Intro: [instrumental music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right. Well, welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. We're really thankful that you're joining us today. Seth, how you feeling?
Seth: I'm feeling great.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm feeling really good. I had my coffee.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I had a donut.
David: Ooh.
Seth: I took my son at the, I took my son at the motorcycle store.
David: Oh, your-
Seth: Um-
David: Shiloh loves motorcycles.
Seth: [laughs] He, he... My brother-in-law races, uh-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and like, and so Shiloh, like, loves motorcycles, and so whenever we go, he wants to go. But what's weird is, like, he's less interested in the motorcycles and more interested in the poker chips for whatever reason. Like, all motorcycle-
David: What?
Seth: ... stores have poker chips.
David: Why?
Seth: And like they're a dollar, so like we always buy [laughs] him one.
David: That's really funny.
Seth: So, so he ha- he has all these poker chips from like Harley Davidson and Indian motorcycles. [laughs]
David: That's really funny. Uh, your little... How old is he? Is he four?
Seth: Four. [laughs]
David: Yeah, your four-year-old has a bunch of poker chips. It's like when I g- was growing up, I really just liked collecting shot glasses from everywhere we went-
Seth: That-
David: ... but I was like in elementary school
Seth: ... is amazing. [laughs]
David: And so I was a little elementary school... I had no clue, I had no clue what shot glasses were.
Seth: [laughs] Good stuff.
David: I just thought they had cool designs.
Seth: You just drink, have the little tea parties with your sister. [laughs]
David: Little milk.
Seth: Milk shots.
David: Oh, that's really funny. Uh, okay.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, uh, we are in Numbers, uh, 31, and we're gonna talk about, uh, mainly Numbers 31 and, uh, probably, uh, talk about, uh, 32 as well, uh, 'cause they kind of tie-
Seth: Just a little bit
David: ... together with the theme of, of war. So just kind of a disclaimer for today, we're gonna be talking about holy war and, um-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's, it's gonna be a probably a difficult discussion with a lot of nuance. And, um, I, I don't know. I'd probably like to give a preface on, on this episode, which is just saying like, "Hey, come with an open mind." We're gonna... W- me and Seth are still really struggling through understanding these kinds of things and, um, we prayed right before this that we would, um, put ourselves under the authority of scripture and not try to make ourselves-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... over the authority of scripture. And, uh-
Seth: I think-
David: ... and so... Yeah
Seth: ... what's, 'cause a, a lot's gonna happen.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and when I come to texts like this in the Bible, my first response is always like, "Let's make it sound a little bit less terrible. Let's explain-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... the cultural context in such a way that makes a little bit more sense of what's happening." Uh, but that's, that might be helpful to a certain extent, but that's actually not the heart of why this is in the Book of Numbers. The b- this is in the Book of Numbers so that we would rejoice with Israel that their enemies are defeated. Like, we are-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... supposed to see as good news the destruction of God's enemies. Like, so like the good news, the gospel that we're supposed to see here is that evil is defeated. Spiritual adultery and idolatry are done with. Um, so much so that even in the Book of Revelation, Revelation 19, we, we actually read it together before, um, we came on the air.
David: We record. Yeah.
Seth: W- it just says... They're talking about spiritual adultery. It might even be referencing like these conquest narratives, and it just says this.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "The, uh, gr- the great crowd of people in heaven," like the saved, the redeemed of the lamb, "say, 'Hallelujah. Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. For true and just are His judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of the servants.' And again, they shouted, 'Hallelujah. The smoke goes up from her cities forever and ever.'" So apparently on the last day when Jesus comes back, the redeemed of the Lord will celebrate over the smoke and the ruined cities of the great prostitute, those who, those nations and leaders and, um, individuals who have made it their duty or their job to corrupt the people of God, to lead them away into spiritual adultery-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and idolatry. And that ma- that, that... Adultery's important because that's what actually happens in-
David: Yes
Seth: ... here in chapter 31.
David: Right.
Seth: So like that's our heart, and it's like if that's the end of the Bible, that we rejoice-
David: Mm
Seth: ... over God's just and true judgments, um, can we do that here? Let's explain the cultural context. Let's make sure we understand what's actually happening. Is God really saying like, "Steal all the virgins for yourselves"? [laughs] You know? Like what-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like let's actually understand what he's saying.
David: Right.
Seth: But the heart should be that we should one day rejoice over God's judgments-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, as hard as that might sound.
David: So yeah, another way to say kinda what you're saying too here as a, as a way of preface is that, um, there, there are some things, uh, back in the day and back in that culture that we're gonna have to take off our modern filters and go kinda try to see this text through their eyes.
Seth: Right.
David: But that does not mean that this story is not part of our story or w- will not continue to be part of our future. Uh, because, you know, like, like you just said, like the fut- our future is somehow, uh, tied into this story of holy war here and is brought to fulfillment and completion in the second coming of Jesus, which is the most glorious event that we look forward to as Christians. And so if we're going to understand everything that Jesus is going to do in his second coming and look forward to that with godly, holy eyes, then, uh, we need to grapple with this text, um, in, in its original context. And, uh, not so we can separate it from our current context, but so that we can understand it rightly and look forward to God's plan in the future.
Seth: That's right. Yeah.
