Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, hey, everyone. Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Yes, indeed.
David: And the Book of Numbers.
Seth: It's a great day to count.
David: It's a great day to count. And, uh-
Seth: One, two-
David: That's the wor- [laughs]
Seth: ... three-
David: It's the-
Seth: ... four, five
David: ... let's start... Let's lean into this.
Seth: 2,000. [laughs]
David: Because the Book of Numbers is not about numbers, right?
Seth: It's not.
David: It's going to feel like that today.
Seth: Because the first three chapters are-
David: Because the f- yeah
Seth: ... all, all, all about numbers.
David: All about numbers.
Seth: But I think the Hebrew title-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for this is, I think it's Bemidbar.
David: Okay.
Seth: Maybe. I'm... My Hebrew is non-existent.
David: Yeah, my Hebrew is horrible.
Seth: Uh, but it, it just means in the wilderness.
David: In the wilderness, yeah.
Seth: Which is a much better-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a far more interesting title.
David: And it's way more indicative-
Seth: There's literally a movie
David: ... of what actually happens in the wi- uh, in this book
Seth: ... there's a movie with Eric Bana. It's called Into the Wild.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Yeah, it's, it's a book-
David: Right, and you're like, "Ooh"
Seth: ... written by... It's like, ooh, it's so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it, so interesting.
David: Yeah. Who wrote Into the Wild?
Seth: Um, that, that guy.
David: It wasn't Jack London. Who was it? It was-
Seth: Um, no, it's that other guy.
David: I can't remember.
Seth: Krakauer?
David: Oh, yeah. I think that's right.
Seth: Is it, is it Krakauer?
David: I can picture the cover of the book, and I'm trying-
Seth: I can too. [laughs]
David: ... to, like, see his name. Anyway, um, but yeah, um, I- Into the Wilderness, or In the Wilderness is... [laughs] I said Into the Wilderness.
Seth: Into the Wilderness.
David: Into, into the, Into the Wild.
Seth: Just change the preposition, that's fine.
David: Uh, is a really, is a really good title for the book [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is its original title, because this book, uh, chronicles what happens in the wilderness.
Seth: Right.
David: Um, and so broadly speaking, what happens in Numbers is the people... Uh, we start out and the people are at Sinai.
Seth: And they travel.
David: And they travel to the Promised Land. It takes them, like, two weeks-
Seth: If they were to do it straight
David: ... or, you know, like, if they were to do it straight. They just... And it's like in the... I- and when you read it, it takes, like, a, like two and a half chapters to get from the camp to Canaan.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like, "Oh, they're there. Promised Land, here we go."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And they send the spies in. The spies are like, "There's giants there. We can't go in." So they don't trust God, and they leave. And it's, and so they, they will not enter into the Promised Land, and so God pronounces a curse on the older generation, the men 20 and up, who were about to meet. They're counted in this census-
Seth: Right
David: ... at the beginning. They will not enter the Promised Land, but the younger generation will. And so, um, there's this ironic statement that they make at the land of Canaan, and they say, "I wish we would've just died in the wilderness instead of having to go into the Promised Land and die by the sword of these Canaanites."
Seth: And then-
David: And God says, "Okay, I'll give you what you wish for."
Seth: If that's really what you want.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so God gives them the desires of their heart-
Seth: Yeah [laughs]
David: ... and they end up dying in the wilderness. And, and so from that point on, there's this cycle, uh, that actually starts, um, already, that, uh, we'll look at a little bit probably today.
Seth: Cycle.
David: Um, but it plays out over and over and over again, this cycle of God gives commands.
Seth: Okay.
David: And he says, "Do this and you'll live."
Seth: Right.
David: And, you know, "This is what I want for you." The older generation disobeys, and so God breaks out in a bunch of really unique punishments. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, this is where, like, the sna- the, the snake-
David: Yep, mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the bronze serpent-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and all that kind of stuff.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: Snakes come, the ground opens up, fireballs shoot out from the tabernacle, plagues break out. There's all these different kinds of ways that the people die.
Seth: Exciting. Exciting.
David: So exciting.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I mean, this is like an action movie. The Book of Numbers is like an action movie.
Seth: It's like, it's like they're traveling through... I always, I was like, uh, I, I think the Bible project describes it, like, as a travelogue. Like, their adventures as they're traveling to their...
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then my first thought, I was, like, thinking of, like, Anthony Bourdain going somewhere.
