Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, hey there, everyone. Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Yes.
David: We're glad that you have decided to listen to our voices today.
Seth: Indeed.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Numero... What's 13 in Spanish? I just totally forgot.
David: Uh.
Seth: Uno, dos, tres, cuatro-
David: Cinco, seis
Seth: ... cinco, seis, siete, ocho-
David: Oh, what is this song?
Seth: ... nueve, 10.
David: Once, doce, trece.
Seth: Trece.
David: Trece.
Seth: Numero trece.
David: Numero trece.
Seth: That was kind of Italian.
David: That was [laughs]...
Seth: Numero trece.
David: But you are, you are Italian, so it works.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, yes, this is Numbers 13, and we're gonna go through 15.
Seth: Yes. Because-
David: Because [laughs] We both said because, but none of us, neither of us are gonna explain it.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, yeah, because, uh, w- there's like a full cycle that happens. We talked, we've talked about this several times. There, the, the book of Numbers is cyclical, and it follows the pattern of commands, disobedience, punishment, and intercession.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then after the intercession and the punishment, it goes all the way back to commands again.
Seth: Right.
David: And, uh, the commands usually have something to do with the disobedience that had just-
Seth: Right
David: ... taken place. So instead, so instead of ending with the intercession, which happens in 14, we thought we would end with the start of a new cycle-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in 15, because the commands that are given address the disobedience that has just taken place.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: So it feels more cohesive to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... end there.
Seth: And it's also what the Torah does consistently throughout its five books. Like, there is some big event of disobedience, and r- immediately after the disobedience, there's laws that address that disobedience.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So just like at Sinai, they worship the golden calf, there's a ton of laws about proper worship.
David: Right.
Seth: And then right after the priests again get it wrong, and Nadab and Abihu offer the strange fire, there's a bunch of laws about priests.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so here we're about to see Israel get it wrong, and a bunch of laws after Israel gets it wrong. Then next episode's gonna be the priests get it wrong-
David: Right
Seth: ... and then there's a whole bunch of laws about priests. And then we're gonna see Moses get it wrong.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that kinda breaks the cycle a little bit.
David: It does. Yep, it does.
Seth: But we'll talk about that.
David: We'll talk about why, yep.
Seth: Ep- on, on our 50th episode.
David: On our 50th episode.
Seth: Moses' disobedience.
David: Coming up.
Seth: 50.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: Special 50.
David: Getting close. Um, and so the disobedience that happens in this passage, in 13 and 14, is-
Seth: This is like the most famous disobedience
David: ... and it's, well, and rightfully so. It's the worst one. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, and so, uh, s- I mean, like, and like the second one, close tie for second, is the golden calf.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But like, this one, if you, let's think about it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So what's about to happen is they, uh, Israel's about to refuse to go into the Promised Land, okay? They're, okay.
Seth: Right.
David: But like, think about the whole Bible so far. You're, you're in Eden, right? And you get kicked out for sin, and the whole rest of the story-
Seth: Is trying to get back
David: ... is trying to get back into the land with God.
Seth: And so you're finally on the brink.
David: And so much has happened. Like, God has done so much to try to get them to this place.
Seth: Manna, fire, clouds, plagues.
David: Promises to Abraham.
Seth: Dreams.
David: I mean, think back to Abraham, and then the covenant to Isaac and Jacob.
Seth: The mount. The book of Numbers is legitimately recounting the number of stars in the sky.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, it's like all the promises of God are coming true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There are cracks, but it's like profoundly hopeful that this-
David: Oh, my goodness
Seth: ... is actually the new Eden.
David: Right.
Seth: And so they're there.
David: And it's like, okay.
Seth: They're on the border.
David: Here we go. And then they just don't go in, and they refuse. And, like, we're gonna look at why and the circumstances of it. But just, I just want us to think about the height of this sin because it, it, it's, it's huge, and it reverberates. The, the-
Seth: Or like how irrational it is. Let's talk about that. It's like, if I had been s- paying attention to my-
David: Mm
Seth: ... people's history, and I knew that the ultimate good for me was to be in the new Eden with the Lord-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... why would I, once I'm on the verge of Eden-
David: Right
Seth: ... at the border of Eden, after seeing not just a lifetime of faithfulness to me, but a, like, an entire history of faithfulness, why would I, in that moment, say, "You know, God can't be trusted now"?
David: Right.
Seth: It just seems so irrational-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that you would say, "Uh, I'm not gonna do it."
David: Right.
Seth: "I can't do it. I don't trust God." And that's the probably big thing here. Trust-
David: Trust is huge here
Seth: ... is the ultimate reason that the author gives for-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Israel's punishment. The reason they don't enter into the land-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is disbelief.
David: They just don't have enough, they don't f- they don't have faith in God that he-
Seth: They don't trust God to keep his promises
David: ... can do what he does. Yep, exactly. And this disobedience reverberates through the whole Bible. Like, again and again and again, this is gonna come up. In book after book of the Old Testament, it talks about, um, this sin as the height of unbelief in faith, and it's gonna become a paradigm for Israel's disobedience.
Seth: Refusing to go into Canaan, right.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: It's gonna become a paradigm for Israel's sin down through the ages, all the way to the book of Hebrews in the New Testament. Picks this up in 3, in Hebrews 3 and 4, to talk about our own disbelief and our own lack of trust in God, but now it's whether or not we trust Jesus.
Seth: Right.
David: And so-
Seth: On the border of the new kingdom.
David: Exactly.
Seth: And we have access into it-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... if we trust-
David: Right
Seth: ... that God will be true to his promises.
David: And so th- this is a huge moment in the whole of the Bible. Um, and I just wanted to, like, really lean in and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... go, "Listen, pay attention. This is a big moment."
Seth: So what happens?
David: Um, so, um, they arrive at the Promised Land.
Seth: Verse one.
David: Verse one.
Seth: "The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 'Send men to spy out the land of Canaan, which I'm giving to the people of Israel.'"
David: Yep.
Seth: Which is actually a little bit different than how Moses describes it in Deuteronomy. Did you know that?
David: Oh, is it?
Seth: Well, because in Deuteronomy, it says that God commanded them, uh, just to go into the land. And here it says he commands them to do s- send spies into the land.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So it's a little bit different.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the idea is that, well, God commanded them to go into the land, and the people said, "Well, what, well, what about us sending spies into the land?" And then Moses goes and prays about sending the spies, and then God says, "Okay, send the spies."
David: Oh, so is this more of a concession that God makes?
Seth: That's what I think.
David: Interesting.
Seth: It's not mentioned here, but I think when you read both stories together-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like, oh, their unbelief was actually manifested even earlier.
David: In the spies themselves.
Seth: In the spies themselves.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: God was like, "Just go in blind"
Seth: ... just go.
David: It's-
Seth: I'll-
David: "I'll be there"
Seth: ... I'll be there.
David: Yeah, interesting.
Seth: But again, like, God's also making, like, laws and-
David: Yep
Seth: ... with his people.
David: He's helping, yep.
Seth: So, so it could be that, like, you know, this is a sound strategic tactic.
David: Right.
Seth: We should go in and see what the land has to offer-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the best way to make tax. Regardless, you should know that when you read Deuteronomy 1, that the stories mesh.
David: Yeah, are weave- are weaving together. They're, they, they are kind of like reading, um, Matthew and Mark.
Seth: Yes. That's exactly right.
David: It's like it's the same story, and they're not competing narratives. They fill in gaps that others leave.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, right.
David: And so, um, so then they, so they elect 12, right? Isn't, it's 12, 12-
Seth: Yeah, one-
David: ... 12 spies, one from every tribe.
Seth: One from every tribe.