David: Okay. So where have we been, uh, in Numbers? Uh, kind of what have we come from, uh, that got us to this place? Maybe that would be a good place to start.
Seth: Yeah. So the story, this story really begins back with Balaam. So Balaam ends up prophesying all these blessings over Israel. And based on the prophecies that he gets from God as a pagan, um, idolater, he actually joins the camp of Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so Balaam was this widely known, widely respected seer and prophet of his time. We talked about how there's Babylonian walls that have been discovered in Jordan with Baal of Peor's name-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... writ- or it's Beor, Beor.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, not Baal. Balaam of Beor.
David: Balaam of B- Beor. Yeah.
Seth: Uh, like, he's like, he is one of the great counselors of their time, and he actually joins the nation of Israel. So apparently, Moses or some of the leaders of Israel start looking to him for spiritual advice, national advice, and Balaam, uh, convinces them that they should have sex and make families with the people of Midian-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and start worshiping their gods. And the people listen to the voice of Balaam, and that's exactly what happens. This is where Phinehas comes in. All these families and these chiefs have been, like, committing spiritual and physical adultery with-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... this other nation, worshiping other gods.
David: Right.
Seth: And Phinehas comes in to stop the apostasy, and he-
David: Right
Seth: ... spears some of the leaders through their middle.
David: Yep.
Seth: And we- we've kind of been there. You can go back and listen to those.
David: Yeah. And so, and that's a really important thing to talk about here that maybe we should just, uh, unpack a little bit, is this link between physical adultery and spiritual adultery, that the people of Israel were intermarrying with the people of Midian, but that wasn't their only sin. They weren't supposed to do that. God forbid that. Uh, and, and, but that wasn't the, um, the worst of, of it, I guess you would say.
Seth: It was a, it was a, it was a side effect or a-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... symptom of a, the root cause, idolatry.
David: Right.
Seth: Israel did not-
David: They were worshiping their gods. Yeah.
Seth: Right. Israel did not trust God to provide for them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So they're sleeping and adding to their panthe- to the mono- the only, the temple, other false gods to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... make sure that they can get victory. When they go into the land of Midian or when they-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... go into the land of Edom, they assume that if they had those gods on their side by sleeping with their women or adding their idols to the temple, or even to their own homes-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they would be more successful in battle.
David: Right.
Seth: But God says, "No, I alone will save you."
David: Right.
Seth: And so it's, it's kind of like a rejection. It's like, it's not taking God at his word.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's a failure to choose the way of wisdom or the tree of life, but to eat this false knowledge or-
David: Right
Seth: ... consume it. Right.
David: And so this was the older generation that did this, and after this final apostasy, we see, um, all of their numbers finally dwindle away as God promised back in Numbers 13 when they refused to enter the land of Canaan. And so now the new generation is numbered and counted, and they are the ones that are to lead the people of Israel into the promised land of Canaan. And, um, we're, we're supposed to see the shift taking place in the spiritual milieu, [laughs] in the spiritual-
Seth: Ooh. Milieu
David: ... climate.
Seth: Fresh.
David: The, the s- the, the spiritual climate of, of the, of the Israelites that now the younger-
Seth: The old generation-
David: Yeah. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... wanted, like was sleeping with other women and-
David: Right
Seth: ... worshiping false gods. This generation will destroy all false worship.
David: Yes, exactly.
Seth: They take it very s- Phinehas would spear somebody through the middle-
David: Right
Seth: ... to protect the worship of God, and that actually translate to the entire army and nation of Israel.
David: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Seth: Like, it's not just Phinehas. It's everyone.
David: Right. And, yep.
Seth: So part of what we're- Uh, go on. Go on.
David: Oh, I was just about to start Numbers 31, so if you have anything else before that.
Seth: Nope. So was I.
David: Okay. Okay, perfect. [laughs]
Seth: Let's go. Onward, Christian soldier. [laughs]
David: Onward. So appropriate. And so, yeah. So, so God comes again to Moses and repeats a command that he gave, I think, back in chapter 25, um, to, uh, destroy the people of Midian, uh, to avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites, that there is vengeance to be paid, that there was something that Midian did toward God and toward Israel that needed to be repaid. That's the spiritual adultery that they led them into, the physical adultery they led them into. Um, all of this now requires God's judgment to come upon this people. Is that a decent way to set that up?
Seth: Yeah. I was trying-
David: What do you, what else would you add to that set?
Seth: I was just trying to figure out what exactly Midian's role was in it, because from what we've r- read earlier, it sounds like Balaam suggested this idea and the people of Israel pursued it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But this makes it sound like Midian was also, like, trying to infiltrate Israel in one sense. Like, they did not care for Israel's God, and they actually preferred the worship of their own god to Israel's God, and they were intentionally leading away, uh, God's people to worship the gods of Midian.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: Does that make sense to you?
David: Yeah, definitely. I think there's, you know, in the, uh, in the marriages, in the cross-pollination of culture and religions and politics that was going on, uh, because of Balaam's suggestion and Israel's sin, um, I'm sure all kinds of Midianites were complicit in leading Israel away into spiritual rebellion. Uh, but I think there's also another layer to this, that the Midianites, uh, to, y- y- you know, in, in all, all the Midianites were i- idol worshipers. They did not-
Seth: Right
David: ... worship Yahweh alone. And since Yahweh alone is worthy of worship, they are all under his condemnation for-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not putting him first, even though they've heard about this people, Israel, who this God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Yahweh w- had rescued from Egypt and, and parted through the Red Sea, and they've been conquering the king of Og and all this other stuff.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet they have not repented.