David: [laughs] Right. Too soon.
Seth: I was like... [laughs] Too s- I think it was yesterday, was the anniversary of his death.
David: Oh, was it?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Oh, man. It's been a year.
Seth: Yeah. And so my first thought was like, oh, they're just gonna be, like, eating different foods-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and parade-
David: Not quite
Seth: ... and they're gonna go experience this culture over here in Midian, and it's gonna be-
David: Nope.
Seth: Nope, that's not.
David: Nope, they just die.
Seth: That's... [laughs]
David: And so punishment breaks out. Uh, and then the fourth part of the cycle is, um, intercession. And so either Moses or Aaron, or once the, once the handoff happens and the new generation takes over, a guy named Phinehas.
Seth: Phinehas.
David: Yeah, mm-hmm. Uh, they step in and do something to intercede for the people of God, to stop the plague, to close the ground, to stop the fire, to heal people from snake bites, and then it all starts again. And-
Seth: Phinehas does all that?
David: Phinehas stops the plague by stabbing someone with a javelin.
Seth: Oh.
David: Two people with a javelin.
Seth: Oh, wow. [laughs]
David: I'm telling you, it's like an action movie. There's, like... People are like, "That's in Numbers?"
Seth: I mean-
David: I'm like, "Yeah, it is." And it's so... It's like, it really is a very interesting book. You just have to get through the first three chapters.
Seth: If you didn't like Anthony Bourdain, you will like this. [laughs]
David: You will, you'll like Numbers. Um, and so anyway, and so then you'll see it again. It, it all starts over again. After the intercession, God then comes with new commands. And, um, it's supposed to, like, have ratcheted down the people and their rebellion and say, "Okay, you did this and you disobeyed, so I'm gonna give you more commands to help you not disobey again so there won't be punishment."
Seth: Okay.
David: But they break it anyway.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's more punishment. There's more intercession, so there's more commands.
Seth: Right.
David: And, um, that's the cycle that we see. And so I think the other way-
Seth: So-
David: The... Yeah, go ahead. Yep
Seth: ... let's pause. Okay, so, so there's this cycle that's happening.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But, like, in the broader story, what's hap- so God has created a family in Abraham-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that through Abraham, all the nations of the world will be blessed.
David: Right.
Seth: This family goes into slavery.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God rescues them out of slavery.
David: And there's... And let... And it's important to note, there's 70 people ... that go into slavery. Like they go-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or not into slavery, but into Egypt.
Seth: Into Egypt, yeah.
David: So Jacob and his sons and his household.
Seth: Have 70.
David: There's 70 in all.
Seth: 70 people.
David: And that's what Genesis says at the end.
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: And then they go into slavery. God rescues them out of slavery-
David: Right
Seth: ... and then doesn't just keep, doesn't define them as a family anymore, but defines them as a nation.
David: Yeah, because during that time of slavery, we read in Exodus 1, even under great persecution, they were fruitful and multiplied-
Seth: Just like the Gar-
David: ... and they grew into a great number
Seth: ... just like the Garden of Eden.
David: That's right.
Seth: So now God has made a covenant, made a rela- made this co- this covenant with Israel.
David: Right, which we get at the end of Exodus, yep.
Seth: They are now his people and a holy nation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So it's transformed from a family to a nation.
David: That's right.
Seth: And in order to have a nation, you need land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: And to piggyback on all the Genesis imagery that we've seen off since Genesis 1, they need a new Eden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the people of God now have God's presence-
David: Right
Seth: ... dwelling in the middle of them.
David: Because of Leviticus.
Seth: Because of Leviticus.
David: Right.
Seth: Because they have this code of conduct where God's presence is allowed to dwell in the middle of the camp.
David: Yep.
Seth: We'll actually see it, like, played out symbolically or, like-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... geographically here in Numbers.
David: Big time.
Seth: But God's presence dwells in the middle of the camp, and he will lead them to the new Eden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So they're on their way to the new Eden, and as they are on the way to the new Eden, they continue to hit up against this cycle of commands, disobedience, prayer, failure, and rescue.
David: Punishment.
Seth: Punishment.
David: Right, yep. Yeah, and so-
Seth: That's what... So that's, that's, that's hap-
David: Yeah, that's what's happening
Seth: ... that's what's happening.
David: That's what's happening in the broader narrative.
Seth: We're on the way to the new-
David: Right.