David: And they go in, and they spy out the land for 40 days, we find out.
Seth: Yes.
David: And they come back, and they bring some fruit from the land, and their initial report is really positive.
Seth: How big was this cluster of grapes, by the way?
David: Okay, I hate this.
Seth: [laughs] I was like-
David: Because in VBS-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... in Sunday school, it was always, like, a big deal that the grapes were huge. But as I was reading this, I was like-
Seth: It mentions twice that it was like, it was time for grape harvest.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they bring a branch of grapes carried between two people.
David: Right.
Seth: So I'm like, was it just, like, a ton of grapes, or was it like VBS giant grapes?
David: I just think-
Seth: Like dinosaur grapes
David: ... to me, it just s- in just reading it, right, the plain meaning of the text just looks like it's... I mean, if you, if you think about, like, a branch of grapes, like a vine, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... and you just put that on a pole and carry it between two people-
Seth: Right
David: ... it just seems like a practical way to carry a whole branch of grapes.
Seth: Right.
David: It doesn's-
Seth: And I could imagine just a big branch of grapes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: Not ne- necessarily a big grape-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... where it's like every grape is the size of a watermelon.
Seth: I know this is really cutting deep at the heart-
David: It really is
Seth: ... of some, some people's entire-
David: Like, no
Seth: ... Christian experience. No, the grapes are giant. I know they were.
David: It was on the felt board. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Just no. But they were probably just like little champagne grapes.
David: Just normal grapes.
Seth: Little wine grapes.
David: But the fact is there are grapes.
Seth: All right.
David: And there, there are healthy vineyards in the land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's what's, that's the point is that the land sustains life, and the grapes are good. And so the initial report's really good. They, they say, uh... Let's see. Where, where do they, where's the first report? It's in verse-
Seth: 17, right?
David: Is it?
Seth: No, no, no, no, no. That's verse 25, sorry.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They go in, it's like, "Here's what we're gonna do," and they talk about... I thought this was interesting.
David: Okay.
Seth: Verse 19, it's like this is what they're going to do, and we're gonna find out whether the land that they dwell in is good or bad, or whether the cities they dwell in are camps or strongholds.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: If the land is rich or poor, the trees are good or not. And they, like, have all these opposites-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that go throughout the whole thing. And I was like, this is such a strange way to, like, talk about. It felt, felt poetic almost.
David: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: That they always, like, went to the highest thing that they could and the lowest thing they could.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It wasn't like we're gonna go out and find a strategic battle plan.
David: Right.
Seth: It's let me poetically describe to you what's happening, and I was trying to figure out why.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I didn't-
David: Is it good or bad? Are they, are they in little REI pinched tents, or are they behind fortified walls? [laughs] It's like-
Seth: Are they strong, or are they weak?
David: [laughs]
Seth: Are they few, or are they many?
David: Yeah. Can't, they can't just be normal. [laughs]
Seth: It's like, yeah. [laughs] So I didn't-
David: It does sound, like, kind of poetic.
Seth: I don't know why that was the case.
David: Uh, what-
Seth: Did it ever-
David: What's it called when it's like, uh-
Seth: A merism
David: ... a merism. Maybe it's a merism-
Seth: Maybe
David: ... where it's like, you know, uh, from the rising to the setting sun doesn't mean only in the morning and only at night. It's-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... in between everything. So it's like maybe it's a merism where it's, it's, it's saying, like, we're gonna find out if they're a zero, on a scale of 0 to 10, how strong are they? I don't know. It could be.
Seth: Right.
David: Anyway, so they go in, and they bring back word, and they said, "They came into the land that you sent us." And this is verse, uh, 27, "It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit."
Seth: Is milk and honey actually what's in it?
David: No.
Seth: Okay.
David: So this is a metaphor. Uh-
Seth: So I, I w- it's g- it's gotta be a metaphor.
David: It's a metaphor. And so milk is talking about it flowing with milk. What makes milk? Like-
Seth: Goats?
David: [laughs]
Seth: Goats?
David: Yeah, goats-
Seth: Cows
David: ... cattle. Yeah.
Seth: Almond milk, cashew milk.
David: Livestock. No, they didn't have cashew milk.
Seth: Are you sure?
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: They could've had cashews.
David: But anyway, what, what's happening is they, it's saying that, like, there's so much livestock that the milk is flowing.
Seth: It's like rivers of milk.
David: Right. And there is so much produce from the land-
Seth: That the beer flows like wine.
David: Oh my goodness. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Is that Dumb and Dumber?
David: Dumb and Dumber.
Seth: Oh my goodness.
David: And, uh, and there's so much, uh, livestock and, or, or sorry, there's so much produce to the land that, like, it, it's honey. Like there's-
Seth: It's like-
David: ... there's so much there. There's just, it's, it's-
Seth: Fertile. There's bees everywhere. The flowers are being pollen-ed.
David: Exactly.
Seth: The cr- the crops will never die.
David: Yep. It's just a land flowing with lots of produce and livestock is what this means.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and the, and here, here's some of its fruit. Uh, however, uh, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large, which those are answers to some of the questions that they went.
Seth: Right.
David: Is the land good or bad? It's good. Are the trees good or bad? They're good. Okay, what about the-
Seth: But-
David: ... what about the questions of the people?
Seth: But there's strongholds.
David: They, do they-
Seth: There's many of them
David: ... are they strong or weak? Do they live in fortified cities or tents, and are they small or large? Well, we found out that it's the f- the latter on all three of those.
Seth: Mm.
David: They are strong, in fortified cities, and they're large.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay? Um, and, uh, and then he says, "And besides all that, we saw some of the descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites, uh, dwell in the land." And so the, the citizens of-
Seth: Who's Anak?
David: Anak.
Seth: I remember as a child-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... reading Frank Peretti novels.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And so there was one about the Tomb of Anak.
David: Oh, really?
Seth: And it was this race of giants, and they went down to this d- dark-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... tomb, and it was, like, terrifying-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for your 13-year-old to read.
David: Well, the, that's what he's getting at here, actually, is that Anak is, is, like, Hebrew, like, uh, metaphor kind of like slant rhyme [laughs] for giant.
Seth: Oh, okay.
David: And so he's, there, there are these large people there.
Seth: Okay.
David: And, um, we should, we should really think about, like, Goliath in this s-
Seth: Right
David: ... scenario.
Seth: Who's, like, nine foot tall.
David: Yeah. Yeah. So it's like big dude, right?
Seth: Or could it have b- just been, like, they were, like, Danish people, like 6' tall?
David: Yeah, just, yeah, just tall Danish people.
Seth: [laughs] Because I've, I've also heard, like, there's not a ton of archeological evidence to suggest that there was just a whole race of giants.
David: Right.
Seth: There was just like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... maybe there was just like... 'Cause I think the average height of people has been growing steadily over time.
David: Yep, that's what they say.
Seth: It's like if everybody who was like in Israel was like-
David: 4'5" [laughs]
Seth: ... 5'5", you know, 4'5", 5'6". And then you walk in, and there-
David: And there's a 7' person.
Seth: There's like-
David: 6 and a half
Seth: ... a bunch of, a bunch of Thunder players. A bunch of-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... you know, like basketball players walking around. You're like, "Oh, my gosh."
David: Right.
Seth: "They're giants."
David: Yes.
Seth: I don't know.
David: Yeah, no, definitely.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, um, and so Caleb, um, comes before Moses, and he's the, he's the only one of the 12 who is like, "We can do this," right? And so he comes, he's like, "Let's go take the land. God is with us. Let's overcome it. Um, nothing can stop us." But the other 11 of the spies that went in aren't so sure. They ha- they are faithless.
Seth: Joshua never went with them.