Seth: So in one sense, like, there's a direct correlation. The reason God is asking for vengeance on Midian is because, on one sense, they've directly infiltrated and corrupted the religion and true worship of Yahweh.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: In another, another sense, the whole nation is under God's condemnation and vengeance because they do not worship the true God as it is.
David: That's right.
Seth: Even if they had never done anything to try to infiltrate-
David: Right
Seth: ... uh, the worship of Yahweh, they would still, in one sense, need to be punished this way, need to be-
David: Yes
Seth: ... avenged in this way.
David: Which is a good paradigm to kind of talk about and maybe unpack a bit. Because this is what happens in all the conquest, that it's not just that the people of Canaan happen to live in the wrong place at the wrong time. You know, it's like, "Hey, that's God's land. Get out." That's not necessarily-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's happening. That these are the spiritual ancestors and the physical ancestors of some of the worst people in the Bible. [laughs] Like, these are... You know, if you go back to Genesis and you trace the two seeds, one the seed of the serpent, one the seed of Eve, you trace them down. The people who went to go live in Canaan and set up these cities that are going to be destroyed by Israel in holy war are the people, uh, from Cain's line and from Laban's line. And you know, it's these-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... horrible- or Lamech. Sorry, Lamech's line.
Seth: Lamech.
David: Yeah. And it's like these, these-
Seth: Cain murdered his brother. Lamech boasts-
David: Yes
Seth: ... about how he can hurt and kill so many men-
David: Right
Seth: ... how violent he is. Like, yeah.
David: Like, these, these are the people who have stand accursed from the beginning. They are the seed of the serpent. There is a long-term spiritual battle going on in the world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that, that there are those that are owned by and c- and controlled by the dominion of, of Satan and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the serpent, and then there are those that God is pulling out of that line that are his remnant, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Abraham and Noah and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph and Moses and Israel, and he's pulling these people out. And so he's trying... What he's doing is he's-
Seth: Right
David: ... he's creating a spiritual conquest, uh, judging-
Seth: It's actually really helpful
David: ... Satan and his legions. Yeah.
Seth: It's actually really helpful because even now as a product of modern culture, I understand, yes, Satan and demons, they need to be destroyed.
David: Right. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: But what I don't think as a modern person is that Satan and demons are actually, like, controlling and are actually the power behind the powers that work in the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, people and nations are opposed to God because they are animated by dark spiritual forces.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And-
David: And I would say wil- willingly animated.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah. Not, it's not like Satan's, like, overpowering them.
David: That's right.
Seth: Although, in a sense, like, that does happen as well. Like, there's, like, this... Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so what's helpful for me as you said that was what we're seeing here is on one sense, like, a physical war between two nations, but on a r- on a maybe even more true sense, it's actually a battle between two spiritual forces.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Between God's kingdom and the kingdoms of darkness. So Paul will pick up on this and s- talk about how Jesus triumphed over the principalities and powers of the air.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what we're seeing is that, that picture of, like, the spiritual battle is actually playing out in these two nations. Is that what you're kinda saying? That actually helps me-
David: Yes, definitely
Seth: ... a little bit here. Okay.
David: Yeah. And I, and I think another way to think about it is, uh, let's think about the flood, right? So God had created the world to be very good, and that his glory would cover it, and that it would be a paradise for his people made in his image, and, um, th- the whole Earth began to corrupt that good creation and work against it. And in order to save his good creation and, and make it good, God, uh, utterly destroyed all the Earth except for this small remnant of Noah and his family.
Seth: Right.
David: That's the same thing in a microcosm of what happened in the macrocosm of the flood, that this- these people groups in the land of Canaan are polluting the world through idol worship, adultery, sin, child sacrifice. They're doing horrible, horrible things that are not intended to be in God's good world, and so God is coming and bringing-
Seth: Right
David: ... Israel as a tool, like he did the flood, in order to put an end to them, to judge them, and to purify his land for himself, to make his creation good again. And so that's kind of also-
Seth: And you can-
David: ... what's happening, is there's this meta-narrative of, of new creation that God's trying to pull off here.
Seth: And you can actually see that in the text. Like, we w- talk way crazy about, "Let's go all the way back to Genesis, and let's talk about the flood." Which, in the text, what actually you see is the instruments of the temple are brought out of the temple and put on the front lines of the military. God's covenant.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, his, his mercy seat, the trumpets are brought out. Why? Because God's spiritual temple, his kingdom, is actually advancing forward. Like, this is a spiritual battle. Like, the Lord will be worshiped in all nations. Like, that's what's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... happening.
David: Yeah. Okay. So I think that's some good context, both kind of, uh, canonically and maybe contextually here. Now let's dive into what is really the hardest part of this text, um, i- if we can. So, um, Israel goes in and, um, and utterly destroys the Midianites. I mean, they own it. We'll talk about, we'll talk, probably unpack later, um, how not even one man died.
