David: You are meant to rule your little kingdom, however small or big that is, as if you were Jesus himself. How would Jesus rule in your home? How would Jesus rule in your school? How would Jesus rule at your work, in your backyard, with your neighbors, in your church, at an HOA meeting?
Seth: Yeah.
David: What would it look like if King Jesus showed up here as the gentle and lowly lamb?
Seth: Right.
David: It would look like you being a little Jesus in your neighborhood. That's what it looks like to rule with God.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of Scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of Scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: Well, a hearty welcome to everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We are in Daniel 7. We have reached the center of the chiasm, the center of the book, the famous Daniel 7 with the four beasts and the Son of Man and the Ancient of Days. Seth, give me your hot take. How you feeling?
Seth: My hot take is
David: overwhelmed beyond belief.
Seth: His forthcoming. I, I, we said before we came on air, I think this might, this feels like the most difficult passage we've ever talked about. Not because like, because it's so dense. So much is on the line. So many big themes are on the table. The genre is apocalyptic literature. I don't think we've ever done apocalyptic literature. Uh, you might, like, we've like, this feels like we are at the limits of our abil— of our ability, of our human ability.
David: Even Daniel will express the same thing. Daniel feels the same way we do.
Seth: So we are in good company. And so I feel that. I feel, yeah, the humility of being that far on the edges of what I can understand.
David: Yeah.
David: But luckily Daniel had an angelic guide to help him with some of the interpretation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We have the Holy Spirit and the full counsel of the Word of God and a community of brethren. And we're going to, we're going to work our way through this really wonderful passage.
Seth: Yes. And if we change our mind tomorrow, praise be to God.
David: Praise be to God. Uh, well, okay, let's start before we get into everything. Let's set the stage here with, uh, genre. Yes, because the genre between 6 and 7 has changed from narrative to apocalyptic.
Seth: So in the first 6 chapters of the Book of Daniel, we have narratives, stories about Daniel or Nebuchadnezzar or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego about their time in exile and how the kings have all been humbled back to the God of heaven. And when Daniel or his friends are risen up into power. So we have this— we have themes set up already for us. The true God of heaven, the universal sovereign of God, and then the sons of God, the sons of men rising up and sitting on thrones in Babylon. We have these themes swirling around. Chapter 7 switches, and we no longer have narratives, but we have records of visions and dreams for the rest of the 5 chapters— not 6 chapters.
David: Okay.
Seth: Left in Daniel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as you said, they are apocalyptic in genre, right?
David: So when we say something is apocalyptic, what do we mean by that? Because I'm like, have we already in a sense dipped our toe in the waters of apocalyptic literature when we've seen these visions of the king statue and the tree that gets chopped down that becomes a man that becomes a beast that becomes a man again? That also feels really weird.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What, what's separating this from that? Is— are they similar?
Seth: You know, they might be more similar than they are different. The word apocalypse just means revelation. Oh, right.
David: The Book of Revelation is the Apocalypse of John.
Seth: Apocalypse of John. It just means God is revealing.
David: Yeah.
David: And that's helpful. That's demystifying a bit.
Seth: Yeah. And we've had revelations about individual kings and revelations about the future of kingdoms. And in the next few chapters, we're going to get intensified revelations about everything we've already read and things that will happen after Daniel is dead and gone as well.
David: Yeah. So maybe, is it a helpful distinction, at least when we're talking about genre, to talk about apocalyptic literature differentiating from prophetic literature because prophetic literature in the Old Testament often talks about things that are happening right now, how God is viewing the events of the world right now, how God is seeing things right now, and maybe what's soon going to come to pass.
Seth: Consequence for breaking the covenant.
David: Yeah. And like, usually they're warning-based. They're not determined. They're, yeah, unless you repent, these things are going to happen. This is more like, let me show you the future, Daniel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that what's happening?
Seth: There's a little bit of that. Yeah, there is like We— you don't get the sense reading this that you can change the course of what God has ordained.
David: Yeah, you really don't.
Seth: A lot of like critics of the book of Daniel will say like Daniel teaches a type of hard determinism that you just can't escape from the will of God. And presumably that's encouraging to people in exile. God will win, right?
David: But we know it. It's written in future history books, right?
Seth: But where's the freedom in that? Like there's like, there is a sense that like that apocalyptic literature has written in the blood of the Lamb, the future of the world. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's on the line. I think apocalyptic literature also has some like genre expectations.
David: Yes.
Seth: So like prophetic literature is like, it's a covenant interpretation and some future events of the consequences for breaking the covenant, which are riffing off of what God already promised in Deuteronomy.
David: Right. If you don't read prophetic literature with the Torah in your mind, you're going to be hamstrung and you're going to get to some weird places.
Seth: Yes.
David: So what are some of the, like, presuppositions of apocalyptic literature?
Seth: Um, apocalyptic literature generally makes use of grand cosmic images to make points about sometimes trivial human events, right? Um, and what I've heard one scholar just talk about blowing up the problems of our current age onto just a cosmic and spiritual dimension. Mm. Isaiah will do this when he, like, describes the Assyrian or the Babylonian army to come to Jerusalem by all this. And he says the stars will all fall out of the sky.
David: Right. That is apocalyptic literature right there.
Seth: That's apocalyptic literature.
David: That's right.
Seth: Using the cosmos to communicate a geopolitical reality for Israel. Right.
David: So we kind of still do this today. Right? Like you think about when we, when mankind wants to express the hubris of technology.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the height of the, the foibles we'll get into if we continue down our technologically dark path, you get Godzilla.
Seth: Yes.
David: And Godzilla is this literal monster that rises out of the chaotic waters and wreaks havoc on the empires of the world.
Seth: There's a whole Japanese like manga style devoted to this and it's Awesome. King Kong, Godzilla. You get, uh, Mothman, Mothra.
Seth: You—
David: we have all these stories, right, that do this, and they're communicating a simple truth. Yep. Like, our hubris of science gets us to these devastating ends.
Seth: Yeah. Even stuff like superhero origin stories, they're— what are they? They're telling the stories of coming of age. How do you step into who you are as a small boy in a big world? Right. That's what Spider-Man's about.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So let's put some superpowers on it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Call it a coming— it's a coming-of-age story.
David: That's right.
Seth: But you put superpowers on it to heighten everything and to dignify the suffering or the experience of the forgotten person.
David: Right. And there are tropes, you know, expected motifs in King Kong and Godzilla movies and in superhero movies and in Star Wars movies, sci-fi movies, like, and if they're not there, you're like, Why aren't they there? You missed this. This didn't feel like the right genre.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so those things are going to pop up in our text and you need to know they're there so that way you're not— you don't make too much of them because it's a trope.
Seth: Right.
David: And you don't make too little of them because you know how they sit in the story and what device they're doing.
Seth: Apocalyptic literature is meant to be big, vibrant, cosmic giants. Yeah. Supposed to. It's supposed to feel overwhelming. And which is how Daniel experiences it in his dream. Yeah.
David: Can I ask a really meta question?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I've just never thought of this question before. Is this— is a cart or the horse kind of thing? Maybe it's chicken or the egg, and it's unanswerable. But is apocalyptic literature the way that it is because it's a literary style, or because it's the types of visions that God gives? Oh, like apocalyptic literature is reporting some of the ways that God tends to reveal things to his prophets.
Seth: Well, there is apocalyptic literature outside of Scripture, right? So this was a genre popular, just the same way Marvel movies are popular now. Like, this genre is widely popular within the ancient world, right? And God is using the tropes of the genre to communicate truths to an exiled people in Babylon.
David: So in a way, then, this is kind of like God's like, you know what, I want to tell you what's going to happen in the future, 'So we're going to do it like a Star Wars movie.' Yeah. And there's going to be light and dark and in a galaxy far, far away, we're going to place it there. And I'm going to show you what's going to happen, but we're going to use Han Solo to be this person. And, you know, Leia is going to represent this kingdom.
Seth: And to the extent that scripture aligns with or subverts the expectations of apocalyptic genre, right, also tells you different things about what's supposed to happen.
