nobody really knows why.
David: Right.
Seth: It could be because God told him-
David: Yep
Seth: To speak to the rock, and he didn't do it
David: And he struck it. Yep.
Seth: Some people think that it's because, uh, maybe because he said we-
David: Yep
Seth: ... struck the rock.
David: Are we to bring water from this? Saying that, like, you want... Like, we, we're able to-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, like, it's-
Seth: Assuming that they have God
David: ... it's me and Aaron that have the power. Yep.
Seth: But the point, but none of that is ever clarified, and that might be part of the point, like the Cain and Abel story.
David: Yes.
Seth: We're not supposed to know exactly how they disobeyed-
David: Right
Seth: ... except that they are. But besides that, God tells us why he's, uh, acted poorly, and he says this. "Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 'Because you did not believe in me-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people, therefore you shall not bring them into the assembly.'"
David: It's the same sin that-
Seth: Disbelief
David: ... disbelief.
Seth: Distrust.
David: It's the same sin. The, uh, the Israelites did not believe that God was powerful enough to bring them into the land of Canaan, and so they were punished. Uh, the Levites did not believe that God had ordained Moses and Aaron to be their leaders, and so they were punished. And now Moses is not believing something about God, uh, and, and, and he's punished for it. And so the point is not, well, what was Moses' sin? I really gotta figure-
Seth: Right
David: ... that out. The point is everyone is disbelieving in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the God of Israel.
Seth: If you wanna spend more time in here and meditate on it, you should be thinking.
David: You should.
Seth: Like, like the, we talked about in the story of Cain and Abel, the fact that it's ambiguous is intentional.
David: Yep.
Seth: Because if you are a person in leadership, or leading your family, or leading anybody as a disc- like, as a discip- cipling somebody else, you should be asking yourself critically, have I failed to uphold the Lord as holy?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And how might have, I have done that? Have I followed the Lord's commands correctly?
David: Right.
Seth: Do I assume I can change this person rather than not? You should be asking those questions, but that's not the point here. The point is, is Moses believing? And the answer is no.
David: No.
Seth: He's not. And what's fascinating, I read this, um, in my favorite man, S- Saleh Henry.
David: [laughs] My favorite man.
Seth: The Pentateuch Narrative.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he said, "What's fascinating is that Israel is not being condemned for breaking the law, but for disbelief."
David: Hmm.
Seth: And, like, throughout-
David: That's really interesting
Seth: ... and throughout the narrative, that's actually maintained, being true.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, over and over again, we'll have long sections of obedience, but whenever they break God's trust, like, it's always the sin of disbelief-
David: Wow
Seth: ... not necessarily breaking the law, which I thought was a fascinating little thing.
David: That's really fascinating.
Seth: Because, like, grumbling isn't breaking the law.
David: No.
Seth: It's distrusting the one-
David: Right
Seth: ... who made the law.
David: Yeah, when we think about the Torah, we think about law codes.
Seth: Right.
David: And we think about don't break the law codes.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, like, maybe the one instance we have is building the golden calf.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
David: Right? That's a direct-
Seth: Violation of the second commandment
David: ... violation of one of the, of one of the Ten Commandments, yeah. But yeah, here, it's just, like, disbelief.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's interesting. I mean, God's after our hearts.
Seth: It is.
David: You know, God's after our belief and our trust in him, and ultimately, that's what is the most offensive sin that we can commit, is disbelief in him. And that's, ultimately, when we get to Jesus, what he requires of us-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is belief.
Seth: Trust me.
David: Trust me, yeah. And so I, I was thinking about this, though, with the sin of Moses, and I was trying to meditate on it this morning. And I was like, man, it's such an ambiguous sin, and it's hard. What were his motives? And it seems murky. And then I was like, oh, like, you know, you and I were in a discipleship group together for years-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we confessed sin to each other. And oftentimes, that's what it feels like when we're trying to be like, what was behind my action here?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, my motives-
Seth: Let's get behind it.
David: Yeah, my motives-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... seemed murky, and I feel like part of it was good, but part of it was bad, and it, I couldn't-
Seth: It's like, I-
David: ... quite get to the sin
Seth: ... these people have over and over and over and over again said the same thing to me, and I'm just tired of it.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, so it feels like my response is justified, but at the same time-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the Lord told me to speak to the rock, and I hit it. Like, which one?
David: Yeah, but the water still came out. Like- [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it just feels, like, very human. You know?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: It feels, it feels very much like, oh yeah, that is what it's like whenever I sin, is it doesn't just feel like cut and dry, black and white. There's often these mixed motives, and, and yet the sin is still real-
Seth: Right
David: ... and deserving of punishment. And anyway.
Seth: So if we're seeing the concentric circles-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... fail.
David: Oh, right. Yep.
Seth: Disobedience, disbelief, disbelief, distrust, distrust, distrust. You now have the king of the people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the one who is supposed to provide for everybody, failing.
David: And the intercessor, the high priest.
Seth: He's about to die in-
David: Yep
Seth: ... just a moment. All the leaders are about to die, and all that's left is God in the middle.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I think, which is... So one, like, we need to think about that, but God provides. So all the layers fail-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... including the leaders, and God still provides water for them, right?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So it's like at the end-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the disobedience, God is still faithful to provide for his people, even when the leader fails.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think at the end of the day, this is what Paul picks up on-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in this story, is not the fact that Jesus is a better intercessor than Moses, and we talked about that last week.
David: Right.
Seth: We actually, Paul picks up on the fact that Jesus is the water from the rock.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That Jesus provides for his people even when the leaders have failed.
David: Yes.
Seth: Do you have the verse right there?
David: Yeah, I do. And so, uh, Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 is kind of walking through the e- the Exodus story and then the wilderness wandering. So it said, I'm, I'm gonna read three verses or so. "For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers," so these people we're reading about, "were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea." So this is the Exodus story. They were led by the cloud. They passed through the Red Sea, and they were all, in a sense, baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. And then they went into the wilderness, right? And they all ate the same spiritual food, and they all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank, and here it is, "they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ." So there's a few things happening here. He's saying, there, there's this Jewish tradition that, um, Paul was probably aware of that you can go and read about in some of the rabbinic literature, that, um, it was believed that there was this ... rock-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that actually followed the people of Israel throughout the wilderness.
