Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, hey there, everyone. Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Indeed.
David: In- indeed.
Seth: Indeed.
David: Indubitably, which is just a fun word to say.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: I don't, I don't... It's not... It's only one of those words I use after somebody says indeed.
David: Oh, of course.
Seth: You don't start with indubitably.
David: [laughs]
Seth: You, you [laughs] it's a f- it's a, it's an ironic follow-up.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's the only-
David: It's the only thing that that is used for
Seth: ... or unless you're playing Sherlock Holmes.
David: That's right, yes.
Seth: These are the two.
David: Elementary, dear Watson. Indubitably, Watson.
Seth: So it's-
David: Yeah, that's it
Seth: ... it's either sarcasm-
David: Yep, or you are Sherlock Holmes.
Seth: That's, that's it. [laughs]
David: That's the only-
Seth: Welcome-
David: Welcome to the numbers-
Seth: To numbers
David: ... the numbers. [laughs]
Seth: Chapter seven.
David: Yeah, so we, uh, last time we talked about the ritual purity in the camp, maintaining it. Uh, you, if you'll remember, uh, Israel as is at Mount Sinai. They are about to set out to the land of Canaan. Um, God is, is there with them and wants to make sure that they maintain purity being close to him.
Seth: Right.
David: So we talked about, like, what happens when they move the tent-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and wh- uh, what happens whenever sin is committed in the camp, whether confessed or unconfessed.
Seth: How does God act as the divine judge and lawgiver-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in this new Eden?
David: Right, and then we talked about, like, there's God in the tabernacle, and you wanna ask him of something. You wanna take a really extreme vow. You could take the Nazarite vow. We talked about that. And now, uh, and, and then we got the priestly benediction at the end.
Seth: Which ends with peace.
David: Yes. "May the Lord bless you and keep you, make his face shine upon you, give you peace," all this stuff. And then basically, then they set out.
Seth: Right.
David: But before they do, we have chapter seven to nine, which is an, an interlude, and it's a flashback.
Seth: Flash-
David: So you know those times in movies-
Seth: Right
David: ... where it's like the, the color scheme is a little different, and there's like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... uh, or like in Wayne's World, when they're like [sings].
Seth: [laughs] I do not watch Wayne's World.
David: No?
Seth: No.
David: Anyway, that's how they, that's how they initiate f- like, transitions and stuff in Wayne's World.
Seth: That's funny.
David: Anyway, uh, this is a flashback.
Seth: It is.
David: And we go back to Exodus 40, right before God fills the tabernacle with his presence-
Seth: Right
David: ... and Moses can't get in.
Seth: So think about that. They're on their way to the new Eden, and this is where they will live forever in God's presence, and they're flashing back to when God gave his law and his presence landed for the first time in the tabernacle.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like they should feel parallel to you. God's presence will dwell in the land. His presence will dwell in the tabernacle.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And in both situations, it's being preceded by perfect obedience.
David: Yes.
Seth: In Exodus, they perfectly executed the plans for the tabernacle, and once they had obeyed, and it was really long, and they give you the commands for the tabernacle twice.
David: Twice.
Seth: Because they wanna show you in precise detail that Israel obeyed, and here again, we see it all again to prove the exact point that the people of God are obeying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So much so that the author in these, in these chapter, in this chapter, chapter seven, will say it seven times.
David: Yep, the people obeyed.
Seth: The people obeyed.
David: Right.
Seth: And that should be significant because it's a week of creation-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and they're going into the new Eden.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: Like, this is, it's... [laughs] We wanna make the point clear.
David: They're perfectly going into new creation, yeah. They're perfectly obeying. A- a- and, and, and this should feel, um, maybe painfully familiar to the end of Exodus, where you're like, "This is hard to read. This is repetitive."
Seth: Yes.
David: "This feels like I've read this before." This is 89 verses, um, of repeating the same set of sacrifices 12 times.
Seth: With just a different first sentence.
David: Yes, and so it's just like-
Seth: So how, what's-
David: ... it's so repetitive
Seth: ... so as a, as a, as a, as a man who says he's a Christian-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... who is a Christian-
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's hearsay.
Seth: Alleged Christian, David Boden.
David: I was confident in my salvation. I didn't know you were unconfident in my salvation, but keep going.
Seth: Whenever I come to something like this, and it's like, "Okay, he offered his offering, one silver plate whose weight was 130 shekels, one silver basin, 70 shekels, according to the shekel"
David: Seth, wake up. Seth, wake up.
Seth: I was like-
David: Wake up.
Seth: [laughs] Like, and then I have to read that 12 times.
David: Yep.
Seth: Here, you know what I do?
David: You just, I skim it.
Seth: I read the first one.
David: And then I just-
Seth: And then I just read the first line-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of all the other ones.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's all I do.
David: I do the same thing.
Seth: So this is, not that you need our permission-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... but I have felt guilty for not reading every word with the same amount of attention.
David: And interest.
Seth: And interest, and this is why I fail to read the Bible because I can't [laughs] get, like, past this hang-up. Like, this, this part of the book-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is not meant to be read. You're not meant to read it 12 times, um, and-
David: And every time, you're like, "[gasps] Another one. What's gonna happen?"
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's meant to show you that people are obeying.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, think about it like this. It's like if you run a warehouse.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Um, you, maybe you have a conver- maybe you work at a, in a, in a warehouse, and you have a conversation with a coworker about what you did that weekend. That's a really important and interesting conversation. But the, the thing you do while you're having that conversation or something is you have a clipboard, and on the clipboard is an inventory sheet of everything that's in the warehouse.