David: Yeah. If God was doing a Star Wars movie, and then all of a sudden the dark side just wins everything. You'd be like, yes, that's, that's not how these go.
Seth: That's not how these go.
David: That's not how this goes.
Seth: Or if like you have a sci-fi movie recently in the galaxy next door, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: Like, hold on.
Seth: That wasn't right. Yeah.
David: Or if you have a sci-fi movie, you know, and they usually, there's these, there's a sci-fi trope of like when technology gets so out of control that it's unmanageable.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you have these like huge drone shots that just pull out and that person is just stuck in whatever horrible reality of the new AI-driven world that they're in.
Seth: Yes.
David: And there's no escape. And the movie ends, roll credits.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But what if at the end of the movie it's like, never mind, I've figured out how to reprogram the AI. It's like, wait, you broke the genre. It's not supposed to end that way.
Seth: Right.
David: So we need to know the tropes of the genre in order to know what's happening.
Seth: That's all we're saying. Yeah. That's all we're saying. Okay. And so all we're entering into a new genre, with new metaphors, new ideas, like new ways to communicate truth.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Know that.
David: I just think it's helpful. Yes.
Seth: Okay. And our— this was mostly an opportunity for us to geek out about Marvel and Star Wars. All right.
David: So, so we're going back in time.
Seth: Yeah. So Daniel has this first vision, um, while he's still in the court of Belshazzar.
David: In the first year of Belshazzar's reign in Babylon. Uh-huh. And so Darius, who put him in the lion's den, this hasn't happened yet.
Seth: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The reason for the anachronism, the, the wrong timeline ordering, is because there's something literarily and linguistically happening in the book as a whole. Because it's, it's a mixed language book. We've talked about this, right?
Seth: Yeah. The Book of Daniel is written in both Aramaic and Hebrew. And Daniel chapter 7 is the last book in Aramaic.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the rest of the book will be Hebrew. But it's the last— every other Aramaic chapter is It's a story, but this one's visions. So it's setting you up for the combined confused languages telling a unified point, which was kind of the problem at the Tower of Babel where languages were confused in the first place.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if you missed our conversation about how Babylon is a new type of Babel, you should go back and listen to a previous podcast.
David: Yes. And I think that's also really interesting too. The language switching from Aramaic to Hebrew almost also is a visible representation, linguistic representation of the kingdom of God overtaking the kingdom of Babylon.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because you have, you know, you have the Babylonian Empire and the Media-Persian Empire. And then the visions are going to be about how God's kingdom is going to come and overtake them all.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And as he does, the language of his people ends up overtaking the language of the empire. Yeah. Interesting.
Seth: And then I guess last thing before we jump in, Daniel chapter— we've talked multiple times about how the Book of Daniel is a chiasm, right? Every chapter has a partner chapter. Daniel 7 is the partner chapter to Daniel 2, which— where Nebuchadnezzar has a vision of a four-parted statue that represents four kingdoms.
David: Yes.
Seth: And now we're about to see another vision of four beasts that represent four kingdoms. Okay, so we're The same thing, a similar thing is happening.
David: So Daniel's helping us here.
Seth: He's helping us.
David: It's not throwing us for a total loop. We should expect these themes.
Seth: Yes.
David: And okay, this cast of characters. Okay, so in the first year of Belshazzar, king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and vision in his head while laying in bed. Yes. And then he goes and writes it down. And that's, I guess, in a sense, what we have here in front of us.
Seth: That's right. This is his dream journal.
David: We have Daniel's dream journal.
Seth: Good.
David: I hope no one ever publishes mine.
Seth: It would look— it would sound a lot like this, I'm sure.
David: I— yeah, I bet it would.
Seth: He—
Seth: the four ruach, the four winds of heaven stirred up the great sea.
David: Oh, well, so we already have something really interesting happening here.
Seth: This is the cosmic great sea before the world began, where the breath, the wind of God hovered over the waters, right?
David: In Genesis 1, you have— there was this nothingness, this void. Well, that void isn't just a black hole. Yeah, it was this chaotic water.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the Spirit of God, the ruach, is why you brought that up, which also could mean wind or spirit or breath.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Was hovering over it. Well, now it's happening again.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I almost have this vision of Hercules. Yeah. Where Hades rides over and—
Seth: I have not seen this Disney movie.
David: Oh, you haven't?
Seth: One of the few I haven't seen.
David: The planets align. It's part of his master plan and opens up this hole in the earth and underneath it are 4 chaos monsters. Oh, and he unleashes them to go and attack Zeus.
Seth: Well, hold your breath because— and four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. So what's interesting is you expect creation, right?
David: When the Spirit hovers over the water, we get creation.
Seth: Instead, we get chaos. Yeah, it comes up out of the water.
David: De-creation.
Seth: And the winds of heaven, to whatever extent that is a picture of the breath of God, God is the author of this chaos, just like he was in chapter 1.
David: Yep. That it was God who handed over Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar. God's always proving again and again and again that he's the author of history. He's the one in control. He sets up kingdoms and tears them down.
Seth: Yep. And so he's even control— in control of these 4 chaotic monsters representing 4 kingdoms that are coming up out of the sea.
David: Right.
Seth: So the first was like a lion and had eagle's wings. Uh, I'm gonna skip to chapter 5. And behold, another beast, a second, was one like a bear with ribs in its mouth. And then another beast, chapter 7, verse 6, it was like a leopard with four wings of a bird on its back. And then we're going to go to a fourth beast, a terrifying beast, a different beast, a different beast with great iron teeth. It devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. And it was different from all the other beasts before it, and it had 10 horns. And then another horn comes up from the middle of the horns a little horn, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. Okay, so I think what we should ask before we move on, because the vision continues into two more movements before we get an interpretation.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, so what do we know so far? We know this is a parallel to chapter 2 where 4 other kingdoms were mentioned.
David: Yes.
Seth: And we were told the first kingdom there was Babylon, and that Nebuchadnezzar was the head. Right. Now listen to the description of the beast here. The first beast here. The first was like a lion and had eagle's wings.
David: Remember how Nebuchadnezzar's hair grows out like eagle's feathers whenever he's turned into a beast, right?
Seth: Yeah. And, uh, then it says, and he was lifted and then its wings were plucked off and it was lifted up from the ground and then made to stand on two feet like a man, and a mind of a man was given to it. This actually sounds a lot like the story of King Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 4, where he is made a beast as a punishment.
David: But then after, after his eagle feathers grow, yep, he is restored to his sanity and the mind of a man is given to him again.
Seth: Yes, his sanity is returned and he stands on his two feet.
David: Without even needing interpretation, like, oh, very clear that This is probably Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar and the kingdom of Babylon. Yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: Which is also interesting to just to flag, although we've kind of said it, is just as in chapter 4, you had Nebuchadnezzar, a king of an empire becoming a beast. Right here, you have beasts that are representing kingdoms and empires.
Seth: Yes.
David: So Daniel—
Seth: yes, yes, yes.
David: Daniel's done the work for us narratively up to this point for us to understand what's happening, which I think is also really kind of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In the way he gives dreams and visions, to use the raw material of our life to talk to us, right?
Seth: You saw King Nebuchadnezzar go turn into an animal.
David: Yeah, and he had eagle's feathers and he was a beast. So I'm gonna have beasts come out and talk to you, like, like through visions that you understand. Okay, cool.
Seth: So just to proof text that these are kingdoms, in verse 17, an angel starts interpreting this dream for Daniel, and he says, These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. Right. The angel tells us this is the case.
David: Yes. I was just going back to the— you said arise out of the earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It just freaked me out because what's— when the last time we had chaotic waters and the spirit hovering over those waters and some— and a man rising up out of the earth that was created out of those waters, what did you get?
Seth: Adam.
David: You got the first king. Adam was made a king, given dominion over the earth in Genesis. He was the first created king risen up out of the chaotic waters. But now that beautiful story of creation is being cannibalized and mutated into this disgusting, grotesque show of bestiary.
Seth: It's almost as if like Eden never existed. And what if out of the waters, life was only the fall, right? And it's interesting, how do they leave the fall covered in animal skins?
David: Like, this is a new creation myth. Oh my gosh.