Seth: Like floating.
David: Like a floating rock and you, and it-
Seth: [laughs]
David: And w- and it was that that provided water wherever-
Seth: Right
David: ... they went. And, and he's saying that that floating rock was actually Jesus. [laughs]
Seth: Right, right, right. I think, I don't, I'm not sure about a floating rock hypothesis.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I like how he said, like, in the very beginning of their wilderness wandering, they complain.
David: Yep.
Seth: And there's water from a rock, and at the very end of their wilderness wanderings-
David: Oh
Seth: ... there is-
David: Right
Seth: ... uh, another rock.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's, water comes from another rock.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so it's like the whole wilderness water nee- wa- wanderings, uh, waterings-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Wanderings-
David: Wanderings
Seth: ... is bookended by water from a rock.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like it follows them.
David: It follows them everywhere.
Seth: It followed them everywhere.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's, God's faithfulness is on-
David: Right
Seth: ... either side of the wil- wilderness.
David: You could, you could also think about if it's a spiritual rock, right?
Seth: Right.
David: A, a breath rock [laughs] you know, that kind of goes wherever it needs to go, there's rocks all over the wilderness.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And this spiritual rock, this invisible rock, this provision of God could go into any physical rock-
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... you know, and make it a spiritual one and make it-
Seth: Right
David: ... spring water out of-
Seth: Possess a rock. [laughs]
David: Possess a rock. [laughs] And so, uh, anyway, it's, it's interesting to think about that. Uh, but regardless of the actual [laughs] reality of how this took place, we're talking about a lot of different miracles anyway in this, in this story. Um, but he's saying that the, the, the thing that provided water from a rock was Jesus.
Seth: Mm.
David: He is the one that was struck and water came out of.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or that he was spoken to and water came out of. And so, like, what are we supposed to see here? You kind of mentioned it a little bit, but you're saying that Jesus provides for us even whenever we have n- like no-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... no reason to be provided for, or what were you saying?
Seth: I think that's part of it. I think, like, if you have, if you have the wilderness wanderings bookended by provision of water-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and it comes through striking the rock.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, we do have a picture of Jesus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who is struck by a sword and water comes from his side, right?
David: Yeah, exactly right.
Seth: Jesus himself says he is the living water-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to the woman at the well, and she's thirsty and she needs water.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Jesus's message to her is, "Come drink from the water of life."
David: "And you'll never thirst again."
Seth: "And you'll never thirst again." So like th-
David: Your wandering will be over.
Seth: Yes.
David: Mm.
Seth: So like there is, what's happened for Israel and it, the physical provision of thirst is what Jesus does for us spiritually.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think there's also promises embedded in there, like if you are listening to this on a cell phone in the middle of Kenya, not, with no access to water-
David: Right, yeah
Seth: ... there are real, [laughs] like, if you don't have access to water, the Lord provides for your daily needs.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He provides for y- provides for your daily bread. But for all of us, whether or not we live in abundance or not, the Lord provides water for us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when we trust him to.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so like Moses was-
David: Oh, that's good. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, like, right? [laughs]
David: Yeah, this is, uh, yeah, so this leans into belief or disbelief.
Seth: Right.
David: Where it's like, well, okay, if God provides us with spiritual water that quenches our deepest needs and that we'll never again thirst again, our wanderings will be over, we'll be with him satisfied, how do we get that rock? Or, you know, how do we get that water from that rock? Belief.
Seth: Belief. Trust.
David: We trust that he is that.
Seth: Moses didn't need to strike the-
David: Moses didn't, yeah, mm-hmm.
Seth: Didn't need to strike the rock.
David: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: He just needed to trust-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that the wa- water would come from the r- the rock.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it would have.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The fact that he strikes it tells us that that's actually the only way we get the water-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is once Christ the rock is struck for us. That's actually the only way Israel finally will be able to call and trust on the Lord, is if the Lord is sacrificed for them, because their hearts are hard.
David: Mm.
Seth: Their hearts are always stuck in a pattern of distrust. The center never holds. The whole nation has imploded like a dying star, and nobody can trust the Lord. If we're gonna trust the Lord again, we're gonna have to have that different spirit that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Caleb had, or the spirit that the 70 elders had descend upon them. The Lord will actually have to give us a new heart. Like, r- rivers of living water will need to flow not into us, but from us, in order for us to trust the way that Moses never did.
David: That's right.
Seth: Or did not at the end.
David: Yeah, and that's what John picks up on, uh, the, the livers, the livers... Oh, that's what Sa- [laughs]
Seth: The livers. [laughs]
David: Sam, Sam, our lead pastor, I was having him on the Bridgeway podcast, and he said the livers of liv- of living water, too.
Seth: Liv- liv- li- th- th-
David: Uh, so he, he's not the only one. But yeah, the rivers of living water that, um, that John talk, that Jesus talks about in, in John is linked to the Holy Spirit that comes and flows through us and gives us a new heart.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I think you're absolutely right to link those two, that what will take us away from this disbelief, it is the fact that when we look to Christ and trust him as our rock, that these rivers of living water come into us and give us the heart that we need to actually obey, the new spirit of Caleb, the Holy Spirit within us that actually leads us away from disbelief and into belief. [gentle music]
Seth: So the next thing that happens after, uh, Moses disbelieves in the Lord.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They send messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom, who are the descendants of Esau. So this is important-
David: Very important
Seth: ... because Esau and Jacob were brothers-
David: Yep
Seth: ... back in the day.
David: And both of them received new names.
Seth: Yes.
David: Esau was renamed Edom and Jacob was renamed Israel.
Seth: Yes.
David: So now Jacob and Esau are meeting again-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but they're Edom and Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's like an old sibling, old siblings-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... have now turned into nations are coming back together.
David: Right.
Seth: And so Moses knows this, and so he kinda is making a treaty with Edom to pass through their land.