Seth: That's, we're on the way to n- the new Eden.
David: Yep.
Seth: But-
David: And on the way to the new Eden, we keep committing the sins of Eden. Like-
Seth: The same-
David: The same, the same-
Seth: ... from Genesis 3
David: ... the same problem from Genesis 3, where God gave a command, "Don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they did, and so there were punishment, but then God himself interceded-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and said, um, you know, Genesis 3:15, that the, uh, uh, uh, one from Eve's seed will come and crush the head of the serpent. Like, there w- and he clothed them with, with clothes. And so even God himself intercedes there. So-
Seth: Okay, so it's a cycle-
David: ... same kind of cycle
Seth: ... s- a cycle of Genesis 3 over-
David: Over and over
Seth: ... and over again on the, in the wilderness-
David: Right
Seth: ... on the way to the new Eden.
David: Right, which is why the older generation can't get in, because they are committing the same sins that kicked them out of the garden to begin with.
Seth: Right.
David: Um, yep.
Seth: So at the beginning of Numbers, you're hopeful that, okay, we are, the people have been saved.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: It's a new nation.
David: Oh, big time.
Seth: The Holy Spirit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God's presence is dwelling in the middle of our people. He's leading us and guiding us with clouds of smoke.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Moses and Aaron are established as rulers and people after God's heart who speak to him face to face. We're like, "Okay, we can do it."
David: Yeah, and, uh, and the opening 10 chapters-
Seth: The new Eden
David: ... yeah.
Seth: The temple is carved with all these special, uh-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... like-
David: Eden imagery
Seth: ... Eden imagery of-
David: Yep
Seth: ... fruit trees-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and animals. It's like, "We can do this."
David: Yep.
Seth: "This is happening. The new Eden is coming."
David: Right, and the opening 10 chapters are extremely optimistic.
Seth: Of Numbers.
David: Everything God commands... Of, of Numbers. Everything God commands happens, um, even, even all the way to the border of Canaan, like the marching and everything, and there's a lot of commands, and all of them are met. And no one's complaining, uh, until they set out. [laughs] But, uh, it is o- overly optimistic, and you're just like, "Oh, this is gonna happen." Like, uh, I mean, it... and you would think it would. I mean, the momentum from them leaving and pa- parting the Red Sea-
Seth: Right
David: ... and then the plagues and all that, leaving there, meeting God on the mountain, having the law revealed, you know, and then, uh, setting out, it's like, there's, like, a lot of momentum going in here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so yeah, if you were somehow able to just read this with first-time eyes, you know [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: ... you would, you would be like, "Oh, yeah, here we go."
Seth: "This is happening."
David: "This is gonna happen."
Seth: And so in chapter 10, is that the first cy- the first cycle of disobedience and judgment?
David: I, I think so. I'd have to look.
Seth: Oh, you see?
David: It's like, but the first time they, the first time they sin is they set out, and immediately they start grumbling. And so they blow the trumpets. They leave Sinai, and then I think it's gonna be chapter 11, uh, God feeds them. Uh, uh, uh, let's see here.
Seth: Just like he did in Exodus.
David: Yep. So yeah, it's 11, chapter 11.
Seth: So yeah.
David: Is the people complain.
Seth: So 10 chapters of optimism, we're headed to the new Eden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and a cycle of Genesis 3-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... starts right there.
David: Yeah, I don't want you to... I want, I wanna read this. So cha- uh, chapter 11, verses one and two, the whole cycle is ex- is, is, is walked through in two, two verses. "And the people complained." If you took, if... Sorry, if you took one to 10 as the command section.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: That's the whole big command section.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then 11 to two.
Seth: Structure camp this way.
David: Or 11 to two. Yep.
Seth: Look this way. Head out this way.
David: And then, "And the people complained [laughs] in the hearing of the Lord," because God lives with them, right?
Seth: Right.
David: "So the people complained in the hearing of the Lord about their misfortunes, and when the Lord heard it, his anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some outlying parts of the camp. Then the people cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the Lord, and the fire died down." So there you have. You have commands, disobedience, they grumbled. There's punishment, God's fire burns, and then there's intercession. Moses intercedes, and the fire stops, and that happens again and again and again and again throughout Numbers.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, um, that's kind of the overall shape. I, I guess, uh, we have to also remember there's this shift that happens toward the end of Numbers-
Seth: Okay
David: ... where things start to go better.