Seth: Right.
David: And you're walking around, having a conversation with your friend about what you did on the weekend, and you're referencing the inventory sheet, checking stuff off, making sure it's all there. Both types of, of, o- o- like, both genres of words are important.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Right?
Seth: Genres of words. [laughs]
David: But, like, they, like, you treat them differently.
Seth: This isn't a conversation God's having-
David: No
Seth: ... with the reader.
David: This is inventory.
Seth: This is an inventory-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of Israel's obedience.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, the point that's being made is really interesting. Uh, it's just being made in kind of, at least for, especially for Westerners-
Seth: In my-
David: ... in a very uninteresting way. [laughs]
Seth: In my Bible, it's literally one, two, three, four, five
David: Six pages of repetition
Seth: Six pages of repetition.
David: Yeah. It's a lot. And, and so, and the point is that, uh, uh, what we said, is Israel is obeying. And so what they're doing is, uh, each tribe is coming, uh, with a tribal leader, and they're coming and making a sacrifice. They're, they're, they're bringing some plates and bowls and stuff, and then they are making three very specific offerings. Basically, the big three animal sacrifices from the opening of Leviticus. They're making the whole burnt offering, they are making the peace or fellowship offering, and they're making the sin offering.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, um, and so, like, we should, we should be like, "Oh, they're obeying Leviticus one to five."
Seth: And as the leaders of their tribe, they are representing-
David: That's right
Seth: ... their whole tribe-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and ma- helping make atonement for the entire tribe. They're, they're acting as a mediator between the priest-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who's acting as a mediator between God's presence and their entire tribe, because it's impossible to have m- thousands of people come to the temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... at some po- at, at one particular point-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in time.
David: Yeah, and so what they're doing is they are, they're basically saying... God has, i- in this flashback, God's not yet filled the tabernacle, right? It's just an empty tent. And so they are obeying, and they're coming and making atonement for all of Israel.
Seth: All of Israel's sins.
David: They're cleaning everyone up, right?
Seth: So that God can come.
David: So that God can come.
Seth: Right.
David: Right. And so it's really important is, like, we, we've said over and over and aga- again as we've looked at these texts in Leviticus and, and in Exodus even, and now in, in Numbers, that God and sin don't coexist. And so in order for God's presence to come, there has to be atonement for sin made for the people.
Seth: Right.
David: And so he's cleaning it up. I mean, this does link us back to what we just looked at last week. If God is concerned with the ritual purity of his people and the cleanliness of the camp, this is how, this is where it all started.
Seth: Yeah, it is.
David: Is like all these sacrifices were made. And so, and I-
Seth: And I would encourage you to go back, listen to our podcast on Exodus 40. We kind of-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... spent 40 minutes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on the first version of this.
David: Right.
Seth: So go back and listen to that.
David: Yeah. Obedi- like, the importance of obedience and, and, and all that stuff, and how to, how to read stuff like this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's, it, yeah, that was, that was helpful. Um, but I mean, clearly the way to see Jesus in this is, is, is going to be more obvious, I think, in that he is the perfect sacrifice.
Seth: Well, and-
David: Right?
Seth: ... he's the perfect obeyer.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's the perfect Israel.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: Like Is- like he, like he obeys the laws of Israel perfectly.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He comes to the temple, uh-
David: He is the temple
Seth: ... he is the temple. He is sacrificed like the lamb.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the whole nation is cleaned.
David: Yep.
Seth: And when his sacrifice is completed, the temple is broken in two-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and God's presence falls-
David: Yep
Seth: ... not on the temple, but on everybody.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's a reference-
David: In Acts 2
Seth: ... in Acts 2.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like this is, this is what happens in Jesus. [laughs]
David: Right. Exactly right. Yep. Um, and so that's, that's what's happening here.
Seth: That's it. I mean-
David: That's it. [laughs]
Seth: ... we've done it before.
David: Yep.
Seth: We've, we've talked about this before, so we don't feel a ton of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... energy to re-explain it to you. Go back to Exodus 40, uh, read it there.
David: Yep.
Seth: And even the fact that you're reading it twice-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... should just mean, like, this is important.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I think in, uh, Genesis, like, the fact that, or no, it's in Daniel, the fact that his dream is repeated twice-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... or even in Jo- the story of Joseph tells you-
David: Right
Seth: ... that this thing will most certainly come about.
David: Yep.
Seth: So the fact that it's re- repeated twice in the Pentateuch should tell you that obedience and God's presence are intimately linked together.
David: Mm.
Seth: God's purity and his holiness and sacrifice are central to the heart of God.
David: Right.
Seth: These things mu- must surely come about.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they do-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in Christ.
David: And the other thing to think about too is that all the tribes are involved. Um, we've, like you, you can kind of think about the clans that, and their responsibility, uh, in the, in the tabernacle, the different clans of the Levites.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we were, we made, we, we took pains to make, make the point that they weren't, they, they didn't have different amounts of dignity because they had different jobs, right? They were all important to, to the work of the Lord-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and to God's covenant people. And the same thing is happening here. Even though you're not a Levite, who actually gets to be in the tabernacle, you are having a, you, you play a part-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in God's covenant people.
Seth: Well, Paul says it like you're part of a body.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, and some are for more honorable use-
David: Right
Seth: ... and less honorable use.
David: Yep.