David: Right, and that's kinda, that is, should throw us back to Genesis-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because that's what happened. Jacob tried to make a treaty with Esau before they even met. He sent, like, this parade of gifts, and-
Seth: Yeah, to pick up
David: ... and, and, and, um, Esau had his huge army with him, and so it's very similar what's, what's happened. But if you remember, in that story, they met and they embraced, and everything, there was reconciliation, and it was beautiful.
Seth: Yes.
David: But-
Seth: That's not what happens here
David: ... [laughs] not, not so here.
Seth: What ends up happening is they, after repeated attempts to go through their land, Esau just says no.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they send a huge army against Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: And Moses is not allowed to go through their land. Now, this should, again, trigger some- Reminder bells for you, because back in 14, when the 12 spies go into the land and they come back and everybody complains, Israel has this moment of a lack of faith, and they decide not to go back into the land. And what immediately follows? The Amalekites come out and destroy Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: And here, Moses complains against the Lord, or there's a complaint again about water.
David: Right.
Seth: Moses disbelieves in the Lord, and a huge army comes out and does not allow them to enter into the land.
David: Oh, right. Yep.
Seth: So the same type of disbelief that happened to Israel on the border of Canaan is being paralleled here.
David: Yes.
Seth: Moses has not believed the Lord, and he's not allowed to enter the land-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because of it.
David: It's also really interesting, too, if you're thinking, if you're taking this in in kind of a meta level, where you're like, uh, God chose Jacob over Esau.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, but now we see that he's kind of protecting Esau and rejecting Jacob.
Seth: You're right.
David: Like, not covenantally.
Seth: Right.
David: I'm not saying, like, through-
Seth: That's good. Good
David: ... the Bible.
Seth: There's just irony here.
David: There's just irony here that's taking place, that it's like Esau's protected and Jacob's abandoned.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's kind of the opposite that's happening here. So it's just an interesting meta detail to, to think about.
Seth: So the point of this little excursus about Edom is that Moses has failed the same way Israel has.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The center's not held. The leaders of Israel are not adequate intercessors. They disbelieve-
David: Right
Seth: ... just as much as Israel, just as much as the Levites. They're in rebellion just as much of the nations of the earth.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's here we have one intercessor left, the intercessor of intercessors, Aaron, the high priest.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he goes up on a mountain and he dies.
David: That's right, yeah, and so this is part of the punishment that came to Moses and Aaron whenever they struck the rock and water came out. Both Moses and Aaron are punished, and it, and God says to them that they will not enter the Promised Land. They will die in the wilderness like the older generation. And you might be thinking, like, "I thought Moses did most of the sinning in, in-
Seth: Right, right, right, right
David: ... in the narrative. Why is Aaron looped into this?" And it's kind of a repeat of what happened with Miriam and Aaron, where it's like Miriam-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and Aaron come, and they are both, you know, voicing a complaint against Moses, um, at, earlier in Numbers-
Seth: And Miriam-
David: ... but only Miriam is punished.
Seth: Right.
David: And here it's like Moses and Aaron are sinning, but now Aaron is punished [laughs]. And so we kind of get, you know, Aar- Aaron finally gets his, [laughs] you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... in a sense. And so, um, they go up this mountain and, um, m- it's Moses, Aaron, and Eleazar, um, Aaron's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... son. And they, they have all the priestly garments that we read about, like how they're supposed to be made in Exodus and everything like that. They have them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And these are the vestments of the high priesthood.
Seth: Right.
David: And they are taken off Aaron and put on Eleazar, and then Aaron dies. And what... This, this moment is so important for several reasons, one of which is that this is a changing of the guard-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from the old generation to the new generation. So we should expect that right here there's a changing of the guard from the old generation to the new generation. We're probably here near the end of the time that God promised punishment on the older generation, and now we should expect that something new is going to happen.
Seth: So what you're saying is this whole time in the book, we were told back in Numbers 14-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that because they disobeyed, uh, at the border of Canaan, and then the Canaanites came out and killed them, like, you're gonna wander in the wilderness for 40 years, one day for every day that we're spying out the land.
David: Right.
Seth: That time is coming to an end.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so we see that in the fact that one of the first people of the new generation is actually being elected to one of the offices of the land.
David: Exactly right.
Seth: Okay?
David: The center is changing.
Seth: Right.
David: Which is really interesting. It's like it's changing from the inside out.
Seth: Right.
David: The concentric circles are starting in the middle again.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the new generation is starting right at the tent of the door.
Seth: The center did not hold-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... first time around.
David: Right.
Seth: And so it's time to see if the, the experiment can a-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... work this time.
David: Right.
Seth: Can we supernova back out to the nation that we're suppo-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... supposed to be as we've died, as the star has imploded on itself. [laughs]
David: Yeah. And so, um, there's a couple things that we, I just wanna, like, zoom out real quick before we look to the new generation, because that's what's about to happen in the next story. Um, first off, with this refusal, um, of Edom, like the refusal to enter-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... through Edom, and this irony of God protecting Esau and rejecting Jacob, th- this, this might be a controversial way to say this, but this is a foreshadowing of, um, the new covenant in Christ, where not all Israel is true Israel, where the nations will be brought in, um-
Seth: Yes
David: ... at the expense of some of the Jews who reject Jesus. Those who reject, uh, God will not be, be included just by their birthright, and there's, there's gonna be favor for those who believe.
Seth: Yeah. Even if we don't necessarily know that, I think you're right. Like, Israel within Israel. There are hopefully faithful people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... within the new generation-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... and Eleazar-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is, like, the firstfruits of that.
David: Right.
Seth: He's, like, the first potential proof of that. But also, you have these hints that the nations are included in this concentric circles-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and they're not left out of it, because they're the first ones where the center does not hold.
David: Right.
Seth: They're like the disbelieving outer ring, but they're still included in the storyline of salvation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, they're still part of the narrative where God is in the center of not just Israel, but actually the whole world.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, yes, I think you're-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... probably right.