Seth: Yep.
David: One Israelite died in this battle.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um, and so they go in, and they just, they, they demolish the Midianites, and they kill every, um, male, um, adult in the land. And then they take as bounty, uh, uh, as plunder, um, all the children, women, livestock, and goods that are in the land, and they take it-
Seth: Yep
David: ... to them. And what they're doing is they're obeying the laws for holy war that, uh, were set forth in Deuteronomy, I think, like, 20 or something like that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And they're obeying those things, but then they come back to the camp, and Moses and all the leaders are there, and the text says that Moses is angry with them. And we're like, "Uh-oh," because every time in Numbers that Moses is angry, it's God is angry and everyone's about to get judged.
Seth: Right.
David: So what's gonna happen? And, and what came, what, what it came down to was a discussion about how to interpret the law and what type of war this was. Was this the type of war that everything was to be committed to destruction, which other laws talk about, or is this one of those times-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... whenever only the men are to be committed to destruction, and everything else taken as bounty? And so the question was, is it one or the other, or is there some kind of compromise in the middle? And what they come to is a compromise in the middle, right?
Seth: Right.
David: They, they come to this compromise, and this is where the hard part is. They come to this place where they say, "Okay, um, all of the men have already been killed, but let's also kill the young m- young males," so young male boys.
Seth: Right.
David: And then-
Seth: So would that have been, like, fighting age, like, boys or, like, infants, ki- like, kids?
David: It, it kinda sounds like every single male in the-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in, in the land. Um, and then-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and then also any woman who has slept with a Midianite. So the only people who are allowed to live are women who are virgins.
Seth: Okay.
David: And that includes baby, baby girls all the way up to older women who haven't married or ha- had, had sex with a Midianite.
Seth: And, and verse 16 tells you, uh, Moses' reasoning. He says, "Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously," talking about the women who had been, um, ha- had been married previously, "acted treacherously against the Lord in the incident of Peor. And so the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore, kill." So the idea here is you spared women and men, and they were the cause, or particularly women in this case, and they were the cause of-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the plague at Peor.
David: Right.
Seth: And you've kept them alive, and that's a problem because the same thing's gonna happen again if they-
David: Right
Seth: ... remain alive.
David: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Seth: So-
David: And so it's kind of like a, a total, uh, command for what God commanded earlier that Phinehas, uh, obeyed, you know, whenever he was like, "Kill everyone who's been an adulterer," and they didn't, and so the plague broke out and killed all the older generation until Phinehas came and actually did kill the adulterers, and then the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... plague stopped.
Seth: So what we have here then is an opportunity for the new generation to act in a way that the old generation-
David: That's right
Seth: ... didn't.
David: Yep.
Seth: So let's just name what it sounds like.
David: Yep.
Seth: It sounds like God is commanding Israel to kill women and children and plunder the virgins for themselves so that they have some sort of sexual partner as a-
David: Right
Seth: ... booty of war.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what it sounds like.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We should own the fact that God is commanding the slaughter of children, male children, and the slaughter of married women.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's not so that Israelite soldiers get free sex.
David: Right.
Seth: We should, we should name that.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the reason why that's the case is because, again, the, this is a spiritual battle about spiritual adultery and how that works itself out in nations, in peoples, in marriages, in relationships. And what, what happened in the o- in the Old Testament, or just this time in general, boys would always carry on the family name. They would carry on-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the family line. So if any male child was allowed to live, Midianites would continue to live in the land. Representatives of a pagan anti, like, a God-hating nation would continue-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to live. And women [lips smack] who had already been married, if they married another I- uh, Israelite man, that firstborn child would've been from the line of their father, considered another Midianite.
David: Right.
Seth: So if an Israelite and marries a previously married woman, uh, that firstborn child will belong to the father and be an heir of Midian, an heir-
David: Right
Seth: ... of a kingdom that was opposed to God.
David: 'Cause the Israelite would've been acting as the kinsman redeemer almost of that, uh, Midianite man who died in war.
Seth: Which-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... right. Which is-
David: I understand. Okay
Seth: ... probably a thing that we need to... Kinsman redeemer just means, like, that would mean that Israel is actually purchasing redemption somehow for a person that hates God, and we've been told that God redeems those that love him and trust him. So it's like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... antithetical to the way the covenant God has set up already.
David: Right.
Seth: So that, that doesn't negate the horror of what's going on.
David: No.
Seth: Like, that, that doesn't make it sound less harsh.
David: No.
Seth: It does tell-
David: And I don't think it's supposed to. [laughs]
Seth: No, I think you're supposed to read this and be like, "Oh."
David: Ouch. Yeah.
Seth: Like, this is probably... I mean, I, I can't tell if, like, this is just me as a modern reader saying this is one of the worst things I've read so far, or if anybody at any time would've felt that. I mean, the Israelites didn't kill the children and women in the beginning.
David: That's right.
