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Daniel 8: Rams, Goats, and Abominations

About This Episode

Daniel dreams of a ram and a goat with one horn (a uni-goat). An angel tells Daniel that these beasts are images of two coming kingdoms that will lead to a great abomination. Seth and David tackle the abomination that causes desolation and the significance of the destruction of the temple.

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The End of the World in Daniel 8 and 9: Rams, Goats, and the Hope of a Numbered Day

Show Notes

David and Seth continue their journey through the Book of Daniel, diving into chapters 8 and 9 where visions of rams, goats, and mysterious numbers reveal God's sovereign control over history. These chapters contain some of the most debated prophecies in Scripture, yet their central message offers profound hope for anyone who feels crushed under the weight of empire and longs for home.

Understanding Apocalyptic Literature and Its Purpose

Before unpacking Daniel's visions, it helps to understand the genre Daniel is working within. Apocalyptic literature was not unique to the Hebrew Bible. The Mesopotamians and Canaanites had their own apocalyptic writings, and this style of storytelling was a common way to speak about the power of gods in the world of humans. These ancient texts typically featured spiritual combat in the heavens, dreams and visions received by representative humans, and repetitive cycles of events unfolding over and over again.

The primary purpose of apocalyptic literature across the ancient Near East was to prove the supremacy of one god over all the other gods in the pantheon. When a Babylonian opened their apocalyptic texts, they expected to see how Babylon's god was supreme over all other gods. This genre functioned almost like national propaganda, explaining why their nation was the best and why their gods always won. The literature communicated theology, philosophy, and history all at once, but it did so through cosmic storytelling rather than through treatises or essays making logical arguments.

What makes biblical apocalypse distinct is that it adds several unique elements. First, there is an announcement of a specific time of deliverance. The strange numbers in Daniel, such as 2,300 evenings and mornings or 70 weeks, point to this feature. Second, biblical apocalypse connects repentance to deliverance. The question for God's people living under monstrous empires becomes clear: wait for the appointed time in hope and repent so that the day of deliverance might come. These elements set Hebrew apocalyptic writing apart from its neighbors.

Why Apocalyptic Literature Is Good News

The genre of apocalypse itself carries good news. God's willingness to speak through this type of literature demonstrates His kind condescension. He is not afraid to speak in the language and style that people love. Just as God might subvert a Disney movie today to communicate truth, He was willing to use the epic cosmic storytelling that captivated ancient audiences. People loved hearing tales of beasts rising from the sea and cosmic battles in the heavens, and God said He could tell a story that way too.

Beyond condescension, God uses apocalyptic literature because He wants to enthrall His people, not merely inform them. The point of Daniel is not simply to provide a timeline of the next 400 years of history. If that were the goal, God could have just given Daniel a straightforward list. Instead, God wanted Daniel to have hope, to know who is truly God of gods. The best way to move the heart, inflame desires, and awaken hope is not through bullet-pointed facts but through glorious narrative that displays the power of the Ancient of Days and the brazenness of the Son of Man. God wants our hearts, not just our minds.

There is also something profound in recognizing Jesus Himself as the ultimate apocalypse. He wrote Himself not just into a literary genre but into humanity itself. The cosmic battles depicted in the heavens came down to a manger, a stable, blood, wine, and bread. Jesus condescended to do in real flesh and blood what the apocalyptic visions described in cosmic terms, seating His people at the right hand of God in heavenly places. Humanity became a genre for God to inhabit.

The Vision of the Ram and the Goat

In the third year of King Belshazzar, Daniel sees a vision of a ram standing by a canal with two horns, one higher than the other, with the higher one coming up last. This ram charges in every direction, and no beast can stand before it. Then a male goat appears from the west, flying across the earth without touching the ground, with a single conspicuous horn between its eyes. This floating "uni-goat" attacks the ram in powerful wrath, breaking its two horns and leaving the ram powerless.

The goat becomes exceedingly great, but when it is strong, its single horn breaks and four horns emerge in its place. Out of one of these four horns grows a little horn that expands toward the south, the east, and the glorious land. This little horn grows great, even to the host of heaven, throwing down some of the stars and trampling them. It becomes as great as the prince of the hosts, and during its reign the regular burnt offering is taken away and the sanctuary is overthrown. A holy one asks how long this will last, and the answer comes: 2,300 evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary will be restored.

The angel Gabriel appears to interpret this vision for Daniel. The ram with two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia. The goat represents the king of Greece. What is striking is that Gabriel identifies this vision as being "for the time of the end," yet the empires named, Media, Persia, and Greece, are all ancient history now. The "end of time" in Daniel does not refer to what modern Christians typically imagine as the second coming of Jesus separating people into heaven and hell. Instead, the end of time refers to the cessation of temple worship. In the Jewish imagination, the temple was the center of the world, the cosmos in miniature, heaven on earth. For that sacred space to stop functioning was equivalent to the end of the world.

Historical Fulfillment and the Abomination of Desolation

The visions in Daniel 8 and the end of Daniel 9 describe the same period of history from different angles, which is characteristic of apocalyptic literature. Daniel is being given a glimpse into the future that spans from the Persian Empire through the Greek Empire. The edict to restore Jerusalem came during the reign of King Cyrus, who is called an anointed one in Isaiah. Darius, whose age of 62 appears in the text, ruled in Babylon during this restoration period. The temple was rebuilt, as recorded in Ezra and Nehemiah.

But then the little horn rises during the Greek period. History tells us this was fulfilled in a man named Antiochus Epiphanes, a powerful Greek military leader who conquered much of the region. He set up his own fortress in Israel, stopped all the sacrifices, built an altar to Zeus inside the Jewish temple, and offered pigs, the ultimate desecration, in the holy place. This event, known as the abomination that causes desolation, was catastrophic for God's people. It also created a religious and political split among the Jews, with some embracing Hellenization while others, described as the wise ones who know their God, resisted and stood firm.

What may feel surprising is how earthly and specific these prophecies are. Rather than describing vague cosmic events at the end of all time, Daniel receives detailed information about political realities, about one ruler overtaking another, about a pig being sacrificed on an altar that would divide the Jewish people into groups like the Sadducees and Pharisees. God demonstrates through these prophecies that He is not just the God of Israel but the God of history itself, controlling events on the ground in dirty, boots-on-the-ground reality.

The Mystery and Hope of the Numbers

The numbers in Daniel, 2,300 evenings and mornings, 70 weeks, 1,290 days, 1,335 days, a time, times, and half a time, have generated countless interpretive schemes throughout history. Yet despite dozens of hours of study, no synchronization of these numbers produces a moment of obvious clarity where everything clicks into place. This may be exactly the point.

The Book of Daniel has already taught readers how to approach such mysteries through the story of Belshazzar. When strange writing appeared on the wall, mene mene tekel parsin, no one could interpret it until a man of God, Daniel, gave such a clear explanation that everyone recognized its truth. The proper response to mysterious writing on the wall is not to crack a code like a treasure hunt but to humble oneself before the God who wrote it. The numbers in Daniel should produce the same posture. The fact that the evil empire's days are numbered is more important than knowing precisely what the number means.

For Daniel, who could not look back on history to verify the prophecies, all he had was the confidence that a day was coming when God would act. The same is true for believers today who do not know when Jesus will return. A new book of Daniel could appear describing future conflicts and naming kingdoms never heard of, but what would truly matter is the assurance that after a fixed period, it will end. The spiritual powers will fall, a new Kingdom will reign, and God will dwell with His people again. That certainty, not the decoded number, is the hope that sustains people living under the weight of empire.

Jesus as the Final Temple and the Hope for Exiles

The question driving Daniel's visions is when the temple will be rebuilt so that God's people can dwell with Him again. Yet the fate of the temple at the end of Daniel remains somewhat undecided. Jesus picks up this thread in what is called the Olivet Discourse, where He prophesies that not one stone of the temple will be left upon another. His disciples immediately connect this to Daniel's language, asking about the signs of His coming and the end of the age.

Jesus is being an expert in apocalyptic literature by showing that the abomination of desolation, which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes, would repeat again. This happened in AD 70 when the Romans under Emperor Titus destroyed the temple, and it has not been rebuilt since. But Jesus makes clear that the final temple is not a building made of stone that can be threatened by earthly empires. The final temple is Himself. He is the one who was sacrificed, the final sacrifice, the final incense, the final offering. He has put an end to the unceasing operation of temple sacrifices by doing it once and for all.

For someone in exile who longs to go home and be with God, this is extraordinary news. As long as the temple was geopolitical and made of brick, it could never be truly safe. But Jesus, resurrected and exalted above all principalities, cannot be threatened by any earthly power. Even more, He comes and dwells with His people. Christians, embodied by His Spirit, are built together brick by brick to form a new temple. The Church is now the locus of God. God dwells with, in, and among His people wherever they are. For someone in exile who cannot get to a physical temple because it does not exist, Jesus says He will build His temple among them. He is with them.

This hope saves. It pulls believers out of the dark, crushed-under-empire feeling, not necessarily by changing current circumstances but by assuring them that a day has been set. Even if no one knows what it is, Jesus is coming. The God who revealed mysteries to Daniel and sustained him in Babylon offers His Spirit to sustain His people today. Believers can look at their brothers and sisters in the Messiah and find a glimpse of the Kingdom here and now, a moment of the presence of God in the person across from them. The writing is on the wall. The days are numbered. And the one who knows the day is coming to make His home with His people forever.

Transcript

David: [upbeat music] We now, as the church, f-form a new temple.

Seth: Mm.

David: We are now the locus of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We are where God dwells. God dwells with, and in, and among us.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so that's really good news for somebody in exile who's like, "I can't get to the temple because it doesn't exist." And Jesus says, "No, but I will build my temple among you."