David: 'Cause when we read about this in Deuteronomy 2, um, Edom is talked about, uh, there as Moses is recounting what happened in the book of Numbers, and God shows concern for Esau. He shows protection for Edom, and he says, like, "Don't hurt anything in their land." You know, like, "If you end up drinking any water, pay for it. If you take any food, pay for it." He's protecting Edom. Which is not the people that he said were going to be his people. And so it just shows that God's concern has always been for the nations. And so in the new covenant under Jesus, that's what we see, is it's that those who put their faith in Jesus are brought into God's protection. You know? And, like, and, and Israel has not been putting their faith in God, and so they are not brought into his protection. They're not given passage to the promised land, you know, through Edom.
Seth: Yeah, God is never just concerned with I- Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: God's plan has always included the nations.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's seen in the fact that there are mixed multitudes in the wandering tribe. It's the, seen in the fact that there's one law for the sojourner and the native.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's seen in the fact that God's protecting Esau-
David: Yep
Seth: ... uh, staying true to covenants previously made with-
David: Right
Seth: ... past generations, and we see it here. We, it's exactly right.
David: Yep.
Seth: We also see Jesus in, like, the succession of priests, of priesthood.
David: Yes.
Seth: So we have this moment where, uh, you have one spirit-filled person, uh, Aaron, passing his vestments, his priestly wardrobe-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to another spirit-filled representative, Eleazar, who will act as intercessor for the people.
David: Right.
Seth: So we already said, I think, that he's like, "This is the new inner ring. This is the new center-
David: Yep
Seth: ... for the people." Like, the first ring failed, so maybe if we rebuild it from the center it'll work.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: Like [laughs]
David: Yep
Seth: ... that's the, hopefully the hope.
David: Yes.
Seth: But we, what we see there is, like, there is a succession. When one priest dies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a new priest takes his place. This is exactly what we get in, like, that makes sense of why we all become, we become a nation of priests-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in Jesus Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus Christ is our priest, and when he dies, he clothes us with robes of righteousness-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but he makes us a nation of priests because we are filled with his spirit.
David: Yes.
Seth: So what happens-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... for one person-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in Numbers happens for every believer-
David: Right
Seth: ... after Christ.
David: Which is what Moses wanted to happen when everyone was filled with the Spirit. He's like, "I wish everyone was filled with the Spirit."
Seth: I wish everybody was prophesy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I wish everybody could be priests-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to the Lord.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it happens in Christ.
David: That's right, yeah. The, our high priest dies in order to make priests of us all.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's, it's beautiful, yeah. Okay, so, so the new generation has come, uh, or, or is starting to come.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's still a little bit left of the old generation. They're, uh, they're about to have two more big things happen to them that finishes them off. [laughs] And, uh, so, uh, but now we have a majority of the camp is now the new generation. And we, and with the switching of Eleazar for Aaron, we see the tide start to turn.
Seth: Yes.
David: Good things start to happen. And so, um, in, in the same place where Israel, after denying or refusing to go into the promised land, in that same place, if you remember earlier-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where they went in and tried to take this little city, Canaanite city, by force-
Seth: Right
David: ... but God wasn't with them-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... and so they were, they, they died and were driven out. They go back to the same place, and they actually ask God if he will give them the land. God says yes, and so they go in and they actually take Arad, uh, which is then renamed Hormah, which means destruction-
Seth: Yes
David: ... which was ironic the first time-
Seth: Right
David: ... that were, 'cause it was Israel that was destroyed, but now it's their enemies that are destroyed.
Seth: Oh, fascinating.
David: And so-
Seth: They do that in Hosea too.
David: Oh, do they?
Seth: In Jezreel's place of destruction-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but it becomes this place of redemption.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, he renames it.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it's also a parallel to what we saw at the very beginning of the wilderness wander- wanderings. In Exodus 17, Israel grumbles about the water, then they are attacked by another tribe, the Amalekites-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then they're saved by Moses interceding and lifting up his hands.
David: Oh, lifting his hands, yeah.
Seth: And so right here, what do they do? They pray, and they're given victory over battle after the grumbling of the water [laughs]. So it's the same thing-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but with a new generation. It's the same pattern, but it's also a preview that this might be, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... this new generation is like the beginning of the wilderness wanderings.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: It's like it's restarting.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's res- the whole pattern's restarting.
David: Yep. If they could... And then, and then it's also foreshadowing the future, where it's like if they could win this battle against the Canaanites, maybe they could take the whole land.
Seth: Yeah, it's a preview of the Book of Joshua-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that's coming up.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: But the, uh, the good times don't last very long. Um-
Seth: No. And they-
David: Something, something is about to happen with the older generation.
Seth: And remember, what we saw ever since Miriam is the slow decay of the f- last generation. The, the leaders-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the old generation are passing away. They're dying. New leaders are being risen up. The new generation is having victories and battles just like the old generation did at the beginning of the wilderness wanderings.
David: Right.
Seth: And this is kinda like the final stroke against the old generation. [instrumental music] Okay, so the final stroke against the old generation-
David: Second to last
Seth: ... second to last, sorry.
David: Yep.
Seth: Second to last.
David: There's one more after Balaam.
Seth: Um, what ends up happening is that they complain again. [laughs] They say, "You brought us out of the wilderness, out of Egypt to die in the wilderness."
David: Yeah. And notice, who are they complaining against? Not just Moses and Aaron this time.
Seth: But against God.
David: This is one of the first times they go straight to God.
Seth: Mm.
David: And they are complaining against God himself.
Seth: Which makes sense if you have the intercessors are dying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, Aaron's dead. Miriam's dead. Moses, they probably see as incompetent, so they can just go straight to God-
David: Yep
Seth: ... without thinking they need an intercessor.
David: Right.
Seth: And, uh, they basically repeat what they said earlier on [laughs] in the book of-
David: Yeah, it's Israel's greatest hits all over again.
Seth: S- [laughs]
David: They just keep repeating them.
Seth: "Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and they bit the people, so that many of the people of Israel died."
David: So these, these fiery serpents, which fiery s- uh, is probably just a, a descriptor to the feeling of the poison-
Seth: Mm
David: ... going into your veins.
Seth: I heard there's, like, an ambiguity in the, in the Hebrew-
David: There is
Seth: ... so that s- some people think that Moses should have made a statue of the flame-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and-
David: And not-
Seth: ... but that was the fire
David: ... and not a serpent
Seth: ... was not the serpent.