Seth: Like, this is, this is the creation story without Eden, right?
David: Hey, Daniel, let's have a dream. And in this dream, let's imagine that the world was made without a good, like, without, without the good beginning.
Seth: It's crazy.
David: What if it just started in the fall?
Seth: That's crazy.
David: It'd be like, I would again feel— and what did God do in creation? He filled the world with beasts. Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Animals.
Seth: Yes.
David: Turkeys.
Seth: Turkeys.
David: But like, he also in this one, the beasts are out of control, mutated amalgamations that are just interesting, running wild.
Seth: Well, okay. Okay. Anyway, that would be an interesting exploration for anybody who wants to do so.
David: Yeah, we'll just leave that there.
Seth: But the next one is a second beast is like a bear with 3 ribs in its mouth and he's told to devour much flesh. We already know from what we read is that the kingdom of Babylon was devoured by the Median Empire. Mm-hmm. That's kind of all we know. We can't— Yeah, that's, that's all we know, right?
David: I mean, if you just read chapter 5 and 6 and you got here, you're like, okay, no, the first beast is Nebuchadnezzar. Who comes after him? Darius, right? It's just kind of plain.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the question is then, who is the third beast? Now, we don't have any information so far about who this third beast could be. We have one option already present to us. It could be Persia, right?
David: Because it was the shekel was divided into the Medes and the Persians. So maybe the first one was Darius and the Medes, and the next one is Persia.
Seth: However, throughout the entire book of Daniel, the Medes and the Persians are always described as one, right? The empire of the Medes and the Persians— the law of the Medes and the Persians are irrevocable. So it makes sense that it's one. It also makes sense that it's two. But who's the third empire? In this passage, we don't know, right? And maybe it would be pointless to speculate in this passage.
David: I think it would be. And what we can do here— as we go scratching our heads about the third and the fourth beasts, we just go, oh, I can just be with Daniel in verse 15. Yes. Where something really interesting happens because Daniel says that the visions alarm him. He gets anxious in his brain. And so he, he comes to a— is it an angel?
Seth: An angel, yes.
David: And asks him to make the interpretation known to him of the vision.
Seth: That's right.
David: So the interpreter of dreams, Daniel, the one who always knows what's happening in visions, ends up being kind of like Nebuchadnezzar, asking somebody else to give the interpretation. Even Daniel doesn't know what's happening.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In this vision, which is interesting. I just want to say is very reassuring.
Seth: It is so reassuring. And think about this. If Daniel didn't know what they meant, neither did anybody reading it.
David: Right.
Seth: So if we come to this demanding that we have the exact names of the kingdoms, we would miss the hope that this book would offer an exiled Jew in Babylon. So it's like, I think there are good answers for who the kingdoms are. And we even get some new answers in the following chapters.
David: But we should take a dose of Daniel's humility here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And just be like, I don't— can we just say I don't understand this perfectly? Can every single biblical scholar in the world just admit what Daniel is happy to admit?
Seth: Right. Because Ultimately, the point isn't to know history before it happens, right? It's to know the God who controls history before it happens.
David: That's right.
Seth: And knowing the God who controls history would be an encouragement to an oppressed Jew living under the thumb of a monster.
David: That's right.
Seth: That's what— that's the first point that's on the line.
David: So what we're saying then, up to this point in chapter 7 with the dream, is we can kind of get to who the first beast is and the second beast.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then the third keeps coming, and then there's a 7th one who's even worse. The 4th one. Sorry, I was thinking about the number 7.
Seth: We'll get there. We'll get there. Uh, one number at a time, David.
David: There's the 4th beast. That comes and he's even worse. That's— but that's all the work we can do right now. Yes, we are now joining Daniel and saying, I'm confused. Yes. Do you want to try to tie up the beasts before jumping to the next vision, or should we just continue the confusion?
Seth: Let's continue the confusion with Daniel. Great.
David: Let's stay in Daniel's shoes here. Let's circle back to how you ended the story here with the four beasts. So this fourth beast comes out. He has 10 horns.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: One other horn is a little horn.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it gets kind of raised up and plucks up 3 other horns. That's all very confusing. But then it starts to talk.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it starts to say great things, kind of like boastful, grand things. Yes. That are just crazy. Apparently. Right. We don't get any of that content.
Seth: We don't get any of the content. Just Daniel's like, and he said crazy things, but you can imagine what it— well, I mean, think about what the kings of the empires have already said. Who, I built this empire for the glory of my majesty. And in that moment he turned into a beast.
David: Right.
Seth: Probably something proud and blasphemous. He's the only mediator between God and man, like something like that.
David: Daniel's given us enough vocabulary to put in this horn's mouth.
Seth: And just as a, like a little aside, remember this chapter is talking to chapter 2, and the fourth kingdom in chapter 2 was the feet. 10 toes are on the feet, and there are 10 horns here, right? And it has iron teeth, like the legs were made of iron.
David: Like, that's helpful to say.
Seth: Yep.
David: We are confused a little bit, but we don't need to be utterly confused because it is still mapping on perfectly to the statue that was in Nebuchadnezzar's dream in chapter 2.
Seth: That's right.
David: So we're still not completely lost.
Seth: Not completely lost.
David: Okay, so here's my question then. If you have this 10-horned beast here that matches the 10 toes of the statue, then where is the uncut stone that's coming to smash it and break it Because that's the next part of the story, right?
Seth: Yeah, it's verse 9.
David: It's the very next verse.
Seth: You got it right, David. It's almost like you planned that.
David: I did.
Seth: As I looked, thrones were placed and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was white as snow and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames. Its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him. A thousand thousands served him, and 10,000 times 10,000 stood before him. And the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.
David: Oh boy.
Seth: So this is the moment where the uncut stone is supposed to do ju—
David: if we, if we got Daniel 2 in our mind, this is the uncut stone that comes in, hits the heel of the statue, and brings it crumbling down before then setting up a worldwide prior of its own.
Seth: And in this dream, we get a new color to that. The ancient of— the stone is the Ancient of Days.
David: What— and what is that phrase, the Ancient of Days?
Seth: This is the only time in the Bible it's used.
David: Crazy.
Seth: Or the first time in the Bible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's—
David: it's not pulling on anything in the canon that predates it.
Seth: Yeah. It is a depiction of God.
David: Absolutely. Who else could be the Ancient of Days?
Seth: The oldest. I mean, and think about the imagery we're already given, the hovering over the primordial waters of creation.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, who was the one who was hovering?
David: God.
Seth: God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The Ancient of Days.
David: Yes.
Seth: The most ancient one. He was there when the beast came out of the water.
David: Right. So he's the uncut stone who comes down to establish a new kingdom.
Seth: Thrones were placed.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. And he's described as having white clothes, as white as snow. And he's having, has white hair. Yeah. But like, like sheep's wool. What I don't want to do is get grandfather God imagery in my head.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: God is a, is an old man with a white beard sitting on a throne.
Seth: I mean, the, his throne was fiery flames and his wheels were burning fire might disabuse you of that notion, but I did it. Okay, fine.
David: I did it.
Seth: But it is interesting.
David: I think what I'm getting at here is this is apocalyptic literature, right? Right. You're not meant to picture what it's saying. I've seen people— and if you've done this, I don't think you've done something wrong, right? Not demonizing this. But I've seen people try to draw, um, descriptions like this in Ezekiel with the wheels within wheels. Yeah. Or this, this picture of God— what does God look like? Or the picture of Jesus, the opening of Revelation. And you're— he's not describing what it is like, like a descriptively. Yeah. It's not Tolkien describing what a meadow looks like in The Hobbit.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right. This is all metaphorical. Everything means something, but it doesn't mean what it looks like. It means what it's representing.
Seth: Right. His clothing being white as snow. That's how in Psalm 51, right, that David asks his heart to be made like, right. Yeah.
David: Those are sins are scarlet. You've made them white as snow. Like this, it's perfection, perfection, innocence.
Seth: Purity.
David: Yes.
Seth: Beauty.
David: Radiance.
Seth: Fiery flames. What are they communicating?