David: No, but-
Seth: He was just like... He's Moses' right-hand man.
David: That's right.
Seth: He takes the side of Caleb.
David: Yep, he has played the role of a faithful companion to Moses when everybody else was faithless, and so that's why he gets lumped in here with kind of the, the, the righteousness of Caleb.
Seth: Do you wanna hear something fun about Josh- Joshua?
David: Josher?
Seth: Josher.
David: Josher who?
Seth: Joshua.
David: Yes, sure.
Seth: So Verse, uh, 13-
David: Hosea?
Seth: ... 16. Yeah, the Hosea thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The, uh, so, uh, "These were the names of the men whom Moses sent to spy the land, and Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Joshua."
David: Right.
Seth: And so Hoshea just means, like, salvation.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Joshua is actually Yehoshua-
David: Yep
Seth: ... which means God saves.
David: Yahweh saves.
Seth: Yahweh saves.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Yehoshua is actually-
David: Is Jesus
Seth: ... Jesus.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Is Jesus' name.
David: Yep.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I thought that was fun. I was like-
David: Love it
Seth: ... Jesus, God save- Oh, man, that's Jesus. Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I thought it was fun.
David: So you could al- so-
Seth: Hoshea, Yeh- Yehoshua
David: Yehoshua.
Seth: Yehoshua.
David: Ye- Yehoshua.
Seth: Jesus.
David: Yeah. [laughs] And so, um, so Caleb tries to tell the people that they can go in, it's gonna be great, but, um, there were other people, uh, the other 11, uh, were afraid, and they thought that they couldn't go in and take the land, and so they spread a bad report, um, which i- has, like, some, some connotation in the Hebrew of, like, gossip and slander. Um, and-
Seth: So it's like, it's like a false report.
David: Yes.
Seth: So in verse 14, it says, "And all the people of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron. The whole congregation said to them, 'Would that we had died in the land of Egypt, or would that we had died in the wilderness! Why is the Lord bringing us to the land to just fall by the s- sword?'"
David: Yeah.
Seth: So this is, one, again, a question, questioning Moses' leadership, just like it wa- re- previously.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And it's also a repetition of the same complaint we see over and over again in the Book of Numbers. It was better in Egypt. It was better in Egypt. It was better in Egypt, and it's c- counted as disbelief. And so it manifests itself here then as this false report.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This bad report.
David: Yeah, the word-
Seth: This misleading report
David: ... the word in Hebrew is dibah, and, uh, everywhere else it's wr- it's, it's written, it's, like, translated, like, as a rumor or slander or gossip or whispering.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so it is, like, this secret rumor, slander that's happening among the camp. And when, and sure enough, when we find it, uh, and we hear what they've been saying, what, what the gossip train has been chugging-
Seth: Right
David: ... you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: We, we see that everything about the report, all the bad stuff, gets completely hyperbolically highlighted, and all the good stuff gets trampled on and made bad, right?
Seth: Well, there's actually no mention of good stuff in here.
David: No, yeah, well, well, it ta- talks about the land, right?
Seth: The land.
David: So the land is no longer flows with milk and honey. It says that the land devours its inhabitants.
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's, it's not a land of cattle and bees. It's a land of gaping gorges that swallow you up like the Sarlacc pit from Return of the Jedi. [laughs] That's what's happening.
Seth: It's a land of Sarlaccs. [laughs]
David: It's just a land of Sarlaccs. And then, so not only do they say the land's not good, right?
Seth: But the people aren't even-
David: But the people aren't... It's not even that they're just, like, Dane- tall Danish people.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Now he says-
Seth: They were-
David: ... they're the descendants of the Nephilim.
Seth: Which if you remember all the way back to our Genesis 6 episode-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... are, like, one of the theories that these half-demon, half, like, human hybrids that are just like...
David: Yeah, like-
Seth: Like [laughs] it's like-
David: It's like Hercules
Seth: ... Hercules, yeah. Or it's like the demonic fall, like the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... angelic fall. It's like the or- the origin of evil in the world.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: And so it's like, "It's not just giants. It's demons."
David: These are the, these are the half-men, half-god legends of old. Yeah, Hercules is in there. We can't beat him.
Seth: Right.
David: And so they're, like, lying to the people, and they're saying, like, "It's, like, there's no way we can win, uh, and we don't even want to go in because it's a terrible land." So they're just lying to everyone and trying to get them-
Seth: And that's when the people grumble and say-
David: Yes
Seth: ... "Guys, you're just trying to kill us."
David: Yep, exactly right.
Seth: And so then all the questions of Moses' leadership have already been happening.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: When they hear this false report, bad report, rumor report, they're like, "See? It confirms all of our suspicions."
David: Yep. Which is really interesting. They listen to the lie of the people over the promises and truth of God.
Seth: Right.
David: Which is, like, a really good practical life warning. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's like how often do we just be like, "I mean, it just makes sense what these people are saying versus what God has said in His Word," you know? It's like that's just-
Seth: Right
David: ... we, we very often take-
Seth: Right, and we-
David: ... man's word over God's word.
Seth: I mean, that's the whole point, part of the whole point, like, of this passage is, like, do you trust the Lord and His word?
David: Right.
Seth: Even when it doesn't look like it's true, even when you don't understand how it could possibly come about. Did Adam and Eve trust God at His word? No.
David: No.
Seth: Did Moses tru-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Did Abraham trust God at His word? No.
David: Right, with Hagar, yep.
Seth: Does the people of Israel trust God at His word? No.
David: No.
Seth: Soon, will the priest trust God at His word? No.
David: Mm.
Seth: Will Moses trust God at His word and so b- believe the promises?
David: No.
Seth: No. They always have to do more.
David: Wow.
Seth: Try to get it by their own hand or try to bail out. So here they try to bail out-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and say, like, "We're not gonna do it." And in just a second, they're gonna try to, they're gonna presume. It's like the flip side of disbelief.
David: Yep.
Seth: One type of disbelief makes you do nothing.
David: Yep.
Seth: The other type of disbelief makes you try to gain God's blessings without Him.
David: Yes.
Seth: Or you, or assume you could do it without Him.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: Yeah, unbelief
Seth: ... unbelief.
David: Unbelief.
Seth: Distrust in God's promises.
David: Okay, and so the people have refused to go in, and now God, um, comes and talks to Moses and says that he is going to punish the people. Here's what he says: "The Lord said to Moses, 'How long will this people despise me? How long will they not believe in me,'" faithlessness, "'in spite of all the signs that I've done among them? So I will strike them with pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you,' speaking to Moses, 'a nation greater and, and mightier than they.'" So God is saying, um,, "They don't believe in me, so I'm going to, uh, send a plague out that will kill them. And then not only that, I'm going to disinherit the people of Israel."
Seth: Right.
David: "No longer will they be my people."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Instead, Moses, I'm going to choose you, my one faithful person-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and out of you, I'm going to build a whole nation-
Seth: Right. And then-
David: ... that's gonna be bigger and mightier than Israel ever would've been."
Seth: And Moses responds to that by saying, "Lord, don't do that."
David: Right.
Seth: "Don't disinherit your people, because if you do, you're gonna prove the Egyptians right."
David: And the Canaanites.
Seth: "And the Canaanites right, that you just brought us out here to kill us."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Like, if you kill us now, all the grumbling that's been going on in the camp by the mixed multitude is going to come true." Well, actually, now, it used to be the mixed multitude, and now the entire camp is [laughs]
David: Yep
Seth: ... uh, all the congregation is raising a loud voice. Like, everyone, you're just gonna confirm everyone's suspicions about you, that you just brought us out here to kill us.