Seth: Okay, so-
David: And that's because-
Seth: As you're reading Numbers-
David: Yep
Seth: ... you're gonna open up, open it up and see a lot of Numbers in the beginning, and we'll talk about those a little bit, but w- we're essentially gonna see, okay, this could work.
David: Uh-huh, that's right.
Seth: The, the, the, the experiment with the nation Israel-
David: [laughs] Right
Seth: ... headed to the new Eden might actually be the final one.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This might actually work. Chapter 11 comes, and you realize, no, they're still complaining and grumbling, just like they're for- just like they were doing a year ago.
David: Right, on their way to Sinai.
Seth: At, on their way to Sinai.
David: Yep.
Seth: The same thing is happening again, and God rightfully is getting [laughs] angry.
David: Right.
Seth: The, like, the hi- like the, um... Oh, sorry, like, what? It's like he's giving them less rope. Like-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... 'cause, like, beforehand, he's like, "Okay, I'll give you this. I'll give you this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and then I will punish you." But now it's like, "Okay, I promised to you-
David: Right
Seth: ... and I've given you all this, and you're complaining." The rope's a little bit shorter. Punishment comes m- More quickly-
David: More quickly
Seth: ... on the heels-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of your disobedience.
David: Right. Which, I mean, which makes sense. And I think the, the less rope metaphor works really well for Numbers because what he says about the older generation when they refuse to enter Canaan is he says, "All those who have seen all my saving works and yet have these 10 times disobeyed me, none of them will enter the land."
Seth: So that ha- that cycle happens 10 times?
David: Well, no, this is just something God says at the land of Canaan.
Seth: Oh.
David: So people have speculated, like, what were the 10 times he's referring to?
Seth: Right.
David: Or is it just a hyperbolic number, or it's just a bunch.
Seth: Or just like the 10 Commandments.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or they've broken everything I've commanded them. But basically he's like, "I gave them a long rope, and then time after time after time after time, 10 times, it's just gotten shorter, so they are not gonna be the ones that enter the land."
Seth: Right. I think Sailhamer talks about, like, the escalation in God's-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, punishment for Israel's disobedience-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as the book of, as the Pentateuch goes on.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So, like, in the beginning you have this long leash of, like, long lead time between punishment and God's judgment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as the book goes on, it gets shorter and shorter and short- shorter.
David: Mm.
Seth: Partly because God has shown increasing mercy and grace and given even greater and more lavish promises.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So disobedience is that much more egregious and that much more serious.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it just starts...
David: That is really, that's as-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it l- it do- that does feel true, and I think it is in the Torah. The crazy thing is, if you look at the Bible as a whole, though, you know, and you, and you jump to, like, Romans 3-
Seth: Yeah, the leash is infinitely long
David: ... the, the leash is infinite
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And he says that he left former sins unpunished so that they all might be [laughs] poured out on Jesus. The punishment might all be poured out on Jesus. And so, like, even though there is punishment in Numbers, I don't think we have to see that just because someone doesn't enter the Promised Land and faces the wrath of God, that they are eternally separated from him. Think about Moses. At the end of the Torah, Moses does not enter the Promised Land.
Seth: Right.
David: We're gonna see that why here in Numbers. And, uh, and yet we know that he's with God.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: He shows up at the Mount of Transfiguration.
Seth: Right.
David: I mean, he's not eternally separated from God. So I think one thing we need to remember as we read this is just because we see punishment fall on people and horrible things happen to these people for their sin, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're eternally separated from God.
Seth: Do you think it would be better, then, to describe some of the things that are happening in Numbers as the discipline of the Lord-
David: Mm-hmm. Yep
Seth: ... rather than the punishment?
David: Yeah, maybe. Uh, but I, I mean, I think that's, it's two. Uh, I think it's two sides of the same coin, that one, it is an act of punishment, and I think that word has been used a few times, so I think we should lean into it. But when we think about biblical discipline of the Lord, we know it's corrective and preventative. And so I-
Seth: Right
David: ... I, I think the punishment is accomplishing discipline.
Seth: I think-
David: I don't know. I, it might be semantics at this point. I don't know.
Seth: I don't know. I mean, I feel like, um, there's a different, there's different connot- in, at least in English-
David: There's definitely connotations
Seth: ... there's def-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... different connotations between the word punishment-
David: Right
Seth: ... and discipline. I discipline my child not because I wanna make sure he gets what he's owed-
David: Oh, I see
Seth: ... but because he, I have a plan for hi- what he... I want him to be a steward one day.