David: Interesting.
Seth: Was that... That's funny. Then it also made me think, fiery serpent's like the seraphim in heaven-
David: Oh, yes, right
Seth: ... because seraphim is just a n-
David: A snake
Seth: ... it's a snake.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, there's a holy snake in heaven praising the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I wondered, like, it... Anyway.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: I'm wondering if there's a connection to that here.
David: That maybe the, these are even divine judgers coming down-
Seth: Right
David: ... to judge.
Seth: Just like he did, uh, like the, the angel of death-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... in, against the, the Egyptians.
David: And the one that barred them from the ... um, entrance back into the garden, the f- the, the ch- cherubim with a sword
Seth: The cher- cherubim with a sword
David: Yeah
Seth: Yeah
David: So it's like God uses d- his divine messengers and his holy council of spiritual beings to come-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and do work on Earth.
Seth: And we just dropped something crazy.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, there's like divine snakes in heaven, like, like holy, fiery snakes worshiping the Lord in heaven.
David: [laughs]
Seth: There is research to back that up.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, but I just learned about it. Like, it's on coins-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in ancient Mesopotamia. You can find coins with, like, angelic snakes.
David: That's weird.
Seth: And part of the reason people believe that in Eden the snake was a snake was because he was a fallen seraphim-
David: Right
Seth: ... from the courts of heaven that used to praise God.
David: Right.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff there.
Seth: There's a lot. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's just a taste for something-
David: Yes
Seth: ... later.
David: And then, uh, while we're talking about the words, the word, um, snake sounds a lot like the word bronze in-
Seth: Oh
David: ... in Hebrew.
Seth: Okay, okay.
David: And so it's kind of a play on words there, too, where it's like there's this, this serpent, and then it's the bronze serpent.
Seth: Right.
David: It's kind of like a double entendre.
Seth: And what you're talking about there is the fact that the way that this, the people will be saved from the curse of the, from the poison-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is by Moses crafting a bronze serpent-
David: Right
Seth: ... lifting it up in the middle of the camp, and all who look to the bronze serpent will be saved.
David: Right. And so, yeah, Go- and this was God ordained, like, right? Isn't it, isn't it, didn't God tell him to make this?
Seth: Yep, he did.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He did.
David: Okay, so, so God says, like, "Okay, the, these people have repented publicly."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, this is a corporate repentance, "We have sinned against the Lord."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "So help us. We, we're all dying."
Seth: Yeah.
David: But then God says, "Okay, great. Make a bronze serpent, and then when people look to it, then individually-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... then they will be, they will be healed and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... rescued from di- from death
Seth: And this isn't an idol. So some people think, like, Moses was wrong to do this.
David: Right, right.
Seth: But no, God intended it, so this wasn't idol. Although, later on-
David: It becomes one
Seth: ... yeah, in Second Kings 18-
David: Is it Hezekiah that does this?
Seth: Second... I don't know. Second Kings 18, I don't know what it's referenced.
David: Okay.
Seth: 18:4.
David: Yeah, one of the kings of Israel ends up taking this out. I think it's Hezekiah. I think. Anyway.
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: Ends up taking this, this bronze serpent out of, um, is it in the temple?
Seth: I guess so.
David: He takes it out and gets rid of it because it had become an idol. People started worshiping it as an image of God that could save them-
Seth: Right
David: ... apart from God himself.
Seth: Right.
David: And so, like, what was meant to be a symbol [laughs]
Seth: Right
David: ... of faith became a, a, I don't know, an idol of, like... I mean-
Seth: That is interesting.
David: Yeah, it's... I'm trying, I'm trying-
Seth: Because-
David: There are things I wanna say right now that-
Seth: Like what? What do you wanna say, David?
David: Well, the, it's just controversial things.
Seth: Oh. Oh, oh, oh.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Well, I think... So let's, let's talk about, so why would you make a bronze serpent? Like, why is-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... why is that the response?
David: Yes. Okay. So I love this question.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because the reason is, a- and apparently this was in the na- ancient Near East. Oh, I can't... I gotta remember the name of it. It was like, uh... Oh, I can't remember it. Dang it. I read it this morning. But there's this thing in the ancient Near East where if you say, let's say, for instance, you were actually bitten by a real-
Seth: Right
David: ... snake out in the wilderness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay? You were bitten by a snake. You would come and you would look at the image of a snake.
Seth: Oh.
David: Yeah. And it was supposed to, like, counteract it. It was like, uh, you know, like what is it in math whenever you have two things that cross, cancel each other out? It's kinda like that thing. [laughs]
Seth: Subtraction?
David: No. [laughs] No.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like denominators and something with fractions.
Seth: Fractions?
David: Yeah, it's like there's this thing that cancels each other. It, it-
Seth: I don't do that
David: ... it's in algebra. Anyway.
Seth: Okay.
David: Anyway, it's like it's supposed to-
Seth: Neither of us are math people. [laughs]
David: No. It's like a double negative. It cancels it out.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so there's this thing. And so, um, that's kind of what's happening here, is that you need the, um, the thing that poisoned you is the thing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that can save you.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay.
David: That's important because when we get to Jesus and He uses this-
Seth: Right
David: ... and we'll get into it more here in a second, but I'll just make this one point, which is, is that the sin that actually was going to kill us, that was going to bring death to us, He experienced it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's a one-for-one thing.
Seth: Right.
David: It's an eye-for-eye thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's we had the poison of these fiery snakes in us, so we had to look to some- something that was a fiery poisonous snake. And, like, so anyway, that's kind of the reason-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... why it had to be a-
Seth: It's like it was com- it was kind of expected that this was the cure.
David: Yes.
Seth: But never on this scale.
David: No.
Seth: And I'm assuming most of the time that probably didn't work.
David: In, yeah, it did not work.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you need antivenom.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: You don't, you don't need to look-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... at a picture of a snake.
David: God was repurposing a cultural practice to show that he was actually better than it.
Seth: Yes.