David: Yep. And so, yeah, he's, he's like, "This will hurt your fame among the nations." Uh, and so then Moses repeats to God the long-form name that God originally spoke to Moses in the cleft of the rock.
Seth: "You said you're slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression. So don- so be that."
David: Be that.
Seth: "Be that to me."
David: Yep. And he's, and [laughs] I think it's interesting, though, he also remembers to say all of it, and he's like-
Seth: He does
David: ... "But you also said that you will by no means clear the guilty. You visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation. But please, pardon the iniquity of this people according to the greatness of your steadfast love, just as you have forgiven this people from Egypt until now." You've been forgiving up till now.
Seth: Right.
David: Continue to be so. Um, and, like, and so let, we gotta talk about a few things here.
Seth: Yeah, there's a couple things going on.
David: What... Let's talk, let's, let's go meta first. [laughs] Um, it sounds like Moses is changing God's mind.
Seth: Yeah. I've always wondered, like, what's actually, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... what role is Moses actually really playing here?
David: Yes. Yep.
Seth: Is he actually staying God's hand?
David: Right. And G- was God actually going to disinherit Israel?
Seth: And if he wasn't, was his claim that he was going to just false?
David: Or a lie?
Seth: A lie?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Just a threat?
David: Right, an empty threat. Yeah.
Seth: So, like-
David: So, okay, so let's, let's remember, um-
Seth: I remember one time somebody asked Wayne Grudem this question.
David: Oh, yeah?
Seth: And he said, "I don't know."
David: Oh, no.
Seth: [laughs]
David: We're gonna try to answer a question that Wayne Grudem said, "I don't know," to?
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's horrible. For anyone who doesn't know, Wayne Grudem is a systematic theologian who has written the book on systematic theology. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: It's, like, one of the most used textbooks in all of seminary world. Anyway, um, so, uh, let's try to answer what Wayne Grudem decided to wisely pass on.
Seth: [laughs] Yes.
David: Um, so-
Seth: We're not that wise. [laughs]
David: This, we're not. We're fools for trying to answer. Um, so this is not the first time this has happened, right?
Seth: Right.
David: The, really, the first time this has happened was, um, back with Abraham, when God was going to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and he told, he tells Abraham, and God says, "Far be it from you, Lord, to sweep away the righteous with the wicked." And if you remember, God, he said, "If you find 50 righteous people-
Seth: Right
David: ... will you still destroy it?" And God says, "No."
Seth: He negotiates him down.
David: And he goes all the way down to if God found just 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom a- and Gomorrah, he would, he would save Sodom and Gomorrah based on the righteousness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of those 10 people. And so did-
Seth: He also did, uh, is that Exodus 32?
David: He, again, we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... again, there's a negotiation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with the golden calf.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um, well, I wanted to finish my Genesis thing.
Seth: Okay. Sorry.
David: So-
Seth: Genesis, sorry.
David: [laughs] So, uh, so, uh, what's interesting is God's promise comes true still, right? He ends up, um, punishing Sodom and Gomorrah 'cause there aren't 10 righteous people. So God's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "I mean, I'll give you this concession, Abraham, but you're wrong." [laughs]
Seth: There wasn't anybody.
David: There won't be a righteous person there.
Seth: And all the righteous people that were in the city actually escaped.
David: Actually escaped.
Seth: Right.
David: Exactly right, but there weren't 10. There was g- and, and Lot wasn't necessarily righteous. He saved Lot because of Abraham's righteousness.
Seth: Right.
David: Anyway, uh, so then-
Seth: Just like we're saved by Jesus'.
David: Yes, that's, yep.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Read the Spoken Gospel devotional. It's in there. So then with the [laughs] golden calf in Exodus 32, the same kind of thing happens. God says, "My anger's burning hot against the people. I will surely destroy them." And Moses intercedes, and so God stays his hand for a little bit, but then Moses goes down and he sees what's happening with the golden calf. He's equally enraged-
Seth: Right
David: ... and he ends up calling the Levites to his side to bring about a punishment on the people with the sword, and then after all that, God still brings another punishment through a plague on the people, just as he promised it would.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so what we're seeing here, real quickly, is that there are two sides to, um, to this, this story, that God does punish and that God does forgive, and that intercession is at the center of it, and that's kind of what Moses ha- was reminding God. "God, you are forgiving and merciful, but you also by no means will clear the guilty."
Seth: Right.
David: How can God clear the guilty and not clear the guilty? It seems like it-
Seth: Right
David: ... it doesn't make s-
Seth: How can you forgive and not clear the guilty-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... at the same time?
David: And it's like-
Seth: 'Cause you can only forgive guilty people.
David: Right.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Exactly. And so here we, we see a picture of it, right? And in all of these stories, we see a picture of it. It's that g- God allows for intercession to make a way for forgiveness for a guilty people. But not every single person is interceded for. So in this case, it's the older generation ends up receiving a curse, and they end up being punished. Uh, it starts with the 12, uh, or I guess the 11 spies-
Seth: Right. Right, right, right, right
David: ... who went in and spread the false report. They die of pestilence, just as God promised.
Seth: Right.
David: And then the whole rest of the book of Numbers is the older generation dying off in the wilderness.
Seth: Because for each year, for each day-
David: Day, yep
Seth: ... that they were in the wilderness and decide to distrust God's promise, they experience one year-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of waltoney, wandering in, in the desert.
David: Yep, until they all, until all their bodies lie dead. And then the younger generation, who has been inter- interceded for-
Seth: Right
David: ... they will come and they will inherit the Promised Land.
Seth: Okay.
David: And that's what happens at the end of Deuteronomy and j- into Joshua. The younger generation comes in.
Seth: Okay. So let's rewind all the way back to why we, uh, were asking this question.
David: Yes.
Seth: The question was-
David: Did God change his mind?
Seth: Did God change his mind? And I think what I hear you saying here is, like, that actually might be the wrong question to ask-
David: Yes, that's not the question-
Seth: ... in this moment
David: ... the text is asking.
Seth: The text, the question it's asking right now is, how does God's people get into the new Eden?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And over and over again, what we're finding is that the people are not the type of people that can get in.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: Like, right?
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like, over and o-
David: It's less about the character of God in this text and more about the character of the people.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And over and over again, we're, we're seeing that there's a pattern being set up that if they want to even make the journey to the new Eden, they have to be interceded for-
David: Yep
Seth: ... over and over-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and over again.
David: Think about Leviticus.
Seth: Think about Leviticus.
David: All the sacrifices.
Seth: Like, the people ha- don't have a character necessary to enter into the new Eden without the aid of an advocate before-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the Father and intercessor before God.
David: Right.
Seth: And Moses continue, continues to act like that while the people sin in disobedience and ultimately just distrust-
David: Right
Seth: ... gets greater and greater. So what we're really asking here is, like, did God change his mind? And so what we're saying is, like, it's not really did God change his mind, it's like, are the people changing their hearts?
David: [laughs] Yeah, and the answer is no.
Seth: Is no.
David: Right.
Seth: And actually, God is not changing his mind either-
David: No
Seth: ... because he continues to be merciful to the people and still is drawing to the, them to the new Eden, despite the fact that over and over and over again they prove that not only the laws are insufficient to save them, but Moses' intercession is unable to save them from themselves.
David: Yep.
Seth: So he continues to give mercy. He continues to say things like, "Okay, I'll give you, I'll give you the manna that you want."
David: Yep.
Seth: Moses prayed for it. "I'll give you the quail that you want. I'll give you the water that you want."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then he'll start punishing at the same time.
David: Yep.
Seth: Say, "Okay, this, these people have proven their distrust to such an extent that they must pass away, but there are some of you still who are faithful."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And here what God says is, "Actually, there's no one faithful left in the camp."