David: What—
Seth: where have we seen fiery flames already? The Book of Daniel.
David: The fiery furnace.
Seth: In the rage of Nebuchadnezzar. So there's— and presumably that was his— a symbol of his power to judge. To judge.
David: Right. He was the god who judges. Yeah. Now a perfect white-clothed god is coming to judge, and his fire burns way hotter. He has streams of fire.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But it's going to be good news because he's a perfect God.
Seth: Yeah. And his judgment isn't bound to the city of Babylon. His throne has wheels on it.
David: It can move anywhere.
Seth: It can move anywhere.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Things with wheels on it today isn't that big of a deal for us. Everything has wheels.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But back then the wheel was a really cool deal. You know, it was like, man, that thing has wheels. That's amazing. And so a throne, a throne with wheels actually would be weird. Even today. Be like, why does the throne have wheels? So it can go anywhere and judge all kingdoms. Yeah, that's the point.
Seth: It's a universal sovereign, right? Universal judge.
David: Yeah. And we, we had talked earlier about how Daniel is kind of a meditation on the fulfillment of Ezekiel 22. And in another part of the book of Ezekiel, you see this image of a chariot that has wheels within wheels, and there's this divine flaming judge on the chariot. And those wheels within wheels are really just communicating that, that judge, that God can go anywhere he wants. He can be the universal sovereign. He's not bound to one place in Israel, but can go anywhere he wants.
Seth: And think about it, we just saw 4 kingdoms that span different parts of the world.
David: How's he going to get to all of them?
Seth: Right? We need a God who can transcend the borders.
David: Yeah. For everybody else's throne is stuck in the ground, right?
Seth: God's throne has wheels, and thousands attend him.
David: Right. And what connected the whole world? Let's think about this too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What connected all of these kingdoms too. Not only roadways, streams, streams, rivers. And so he has rivers of fire. His judgment can reach into the nooks and crannies of every empire around the world. Oftentimes people would get their goods and even themselves to different places via streams and rivers. Well, now God is getting his judgment out into the earth through these very streams.
Seth: Courts of judgment, and the books are open. Now think about this. Yeah, if you are an exiled Jew, if you've been stolen from your land, you've been scattered throughout Babylon or Persia or Media, and you read this— the universal judge, his streams are all fire, his throne can move over any capital, the Ancient of Days has a ledger of the injustices and atrocities of my oppressors. This is good news.
David: This is really good news.
Seth: He's coming to finally do battle with the beasts.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's what's happening.
David: Right. And so I think if you stopped, imagine stopping in verse 8, after all the beasts, this would be the only good news. And that would be that at least God knows what's going to happen. Yes. Which is good news. But like, man, beast after beast after beast. How much more of this could I put up with? It is like, no, but there is good news on the other side of it, that there is going to be an omnipotent throne that comes down in fiery judgment against all the oppressive nations that have put you under boot.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah, that is really good news.
Seth: And that is— those are the next verses. The horn was speaking great words, and he was thrown into fire. The dominion is taken from these beasts, and the kingdom of the Ancient of Days, the thrones of the Ancient of Days, take its place.
David: Okay, so not only— so the throne came down, it had a courtroom, and all the beasts were found guilty.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And punished. Yes. Okay, that's a big deal.
Seth: It's a big deal.
David: That's a really big deal.
Seth: So the beasts of the world, the primordial beasts of the world, the empires of the world are found guilty for all that they've done against God's people.
David: Nebuchadnezzar's statue in his dream in chapter 2 has fallen by uncut stone. One other, before we move on, one other thing that I'm just picturing. If you just, if you just took out all the themes from this passage and put them together, it would kind of retell the story of Genesis and the hope of Genesis 1 to 3, because you have the primordial waters and you have chaos, and then God opens it up and brings forth beasts and man from it. Right, right.
Seth: One of the beasts rises up above the others.
David: Right.
Seth: Snake.
David: You have the snake. The snake rises up above the others. It's different than the other beasts, it seems. And it speaks crazy things, right? Like, and it's saying things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it ends up tempting. And later he's going to say that he taxes the holy ones or he's annoying to the holy ones.
David: What does he say?
Seth: I can't remember.
David: He's annoying. It's in there. He speaks words against the Most High and shall wear out the saints of the Most High.
Seth: He's annoying.
David: These words are taxing. And yeah. And so Adam and Eve fall under the words of this beast. But then what is said, that that beast will be brought down. I will crush that beast's head. Right.
Seth: Right.
David: So I'm sure this is— he's kind of retelling the story of creation, saying, remember that first beast that messed everything up and brought everyone under the kingdom of sin?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I'm finally going to come and crush it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is still going to happen. The promise of Genesis 3:15, I will crush the head of the serpent. That beast will finally be destroyed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, like that. The Bible, the story of the Bible that started the whole thing, right, as a tight thread still carrying through to this moment in exile.
Seth: Hmm.
David: Just would be really good news.
Seth: Yeah.
Seth: And again, like, the hope is that Israel would have been that place, that Garden of Eden, but Israel's destroyed.
David: That's right.
Seth: Is the— is our creation truth still true?
David: Right.
David: No wonder the— this is a— this is a creation myth without Eden.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Eden is destroyed. Israel's gone. The temple is gone. The temple was a picture of Eden. So what happens whenever the chaos monsters are ruling and there was never an Eden to begin with? Yeah, the throne can still come down.
Seth: Throne can still come down.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay. So the throne comes down, judges the beasts. And to this person, to the Son of Man, dominion is given, an everlasting dominion which will not pass away. And his kingdom is one that shall never be destroyed. Wow. So really, in so much, there's a lot happening. This is one of the most important passages of Scripture in the whole Bible. In the whole Bible.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: So just get ready. Yeah, there's so much happening right now.
David: Right. So, but before we talk about the identity of the Son of Man and where he came from and what a Son of Man is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or let's talk about what was given to him, because at least we have categories for that in Daniel really clearly. Dominion. Is given to him. He is the one who's going to rule. So all along, God's been saying he can give dominion to whomever he wants.
Seth: Yeah, that's right. Because in the last couple chapters, particularly within Daniel 4 and 5, in the story of King Nebuchadnezzar and King Belshazzar, we're told that the Most High puts in place the lowliest people and that the Most High rules over all things. Right.
David: He has that ability. That's what's on the line is, can God do that? Yeah. And yeah, it's like in the political world events, it seems like, oh, he's doing it because you had the handwriting on the wall.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, well, you've been weighed and found wanting. So I'm going to give the, the, the kingdom of Babylon over to Darius.
Seth: Darius the Mede.
David: Right. But here the kingdom is given over to someone else.
Seth: Like not just the kingdom of Babylon.
David: Right.
Seth: The universal sovereignty.
David: That's right.
Seth: Of the God above all the gods. Yes.
David: And it's not. And I think it's important. I think the distinction here that you're probably trying to mete out is it's not a usurpation. This isn't just a cannibalization of a weaker kingdom that a bigger kingdom comes and takes over. God comes down in a giant throne and says, the world is mine.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I am choosing to bequeath it to someone else.
Seth: So like, we've had God doing something we expect, controlling the kings of the world. Now we have something of God we don't expect, right? We don't expect God, the universal sovereign, to delegate his authority to anyone, let alone one like a son of man.
David: A human.
Seth: A human being.
David: Right, because a son of man is a human being. Yes.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, a son of a person is a son. Yes, a person.
Seth: So yeah, I think— I'm hoping we're setting up the categories correctly here. So what's on the line? This universal sovereign, the Ancient of Days, the one who's crushing the beasts. Once they're all crushed, he's going to hand over authority to the whole world, of the whole world, to a human being. Mm-hmm. That's new in scripture.
David: Yeah. And why, why is that new? Why shouldn't— why hasn't Daniel set us up to expect that? Because like he has been doing— God has been letting other kings rule. He's let— he's risen Daniel up to a position of power. Should we not be expecting that Daniel being risen up as a son of man to seats of power?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is like, I mean, if I, if I had this vision, right, and I had constantly been raised up to positions of power, the more visions I saw and interpreted, I'd be like, oh, maybe this is going to be me.