Seth: But all actually func- like if none, none of them function-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way they're intended, the whole body stops functioning.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Even if you think you're just a pinky toe, you actually, the whole body is balanced on your pinky and your big toe.
David: Right.
Seth: So if you lose that-
David: Right
Seth: ... it's, that's a significant-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... disability. Like-
David: And the most important part is what body are you a part of? You're a part of the body of Christ.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? And so for these people, it doesn't matter what, what part of the, of the, like where are you positioned around the tabernacle. Are you in the east, west, north, south? Are you closest to the tabernacle, farthest from the tabernacle? It doesn't really matter. What matters is you're in the land with God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's what matters.
Seth: You're part of his nation.
David: You're part of his nation, just like we're part of Christ's body. And so we should also see that here in this text. [gentle music]
Seth: So the story continues, not just the cleansing of the people, but the cleansing of the Levites who are working close- most closely into God's presence.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But that's bridged by this little thing with the seven lamps.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And the reason that's, you should just notice it as a bridge is because there's seven lamps in front of the one lamp that is representing of God's presence.
David: Mm.
Seth: The seven lamps, um, I think are a representation of all the people of God. And the reason why I think that is all the way in Revelation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you have the seven, uh, churches.
David: Churches.
Seth: And I think-
David: And there's seven lampstands for each church
Seth: ... and there's seven, and there's-
David: Or a lampstand per church
Seth: ... a lampstand per each church. And I think you could say, well, there, then there's only seven lamps. But that, that's, I think the purpose is all of God's people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are represented by those seven lamps.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And these messages are given to them. So I think biblically-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the idea of lampstands, particularly seven lampstands, represents all of God's people.
David: And is this the, are, are these, like, 'cause are there eight, there's, like, are there eight arms on the menorah? Is that-
Seth: Oh, yes.
David: And, and so-
Seth: How many are there? [laughs]
David: And so we're, we're like, are these the seven that point-
Seth: Well-
David: ... to the one in the middle, or are these seven separate lampstands?
Seth: Well, it just says, "When you set up the lamps, the seven lamps shall give light in front of the lampstand."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And Aaron did so, and he set up its lamps in front of the lampstand." So I think-
David: These are other lamps
Seth: ... these are seven lamps, I think, representing all the people-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in God's presence.
David: Yep.
Seth: ... in front of them, and who goes between the people and the presence?
David: Oh, the Levites.
Seth: The Levites.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Which is what we're talking about next.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: So this is the cleansing of the Levites who act as mediators between-
David: Right
Seth: ... the people and God's presence.
David: So the people have been atoned for and, and cleansed. Now the Levites need to be. And what we get here is what I think [laughs] is one of the most beautiful pictures in the whole book of Numbers.
Seth: I also thought it was the funniest picture.
David: Really?
Seth: Bec- well, because they said the people are being offered as a wave offering.
David: As a wave offering, yeah.
Seth: And so I just pictured, like-
David: So-
Seth: ... thousands of people just waving-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in front of the Tabernacle. [laughs]
David: I pictured, uh, I pictured, like, a big guy coming and picking up a littler guy and just-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... waving him around. [laughs] Uh, so let's get there. So, um, the Le- so the Levites, basically there's this picture that you need to see, and this is, like, where we get a really clear picture of the concentric circles of holiness we've talked about. You have the Tabernacle in the middle with Aaron and Moses kind of, like, right next to it. Then you have the Levites forming a circle, a protective boundary. They're actually called guards for the Tabernacle, and that they would bear the wrath for the people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of God. We looked at that a couple episodes ago. And then on the outside of the Levites, you have a circle of the rest of Israel. And what happens is there's this, like, prayer ring that's [laughs] set up. You know, like, well, you know, whenever you, like, surround someone and you lay hands on them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and you pray for them. We do that a lot here at our church, Bridgeway.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Um, well, it's not gonna be your church.
Seth: A prayer ring? [laughs]
David: A prayer ring. [laughs]
Seth: I've never really called that.
David: Yeah. Anyway, uh, and you... a- and what's supposed to happen is the Levi- or, or, or the rest of Israel is supposed to lay their hands on the Levites. And, and, and so, and then the Levites lay their hands on a bull, or bulls.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And, and so what you have is this, this transference. And so it says first that the Israelites lay their hands on the Levites, and the Levites are offered up to the Lord as a wave offering. Okay, now a wave offering back in Leviticus was either always dead, a dead animal-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and usually the breast of a chicken, and sometimes, like, the fat, right?
Seth: Right.
David: Or when, uh, there's a sheaf is a wave offering, like a sheaf of grain-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and sometimes bread.
Seth: Right.
David: So it's never a living thing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: It's always something that has, has died or is in- inanimate, right? But for the first time, we get Levites offered up as a wave offering.
Seth: They're just sitting there waving. [laughs]
David: And, [laughs] and the reason why they're a wave offering is because wave offerings aren't burned or, or killed or anything like that, but they are presumed to be dead.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so you have these things that are alive offered as a sacrifice so that they might go on living, working in the Tabernacle of God.
Seth: Okay.
David: Does this sound like Hebrews 12 to anyone?
Seth: What's Hebrews 12? [laughs]
David: Offer your, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your spiritual act of worship.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, like, what was the spiritual act of worship in the people of Israel was to tend the Tabernacle, to work with God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the Levites were the go-between between God and the rest of Israel and the rest of the world, and they were living sacrifices. They had been offered up to God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as a living sacrifice, as a wave offering.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so now in the new covenant, we are the Levites. We are the wave offering. We, we carry the death of Christ with us everywhere we go. Though we have died, yet we live. We, you know, it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's like, uh, Philippians 2:20 and 21. You know, all that stuff is just coming up here, and it's like we are the living sacrifices of God, and it's just really cool.