David: [laughs] Right. Not even Moses.
Seth: Yeah, well, he says, he says, "Moses, I'm gonna wipe out everybody except you."
David: Oh, except you. Yeah.
Seth: So he's, so God's response is, "I will continue to be faithful to my people, but my people are one."
David: Yeah.
Seth: You.
David: Yeah. The one faithful person I can find.
Seth: Right. You and Joshua and Caleb and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Aaron.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, that's it.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, you got four left.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: It's like, that, that's it.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then Moses comes back and says, "No, don't do that. You will be seen by others to be unfaithful."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So that's actually apologetic. Like, it's an apologetics-
David: Yep
Seth: ... move on the part of Abraham. He's saying, like-
David: Or Moses.
Seth: Or Moses, sorry.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, "Don't give them an opportunity to malign you."
David: Right.
Seth: "Show them that you actually do continue your promises-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "by saving them-"
David: Right
Seth: ... "and judging them at the same time."
David: Right.
Seth: So G- he's kinda asking God for the impossible.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then God does it. He says, "Okay. The generation that is morally understands what they're doing, they will pass away in the, the wilderness."
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Those that are younger will see my land-"
David: Right
Seth: ... "and will s- repeat the process of intercession and sacrifice once we get there."
David: Mm-hmm. And, and that's what God promised would happen in the-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the very beginning. He, He was like, "I'm going to disinherit and punish, but I'm also going to save." And that's what ends up happening.
Seth: Right.
David: So God's not changing his mind.
Seth: Right.
David: Moses, what, what, what... In all these s- in all these dialogues that either Abraham or Moses or, or whome- whomever have with God, what the human character gets to do is be the mouthpiece, um, of God's mercy. And, like, and-
Seth: So you're saying, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Moses is repeating back who God already is.
David: Right.
Seth: And what God is... So we were kinda saying, like, it's, how do you, how can you be guilty?
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: How can God, like, punish the guilty, but also pardon the guilty at the same time? Like, how can you do that?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, like, for us, there's a tension there, and then when God speaks one side of the equation, Moses speaks the other.
David: That's right.
Seth: It's like, God says, "I must punish the guilty."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And then Moses says, "No, you must protect the guilty."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You must pardon the guilty."
David: Right.
Seth: And then it's like, it seems they're at loggerheads, but really they're just speaking out of both sides of God's mouth-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in the best possible way. [laughs]
David: In the best possible way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, 'cause that, God does both.
Seth: Right.
David: God must always, forever punish the guilty, but God also, in his grace and mercy, provides intercession for people so that they will not be punished.
Seth: And so the Book of Numbers is telling us the way that God punishes the guilty and God pardons the guilty is through intercession.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's through prayer, and so that's what we're seeing over and over and over again. The only way that when a holy God confronts sin, the only way that that stops-
David: Is through it, yep
Seth: ... at any point-
David: Is through intercession
Seth: ... is through intercession.
David: Right.
Seth: Somebody standing between-
David: In between
Seth: ... and saying, "Please, Lord-
David: Yep
Seth: ... stay true to your promises."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Stay true to your promises. Stay true to your promises." And that's Moses in this.
David: Yep, but then he ultimately fails to do this, and, I mean, and we'll jump ahead, and he, he, even he doesn't get to intercede for himself and go into the Promised Land. And so we have to see that in Jesus, though, we have a new and better intercessor who never fails to intercede for us before the Father, and he is constantly there, um, making intercession for us, pleading with God to not give us what we deserve.
Seth: Because h- the punishment-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... has already been paid.
David: That's right.
Seth: So in this situation, it's like the people have done something wrong, and the punishment hasn't been d-
David: Right
Seth: ... dealt yet.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the mercy hasn't come yet, right?
David: Yep. And so it seems like-
Seth: But in Jesus-
David: Yeah, so it seems like there's this tension and dichotomy.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep.
Seth: But in Jesus, there's never tension-
David: Right
Seth: ... because God's, um, holiness-
David: Yep
Seth: ... has responded to sin in Jesus-
David: That's right
Seth: ... fully and finally.
David: Yep.
Seth: So there's no tension between God pardoning the guilty-
David: Right
Seth: ... and punishing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the guilt-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because it's already taken care of.
David: Right.
Seth: So Jesus continues-
David: Mm
Seth: ... does that for us.
David: That's really good. Yeah.
Seth: And then the Holy Spirit does it in us.
David: In us.
Seth: Because I think the other side of that, so there's this objective sense, like, God does it on the outside.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's paid for.
David: Right.
Seth: There's also the other sense, like, we're still not the people- That Israel demands-
David: Right
Seth: ... that we be.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think it's fascinating that throughout this narrative, that Caleb is said to have a different spirit-
David: Yeah, it's so, such a strange little phrase
Seth: ... than the rest of everybody else. But it goes back to what we just saw in when the Spirit falls on the elders-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and Moses is crying out for a different type of people.
David: Mm-hmm. That would, I wish everybody would just prophesy and be filled with God's Spirit.
Seth: Right. We need a ho- we need to be people filled with the Holy Spirit-
David: Yep
Seth: ... if we are to, one, experience the trust, if we're to actually-
David: Yep
Seth: ... trust the Lord.
David: Yep.
Seth: But two, to actually experience the knowledge that we are advocated for.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: 'Cause that's the other side of it, like, we're not certain that God actually loves us-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that God is actually for us-
David: Yeah, we're always doubting that
Seth: ... that our guilt is actually been paid for.
David: Right.
Seth: And so the Holy Spirit not only convinces us to trust the Lord-
David: Right
Seth: ... but also convinces us that the Lord is for us.
David: Yeah. It's so true, and I love that we get to see here, um, the insufficiency of Moses' intercession because Moses intercedes for the people, and yet what happens right after it, yes, the promise extends to the younger generation, but-
Seth: But not everybody escapes the punishment
David: ... that's right. That's right. The older generation ends up dying in the wilderness. The 11 spies end up dying on the spot. And, like, that, that is a different kind of intercession that Jesus makes. When Jesus makes intercession, there's no remainder for the people for whom he's interceding. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Like, he takes care of all of the punishment, all of the wrath. There's nothing left over.
Seth: And he makes everyone filled with the Spirit.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Everyone has a different spirit. They're all... And they don't do what Israel does. Israel's about to presume upon their ability to grab God's pro- promise for themselves-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and enter into the promised land. God says, "Okay, we're done. You're punished. Leave. Go back into the wilderness." And what does everybody do? They try to take the land for themselves.
David: Oh, right. Yeah.
Seth: Right. Like, they try to take the land for themselves without God, and then God, and then they die in the battle-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because God is not with them.
David: Right. Yeah, they, yeah, they pres- they're like, I love it. It's so funny. They're like, "Okay, we're gonna be punished because we didn't enter the land. Uh, that's scary, and we just saw the 11 spies die. Okay, God, never mind. We can fix this."
Seth: Right.
David: "We can fix this. Let's go, guys. Let's get a, let's get a troop together."
Seth: Which just proves they don't understand what's happening.
David: No.
Seth: The point is unbelief.
David: Not, yeah.
Seth: You don't believe God will keep, keep his word.
David: Right.
Seth: And he said he was going to get you into the promised land.
David: Yep.
Seth: And you didn't believe that.
David: Right.
Seth: Then he said he was gonna punish you, and you don't believe that. [laughs]
David: Nope.
Seth: So you're gonna go into the promised land anyway.
David: That's so true, and I just, I think it's such a vision of legalism in this, in this passage.
Seth: Oh.
David: Right? Where it's like, "Okay, so I'm gonna be punished by God unless I do, because I didn't do what he told me to do."