Seth: Right? Like, c- because they knew that that's not-
David: How things go
Seth: ... how things go. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... this is a, a very intense command.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, I, what I kinda wanna do here is maybe you can help me. Like, give me an intense reason. Like, help me to feel why God's holiness or God's, the worship of God is worth this.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I was thinking one thing that might help, and then you can kind of respond with a, with a way that's probably also helpful as you think. But I mean, the first thing I thought of, uh, kinda came up w- with, um, uh, our community group, um, here in Oklahoma City. Uh, we had a, we had a, a couple who had been in conversation with some friends of theirs that wanted to become Christians but were hung up on passages like these, that, um, they just couldn't believe in a God who would command the m- the, the, the death of children. Um, and I was like, "Okay, let's talk about this, and we're gonna talk about it, uh, you know, in all its details, and we're gonna get real." And you know, you were there for that talk, Seth, before you moved to Kansas City. Uh, but the first thing I said, and it, this is harsh, so just kinda put your harsh pants on. But, uh-
Seth: Harsh pants
David: ... I think, I think it's, I think it's helpful.
Seth: Your raw denim.
David: Your raw denim.
Seth: This is a raw denim conversation. [laughs]
David: Raw denim conversation, is that, uh, Christians believe in a God and in a Jesus who consigns individuals to eternal conscious torment in hell. And that-
Seth: Not all Christians believe that.
David: Not all Christians believe that, but that has been a mainline evangelical Christian belief for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. Uh-
Seth: And before evangelical-
David: I mean-
Seth: ... was a term-
David: Yeah. It's, it's-
Seth: ... church fathers believed it.
David: Yes, yes.
Seth: John Calvin believed it. The Reformers have believed it.
David: Yep.
Seth: The Catholic Church has believed it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But, like, like, a historic-
David: It seemed, it seemed like Jesus-
Seth: ... Christian-
David: ... and, [laughs] and Paul believed it. Yeah.
Seth: A historic Christian- ... faith has always held out some type of eternal conscious torment.
David: Yes. It seems like Revelation 19, which you read at the top of the episode, believes it, you know, these kinds of things, and this eternal smoke that comes up. Anyway, uh, and so I was like really, um, uh, the, the bigger issue we have to deal with as Christians is, is do we, you know, do we believe in a hell, and that God is, is good and just to consign sinners who don't repent to this place? Because really that's the harder question than this one, uh, that is just one people group. The, the, the... when we're talking about the whole world throughout all time. This is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... one people group and one time. And so all, all I'm saying is that this is not the, uh, Jenga block that makes the tower fall in-
Seth: You're s- what you're saying-
David: ... in biblical theology
Seth: ... is like if you're, if you're hung up on this idea, you're actually hung up on the idea of hell.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like-
David: You're hung up on God's justice in general
Seth: ... so maybe then, like the way to talk about it is, like, well, if you're struggling with this passage and God condemning... Well, I mean, but even, like will there be children in hell?
David: Hmm, I mean, that's a great question. The- we have no way of knowing, and I said this to the group when they asked this, we have no way of knowing that the children of Midian who died, uh, by the hand of Israel will be separated from God forever in hell. We have no way of knowing that because, uh, the, an early death is sometimes pictured in the Bible as an act of God's grace to keep people-
Seth: Right
David: ... from sinning to the point where they have apostatized to no return. And so what God-
Seth: An example of that-
David: ... could have been doing... Sorry, go ahead.
Seth: Well, I was just gonna say an example of what you're talking about is when David sins with Bathsheba and has, has that, her child with, with, uh, David, and that child dies. David says that when he dies, he will go to see his son.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like there's this... So David seemed to believe that when he died, he would be reunited with the child that never had a chance to obey the covenant, never had a chance to trust in Yahweh, but the Lord preserved that, that child's life.
David: Right.
Seth: So what you're saying is actually maybe the killing of these children is not consigning them to hell forever-
David: Right
Seth: ... to experience justice for s- crimes they did not commit.
David: Exactly.
Seth: It was God's way of showing them mercy.
David: Yes.
Seth: That doesn't really, if you don't believe in heaven or hell, that doesn't solve that-
David: No
Seth: ... but it is helpful context. Like s-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... maybe that's what's going on he- going on here.
David: Yeah. Absolu- absolutely. And, and so, um, anyway, so what, what... So go back to your question, uh, why is God worth so much worship or why is the worship of God worth this kind of judgment? I thought that was a, a, a good question. Like why is God's holiness worth it? And like, yeah, I, I guess I think those are the two things to kind of put in tension with one another, and I think a few of the things we have to think about is, one, God's goodness is far better than we could ever imagine. It's just, it, his purity is far more pure than we could ever imagine. His, his hatred of sin is far greater than we could ever imagine, you know? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the, the, like our barometer for getting angry about injustice in the world, however, um, however, uh, much of a bleeding heart we might have, pales in comparison to what God feels when the smallest injustice is, is committed. Like what we might-
Seth: I'm trying to think of an analogy
David: ... feel over like... Yeah, go ahead.
Seth: I'm trying to think of an, an analogy for us. Like we would consider, like democracy or human rights to be this like ultimate good, and if there's a nation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that's ignoring human rights or, like oppressing its people and ruling authoritatively or to, in a, or, uh, is it totalitarian-
David: Yeah. Yeah
Seth: ... we would use that as a cause. No, that nation needs justice.
David: Right.
Seth: And we would see that potentially as, uh, a moment for intervention.
David: Right.