Seth: That is really cool.
David: And, um, I think it also shows that, uh, why, why did the sacrif- sacrifice need to be carried out by living people? It's so that it might continue perpetually, so that the sacrifice might be done day after day after day, year after year after year. And what are we told about our ultimate priest?
Seth: Right.
David: He lives for us forever at the right hand of God, constantly making intercession.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is the living sacrifice that's always before the presence of God, always making intercession.
Seth: That's good.
David: Isn't that cool?
Seth: That's really cool. And I think what this little scene helps me do, too, is, like, sometimes I have a hard time thinking, "Why do I need a representative?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, "Why do I need somebody else to pay for my sins? Like, why can't I do it myself? Like, why do I need a head that I look up to or I submit to?"
David: Right.
Seth: And so this idea of having a bunch of sacrifices in the middle.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The priests, I mean, thousands of priests.
David: Yep.
Seth: Thousands of priests in rings around multiple bulls, placing their hands on the bulls, and then you have thousands of people behind them placing their hands on the priests. Like, it's this profound picture of the way that God imagines his relationship working with his people.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like, it's always... Now, I don't wanna say one step removed, but it's always through another.
David: Yep.
Seth: Our relationship with God is always secured or made, made possible through another-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when we place our hands on another. And so I just think that's really helpful, like, for me, even as I think about why I need a savior, why I need Jesus, why I need a new priest, although he's not a Levite. He's, anyway-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's a whole different thing.
David: But he's better than Levi.
Seth: He's be- better than Levi.
David: He was in the loins of Levi. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Melchizedek. Anyway, more Hebrews. He, um, he puts his hand, like when we place our hands on Jesus, it does that for us. Like, we're reenacting the consecration of the temple.
David: Exactly.
Seth: And I mean, even, like, I am a temple of the Holy Spirit because I place my hands on Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This temple has been concentrated because I have-
David: Consecrated
Seth: ... consecrate- concentrated?
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: I think I was about to be like, like juice. Like, I, I've, I am now holy-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because I have placed my hands not on a mediator who places his hand on a sacrifice-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but on the sacrifice itself, who was my mediator.
David: Right.
Seth: And I am made holy by that once and for all.
David: Yeah, yeah. And so that's why there were bulls in the middle, like that it, i- if Israel, or if the Levites were going to stand in for the rest of Israel, they would've had to die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But God doesn't take human life for sacrifice except for his own, which is just the gospel.
Seth: Except for himself. [laughs]
David: Which is just the gospel. And instead, then the Levites pass on what they've-
Seth: Right
David: ... been passed on, too, [laughs] to the people.
Seth: Yeah, and I mean, even, like-
David: It's crazy
Seth: ... why can't I be my own mediator?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, because to be your own mediator, you have to die.
David: Yeah, and God's too merciful for that.
Seth: Oh! [laughs]
David: So like-
Seth: That's so good So it's like, I want to place my hand-
David: Oh
Seth: ... on something that dies-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so that I might have life. Like, and that was, that's the whole story of the Bible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, if you want to live in perfect life, like, it demands death.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, because I am not perfect life.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Like, so it's not that, like, God's bloodthirsty and h- he needs a, a sacrifice. He needs death in order to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... give you life. It's that you are death-
David: Yes [laughs]
Seth: ... and you have 120 years running down on your body, maybe probably less.
David: Right.
Seth: You are death.
David: Yep.
Seth: You are death incarnate.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But if you want, death incarnate wants to live with life incarnate, you need...
David: A representative
Seth: ... a representative.
David: A go-between.
Seth: Who can die and then rise.
David: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It's such a beautiful picture. And, um, uh, and now it's, I'm trying to see what would this picture look like in the, the Kingdom of God now. That it's like, God's presence is Jesus, and-
Seth: We are his temple.
David: Yeah, but I'm, I'm trying to like, uh, it's like God's presence in the tabernacle is Jesus, and Jesus is the sacrificed bull-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the middle.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's both. Those things used to be separated. You needed the bull to get in the presence.
Seth: Right.
David: Now the presence is the bull and the presence, and like all that is swirled together in the middle-
Seth: Oh
David: ... and we come straight to it.
Seth: Yes.
David: And we lay our hands on Jesus, who is both the presence of God and the sacrifice.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so in one like swirled together moment, we are brought into the presence of God because of the sacrifice of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's all squished together.
Seth: Well, it's, it goes back to why, like, there are so many debates about communion. So like, the way that communi- like communion is a, is, is a, a, a picture of a sacrifice.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But to so- others, it is the sacrifice.
David: Oh, I see. Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: Like the whole transubstantiation debate.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so when Catholic Churches, why was the, the priest would always stand in front of the sacrifice-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... turn around and grab the sacrifice, and mediate it to others, just like the Old Testament.
David: Levites. Yeah.
Seth: But the Protestants would put the table in front of the priest-
David: Right
Seth: ... or the, the, the, the preacher-
David: Or the preacher, yeah
Seth: ... or the minister.
David: The minister.
Seth: And they would come directly to it.
David: Right.
Seth: They're touching the sacrifice, the presence.
David: Right.