Seth: Mm.

David: "I'm with you."

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us as we continue through Daniel. We're in Daniel 8 and chapter 9. Seth, how you feeling? We got, we got more visions coming.

Seth: So many more visions. [laughs]

David: So many more visions.

Seth: I felt like at the end of 7, I was, I was good. I had a lot of visions, and I was, I was good.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And I was happy. I was like, "I can handle the rest of the visions." And then I started reading the rest of the visions- [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... and studying them, like-

David: It's so heavy

Seth: ... it's so heavy. There's so much, but I am excited to talk about apocalyptic literature-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... again. Um, 'cause we've learned more about apocalyptic literature since the last time we were on air.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: We're like, "We should talk about, more about that."

David: Let's just keep digging, yeah. So I, I-I think one question I had-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... was, um, is apocalyptic literature unique to the Bible? Was it, um, a genre that was known and at least, or prevalent in some way among other contemporary cultures, or was this just something the Hebrews did? You know-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and how do they overlap? How are they different? I w- and I had questions like that.

Seth: Yeah, and I think you asked me similar to that at the beginning of the last episode.

David: Right.

Seth: But the short answer is yes.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The Bible is not the only people producing apocalyptic literature-

David: Right

Seth: ... during the time that Daniel would've been written. The Mesopotamians have their own apocalyptic genres. The Canaanites had their own-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... apocalyptic genres. It was a common way to talk about the power of the gods in the world of men. Like, that-

David: Right

Seth: ... was a common theme-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... th-that happened. And what we've already talked about are common themes throughout all ancient Near Eastern apocalyptic genre. The idea-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of like this deep spiritual combat happening in the heavens, the idea prophecies or dreams and visions being had by the rep- like, representative humans on the earth.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The idea of, like, repetitions and thing, like, ha-

David: Things happening over and over again.

Seth: Things happening over and over again. All that is really common in the world of Daniel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And what I thought was most fascinating was a quote that you pulled out-

David: Mm

Seth: ... was that the purpose of apocalyptic literature is to prove the supremacy of one god over all the other gods-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in the pantheon.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's the purpose of apocalyptic literature. If you're an-

David: Right

Seth: ... Akkadian, you open up your Akkadian apocalyptic literature to p- see how the Akkadian god is supreme over all the other gods.

David: Right.

Seth: That's why you read apocalyptic literature.

David: Yes, and I think that's really helpful to say, like, what's on the line? What, what are you expecting when you open up that genre of apocalypse? You're opening up to see which god in the pantheon of gods is the strongest. So it's like we, we, we don't probably consciously do this whenever we, uh, open up a genre of a movie or a book, but if you open up the genre of mystery-

Seth: Ah

David: ... you're expecting to be titillated.

Seth: Yes, you're expecting to not know-

David: Right

Seth: ... everything, but if you piece together the clues enough-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... you can figure out the ending.

David: Right. If you open up a fairy tale, you're like, "Man, everything's gets dark, but I know there will be a 'and they lived happily ever after.'"

Seth: Yeah.

David: If they don't, it's not a fairy tale.

Seth: That's right.

David: So how did, how do we get from darkness to happily ever after? That's on the line here. If you open up a book of history, you're expecting a series of chronological events that are told as factually as possible in order to accurately represent what has occurred in the past.

Seth: Yes.

David: There's expectation. Whenever you open up the genre of apocalypse, you are expecting to see in the grand scheme of history and the combative worlds of different f- world philosophies and national theo- theologies, whose god is best? Which religion wins? Whose-

Seth: Yes

David: ... territorial god is really god of gods and king of kings?

Seth: Yes, and-

David: That's what's on the line

Seth: ... that's exactly what's on the line. And remember, you just said it there, but, like, every nation assumed and took it for granted that their nation was headed up by a god or a spiritual being-

David: Right

Seth: ... and they could attribute the success of their nation to their god.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So when you open up an apocalyptic literature, you're also kind of reading, like, propaganda for your nation.

David: That's right.

Seth: This is like, oh, this is the national myth of why we're the best.

David: Yeah.

Seth: This is why Babylon always wins.

David: Right.

Seth: Our gods are the best gods.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I think the other thing that we pulled out from an, uh, an article we were reading on the history of apocalyptic literature is this idea that it is communicating theology, philosophy-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and history.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's doing it in a really unique way.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, you know, I think today if you were going to explore those topics, you would expect a treatise or an essay-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that made arguments and listed the reasons to back up those arguments of why-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that theology or world philosophy is the way it should be.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it would pull on history to pu- prove its arguments.

Seth: Yeah, if you... Yeah, yeah, like-

David: But, but this is like, no, no, no, let me tell you a story, a cosmic story.

Seth: I mean, it kinda makes me think of... Have you watched that new movie, Don't Look Up?

David: Oh, with, uh, Leonardo DiCaprio?

Seth: Yeah.

David: No, I haven't.

Seth: It's about, like, global warming or whatever.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: It's an apocalyptic movie.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: The world's about to end because of an asteroid-

David: Oh, okay

Seth: ... that's coming to earth, and it's a metaphor for global warming.

David: Got it.

Seth: So like you're in this world of symbols and things like that. And what's interesting about modern apocalyptic genre-

David: Mm

Seth: ... we don't believe in the gods.

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: So it's not about the supremacy of the gods. It's really about one of two things, the supremacy of the human will-

David: To be able to overcome and escape the coming-

Seth: Right

David: ... trouble

Seth: ... or the primacy of Mother Nature.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Like, Mother Nature wins.

David: Yeah, and bi- biology wins, and we c- we're going to have to be consumed by it, and-

Seth: Right. And so-

David: Can we exist in the wild?

Seth: Right. That's like, that's the point.

David: St- stripped back down to our n-

Seth: Yes

David: ... neanderthal core.

Seth: And like w- the way that, uh, Don't Look Up, uh, ends-

David: Mm

Seth: ... spoiler alert for anybody who's- [laughs]

David: Spoiler alert

Seth: ... is like the meteor comes and everyone dies.

David: Oh, wow.

Seth: Why?

David: Mother Nat- nature w- N- Mother Nature wins.

Seth: There's nothing more powerful than the world.

David: Right.

Seth: So-

David: So we better shape up.

Seth: Yes. That's, uh, that's the purpose.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like the... So if it's interesting then, it's like, okay, so we have our own versions of myth. Respect the world.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Valorize human ingenuity-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the will, and personal will. We have our own apocalyptic myth that teach us certain things.

David: Right.

Seth: Ancient Near Eastern apocalypse is, did the same thing.

David: Right. And let's also be clear, it's not, it's not weird for us that stories prove points.

Seth: No.

David: Right? I mean, think about every Disney movie ever made.

Seth: Yep.

David: It's that if you want to live your best life, you need to follow your heart, self-actualize, and buck the, um, the, like, stereotypes.

Seth: Leave the island.

David: Right.

Seth: Leave the castle.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Leave wherever you are.

David: 'Cause there are, there are stereotypes that are gonna hold you down and keep you away from your true self, and it's only by venturing out, branching out on your own, being true to yourself, that you will be happy.

Seth: Defeat the monsters.

David: Right, and defeat the monsters.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah. So anyway, this is what's happening.

Seth: This is what's happening.

David: They're telling history.

Seth: Mm.

David: They're explaining their, their national theology. They are describing the philosophy of the way they think the world works.

Seth: They're trying to make better citizens.

David: Mm-hmm. They're tr- and they're trying to form their citizens-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... through this all by telling a cosmic story.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that's what's happening in Daniel.

Seth: What's interesting is biblical apocalypses-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... obviously are pulling on all that same kind of vocabulary, similar images. So what do we have in Daniel? We have combat motifs. We have the horror of human evil blown up-

David: Mm

Seth: ... on cosmic scales, right?

David: Yep.

Seth: You have the horror of the state depicted as monsters.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: You have dreams and visions. You have a cosmic spiritual war behind the war. Like, you have all the same elements.

David: Right.

Seth: What's interesting about biblical apocalypses is they add a couple elements that are kind of unique-

David: Mm

Seth: ... because Go- God is above all the other gods.

David: Right.

Seth: And we're not trying to make propaganda for the State of Israel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We're trying to form the community of God in exile, who has no state.

David: Right.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So there's a couple things that are unique to the apocalypses in general, but particularly to Daniel. We have in biblical apocalypse the announcement of a specific time of deliverance.

David: Mm.

Seth: So we don't have that in modern apocalypse. There's no, [laughs] you know, like-

David: No

Seth: ... but like-

David: Right

Seth: ... or even in ancient apocalypse.

David: No, and that's a big, and there's another big difference is typically in, in other contemporary apocalypses, um, of Mesopotamia or the Canaanites, you would get the prophecies after the history. So you would be looking back at what happened-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and explain what happens. So say there was a war.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Right? And the Babylonians ride out against the Syrophoenicians or-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... you know, some other random empire that I'm probably being achronological about.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But, uh, they ride out against them. They win, and then someone writes an apocalypse, and they, they show that the beast of Babylon rose up out of the sea. And there was this other beast that was the enemy they were fighting, but the, their god, Baal, was on their side.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so they crushed the other beast. And they're-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... retelling the story of the battle through apocalyptic language.

Seth: Yeah.

David: What's unique about biblical prophecy is the prophecy occurs before the history.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So you don't have history being retold as-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... apocalyptic. You have apocalyptic literature telling you what's going to happen in history.

Seth: Yes.

David: Very different.

Seth: It is different. Although, I will say there are some good conservative scholars-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who believe that about the Book of Daniel.

David: Right.