Seth: We will send our military to free-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that people from that. And so, so I think, so what you're saying here then is actually this, um, holy war is a way for God to bring his justice to the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is that what you're saying?
David: Absolutely. I think it's a great, um, analogy. Obviously, the only caveat I'd give to it is we're not really... That, like I think what God does here doesn't sanction what America might do in Iran or something.
Seth: Yes.
David: Neither does it sanction things like the Crusades. This is a one-time thing for a, a covenant people in a specific place at a specific time. But as analogies go, and as you're trying to get at people's hearts, I think that is a way of understanding how military, other countries, justice, oppression, sin work together in the world-
Seth: Right
David: ... that when there is a country that is being ruled by ISIS or something like that, which is a fa- you know, a false god-
Seth: Right
David: ... a false religion oppressing its people, child sacrifice, all these things are operating in the world today. We're like, "Come on, America, let's do something," or, "Come on, UN, let's do something." Like, why is no one doing anything? Why did we let Hitler go on for so long without intervening in World War, in World War II, you know? Like-
Seth: So here's the jump that you need to make as a reader of the Bible is that distrusting God, not worshiping Yahweh is a, is as great a sin as a violation of human rights.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's not... It's greater than that. [laughs]
David: It's greater than that, yeah.
Seth: It's greater than that. Like the way that we feel when we see ISIS slaughtering people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like slaughtering Muslims and Christians, is the way we should feel when God is not worshiped.
David: Yes.
Seth: And like we, uh, that's the brain that I have to continually put on-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because I don't think that way normally.
David: Right.
Seth: When I come to read this text, I don't see, well, Midian just doesn't believe in God. Like, well, they're like my non-believing neighbor. I should go invite them over-
David: Oh
Seth: ... for dinner, you know?
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: Like, and I should talk to them about Jesus, and I should show kindness and compassion and, like share the gospel with them. Like, that's how I think about non-believers. But it, it, on the last day, when God's kingdom will come, like judgment also comes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Justice also comes, and if they are not trusting Jesus, what they are doing is far worse- They don't trust the Lord is far worse than abuse of human rights-
David: Right
Seth: ... or totalitarianly ruling a country or gassing Jews. Like, God is greater of wor- is worthy of worship-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and everything else is injustice.
David: Right. Yeah, I think that's a helpful way to talk about it. Um, it's really hard to hear, but it also, like... I, I, I remember another thing. We prayed pretty hard before this passage [laughs] before coming on air, and one of the other things we prayed about was, like, "God, let this text lead us, um, to, like, yeah, like sh- show us how we, how much we need Jesus," which I know we need to get to, but also, like, "Let it make us fear you." Like, the fear of the Lord that the Bible talks about is something that is just so far from the modern mind that texts like these help us-
Seth: Far from my mind. [laughs]
David: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, far from my mind. I'm included in that. And texts like these whip me into it, and I think our, our tendency is to be offended by it instead of embracing it and saying, like, "Man, God is way bigger and way more powerful and way more worthy than I ever even come close to considering."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think texts like these force us to either be offended and run away or submit in fear, and it's-
Seth: Exactly right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I, so I think we, like, shorten or, like, we don't have a big enough vision of who God is and what injustice against him looks like, but we also, when we come to passages like this, we stop too soon. We assume that God's plan destroying Midian is so that Israel gets to live in that land.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: We assume that's what's happening, and so [laughs] well, all they wanted was, like, virgins to sleep with, so that's why this war is happening. You know, they wanted to be the only ethno-religious power in the region. That's God's plan. False.
David: False. Very false.
Seth: So one of the things that you have to realize is people have been thinking about these passages for thousands of years, and so the prophets of Israel, and Isaiah and Amos in particular, would read these passages, and they would read them as evidence of God's desire to include the entire world in his-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... covenant, which sounds crazy, but go back to the promise that God made to Abram in Genesis 15. God promised Abram that he would be a king of a nation and that his kingdom, when it reigns the w- when it reigns, everyone will be blessed.
David: Mm.
Seth: So right now, Midian is threatening the establishment of a kingdom that allows everyone to be blessed. If Midian ruled the world, only Midian would be blessed. But if-
David: Right
Seth: ... God's kingdom rules the world, everyone will be blessed. Midian is a threat to true justice, true peace, true, um, like, true... Yeah, shalom is the word.
David: Yeah, shalom. Yeah.
Seth: It's like, it's a threat to what is good and right. Only God's kingdom can bring blessings to everybody. That's why the punishment is so harsh, and that's what, exactly what Isaiah says. In Isaiah 19:16-25, it says that when we s- well, they will strike Egypt, their great oppressor, but he will strike and heal Egypt.
David: Mm.
Seth: Which is crazy. I th- I had never noticed that before, but it's a s- verse 22, "He will strike and heal." Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in killing the oppressors, he actually heals the oppressors, too, and brings them into the covenant. Amos brings it up in-
David: Right
Seth: ... uh, Amos chapter 9:12, and then Paul says it again in Acts 15:15. When God's, when the Holy Spirit falls and the church starts spreading, he's saying, "This is the fulfillment of A- Amos 9. This is the fulfillment of what Numbers was talking about. The world, the nations that used to oppress us are now part of God's covenant people."
David: Yeah.
Seth: I talked for a long time.