Seth: Everything is right there at their hands because it's communicating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The Old Testament way of like coming through mediators-
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah
Seth: ... is done. We come straight to the mediator, to the presence, to God himself.
David: Yeah. Which is, uh, really interesting that you bring that up because the very next thing is the Lord's supper. It's the Passover is celebrated next.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which, uh, which-
Seth: Oh man, that's so good.
David: Yeah. [gentle music] Okay, so we start this n- this new section, it's not really a new section, but, uh, chapter nine begins, uh, the Passover, the Passover celebrated. So it's been a year since the first Passover.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, because Passover is New Year's Day for Israel. They're supposed to set their calendars by it. So now it's been a year since the first one, which is cool. Like, one year anniversary of being rescued from Egypt.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: And, uh, and this isn't so much about-
Seth: So are we still in a flashback?
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay, so we're still in a flashback.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is the second Passover.
David: Yep.
Seth: The first one was celebrated in Egypt.
David: Yep.
Seth: This is one is celebrated at the foot of Mount Sinai.
David: Yeah. And, and the flashback that we're in is very recent. It's a more recent flashback because this one is the first month of the year, is Passover.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then when, and then right before they set out, um, we're gonna read, uh, uh, or like what we've been reading was hap- happening in the second month of it, of the-
Seth: Okay
David: ... of the year. So it's like, it's very close.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, but it is, the timeline is a little confusing. Um, but it's not super-duper important.
Seth: Right.
David: What's more important is the structure that's here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I- and it's less important of like why, like which one was first chronologically.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What's important is which one is, is what, what's the order literarily.
Seth: Right.
David: 'Cause the reason they've been moved around is to make a theological point.
Seth: Yeah, and the reason why this Passover is chronologically like jumped-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is because the Passover is the defining moment-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of redemption for the Hebrew people.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they're about to experience it again as they go into the new, uh, the new Eden.
David: That's right.
Seth: But what's fascinating about this is where we just read a bunch of obedience.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is like, you would expect them, you'd expect then, okay, the Passover was celebrated precisely in accordance with everything that was expe- that was laid out in Exodus.
David: Yeah, they're, they're on an obedience streak.
Seth: Right. But what actually happens here is an extenuating circumstance.
David: Right.
Seth: So the law demanded that if you were unclean, you were not allowed to participate in the feast, the sacrificial system-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... whatever else.
David: Right.
Seth: But-
David: Yeah, even this whole section was kicked off with, "If you were unclean, go outside the camp."
Seth: Right.
David: Yep.
Seth: But Passover is so central to God's-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... saving work, what happens if you're unclean-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because the day that you're supposed to celebrate your salvation.
David: Right. Because it was like, if you don't take the Passover, then you are banished.
Seth: Right.
David: And so it's like, I'm in a catch-22. I can't take the Passover or, uh, bec-
Seth: So-
David: ... or else I'll be banished because I'm unclean. Or, but I'm unclean, so I can't take the Passover, so then I'll be banished.
Seth: And if you're like, "Well, how did that happen?" Like, like if you're like, "Well, how did that tension come about?" It's like, well, the people-
David: Life. [laughs]
Seth: ... of Israel didn't expect it to come about-
David: Right
Seth: ... until it happened.
David: Yep.
Seth: So this group of men comes up to Moses and says, "Our, our, somebody in our family died. We've touched a d- dead body."
David: Yep.
Seth: "We actually not wor- but we can't participate, but we really want to."
David: Right.
Seth: And so Moses is like, "Oh, that is a tension I never thought about."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, "This is, God saved us from death, but you can't participate in our salvation from death and slavery because you've touched death?" So he goes and asks God, and God says he's allowed to, the people who've been unclean are still allowed to, and they celebrate together.
David: Yep. And, um, and, and, uh, but they actually celebrate it, uh, at a separate time.
Seth: Oh, really?
David: Yeah. They don't, they don't celebrate at the same time. God sets up a second Passover.
Seth: What?
David: Yeah. R- read verse 11.
Seth: Mm.
David: Verse 11 of chapter nine, "In the second month of the 14th day at twilight, they shall keep it." So they don't actually keep it with every- God is, is upholding the law by saying unclean people aren't supposed to eat-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the Passover, but he makes a, he makes a provision for them that they can celebrate it a month later.
Seth: And so that way they would still, they would be ritually clean.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they'd be able to be, to celebrate the Passover.
David: Yep.
Seth: So the timing's different.
David: The timing's different.
Seth: It's not that the death was taken away-
David: Nope
Seth: ... the impurty was taken away.
David: Nope.
Seth: It's that God is allowing them to celebrate it a month later.
David: That's right. He's upholding both sides of the law by making a provision. He's saying, "I'll just let you celebrate the Passover a little bit later." So basically, anyone who is unclean, uh, sojourners, uh, pe- uh, like, there was a second Passover. It wasn't, like, a lesser Passover.
Seth: Right.
David: But it was just an extra provision made that if the timing didn't work out-
Seth: If you were unclean
David: ... for you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, maybe your mom died on New Year's Eve. Like [laughs] you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And it's like, well, you can't eat the Passover. That's horrible.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But there's a provision made. You can, you can do it in, in month two.
Seth: So, on, so why is this here, then?
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: So that, that's what I was like, so, like, we're on an obedient streak. We're int- going into the new Eden, so lots of expectations.
David: Right.
Seth: We've already had this idea that God's intimately involved in the governance of Israel.
David: Yep.