David: To show that he could do something that the cultural practices never could.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah, and that he's actually powerful over these things. Because most likely, I mean, it's not... Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I, I happen to think these weren't normal snakes.
Seth: Fiery snakes.
David: Yeah. I think these were-
Seth: These might have been holy snakes.
David: Holy s- holy snake. Holy snakes!
Seth: [laughs]
David: Holy snakes, Batman!
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs] And so anyway, yeah. So that's, uh, that, maybe that's one reason why it's a bronze s- serpent. Was there something else you wanted to get at with that question?
Seth: Well, I think, too, it's, it's a symbol of their punishment. It's like a symbol of their sin. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... they're, they have poison running through their veins, and so they must look to the, the poison [laughs]
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in order to be saved. So I think it's, it's kinda the same point.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think that's kinda the point that John picks up in John 3.
David: Yes. So yeah, this is the famous story of Jesus talking to Nicodemus, uh, who was one of the Pharisees, and, uh, this is, this is right before, right, the, the famous, the most famous passage in the Bible, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son." This is right before John 3:16.
Seth: Right.
David: So what does it say?
Seth: It says... Oh, I'm not looking at it.
David: Oh, I thought you were. You had your phone out.
Seth: I was-
David: Okay
Seth: ... I was looking at my Devo for this.
David: Oh, okay. Here, I've, I've got it. I've got it here. Let's see here. It is, what verse is it? Oh, here it is: "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from he- heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up" ... that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Any time in the Book of John that Jesus talks about himself being lifted up, he is talking about what is to come in his crucifixion, when he is literally raised-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... up on the cross and killed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's saying, "I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be raised up on a cross like that bronze serpent was raised up-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and anyone who looks to me with the eyes of faith will be saved from their sin and death because I will have borne it for them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... just like it happened for Israel in the wilderness."
Seth: And think about who Nicodemus was.
David: Mm.
Seth: He was a member of the Jewish people.
David: Right.
Seth: And he was denying the miracles of Jesus.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: He was this unspiritual person who couldn't see the truth, and Jesus calls him out for being an unspiritual person a couple different times in that passage.
David: Oh, y- [laughs] yeah, right.
Seth: And what God tells Moses to do is to make a bronze snake and lift it up, and it, anyone who looks at it will be saved.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Nicodemus sh- I think should know that there's, like, this God-denying, like, poison in his veins.
David: Mm.
Seth: He should expect that in order for that to, him to be saved from it, his f- sin is gonna have to be made flesh and lifted up so that when you look at it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you are saved. And we have a text where it says, "He who knew no sin became sin-
David: Right
Seth: ... so that we might become the righteousness of God."
David: Mm.
Seth: So there is this truth where God becomes our sin-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the same way that the snake becomes this, like, the symbol of the s- of Israel's sin.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And when you look to the symbol of your sin, you are saved.
David: Wow.
Seth: And what's crazy is that we look at a text like this, and like, God must have hated Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: But this is said in the same passage in the Book of John where Jesus says, "I came to love the world. I don't hate the world. I didn't come to condemn the world-
David: Wow
Seth: ... I came to save it." Jesus didn't come to judge and condemn Israel or us. He doesn't want us to writhe in our unbelief. He's become flesh, so when he was lifted up on the cross, we could look to him and not perish-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but have eternal life-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the Promised Land.
David: It's amazing. Yeah, I, I, I think it's also cool how Jesus escalates the promise of the snake, right? Because it's not only that the... When they looked at the snake, the poison went away.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, they would be saved-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from dying right then.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But everyone from the older generation was still gonna die. They were still under a punishment, you know? Uh, and here, though, uh, like you, like you just said, anyone who believes in Jesus has eternal life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in an eternal promised land. A- and then I also think about the, the text you referenced where it's like, "He who knew no sin became sin."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what's the rest of that? So that we might become-
Seth: Right before
David: ... the righteousness of God. And so not only, like the bro-
Seth: It's our sin taken away.
David: Yeah, it's the sin taken away.
Seth: The poison drained.
David: We actually get something new and better. Israel just had the bad taken away. They didn't get anything good in return.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We also get the righteousness of God. It's not that we are brought back to net zero, and we're just healthy people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and we have to not mess up again, or the snakes are coming back.
Seth: The theological words.
David: We are actually made the righteousness of God.
Seth: Uh, propitiation-
David: Right
Seth: ... and, uh, oh, what's the other one? [laughs]
David: Justification.
Seth: And justification.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The wrath of God is taken away.
David: It's propitiated.
Seth: It's propitiated. That's what happens here.
David: Yes.
Seth: The wrath of God is taken away, but in Jesus, not only is the wrath of God propitiated, we are also justified.
David: Right.
Seth: We're declared righteous.
David: Righteous, yeah.
Seth: We're declared the new generation-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who can enter into God's rest.
David: It's amazing. I love that story. Um, and so then after that, are you done, are you done there?
Seth: I'm done.
David: Okay.
Seth: I'm done.
David: There's, we could probably keep going on that, but it's, it's a beautiful text. I just love it. Any time that Jesus does our work for us in the Spoken Gospel podcast, it's really a beautiful thing.
Seth: Beautiful moment.
David: Where it's just like [laughs] anyway, it's also one of the fundamental texts-
Seth: Right
David: ... for why we do this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is because Jesus is able to look at this obscure story. It's only... How, how many verses is this?
Seth: Uh, five.
David: It's, like, five verses, and it's weird.
Seth: It is weird.
David: And Jesus is like, "That's me."
Seth: That's me.
David: And like, that's what we're doing in this podcast, is just going like, you can do this with every text-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if you do it responsibly.
Seth: Right.
David: But, like, you can do it in every text. Anyway, and so then we get, um, some more victories, right?
Seth: More victories and battles.
David: More victories and battle.
Seth: Um, and there's songs being sung as they do it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like, it should feel different. Like-
David: Very different
Seth: ... there's poems.
David: Yep.
Seth: There's songs being... It's like, it's not like anything you've read so far because this new generation is new.
David: Yes.
Seth: You should expect it to look different as they start winning these battles.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh-
David: So they win against Sihon, and they win against Og, uh, and that kind of brings us to the end of this chapter before we meet Balaam.