Seth: And in a way it is.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right. That's what I'm just saying is it's an escalation.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Unprecedented escalation. It makes sense that a human being would be risen up to take over another human kingdom, right? It makes sense that even Daniel in Babylon is risen up to the right hand of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar and Darius. But that's not what's on the line anymore. This is the kingdom that rules all kingdoms. This is this uncut stone kingdom that will fill up the entire world and trample all the monsters. And so we expect God singularly to rule the world.
David: I don't know if I would expect that.
Seth: You don't?
David: The Eden story would teach me not to expect that. When God set up a kingdom over the whole world, he put humans in charge of it and gave them dominion over the whole world and told them to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.
Seth: Hmm.
David: He's— it's always been his plan to have humans in charge of the earth.
Seth: Interesting. Yeah, I guess you're right.
David: Yeah, I would expect this. I think what I don't expect is that this human came from the clouds of heaven.
Seth: Well, that's interesting.
David: That's the thing I don't expect.
Seth: That's really interesting. Yeah. Why that's interesting is a couple different reasons. Oh no. So who is capable of riding on the clouds?
David: God. Yeah.
Seth: God is the only one in scripture described as a cloud rider. As a cloud rider. Uh, Psalm 68 is a great example.
David: Ooh, okay.
Seth: The, it's a, uh, David is writing a psalm explaining the Exodus story. He says, okay, sing to God, sing in praise of his name, extol him who rides on the clouds. And it's a description of the cloud that wandered with Israel through the desert.
David: Yeah, and the one that came down on Mount Sinai that has the glory of God in it, right? God, God's presence to Moses descended on a cloud and touched the top of the mountain.
Seth: So as you were saying, we expect maybe then it's like I'm learning to expect a human being being delegated the authority of the universal kingdom, but I'm not expecting a Son of Man, a human being, to be able to be the cloud rider, to also be a divine figure.
David: That makes no sense to me.
Seth: That's a new— that's a new wrinkle.
David: I know that the Son of Man can be in God's image, but I don't think he can take God's car.
Seth: Right.
David: His cloud car.
Seth: Can he be the cloud rider? Yeah. Right.
David: That's so interesting.
Seth: So what's being set up here? Yeah. I mean, I think based on what we know of scripture, it's like you have an image of God, a cloud rider, mixed with the image of a human being.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And this mixture of a cloud riding divine God and a human being is the one the world is delegated to. Right.
David: And because Daniel's been preparing us for this all along. How all along Daniel's been setting this up for us. How at every turn Daniel's been going, here's a human being claiming to be God. Here's a human being claiming to be God. Nebuchadnezzar does it. Darius does it. He tries to be an intercessor. Nebuchadnezzar wants to be the god that everyone bows down to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then so whenever the time comes, what do you have? You have the actual God in a human coming to reign. Everyone else has been trying to pretend Babel was a facsimile of the reality as it has been in so many other ways. And now the real thing is here. We've all been pretending, man trying to be God.
Seth: And maybe we've been expecting another way because Daniel, how is he described? One in whom the spirit of the gods dwells.
David: How can that be possible? How could God be in a human?
Seth: Though God who does not dwell with man could reveal this, right? But the cloud rider is a man.
David: Daniel has been laying all the breadcrumbs. Oh, I didn't think about this.
Seth: Okay, so Great. And so let's stop here. We're about to get the interpretation the angel gives to Daniel.
David: Yes.
Seth: For his time period, two exiles in Babylon.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We have set up all the breadcrumbs to Jesus so well. We should just—
David: we should just stop and eat our treat.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Eat the bread.
Seth: Eat the bread. Jesus is the Son of Man. Yes, Jesus is the cloud rider.
David: Yeah, when Jesus comes to earth, so often in the Gospels he refers to himself with this very title derived from Daniel 7, and partly because it's ambiguous.
Seth: It could be a man, right? Just be a human.
David: He's presenting everyone with a riddle. Yes, it's a riddle, a vision. Yeah, it's really interesting. It needs interpretation, just like Daniel's did. But I think what's interesting about it is because Jesus often obscures himself in order to carry out his ministry, because if he would have come and just said, I am Yahweh, right, they would have stoned him on the spot.
Seth: Right.
David: But he had different plans. Yes. And so he uses cleverly the vision of Daniel to say, the Son of Man came, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And even some of the ways he does it, is he talking about himself?
Seth: Or is he Is he talking about Scripture?
David: Is he saying, oh, you know, the Son of Man will come and do such and such?
Seth: So Jesus identifies himself as the Son of Man over and over and over and over again. But the most fascinating time that Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man is when he is on trial by the beastly high priests, the beastly Pharisees, the machinations of the Roman and Jewish court system.
David: Yeah. What does he say there?
Seth: In Mark 14:62, Jesus says, I am the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven. And like, so, and this is as he's being crushed by the demonic beasts, right? And he even says like, you will see the Son of Man in other— and that's in Mark and Matthew, I think he said, and you will see the Son of Man. And what's he referring to? The Son of Man ascending to a throne in the clouds above all powers. He's referring to his ascension, right, and his resurrection, right? And he's telling the Pharisees that you will know that this— the prophecy that you read about in Daniel 7 all your life about this divine figure that's also a human being will be proven when I rise from the dead, and you will see it, and I will be seated at the right hand of God, right? Jesus knows he is the Son of Man from Daniel 7.
David: So why is it good news that Jesus is the Beast Crusher, the Eternal Sovereign, the one with worldwide dominion?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why is it good news that we finally have a God-man as King of the World?
Seth: Well, it is good news because the story from creation is finally coming to an end. The problem set up in the Garden of Eden The beast that lied to us, the beast that's dominated existence as humans, it's turned into empires that have crushed the people of God, is finally coming to an end. Yeah. The powers— the spell is being broken. The power is being broken. A new creation is about to begin. Why is it good news? Like, the Bible is coming to an end, right? Why is it good news that it's Jesus?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And not a proud emperor. It's like he's willing to die for his subjects rather than abuse his subject, imprison his subjects.
David: Yeah, he's the one who's going to go into the fiery furnace and the lion's den. Yeah, he's— yeah, he's gonna suffer. He was the one in the fiery furnace, and you know, the angel in the lion's den.
Seth: Maybe—
Seth: I think maybe if— let's put ourselves back into the oppressed Jew in exile, the original audience,
David: the original audience.
Seth: Let's just say you had the foresight as an oppressed Jew in Babylon to know that there was a Messiah coming who'd be crushed by the beasts, but who would be resurrected from the dead and sit at God's right hand. Why would that be good news to that person?
David: Yeah. Can I ask you a question?
Seth: Yeah.
David: How do we— we don't have that, that vision of the Son of Man being crushed by the beasts here, right? Um, because he comes in judgment.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And then as the Ancient of Days is sitting on his throne, the Son of Man comes in the clouds and everything's just given to him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The— it's, I guess you'd have to imply it from the beginning of the vision you have in Daniel 7, the fact that you have these global empires that are crushing, gnashing, devouring, eating, ruling the world, crushing the world. And when the angel begins to interpret those visions in verse 21, he says, "And I looked, that last horn that was risen up above all the other ones made war with the saints and prevailed over them until the Ancient of Days come, and then judgment was given to him and the saints of the Most High, and the saints possessed the kingdom." So who are the monstrous empires oppressing? The people of God, the saints, the holy ones. And where do the sons of men come from? The earth. They come from the sons of men. So it is an inference. It is not explicit. So who are the monstrous empires oppressing them? Well, the people of God, the holy ones, the saints of the Most High. Where do the holy ones come from? They come from the earth. Their under—
David: has been trampled.
Seth: Yes. So I think that is probably the inference that I am drawing there.
David: Yeah. And also like he in verse 25, as the angel interprets, He's speaking words against the Most High. The horn is against God. And he's wearing out the saints of the Most High.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so both the cloud rider and the Son of Man, both dominions— yeah, heaven and earth are under attack by this horn. And, and the Son of Man is the only one who fits the bill of both.