Seth: But the point remains.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The fact that there's id- a, a specific time of deliverance in the future-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... it's a unique feature of biblical, uh, apocalyptic literature. And w- the way you'll notice that as we get into chapter 8 and chapter 9 and chapter 10 and 12, is all the crazy numbers.

David: Oh.

Seth: The numbers that everyone wonders, 2,300, 70 weeks, uh, 1,290. Like the-

David: 7, 62 and 1. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The time, times, and half a time. What are all those at bottoms? The naming, the announcement of a specific time of deliverance.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So we'll talk about that.

David: Okay.

Seth: We also have within, um, the biblical apocalypse, like, repentance leading to deliverance.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so we're gonna talk about probably these two most in this podcast episode, the idea of the announcement of a specific time of deliverance-

David: Right

Seth: ... and repentance leading to deliverance. These are, like, major themes. What do you do when you're ruled by the monsters?

David: Mm.

Seth: What, what do you do in the biblical apocalypse? You wait for the p- appointed time in hope and repent for the day of deliverance to come faster.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: That's, like, the hope of-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... biblical apocalypse.

David: Okay. That's all really helpful.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I feel like we have to give these primers because it's-

Seth: It's an, it's-

David: It's a lot of hard work to-

Seth: It's a different world

David: ... yeah, to get your head in a different world.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, because I think it's really important to say these images and this type of literature, we're going to want to assume it's weird.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Or it's intentionally vague, or it's trying to obfuscate on purpose.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David: It's not. To the original readers-

Seth: Mm

David: ... it's pretty clear what's going on.

Seth: Yep.

David: 'Cause they're not y- they're not weirded out by it.'Cause this is just n this is like reading a fairy tale.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause like, y- you, somebody who never read a fairy tale, they drop in and there's fairies and dragons, and they'd be like, "Uh, what is this?"

Seth: What-

David: And we're used to it.

Seth: Right.

David: We normalize those things.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so we're able to see through them to what the story that's actually going on.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Oh, this is a story of self-actualization.

Seth: Right.

David: Right? You're-

Seth: It's a coming of age story.

David: Right.

Seth: This is... Yeah, yeah. This is-

David: And they're gonna look past goats and monsters and chaotic waters-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to the story.

Seth: Right.

David: And the point. So I think that's al- always helpful to remind ourselves of.

Seth: Yes. But it's also good to name that Daniel is confused by the apocalypse he receives.

David: Always helpful to remind ourselves of this.

Seth: It's like, so these ideas are common ideas.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But it's not necessarily entirely clear-

David: No

Seth: ... what's being communicated.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Especially because, and I'm convinced that this is prophecy before the fact-

David: Right

Seth: ... like, Daniel's being given information before it actually happens.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So he's g- given a glimpse of the future, and he has no idea what a ram or a goat are meant to symbolize in the future.

David: And he has to have an interpreter come tell him.

Seth: Right.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So, like, it's, like, common of an idea. It's like, it's a common idea, but it's not necessarily clear.

David: Right.

Seth: So I just wanted to-

David: Yep

Seth: ... lay that out.

David: The genre is common, but the message is still a little unclear.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so the interpreter is needed.

Seth: Let's zoom out then.

David: Okay. Yep.

Seth: Why-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is God good to give us apocalyptic literature?

David: Yes.

Seth: Because He, He could have written a better h- a history, a clearer history for us.

David: Sure.

Seth: [laughs] You know, He could have done many-

David: Yes

Seth: ... many things.

David: Yes.

Seth: Why is it God good to give us apocalypses?

David: I have two, or maybe three, ideas.

Seth: Okay. [laughs]

David: One is I think it shows His kind condescension.

Seth: Mm.

David: Meaning that God is not afraid to speak our language.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's not afraid or above telling stories the way we tell stories.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, I think if God did it today, maybe He would subvert the, the Disney movie.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know? Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... and He's not afraid to do that. He's... People loved this, this genre.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it was like early theater. You know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: You would go, and you would hear these epic tales cast in the cosmos, and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you would sit at the edge of your seat listening to the stories about the beast rising out of the sea. And God's like, "I can tell a story that way."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, and so this leads to my second point, because I want you to be enthralled by it.

Seth: Mm.

David: Because God's not just about telling us facts. That's not what the point of Daniel... Like, the point of Daniel's not so he can know what the next 400 years is gonna look like.

Seth: No.

David: That's not the point.

Seth: No, it's-

David: If it was, He'd have been like, "Hey, here's the deal."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? The point is that he would have hope.

Seth: Mm.

David: That he would know who is God of Gods. And the best way to move the heart and to inflame-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the desires and to awaken hope-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is not to be like, "Okay, so here's the deal. 400 years is gonna really stink, but eventually I'm gonna s- save you."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's to show you in glorious narrative the power of the Ancient of Days and the, the-

Seth: Right

David: ... the brazenness of the Son-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of Man and how all the beasts will fall. Like, that's a story that will awaken hope-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and wonder in your heart, and I think God wants-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to do those things.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He wants our hearts, not just our minds.

Seth: It makes me think of, like, Jesus as an apocalypse in and of Himself.

David: Yes.

Seth: He writes Himself into hu- the human story.

David: That's right.

Seth: Like, He is God, and He condescends to humanity. He writes Himself into human narrative-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and human history, and then He does battle on the terms of real life. It's kind of like, it's almost like an anti-apocalypse. He, like... It's no longer cosmic.

David: Right.

Seth: It's no longer up in the stars, in the sky. There's no more beasts. No, it's a manger, and it's a stable.

David: Mm.

Seth: And there's blood, and there's wine.

David: Right.

Seth: And there's bread.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's an anti-apocalypse.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But Jesus comes condescending to us to do what? To do everything He's talked about up in the-

David: Mm

Seth: ... heavens, to seat us at the right hand of God in the heavenly places.

David: Right.

Seth: To, like, bring about the Kingdom of God.

David: Yeah. Here.

Seth: Here.

David: Yeah, in flesh and blood, in the ultimate condescension.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Not that He would write Himself into a genre, but actually write Himself into humanity.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. It-

Seth: Humanity is a genre for God. [laughs]

David: Yeah, right. Yeah. It... But it is also interesting to think about Jesus as the ultimate apocalypse, where it's like He, um-

Seth: I mean, like-

David: The Spirit of God hovered over Mary, you know? Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in this new act of primordial creation.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, you know, He has this g- this, He rose up, He came up out of Egypt and traveled to Nazareth and-

Seth: Or even, like, the way that Ephesians describes us apart from Jesus-

David: Mm

Seth: ... we were ruled by the prince of the power of the air.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Children of wrath-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like the rest of mankind. But God being-

David: Right

Seth: ... rich in mercy because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespass and sins, seated us at the right hand in-

David: Right

Seth: ... heavenly places. Like, that's an apocalypse.

David: That's an apocalypse right there. [laughs]

Seth: That's an apocalypse in three verses. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Yeah. That's really fun to think about. I really like that.

Seth: Um-

David: But I do think it's good news that God's not afraid to speak our language, to tell us stories that will enthrall us, and to, like, write Himself into our story. I think those are all really good reasons why apocalypse as a genre is good news. [laughs] That's really cool. [gentle music]

Seth: Okay, so let's actually talk about Daniel, chapter eight. We're gonna attempt to get to two, through two visions today.

David: Okay.

Seth: The vision of the ram and the goat-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that Daniel has in the third year of King Belshazzar, and then in the first year of Darius's rule, he has a vision of 70 weeks. What is the vision of the ram and the goat all about? Get us into this first vision.

David: Yeah. So he sees this vision, and there's, what? There's this ram on a, on, like, a stream, near a stream, right?

Seth: Yeah, verse three, "I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of a canal."

David: Okay.

Seth: "It had two horns. Both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last." [laughs] Okay. More odd details. "But then I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward, and no beast-Could stand before him

David: So he, so you have a ram with two horns.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: One came up a little later. One's taller than the other, so you probably have, like, two kingdoms, one bigger than the other. One that comes first, one that comes second.

Seth: Two ma- two kings, perhaps.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And they have ultimate dominion.

Seth: Yeah.

David: They're running north, south, east and west. No one can stop them.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But maybe they're hedged in by a boundary marker, like a canal or something.

Seth: Okay.

David: So, like, okay.

Seth: So-

David: I'm just, this is just me trying to get more comfy in the-

Seth: To, right, right

David: ... in the, in the literature

Seth: What we have, we know that throughout the narrative, nations are described as animals-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and beasts. Okay, so okay, we're probably talking-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... political reality.

David: And then, but then the greatest development happens. A uni-goat.

Seth: A uni-goat. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Pops up out of nowhere.

Seth: Behold a g- a male goat from the west, across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground. A floating-

David: Oh, a floating uni-goat.

Seth: A floating uni-goat.

David: So it is a uni-goat because unicorns can fly.

Seth: Uni-corns can fly. Uni-goats can fly, and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.

David: [laughs] Con- I like that it's conspicuous.

Seth: Conspicuous horn. Um, and then he came to the ram, uh, with, so again, another empire.

David: Yep.

Seth: So this new empire-

David: A sing- singular empire

Seth: ... singular.

David: Another beast comes with one horn, unified in the middle of its head, floats over, and uni-goat stabs

Seth: Ran at him in powerful wrath. [laughs] And I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him and struck the ram.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So stabs the ram, breaking his two horns. So-

David: Oh, stabs his horns or something. Yeah

Seth: ... and the ram had no power to stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power.

David: Then the goat becomes exceedingly great.

Seth: But when he was strong, his horn's broken, and instead of it, there came up four more horns.

David: He's a quadicorn.

Seth: Quadicorn.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And out of one of the horns came a little horn. So imagine four horns-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and then another horn growing out of another horn?