Seth: But, like-
David: He didn't just wind up a clock and let it go
Seth: ... but, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this feels like it's out of order from everything else.
David: Yeah. I think for me, what's happening here is if you think about it, I mean, what happened at Passover, number one, right? There were all these sacrifices that had to take place, the, the lamb, and then you spread the blood over the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the doorpost.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then wrath passed over your house. When God's presence came-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh-huh, like, it, noth- nothing bad happened to the people. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then they were rescued, and they went on a trip.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They left Egypt and went to Mount Sinai. Now the same thing's happening. All these sacrifices have been made, both, um, all, from all the tribes in chapter 7, then from the Levites w- with the rings and the hands being placed in the bowls. All the sacrifices have been made, and now God's presence is about to come.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they're about to go on a trip.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're about to leave Sinai and go into the promised land. And so why, uh, but what happened in between the sacrifices and the trip, Passover happened in Exodus. They celebrated this meal.
Seth: Hmm.
David: And so they're recapitulating their Exodus story.
Seth: Got it.
David: They're doing it all over again.
Seth: Got it.
David: And so what we're supposed to see here is v- not only is this one Passover lamb important, he's saying this whole sacrificial system that Leviticus has set up that you've now celebrated, and the priests that are there are now all a part of this system that will make my wrath pass over you.
Seth: Hmm.
David: And so let's celebrate the Passover, and then let's go on a trip.
Seth: That's really-
David: And I think that's what's happening. They're living out-
Seth: That's really fascinating
David: ... the, the story of, of Exodus.
Seth: Yeah, on their way into the new Eden.
David: They're about to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... go on a trip. Yep.
Seth: Yeah. Man. So the only other thing that I thought about here, too, and it's kind of a sad one, it's that, um, going to the new Eden-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... should have meant that all that went wrong-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is reversed.
David: Right. S- pu- ultimately, and, like, the, the ultimate wrong. [laughs]
Seth: Ultimate wrong, death.
David: Death.
Seth: Is not reversed.
David: Right.
Seth: But actually a provision for it is being made-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the perpetual keeping of the Passover. So I think, too, it's supposed to hint at the fact that the new Eden won't be the new Eden.
David: Yeah. There be, there will be death in it. There's a provision made for death in the new Eden?
Seth: For e- forever?
David: Wait, what?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, I thought God's promises were coming true.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think as a reader-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... you're supposed to feel like this is a little out of place-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because death isn't supposed to be in the new Eden.
David: That's right.
Seth: There shouldn't be provisions for death because there should be no more death.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so I think what's, what's happening here is not, you're not just getting clued in to the broader story of the Bible, you're getting clued in to what's about to happen in Numbers.
David: Right, 'cause Numbers is all about death. So much death in Numbers. In fact, like, the rest of the time between the, the two censuses that we get numbers is death totals. So, like, a, a people will disobey, and a punishment will come, and, and whenever the intercession comes and the punishment stops, we get a death total.
Seth: Hmm.
David: And it's like 4,097 people died in this plague before it was stopped, and then another plague comes-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... and 3,000 some odd dead, dead. 14,000 dead, and it's just death total-
Seth: Right
David: ... death total, death total. And if you think about this, 40 years in the wilderness, uh, in order to make 600,000 people die because they refused to enter the land, I mean, every day someone's dying.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Multiple people would have to die every day to hit that total.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so Israel is going to be surrounded by death as they walk through the wilderness for 40 years. So that means every single year on day one, uh, they gotta celebrate the Passover, but there's dead people everywhere.
Seth: Right.
David: So they're-
Seth: There's buried people along the way, like-
David: They're always gonna be ritually-
Seth: Right
David: ... impure.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, how will they be able to remember that God is a God who saves them in the midst of all this death? How are they going to be able to remember that God is faithful and gracious and will pass them over in his wrath, and won't always be punishing them, right? How will they be able to celebrate the Passover in the midst of death?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, that's why God makes this provision, is he says that, "Even in the midst of death, I am faithful."
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, for, for me, like, that is so vivid of a picture of, like... A- and I, I feel like I've taken, taken the Lord's Supper for granted, where it's like what a beautiful place for me to be able to go in the midst of life's trouble when it looks like God's not faithful, when it looks like things are falling apart, when it, when, when, when people I know and love die, when my wife miscarries, when things just go wrong and are broken. The Lord's Supper stands at the altar for me to come to and be like, "God is faithful." [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, in the midst of death, in the midst of chaos, God is faithful.
Seth: And think, too, like, we get to take the Lord's Supper whenever we need it.
David: Yeah, it's so cool.
Seth: We don't have to wait a month-
David: Nope
Seth: ... with the rest of the-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... with the rest of God's people.
David: It's not once a year.
Seth: We take it as often, as often as you drink this cup-
David: Yep
Seth: ... remember me.
David: Man.
Seth: Like, that's-
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's, like, it's better. [laughs]
David: It's better. So much better.
Seth: It's better.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So we have this hint-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that the new Eden won't be the new Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's just a hint.
David: Right.
Seth: Because the next thing that happens is God's presence falls.
David: Well-
Seth: Right?
David: ... kind of. Yeah, kind of. Um, i- it's, uh, it's, it's actually just a, like, a little Like story that takes place. It's not, uh, uh, and it's, "On the day the tabernacle set up, the cloud covered the temple and the tent of the testimony." Um, and so-
Seth: And so there's a fire under the morning.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that's like-
David: That's like-
Seth: ... some type of presence, right?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the rest of it, like so you get that. So yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I should've said yes, but.