David: And I think-
Seth: Did that make sense?
David: Dude, no, it was so good. Yeah, that's so helpful, and I think we see this in the text. So let's kind of... We kind of get to close a circle here after what you just said because why were the virgin women kept alive among everybody? Because they were incorporated into the people of Israel-
Seth: Mm. Right
David: ... so that they might bear Yahweh-fearing sons and daughters.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, a new people group, uh, is, is being incorporated into the people group of Israel. Like, they're being-
Seth: Right
David: ... the Midianites who would have died in the land, who would've been eternally separated from God and left to their own devices and completely forgotten, completely condemned. By God-
Seth: Right
David: ... striking them, they are saved and brought in to bear children and generation after generation of generation of people who will live with God forever. Like, God is-
Seth: Heirs
David: ... reversing the curse here.
Seth: That's, that's cool. I think heirs of the promise. Like, I've never thought about it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that way before, but, like, normal, it's like, oh, like, biological heirs of Abraham are heirs of the promise. No, and then even, like you had said, well, the heirs of Israel, but actually there's all these other nations that are being-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... included in.
David: Right.
Seth: And now Midianites are heirs-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to the promise.
David: Right.
Seth: And Cushites are heirs of the promise. Whenever-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this happens, like, they're incorporated into... That's fascinating.
David: Yeah. When the-
Seth: I'm excited
David: ... virgins come and join the people of Israel, and since they are not killed, uh, we see the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham in Genesis 12:1, like, that all nations are going to be blessed. Now the Midianites get to be blessed, and it looks like they're cursed, but it's, "I will strike you and heal you," like you read earlier. I think that's a really helpful way to think about this. Um, okay. Let's kind of talk about... Before we... There's a couple other things in this passage I kinda wanna, wanna talk about, but before we do that and while we're still in this tension, uh, let's talk about how badly we need Jesus [laughs] and, like, how Jesus fulfills all of this because, I mean, it's texts like these that, yes, make me fear God, but in the fear of the Lord, it makes me run to Jesus and how badly I need him because-
Seth: Right
David: ... I mean, at the end of the day, I am a Midi- a Midianite male waging war against Yahweh. I was his enemy. I was opposed to him. I hated him. I would've never believed him or turned to him, and this is, like, Ephesians 2 stuff, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: I was his enemy, controlled... We talked about this. I was c- I was controlled by the prince of the power of the air. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... right? That's what Ephesians 2 talks about. Like, I was a demonic agent opposed to God and his plans, and I deserve to have the, the, the army of the Lord come against me and take my life.
Seth: You should remember that the people that were reading this were primarily Jewish, and then later they were Gentile.
David: Right.
Seth: I mean, at the same time, I mean, there's probably always that case. So if you're, if you have a mixed audience reading the book of Numbers- The old generation in Israel applies to all ethnic Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Midianite applies to everybody else. Like, we, well, as we were walking through the first half of the book, it's like, aren't we like-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... ethnic Israel?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Aren't we complaining? Aren't we distrusting? Totally fair. That intended audience was for people a part of God's covenant community. This is actually written for us, like people outside of God's covenant community, saying, "This is you apart from God." So my point there is God's judgment isn't just, like, ethnically based against Midianites. It's actually on his own people, and it was on his own people first. God's judgments are over everyone.
David: Yes. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's helpful to talk about. Um, and so-
Seth: So then, so what you were saying then-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like if God's just over everyone, we all need rescue.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, what happened? Like, why is Israel, the new generation, being spared? Like, on what basis?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: If the old generation is dying, and if the gentile nations around them are dying, how do we escape? How did the new generation escape? And that's how we escape, too.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So maybe answer that question, like how is the new generation-
David: How is the new generation
Seth: ... s- being saved?
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, they're being saved, I guess, through, uh, faith in Yahweh, that he w- he will do what he promised he would do, that he would bring them into the land. It, because the problem that, uh, I guess the, the chief sin that the older generation committed at the border of Canaan was disbelief.
Seth: Right.
David: That they-
Seth: Over and over again-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... throughout Numbers, what are we told? Disbelief-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is the underlying cause of the, the bronze serpent, of all the plagues. It's disbelief.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you're just-
David: And so, yeah, so the younger generation believes that God will do what he says he does, and that belief leads to action, right? It lead... Like, belief-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... always leads to action. If I believe a chair will hold me, I sit in it, you know? Like, that's just-
Seth: It leads to holy war in this passage.
David: Right. In this passage, uh, you know, in, in the story of Phinehas, it leads to him, you know, uh, putting to death the adulterers. Like, so it leads to obedience. Um, and so the, the, uh, the younger generation is doing what this, the, this old hymn says, "Trust and obey-"
Seth: [laughs]
David: "... for there's no other way." Yeah. Anyway. That's, uh-
Seth: But the, but-
David: That's, I guess that's my answer
Seth: ... what's great about that-
David: And like-
Seth: I mean, w- and that's the gospel. Like, you are saved-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... from God's justice either as an Israelite or as a gentile by trusting the promises of God and obeying God. Like, that's it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, there's no-
David: Right
Seth: ... extra step. You don't have to be part of a special ethnolinguistic group. You just need to trust the Lord.