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Like a s- uh, antler? Like a stag?

David: Oh, maybe.

Seth: Like a m- um... And it grew towards the south and towards the east and towards the glorious land, and it grew great, even to the host of heaven.

David: Mm.

Seth: So interesting, just to pull back on all this language we've been talking about. Nations are embodied as animals, floating animals, uni-goat animals. Horns are representations of leaders, it seems like.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And they can go up to the host of heaven. They're also spiritual beings, almost.

David: Mm-hmm. Or they're trying to ascend to the place of God. And they have certain jurisdictions that's growing to the east and the west and toward the holy land and, okay.

Seth: And, yeah. And this, uh, and some of the hosts, and some of the th- stars, it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.

David: Oh, so maybe it's deposing kingdoms.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because the stars would've been in the, the pantheon of the gods. And so perhaps this is saying that-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... there were princes, you know-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, you know, fallen angels or something-

Seth: Right

David: ... over these other territories, and they're conquering them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: They're deposing kingdoms.

Seth: There is also, like, a lot of ancient literature that thinks that stars are spiritual beings.

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: Right.

David: That's what I'm getting at.

Seth: So, so the idea is, like, this political leader is so strong, he can ascend to the gods-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and cast them down.

David: Which is maybe why his horns grows to the hosts of heaven.

Seth: Yeah. He, and he becomes great, even as great as the prince of the hosts.

David: Oh.

Seth: Who's that?

David: Hmm.

Seth: We, we don't know. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: But, but you should, we should flag that throughout this last next ent- section, princes are often spiritual powers, so-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the, the prince-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of the spiritual powers. And during his reign, so we get all this cosmic language, verse 11, "And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown."

David: Mm.

Seth: Weird. "And a host will be given over to it, together with the regular burnt offerings, because of transgression. It'll be thrown, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper. And then a holy one will start speaking. How long is this gonna take? How long will the regular burnt offerings no longer be given?"

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "And the being said to me, 'For 2,300 evenings and mornings. And then the sanctuary will be restored to its right- its rightful state.'"

David: And that's the vision.

Seth: That's the vision.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So interesting, you have this two warring empires, it seems.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: One of those warring empires stops the worship of the temple in Jerusalem.

David: Right.

Seth: But then after a time, worship is restored in Jerusalem.

David: After 2,300 evenings.

Seth: After 2,300 mornings and evenings.

David: Mornings and evenings, right.

Seth: Um, and what's interesting about that vision, even that detail, is if this is the, the temple of Jerusalem, the temple in Jerusalem is destroyed currently.

David: Right.

Seth: So if Daniel's seeing this vision, he would probably be confused because wait a second, the temple's destroyed, but he's seeing another temple-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or hearing of another temple being destroyed, sacrifices stopping, and then it being built again.

David: Right.

Seth: Odd.

David: Odd.

Seth: Odd language. Okay, so here is the interpretation. The angel Gabriel shows up.

David: Oh, boy.

Seth: And, uh, another angel tells Gabriel, "Make this man understand the vision." And so he comes near to Daniel, and G- Daniel's frightened by Gabriel, I guess as you would be.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then he says this, which is also really interesting. "Understand, oh son of man, that the vision that you just saw is for the time of the end."

David: Hmm.

Seth: So let's pause here for a second.

David: Okay.

Seth: Because what I want to say, or what I would assume he's talking about, is the end of time.

David: Right.

Seth: Based on just, like, oh, I've never heard of the ram or the goat before. Oh, the stars are gonna come out of the heavens.

David: Right.

Seth: The temple will stop offering sacrifices. Man, that seems like the end of the world to me.

David: This is, this is Armageddon.

Seth: This is Armageddon. This is the time of the end.

David: Right.

Seth: Right?

David: No.

Seth: Why-

David: [laughs] Not in the way that we would conceive of that today.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause when we think the end of time, w- as Christians at least, we think of Jesus' second coming when, you know, he'll separate people into heaven and hell, and the, the eternal reign-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of God-

Seth: Right

David: ... comes to earth.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, so-

Seth: That's what I think of when I think-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of the end of time.

David: That's not the end of time that Daniel and this vision have in mind.

Seth: Because verse 19, "I'm gonna make known to you the dream." And it refers to the pointed time of the end. He's, he repeats himself.

David: Mm.

Seth: Verse 20

David: As for the ram you saw with two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.

Seth: Right.

David: W- wait a second.

Seth: Hold on.

David: Media and Persia happened a long time ago.

Seth: A long time ago.

David: And time is still ticking. [laughs]

Seth: So it says the ram with two horns, the double-pronged kingdom-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... of Media and Persia.

David: Yep, one horn's Media, one h- one horn's Persia.

Seth: And the goat is the king of Greece.

David: Right.

Seth: The vision ends with Greece, but, correct me-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... if I'm wrong, but we're, we still, we're not in the Matrix, right?

David: We're-

Seth: Like, our human history has continued-

David: I think my-

Seth: ... after Greece

David: ... my c- my, my watch is still ticking-

Seth: Okay [laughs]

David: ... even though the Grecian Empire ended centuries ago.

Seth: Right

David: ... a m- millennials ago.

Seth: So all we're trying to say here is that when the end of time is defined for us-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in this passage by the coming of the kingdom of Greece.

David: Yes.

Seth: Which why would the Biblical authors begin to think about the coming of the kingdom of Greece as the end of the world? Or the end of time.

David: Right. It, it's because of what that kingdom does, what that little horn does-

Seth: Mm

David: ... at the end of the vision. He des- he destroys the, or halts the sacrifices of the temple. He puts-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the function of the Jerusalem temple to a halt, which in the Jewish imagination, the temple is the center of the world.

Seth: Mm.

David: In fact, the temple is the cosmos, the universe in miniature. It is heaven on Earth. It is the world within the world. And so for the function, the s- for that world to stop spinning-

Seth: Right

David: ... for that universe to stop functioning, is akin to the end of time.

Seth: So would pe-

David: The end of the world.

Seth: So I mean, a- as I said already, the temple is already destroyed.

David: Right.

Seth: So apparently it'll be rebuilt, and it'll be destroyed again. And when it's rebuilt and re- destroyed again, that's the end of the world.

David: Right.

Seth: W- so was the first destruction of the temple described, like, the end of time?

David: Uh, yes, but not by the Daniel's visions.

Seth: Okay.

David: But in the major prophets and in some of the minor prophets, um, whenever they were predicting the coming of the Babylonian Empire, which started the Book of Daniel [laughs] which we pick up-

Seth: Right. Right, right, right

David: ... the very beginning of the Book of Daniel, where the temple is destroyed and its vessels are cleaned out.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, whenever you read certain passages in Isaiah and in some of the minor prophets, you have this language of, like, the sun turning t- the, to, to the blacking out and the moon turning to blood and stars falling from the heavens. You have this end of the world language, and that's because, yes, the, even the, the prophets at the time saw, uh, the destruction of Israel's temple and the taking of Israel's people into exile as the end of the world.

Seth: Hmm.

David: The, the world was ending because the, the place where God dwelt and the mechanism of dwelling with him, i.e. the temple-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... was all brought to a halt. That's-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... the end of the world.

Seth: Okay. So maybe before we jump into more of that, this sounds an awful lot like the vision at the end of Daniel 9 as well.

David: That's right.

Seth: So w- we're gonna come back to Daniel 9, but at the very end of Daniel 9 is this prophecy about 70 weeks being decreed.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And during the 70 weeks, it's actually talks about what the first vision doesn't talk about. "Know therefore that from the going out of the world, the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem, to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there will be seven weeks." So, oh, that's interesting, that part that was left out of the first vision is now here. There's a restoration-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... of the temple, and then for 62 weeks it'll be built again, but in a troubled time, and then after that time there'll be a prince of the prince who is to come and destroy-

David: Right

Seth: ... the temple again.

David: Which is what the little horn does that we already read about in Greece.

Seth: And it en- it, its end shall come with a flood, and to that end, there shall be war, and desolations are decreed.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he w- and he's called a desolator-

David: Right

Seth: ... later.

David: Again, yeah.

Seth: Um, and then later on in the prophecies in Daniel 11 and 12, there's an abomination that causes desolation inside the temple.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So just make sure I'm tracking here, it sounds like Daniel's being given vision after vision of the same thing happening.

David: Yes, which is classic apocalyptic literature.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It just tells the same story over and over and over again. So if Babylon's myth was gonna tell-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the story of a battle that happened on the fields of Persia, they're going to talk about it like a beast coming out of the sea and crushing another beast. Then they're gonna tell the story of the same battle as a goat and another ram going at it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And they're gonna tell another story of an eagle flying out of the sky and swooping down on its prey.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But they're all repeating the story of the same battle.

Seth: Interesting.

David: And so that's classic apocalyptic literature, to take one event and stack meanings and images on top of it in order to communicate a full panoramic of the picture.

Seth: Okay. So what seems to be happening here is that Daniel is legitimately being given a glimpse into the future.

David: Yeah, right.

Seth: We're told that Persia, uh, Persia and Media-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... a dual empire's gonna come.

David: Right.

Seth: Followed by Greece.

David: Yep.

Seth: Now, in the 70 weeks, we don't have, um, names given.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But we do have this edict of Jerusalem being restored.

David: Right.

Seth: And we know from history-

David: Even Biblical history

Seth: ... even Biblical history, that that happened during the reign of King Cyrus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he put King Darius-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... on the throne in Babylon.

David: Right, the Darius we meet in Daniel.

Seth: The Darius we meet in Daniel.

David: That's right.

Seth: So what's interesting here is the first seven weeks, this ruler comes up and decrees the temple to be restored.