Seth: Right. And in verse 27, it's interesting. So this is getting to the interpretation a little bit more. But the angel, when Daniel asked for explanation, so who, who is this? Who is this Son of Man? He says, well, that is the saints. And then the very last verse, that verse 27, he says, then the saints will take their throne. And then he has a masculine singular object to describe the reality. He says, people of the saints of the Most High shall be given the kingdom, and his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom. So the angel conflates the people of God and the Son of Man. And where are all the people of God? Where are all these saints? On the earth. On the earth, crushing the beast. So like, where must the Son of Man come from?
David: From under the crushing feet of the beasts.
Seth: And so maybe that's— so it's like, you're right to question us. Like, how would you have known that based on the interpretation here? Like, you might only know it after Jesus came, right?
David: Which is totally fine.
Seth: Yeah, you might only know it after Jesus came.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's also like in the vision.
David: Okay, so let me go back to your question.
Seth: Yes.
David: Your question was You're a Jew in exile being actively crushed under one of the mighty beasts of empire. Why would this vision of a Son of Man and a cloud rider ruling over the earth and possibly being crushed by the beasts but still ruling afterwards, why would that be good news to me?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Whew, I mean, that I get to win. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, being on the winning side of history sounds great. Yeah, like, 'cause I, would assume that this was my Ancient of Days, my God.
Seth: Yes, right.
David: My only— my God is the cloud rider, and my God is going to come and he's going to free me, and he's going to give me a throne. Like, we haven't gotten there yet, but yeah. Anything else in like the— if you're in exile, like, what else is an original audience— would this be saying to you?
Seth: I mean, that there's resurrection from the dead. I mean, if you had the foresight to understand that Jesus was the one being prophesied here. Dying in Babylon is not the end, right? There's life beyond Babylon. There's life beyond media. There's life beyond Greece. There's life beyond Rome. There's life beyond wherever you're trapped, right?
David: For ten thousand of ten thousand of us.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: That's really good news.
Seth: Um, and maybe you're right. Maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit and we should go into the angel's interpretation and see how he gives good news. To the people of God.
David: Yes. So the angel comes to Daniel and ends up taking his role. There's that role reversal we talked about.
Seth: Yeah, Daniel's been the one explaining the visions to the kings who can't understand them, but now Daniel is the leader who can't understand visions, so he has to have an angel interpret them for him.
David: Yes. And so what does the angel— how does the angel help Daniel understand this vision here? Because it does kind of feel like— I don't know, I guess Daniel doesn't have a clue what's going on. I was gonna say he's kind of like Nebuchadnezzar, like hinting at maybe, I'm scared of what this—
Seth: the reality—
David: interpretation means, you tell me what it means.
Seth: Well, the angel says in verse 17, these four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. So we've already said that four kingdoms will succeed one another, increasing in violence, right?
David: Apparently, which just kind of confirms what Daniel himself interpreted for King Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 2.
Seth: That's right. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.
David: I mean, that's kind of the whole dream in 2 verses.
Seth: Yeah. But did you notice the crazy wrinkle in verse 18?
David: I don't know.
Seth: In verse 14, one like a son of man, a singular human, will be given the authority. Verse 18: But the saints, plural, the holy ones, will be of the Most High, will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever and ever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When the kingdom— when the angel interprets the dream, he says this Son of Man represents all, all holy ones. Wow.
David: All the saints of the Most High.
Seth: And which makes sense of why there's multiple thrones placed, right? Who sits on the thrones? Oh yeah, the holy ones that are coterminous with also the Son of Man, right?
David: That is interesting because it is strange in verse 9, right after the beasts emerge and the Ancient of Days comes to his wheeled throne.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Verse 9 says thrones, plural, were placed, right? And the Ancient of Days took his one singular seat, right? So you have an earth littered with thrones and we even have numbers. Thousands and thousands served him. 10,000 times 10,000. Well, they're probably doing that from their thrones, right? So like, it makes so much sense that the angel is conflating those two things. Yeah. That when the Son of Man comes, everybody else gets their throne.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's crazy.
Seth: So what does that mean? Oh, oh, oh, just— oh, David. Oh, David. So There's two main streams of thought.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the phrase is the holy ones of the Most High. Mm-hmm. They are the ones who receive the kingdom. So there's two ways people have understood this phrasing. One, it's only ever used in the book of Daniel.
David: Fun.
Seth: Uh, so that's great. Later Jewish authors will use it to refer primarily to angelic beings.
David: Okay.
Seth: And within the book of Daniel, the holy ones are also referred to as angels throughout the book.
David: Okay.
Seth: And this is actually the majority interpretation, okay, that angels will sit on thrones when the one like the Son of Man, the representative of the angels.
David: Yes.
Seth: When he takes his throne, all the angels rule with him over the demonic beastly angels of the earth. Does that make—
David: like, that makes sense? Yes, yes, yes. Uh, yeah, well, I mean, it kind of— it makes sense because I can fill in the gaps. Yeah, yeah. But we might want to do that here.
Seth: So the crazy idea here is like, wait a second. Angels are sitting on thrones, right, at all right now?
David: Yes.
Seth: It— as we read further in Daniel, the idea of angels ruling becomes increasingly common. In Daniel 8 and 9, you have the Prince of Persia, you have the Prince of Greece, and these are, these are spiritual beings.
David: These aren't the actual Prince of Persia. No, like on the, on the ground.
Seth: And they're doing battle with the Archangel Michael, who's apparently Daniel, you have enthroned spiritual powers over physical territories fighting spiritual battles for and around spirit physical territories.
David: So it's a weird way to— it's a different worldview than most people have today.
Seth: Right. So let's name it here. I— this is not my favorite way to read this. However, I, I think the best, the way that I prefer to read, and I think there's a good amount of biblical evidence, is that this is actually the people of God ruling alongside God. Like it says in Ephesians 2, right? That we are resurrected with Christ and seated with him in the heavenly places. We're going to get there.
David: We're going to get there.
Seth: But let's camp out for a second and let's just assume that angels have a role in the right ordering of the world.
David: Okay. Yes.
Seth: Why would the right authority giving to angels be good news for us?
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay. Well, we have to set up that worldview first.
Seth: Yes. So, yes, the image we have is one like a son of man. So Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: When he takes his throne, with him the holy ones also take their thrones. The angels take their thrones. We've mentioned multiple times that the Book of Daniel is hyperlinked back to the story of Babel. Yes, the Tower of Babel, right?
David: Over and over again we've mentioned this. And yes, so the, the, the proof is there for sure. And at the Tower of Babel, when the people were all dispersed, that is where the Table of Nations comes from. So the Table of Nations is a list of about 70 nations that basically chronicle the biblical layout of the ancient world, the ancient world.
Seth: Right. And so the nations are scattered into these 70 people groups.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay. And they came from a tower built on pride, right?
David: They wanted to rule themselves.
Seth: Right.
David: And now they are split out into 70 different nations. And now who rules them?
Seth: Right. Because God was ruling, presumably. Right. God is the leader.
David: The idea was that the earth would be a place that God was enthroned over and he would be the spiritual ruler of the entire earth.
Seth: God breaks their man-made center of worship and power and scatters them.
David: Yes.
Seth: And what's interesting is like, okay, well, they just— he just scattered the nations. They just live in different parts of the world.
David: And for most of us, that's where the story ends.
Seth: Yeah, but that's not what Moses thought.
David: Nope. Moses thought something else happened.
Seth: Moses in Deuteronomy 32 says, when the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, and he's referring to the nations of the world at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11.
David: Yeah, which this is a biblical idea. Even Paul talks about it, that, that God ordains where every nation should be and sets their boundaries. Even Paul says that in the New Testament.
Seth: He says he divided up the sons of man.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Same phrase we have here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He sets up and he sets the boundaries of the people according to the number of the sons of God.
David: Yep.
Seth: Odd phrasing, but throughout scripture it's a reference to other spiritual beings.
David: Yes.
Seth: Not always good ones. No, not always good ones. Right.
David: So, I mean, the sons of God, uh, that phrase are the same ones who came and had sexual relations with the daughters of man and created the Nephilim.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So sons of God who ended up raping earthly women like that, those are bad. Those are fallen spiritual beings.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we don't have to assume that just because the sons of God are now given to the territories that the sons of man live in, that they have to be good angels, good spiritual beings.