Seth: Right.
David: "And so how, what's the remedy for that? Let me just do what he told me to do-
Seth: Right
David: ... in my own power, you know, like, without him being with me. And so I'm gonna follow all the rules. I'm gonna do the right thing. I'm gonna make it right."
Seth: Right.
David: "I'm gonna make this relationship right."
Seth: But without the different spirit.
David: But without a different spirit, and, and all that ends up bringing is death. They die in Canaan.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They, it, it ends up being part of their punishment. Their, their obedience, their pseudo-obedience to God ends up being their punishment.
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, that's the life we live when we try to, um, [laughs] when we try to be in a right relationship with God and absolve ourselves of guilt by doing good works.
Seth: Apart from his-
David: Apart from his Spirit.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like we have to get the relationship with God right first, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he, he's not asking for actions first and foremost.
Seth: Exactly.
David: He's asking for faith.
Seth: Trust.
David: Trust. And so for us today, this is a huge lesson that the very first thing we need to do in our relationship with God is have faith, is-
Seth: Do you trust him-
David: ... do you trust him to be true to his promises?
Seth: Yeah. Do you believe that all the promises of God are yes and amen in Jesus Christ?
David: Right.
Seth: Yes and so be it.
David: Yep.
Seth: Do you believe that God is before you, Jesus is before you, convincing the Lord that the punishment has been paid for and that you should receive only mercy?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Are you convinced that God actually loves you and has good intentions for you and that his commands are for your benefit? If you don't trust God at that word, you do not have the different spirit.
David: And all the obedience in the world will end up only being death to you.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Like, golly.
Seth: I would rather you just know that-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and then just live a life of eating and drinking-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because tomorrow you will die-
David: Yep
Seth: ... than try to pretend to be religious-
David: Yep
Seth: ... thinking that's somehow better.
David: Yep. No, it's absolutely right. [gentle music]
Seth: So what we're saying is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the entire Bible, in one sense, is leading up to the borders of Canaan.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Like, the-
David: Right, so far, the whole Torah, yep
Seth: ... so the, we left the Garden of Eden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and we're trying to get back to it, and right now, we get to the very edge of it-
David: Right
Seth: ... and we're asked the same question Adam and Eve were asked in the Garden of Eden: Will you trust-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... me at my word?
David: Right, yes. [laughs]
Seth: This is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... asked again to a new generation.
David: Definitely.
Seth: And they reject it.
David: Right.
Seth: They reject Canaan.
David: Yep. They reject God.
Seth: They reject God.
David: Yeah, they reject his word.
Seth: And so what happen, and so this, so this is the pattern of the whole Old Testament.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's the same pattern in Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus comes as the new Adam-
David: Yeah, the fulfillment-
Seth: ... God himself
David: ... the fulfillment of the whole Old Testament.
Seth: He tells everyone that he's bringing a new kingdom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a new Eden, a new, um, garden.
David: Right.
Seth: And what do people do?
David: They reject him.
Seth: They reject him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're offered the same choice. Do you trust me-
David: Right
Seth: ... at my word when I say that I am bringing a new kingdom, that I am the Son of God? And they say, "No."
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: Which is, I think the author of Hebrews picks up on this, right?
David: He does, yeah. It's really, it's crazy. I love whenever the New Testament does basically what we do on this podcast. [laughs] The, the passages-
Seth: Surprisingly, we got our idea-
David: Passages, yeah
Seth: ... from the Bible. [laughs]
David: Passages like this are, like, the foundation for how we interpret scripture, um, because he says that the disobedience, this is Hebrews 3 and 4, uh, the author of Hebrews-
Seth: Chapter 3, 3 and 4? Or the whole chapter.
David: Uh, sorry, Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.
Seth: Oh, okay, both.
David: Yeah, it's a long argument that he plays out, and so we can't get into all of it. Um, but basically what he says is the disobedience and the lack of faith and the hard heart that Israel had at the border of Canaan that made them not enter into their rest in Canaan is the same decision we have today, and he's making the same leap that we're making. He's saying that there is a rest that remains in Jesus today. There's a Sabbath rest, there's a l- there's a Garden of Eden. That-
Seth: There's a new Canaan rest
David: ... that's right, that, that waits for us today. And so he says, "Don't do what Israel did when, whenever they, um, grew hard-hearted and didn't have faith." He's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "Don't do that." And, and he's not talking about any kind of action here. He's talking about, just don't lose your faith. [laughs]
Seth: Trust the Lord-
David: Don't-
Seth: ... at His word
David: ... yeah, don't lose your trust. And so he says that, "A Sabbath rest remains for the people of God, for whoever has entered into God's rest has also rested from his work as God did from His." And so he's saying that, like, Jesus has done everything. He is, He's completed all the work, and there is a rest in the land for you. And what I need you to do, guys, is believe it, trust in it that there's a rest that Jesus has earned for you, and, like, don't lose heart.
Seth: Right.
David: And that's all he's saying, is like, Canaan is before you.
Seth: You will assume that the way to enter into the rest is to work for it.
David: Exactly right.
Seth: You're going to assume-
David: You're going to, you're gonna go and then-
Seth: ... that it need, there needs to be five days of work in order to get two days of weekend rest.
David: Oh, [laughs] right, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Right, like you assume that you need to earn-
David: Right
Seth: ... your vacation.
David: Yeah, you need to go and take the land by your own strength.
Seth: But the message of the Bible is that the Lord fights for you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And if you trust Him to do so, all your enemies will be scattered, the land will flow with milk and honey, and you will have rest.
David: Yeah. And I love that, like, the, the, [laughs] the means by which we are to keep our hearts from hardening, and the way that we keep our faith spurred up, right after he, he says this, that what I just read about the Sabbath rest, verse 11, "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest," right?
Seth: Strive.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the, there's no more work to do, but let's work to enter it. It's like, wait, what? And here's how. Listen to this. "Let us strive to enter that rest so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience" that Israel did, okay? And here's how, "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing the division of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and the intentions of the heart. No creature is hidden from His sight. All are naked and exposed before His eyes, before whom we must give an account."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, how do we spur our hearts along to not become hard?
Seth: Trust God. At His word. [laughs]
David: At His word. Like, like, do what we're doing right now. Rehearse the story of the Bible. Like, he's saying-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, the word of God, the scriptures that he is referring to and showing us Jesus in-
Seth: Right
David: ... is a sword that will pierce your heart.
Seth: Right.
David: And so, like-
Seth: It's crazy
David: ... reflect on the disobedience that we see here and let it correct you.
Seth: I've never thought about this passage in connection. I've always, I hear this passage all the time.
David: Oh, definitely.
Seth: But I f- I forget that it's in this narrative-
David: It is
Seth: ... about Israel dying by the sword-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and us being, the two-edged sword-
David: [laughs] Yep
Seth: ... that's sharper and more powerful is actually the word of the Lord-
David: Yep
Seth: ... on our hearts.
David: And, and, like, we can't escape from them. We're all naked and exposed. We're gonna have to give an account before God. And so the s- the sword of God's word is going to come to us one way or the other.
Seth: Right.
David: It's going to come to us as condemnation, and it's going to punish us and be our death like it was in, in, in-
Seth: Right
David: ... Exodus 32, or it's gonna change our hearts-
Seth: Right
David: ... and b- make us the people who can enter the land.
Seth: Right. And just think about when trust is the bedrock of the relationship. It fundamentally changes what obedience looks like.
David: Oh, definitely.
Seth: So I was, so I, I've been studying Hosea.
David: Oh, right, yep.