Seth: There, yeah, and one thing that you should... Verse 26.
David: Mm.
Seth: So they come to Heshbon, and they destroy it, and they beat it, and there's this, like, proviso. There's, like, this justification for their actions in verse 26. "For Heshbon was the city of Sihon, the king of the Amorites, who had fought against the former king-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of Moab and taken all his land out of his hand as far as, uh, as the Arnon."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So this is, this should, this is important-
David: Right
Seth: ... because Moab were, were the descendants of Lot, and Israel was told, "You cannot take any of Moab's land." Like, this land is protected because God is keeping his covenant for people that are not, are not necessarily from Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: But it's okay for them to take this land because it was taken by the king of the Amorites-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and this no longer belongs to Moab. And so he's really, it's really, like, strange that he adds this, like, proviso, this clarification, this justification, because what he's doing is Balaam is about to come, and he's about to curse Israel.
David: Yep.
Seth: He's about to-
David: On behalf of the Moabites.
Seth: Yeah, he's about to curse them ri- on behalf of the Moabites.
David: Right.
Seth: And what this is doing, saying, "No, no, no, no. They were actually justified in doing so." Like, Balaam, the Moabites might be justified in cursing them if the Mo- this land actually belonged to the Moabites.
David: Right.
Seth: But it doesn't.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They were just in taking it. And what I thought about this, I was like, what's fascinating to me is, like, God keeps his promises-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he keeps his law.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I think when I think about, like, Jesus fulfilling the Old Testament laws, it's like, oh, they're just different. Like-
David: Oh, sure
Seth: ... we get a free pass.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, Go- you know, it's like they're just different now. Like, we don't have to think about them. Like, we don't have to, like, do the precise mathematical equations. But, like, you see here, like, God is being faithful- To his law-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in circumstance very, um, particularly.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you were not supposed to take that land, but it was taken over by somebody else, so now that you're allowed to take it-
David: Oh, I see. Yeah
Seth: ... the law is fulfilled.
David: Yep.
Seth: You can now go and take the land.
David: Mm.
Seth: I was like, man.
David: Even on a geopolitical scale-
Seth: Right
David: ... God is obeying his own law.
Seth: Right. Or it takes me back to, like, the mistrial of the woman caught in adultery.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: It's not that she hasn't sinned, it's that the Pharisees are following the incorrect c- court procedures-
David: Right
Seth: ... and so he says, "The trial must be thrown out."
David: Right.
Seth: He's not letting an innocent party go.
David: Right.
Seth: He's saying, "You're not trying it fair- fairly."
David: Yeah, you, you didn't follow the law.
Seth: Right, you didn't follow the law.
David: That's interesting. The other thing to point out here in this, um, in this, uh... Why, why does Moses bring this up, it, about the, uh, about the-
Seth: Moabites
David: ... Amorites and the Moabites and all-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this stuff, uh, is because i- there's also a statement here about how powerful the God of Israel is whenever he fights with Israel.
Seth: Mm. Yeah.
David: Because they, they said that the, that, um, the God of the Amorite, or, you know, the, the, the people of the Amorites, they went and they took over all of Moab. So Am- the Amorites are stronger than the Moabites.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But then Israel... And then you read this long song. There's a, there's a war song in here that's not an Israelite ballad, it's a, it's an Amorite ballad, and it talks, it praises the strength of the Amorites. And it talks about how they're so much stronger than Moab, and they're just so buff and they're so swole. [laughs] And, and then what happens is that it's all ironic because Israel beats them.
Seth: Right. Verse 34, "Do not fear them, for I have given him into your hand."
David: Right. And so it doesn't matter how strong they are, th- they're, they're much bigger and badder.
Seth: Right.
David: A- and so it's just, it's just also supposed to amplify the fact that Israel's taking some of the strongest nations that are annexing their neighbors. Israel, this wandering people group that should be starved and anemic in the wilderness-
Seth: Right
David: ... is able to go in and take nations that are, like, conquering the world.
Seth: And think about just from, like, the Moabites' perspective. So there's this group of about two million people, and they've been dying off-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for an entire generation. They've been wandering for 40 years. They're getting weaker and weaker. The old guard's leaving. You have this new people who know nothing but, like, a desert existence. Who are the least likely people you expect to win a battle?
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: It's these guys.
David: Yeah.
Seth: These are a p- these people shouldn't be a threat to you.
David: Mm.
Seth: And yet here they come, taking down the, the biggest bad guys-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of their time. And why? Not because they're the strongest, but because the Lord has given over these people into their hand.
David: Right. And it also kinda cues up the next story, which will be the Moabite king going to Balaam and asking him to curse Israel because he's terrified of them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause he's like, "Man, the Amorites came in here and they kicked our butts."
Seth: The underdog-
David: The u- yeah
Seth: ... is a lot better than we thought he was [laughs] gonna be.
David: And now the Israelites beat the Amorites, who beat us already-
Seth: Right
David: ... so they are going to rock our world. But maybe if we get the spiritual world involved and we, we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... condemn them, then we can win. So we'll look at that next week. And it's one of my... It's, it's the high point of the Book of Numbers, um-
Seth: When a, when a, a pagan prophet-
David: When a [laughs] pagan prophet comes and, and says-
Seth: Tries to curse Israel
David: ... it's so good. I love that story.
Seth: So-
David: So we'll look at that next week
Seth: ... how do we see-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Jesus in successive conquests by the new generation?
David: It's a great question that you've asked yourself there, Seth.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I would love to hear how you answer that.
Seth: I mean, I think the, the easiest thing we see here, I mean, obviously it's a foreshadowing of the Book of Joshua.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And their enemy ev- like, devote to destruction. There's all sorts of language that's used here in Numbers that get-
David: That gets picked up in Joshua
Seth: ... but I think what ultimately how we see Jesus fulfill this is, well, one, in the Great Commission, well, what Jesus, what Jesus says to Pilate.
David: Mm.
Seth: "My kingdom is not of this world-"
David: Right
Seth: "... because if it was-"
David: "My people would fight to secure my release."
Seth: Right.