Seth: Yes, but. Okay.
David: Yes, but.
Seth: So God's presence falls.
David: God's presence falls.
Seth: But-
David: Which, which is like Eden-
Seth: Which is like Eden
David: ... which is great. Yep. Uh, but then, uh, and then it's, and then verse 16, "So it was always." And then we kind of get this picture of what the journey of Israel looks like.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what it basically says is, when the cloud would lift, the people, the Gershonites and the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Kohathites [laughs] and whatever, the Mer people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from last episode-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... would gather up the tabernacle, and they would keep walking.
Seth: Until-
David: And they would follow the pillar until it rested, and then they would set up the tabernacle under the, underneath the pillar-
Seth: Right
David: ... and they would wait. And they would wait until-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the pillar would leave.
Seth: And thinking-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that they're repeating the Exodus story-
David: Yep, exactly right
Seth: ... every single time they move.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like what do they do? Passover, God's pr- like, like what, uh, that you... Shoot. [laughs] I keep messing up.
David: [laughs]
Seth: They got rescued out of Egypt by-
David: Oh
Seth: ... a pillar of clo- cloud and fire.
David: Yes.
Seth: God's presence falls.
David: Yes.
Seth: Again, they celebrate the Passover, they complete the things, and then God's presence falls.
David: Right. Right. Right.
Seth: The same thing's happening over and over again, and every time they move, they're remembering the Exodus story.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like yeah.
David: Yeah. And so, uh, uh, what, what I, what I read about this was really funny. They, they said the Hebrew here is really, not awkward, but dis- like different from the rest.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it, it's-
Seth: Where?
David: ... almost sing-songy-
Seth: Where?
David: ... through this whole thing. So it's like, uh, "At the command of the Lord, the people of Israel set out, and at the command of the Lord they camped. As long as the cloud rested over the tabernacle, they remained in the camp. Even when the cloud contin-" It's like it just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it, it's so much cloud, and set up, and go out, and s- and come down, and, and stay.
Seth: And camp, and camp, and camp
David: And camp, and camp, and set out, and all this stuff. And apparently it's, it's, it kind of sounds like a song that they would have sung as they traveled.
Seth: So like as they were packing up, they were like, "Hi-ho. Hi-ho. It's off to Canaan we go."
David: "Hi-ho. It's off to Canaan we go." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: I think so, yeah. And so, um, that's what's happening here, is, uh, a- and it's, it's predicting future obedna- obedience.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, which will end up not really being the case. They will kind of follow God everywhere, but it's, it's an ironic following because they'll follow God, and we're about to see them get straight to Canaan. Like they're gonna get there real quick, pretty soon. But then after they disobey, we're gonna see them meander in the wilderness for 40 years. And they're following God, and they, they're, they're following the pillar and everything, but they're not going anywhere.
Seth: Okay.
David: They're going in circles, and they're dying off as they wander. And so this is like an ironic obedience that they're following God, but as they do they're dying because they're-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they are being punished.
Seth: And so at this point it's not ironic because we don't know they're gonna die yet. We have the hint.
David: That's right. We have a hint with the death thing.
Seth: With the death thing.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then maybe this is ironic, but what you're saying is the story will prove that this is an ironic following.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're following the pillar of fire-
David: Right
Seth: ... but they're not actually following God.
David: Exactly right. Yeah. Oof.
Seth: Even though they're, they obey them with their mouth-
David: Yep
Seth: ... their hearts are far from him.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like it's the same story that gets repeated in the prophets and everywhere else.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like there's this external obedience-
David: Yep
Seth: ... as if you're following God, but the rest, the rest of their lives prove that they're not.
David: Yep. That's right. And so I mean, what's cool for this, uh, I mean this part for us, is this cloud that comes over the tabernacle and tells it to go, or move, or stay, or go here, or go there, it gives direction. It tells you to stop or tells you to go. In the New Testament, that's the Holy Spirit.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, right?
Seth: Yep.
David: The Holy-
Seth: I mean, exactly what it's doing right here.
David: Exactly right. Exactly right.
Seth: Exactly what it's doing right here.
David: And then, um, Philip in Acts 7, the Holy Spirit led him, uh, to go be wi- or was it 8? Acts 8, I think, uh, to the Ethiopian eunuch.
Seth: Yeah. The, the Holy Spirit will prevent Paul from going to a particular place.
David: Yep, restrains him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And, uh, we're told to live in step with the Spirit, to walk with the Spirit. And so we still have this pillar of cloud and smoke that comes over the new tabernacle of God and tells it where to go and what to do.
Seth: I wish I still had a pillar of cloud and smoke.
David: I know. [laughs]
Seth: Don't, like... So why is it better-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that I don't have a pillar of cloud-
David: Yeah, right
Seth: ... hovering over Kansas City, which we're, I'm about to move? Like why is it better?
David: Yeah, that would be nice if, as you were-
Seth: Right
David: ... wrestling with leaving Oklahoma City-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and moving to Kansas, if it was just like, "Oh, the pillar's moving. I'm going over there."
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. I mean, obviously-
Seth: Why is it better?
David: Yeah. I think you're, you're, you're picking up on the end of John, right? And Jesus says, "It's better that I leave you because I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to be your helper."
Seth: So in one sense, Jesus was the pillar of fi- fire and cloud.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like he comes, incarnates God's presence.
David: In one place.
Seth: In one place.
David: Yeah, he was called the tabernacle.
Seth: He's walking around.