David: And that same ruler, Cyrus, is prophesied about in Isaiah-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to be the one who will bring God's people back into the land.

Seth: And he's called the anointed one there, right?

David: Yes, a Messiah.

Seth: And he's called, and he's called an anointed one here as well.

David: There you go.

Seth: And then what's interesting, the 62 weeks, we have actually heard the number 62 already in the Book of Daniel.

David: It's Darius' age itself.

Seth: It's Darius' age when he takes the throne of Babylon.

David: Right.

Seth: So it'd be interesting to think, like, so Cyrus.

David: Seven.

Seth: Seven. Darius, 62.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then after that time, the people of the prince who is to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple.And desolations will be decreed

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: And a desolator will come, and he'll put an end to sacrifices and offerings.

David: Right. So basically, we're getting a, we're getting a preview of the coming history, which is basically, um, I know you're, I know you're in exile right now.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I know the temple is laid to waste, but Cyrus is gonna be risen up-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and he's going to send people back into, uh, Jerusalem to rebuild the temple.

Seth: While that's happening-

David: This happens

Seth: ... while Darius is on the throne.

David: While Darius is on the throne. That happens in Ezra and Nehemiah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You can go read that story.

Seth: Yes.

David: And these same names are mentioned. So this happens.

Seth: But then after that, the kingdom of Greece will rise up.

David: That's right.

Seth: And during the reign of the empire of Greece-

David: The little horn

Seth: ... the little horn will rise up, and he's going to desolate the temple.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: What is that talking about?

David: Right. Well, we kn- we know this happened in history, so I don't know how clear that would've been to Daniel.

Seth: Right. I mean, this is, would've been hundreds of years-

David: Yes [laughs]

Seth: ... after having received this.

David: Right. So he only has an impression of what this is going to look like. All he knows is, okay, the temple's going to get rebuilt, but then it's going to be-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... desecrated.

Seth: Yes.

David: And we know this happened when?

Seth: We know this happened, a, a version of this happened-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... during the reign of a man named Antiochus Epiphanes.

David: Great Greek name.

Seth: Great [laughs] great, great name.

David: It's a classic Greek name.

Seth: He was a really powerful general military force, and he conquers a ton-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of Mesopotamia, and once he gets through Israel, he, uh, sets up his own fortress-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in Israel called Acra.

David: Mm.

Seth: He, um, stops all the sacrifices-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in Israel for a time. He then builds a new altar of Zeus inside Israel's temple, and, uh, e- I think it was called Baalshemem.

David: Yeah, it's, they're the Grecian version of-

Seth: Of, yeah, the Syrian version.

David: The Syrian version.

Seth: Syrian version of that. And then he offered pigs in the-

David: Right

Seth: ... in the Jewish temple-

David: Which is-

Seth: ... to Zeus

David: ... the ultimate desecration

Seth: ... because they're not kosher.

David: Right.

Seth: They're unclean, and he razes Israel to the ground.

David: Right. It would-

Seth: After it had, had been rebuilt

David: ... yeah, it would be something like serving tarantulas and scorpions for the Lord's Supper or something.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Like, you know, I'm trying to think-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... like, like [laughs] it's just-

Seth: Right.

David: It's so, and it's so much more offensive even than that. It's just-

Seth: It's-

David: ... so offensive.

Seth: It's a big deal.

David: It's a big deal.

Seth: And then what's interesting is if you read Daniel 11, you hear the same prophecy given again but with all these unnamed kings and kingdoms.

David: Yep.

Seth: Um, and I think we will talk about that in a future podcast episode.

David: Yes.

Seth: But he says it all again in Daniel 11. Let me just read a part of it.

David: Okay.

Seth: Daniel 11:31, "Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall u- shall set up the abomination that makes desolate. And he will seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant. But the people who know their God will stand firm and take sh- action, and the wise among the people of God may understand." And so what that's describing too is even the religious and political split that happened after Antiochus Epiphanes. There was a, a cadre of Jews who wa- were for the Hellenization of Israel.

David: Yeah, the Greekification.

Seth: The Greekification of Israel, and a whole bunch of Jews who resisted that temptation.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: They were considered the wise ones, the faithful ones.

David: Right.

Seth: And this happened. And this all happened.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um-

David: You have the, the, the, the Hellenistic Jews became the Sadducees.

Seth: And then-

David: And then you had the Essene community. Maybe those are the wise ones. Maybe it's the Pharisees, you know, maybe it's the Zealots.

Seth: People who are trying to hold on to the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... biblical law.

David: Maybe it's the people at the beginning of Luke who were waiting for the day of the Lord, you know?

Seth: Right.

David: You had people who did not sell out. [laughs]

Seth: So all this-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to say that Daniel is being given a glimpse of human history leading up to the time of Jesus and really on the heels of the Roman Empire.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: What I didn't know that was on the li- that was... It, this is, it feels, seems like such a specific history-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that I'm almost uncomfortable with it.

David: Mm.

Seth: Right? It's like I, Revelation I get. Craziness until the end of time.

David: [laughs]

Seth: You know, like, it's crazy out there. This seems so specific-

David: Mm

Seth: ... as to be almost unprecedented within the Bible. Does that make sense? Like, it feels unprecedented. I-

David: I, yeah, I think I, I think I get that. Let me, let me ask you what you mean by that 'cause I think what you're talking about is like, I think we, we kinda grew up, uh, assuming that this was all like, how crazy all the language is, and all the beasts and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... how obscure everything is, it must be still in the future.

Seth: Right. And I think-

David: And it must, and it must be crazy.

Seth: Yeah, and I think even, like, my understanding of, like, the Antichrist-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... this figure at the end of time comes from a lot of these images in the Book of Daniel.

David: Right.

Seth: Like-

David: He, he does the abomination.

Seth: Yeah, or even, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the ultimate apocalypse. This feels like it's describing all those things.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Um, it's surprising to me that it feels so earthly.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: And it's like, oh, and this politician will come and overtake that politician.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And this politician will put a pig on the altar, and that'll divide the Jewish people among the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And then Jesus will come.

David: And I think one thing that's happening here is, one of the points that Isaiah himself makes, is that, um, God speaks through Isaiah to say that he will make known what is about to come to pass through the Prophet Isaiah.

Seth: Okay.

David: In short, he's going to tell the future-

Seth: Right

David: ... through Isaiah. Why? Well, God says through Isaiah, "To show you that I'm in charge."

Seth: Hmm.

David: And isn't that what's on the line in apocalyptic literature?

Seth: Right.

David: And isn't that what's on the line in Daniel itself?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Is, who is God?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Who is God of Gods? Is it Nebuchadnezzar? Is it Babylon's gods? Uh, 'cause God's house is laying in ruins. How is God really in charge?

Seth: Right.

David: And he's like, "I'm gonna show you I'm in charge by showing you what's about to happen. I'm gonna show you that I am the God of history."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Boots on the ground, earthly re-... dirty history

Seth: And I get that message-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... as somebody benefiting from this hundreds of years after Daniel received the prophecy.

David: We get to look back and be like, [gasps] "It was right."

Seth: God is the... God isn't just the God of Israel, he's the God of history.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Daniel wouldn't necessarily have known this.

David: He would've had to have faith that these things would come to pass as they'd been revealed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And which is amazing.

Seth: It-

David: I mean, it's the same thing, like we're told we have a privileged position. We're told that everybody else looked forward-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of something... at something they would never see, and that they died before they saw. You go read Hebrews 11, it's gonna tell you that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: In faith, they looked forward, and they died in that faith. And so, like Daniel, same thing. He was looking forward to something.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We even said, like, whenever he was praying toward the temple-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, during Darius's decree, that he was looking forward to a time when it would be rebuilt.

Seth: If I'm Daniel then-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and I'm like, "Okay, God, I guess you've got history figured out."

David: Yeah, you've got the plan.

Seth: "I don't have proof that that will actually happen yet, but I trust you."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Okay. I guess it goes back to what we said, like one of the pur- y- like you said it, like the purpose of apocalyptic literature in general is, who's the God above all the gods?

David: Right.

Seth: And who's the God above all the nations? It's clearly this God-

David: Mm

Seth: ... according to the prophecies that he's giving Daniel. But also, I think in both the idea of 70 weeks-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and 2,300 days, is there's this really clear announcement that there is a specific time of deliverance.

David: Right. You have these loose, beastly images where, oh, you've got a ram who's running north, south, east and west, he's going crazy. Then you've got a goat who just keeps on growing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, you know, you've got all this stuff, but at some point there's a number on it.

Seth: Right, 'cause-

David: And those days are numbered.

Seth: Yeah, that, that feels like the most import- if I'm Daniel, and don't know if history's gonna play out, I trust God will work out history-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... but I don't have that proof yet-

David: Right

Seth: ... like I have it.

David: Right.

Seth: All I've got is really that definitive number.

David: Right.

Seth: 70 weeks, and it's over.

David: At some time, the clock will run out on these empires.

Seth: Yeah.

David: At some time, temple worship will be restored, and the abomination which causes desolation will be done away with.

Seth: Right.

David: Yes.

Seth: So I'm like, "Oh, okay."

David: It's not forever.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause I think if you're an exilic Jew who has lost their temple, an easy question is, "Is this forever?"

Seth: Right.

David: "Is this forever now?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: And the fixed number says no.

Seth: No, it's not.

David: Yeah.

Seth: There will be empire after empire after empire this, and that's... I mean, Daniel even says his flesh-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the... his face goes pale, and he's like-

David: "This is too much"

Seth: ... "This is too m- I can't wait that long."

David: Right.

Seth: But God's people won't fail. There is a decreed time of the end-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... where God's people will be raised back up again.