Seth: Right. So the worldview then of somebody like Moses would have been that there's a true God in Israel. The God above all God, the ultimate sovereign, the Ancient of Days. But in the nations around them, there are small-g gods, Elohim, sons of Elohim, right? Beasts, spiritual beasts, right? Or as Daniel will call them, princes, princes of Persia, princes of Greece.
David: Yes.
Seth: And they exert spiritual power over the nations that inflames their brutality inflames, their idolatry inflames all the worst instincts of humanity.
David: That's right.
Seth: And their spiritual powers causing the devastation that the four giant beasts cause right here.
David: Right. And so yeah, all the nations of the world in this worldview are, are ruled by fallen evil spiritual forces.
Seth: Right.
David: And, and the table of nations being 70. And it's like the reason why there were 70 nations is because there were 70 sons of God. Now that doesn't mean there was actually like almost 69, not quite 71. Right, right. It means it was the, the full number of the sons of God. Yeah. And the full number of the nations of the earth matched so that each one could have its own ruler.
Seth: So tons of backstory.
David: Yes.
Seth: But if that understanding is correct, what does this mean? All those spiritual powers are now defeated.
David: Yes, they've been thrown down. And now good spiritual rulers have taken their place.
Seth: Yes, they've now taken the throne. Ones of God can now go back to life like it was before Babel.
David: Yeah, Lucifer's off the throne, Michael's back on the throne, right? Which would be good news, which would be spiritual worldview. Yes.
Seth: And like, I mean, I don't know how into like territorial spirits people are out there, but like there is this good news that the spiritual powers of this world are broken.
David: Yes.
Seth: Because the holy ones of God sit on their rightful thrones.
David: Right.
Seth: And we see this beginning to happen as Jesus casts out demons.
David: Yes. As his disciples cast out demons, they are showing that they are dethroning spiritual powers.
Seth: And just to go back to the 70 number, do you know how many disciples Jesus sends out? 70.
David: I do.
Seth: It's 70 disciples. At one point, is that 70 disciples to cast out demons, to break the spiritual powers over the globe.
David: Right. Like he's literally showing in the ministry of his disciples the fulfillment of Daniel 7, that they are going to dethrone spiritual powers. Like in this work. Yeah. Begins like you look at when Samaria received the good news in Acts and you had Simon the Sorcerer. This was a— I mean, there are still excavated statues of this guy. He was famous, so famous as a mighty spiritual worker. He could do miracles and magic. I mean, he was most likely embodied by a spiritual power to perform what were actually demonically empowered miracles. And people worshiped him and he ruled Samaria. And yet God, God changed him with the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit beat the angelic spirits. Yeah, like that's what's happening.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Dethroning spiritual powers is part of the Christian life. And I know that's weird for a lot of people to hear.
Seth: So weird.
David: It's kind of weird to say because it's so outside of our— the way we view the world, right?
Seth: But Jesus, he's the Lord of Hosts.
David: Yes, there are lots of spiritual beings like—
Seth: and that's That's like a Lord of Hosts, a military language, right? Jesus is the captain from his delegated throne next to God of an army of spiritual beings doing battle with the evil and demonic powers and beasts of the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's ruling. He is winning. He cannot be beaten.
David: Right.
Seth: That is part of the good news of Daniel.
David: Yes.
Seth: 7.
David: Yes. That the evil spiritual forces in this world will not win.
Seth: You know, I would probably say it this way, like we said, like, okay, there's two different ways to understand. Maybe it's angels. Maybe it's the people of God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I think it could easily be both.
David: Sure.
Seth: There's no reason why it can't be. And I think it must be because that's the picture of the new life Jesus inaugurates as King of the World, one that does battle and beats the supernatural powers behind the powers.
David: And no less so is this true than when the New Testament authors pick up on this and say that we rule with Jesus from thrones and that we will one day judge angels, whatever that means in the New Testament.
Seth: —And yeah, we will judge angels. Wait a second, when were we working with angels and then having to determine how well they did in their job?
David: Like, what, what, when did this happen? Yeah, but there's— it's both. It has to be both.
Seth: It has to be both. Yeah. So that's the good news of angels, the holy ones, the angels of God taking their throne. But let's just assume for a second, but the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom. And possess the kingdom forever and ever. What if that's the people of God? Right. What if that's the oppressed of Israel? What if that's you and me? What if that's you and me? Yeah. Taking our thrones. Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah. It means that we are finally getting back to our original purpose of being on this planet to begin with. Mm. That when God put us in the Garden of Eden, he gave us dominion to cultivate and tend, to be fruitful and multiply and be a force for his good image and character. On this planet. Yeah, it means we get to fulfill the reason why we were made, right? And stop being ruled and start to rule, and stop like being put underfoot and start caring for things that are under our feet. Yeah, like it means we actually get to be human and stop being beasts, right? It means we get to live on planet Earth the way we were intended to. Like, that's all just pulling from Eden. There's a bunch more reasons why this is good news, but just from completion of the Eden story, it's good news.
Seth: Yeah, when Jesus takes his throne— Jesus takes his throne next to the Ancient of Days, he raises us up with him because we and him are the same.
David: Like, you know, like, we can't go somewhere he is not. He can't go somewhere we are not because we are in him.
Seth: And that's that. Now, I've already said it, but that's how Ephesians 2 describes what it means to join the kingdom of God. We will be joined with him and are seated with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. And right before that, he said, you were once slaves to the prince of the power of the air, right? He makes this a spiritual reality.
David: He does.
Seth: And he conflates the idea of angels and the sons of God ruling simultaneously.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, that's part of the thing.
David: Ephesians 2 might be the perfect interpretation of Daniel 7.
Seth: Daniel 7. Um, and the idea that we rule with God Let's talk about that. What does that even mean?
David: Well, I mean, I can't answer that question without it just being all about Eden again. Yeah, because that's where it started, was God ruled the whole cosmos. And then he created a world and said, you rule it. I'm your ruler. Yeah, but now you rule the earth. He gave dominion to humanity. So we are ruling with God since the beginning. And I think what that means is that you know, kind of like Darius, right? In the last episode, we talked about how Darius, when he starts taking over Babylon, he puts 120 satraps around, you know, his kingdom to manage it. Like, that's how God has chosen. It's not how God had to, but it's how God has chosen to rule the earth, is with us to put little versions of himself all over the globe and thus make it perfect. And so wherever you find yourself, be it in exile, be it in a normal job, be it as a housewife, be it in a place of oppression or a place of abundance, your job is to rule with God by treating those around you and adjudicating the situations around you and bending the structure of the world around you toward the ends that God would do it if he was ruling on earth instead of you. Mm-hmm. You are meant to rule your little kingdom, however small or big that is, as if you were Jesus himself. How would Jesus rule in your home? How would Jesus rule in your school? How would Jesus rule at your work, in your backyard, with your neighbors, in your church, at an HOA meeting? Yeah. What would it look like if King Jesus showed up here as the gentle and lowly lamb? Right. It would look like you being a little Jesus in your neighborhood. That's what it looks like to rule with God. Yeah.
Seth: It means spiritual power. It does. Like it would have meant if it was the holy ones. Human beings still do battle with spiritual forces.
David: Yeah. All the time. Paul says that's our job.
Seth: He does. Yeah. What are you talking about?
David: Your, your fight is not against flesh and blood. That's exactly, that's exactly right. But against the spiritual authorities and powers. So take 'em down.
Seth: So take 'em down. Like when we rule with God while we still live and before he comes back, We do battle with spiritual forces daily. Mm. And then so like, that's all what's happening now. Even like sickness. Mm. Throughout scripture, there's a link between spiritual oppression and sickness. And one of the things that Jesus does when he heals people is he's rolling back the powers of darkness. Right. And what's one of the things that we are meant to do? Pray for the sick. Yeah. And they will be healed. Right. Like part of spiritual warfare is praying for sick people. Yeah. And then when they get better, that's us defeating a beast.