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: And so I want to form him using discipline into a mature man.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? And so I th- so I th- if you're talking about... And so maybe this is helpful because in Israel, it, it, God has made a relationship, a covenant with an entire community, and in that community, there are true fears of Yahweh and there are not. Does that make sense?
David: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Seth: Like, inside the circle of Israel, there are some... God has made a covenant with Israel, but over and over again throughout, um, the Old Testament, we'll say that there's actually an Israel within Israel.
David: Oh, yes. Right.
Seth: A true remnant, true believers within Israel. And so when God's justice comes towards Israel, to those that are truly God-fearers, it is corrective.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It is discipline.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It is making them more into the image of Yahweh. "I will be like you, and you will be my God."
David: Right.
Seth: And it, but for others who do not trust in Yahweh, it is their punishment.
David: Sure.
Seth: And it's their final one.
David: Yeah. I think it might be hard to split hairs over who's receiving what.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? Because it's like at some, at some points, like, we, I w- I think we could agree that Aaron and Moses's is discipline.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.
David: Because-
Seth: Right, right, right, right
David: ... they're, they're not utterly condemned.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But also for the nation of Israel as a whole, and even humanity as a whole, the, the punishments that happen in Numbers are discipline because we can look at them. I mean, the, the Book of Hebrews-
Seth: Right
David: ... does this. It says, "Look at the older generation in Numbers and don't be like them. They were faithless, and look what happened to them. You can escape that fate today."
Seth: Right.
David: And so we can look at the punishment that happened to those of the older generation in Numbers, and it can be discipline toward us because we can-
Seth: Right
David: ... learn from it and be corrected. And so-
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Uh, yeah, I think it's interesting. That, that's, that's, that's really good.
Seth: Yeah. Anyway, I was just trying to process. Like, do I have-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... do I have categories?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, is it all just... Like, 'cause punishment for me feels, like, penal in the sense-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... of like we have a, a system of governance that puts people into prison as punishment for their crimes. Is that all that's happening right here? Is God just meting out justice all by itself, or is there something formative he's doing? He's forming the nation of Israel, and I mean, I think we'll see that in Deuteronomy when Moses is speaking to the next generation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's saying, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." And he's speaking to the next generation and calling them to be a people, a unique people, a nation of priests-
David: Right
Seth: ... a holy priesthood, a unique priesthood. Anyway-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I think there's probably more going on here than just that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think that's, I mean, that's part of the reason why we read wisdom literature-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the Pentateuch in general, is to be-
David: Is to be corrected and formed, yeah
Seth: ... to be corrected and formed into the image and likeness of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so anyway.
David: Yeah, no, I think, I think it's helpful. And so this, uh, this cycle plays out, and then as we get closer and closer to the new generation... So if you think about it, um, throughout all this time, 40 years, throughout all this time, the younger generation is growing up, right? The older generation is dying off. So there gets to be a tipping point in Numbers where there are more people in the younger generation than the older. And as that-
Seth: Right
David: ... shift starts to happen- Things start to go better for Israel. Instead of losing all their wars, they kind of start winning some. Instead of always disobeying God, they start obeying him every now and then. Instead of God not being with them, we're told that God is with them. And so there's like these-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these little signs that the, that the promise that God made to the younger generation at the border of Canaan is going to come true. And so-
Seth: What-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what's the promise he made at the border of Ca- oh, I'm sorry.
David: That the younger generation will go in, but the older generation will not.
Seth: So chapter 10, or chapter 11 comes... No, no, no.
David: It's 13, I think.
Seth: 13.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They get to the border of Canaan. This is when they send in the spies.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like, "Okay, we're here in the new Eden. Let's go test it out."
David: Yep.
Seth: The older ge- the old guard says, "No, we can't do it."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're punished f- 40 years in the wilderness.
David: That's right.
Seth: But so are the children, but the promise to the children is, once your parents die-
David: Yep
Seth: ... you will inherit the land.
David: That's right.
Seth: Because you are, at that point, I guess, not... You're not complicit in the sins of your parents or like-
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, you're not gonna be punished for the sins of your parents-
Seth: Right
David: ... which is something that the Torah says.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, and it's also really interesting too. I've never thought of, of that whole meta-narrative as a picture of the gospel, but it's like, that's, let the old generation bear the sins so the younger generation can come in.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And it is kind of like this, this interesting thing.