David: That's right.

Seth: That's the hope of Daniel vision in-

David: Yes

Seth: ... Daniel 8, and at the end of Daniel 9.

David: Yeah, and I think, and I wanna keep talking about numbers, but real quick, I was just thinking about com- comparative genres-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of how Hebraic apocalyptic literature is riffing on Mesopotamian apocalyptic literature-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that if the majority of Mesopotamian apocalyptic literature is recounting past history-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... through current prophecy-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and saying, "Oh, the battle was like the beast-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... that rose out of the sea," and everything like that. And so therefore, we prove that the Babylonian god is god of gods.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But then the Hebrews' God says, "Oh, okay, yeah, you can describe past events."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, "Oh, it's really nice to be able to claim that you won after you've won. Good for you."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "You know what I can do? I can look at beastly empires-

Seth: Mm

David: ... know they'll rise up, and know that I will still win at the end." Like, what a huge move of God to say, "I don't have to have won the battle in the past to brag about it. I know I'm going to win in the future, and I fixed the day." Like, what a shocking riff on apocalyptic literature-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to claim not past victories, but-

Seth: But-

David: ... future certainties.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah. It also makes me a little less... I care a little bit less about the details of the dream, the vision.

David: Mm. Why?

Seth: Like, it's a great encouragement to me now-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that I can look back and like, oh, God predicted Persia, and Media, and Greece-

David: Right

Seth: ... and Rome, and the-

David: Wow

Seth: ... Maccabean Revolt. Uh, wow, amazing.

David: How faith-building.

Seth: How-

David: God speaks. He's right. People can listen.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Wow, this is cool.

Seth: Yeah. Daniel knew none of that.

David: Right.

Seth: All he knew was a day was coming-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... where God would come. And it's like, oh, so if the interpretation ends up being different than that, Daniel would've known. [laughs] You know?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, all he has is the confidence of a day, and The Book of Daniel is famously difficult to interpret.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: What we've just described as the period between Persia and Rome, scholars debate. Other people say this is about the end of time into a future anti-Christ. Some people say it's about different kings. Some... You know, like, and there's chronology, and people debate this thing.

David: Right.

Seth: The fact that the numbers are there-

David: Right

Seth: ... tell me something more important than the details of the kings and the visions and who moves when, right?

David: Right, or even what the number indicates ultimately.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The fact that the number exists at all-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the fact that the time of the empires is numbered at all-

Seth: Right

David: ... is more important than what the number is.

Seth: Yes.

David: Now, we're not saying what the number is is unimportant.

Seth: It's not. No, or-

David: Or even that the fact that history plays out the way that-

Seth: No

David: ... is described here.

Seth: Those-

David: Those are both marvelous things.

Seth: Right.

David: We're saying that there is something kinda cooler happening here. That is the fact that, oh, the evil empire's days are numbered.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Now, we can talk about what the numbers are and what they mean, but let's not get lost in the weeds.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Let's remember that there's good news right there in the fact that there is a number at all.

Seth: Right, and then that means now me, as a man who does not know when Jesus will return-

David: Right

Seth: ... is in the same position as Daniel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: I could get a new book of Daniel-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... describing all the future conflicts until-Jesus comes back and it starts naming kingdoms and nations I've never heard of before. I'd be like, "Well, that's cool." But what would really be powerful for me is like, "No, but after 70 weeks, after 2,300 days, after a time, times, and half a time-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... it will end."

David: Right.

Seth: "The spiritual powers, the empires will fall-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... a new kingdom will reign, and I will be with my people once again."

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's, like, good.

David: Yeah. The good news is God has fixed a day for the defeat of evil and the coming of His kingdom.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's just good news-

Seth: It is

David: ... is that, that this cycle of beastly empires attacking each other's horns and destroying God's people and letting God's people build back up only to tear them down again, this evil cycle is going to end.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's really good news. 'Cause a lot of times, especially, especially on this side of history, on this side of Daniel-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... looking back, it's like, cool, that ended, but it's still going on.

Seth: Right.

David: More beasts have risen up out of the chaotic waters-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... more kingdoms have been toppled down, more saints of the holy ones have been martyred. Is this ever gonna end? And it's really good news to know that the days are numbered.

Seth: The days are numbered. [gentle music] Okay then, speaking of numbers, what on earth do the numbers mean? [laughs]

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: So we-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... we've got-

David: The million-dollar question, or the million-dollar bestseller question.

Seth: Yeah.

David: [laughs]

Seth: I mean, everybody has an opinion about-

David: Yes

Seth: ... what the numbers mean.

David: Yeah.

Seth: 2,300 in Daniel 8, and seemingly the same period described-

David: Described by the 70 weeks

Seth: ... by 70 weeks or 70 sevens.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So people say 490 years, um, often.

David: Right.

Seth: So how, how do, how do we understand those vastly different numbers to what I think-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... refer to the same event?

David: Right.

Seth: And then not even counting the numbers will come to soon-

David: Right

Seth: ... like 1,290, uh, 1,335-

David: [laughs] Right

Seth: ... a time, times, and half a time. Like w-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... there's more numbers to come in the Book of Daniel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: What are the numbers getting at?

David: Yeah. Well, I think one thing that we need to remember, which you've been really good at reminding me of off-air, is Daniel has already taught us how to approach mysteries like this. The Book of Daniel itself as literature that we walk through-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... has already prepared us for moments where we scratch our head and go, "What on earth does 2,300 mean?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause-

Seth: Is that a literal 2,300 days-

David: Right

Seth: ... until, until Antiochus Epiphanes comes? Is that a spiritual 2,300 days?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Or is it half that because an evening and morning-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... are actually one day, and so it's half that number, so it's 1,150.

David: Yeah. Right. It's not... I think the, the first step in this process is to remember, like, the story from Daniel 5, which was the mene, mene, tekel, and parsin.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? And no one knew what it meant. But the point is, God did write on the wall.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David: And it was about numbers.

Seth: It was about, yeah, about something being numbered, weighed, found wanting, and judged.

David: Right. And so the, the, the, the f- the fact was that eventually a man of God was raised up who gave such a blatantly clear and obviously true explanation of what-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... mene, mene, tekel, and parsin meant that everyone, like, hit themselves on the head and was like, "Oh, of course that's what it means."

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's so obvious now with retrospect-

Seth: Right

David: ... that at some point we might have to be okay with mene, mene, tekel, and parsin, like, that being our 2,300.

Seth: Mm.

David: Like, we might have to be okay with maybe not knowing perfectly what the 2,300 was, and maybe we can now 'cause we're on this side of history. I don't know.

Seth: Right.

David: But the point, at least for Daniel's age, was, like, there's new writing on the wall, and you might not know until a future revelation-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... what that meant, and then you'll hit yourself on the head and be like, "Now I see how 2,300 and 70 weeks go together."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "That makes total sense."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But the, the point wasn't to unravel The Da Vinci Code and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... do some national treasure thing where you're-

Seth: Right

David: ... following the, the plot to figure out-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the hidden code. It's meant to, I think, get at what we're talking about here, which is number one, the evil kingdom's days are numbered, and number two, that, uh, God has set that time, and so you can trust Him in it.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That the writing is on the wall.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Do you trust the one who's done it? Will you humble yourself under that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or not?

Seth: And I think just to go along with this idea of, like, well, there's a Belshazzar principle at work-

David: Right

Seth: ... where it's like we have a mess of numbers-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... just like there's a mess of letters on the wall of Belshazzar's temple.

David: Right.

Seth: And it took an interpreter-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... a son of man, a man in whom the spirit of the gods dwelt-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to finally come and explain them so clearly that the king who was just prophesied to die by those words accepted the fate of the words.

David: [laughs] Right.

Seth: So it's like I have, in all my study of this, dozens of hours at this point-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... I have not found a synchronization between the 2,300-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the 70 weeks, the 1,335-

David: Right

Seth: ... the time, times, and half a time that makes-

David: That makes you just go, "Oh, it's so obvious"

Seth: "It's so obvious." And, like, part of me just like, maybe one day it will.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, like, I've gotten the point of Daniel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Daniel as a book is, the meaning, the hope, the fact that God is in control over the pantheon of gods, that God controls history, that He is coming on a determined day, all that's clear to me.

David: Yeah.

Seth: All the details are less clear.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But one day there will be someone who comes and tells me, and, and I'll, I'll face palm myself. Like, remember that podcast we recorded?

David: Like, ugh-

Seth: We were-

David: ... it's so clear now. We were dead wrong

Seth: ... we were, we were dead wrong. [laughs]

David: Yeah, totally. And there, and therein lies the point, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Why, we asked the question why, why is it good news that God would use apocalyptic literature? Why is it good news that God would use obscure numbers? And I think it's because, let's go back to the Belshazzar principle, the Belshazzar story-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in Daniel 5, what should Belshazzar's reaction have been to-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the writing on the wall?Humility.

Seth: Humility What does it mean? I don't know, but there's clearly a higher power at work-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that I need to submit to.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We should be humbled by 2300-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and go, "I don't know."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "But God knows, and that's so good that God knows and I don't-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and that He's in charge and I'm not." Like, the number 2300 could prove the point that He's God and I'm not.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He knows and I don't. And that's okay, and that's actually the point is to, is to, like, fall down on the ground with Daniel and be like, "I don't understand, Gabriel." [laughs]

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: And that's the point, is to fall down with Daniel and just not get it, and I think we're not comfortable with that.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We-

David: I want a- I want better answers.

Seth: Right. And it's like, man, the best answer you could get is to humble yourself before the Lord. [laughs] Like, it's-

David: Right

Seth: ... what other, what more important point could Daniel be making-

David: And if I'm gonna-

Seth: ... than humble yourself before God?