David: Yep.
Seth: He's the tabernacle. As he walks, places, people are getting healed. Like-
David: And people are following him and, yeah, whenever he would leave, they would follow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: So like he's the cloud.
David: Yep.
Seth: But then he's like, "It's better that the cloud goes away."
David: Mm-hmm. Because now there's going to be millions of clouds.
Seth: It's like, it's better than fire. I mean, and that's what happened on the day of Pentecost, fire falls-
David: Yep, right
Seth: ... on-
David: On pe- on bunches of people
Seth: ... on bunches of people.
David: [laughs]
Seth: 120 people. But really that happens once.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the fire is inside.
David: Yes.
Seth: The fire is subjective.
David: Yeah. And that's why it's better. It's better because as you talked about, there was this split between following the presence of God outwardly and actually following God inwardly. What the Holy Spirit does as the new fire, he comes in and guides us and says, "Go here, go there, do this, do this."
Seth: Mm.
David: But as Ezekiel says, he actually causes us to obey, and he actually gives us hearts that actually love God, that can actually follow him both with our actions and with our affections.
Seth: So for people who are filled with the Holy Spirit-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it actually becomes impossible to obey God with your hands, but have a heart that's far from him. Like, I mean, i- impossible's a strong word.
David: Right.
Seth: But what I'm, but what I mean by that is if you are f- like if you are filled with the Holy Spirit, if the fire is inside you, like w- the true thing that you should be searching for is not necessarily where you should be going.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's that As you are going, you are living as God intended.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is what, this is the will of the Lord, your sanctification.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: First Thessalonians.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think this has been advice I've given to my students fairly frequently, but I haven't had a biblical theological thing with-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the pillar, pillar of fire in the Old Testament. But I've said, like, it's not so much that, like, God, God cares about where you go.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But what he's really concerned with is with your heart as you go.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think that's what is proven in Numbers. It's like, it's not that the fact that they got to the border of Canaan.
David: Right.
Seth: It's that their hearts were right when they got to Canaan.
David: Yeah, right. Yeah.
Seth: And so I think for us, we should probably move, uh, the goalposts-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... on what is success.
David: Right.
Seth: Success isn't knowing with 100% certainty that you should go to Kansas City versus New York City versus staying in Oklahoma City.
David: Right.
Seth: The marker of success is that you are faithful, that your heart did not stray, and that you're obedient to the Lord throughout that process.
David: Yeah, he wants your heart.
Seth: He wants your heart.
David: Yeah. Absolutely.
Seth: He's less... Yeah.
David: It's so good. And, um, and-
Seth: And that's why it's better, right?
David: Yeah, yeah, that's why it's better. And I think it's just so encouraging, uh, to, to know that this, this pillar and this fire that guided the people of Israel is in me and guides me, and, like, I just don't live like that's true so often, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I'm like, "I'm gonna pick up my tent and walk whenever I want, and I'm not actually gonna wait for the fire of the Lord to move," and, uh, 'cause that just seems so counterproductive.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it, and like, I can imagine for Israel, it probably felt like that every ni- why are we s- why are we still here? Why haven't, why haven't we left yet? Or it's like, we just set up. Why are we already leaving? Like, you can imagine as they followed the t- the fire of the Lord through the wilderness, some of the moves he made probably didn't make sense, but they waited.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, that is wisdom, is waiting on the Lord.
Seth: Yeah, and it's not to say that in that process of the internal, subjective, heart-transforming pillar of cloud that lives inside of us that there isn't a directive element to it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's not, God does care. God's mostly concerned about your heart wherever you go.
David: Right.
Seth: But he also cares about where you go.
David: Yep.
Seth: As is evidenced by the fact that Paul was prevented from going to Macedonia-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and Philip was led to the Ethiopian eunuch.
David: Jesus went to the wilderness, yep.
Seth: But what we have in the Holy Spirit is better because we have a guarantee-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that we are sealed by God.
David: First Corinthians 1.
Seth: And he will make us more like his Son-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as we go there.
David: Yep.
Seth: Even if we end up on the wrong side of the wilderness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... our hearts will be better off. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: I think that's really important to know, is like, I think, I think a lot of people are, are probably thinking, like, "I don't feel like there's a guiding fire in my heart telling me where to go-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and making my heart actually obey and love God." And it's like, yeah, it might not feel like that, but think about the Book of Numbers as a whole, and as they meander, as the old generation meanders around the wilderness, ta- uh, tagging the younger generation along, and the younger generation has to watch the older, older generation just die and die and die and wait and wait and wait, and there's, they see the pillar of cloud lift and drop, lift and drop, and they're moving around. The younger generation is watching all this, and they're, they're changing. Their hearts are changing, so that as they get closer to being the majority of the camp, um, they are proven as way more faithful.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, when they go into battle, they win because God is with them. Whenever they get to the Promised Land in the Book of Joshua, they actually obey. I mean, this, these are the people who, unlike their forefathers, in the Book of Joshua, they're gonna come up to the, to the land of Jericho, and they're not even gonna pull a sword out. They're just gonna march around it and blow trumpets, and, like, and the city falls. Like, this is the faith of people who went through extreme suffering and loss and death in order to get to this place of extreme faith. And so, like, even though it might not feel like you're being taken in the right direction or in the right spot-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, God is forming you, and that is the promise of perseverance in the Holy Spirit, that even though it might not feel like a guarantee, it is a guarantee that he will bring you where he wants you to be. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of Scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