Seth: And so Hosea kinda re-imagines Mount Sinai and the giving of the Ten Commandments like a wedding day.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so he essentially says that the, the Ten Commandments are actually the 10 vows of Israel.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So, like, on a wedding day, like, he's like, "These are," God says, "I'll protect you. I'll provide a new land for you. I'll love you."
David: Yep.
Seth: "I'll rescue you." And Israel responds by saying, "I promise-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that you'll be my only God. I promise that there will be nobody else for me."
David: Yep.
Seth: "I promise to be faithful to you in my money and in my-
David: Mm
Seth: ... relationships." Like, it's wedding vows.
David: Yeah, wedding vows.
Seth: And I don't normally talk about this with, like, I don't normally talk about obeying my wife.
David: Oh, yep.
Seth: But, like, I'm obeying my marriage vows to her all the time.
David: Oh, true, yeah.
Seth: But I love it.
David: Right.
Seth: Because my heart is for her.
David: Yeah.
Seth: My marriage vows are vows.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they're not-
David: They're laws
Seth: ... they're laws.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I keep them with joy.
David: Yes.
Seth: So when what we're talking about here is that the Lord cha- fundamentally, when we trust Him at His word-
David: That His work, that the work is done, that He's done it for us
Seth: ... His word and His laws are actually a joy for us to keep.
David: Yes.
Seth: In the same way it's a joy for me to keep the wedding vows I've made to my wife.
David: Yeah. That's beautiful. I really like that. [gentle music]
Seth: Speaking of laws. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: The very next thing that happens is a list of seven laws.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, so as we've said before, the idea is that people disobey, and new laws are added after that to address what just happened.
David: Right.
Seth: And so the, the really easy way to read this is, like, some of them are new laws. Some of them are old laws re-imagined.
David: Yep.
Seth: But there's seven, and they lead up to a story. So the seventh law, so there's six laws, the seventh law is the sto- is a law against high-handed or, like, defiant sin.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's what did Israel just do at the border of Canaan.
David: A very high-handed sin.
Seth: A very high-handed-
David: They knew what was required of them, and they said, "Mm, better not."
Seth: Twice.
David: Twice. [laughs]
Seth: So it's like, okay, here's all the laws. The hi- the, the climax of the seven laws is a high-handed sin.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then you have a story of a man picking up sticks on the Sabbath.
David: Right.
Seth: And we know that work is already disallowed on the Sabbath by reading Leviticus, but, like, picking up sticks, is that work? We don't really know.
David: Right. And what were the sticks for is debated.
Seth: And so, like, Moses goes and asks God, like, "What should we do with this man?" And God says, "Kill him."
David: Yep.
Seth: "Stone him."
David: Right.
Seth: Which is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
David: [laughs]
Seth: What? But apparently, whatever he was doing constituted a high-handed sin.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it was a violation of God's commands, just like entering into the Sabbath rest was also a violation of the command. So you should be seeing, like, high-handed sin connected to the Sabbath with the man and the sticks.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: High-handed sin entering into Canaan, high-handed sin not entering the Sabbath rest. Like, these things are parallel to one another.
David: Exactly. Yep.
Seth: The point is, if you- The point is, do not commit high-handed sins
David: Right, which a high-handed sin is knowing what you ought not to do and doing it anyway
Seth: Like, like defiant.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: Yep. I know this is wrong-
Seth: Purposeful
David: ... and I'm going to do the opposite
Seth: Intentional.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so there's this microcosm, like the Lord says, "Never commit a high-handed sin." Even a- among picking up sticks. You've done it on a much grander scale. Here's it in-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the smaller scale. So that's what the laws are doing. That's what's happening right here.
David: Yeah, and there's something far more positive happening, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that God is saying things like, "When you enter the land, here's how to offer your, your, like, first fruits of your harvest to me."
Seth: It's like he's promising, you'll go back there one day.
David: You're going back. So he's promising not, not only the new generation will enter the land, like I promised, but there's gonna be harvests, and you're gonna have so much that you can offer these first fruit sacrifices without it hurting you.
Seth: It is funny, like right after the af- right after the judgment, he says, "Okay, here's some laws for 40 years from now."
David: Yep.
Seth: So it is hopeful.
David: It's very hopeful.
Seth: But it's also reminding them, do not repeat the same mistakes-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... once you get there.
David: Right.
Seth: You're gonna forget-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that you committed a high-handed sin and did not enter into the rest. So my last law to you here is do not commit a high-handed sin on the day of rest.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: Do not do that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Please do not. And then, at the very end, there's a law about tassels-
David: Yes
Seth: ... which is so fascinating, and it's this idea that you make these tassels on your hats and the corner of your garments.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the idea is every time you see it, you're reminded of God's law.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so the, the, the, and they kind of represent everything that's happening right now. The tassels are reminders of God's law, just as these laws are reminders of God's character and nature.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like this is what you are like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... this is what I am like, so let's put that before you every time you walk around. Every time you put on your clothes, every time you put on your shirt, every time you see somebody else's shirt, you're reminded, God has commanded things for us to enter into his rest.
David: Yep, and, like, in, in, uh, in this set of laws with about the tassels, in 15:39, it says, uh, "Have these there so you don't go astray, so that you will not, um, follow the lust of your own heart and your own eyes." And these are the same Hebrew terms used in the spy narrative.
Seth: Oh.
David: So it says, to go spy out the land is the same word, so you don't spy out your own heart.
Seth: Interesting.
David: And then the same word for, um, uh, so you, so you don't whore after their gods is so you don't follow after your own eyes.
Seth: Hmm.
David: It's the same words. So he's saying, "Don't let what you did in Canaan happen internally in your own heart."
Seth: How will, how will you prevent the same thing happening?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: By keeping the law before you.
David: Right.
Seth: By keeping the law before you. How do you prevent this type of disobedience? Keep the law before you, which is exactly what Paul says in Galatians 3:19.
David: Hmm.
Seth: He says, "The reason the law was added was because of transgressions." [laughs]
David: Hmm.
Seth: So, like, you have a transgression-
David: Right
Seth: ... and then the law was added-
David: Right
Seth: ... to stop that transgression. But he says, "It was not until the seed comes that transgressions are paid for-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the law actually does its work."
David: It can actually come into your heart.
Seth: The law is not just on the outside, remind- like reminders on the outside.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's an internal reminder, the Holy Spirit, reminding you constantly of the Lord, his character, and who you are.
David: Blue tassels on your heart. [laughs]
Seth: Blue tassels on my heart. [laughs] Band name. Call it.
David: Band name. [laughs] Um, there's also a lot of really interesting, like, um, reversal happening in 14 and 15 that I just wanna point out-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause I think it's, it's literarily beautiful, and it also just shows how God, God's, um, punishment and correction and commands are always appropriate and proportionate.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so you think about what Israel complained about, right? They said, "Oh, that we would have died in the wilderness," right? And, and, and he, they say, like, "Now we, now we're, we're gonna die out here, and our children are gonna die, and they're not gonna be able to enter the wilderness," and all this stuff. And, um, and God ends up giving them, in hi- in their punishment, what they were grumbling about. He said, "Oh, you wish you would've died in the wilderness instead of entering Canaan? Great, here you go."
Seth: Right.
David: "You can die in the wilderness." And, "Oh, you thought your kids were gonna die in the wilderness? Actually, it's your kids that I'm gonna let into the promised land."
Seth: Well, a- answer me a question here, though.
David: Yep.
Seth: So when Moses repeats the name of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... he says, "I will surely not pardon the guilty, even to the third and fourth generations."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So we just said, back in the last section, that God's not doing two different things.
David: Right.
Seth: He's doing one thing.
David: Yep.
Seth: But he literally did two different things.
David: Yep.