David: ... spend my life doing one of two things-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... either unraveling the mystery of how 2300 and 13 and-

Seth: Right

David: ... uh, t- work together or spending those hours humbling myself-

Seth: Oh

David: ... I think they'd be better spent humbly.

Seth: They'd be better spent.

David: And I'm like, you know, I could be wrong. Somebody else could be right.

Seth: Right.

David: And I'll thank God on the last day. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know? I want-

Seth: At least I'll have spent my years humbling myself-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... under the God who knew what 2300 meant when I didn't.

David: Right.

Seth: And that's the point.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I think that's what we wanna get at. Okay, so the last big thread that we've opened that we haven't got to pull entirely is the abomination, the desolation.

David: Yeah.

Seth: All of this stuff I think is pointing to one thing, and-

David: Antiochus Epiphanes-

Seth: Well-

David: ... of the Maccabees?

Seth: ... or no, no, uh, less, less historical and more-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... conceptual.

David: Okay.

Seth: And I think it all pulls on, if you go back to the very introduction of the podcast on Daniel and-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... chapter one, is there's this theme and this latent hope around when will the temple be rebuilt. Because a temple-

David: Right

Seth: ... has been destroyed. Daniel 1, temple's gone.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And now Daniel's asking-

David: Daniel 6, he prays towards the desolated temple.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: And it's like w- and, and this holy man inside of this vision asks, "When's it gonna be over? When are the sacrifices and the offerings and the incense gonna come back to the temple? When is this desolation gonna be over?" And that is what's on the line right now.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I think what's really cool is we, we start to get some answers, and Daniel doesn't get to see the full picture. He gets 2300. He gets 70 weeks. He gets the-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... obscure answer. We get the really clear answer from Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Right, because basically you're, what you're saying is sacrifices stop for a period of time.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Then the temple's rebuilt, but that's kinda all the information we get.

David: That's right.

Seth: And-

David: And it seems like there might even be another abomination-

Seth: On the horizon

David: ... on the horizon, which we, we, we read earlier in 11.

Seth: Yeah. L- yeah, and then what, so what you're saying is this new temple, this is Jesus? Or are you saying-

David: I'm saying that the fate of the temple at the end of Daniel seems to be somewhat undecided.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that what's on the line for Daniel is when will the sacrifices of the temple be restored so that the world doesn't come to an end. [laughs]

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And he's so concerned, rightfully so, about the rebuilding of the temple, the reconstituting of its worship, um, and wants to know, like, "Are we ever gonna get to go home? Are we ever gonna be able to-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... dwell with God again?"

Seth: Right.

David: "Is the universe ever gonna start spinning again inside the cosmic temple?" And, um, those questions don't get answered in Daniel.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: They get sealed up at the end, and we'll talk about that more later on another podcast. But for now, I think it's interesting to note that all of this language gets hyper pulled on by Jesus himself in what's known as the Olivet Discourse.

Seth: Okay.

David: And this is that famous and controversial passage of scripture where Jesus talks about what we might call the end of time. He talks about the coming of the Son of Man.

Seth: Yeah, he quotes from Daniel all over the place-

David: All over the place

Seth: ... in this place, and he makes mention of the des-

David: Of the, of the abomination that causes desolation, yeah.

Seth: So, so far we've talked about the abomination of desolation as a fixed historical fact in past time.

David: Right, when, when Grecian Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed the pig.

Seth: And so now we have Jesus talking about it again.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Talking about a future time.

David: Yep.

Seth: So what that makes me automatically wonder is like, well, aren't the other interpretations of Daniel correct then? That Daniel isn't about Greece, but it's actually about a future day coming when a big Antichrist will come and do the bad thing-

David: Right

Seth: ... all at once. Like, that's like, that's the other option on the table-

David: Uh, yeah

Seth: ... for the Book of Daniel.

David: Right.

Seth: So isn't Jesus repeating that then? Isn't he saying like, "Oh, look, there's a future desolation."

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: "Oh, if I put the desolation onto An- Antiochus, I don't agree with Jesus. That can't be right."

David: Uh, right.

Seth: Right?

David: No, uh, yeah, I think that's a really, a really good observation, and I think what Jesus is doing is he is being an expert in apocalyptic literature.

Seth: Okay.

David: He's a genius. [laughs]

Seth: Yes. [laughs]

David: He is, he is showing and, and, and doing apocalyptic literature so well because apocalyptic literature stacks meaning on top of events and says that events and their, um, pictures and metaphors all repeat themselves and keep on-

Seth: Right

David: ... turning over and over again. And he's like, "Do you remember what happened with the abomination that caused desolation? You guys know. You guys know."

Seth: The end of the world that was prophesied in Daniel.

David: "That happened."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "But you guys have rebuilt from that." Right?

Seth: Right.

David: "There's a new temple now."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He w- like, he's standing in front of it when he's making these prophecies in Matthew-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and in Mark.

Seth: Yeah, uh, yeah, Matthew 24, Jesus left the temple and was walking his way.

David: Right. There it is.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: It's right there. So we've moved on, and now there's a new temple that sacrifices are going.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And the, something interesting happens. The, the disciples of Jesus, they're marveling at the temple, and they're oogling and awgling over it, and they're like, "Oh, the stones are so pretty. We love them." And then Jesus stops and says, "Oh yeah? Well, not one stone's gonna be left upon another, and it's gonna all fall down." It's like, "Whoa, downer."

Seth: Okay.

David: And then they ask Jesus, "When is that going to happen?"

Seth: What-

David: "And what will be the signs?"

Seth: Uh, interesting language choice. What will be the signs of your coming?And of the end of the age. Same words used in Daniel-

David: That's right

Seth: ... to describe Greece and the first desolation-

David: Right

Seth: ... of the temple.

David: They understand that when Jesus says the temple's gonna be destroyed, they understand that he is talking about a repeat of the themes that Daniel set up.

Seth: Hmm.

David: That they know-

Seth: Another historical event.

David: Another historical event that's gonna be like the end of time because the temple's going to be destroyed, and it's going to be accompanied by what they're calling the coming of the Son of Man.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: Okay.

David: So that's what's on the line when Jesus talks about all of these crazy apocalyptic images of the moon turning to blood and the sun being dark and the stars falling from the sky, and all these things that have confounded Biblical exegetes for centuries [laughs] and continue to confound us today. Uh [laughs] but-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... we have to understand what's on the line here. Jesus is talking about when is the temple going to be destroyed.

Seth: You know, it's interesting, in verse 36 of Matthew 24, uh, "But about that day or hour, no one knows."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "The numbers are confusing."

David: Yep.

Seth: "Not even the angels in heaven." And at the very end of the Book of Daniel, the angels ask when this is gonna happen. When we get that number 2,300, it's because-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... an angel asks-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... for the number of days.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, not even the Son knows, but only the God who lives in heaven, only the Father.

David: Only the God of gods, yeah.

Seth: So interesting, just like all those say... I'm, I'm just hearing a ton of Daniel-

David: A ton of Daniel

Seth: ... in Matthew 24.

David: That's right. And I think that's because Jesus is talking about the completion of that cycle, that Daniel's all about when is the temple going to be restored, when is the final temple going to come where the sacrifices will burn and the incense will go up and we will be with God forever, and our place with him-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... will be secure.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And Jesus is saying, in a sense, two very seemingly contradictory things.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's saying, well, it's, the temple's gonna be destroyed again.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But in that destruction of the temple is going to come the hope of Daniel.

Seth: Hmm.

David: Which is weird.

Seth: Because when he says, "I'm gonna tear down this to- this temple, and then three days later I'm gonna build it back up again"-

David: Right

Seth: ... he's saying the temple that Daniel hoped would be rebuilt and would symbolize the reunion of God and, God and man-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in the place of God in Israel and Jerusalem. That-

David: Isn't this one.

Seth: Isn't this one. It's the one inside me.

David: Right. Jesus constantly says that he's the temple. Um, and, and so what Daniel was looking forward to-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... you know, and what we even hinted at in the Daniel 6 podcast, whenever he was looking and praying toward the desolated temple-

Seth: Right

David: ... in a sense, he was praying toward Jesus.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This anointed Son of Man who would come and draw all nations to himself. And so Jesus is saying, in a time you don't know, the end of the world is coming, and I am going to come. Through my sovereign control of the world, the Son of Man is going to come and destroy the temple.

Seth: Riding on the clouds [laughs].

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This happened-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in 70, the year 70 AD. This happened.

Seth: Right. Uh, yeah, just like Antiochus Epiphanes.

David: Yep.

Seth: Another desolation of the temple occurred in AD 70, you're right-

David: Right. Yeah, AD

Seth: ... under Emperor Titus.

David: Yeah. And it gets desolated, and it's not been rebuilt since.

Seth: Hmm.

David: I mean, that's the, that's the amazing thing.

Seth: Hmm.

David: And, like, the heartbreaking thing for the Jewish nation is that it's not, it's still not been rebuilt. They are still outside the Wailing Wall, waiting for it to be rebuilt.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And Jesus is saying, that's not the final temple. The final temple that-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... offers the final perpetual sacrifice, that offers the place where God and man can be together forever, where you're free from exile and you can finally come home and you can be with God, is not in a building where-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... animals are sacrificed. It's in me. I am the final temple. Why? Because I am the one who was sacrificed. I am the one who is the final sacrifice, the final incense, the final offering to God. You don't have to continually do it anymore. I've put an end to the unceasing operation of the temple that constantly has to atone and re-atone for sins. I've done it once and for all, and now I reign forever above all principalities and princes.

Seth: Hmm.

David: And I'm the final temple.