David: Right. And that's kind of what Jesus comes to us and says for us to do. Like, "Do you trust me, uh, that I will bring you into the new heavens and the new earth? Do you, do you trust me that I will bring you out of this wilderness of the world that you currently live in and bring you into the eternal kingdom of God?" Uh, of which Canaan was only a type and a shadow. Like, "Do you have faith that I will return and conquest the world as Israel conquest Canaan, and, uh, purify it from all sin, and adultery, and human rights violations, and sickness, and, and hate, and, and-"
Seth: Right
David: "... do you believe that I will put you and prepare you to live in this world with me?" And, like, it's just an act of faith.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Do we believe that, yes or no? And that if we say yes, that does lead us to live our lives as a light to the world, as Israel was supposed to be in the land of Canaan, as a Mount Zion in the middle of the world to which all nations would flock.
Seth: I wanna walk back something I just said. I said, "All you need-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to do is just trust and obey." Trusting and obeying is, like, the hardest thing-
David: [laughs] Yeah
Seth: ... the Bible asks you to do.
David: Yes. That's good.
Seth: So, like, just trusting and obeying is actually profoundly difficult.
David: Yeah.
Seth: One of the reasons why spoken gospel exists is because we believe the gospel needs to be heard on every page of the Bible, otherwise you'll forget it.
David: Right.
Seth: I tell my kids every night, like I r- I do like a gospel catechism with my kids every night.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they, every night now, they ask, "Dad, why do you always do this?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I always tell them, "Because you'll forget."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they're like, "No, I won't." I'm like, "Yes, you will."
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: Like, that's like, it's like an extra catechism. But what, um, one of the things that trust in the Lord demands of us, and this is where it's gonna be hard for us as modern readers, is to hate what God hates.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And to have the same disposition towards his enemies that he does. Trusting God doesn't just mean hoping for all the good stuff, for human rights to be everywhere in the world. It actually means hating idolatry. Like, trusting that his emotions or his moral judgments are actually good, and celebrating with him. Like, that is the heart of trust, particularly in this passage. The new generation trusted God, and they hated what God hated.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So do we do the same?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Let's just-
David: Yeah. I'm glad you walked that back, 'cause it's so true. I mean, I'm reminded of Hebrews, I think it's 4, that talks about this very book whenever it says that, uh, you know, Israel, um, when they were on the border of Canaan, did- refused to enter the land because their hearts were hard and they forgot Go- uh, like they didn't, they forgot to trust God. And so he says, "Take care, brothers, lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin leading you to fall away from the living God." It's like take care every day. He tells us to, like, meet with other brothers and sisters in Christ. Like, have them admonish you, and correct you, and remind you daily, because if you don't, you'll forget and fall away just like Israel did in the wilderness. And so i- it's a really, it's a really good point to make here. Um, i- is there, is there something to be said here about how, um, Jesus was conquested for us?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, I, I just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I, the closest I love, uh, our m- our Pastor Sam, um, I guess he's now my Pastor Sam. He's not your... Y- you've left, you've left Bridgeway to-
Seth: He's a spiritual father, but no longer-
David: Spiritual father
Seth: ... my pastor.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but so Sam, he, he says that, I, I love that when he talks about this, he's like, "The closest I will ever get-" To experiencing the judgment of God that is talked about in these passages with the conquest of Midian is reading about these passages, the conquest of Midian.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, like God's judgment will never come upon me because it has, not because it's disappeared or because it's no longer needed or because he got over it. It's because all of that judgment, all of this death and, and justice that was brought upon the people of Midian h- was fully poured out on the person of Jesus, that Jesus was conquested so that he could redeem me and, um, and bring me into the family of Israel and not leave me in the family of Midian.
Seth: So that Midianites like us could actually be a part of the blessed world.
David: Yes. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that we could be virgin brides before God, like he makes us in Christ. We're pure, spotless brides of Christ to be incorporated into his family, just like these virgins were, uh, for Midian. Like, that's a cool image too. I, I really like that.
Seth: Yeah, this will never happen again because-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... if you are in Christ.
David: If you're in Christ.
Seth: If you are in Christ, this never happens again.
David: Yeah. I think it would be good then too to kinda come around with a warning, uh, and kind of land in Revelation 19 again, that this will happen again through Christ. Um, and, and w- we're promised that the second coming of Jesus, uh, will bring great salvation. The day of the Lord will bring great salvation.
Seth: The final holy war.
David: Yeah, but it-
Seth: The final holy war
David: ... but it will also bring the final holy war, where, where Jesus ends all d- all, um, all sin and evil in the world and those who propagate it, uh, and those who have-
Seth: Right
David: ... not hidden themselves in him, who have not been wed into his family as, as these virgins were. And so, uh, it's just a, it's a warning to us too that, like, the, the final conquest is coming, but there is salvation and escape and freedom from that in Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, all- and so, like you said, all you have to do, [laughs] i- but seriously, is just put your faith in Jesus, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he was conquested for you so you never have to be.
Seth: A lot of people say, "I can't believe in a God who would do something as terrible as Numbers 31 describes." But the question really is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... can you believe in a God who would rather experience that himself than for you? And if you can believe in that God-
David: Right
Seth: ... you can trust a little bit more easily that Numbers 31 and Revelation 19 are good news for you. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