David: That's right. That's absolutely right. And like, and to also to have spiritual powers to do what Daniel keeps doing throughout the book, to have dreams and visions.
Seth: That's right.
David: So that people can know what God's up to in the world and can hear his reassuring voice.
Seth: Have you heard of spiritual gifts?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Have you ever heard of spiritual gifts or the fruits of the spirit? Right. Like these are all of enjoy. Like these are all things that are are given to us to be empowered to do because Jesus is on the throne. Yeah, because Jesus is ascended, sitting next to the Ancient of Days, spiritual gifts can become ours. The fruits of the Spirit can be ours. Sickness can be prayed for. Demons can be rolled back. We can affect and make Edens. We can finally be humans like Adam and Eve were meant to. Jesus being enthroned as God's regent changes the whole world.
David: That's right. Yeah, because now his hosts of heaven are now also on earth. Yeah, his host. Yes. Because the Spirit of God lives in us. Yes, that's so. And now, oh, and now we are little versions of a cloud rider and a son of man because now the Spirit of Jesus himself has come to live in a son of man. Right. We are now—
Seth: we get to the spirit that the cloud dwelt over the temple where the spirit was. Yes, exactly.
David: Spirit. That's what I'm trying to say. Yes. Is now in us and we ride clouds. That's how we can go out and conquer is because Jesus is with us, because we are his vassals and ambassadors. We carry his signet seal. We do it in the name of Jesus who is on the throne.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah. Whew. There's— I'll just throw this out there because why not? At this point. At this point, why not? Jesus talks about this passage with his disciples in Matthew 19. Okay, he says— this is after the rich young ruler. Oh, uh, the rich, like, who can enter the kingdom of God? Like, and he says, well, we— the disciples say, well, we've left everything to follow you. What will there be for us because we've left everything? And Jesus responds this way. He says, truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, referring to himself, You who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. So there's not just a, a right now reality of like, what does it mean to reign with Jesus right now, right? There is an eternal reality where at least the 12 apostles— but I think the text would say even more of us. Don't you know that you'll judge angels, right? By when Paul like will rule God's kingdom alongside of him. As we expand the Garden of Eden around the whole world, and presumably the galaxy, maybe at one point, yeah, God will delegate some authority to Venus to us. And we will have the pleasure of being one of God's counselors, being one of the wise men of God. And telling him about what we've done today and getting God's advice as we cultivate a garden, right, in the Sahara.
David: Like, people, I just want everyone to know what Seth is describing right now is what most Christians would call, quote unquote, heaven.
Seth: Yeah, that's— this is heaven. I've said that. Yeah, no, that's heaven.
David: This is heaven. This is the biblical picture of heaven. Yeah. Is that we rule with God again in a new and better Garden of Eden where we are cultivating the earth alongside him. Maybe Venus.
Seth: I don't know. Maybe Venus.
David: I don't know about Venus. But, you know, like, that is the picture of heaven. Heaven is not riding on clouds forever, playing harps and bagpipes. No. Yeah, it's, it's being here with King Jesus, ruling the earth with him forever, with eternal dominion, with no sickness, with all happiness, and fulfilling our humanness and our God-image-ness. Forever, perfectly, with so much satisfaction in what we get to do every day. Like, that is heaven, is working and being and enjoying, right, with Jesus. Like, if you take the best parts of your life that you— like, the things in this world that you love, you know, the things in this world that you long to go see, the places you long to visit that you know you never will— imagine them perfected. And then imagine you getting to enjoy them and making them better. And, you know, like, that is heaven. I just— right. We don't always afford ourselves the opportunity to talk about the good news of the returning, the new creation. Yeah, but that's what thrones on earth looks like when King Jesus rules.
Seth: I also have this, like, you know, we have these Nebuchadnezzar and his counselors. Daniel is the son of man. And he, as he talks to Nebuchadnezzar, this person who thinks he's God, he does all this good. In Babylon. So just imagine Jesus, the true God, has us as his Daniel, as one of the ascended sons of men, one of the daughters of men, counseling and providing our wisdom, which he doesn't need but invites anyway. And we build something together. Like the idea of building a greenhouse with Jesus. Oh, that sounds wonderful. Right? Like, I'm like, I don't think about like the reality of—
David: or if you're not into gardening, building a roller coaster, whatever, you know, whatever it is. Coding with the glory of Jesus.
Seth: Coding to the glory of God. Like working with Jesus on anything. On a car. Right. Like working with my dad is a pleasure. Right. Like, you know, like that feeling of like I'm working with somebody who are, are an expert in the field.
David: Right. Ruler of my kingdom. Jesus. Yeah. It is also interesting you said that and I was like, oh, it's such an obvious pattern in Daniel. Where you have Nebuchadnezzar and his courtroom of astrologers and magicians, and then you have Darius and his 120 satraps, and you have King Jesus. Yeah. And his throne room of advisors and people and counselors and workers. And that's us. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Cool, cool.
Seth: You know what else happens? What else happens? When Jesus takes his throne and the holy ones take their thrones next to him.
David: I, I don't—
Seth: I don't— all peoples, nations, and languages worship him. I think we've said this already in previous episodes.
David: What everyone has been grabbing for all throughout Daniel, what Nebuchadnezzar tried to consolidate, what Darius tries to consolidate through being the lone intercessor of the world, Jesus actually does. He does it. All nations will bow to him and come. And it's the— also the out— like the overturning of Babel. Right, like, right, finally universal peace.
Seth: Mm-hmm. All people— and I mean, that's what happened at Pentecost. Yes, that's right. All peoples and nations and languages from around Jerusalem. Yep. One language was— everyone heard everyone in their own language. And what they go out doing?
David: Proclaiming the glory of God to all the nations of the world after being empowered by the Holy Spirit and seeing dreams and visions like Joel 2 said. Yes. Yeah, I mean, all of this is piled up on top of each other.
Seth: Wow.
David: Okay. My heart can't take anymore.
Seth: That's, that's the good news of the ascended Son of Man.
David: That's such good news.
Seth: The vision goes on to explain a little bit more detail, the fourth beast and what he will do and what it looks like. But we've already said this, the good, like we'll get to the identity of the fourth beast in the coming chapters.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because it's repeated. I think it is Rome. I think the 4 beasts are Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, and Greece is mentioned in chapter 8, right? And then the final one is Rome. And why do I think it is Rome? For a whole bunch of reasons within the text, but also because Jesus comes during the Roman Empire, right?
David: He is the uncut stone, the throne that descends on the earth during what empire? During the empire of the 4th beast.
Seth: During the empire of the fourth beast. I think that's—
David: 10 horns, Rome had 10 hills.
Seth: I think that's part, right, of the equation.
David: Revelation repeats the fourth beast and identifies it as Rome.
Seth: But even if it was Greece, or maybe if it was talking about America or China, it doesn't ultimately matter because the point is like, this is how all empires act.
David: That's right. There's a cycle of empires that have continually risen up, crushed each other, eaten each other and created terror for the son of man under their feet.
Seth: No Jew reading Daniel in his day would have known a name to ascribe to the fourth beast. No, it would just been another empire and a long list of empires that have oppressed them. Right.
David: And they might have gotten the point that, man, is this just going to go on forever? No, because especially like, I mean, was Germany in World War II a beast? You bet it was, right? You bet it was.
Seth: But what's the good news people need in moments like that? Yes. That there is ascended Son of Man seating on his throne above the beast, giving and delegating authority to destroy the beasts of the world among the people of God.
David: Yeah, and that's really good news. Wow. Okay, well, thank you guys so much for joining us for Daniel 7. That was amazing, at least for me. My heart, my heart feels full. It's full. So, uh, next week we, we kind of up in the air fun. But we're gonna go into 8 through 12, and it's just tons of visions, tons of imagery, tons of symbolism. And we're not quite sure how we're going to go about it yet, if we're going to try to take it all in one thrust or if we need to break it up. But right, whatever we do, you're going to want to join us for it.
Seth: It just gets deep. The well gets deeper. Well, gets deeper.
David: Well, gets deeper. So yeah, thank you guys for joining us for Daniel 7, and we'll see you, uh, through the rest of Daniel.
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