David: "But my kingdom is from another place."
Seth: So we do know that Jesus has a kingdom, and that has a sphere of authority-
David: Right
Seth: ... but it's not won by military victory.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we know this because of the Great Commission, where he says, "You will go and spread my kingdom to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth," reversing the same s- the imploding stars-
David: Right
Seth: ... heading back outwards again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we also know this from the Book of Revelation, because one of the last acts of Jesus is to come and to destroy the works, uh, the, the nations arrayed against his people-
David: Right
Seth: ... with the wor- the, the word that comes from his mouth.
David: Yeah, not some physical sword. It is just by the word of his mouth that he crushes all enemy kingdoms.
Seth: And I wonder if that word is, "You have been given into my hand."
David: Mm.
Seth: "You are in my hand." It's the same words he used right here. It's like, "I have given them into your hand."
David: Wow.
Seth: And we know that all principalities and powers have been given over to Jesus-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the sword that comes from Jesus' mouth is, "You are mine, and the battle's over."
David: Yeah. It's a beautiful picture to think about that with, I mean... A- and it's gonna mean something different to every single person, no matter, you know, depending on where they live-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and their own geopolitical situation.
Seth: Right.
David: You know, it's gonna mean something different to Americans living in a Trump America.
Seth: Right.
David: It's gonna mean something different to someone-
Seth: What does it mean to-
David: ... someone living in, like, an oppressed, you know, like an oppressive-
Seth: What does it mean-
David: ... government
Seth: ... for people like Israel? So if you, if there are multiple, uh, people groups who are oppressed by their regimes, or they are nomadic-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they're refugees in another land, and they're looking for a homeland. Like, what does this tell people who have no home-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and are looking for one?
David: Yeah.
Seth: What does, what does this tell you? Like, I'm asking you that question.
David: Oh, you're asking me that question.
Seth: Like, as you meditate, like, the, the first application of this text is to people who have no homeland-
David: Right
Seth: ... and who are trying to gain one.
David: Yeah. It's the-
Seth: What is Jesus's final c- like, final coming tell us, give them hope for? Like, what is it?
David: Well, it's that, like, "I'm going to give you a land that you could not get for yourself. I mean, I'm going to bring you peace. I'll give you rest." I mean, that's what it would say to me, is that, like, even though you can't earn it for yourself, even though you, your parents and your, and yourself have done everything to disqualify you from it, I am going to come to you and build my kingdom where you are, despite the-
Seth: Right
David: ... enemies that are around you.
Seth: Yeah, your home doesn't need to be bounded by a border.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Your home is where I am.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I will rout all enemies. Like, if you're, like, faithful where you are- I will route all enemies on your behalf, and you will be home.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You'll be in my presence.
David: And I, I love, yeah, I love that, the presence of God as your home. And isn't that what's happening here as they walk through the wilderness with the presence of God in the tabernacle?
Seth: Yeah.
David: God is, God is say- [laughs] When Jesus returns, right, we, we, Jesus comes out of heaven-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we- we're told that there's no longer any temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because the whole world is God's temple. And so what was cont- what was contained and confined in a tent in Numbers, but that was, like, traveling around the world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it was, it was kind of being in different places one at a time, ends up permeating the whole earth and making the whole world his dwelling.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, yeah.
Seth: And th- if you are a part of an oppressed people group, one day your enemies will be destroyed.
David: Yes.
Seth: There are evil people doing evil things to people all over the world, and even in America, there are evil people oppressing innocent people all over the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: And what this text tells us, that Jesus wins. There's coming a day when he will ride on his horse-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he will destroy all enemies, people that have hurt you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... people that have abused you, people that have s- enslaved you, people that have oppressed you. They will be done away with, so much so that the blood of his, like, the, his garment-
David: Yes, covered in blood
Seth: ... will be covered in blood.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, one, I think that's probably the blood of his enemies.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, a metaphorical picturing of the defeat of the enemies, but also, I think it's his own blood.
David: Right. That's why we're not destroyed, is 'cause he's covered in his own blood, not ours.
Seth: How will Jesus make sure that all your enemies are destroyed, is when he's killed himself.
David: Yeah. And so i- it does, the, it gives such hope. I mean, I just, I, you, you try... I, it, it helps me, too, when I think about, like, how am I gonna wrap my brain around everything that's happening in this world, from sex trafficking to, um, child warfare in Africa, to, like, I mean, all these insane things that are happening in the world, nuclear weapons. It's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... well, the biggest bad guy out there that you could imagine, who has war ballads sung about him because he's the strongest baddie on the planet-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is nothing compared to the God of Israel.
Seth: Think of, like, all those North Korean military de-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... demonstrations where they just parade their entire army.
David: Right.
Seth: And the Lord just says, "I have given you into my hand."
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, uh-
David: He who sits in heaven laughs.
Seth: Yeah, it's just like, it's nothing.
David: Yeah. So anyway, Numbers, Numbers 20 and 21. [laughs] There it is. So, um, Seth, on behalf of myself and all of our Spoken Gospel listeners, I bid you farewell from this podcast studio.
Seth: I'll be in a basement somewhere in Kansas City.
David: [laughs] With your own podcast gear. We'll FaceTime while we, while we do these-
Seth: So we have-
David: ... from now on
Seth: ... the inter- the picture.
David: Yeah. And, uh, and so it's been awesome. 50 episodes here in the studio.
Seth: 50 episodes. We wanna, I wanna do, like, a live 100th episode.
David: That would be fun.
Seth: That would be a lot of fun.
David: That would be a lot of fun. So anyway, well, uh, next week we will take a look at, um, Balaam-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is a great story. And, um, so yeah, thank you, guys, for listening, 50 episodes in. Um, if you haven't yet, go on and rate us.
Seth: Please.
David: It helps us a lot. We have, we're up to 42 ratings and still five stars, so-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... we need to keep that going, guys. That's pretty great.
Seth: We would love that.
David: So-
Seth: Leave us a comment-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because I read all the comments.
David: It makes us feel warm and fuzzy.
Seth: It does.
David: So anyway, really appreciate you guys, and we'll see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