Seth: Why is the idea that the temple won't be rebuilt, but be resurrected... Like, you know, like, why is the temple in a person good news for a man in exile?

David: Oh.

Seth: 'Cause you've named a lot of great reasons, like the te- the, the, the, the, the ceaseless sacrifices are over. One sacrifice final, final for all. Amazing.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But for a man in exile who just wants to go back home-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... to be with his people, to be with God in his place again, why is, like, the fact that the temple isn't the place anymore, but it's-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... a human, one like a son of man-

David: Right

Seth: ... why is that so important? Like-

David: Well, I mean-

Seth: You know?

David: Yeah. I mean, think about the history of Israel. Think about the cycle of evil empires that Daniel depicts, and think about how over and over again how stacked these images are in Daniel, that no matter how many times the temple gets rebuilt, it seems to be threatened again by another desolation.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: As long as the temple is geopolitical [laughs] and is made of brick and stone-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... it's gonna be under threat. It can't be eternal.

Seth: Right.

David: It can't be safe. But when it's in Jesus, who is resurrected high above all principalities, like, it's safe, it's secure. It can't be threatened by any earthly empire. And beyond that, it can come and dwell with you.

Seth: Hmm.

David: Because Jesus is now in us.

Seth: Right.

David: And he says that we as Christians, embodied by his Spirit, are now built brick by brick together, and we now, as the Church, f- form a new temple.

Seth: Hmm.

David: That we are now the locus of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: We are where God dwells. God dwells with and in and among us.

Seth: Hmm.

David: And so that's really good news for somebody in exile who's like, "I can't get to the temple because it doesn't exist." And Jesus says, "No, but I will build my temple among you."

Seth: Hmm.

David: I'm with you.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's such good news. I've written you... I've written myself into your story where you are.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's just such good news.

Seth: Well, then let me try to make this make sense for me personally.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay. Because I'm... My mind feels caught up in dreamland, vision land, exile 2,000 years ago, 400 years of history squeezed down into four beasts. I'm, my mind is everywhere.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But I wanna land on the good news of a temple in me-

David: Mm

Seth: ... for a man in exile.

David: Yeah.

Seth: For a person, a human out of sorts with the world around him. Um, I'm not home. I want to be home. I want to be with the Lord.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: I am exhausted by the brokenness I, I see. I'm tired of working for the man. You know, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... for being a cog in the machine of Babylon.

David: Don't you wish you could just fly to Israel and God was actually living in a building, and you could go be under his theophanic, theocratic rule and just be like, "Hey, God, I'm here."

Seth: Right. Make-

David: "You're here on Earth"

Seth: ... make things right again.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Make, make things the way they were supposed to be.

David: Wouldn't that be great if you could actually go and live in a country here on Earth where God dwelt and ruled perfectly?

Seth: Yeah.

David: That would be really nice.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But we're in exile. He doesn't, he's not doing that right now physically-

Seth: Right

David: ... except through his people.

Seth: Yeah. And I just find myself frequently weeping over the fact that that doesn't exist yet.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that I have to wait so long for it-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or seemingly long. There's a date.

David: Right.

Seth: 2,300 days, 70 weeks.

David: It's, it's fixed. Yeah.

Seth: But it's so far away.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And the hope of a temple in me and a temple in the people of God is that for those moments when I'm crushed by the weight of the beasts-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... when I'm crushed by the cogs of Babylon, is that I can look out among my brothers and sisters in Christ and find a glimpse of the Kingdom of God here and now.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I can find a moment of the presence of God, the image of God in the person-

David: Mm

Seth: ... across from me, that I can look inside of me and know that the Spirit of God that revealed the mysteries that encouraged Daniel in Babylon are also available to me. Like, is that, like, is this getting near what the hope of an internal temple-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is for a person in exile? [chuckles] Like...

David: Yeah. No, I, I think so. Man, there's something so m-mystical-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to it, too, that we have to, like, somehow step back out of the Enlightenment and the-

Seth: Mm

David: ... Scientific Age and take Jesus at his word in the, at the end of John where-

Seth: Mm

David: ... he's talking to his disciples before going to the cross, and he's like, "I'm gonna come, and I'm gonna make my home in you, and the Holy Spirit's gonna be there, and God's gonna be there, and we're gonna live together here on planet Earth inside of you." We, we cannot possibly expand that language far enough to ju- like, to do justice for the mystery and the magnitude of what Jesus is talking about there. He's saying, like, there once, there once was a time that inside the tabernacle, inside the temple, the Shekinah, the illuminating, if you saw it in the wrong context, you would die kinda glory [chuckles] lived, right, like, dwelt and was enthroned. God, you could be... Like, you could, you could go see him, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, that was real on Earth, and he's like, "That is, like, gonna come into you and be with you and live in you." And there's something that w-we've suppressed, I suppress, I grieve the Holy Spirit, [chuckles] you know, and I just diminish what that means-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and that I am his home and that he delights to dwell with me, and that there's a reality to that. Um, but that's, like, the, some of the best news of the gospel [chuckles] is that, "Behold, I am with you always, even to the" what? [chuckles]

Seth: End of the age.

David: End of time-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or the end of the age. Um, that we're not alone, that he does live with us. But then I think there's another side to it, too, where we are invited, like, to be Daniel in a way we don't wanna be. 'Cause you, I think, early in the podcast did a really good job of picturing Daniel as kind of this sad, tragic figure-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... who, "Great, I know that there's a rough sketch of some kingdoms coming down, and I'm glad that their fixed end is coming, but I'm not gonna see the end of it. But I know that their end will come, and that there will be an eternal kingdom set up, that l-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that little uncut stone that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... will grow into a mountain."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "And I will be in that kingdom." Um, and at some point, Revelation to us, which pulls on all this same language-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is asking us to step into the same thing. It, again, Revelation shows a cycle of empires, a lot of which is talking about leading up to the s- the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. But then there's this picture at the end, which is God coming and making his temple here on Earth and actually living with us again.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we can see him face to face, and he'll wipe away our tears and take away disease, and there'll be no threat, and we'll live with him. And that hope, Paul says in Romans 8, saves us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, saves, pulls us out of that dark, crushed under empire feeling, and it's not necessarily... I don't wanna, I'm trying not to diminish the present reality of the Holy Spirit.

Seth: Right.

David: That is such good news, and I think we don't do justice to it. But there's this future hope in the coming of Jesus to live with us and establish his eternal dynasty, and that hope can save us.Even from the grip and the crushing of Babylon, even if nothing changes in our current situation, just that we know that there is a time, a time, and half a time, and then Jesus will come. A day has been set, even if no one knows what it is. He's coming, and it's good news.

Seth: Yeah. That is good news. I'd, I'd be pushing the limits of my ability to understand the Book of Daniel's prophecies by continuing to delve deeper into-

David: Yeah, same

Seth: ... the mysteries of Daniel-

David: Same

Seth: ... 8 and 9. There's more out there. Like, I hope we've done a decent job of modeling the open-handedness with some of these interpretations. Like, we feel pretty convinced of what we're saying, but there's some deep mysteries here. There's pe- good scholars that disagree with us.

David: Yep. At the end of the day, we wanna be humbled by what we don't know.

Seth: Right. And-

David: Rather than proud in what we think we know.

Seth: Jesus is coming back.

David: That's the great news.

Seth: On a day.

David: On a day. It's fixed.

Seth: He will come.

David: And we're gonna look back and go, "Oh, of course that's when he's coming." [laughs]

Seth: And so go study, delve into the mysteries-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... see Jesus in the numbers if you can get there.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And we'll see you next time then in Daniel 9, I believe.

David: Yeah, we're gonna kinda loop back. We jumped to the end of 9, but we need to loop back because there's this whole thing about Daniel starts reading Jeremiah.

Seth: Yes.

David: Which is just cool when two books of the Bible interact with each other that way.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's funny to-

Seth: You're cool if you're us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's cool. Because, I mean, not, not everybody thinks-

David: No

Seth: ... that's cool, but I think it's cool.

David: I think it's cool to think of Daniel picking up the scroll of Jeremiah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, oh, Daniel read the Bible. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] That's right.

David: Cool.

Seth: [laughs]

David: And, like, and then he, like, put it into practice.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's really interesting.

Seth: So-

David: So we'll talk about that. I'm excited to talk about that. So we'll-

Seth: Next week.

David: Yeah, we'll see you next week. [outro music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]

Related Resources

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The End of the World in Daniel 8 and 9: Rams, Goats, and the Hope of a Numbered Day

Show Notes

Understanding Apocalyptic Literature and Its Purpose

Why Apocalyptic Literature Is Good News

The Vision of the Ram and the Goat

Historical Fulfillment and the Abomination of Desolation

The Mystery and Hope of the Numbers

Jesus as the Final Temple and the Hope for Exiles

Related Resources

Introduction to Daniel

View our devotional on Daniel 1

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Daniel Introduction podcast

Listen to the Daniel 1: A Test of Allegiance podcast

Listen to the Daniel 2: A Statue of Four Kingdoms podcast

Listen to the Daniel 3: A Raging Furnace podcast

Listen to the Daniel 4: Nebuchadnezzar Goes Insane podcast

Listen to the Daniel 5: The Writing on the Wall podcast

Listen to the Daniel 6: The Lion's Den podcast

Listen to the Daniel 7: A Cloud-Riding Son of Man podcast

Listen to the Daniel 8: Rams, Goats, and Abominations podcast

Listen to the Daniel 9: 70 Weeks and a Prayer for Mercy podcast

Listen to the Daniel 10: A Shining Metal Man and the Prince of Persia podcast

Listen to the Daniel 11-12: Not a When, But a Who podcast

Listen to the Daniel Sermon: Only God is in Control podcast