Seth: He, his name is that he won't pardon the third and fourth gener- second, third, and fourth generation, but here he does.
David: Yep.
Seth: S- so let's-
David: Yeah, it's 'cause we're not talking about numbers. We're talking... So you have to take the whole name of God together. He says that he forgives to a thousand generations but will not pardon to the third and fourth. So it's a, it's a measure of degree. He's saying that his forgiveness is a thousand times greater than his punishment.
Seth: Hmm.
David: He's say- so he's saying... So it, it's not saying, like, "Once we hit the fourth generation, then I'll start forgiving for a thousand," or something like that.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: It's not numerical.
Seth: Right.
David: This is, uh, this is a comparative statement. He's saying, "I'm a thousand times forgiving and three times punishing."
Seth: Hmm.
David: "And so, yeah, my punishment is serious. It's three, four times serious. But man, my grace is so much better. It's a thousand times serious." And, like, so that's what he's saying.
Seth: Right.
David: Um, that, so it's not that, like, oh, well, Israel's children were supposed to be punished, 'cause that's the first generation after them.
Seth: Right.
David: We got, we got two or three more generations-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... of punishment coming. No. [laughs] God is a thousand times more gracious than he is punishing, but that doesn't mean his punishment goes away entirely.
Seth: Right.
David: He still-
Seth: He still punishes the guilty
David: ... he still punishes the guilty.
Seth: He still als- he also pardons the guilty as well.
David: Mm-hmm, yep. And then here in, in, in Numbers 15, we see some, uh, some echoes of what's gone before, just like we did with the, uh, the, the equal and appropriate punishment. Um, so in Numbers 15, we have rules given not only for, um, an Israelite citizen to make sacrifices-
Seth: Right
David: ... but also for the aliens.
Seth: Right, and they're what, we know that part of the reason everyone's grumbling is because of the aliens.
David: That's right.
Seth: The, the, well, the-
David: The rabble from 11:4
Seth: ... rabble. Yeah, yeah.
David: So the rabble, the non-Israelite rabble from 11:4, and then the Cushite w- uh, Cushite wife of Moses we talked about from 12:1.
Seth: Right.
David: They're now included. In able to being, able to make sacrifices at the temple.
Seth: Right.
David: They're brought into the core of Israel's worship.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You wanna talk about grace in this moment, here it is. Not only are the Israelites allowed to come into the center of God's worship, approach the temple, and make-
Seth: Right
David: ... sacrifices, now aliens are allowed to come in.
Seth: Right.
David: Foreigners. Which is a picture of the go- gospel, uh, going out to all nations that, that Moses-
Seth: When Jesus, the intercessor-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... intercedes after judgment, women and Gentiles-
David: Yep
Seth: ... worship the living God.
David: Exactly. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah. And then, um, he talks about these will be, uh, these will be a blessing to you and a commandment to you throughout your generations. So y- we were j- we were just talking about generations, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And this is a picture of his forgiveness going forward, that, um, he does condemn the guilty for three and four generations, but shows compassion to 1,000. Um, the older generation, yes, will die in the wilderness, but God will show compassion throughout Israel's generations. He will not give up on them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Just like he didn't give up on them here. And then, um, he says, uh, he talks, as he's talking about some of the offerings, you see a lot about the fire of the Lord coming out.
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: And, uh, it's an offering to the fire of the Lord. This is a, is a reversal of what happened in Numbers 11:2-3, when the fire of the Lord burned up the rebels from the rabble, is instead of-
Seth: Right
David: ... God's fire going out and killing people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... now he says, "In the sacrifices, my fire's gonna go out and consume it instead." So I mean, chapter 15 is full of hope and promises-
Seth: Right
David: ... and goodness. And then finally, um, uh, chapter 15 again, and again, and again, will talk about sacrifices being a pleasing odor to the Lord.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? Which, um, Numbers, uh, 11, uh, 10, and 12, they all talk about the anger of the Lord, um, when that happens, when God gets angry, his nostrils open up in anger.
Seth: Yeah. Blaze hotly.
David: And he's, th- yeah, and he's smelling the, the, the wrath that's coming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's good, 'cause he's holy.
Seth: Right.
David: And he's doing the right thing, but now it's the offerings that are providing that aroma.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, and so when we get to the New Testament, we see that Jesus is the pleasing aroma before the Lord.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, that, 'cause he is the one who's like the offering that bore our wrath. So anyway, it's just interesting how Numbers 15, which is this seemingly random collection of laws just plopped down in here, is pulling on so much of the rest of Numbers, um, and it's here very intentionally, and, and like, it's crafted very, um-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... perfectly. So anyway-
Seth: And which makes sense, like you said, like we have here not just the response to their punishment in the laws-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but also hope.
David: Hope.
Seth: Which is why Paul, when he said in Galatians 3:19, can you pull that, the full verse up?
David: Yep, mm-hmm.
Seth: He says, like, "These laws were added for transgressions until..." I, I don't know the rest.
David: Yeah, so why then the law? Why is, why is this here in, in Numbers 15, for instance?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It was added because of sin.
Seth: Right.
David: Because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise has been made. He's talking about Jesus.
Seth: Right.
David: He is the offspring, the promised seed from Adam and Eve, and it was put in place, the law, the law was put in place-
Seth: And even just-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the offspring of Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the next generation. He is the next generation who will enter into the promised land.
David: For us.
Seth: For us, right.
David: And be our-
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh, the law was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Seth: He's talking about Mount S-
David: So he's talking about Moses and Mount Sinai and all that stuff that occurred. Um, and, uh, now an intermediary employ- im- implies more than one, but God is one. I don't, uh, we're off topic now with that. [laughs]
Seth: Well, what he's saying, like, you need an intercessor.
David: An intercessor, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: You need an intercessor.
David: I guess we're not off topic.
Seth: It's like the, the law was for transgressions.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Was put in place because of transgressions.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: But once Jesus comes as the final descendant of Israel, he acts as the better intercessor.
David: The better intermediary.
Seth: The better intermediary-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who can forgive the entire nation-
David: Right. And why-
Seth: ... and bring them in
David: ... and why can he do it? It's what-
Seth: Because he's one God.
David: Because he's God.
Seth: Because-
David: Our mediar- our medi- intermediary is God himself.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he takes on all the punishment of guilt-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so that he can extend all the pardon of his mercy.
David: That's amazing. So, um, I guess if we were to, to end this episode rightly-
Seth: Mm
David: ... we would say, um, do not, uh, let your heart be hardened toward trusting God.
Seth: Right.
David: Jesus has done all the work for you. He has opened up the way into a new and better promised land. Put your trust in him.
Seth: He's interceding for you.
David: He's interceding for you perfectly. The land is yours. Go take it.
Seth: Right.
David: There's not-
Seth: You do not have to be worried
David: ... there's, you don't have to worry-
Seth: That there's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... punishment coming for you.
David: Right.
Seth: Because it's already been-
David: Yep
Seth: ... paid.
David: Yeah. And there's no, there's no giant in the land. There's no death before you, no trial that you could face that Jesus is not taking care of. Like, not saying that your life will be perfect-
Seth: But the giants of sin and death-
David: ... but they will not get victory over you
Seth: ... the Nephilim of our life-
David: The Nephilim of our lives
Seth: ... are, uh, they're gone.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They cannot stand.
David: It's beautiful. So have faith. Enter the land. So like, this is, and the land will be for us, and what Hebrews was talking about when it's pulling on this story, is when we go before Jesus, like either when we die or he returns, that we must keep our faith until that day.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, um, and so I mean, my plea for anyone listening is don't lose heart. Don't lose faith. Trust that the work is done, and enter the Sabbath rest earned by Jesus. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