Seth: Our, our older brother, Jesus.
David: Our older brother, Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... bears our sins so we can enter into the promised land, even though we're just as sinful as-
Seth: Right
David: ... [laughs] everyone else.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, and we're gonna see that that's true-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, in the, in the history books. But, uh, anyway, that's really cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and so yeah, you, you'll see the younger generation, they come in, and, um, we, we get them to the border of Canaan, and that's where we meet Balaam, and that's gonna be a fun episode.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm excited to talk about that. My favorite part of Numbers. It's the climax of the book of Numbers.
Seth: And he, Balaam pronounces blessings-
David: Yep
Seth: ... over Israel.
David: Right. Which is-
Seth: Uh-
David: Which just feels wrong.
Seth: And Balaam's this like, what, this pagan.
David: He's a pagan.
Seth: He's like a sorcerer, right?
David: Yeah, he's a sor- he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a divination guy for hire. He's like a mercenary. And so-
Seth: A [laughs] mercenary sorcerer.
David: Yeah, mer- yeah. And so the guy, this, this king-
Seth: Do you ever watch Sophia I? There's no reason why. [laughs]
David: Of course... No, no. I have a son, first off-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and he's one.
Seth: We watch Sophia I a lot in our house.
David: Yes.
Seth: And there's a guy on there named, uh, Cedric.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he's like the, the sorcerer for the palace.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: But he's always trying to undermine the king. Anyway, nevermind. [laughs]
David: Wow, man. That was definitely worth the trip. That was good. [coughs] Oh, my goodness. Uh, and so anyway, um, yeah. And so we'll see that even in the midst of all this horrid sin and discipline and punishment, God is still pronouncing a blessing. Um, and I'm excited to talk about that one in full. Uh, and then, yeah, and then we, we see the, the new g- the new generation. We get a second census toward the end of the book of Numbers. So once you get through the first three, just know there's only one more set of numbers you have to look forward to.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And the whole point is you have the first census is the old generation, and the second census is the new generation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's just the point. And, like, that's, that's it.
Seth: So in the wilderness.
David: Yep.
Seth: So the book of Numbers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is about, in the wilderness-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the old people die.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, that's like, this is the story of the older generation's continued repetition of the Gar- of the, of Genesis 3-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and their disqualification from entering into the new Eden.
David: That's right.
Seth: They've committed the same sins as the, their first parents in the old Eden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So they cannot enter into the new Eden.
David: Right.
Seth: There's a new hope in the new generation, uh, which will, which is the book of Deuteronomy.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But for now, in the wilderness, this is the older generation proving they're just like Adam and Eve.
David: That's right. So yeah, I'm really excited to, uh, to talk through, um, Numbers and hop in. Uh, I think it's, it's been helpful to kind of pull my brain out and kind of ki- pull my brain out, that sounds kinda weird. I don't know what that means, but-
Seth: I don't know either
David: ... but to kind of s- I guess-
Seth: I'd like to see you try. [laughs]
David: Pull my brain, so, so like step above and get a overview of Numbers to help us see that, like, the first 10 chapters shouldn't be indicative of your whole experience of the book of Numbers. It's like an action movie.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: There's a lot to look forward to. Um, now we kind of have n- a narrative shape of the book, so-
Seth: God's fulfilling his promises.
David: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I think there's a lot to see.
Seth: And I mean, let's s- I think, too, just if God has made abundant promises to you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... wouldn't you want to number them?
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Count his blessings, name them one by one.
David: [laughs] I don't know that song.
Seth: You don't?
David: I-
Seth: Okay, yeah.
David: Anyway, yeah. But it's, uh, so yeah, we'll, we'll look at, we'll look at that. We'll look at the census next week, and we'll, we'll kind of say what is going on, why all these numbers. There seems to be some historical inaccuracies and some literary inaccuracies we'll try to wrestle with.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and then, um, we'll, we'll get started. So I'm excited to go through Numbers. Um, we, we're really glad that you guys are listening, um, and going on this journey with us.
Seth: Yeah, please-
David: If you have any questions along the way, reach out, [email protected].
Seth: Please rate us on iTunes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Help other people find us. Leave your comment.
David: Yeah. So anyway, well, we, uh, we really appreciate you guys listening, and we'll see you all next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
